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Thursday, October 18, 2018

Knicks Morning News (2018.02.07)

  • [ESPN] This is what the Porzingis injury means for the Knicks
    (Tuesday, February 06, 2018 11:04:58 PM)

    How big a blow did the Knicks’ future take when Kristaps Porzingis suffered a torn ACL? Here’s what the injury could mean for New York and the All-Star long-term.

  • [ESPN] Knicks’ Porzingis suffers torn ACL, test reveals
    (Tuesday, February 06, 2018 8:58:26 PM)

    An MRI on Knicks All-Star Kristaps Porzingis revealed that he tore the ACL in his left knee when he landed on the foot of Giannis Antetokounmpo following a dunk during Tuesday’s 103-89 home loss to the Bucks.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks lose Porzingis in 103-89 loss to Bucks
    (Tuesday, February 06, 2018 10:18:20 PM)

    NEW YORK (AP) Giannis Antetokounmpo scored 23 points, jumping over Tim Hardaway Jr. for one high-flying slam, and the Milwaukee Bucks beat the New York Knicks 103-89 on Tuesday night in a game that featured a knee injury to Kristaps Porzingis.

  • [SNY Knicks] Reports: Willy Hernangomez seeking trade from Knicks
    (Tuesday, February 06, 2018 9:18:56 PM)

    Knicks C Willy Hernangomez has requested a trade ahead of Thursday’s NBA trade deadline in an effort to seek more playing time.

  • [SNY Knicks] SEE IT: Giannis Antetokounmpo jumps over Tim Hardaway Jr.
    (Tuesday, February 06, 2018 10:50:58 PM)

    Bucks F Giannis Antetokounmpo jumped over Knicks G Tim Hardaway Jr. during the Bucks’ 103-89 win on Tuesday night at Madison Square Garden.

  • [SNY Knicks] Porzingis suffers torn ACL in left knee
    (Tuesday, February 06, 2018 8:21:02 PM)

    Knicks C Kristaps Porzingis left Tuesday night’s game against the Bucks with an injury.

  • [SNY Knicks] Tonight’s game: Bucks vs. Knicks, 7:30 p.m.
    (Tuesday, February 06, 2018 5:38:59 PM)

    With the wheels coming off this season, the New York Knicks host the Milwaukee Bucks on Tuesday night at Madison Square Garden.

  • [SNY Knicks] Hardaway Jr. learned from mistakes, seeking revenge against Bucks
    (Tuesday, February 06, 2018 11:05:28 AM)

    Tim Hardaway Jr. is looking for some revenge as the Bucks come to Manhattan Tuesday night.

  • [NYPost] Porzingis’ season-ending injury crushes fellow NBAers
    (Tuesday, February 06, 2018 10:58:45 PM)

    Knicks fans weren’t the only ones crushed by the news Kristaps Porzingis will miss the rest of the season with a torn ACL. Numerous NBA players shared their shock, anger and sadness Tuesday night, after learning that one of the sport’s youngest and fastest-rising stars would be sidelined for a significant period of time. Porzingis,…

  • [NYPost] Tim Hardaway Jr. avoids serious leg injury after early exit
    (Tuesday, February 06, 2018 7:21:50 PM)

    As if Kristaps Porzingis’ season-ending torn ACL wasn’t bad enough, it could have been worse for the Knicks. Tim Hardaway Jr. may have escaped serious damage when he got kicked by Giannis Antetokounmpo in the lower left leg — the same exact spot in which he suffered a stress reaction. Hardaway limped out with 6:23…

  • [NYPost] Grisly silence as the Knicks’ present and future goes down
    (Tuesday, February 06, 2018 6:48:40 PM)

    The roar was barely out of 19,812 mouths, a dot of delight in a darkening landscape. Kristaps Porzingis had just delivered a genuine poster-ization of Giannis Antetokounmpo (who had one of his own later on), dunking over the Greek Freak. Man, did Madison Square Garden want to let loose there. And in an instant, in…

  • [NYPost] Kristaps Porzingis out for season with torn ACL
    (Tuesday, February 06, 2018 6:06:03 PM)

    “The Franchise’’ is done for the year. A Garden night of horrors came to a sad end when the Knicks announced late Tuesday night that first-time All-Star Kristaps Porzingis has a torn ACL in his left knee. The Knicks didn’t announce a timetable, but the 7-foot-3 Latvian will need surgery and is done for the…

  • [NYPost] Willy Hernangomez: I love New York, but I want to play above all
    (Tuesday, February 06, 2018 5:48:03 PM)

    Willy Hernangomez is ready to leave New York, even if he doesn’t want to. Following a report that Hernangomez’s representatives requested that the Knicks trade the rarely used, second-year center before Thursday’s trade deadline, the 23-year-old spoke before Tuesday night’s 103-89 loss to the Bucks, hoping for any resolution, which results in the big man…

  • [NYPost] Knicks lose much more than a game in nightmare night at MSG
    (Tuesday, February 06, 2018 5:08:36 PM)

    The Knicks without Kristaps Porzingis is a scary thought. It’s an even scarier sight. Providing a preview of what the rest of the season could look like without Porzingis, the Knicks unraveled following the season-ending injury to their franchise player, and dropped their fourth straight game, allowing an early nine-point lead to become a 103-89…

  • [NYPost] Knicks now lose Tim Hardaway Jr. to apparent leg injury
    (Tuesday, February 06, 2018 4:59:15 PM)

    First Kristaps Porzingis, and now Tim Hardaway Jr. The Knicks guard was forced to exit Tuesday’s game against the Bucks after suffering an apparent left leg injury in the fourth quarter. Porzingis left the game earlier with a left knee injury. Hardaway had missed almost six weeks and 20 games with a stress reaction in…

  • [NYPost] Greek Freak posterizes Tim Hardaway with over-the-body dunk
    (Tuesday, February 06, 2018 4:56:37 PM)

    Tim Hardaway Jr., meet the Greek Freak. Bucks star Giannis Antetokounmpo sent Madison Square Garden into a frenzy Tuesday night when he flew over Hardaway to slam home an alley-oop in the third quarter of a 103-89 win over the Knicks. Antetokounmpo took just a couple of steps before making a one-handed grab on the…

  • [NYPost] Knicks GM interested in trading for Magic point guard he drafted
    (Tuesday, February 06, 2018 3:59:03 PM)

    The Magic are open for business, and it’s no surprise Knicks general manager and former Orlando executive Scott Perry has checked in on his former lottery pick, point guard Elfrid Payton, The Post has learned. According to an NBA source who has spoken to Knicks brass, Perry has interest in reuniting with the 23-year-old Payton…

  • [NYPost] Kristaps Porzingis leaves Knicks game with knee injury
    (Tuesday, February 06, 2018 3:26:15 PM)

    Knicks All-Star forward Kristaps Porzingis needed to be helped off the court and brought to the locker room with 8:46 left in the second quarter after he landed awkwardly on a dunk Tuesday at the Garden. Porzingis went up for the right-handed slam as Milwaukee’s Giannis Antetokounmpo outstretched his arm for the block. Porzingis executed…

  • [NYPost] The honeymoon is over, but Knicks’ unicorn still needs time to grow
    (Tuesday, February 06, 2018 3:04:48 PM)

    Every now and again, it’s good to take a look at Kristaps Porzingis’ bio, which reminds you that he was born on Aug. 2, 1995. When Patrick Ewing, to name one, was 22 years and 188 days old — Porzingis’ exact age heading into Tuesday night’s Knicks game with the Bucks — it was Feb….

  • [NYDN] Sports stars, teammates react to Kristaps Porzingis’ ACL injury
    (Tuesday, February 06, 2018 8:14:22 PM)

    The Knicks’ season effectively ended on Tuesday.

  • [NYDN] Porzingis now faces a long road to recovery following torn ACL
    (Tuesday, February 06, 2018 7:17:52 PM)

    The sight of Kristaps Porzingis clutching his left knee in agony and took the air and optimism right out of MSG.

  • [NYDN] Kristaps Porzingis out for season after tearing ACL in left knee
    (Tuesday, February 06, 2018 7:10:14 PM)

    Hold your breath, Knicks fans.

  • [NYDN] Giannis Antetokounmpo jumps over Tim Hardaway Jr. on dunk
    (Tuesday, February 06, 2018 4:52:35 PM)

    As if the Knicks’ night couldn’t get any worse.

  • [NYDN] Willy Hernangomez makes his trade request to Knicks official
    (Tuesday, February 06, 2018 2:32:28 PM)

    There’s no more ambiguity or anonymity surrounding Willy Hernangomez’s preference: he wants out.

  • [NYDN] DN Sports Talk Podcast: All things Knicks with Stefan Bondy
    (Tuesday, February 06, 2018 9:41:19 AM)

    Knicks beat writer and columnist Stefan Bondy (@SBondyNYDN) joins the Popcast this week with the NBA trade deadline just two days away.

  • [NY Newsday] Kristaps Porzingis’ injury more heartbreak for troubled franchise
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 12:19:24 AM)

    So this is how it all ends?

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks’ Kristaps Porzingis tears left ACL in loss to Bucks
    (Tuesday, February 06, 2018 11:50:53 PM)

    Kristaps Porzingis tore the ACL in his left knee in the Knicks’ 103-89 loss to the Bucks on Tuesday night, the team said. His season is likely over.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks’ Willy Hernangomez prepared to be traded by deadline
    (Tuesday, February 06, 2018 7:36:00 PM)

    Willy Hernangomez is prepared to leave New York and his best friend Kristaps Porzingis.

  • [NYTimes] Kristaps Porzingis Tears A.C.L., Crippling the Knicks
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 6:07:13 AM)

    The All-Star forward landed awkwardly after a dunk in the Knicks’ loss to the Milwaukee Bucks on Tuesday. He will miss the remainder of the season.

  • 394 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2018.02.07)

    1. alsep73

      Jumping over to the new thread of sadness:

      Let’s hope that it all works out! :)

      Look where that’s gotten us this century, Brian. :)

      I’m with you. If it was, say, a bad fracture that would sideline him for the rest of the season but give him much of the offseason to rehab and get healthy, I’d be Mr. Silver Lining. There are definitely some benefits to this, as it should force clarity on both the FO and Jeff about what to do for the rest of this season, and maybe even in the offseason (though it sounds like Perry was already aiming for 2019 free agency, given the cap situation), but the risk that KP’s career could be altered by this one makes it hard to care much that Frank and Burke are likely to play more, and that the team might be more open to dealing Lee.

    2. Frank

      Honestly there is zero silver lining about KP’s injury with this current front office, which does not believe in tanking. They may have no choice about tanking this season since we don’t have any talent, but I would not count on them tanking next season too, which is really what we should be doing if KP is likely going to miss half the year at least.

      The way I would go forward —
      trade all the vets on this team for young players and picks even if we need to take back contracts that go through next season.

      tankapalooza the rest of this year.

      fire Hornacek and find the next Kenny Atkinson – someone who has a really strong record of developing players.

      tankapalooza in 2018-19 also. That’s why taking contracts this trade deadline matters not as long as they don’t go into 2019-20.

      Hope to God that KP comes back strong. I have faith that the surgery and rehab will go well, but that’s an entire year of working on his skills that goes out the window – he’ll be spending his energy rehabbing instead.

      If KP looks good, give him whatever contract he wants as a restricted FA – he’ll get a max offer from someone so ideally the Knicks come forward with a submax offer right off the bat before he signs an offer sheet we have to match.

      Play for 2019-20. Don’t trade Noah if it costs ANY assets at all (ie. we’re not trading Noah). Stretch him that offseason if necessary to gain cap room.

    3. Frank

      Re: tanking this year – there are probably 6 players that I would be ecstatic to get – Doncic, Porter, Trae Young, Jaren Jackson, Bagley, and Deandre Ayton. Not totally sure how I feel about Mohamed Bamba yet. To get to the #6-7 pick we’d have to pass Memphis who has FIVE fewer wins than us. We are going to have to supertank to move into position there.

      Honestly – it’s time for the Jack / Lance / Beasley / Willy / Kanter lineup. Two bigs, Beasley at the 3, and Jarrett Jack taking 18 shots per game.

    4. Hubert

      The fact that all the silver linings revolve around taking stupid decisions off the table for our front office isn’t exactly encouraging.

      This does actually put our best case scenario on the table: now we might get KP on a valuable second contract. If we recovers and we’re paying him $18mm a year instead of $30mm, that’s the kind of deal that we can build around. Or maybe they’ll just throw a max extension at him in one year simply because he recovered from this injury.

      And at least it happened before the trade deadline.

      How stupid does Noah look now? Playing time is about to open up and it ain’t going to him.

    5. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      Begley or another beat writer had a bit on Twitter about how KP had pain in his left knee since his rookie year. This ACL tear was going to happen sooner than later as these injuries are not “random” or freak accidents. ACL tears are due to poor landing technique, and poor landing technique is what rendered Derrick Rose, who should be dominating today’s game in a Bulls uniform, a useless basketball player. It’s going to hamper Dennis Smith Jr’s career, too, because he sucks at landing and has a ridiculous vertical. I’m not worried about if KP will bounce back, I’m worried about if he will continue those hard landings that tear up his knees again. I just sent KP a long DM about how he needs to land better if he wants to save his career, and we need to start a campaign as Knicks fans to raise awareness on landing technique. These joint-stress related injuries are too common in star athletes and they need to become a thing of the past.

      That being said, #RollTank. Let’s get down to a place where we can draft Trae Young and change this franchise. Young needs the Knicks and the Knicks need Young. He’s the perfect fit for our roster and he’s a transformative shooting talent with a great feel for the game. Ironically enough as they’re from the same school, he’s the Baker Mayfield of this draft. If those guys were even an inch taller they’d be locks to go 1st in the draft but their builds have people second guessing the film and statistical profiles. If we pair up Young and Porzingis, it would be like having Nash and Nowitzki 2.0. I think I deserve that as a Knicks fan.

    6. Brian Cronin

      I’m not worried about if KP will bounce back, I’m worried about if he will continue those hard landings that tear up his knees again.

      If it is an injury that you think will likely replicate itself, that how are you not worried about him bouncing back?

    7. Brian Cronin

      As I noted in the last thread (and this is not directed at anyone here, just to anyone who makes this point, as I’ve seen a few people on social media do so), this is not a blessing in disguise. This is horrible news. KP might never really recover from this injury.

      However, if he does fully recover from this injury, then yes, this is one of the best things that could have happened to the Knicks. The issue is that we don’t know how he will recover, so it still terrible news for now.

      Could this be the one time when a situation that calls for luck actually works out for the Knicks? It’s got to eventually, right?

    8. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      I think the front office’s decision is and has been based around star players’ opinions. If the Knicks didn’t have a KP problem (that they inherited from Phil Jackson’s triangle shaped ego), chances are they would feel pressure to win now in order to get KP to commit long term. The fact that they want to get younger, more athletic, and refuse to trade 1RPs shows to me they want to rebuild to some capacity. Now that KP isn’t playing, they know they don’t have enough to make it. They wouldn’t have to pull the plug if KP had a legitimate team around him the way Washington or New Orleans didn’t pull the plug. They know what needs to be done, and now they have room to do it.

      I’m becoming an apologist for this front office, but I do think that we have to wait at least until after Scott Perry mucks up the trade deadline to conclude he’s not good at his job. The only players we’ve been linked to (Hollis-Jefferson and Elfrid Payton) are players I’d like to have on this team. Let’s see what we do and if we land Trae Young.

    9. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      @6 I guess I meant to say I’m not worried about if KP will ever be a franchise level talent going forward. I am, however, worried about if KP will tear it again because he’s not good at landing. Maybe a floor bound 7’3” guy wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world.

    10. Totes McGoats is so G he pours Pepsi in a Coke bottle

      Tough break for KP. His legs were already injury prone, and now he’s probably gonna be out a year just when he was beginning to acclimate himself as the top option. The silver lining, however, is tank time is upon us and those who are torn (like me) no longer have to deal with the angst of choosing a side. Sell sell sell! Lee gets moved! KOQ gets moved! Even Willy can go for the right price! We’re gonna be no good until KP returns at full strength, so we might as well collect assets. Hell, THJ can even be moved if he wants it. Today and tomorrow is now officially Perry time

    11. Hubert

      @7 I get it, and like alsep pointed out in @1, it would be easier to get behind if it were a fracture and not something potentially career altering. I absolutely don’t want this for KP or the Knicks.

      But let’s be honest. We all knew exactly where we were heading before yesterday: years of short-termism and a cap-crippling max contract for a player who absolutely doesn’t deserve one. We were literally discussing trading a #1 pick to Orlando. We were more likely to lose O’quinn for nothing at the end of the year and be stuck with Lee to age 34 than we were to getting the most assets available for them. We have no cap room for years and our draft picks were likely to fall in the range where it’s harder to find impact players. We were on the road to years and years of the same bullshit.

      Today the Knicks are probably going to prioritize a multi year plan for the first time since Donnie Walsh left. We’re going to have a greater chance of landing an impact player in the draft two years in a row. And we have a realistic chance of not giving Porzingis a terrible max contract that would have likely sealed our fate for the next 7 years.

      I dare say we’re in a better place today than we were yesterday. Porzingis isn’t. It sucks for him and I feel for him on a human level. But Porzingis isn’t the Knicks.

    12. Brian Cronin

      If Porzingis comes back even remotely as good as he was this year, he’s getting a max contract, so I don’t think that’s much of a factor. Top rookies get max contracts when they’re resigned. When’s the last time a top rookie didn’t get a max contract from his team when his rookie contract ran out? Embiid got a max after playing, what, half a year? Andrew Wiggins has never had a season as good as Porzingis’ worst year and he got maxed out. It’s just what you do.

    13. Zanzibar

      I don’t know if we should trade for Payton (his defense is a real concern) but if we do, the deal should look like this: Payton and Hezonja for Chicago pick and Baker. Hey Baker’s exorbitant salary makes the #’s match – genius foresight by Mills! We’re taking the risk of a large RFA offer to Payton and Hezonja is an UFA.

      Frank’s handle may be the worst of any 1 guard in the league. He looks like he’s dribbling a beach ball out there and reminds me of Jerian. He also looks more nervous and tentative than a long-tailed cat in a room filled with rocking chairs. Bottom line: he’s probably a long-term project. If you play him at the 2, he could guard the 1 position mitigating defensive issues of Burke and Payton. We wouldn’t be giving up on Frank at the 1 just adjusting our timeline.

    14. Farfa

      I really don’t think Orlando would accept that deal. Maybe if we threw in a conditional first, but we’d be insane to do so

    15. Zanzibar

      Does Orlando want to keep and re-sign Payton? If not, what better deal than that Chicago pick (35ish) and Baker is a team gonna offer them?

    16. Stratomatic says "I don't care what we do at the deadline, as long as we win the deal"

      Any strategy that revolves around management making good decisions may be hopeful delusion. Of course, that may be the only choice we have (to be delusional that is).

      I have no faith in Dolan and Mills and feel certain I am right about them.

      The more I learn about Perry the more convinced I am he’s just another incompetent that has maneuvered himself into MSG fro a big payday and will screw things up for a few years until he’s fired too.

      We need people that evaluate and develop players properly. There’s no one at MSG that falls into that category.

    17. Farfa

      I don’t think he’s incompetent (we have literally no idea of what he is). The fact that he’s so close to Mills frightens more than a little, but it is what it is.

    18. Stratomatic says "I don't care what we do at the deadline, as long as we win the deal"

      While I’m at it, when Hornacek was hired I was pretty optimistic about the selection based on the kinds of things he was saying.

      I’m not anymore.

      It’s hard to be too hard on a coach when he isn’t given much talent to work with and he may be coaching for his job. But at this stage some of the decisions he’s making about playing time seem so bad, I’ve lost faith in him too. I like the idea of stability, but I don’t want it to be with a mediocre coach. Of course that gets back to me prior post. What makes me think buffoons like Dolan, Mills (and probably Perry) will hire a good coach? They’ve had future good coaches in the organization already and let them walk.

    19. Bruno Almeida

      We don’t know yet if Perry is incompetent but we do know Mills is, and he will be heavily involved in any decision because Perry and him are a combo.

      Perry himself has said many times he doesn’t believe in tanking and while he might see this injury as an opportunity to tank this year, he’ll never plan for tanking next year too, which would be the sensible option without Porzingis for some time next year.

      That’s the issue, it could get reeeeally ugly really fast if they plan on building a team that can compete as soon as KP comes back. We might come into a situation where they get desperate for deals and for strengthening the team in the next offseason which can truly be a disaster, specially if KP never recovers fully from the injury and gets a max anyway.

      I don’t think this injury was good in any way, since the fact that it would take a major, potentially career destroying injury to our most promising player to make these clowns realize what we have understood about this team for months now is downright depressing and not good news for the future at all. It’s just the worst fucking thing that could have happened, really.

    20. Max

      @13
      The answer could be Jabari Parker, same injury as KP but 2 times in less then 3 years, he’s due a new contract this summer.

      We’ll see how the Bucks evaluate him and if other teams will try to sneak on him.
      Could be a good measuring stick for KP’s next contract.

      I feel very bad for KP, I hope and wish him that he’ll come back even stronger (even if Pelton’s piece let me down).

    21. Hubert

      Good rookies get max contracts when they’re resigned. When’s the last time a good rookie didn’t get a max contract from his team when his rookie contract ran out?

      Steph Curry, under very similar circumstances. Also Giannis.

      I get what you’re saying about teams historically handing out maxes after rookie deals expire, but the max is so much higher now. The second contract max used to be great value. After rounds of CBA renegotiations, it can now be one of the worst contracts in the NBA.

      The idea that you automatically give a 4th year player $30mm+ a year is going to go out the window sooner or later, because it’s a very, very stupid idea. It was put in the CBA to rewards players like Derrick Rose who win the MVP in their second year, not for guys who have never lead their team to 35 wins.

      Second contract maxes now comprise some of the league’s worst deals. Wiggins and McCollum have awful contracts that are crippling their teams. Embiid is playing extremely well now but that’s still a high risk deal that Colangelo may regret any moment. Those three and Otto Porter are the only ones I can think of currently in the NBA. They’re not being handed out as much as you think. Smart teams aren’t going to hand out $30mm+ to a player just because it’s the max.

    22. Farfa

      What gets me slightly optimistic about KP recovery from injury is that he doesn’t need a lot of athleticism to dominate the game, to be fair. He’s at his best with his feet planted on the ground and he wasn’t exactly fast even before the injury. It’s pretty clear he has to gain some weight, if he’s able, to become a full-fledged center. Obviously, gaining weight on a ACL is not a great thing to do, so it’s about finding the right compromise. Let’s cross our fingers. And give Willy 24 minutes per night, damn.

    23. english_knick

      One other ‘silver linong’ – this may alter what KPs max is actually worth because he’s now all but certain not to qualify for the super max. Means his max is 25% of the cap in year one, not 30%. That’s $5m per year right there.

      I guess we’ll know in 24 hours or so how good this FO is. This team has no route to being good before 2019/20. We should be maxing our draft assets and accumulating young pieces to the maximum degree possible. That means trading ALL the vets that we don’t think will be on the team by then and playing ALL the kids, including some d-league call-ups.

    24. DRed

      That Andrew Wiggins contract issobad even the Lamestream basketball media have started to notice Wiggins isn’t worth the money

    25. english_knick

      I meant silver lining, obviously.

      Also, to those saying it’s too late to tank hard enough to get down to the top 6, remember 2 things. One – we’re also playing for ping pong balls. Even a drop to 9 from 10 makes a marginal difference. Two, remember that most mocks this time last year had Tatum at 8. There’s a lot of time for one or two college guys to go on a year, rise up to 6 or 7 and send Jackson or Bamba to 8 or 9. Every lotto slot we climb has some benefit, even if small. And if we get there by giving Frank and Dotson 30 mins and acquiring some more picks for vets, that also has value.

    26. Farfa

      And if we get there by giving Frank and Dotson 30 mins and acquiring some more picks for vets, that also has value.

      Amen

      (And Willy.)

    27. GoNyGoNyGo

      Let’s be realistic here. This destroyed this year and next. KP will be looking to rush back next December, but we’ll have won 10 games by then and he’ll be told to work on strengthening that knee. He’s out this year and next. So 2 top draft picks, Willy, Frank, Lee, Thomas, Hardaway, Dotson and a 24-yo KP is on the books. If we can sell off anyone for additional picks, let’s do it. Kanter, Lee, Hardaway and O’Quinn can all go and have value. I want picks, picks and more picks.

    28. hoolahoop

      Every time Kp hit the floor I cringed. I always felt it was a matter of time, the way he went down hard on those long, gangly limbs. This is even worse than I expected.

      It’s a sad day. We may have seen the best of KP, and his days in a knicks uniform may be numbered.

    29. Hubert

      That Andrew Wiggins contract issobad even the Lamestream basketball media have started to notice Wiggins isn’t worth the money

      and honestly how long would it have taken for the same thing to happen with Porzingis? He’s got the narrative’s wind at his back now because the Knicks need a star so badly. Take away all the media noise and Porzingis is just a 22 year old inefficient volume scorer who rebounds poorly and never passes. His reputation has been rapidly outpacing his production. He has as much business getting a max contract as Wiggins did.

      Offer him the Giannis extension while he’s rehabbing. 4 years, $100mm. We assume the risk, but it’s a risk worth taking because if he can outproduce that we have a good chance of building a solid team.

    30. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      @32

      Porzingis is overrated but let’s pump the brakes a bit he’s nowhere near as undeserving of a max as Wiggins and he’s basically been a top 40 player at least according to the stats I like most (RPM and PIPM). His defense is really underrated by box score stats. I’d max him and hope he learns how to be more efficient but now that he hurt himself we might not have to max him.

    31. Stratomatic says "I don't care what we do at the deadline, as long as we win the deal"

      I got trashed a little for saying KP was injury prone after the ankle injury because it could have happened to anyone, but even though it was not the best injury to use as an example, I stand by it. He’s not strong. His bones, ligaments, tendons, and muscle structure are not made to handle a lot of physical contact or movement. Contact or a landing that a strong player would not even bend from will twist his joints and damage him. I’d way rather he comes back bigger and stronger so he can handle those twists, turns, and landings without straining and tearing things. Of course, that’s my non medical opinion after watching him get thrown around like a rag doll for the better part of 3 years.

    32. Farfa

      @34

      Yeah, exactly my point. For me it’s ok if he bulks up like late-stage Sabonis (who in his prime was much leaner).

    33. Zanzibar

      he’s basically been a top 40 player at least according to the stats I like most (RPM and PIPM).

      He’s definitely more valuable than his BPM and WS/48 indicate. An interesting parallel is Melo and perhaps KP’s injury is the only event that could have knocked from the KB blog Melo’s injury and OKC blowing out GSW. Melo has the team’s lowest BPM (excluding Singler who’s played less than 100 minutes), below average WS/48 and TS% yet RPM has him as a net plus like KP. Could there be some mysterious invisible force at work here…dare I say GRAVITY? Nah KP leaves the game and team implodes; Melo leaves and OKC prospers. A 1 game sample is sufficient here.

      er:Melo::Jowles:Berri

    34. Ntilakilla

      Playing Devil’s Advocate here. If KP’s knee is as injury prone as we think the endgame should be to trade him down the line after his rehab is complete and comes back strong. We all shat on Phil but he may have been right to want to trade him one year too soon than one year too late.

    35. Farfa

      @37

      Oh well, yes. I’m not against it one bit, I actually would have considered trading him this year too (for a huge package).

    36. Brian Cronin

      There’s very few players I wouldn’t be willing to see them trade for a good enough package, and KP wasn’t one of them. The only package that we knew Phil asked for, though (Booker and the #4 pick) was shitty. That was my problem with Phil trying to trade KP (that he was going to make a shitty trade), not that he would dare try to trade KP.

    37. Hubert

      Porzingis is overrated but let’s pump the brakes a bit he’s nowhere near as undeserving of a max as Wiggins and he’s basically been a top 40 player at least according to the stats I like most (RPM and PIPM). His defense is really underrated by box score stats.

      The fact that he’s a top 40 player actually supports the argument that he should not be maxed. Top 10 in salary while top 40 in production is a bad combination.

      I’m not saying he’s bad. He’s the best player we’ve had here in a very long time. But he isn’t the savior. I doubt he can be the best player on a championship team but I think he’s a very good basketball player. We’re going to need to surround with more very good basketball players and today it is more likely that we get those players than it was yesterday, so I’m not distraught.

      I’d max him and hope he learns how to be more efficient

      Paying someone for production they’ve never exhibited is the surest way to mediocrity in the NBA.

    38. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      @40

      I think it’s reasonable to max a top 40 player if that top 40 players is 22 years old and has shown serious improvement in the last year (which he has, despite all the griping about his obvious flaws of rebounding and shot selection). The difficulty with KP is that it’s not as obvious a max as Towns or Jokic, but it’s not obviously not a max either if you look at his stats closely. Also, a max player who simply plays to his max is NOT a bad deal at all. There is always going to be at most 5-10 players who outperform their max in the league, and teams have won championships while giving max guy max money. Getting surplus value off a contract is really only a realistic option for mid range contracts and below, and we shouldn’t hold onto our max money while waiting for Gianni’s or his equivalent, because that’s a once in every 5-10 year player. You go to war with the army you have

      I agree with everything else you said, though. He’s not a savior. So we shouldn’t necessarily act as if he is. But he is an extremely promising young player who has had to suffer through three terrible coaches and Phil Jackson. I think that allows for some benefit of the doubt.

    39. Zanzibar

      I like Payton but Orlando wants to trade him because they don’t plan on paying him.

      This could be a brilliant gambit by Perry. Knick interest in Payton has gotta worry Orlando; we’re the team that made an extravagant RFA offer to Timmy less than a year ago. Orlando has to consider that Knicks could make an offer they wouldn’t match this summer. If so, we might be able to get Payton cheap by the deadline.

    40. ess-dog

      Trying to stay positive: KP’s game is mostly predicated on height… blocking shots and shooting over people. It’s not like he was ever jumping out of the gym like pre-injury Derrick Rose.

      So hopefully this is a year he can work on his body, adding muscle, and work on shooting. He needs to become a center. He might come back and be less mobile in the post, but he could get thicker and stronger during that time (and yes, learning how to land is a must) and that would help with the transition to center.

      I don’t think we need to freak out about the roster in the meantime. Maybe we’ll keep O’Quinn now since the team will need a rim protector, or maybe they will keep Noah and play him? What we really need, eventually, is a quick, rebound-gobbling pf to put next to KP when he gets back, and there are many in the draft.

      I would take a chance on Payton, but surely not for a first rounder. There’s also the Hardaway problem, because he’s just not that good or worth his contract. Maybe he can find some comfort playing next to his old college teammate Trey?

      In any event, getting more minutes for young players should’ve been the goal post-ASB anyway.

    41. Brian Cronin

      On a completely unrelated note, I was just watching an old episode of The Commish from 1994 and Kurt Rambis plays a ringer for the police basketball team. He did a surprisingly good job.

    42. thenamestsam

      Man what a sad day. Next year is the most important angle here. This year we’re fairly locked in place. Others have crunched the numbers but even with KP going down and a (presumably) full commitment to the tank we’re going to have a hard time getting to the real top end of the lottery odds. But this has also largely trashed next year. It was already hard to see paths to the team having a very different talent level next year and now it’s all but impossible. In all likelihood KP will miss a good chunk of time and when he does return it won’t be at 100%. He’s still the main source of upside for the immediate future. This team is going to be bad next year.

      One of the big patterns the Knicks have maintained for a long time is an unwillingness to admit in advance that a season is a lost one. They’ve always tried to maintain at least the illusion that the team was going to compete for the playoffs. A smart franchise would see the writing on the wall and start making every move with a focus on maximizing the next two drafts and looking to 2019-2020. Seeing next year as lost should make it much easier to dump productive veterans who could’ve helped this year and next (i.e. Lee, KOQ).

      I’m just not at all convinced that the conversation in the Knicks front office today isn’t about how to “sell” Knicks fans on the next 18 months if it’s not going to be about Porzingis. That’s a scary thought.

    43. swiftandabundant

      I’m so sad for KP. He will miss the all star game and I know that’s not the most important thing, but it still sucks. Someone at P and T (or was it here) did point out that if he doesn’t make the AS team or win DPOY next year, it means his total max he’s eligible for will be less (is this true)?

      I think KP will be fine eventually but this might alter his career trajectory from possible franchise player and perennial all star to just good starting player to have on your team. From number one option to number 2 or even 3. Maybe that is good for us in the long run as he may not be a number one option anyways.

      I’ve been annoyed at the emotional hot takes about this franchise the last month or so because I have really felt like overall this season WAS different and he were headed in the right direction. People were just being impatient. I was even cool with not doing a bunch of trades. But now we have NO CHOICE.

      If KQ and Lee aren’t gone by tomorrow, we will have really messed up. And we should be looking to see what we can get for JJ, Beasley, Lance and Kanter too. We need to trade for young players/whatever picks we can get. Fire sale this MF. Fill this team with young players and let the bad contracts that we can’t trade (most likely Noah, Lance and Kanter) expire when they will naturally.

      Ive been saying for a few weeks now that we are 2 years away. Now the front office REALLY has no choice but to look at it in that time frame. Assuming KP does come back (please please please), in the long run this could work out for us. But man I really really feel for him.

      Silver, if there is any year to rig the draft for the Knicks, THIS IS THE YEAR.

    44. DRed

      One of the big patterns the Knicks have maintained for a long time is an unwillingness to admit in advance that a season is a lost one.

      Yup. That’s how you wind up paying Tim Hardaway 16 million bucks to win 32 games instead of 29 games. Since we lost in the playoffs against Indiana this teams biggest problem has been it’s fundamental inability to understand how good their own team is.

    45. wetbandit

      What a BAD break this injury is, wow. There’s definite overall very negative value to the injury, no matter how many silver linings you add.

      However, this season and next are LOST. They should look at this god forsaken mishmash of a roster and say LET US TANK. Especially this season. Hornacek will be gone at some point just because of his stupid rotations and playing time allotments, Lee/OQ/Kanter/Beas/Lance must go or stop playing, Noah’s contract should be eaten and not extended, traded, or anything.

      We should get the 7-8th pick, again. And the 1-4 pick next year.

    46. Donnie Walsh

      However, if he does fully recover from this injury, then yes, this is one of the best things that could have happened to the Knicks.

      The better thing would have been this happening in October.

    47. DRed

      Is it fair to say that KP has a bit of Matt Harvey in him?

      Matt Harvey was really good and then found out he liked doing cocaine a lot more than playing baseball, so no, I don’t think it’s the same thing.

    48. Brian Cronin

      Watch it be for Frank the Tank “because we have to replace KP’s scoring at the 4 for our playoff push.”

    49. Brian Cronin

      This shit is so annoying. All the reporting is just repeating what the one real reporter (Shams) reported, which is just that Willy is being traded to Charlotte. Argh.

    50. alsep73

      Woj:

      Charlotte is acquiring New York’s Willy Hernangomez for Johnny O’Bryant and two future second-round picks, league source tells ESPN.

    51. thenoblefacehumper

      If it’s Monk we got hosed.

      If it’s Dwight fucking lol.

      If it’s their first I don’t necessarily love it but it’s fine given Willy’s tenuous fit.

    52. kevin5318

      @ShamsCharania
      Sources: Charlotte is sending Johnny O’Bryant and two second-round draft picks to the Knicks for Willy Hernangomez.

    53. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Johnny o Bryant and two seconds WHAT THE FUCK

      We basically traded willy, who would’ve been a lotto pick in a redraft, for the two seconds we gave up to get him

      This is bullshit

    54. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Great to know that this team will never ever be good until James Dolan dies

    55. domiknick

      Who tf is Johnny Obryant?

      We just lost 30+ mpg of our starting PF for a year – NOW let’s trade our young, cost-controlled, backup big man who wants more playing time!

      I just can’t…

    56. Brian Cronin

      Well, remember when we all said, “Willy complaining didn’t matter”? Well….I guess we were off there. Maybe we should have said, “Willy complaining doesn’t matter…if the Knicks had a competent front office.”

    57. Frank

      this is brutal
      I liked Willy but wasn’t so against trading him, but not sure that Johnny O’Bryant was what I was looking for in return. Does anyone know anything about him?
      The two seconds are fine I guess but the worst of Nets/Cleveland is likely to be in the high 40s at best.

      It’s also possible that this is the first shoe to drop and that Mills/Perry needed those seconds to do another deal.

    58. domiknick

      Well, remember when we all said, “Willy complaining didn’t matter”? Well….I guess we were off there. Maybe we should have said, “Willy complaining doesn’t matter…if the Knicks had a competent front office.”

      Take that for culture!!

    59. Brian Cronin

      Does anyone know anything about him?

      Just what I saw when the Knicks play the Hornets, which wasn’t much. His stats aren’t good.

    60. Frank

      Depending on what Charlotte does with Kemba and co., getting a Charlotte 2nd round pick might be semi-valuable.

    61. Farfa

      Johnny O’Bryant is a pretty useless PF who can’t rebound and shoots only from 14ft out. Just what we needed.

    62. DRed

      Why would you trade Willy now, when you’ve buried him, instead of letting him play and build up his value. They’re so fucking dumb.

    63. Cock Jowles, Living through the Melo Era All Over Again

      Well, now we know that Willy won’t be the first Knicks rookie-contract player since Charlie Ward to receive an extension!

    64. Farfa

      Anyway there you have it: Perry is looking pretty stupid. Good Melo trade, a couple nice additions and A TERRIBLE TRADE right now. That said I can’t see WHG growing as a player in Charlotte, so whatevs

    65. Frank

      O’Bryant is basically an expiring contract, so he’s just a throw-in to make the money work I guess?

      Difficult to grade this in a vacuum without knowing what else is about to happen, if anything. If it’s just Willy for two 2nds, that feels pretty meh to me. Not a disaster, but certainly not an inspiring move.

      Update that the second rounders are the 2020 and 2021 Charlotte picks. Those might be ok.

    66. Brian Cronin

      Why would you trade Willy now, when you’ve buried him, instead of letting him play and build up his value. They’re so fucking dumb.

      Sooooo dumb. They literally just opened up a bunch of possible playing time and now they trade him? After burying him all year after he made the all-rookie team? And they have him under contract for two more years for practically nothing! This is madness!

    67. kevin5318

      @ShamsCharania
      Sources: Charlotte is sending its own 2020 and 2021 second-rounders to New York in Hernangomez deal.

    68. Brian Cronin

      Okay, at least it is Charlotte’s own second round picks. It’s still a moronic trade, but hey, at least it’s theirs, which could possibly be high second round picks. But, yeah, not even 2018 or 2019 picks is pretty annoying.

    69. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      @87

      It’s most certainly a disaster. WHG was a lottery level talent, first team all rookie and perhaps the most productive rookie on a per minute basis, and we traded him for two seconds. How is that not a major loss in value? It’s asinine

      Edit: it’s future seconds not even current seconds LMFAO. Future seconds are generally not very valuable

    70. ess-dog

      WOW, O’Bryant actually sucked in college, too. Maybe they’ll cut him, and this was basically Willy for two 2nds? Probably the best they could do.

    71. Farfa

      I can’t believe this is the best offer they got and caved in. It’s just incredibly stupid. Unless they know WHG is, I don’t know, drowning in booze every night

    72. Cock Jowles, Living through the Melo Era All Over Again

      most productive rookie on a per minute basis

      Whoa there, let’s not forget about the eyetest, which tells me he’s worth an expiring contract and two future seconds.

    73. Stratomatic says "I don't care what we do at the deadline, as long as we win the deal"

      Either Willy is absolutely atrocious in practice, they’ve given up on him, and they are planning on keeping O’Quinn or if there were any questions about whether we have dimwits in charge all doubts have been removed.

    74. Brian Cronin

      I can’t believe this is the best offer they got and caved in. It’s just incredibly stupid. Unless they know WHG is, I don’t know, drowning in booze every night

      I can believe that it’s the best offer that they got, but since he’s signed for two more years, it was ridiculous to trade him now if this is the best that they could get.

    75. Frank

      I don’t actually think it’s that bad. We all love Willy but it is quite possible that he just was not playing well in practice and they don’t like him that much. I mean, they specifically called him part of their core, and he couldn’t even win garbage minutes in training camp and practice.

      It’s certainly not the worst trade the Knicks have made. I guess time will tell.

    76. Brian Cronin

      There was a great line on Twitter about how only the Knicks could bury a second year player after a good rookie season to appease a coach that they’re probably fire after the season.

    77. Kevin Udwary

      There was absolutely no reason to trade Willy now. There is actual playing time opening up for him, he’s young and still under contract for next year. Play him the rest of the season, build up his value then trade him in the offseason if you don’t like him. This is idiotic. New faces, same bullshit.

    78. 2FOR18, understands math

      I’m going to write a book about being a Knicks fan for the past 35 years. I’m calling it “From Bernard to KP with 2 for 18 and Charles Smith in between”. Or maybe I’ll shorten it to “Torment”.

    79. "Out Fearing!"

      Not good, but also not very bad. I figured they would play Willy with KP out, but nah.

      Everytime I see a team getting 2 2RP, I think they already preparing for another trade. Let’s hope this is the case.

      Edit: it’s very bad, indeed :( I thought Willy was a RAF (and even so…)

    80. Farfa

      There was a great line on Twitter about how only the Knicks could bury a second year player after a good rookie season to appease a coach that they’re probably fire after the season.

      Actually this is what scares me the most. It looks like Jeff is strong with the front office. And he’s doing a bad job for the future of this franchise. Let’s face it. Dolan’s razor never disappoints.

    81. Bruno Almeida

      Holy fuck…

      I never expected Perry to be anything other than bad, but this is so stupid I can’t even understand.

      Just dumping Willy like that for 2020 and 2021 second rounders, holy shit… I can’t believe this shit. Yeah, let’s put all our hopes into a slow rebuild and winning trades with these fucking clowns in charge.

    82. DRed

      , I think they already preparing for another trade. Let’s hope this is the case.

      There’s a strong chance we’re going to do something even dumber

    83. thenoblefacehumper

      I can’t fucking believe anyone is defending this shit. Willy should’ve been the fucking ROY last year. If we absolutely had to trade him for whatever dumbass reason, we could’ve gotten a first if we hadn’t arbitrarily decided he should never play. After we made that arbitrary decision, the least we could’ve done is at least seen what he could do post-Porzingis instead of trading him for picks that you can FUCKING BUY.

      I can’t even get into all the reasons this is so dumb. It’s mind-boggling. These jackasses must be dumber than Phil, who was really fucking dumb.

    84. kevin5318

      This is good news at least.

      Opposing executives say the Knicks continue to take calls on center Kyle O’Quinn and guard Courtney Lee. New York is also still trying to trade Joakim Noah as well

    85. mase

      We just traded an asset for nothing in return!
      Two seconds two and three years away is no asset and who the fuck is o’bryant

    86. ess-dog

      This year’s 2nd isn’t Charlotte’s btw, it’s Cleveland’s that Charlotte owns. So not anything special.

      Edit: ah it’s for the following two years… that’s even more absurd.

    87. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      We’re gonna use those two seconds to get rid of Joakim in a trade for Payton and Biyombo, just watch

    88. DRed

      O’Bryant’s stats suggest he’s a replacement level player. I honestly don’t even understand what the Knicks think they’re doing with this trade.

    89. Bruno Almeida

      Also, let’s trade Porzingis best friend on the team for nothing! Great chemistry building, asset management, great rebuild with young promising players!

      I can’t fucking believe this shit, I’m so sure they’ll make another ridiculous move still.

    90. Hubert

      OK now there is officially no silver lining.

      This is worse news to me than the injury. You can overcome an injury. You can’t overcome management that doesn’t understand value.

      We’ll probably max Porzingis out before he starts his rehab.

    91. DS

      Probably f’ing Dolan lashing out at WHG for asking for a trade. Possibly misdirected anger over KP injury.

    92. Frank

      Funny that the opinions on this trade are all over the place on Twitter amongst knowledgeable/reasonable basketball people.

      Chris Herring thinks it’s a good deal for the Knicks.
      Chris Mannix thinks it’s a good deal for Charlotte
      Matt Moore (Hardwood Paroxysm) thinks it’s a good deal for the Knicks
      Most here think it’s a bad deal for us.

      I really don’t know what to think. Centers have very little value nowadays – especially guys who honestly will probably will top out as a good backup big man or a starting center on a non-playoff team. But two 2nd-rounders are not a ton of value either.

      Oh well.

    93. Early Bird

      Well on the bright side we initially got Willy for two 2nd rounders. Thus he netted us J. O’Bryant!!! /s

    94. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      It’s clearly a bad trade because we traded a productive player (whose defensive struggles were actually overstated except by the fabled eye test) for two future seconds who will likely not approximate Willy’s level of production. Terrible terrible terrible.

      We traded a bird in hand for two rocks in the bush

    95. Stratomatic says "I don't care what we do at the deadline, as long as we win the deal"

      I know I can be an opinionated pain the ass sometimes and some of you might be happy to see me go, but I’m not sure how much more of being a Knicks fan I can take. It’s too disheartening. I’m at the stage where I don’t even mind the losing anymore as long as I feel like I’m part of something that’s heading in a good direction. This group is just more of the same incompetence we’ve had for so many years I can’t take it anymore. You would think we could come up with someone good by accident.

      We are going to wind up with 2 crap players out of the 2nd round that probably won’t even last in the NBA and at a minimum Willy is going to be a terrific backup C on an attractive contract with some shot at being better than that. Uggh

      @127 +1

    96. "Out Fearing!"

      Let’s hope they needed the second-rounders to sweet a possible Noah deal :)

      (Anyway, it’s bad GMing when you have to trade a cost-controlled player to dump a massive overpay)

    97. Cock Jowles, Living through the Melo Era All Over Again

      Welp, the r/nyknicks chorus seems to think it was a fair trade.

      Which team should I start rooting for? Sixers? Celtics? I just don’t care anymore.

    98. Farfa

      I’m totally expecting Biyombo and Payton for Noah, Frank and the two second rounders. And I’m not joking.

    99. Brian Cronin

      We’re gonna use those two seconds to get rid of Joakim in a trade for Payton and Biyombo, just watch

      That’s the first thing I thought of. That Willy is being used, in effect, as a sweetener to get rid of Noah’s contract, so that Mills and Perry can fix the Knicks in this year’s free agency….because they’re dumb.

    100. Farfa

      @130

      Jowles, can we decide to root en masse for, I don’t know, the Virtus Bologna? I swear, it’s much better. We once had Ginobili.

    101. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Ah yes, free agency, so we can tread water as a 30 win team while waiting for KP to come back from an ACL tear

      Holy. Fuck.

    102. Cock Jowles, Living through the Melo Era All Over Again

      I don’t actually think it’s that bad.

      No offense Frank, but that’s how I know that this trade is fucking terrible. If you’re calling it a C+ trade, it’s an F. Full stop.

    103. d-mar

      Too bad we can’t talk Shaquille O’Neal, Jermaine O’Neal and Ed O’Bannon out of retirement. With Kyle O’Quinn and Johnny O’Bryant we’d have the all-Irish team.

      (sorry, just trying to find humor after another shitty move by the dumbasses in the Knicks front office)

    104. Brian Cronin

      If you’re insistent on trading Willy, this isn’t an awful return (as two seconds usually can be used to get something useful like, well, you know, Willy). It’s that you shouldn’t be insistent on trading Willy. He’s signed for two more years. This is just bonkers.

    105. Farfa

      But see, Dolan shows us again and again why democracy and the republic are so important in modern states. It’s too dangerous to entrust the future of anything to a dumbass just because he inherited it. OH WAIT TRUMP

    106. Bruno Almeida

      @130

      I also instantly went to Reddit to see their reaction, because well, if they disagree with me it really means Im right, so well…

      I feel your pain strato. We’ve disagreed so much on how to do stuff here, but now we’re just feeling the same way.

      There’s no way to paint this as a good deal, literally no. Willy was under contract, productive last year and still promising. We get a useless player and 2 seconds that could be bought with Dolan’s fucking money, just to appease a fucking stupid coach who should have been fired 20 games ago.

    107. Donnie Walsh

      Um, weird.

      Not only is WHG a good young player with a favorable contract under team control for several years, but the reason he hasn’t been playing in NY is because of a log jam that was cleared, literally, hours before the trade was announced.

    108. Farfa

      The day WHG becomes a regular 15-10 guy is the day when we’ll remember the Melo trade as a bad trade for its consquences.

    109. steveoh

      The other way to look at this, if we strain hard enough, is that when KP comes back, he’s going to be a center, full stop. His knee won’t hold up on the perimeter. Limit how much he moves. Put him close to the basket to defend the rim with his long arms. And feed him tons of burritos while in rehab.

      And if that’s the case, we might not need Willy.

      Again, I’m straining. I don’t believe the Knicks have foresight to think like that.

    110. Brian Cronin

      Not only in WHG a good young player with a favorable contract under team control for several years, but the reason he hasn’t been playing in NY is because of a log jam that was cleared, literally, hours before the trade was announced.

      It really is nuts. I hope to heavens that they had actually agreed on the trade before the injury.

    111. Bruno Almeida

      And if any team is asking for freaking 2020 charlotte seconds for trade purposes, why the hell wouldn’t Willy serve the same purpose? You’re telling me a deal is not going down because a team is adamant about getting the 2020 Charlotte Hornets 2nd?

    112. Brian Cronin

      And if any team is asking for freaking 2020 charlotte seconds for trade purposes, why the hell wouldn’t Willy serve the same purpose? You’re telling me a deal is not going down because a team is adamant about getting the 2020 Charlotte Hornets 2nd?

      I can easily believe that there are teams that would prefer two future Charlotte seconds (they might suck soon, so their 2020 and 2021 seconds will possibly be really early) to Willy.

      The issue is that one of those teams really should not have been the Knicks.

    113. Frank

      No offense Frank, but that’s how I know that this trade is fucking terrible. If you’re calling it a C+ trade, it’s an F. Full stop.

      lol I actually laughed out loud. Nice.

      I dunno. I’m always Team Optimism, and possibly give too much credence to how coaches determine who plays. It’s just hard for me to imagine that if Willy was that great that he wouldn’t have earned even a few minutes this season. I fully get his #s and I was per-36’ing his numbers like crazy last season. But Marc Gasol he isn’t and will never be. Then in that case, what is he worth? We can’t even get a 1st round pick for KOQ and KOQ is quite superior to Willy — and it’s probably unlikely that Willy will ever be as good as KOQ. Willy can’t shoot and he’s at best a passable defender. He has some nifty post moves and can pass the ball, but KOQ is better at those things too.

      So then it comes down to the other +’s of Willy — namely that he’s on a cheap contract and that he’s KP’s buddy. With the glut of bigs in the league, it’s probably not so hard to find someone who can approximate Willy’s contribution for cheap. And Kp already said he’d be sad to see him go but he wants him to find an opportunity to play.

    114. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      It makes sense to trade Willy if your plan was to commit to his more expensive and older self (which is dumb by itself) but to receive literally nothing for the guy is an embarrassment. Maybe they were recouping all the 2nd round picks that Mr. Jackson traded away and value the draft. I don’t know, but trading Hernangomez because he was third string behind two excellent box score guys is dumb. He has way more value than that and there was no rush to trade him. None. We won’t know the market for him, and this feels like a petty move because he won’t receive any PT in Charlotte. Maybe this is the Knicks front office saying “if any of you leak trade talk to the press we will trade you to an equally shitty situation.” Still, it’s a poor value deal for a young, cost controlled asset.

      If they flip the picks and McDermott for Elfrid Payton, that would certainly make this look like chess but we all know it’s checkers. Stupid move.

    115. Stratomatic says "I don't care what we do at the deadline, as long as we win the deal"

      This is what happens when you have people in charge that don’t know how to value players at all. We all disagree from time to time because we are looking at different data or have different insights. That’s what markets are all about. But I can’t see how anyone could conclude that Willy wasn’t a productive rookie last year on a bargain contract. Even if you think at 23 he has limited upside, he was still a good backup C on an attractive contract. All he needed was playing time. He was also one of the better moves we’ve made in the last few years.

      Does this mean we are keeping O’Quinn?

      Seems WAY more likely now.

    116. Kevin Udwary

      The day WHG becomes a regular 15-10 guy is the day when we’ll remember the Melo trade as a bad trade for its consquences.

      He already is a 15-10 guy, he just needs the minutes. His career per36 numbers are 16-13. Give the guy some real playing time, and he could give you 90% of Kanter’s production at a fifth of the price. He has real value, our idiot coach just wouldn’t play him, and we sold low for absolutely no reason. We may have a new GM, but the front office hasn’t changed a bit.

    117. wetbandit

      That’s the first thing I thought of. That Willy is being used, in effect, as a sweetener to get rid of Noah’s contract, so that Mills and Perry can fix the Knicks in this year’s free agency.

      Absolutely what I was thinking the Knicks would do. Fix. Patch. Hey, it’s worked before with guys who overperformed! (Cole, Lin, Willy, Gallinari, Lee, Novak, Camby, and Chris Smith. Get rid of all B+ players, get some A+ pointzers!)

      This will continue to end badly.

      I sign up for team cock.

      Everything is farce.

    118. TheOakmanCometh

      The fact that they were so eager to accommodate Willy’s trade request does suggest that Noah is next. Which is dumb, because when KOQ walks this summer we’ll actually need a backup C.

    119. Bruno Almeida

      So one of the very few Phil moves that were undoubtedly decent is literally undone in half a season by the two clowns…

    120. chrisk06811

      I don’t get some of you. yesterday, someone wanted to dump KOQ for a 2nd. We just got twice that for Willie. I’m not sure we should have done it. But I’m really not sold that he is any good. And I have a feeling he pissed off the coaching staff. regardless of how you feel about the coaches, that’s not a great thing for a young player to do.

    121. d-mar

      Ok even if you buy getting 2nd rounders for Willy, you can’t get a 2018 or 2019 pick?

      That’s what makes this deal doubly infuriating.

    122. Frank O.

      It’s just like the knicks to compound terrible news by turning around and piling on unnecessarily more terrible news.
      Hey Knicks fans, tough loss of KP. Torn ACL. Man, some guys are never the same after…
      Oh, BTW, we’re going to trade away the guy we said was part of the core of our future for a nobody and for two nobody draft picks.
      nice
      I think it’s about time to raise the price of tickets!

    123. JK47

      We suck! We suck now, and we suck forever. There is nobody connected to this franchise that has the foggiest notion of how to run an NBA team.

      Remember that young core of Kristaps Porzingis, Willy Hernangomez and Frank Ntilikina? How’s that goink? Frank is pretty good at fighting through screens! That’s the only reason to watch this team, the only hope for the future. To watch Frank get skinny through screens and deflect passes. That’s the cornerstone that we’re building on.

      I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The only way to enjoy this team is as farce. This team is like a fucking episode of Three’s Company.

    124. JK47

      I don’t get some of you. yesterday, someone wanted to dump KOQ for a 2nd. We just got twice that for Willie.

      KOQ has a player option next year that he’s very likely to exercise.
      Willy is cheap and under team control for a while.

    125. Kevin Udwary

      I get where some people are coming from who consider this ok. Willy type bigs don’t have a lot of value in the league today (I would argue this is dumb, and that rebounding and efficient scoring around the basket are very valuable still) so maybe this is ok return for him, considering. The real problem I have is that keeping Willy through the season is by far the better move, since it gives you flexibility in dealing with a new Kanter and/or KOQ contract. Now we are going to be desperate for backcourt help if both of them opt out and are going to have to overpay for at least one of them. So get ready for Kanter at 25-30mil a year.

    126. Farfa

      KOQ has a player option next year that he’s very likely to exercise.

      Are you sure he’s going to opt in?

    127. JK47

      The worst thing about all of this is that it’s once again clear that the team is run by a bunch of incompetent boobs, and that a whole new cycle of failure will have to play out before the next Isiah Thomas or Phil Jackson starfucks his way to the GM job and is brought in a savior to fix everything. So it’s going to be at least a few more years of the Mills/Perry clown show before we have even the faintest glimmer of hope that somebody competent might come in here and set some shit straight.

    128. JK47

      Are you sure he’s going to opt in?

      Actually I meant the opposite, he’s probably going to become a FA.

    129. DRed

      Welp, the r/nyknicks chorus seems to think it was a fair trade.

      I might have to go on reddit after lunch

    130. Farfa

      Dammit I’m throwing a tantrum like when Phil got Melo his MM

      These moves are so bad that even us fans see them as awful, what the fuck are these guys doing in the front office? Snorting coke off strippers?

    131. Brian Cronin

      What IS the terminology when you use your player option to opt out? Are you exercising that option?

    132. Stratomatic says "I don't care what we do at the deadline, as long as we win the deal"

      Opposing executives say the Knicks continue to take calls on center Kyle O’Quinn and guard Courtney Lee. New York is also still trying to trade Joakim Noah as well.

    133. chrisk06811

      JK, but Kyle’s option is at a great price.

      Still not in love w/ the deal; I think Kevin is 100% right. I’m good w/ KOQ returning, but not Kanter. Although, I think he might opt in, because I think he’s going to have to take a pay cut in year 1 if he doesn’t (unless….we pay him).

    134. Stratomatic says "I don't care what we do at the deadline, as long as we win the deal"

      More
      @hoopscritic just said on @WFAN660 that the Knicks wouldn’t deal Hernangomez in a package for Bledsoe but then they turned around and traded him for two 2nds

      lolol this could go down as one of the worst trades in recent memory, I can’t help but laugh

      F this team…

    135. Bruno Almeida

      @169

      I think the official term is player early termination option, ETO isn’t it? So using it would be leaving early.

    136. Farfa

      Kanter is going to opt in if only to say “This is my family and I never let my family down in times of troubles”, and then will go and terribly mistime his defense on PnR coverage

    137. swiftandabundant

      Kanter opting in is A OK with me. We’re gonna suck next year most likely. He can start at center and then we can trade him at the deadline. After the end of next season is when we will make our move. That’s when we should have been making a move anyways. Now we have no choice.

    138. Donnie Walsh

      This team is like a fucking episode of Three’s Company.

      Like the episode when they traded Mr Roper for Don Knotts and two 2nd round picks.

    139. Stratomatic says "I don't care what we do at the deadline, as long as we win the deal"

      I’m eager to sell bitcoins to Steve Mills

      rotflmao

      maybe Haralabos will sell him some crypto kitties.

    140. Stratomatic says "I don't care what we do at the deadline, as long as we win the deal"

      @165

      The exact reason for my distress.

    141. Brian Cronin

      He was a second round pick. We’re getting 2 of those in return for him. Its a good trade.

      Memphis should accept two future seconds for Marc Gasol.

    142. swiftandabundant

      I also really think you guys need to ask yourself why Willy has played hardly at all this year when his main competition was Kanter (who everyone here says secretly sucks) and KQ, who is an energy bench big. Yes they are both veterans but Willy did start for half a season last year.

      Could it be that maybe he just blows in practice and came to TC this year with an entitled attitude that he deserved to play/start and that he got his lunch handed to him every day in practice by two much better players? And instead of working on his game to be ready, he pouted? Maybe he thought bc he’s KP’s BFF he was somehow entitled to PT?

      I mean, he could be a decent player and maybe I’ll be wrong. But people freaking out about us trading a second round pick for 2 second round picks? Seems a tad overdramatic to me.

    143. Kevin Udwary

      You guys overvalue Willy way too much. He was a second round pick. We’re getting 2 of those in return for him. Its a good trade.

      Oh ok, let’s offer the picks we just got for Jokic. Or would we be getting ripped off?

    144. The Infamous Cdiggy

      @149 I’m with you. I dont think it was a bad trade at all. Dont care about Johnny O’Bryant – I’ll take the 2 second rounders: in principle, we need more dice rolls in upcoming drafts.

      I know the sentiment is/was that we’d prefer to trade Kanter and have Willy become Kanter eventually. Maybe the Knicks feel that they already have a bird in the hand (Kanter). Willy wasn’t playing, so I’m not going to get hung up about the value they got back for him.

      Look, I’m upset about KP. I’m bringing my Knicks hat with me to work (I’m in L.A. now), placing it on my desk, and making everyone who passes by pay their respects (we’ll see how well that goes, lol).

      Please, don’t jump off the bridge because of this particular trade.

    145. Bruno Almeida

      Hell, we should be offering our pick in the #10 range for Giannis, Milwaukee gets like 5 picks worth of value right?

    146. Kevin Udwary

      @185 Frank has been getting less than 10mins lately behind a horrible Jack. Maybe we should trade him for a couple seconds too? Then we can flip those 2nds for Whiteside! I’m glad we all live in this reality!

    147. rama in the JING

      Adios, muchachos. I can’t take this shit anymore. Even Knickerblogger.net can’t salve the pain of bring a Knicks fan – it really should be Knickersupportgroupblogger.net…

    148. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      The funny thing is Hernangomez won’t be playing this year either. He’s behind Dwight Howard and Cody Zeller. So now WHG gets to be unhappy in Charlotte instead of New York. This trade was petty.

    149. domiknick

      I think constantly referring to Willy as “a 2nd rd pick” is disingenuous. It’d be like saying “we traded two 2nd picks for a #1 overall pick”…and that #1 overall pick is named Kwame Brown.

      I think by all available metrics from what we’ve seen and know about Willy he’s exceeded the normal expectations of a 2nd rd pick. All that people wanted the Knicks to do was treat him as such. He wasn’t Shaquille O’Neal. He also wasn’t Andy Rautins.

    150. Z-man

      To be fair, we here at KB think Willy has more value, and we’re right. But his perceived value is quite low. There were reportedly 10 teams or so interested in him, but what were they offering? Is it possible that this was indeed the best offer?

      I’m not defending the trade, and I agree that the smart move was to play him and build up his value, especially now that KP is done. But at this time, this might be the best we could have gotten for him under today’s market conditions.

    151. Brian Cronin

      Is it possible that this was indeed the best offer?

      I think it is likely that this was the best offer, yes.

      Which is why they should have not traded him when his value was so low.

      But yes, if they had to trade him, this sounds about right, market-wise (after burying him all season).

    152. kevin5318

      We should have been patient but I’m guessing that this is Willy’s market value right now. Most teams don’t give a shit about his BPM or WP48 last year.

      There was no rush for a trade tho.

    153. Stratomatic says "I don't care what we do at the deadline, as long as we win the deal"

      I think it is likely that this was the best offer, yes.

      I agree with you.

      I think we would all also agree that when the best offer is poor, you are supposed to say “no”. That’s why we are upset.

    154. Cock Jowles, Living through the Melo Era All Over Again

      We should have been patient but I’m guessing that this is Willy’s market value right now. Most teams don’t give a shit about his BPM or WP48 last year.

      That should be a good thing. That’s how you end up with a very good player on his extension making $8M a year instead of $20M. But, y’know, Knicks.

    155. The Infamous Cdiggy

      @185 Exactly.

      @193 I can agree with this. They didn’t have to trade him. But again, it’s not something to switch team allegiances over.

    156. Brian Cronin

      I think we would all also agree that when the best offer is poor, you are supposed to say “no”.

      Ay-yep.

    157. ptmilo

      Look at the bright side. Maybe we can trade the two 2nds for, say, the 35th pick in 2020. Once in a blue moon the 35th pick actually puts up borderline ROY type numbers and you get him locked up for four years. Even if we do something crazy in 2021 like intentionally obliterate his value by tying him to bench, we can still probably parlay him into a couple of seconds in the mid 2020s. And a 2026 second rounder is only 11 years old right now so we’ll be getting younger and more athletic as planned.

    158. The Infamous Cdiggy

      I would have liked to had subscribed to the theory that KP’s injury would’ve opened up pt for Willy, but he’s not a 4. Which lineups would’ve made sense with him?

    159. JK47

      You guys overvalue Willy way too much. He was a second round pick. We’re getting 2 of those in return for him. Its a good trade.

      The overwhelming majority of second round picks can’t play basketball at the NBA level. Willy has played 1500 not-terrible minutes in the NBA. He has a career .545 eFG%. He’s also a good rebounder.

      The two second round picks we got in exchange are likely to be a lot worse.

    160. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Take this with a grain of salt, since it’s from Isola, but if this is at all accurate it’s utterly fucking ridiculous:

      Within 12 hours, Kristaps lost his season and had a friend traded. Strange but true: some coaches & team officials didn’t like that Willy and KP would regularly communicate by speaking Spanish. No bueno.

    161. Brian Cronin

      Take this with a grain of salt, since it’s from Isola, but if this is at all accurate it’s utterly fucking ridiculous:

      I totally buy that that is something that someone complained about in the past, as that is too oddly specific for Isola to just make up. However, I doubt that even these morons would trade a player for a reason like that.

    162. thenamestsam

      Others have said it, but what’s really apparent is that the Knicks just don’t understand asset management in the least and that’s a huge part of being a successful NBA franchise. This trade probably does accurately represent what WHG’s value around the league is right now. He wasn’t a big prospect coming into the league, he has obvious flaws in his game, and he isn’t playing on a bad team. So to get two 2nd rounders for him is “fair” in that sense.

      However, analyzing the trade in a vacuum like that really misses the forest for the trees. They took a good and promising young player and buried him on the depth chart this year. That in spite of the fact that the team is terrible and the first rule of terrible teams in the NBA is that you play your young guys. So for absolutely no reason they completely tanked his value, and then at the exact moment when an opportunity for him to get time and start rehabbing that value opens up, they dump him. Bonus points for the fact that the franchise player had a devastating injury last night, and this morning they dealt his best friend away.

      If they didn’t love WHG for whatever reason that’s understandable. Maybe they rate his defense very low, maybe they see the writing on the wall that KP is a C long-term, maybe he clashed with coaches or whatever other reason we’re not privy to. But even if they had designs on trading him now was the worst time to do it. They could have gotten more six months ago if they knew they were going to bury him this year. They could in all likelihood have gotten more six months from now if they just started giving him run and let him put up the solid offensive stats he always has when he has played. Dumping him at this exact moment is so dumb.

    163. djphan

      this was a definite sell low on wily… if this was the offer… we should’ve just kept him…

      i don’t think we’ll get punished too hard…. but wily could’ve AT LEAST been the backup when koq opts out…. if we’re planning on resigning koq then this is less bad.. but i don’t think dealing wily and keeping koq would be good decisions….

      if we manage to offload lee… then i’ll be happy…. if we trade a 1st rd pick… then we should riot…

    164. DRed

      Okay, so we’re trading a guy who is at least a decent NBA player, who has two very cheap years left on his contract, for two future players who are not that likely to help until at least 2021, and some of you think this is a good deal?

    165. Brian Cronin

      The extra awesome part is how Mills specifically included him as part of the Knicks’ “young core” at the beginning of the year.

      Then they bury him and then dump him for two future seconds.

      Wow.

    166. Stratomatic says "I don't care what we do at the deadline, as long as we win the deal"

      If I had to guess, I’d say the under/over on regular posters to this blog that could do a better job running the Knicks than current management is 25.

    167. Brian Cronin

      Okay, so we’re trading a guy who is at least a decent NBA player, who has two very cheap years left on his contract, for two future players who are not that likely to help until at least 2021, and some of you think this is a good deal?

      Well, the Knicks made the move, right? If it wasn’t a good move they wouldn’t have made it, right? So it must be a good move.

    168. djphan

      there could’ve been something else at play that we don’t know about… maybe wily was not working that hard and not making progress…. or being a bad influence on kp…. who knows….

      but this was a serious punt…. was SA’s first rd’er on the table? it’s all speculation but i think it’s possible… and their first this year would’ve been a lot better haul….

    169. Frank

      Definitely agree with the idea that they depressed his value then traded him at the bottom. Me saying it wasn’t that bad is just referring to a value-for-value assessment of the trade.

    170. Frank

      I would be very surprised if SA’s 1st was on the table. Have they ever traded a 1st round pick in the Pop/Buford era?

    171. Cock Jowles, Living through the Melo Era All Over Again

      Within 12 hours, Kristaps lost his season and had a friend traded. Strange but true: some coaches & team officials didn’t like that Willy and KP would regularly communicate by speaking Spanish. No bueno.

      Fire everyone.

    172. Owen

      If I had to guess, I’d say the under/over on regular posters to this blog that could do a better job running the Knicks than current management is 25.

      DRed is ready from what I hear

    173. thenoblefacehumper

      I mean, he could be a decent player and maybe I’ll be wrong. But people freaking out about us trading a second round pick for 2 second round picks? Seems a tad overdramatic to me.

      I know right? It’s as if people don’t understand that we can flip these two second round picks for Draymond Green, and GSW will say yes because that’s DOUBLE Draymond’s value. Because, you know, that’s totally how this works!

    174. djphan

      SA has wasted a bunch of picks on draft and stash’s….. and they know wily can at least play…. and would’ve been cheaper than whoever they picked…. i don’t think it would’ve been unreasonable to include a 1st this year… altho i may have not gone that far… def next year’s top 20 protected….

    175. Count de Pennies

      Good – but not great – trade.

      It would have been much better if the Nix had received just one second round pick. In the year 2028 or beyond.

      For Nix fans, it’s all about the lulz. A twisted appreciation of this team’s enduring incompetence is all we’ve got and all we’ll ever have so long as Guitar Jimmy has his chubby digits choked around the fretboard of this franchise. All we can do is root for the stupid. This trade should have been even worse.

    176. Stratomatic says "I don't care what we do at the deadline, as long as we win the deal"

      Definitely agree with the idea that they depressed his value then traded him at the bottom. Me saying it wasn’t that bad is just referring to a value-for-value assessment of the trade.

      One thing I’ll point out is that this comes into play with guys like O’Quinn and Lee also. If you bury them and then they want out (and they will), you’ll have a tougher time getting value for them also.

      The difference being that there were some opportunities to use Willy and Dotson that would have satisfied the issues with burying vets that deserve minutes based on merit and potentially hurting their market value, but also developing the kids. They chose to maximize playing time for vets and do nothing for Willy and Dotson. That was wrong.

    177. Max

      @213 Only 25?

      The attitude of this blog was summed up by @193:
      “we here at KB think Willy has more value, and we’re right.”

      So the over/under must be something like “everyone”.

    178. geo

      Adios, muchachos. I can’t take this shit anymore. Even Knickerblogger.net can’t salve the pain of bring a Knicks fan – it really should be Knickersupportgroupblogger.net

      how in the world can one sports organization cause so much pain to so many…

      i mean wtf – the most valuable nba franchise – and, we’re stuck with horrible ownership and management…

    179. Farfa

      Max (a fellow Italian, right), this attitude is deserved here. Go on P&T and tell me what kind of analysis you get from there. BTW, I still think P&T is a good place to be, just a little more tailored to common fans

    180. Stratomatic says "I don't care what we do at the deadline, as long as we win the deal"

      So the over/under must be something like “everyone”.

      We count as 2 of the 25. We can go from there, but everyone sounds about right. :-)

    181. ClashFan

      I think one of the dumbest things I’ve ever read on this board is that Willy was just a second round pick (who cost two second round picks to acquire) so we should be happy to get a couple of seconds back. So, I’m assuming that was just humor.

      Yup, not happy about this. Why now? I’d like to hope that those two future seconds are going to be in some upcoming nice deal. If not, why do this at this time? No reason to deal Willy at this time. Oh wait, he speaks in Spanish too much, though. We can’t have that!

      At the end of the day, you had a guy who was all-rookie his first year, improved during the year, can score efficiently and rebound, on a great team-friendly deal, and you then condemn him to the bench (thus reducing his trade value) and trade him for an expiring scrub and a couple of seconds 2-3 years in the future.

      Stupid.

    182. Count de Pennies

      The Nix are the sports world’s equivalent of Tommy Wiseau’s “The Room.”

      Once you embrace the mind-blowing awfulness of it all, there’s good times to be had.

    183. Totes McGoats is so G he pours Pepsi in a Coke bottle

      I don’t wanna get all knee jerky over this Willy trade, but at the very least it is VERY risky. The money saved is practically inconsequential as Willy is on a GREAT contract for the team. 2 future 2nds only has good value if:
      1. Another team takes them in lieu of a 1st to absorb Noah
      Or..
      2. Charlotte absolutely sucks in a couple of years.

      It kinda reeks of a “this is what we do to players who request trades, bwahahahahaaaa!” move because the rotation there is just as crowded.

      Also, no way this was the best offer. I refuse..

    184. ClashFan

      Wait. I think we are all overlooking something here. Willy cost two second rounders and we got two back. Even Steven (Mills). But, the dude acquired is an expiring. Willy had two more years at the exorbitant cost of 1.6m or so.

      So, CAP SPACE!!

      :-)

    185. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      So if Willy is worth 2 2nd round picks, does that mean O’Quin is worth 3 2nd round picks, and Lee is worth 4 2nd round picks?

      We could come out of this with 9 2nd round picks. lol

      Not to be funny, I think Lee was actually traded once for 4 2nd round picks. lol

    186. chrisk06811

      now that I’ve had an hour to let this sink in……the only way this makes sense to me is if Willy is in the dog house, which he could be. If that’s the case, he’s been there all year…..we should have traded him in December when we could have had a 1 for him, or another young player. or we should have waited until the offseason, when he still would have been worth at least the 2 2’s. unless something else is up.

      second thought…..coming back here every hour to see if something is up is like checking to see what the president tweeted. You know it’s something, and you know it’s not going to be good.

    187. djphan

      i think in a vacuum… this wasn’t a terrible trade…. if the decision to move on from wily was made… then his approximate market value would’ve been in the area of a late 1st or a high 2nd… we got two future high 2nds… which is about right i think….

      i just don’t agree with the decision to trade him…. esp if koq isn’t coming back… i’m pretty sure that same deal could’ve been made in the offseason once wily got more playing time…. and conceivable that he increases his stock….

      this is like punting on third down at midfield…

    188. Cock Jowles, Living through the Melo Era All Over Again

      Do you think there will ever be a biopic about James Dolan that is as much fun as The Disaster Artist?

    189. ClashFan

      @235
      Yeah, unless somehow Charlotte’s seconds in 2020 and 21 were somehow in demand, why do this deal right now?

      Maybe they are planning to use one or both of them as ammo in another trade? If so, this really needs to be a good trade, otherwise why not just wait?

      If one of the seconds was this year, you could then see them saying, “This upcoming draft is very deep, so we’d like another early second rounder this year.” So, there’s some urgency there if indeed that is the best that they could get at this time. But neither are 2018 picks, so…

    190. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      It could be they are still looking at a deal to move Noah for Biyombo (or trying to get Peyton) and they know they need picks, but don’t want to include a protected 1st.

      If they move Noah and a couple of 2nds for Biyombo, they have their backup C to replace O’Quinn and then can deal KOQ.

      Who knows what these guys are thinking.

    191. hoolahoop

      DUMB!!!!!
      Not only did we lose Willy for nothing, but just moved a big step closer to losing KP. Not only because they’re good friends, but KP wanted to see the knicks moving in the right direction. This isn’t it.
      We’re going to see a shell of KP next season. Then, he’ll sign with someone else, for less than max, and be their second option as his career takes off.
      DUMB!!!!!!

    192. Donnie Walsh

      It seems like just last June when people here were arguing that they wouldn’t trade Hernangomez for the #1 pick in this past year’s draft.

      So, that’s the divide between KB perceived value and actually real-life NBA value.

    193. Donnie Walsh

      Stratomatic says “I don’t care what we do at the deadline, as long as we win the deal”

      Hey, Stratomatic says “I don’t care what we do at the deadline, as long as we win the deal”, did we win the deal? (And do you care now?)

    194. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      Hey, Stratomatic says “I don’t care what we do at the deadline, as long as we win the deal”, did we win the deal? (And do you care now?)

      I’m in a state of melting down since last night. I don’t like the deal.

    195. ClashFan

      It’s been said that bad news comes rapidly in threes. So, KP tears ACL. Crappy Willy trade.

      What’s next?

    196. swiftandabundant

      The whole keep Willy bc he’s friends with KP is dumb. This isn’t grade school. And KP is going nowhere. He will take his extension with the Knicks bc now his value has dropped bc of this injury.

    197. ClashFan

      @247
      I agree with that. The friend thing doesn’t bother me about this trade. It is purely a value in value out thing. A good young player on a sweet contract is something you keep and build from, not discard for a couple of 2rp two or more years later on.

      However, if Isola’s report on speaking Spanish is true (I hope not), then that is some petty crap right there.

    198. Max

      @227 Ciao Farfa! :-)
      I don’t comment or read comments on P&T (but I read the articles),
      I’ve been here since Gallo’s years (fuck, the Carmelo’s trade… that’s one thing that I really hate) and deadline’s threads are always the funniest.

      If this blog start rooting for Virtus Bologna I’ll be out in a second, it’s like asking me to root for Boston… ;-)
      And you had Messina too! I love him as next Knicks coach…

    199. Donnie Walsh

      Imagine the conversations Noah and Willy must have had about Horny and the FO.

      In Spanish, no doubt.

    200. geo

      H0rnacek or someone in the FO didn’t like, or value, Willy. Hard to explain.

      nothing screams fuck you more than trading a guy looking for playing time to a team that already has 2 legitimate centers…

      i just don’t get why the hornets traded for willy – unless they just see him as a more valuable asset than 2 second round picks and an expiring non-impact player…

      to which – why is it so obvious to everyone but the knicks…

      i can’t imagine kp’s sitting there somewhere with his knee wrapped up thinking how the knicks just got better or did his buddy any favors – because they didn’t…

      always have thought kp’s next team would be in texas – dallas or san antonio…

    201. Brian Cronin

      that would be interesting… trading noah + the 2nds for biyombo would be a win….

      Biyomno is certainly better than Noah, but he’s signed for the same amount of time for roughly the same amount of money for a position where the Knicks are overstocked at, so I don’t think it would be much of a win. It’d be trading Willy just to have a less shitty highly-overpaid back-up back-up center.

    202. Early Bird

      Best I can come up with is that Willy and KP are best friends so Willy kept dragging KP out to the clubs or out of practice. In that case and pretty much only that case do I support this trade.

    203. Z-man

      Willy is in a genre of NBA players that is in very low demand right now. The trade was very poor asset management on its face, but in terms of low-cost efficient all-O no-D production from a tweener 5, I doubt that we’ll have much trouble replacing him.

    204. hoolahoop

      Here they were, with a logjam at center, a misallocaton of assets that should have been used to improve the team.

      Well, I guess they fixed the logjam at center.

    205. chrisk06811

      I’m going to keep the google translator open for more fun later. I did translate “Did you see how fat Bernard King got? but I couldn’t bring myself to post it.

    206. Kevin Udwary

      Biyombo made more sense when KP was healthy. It would be fun to watch those two play together and completely shut down any shots at the basket. It would kill you to play him with Kanter or O’Quinn, though. You’d have diminishing returns on his rebounding, and completely muck up the offense.

    207. Z-man

      By comparing KP to Matt Harvey, I mean that he thinks he’s much better than he is (e.g. his comment that his fellow NBA players know that he deserved to be an all-star starter), got anointed too quickly by the press, and developed a sense of entitlement based more on hype than on performance. There’s a smugness that I find repulsive, a veiled excuse-making in his weak post-loss mea culpa interviews, and an undertone that he’s more interested in the lifestyle than the work it takes to be truly great.

    208. Count de Pennies

      I’d like to propose a standardized unit of measurement that Nix fans can refer to whenever discussing any trades in the future.

      Just as the scientific world once honored Madame Curie by appropriating her name as a unit of measure for radioactivity, I’d suggest that Nix fans do the same to honor the worst trade in franchise history.

      Once we have established that 1 Curry=the known upper limit of terrible Nix trades, it becomes much easier to accurately measure all of the others. The Bargnani deal, for example, would have registered an impressive 876 milicurries. I doubt the Willy deal comes anywhere near such rarified heights. My initial reckoning is somewhere in the neighborhood of 200-250 mlc. I trust that Steve & Perry are capable of much, much more.

    209. Owen

      On an entirely different note, and because it’s my happy place, I would like to point out that Carmelo Anthony is butt. His usage is down 20% playing next to Russ and PG and his TS% is at 50.8%. I have to take my basketball related joy anywhere I can find it right now and the fact that I don’t have to watch Melo play basketball is the only thing Knicks related I actually feel good about.

    210. djphan

      biyombo could at least be a valid bench big for the remainder of the contract…. money-wise it’s a wash but if you want to rid yourself of noah… who provides zero value…. for someone who is also overpaid … but provides marginal value…. then in isolation that’s a win….

      you’re essentially trading biyombo for wily…. which isn’t a win… but the noah trade would supplement the badness of the other deal….

    211. ClashFan

      Oh, man. According to Begley, if KP did not get hurt, the “Knicks were planning to operate at the deadline as if they were competing for a playoff spot.”

      I’m about to have a nervous breakdown
      My head really hurts

    212. Cock Jowles, Living through the Melo Era All Over Again

      It’s been said that bad news comes rapidly in threes. So, KP tears ACL. Crappy Willy trade.

      What’s next?

      Noah gets stretched and wins a ring with Toronto.

    213. Max

      Spanish! That’s why we get rid of Calderon after KP first year…

      But really… even if this is true (and it obviously is lol) when did we start believing in Isola’s takes?

      Could KP’s injury and the trade of Kareem Abdul Hernangomez do that to a fanbase?

    214. geo

      Once we have established that 1 Curry=the known upper limit of terrible Nix trades, it becomes much easier to accurately measure all of the others. The Bargnani deal, for example, would have registered an impressive 876 milicurries. I doubt the Willy deal comes anywhere near such rarified heights. My initial reckoning is somewhere in the neighborhood of 200-250 mlc. I trust that Steve & Perry are capable of much, much more.

      i hate using lol – but, that was seriously funny…

    215. DRed

      Isola’s a piece of shit. Nobody likes people talking around them in other languages-it makes you feel uncomfortable. They also didn’t trade Willy because he speaks spanish to Kristaps.

      “Knicks were planning to operate at the deadline as if they were competing for a playoff spot.”

      This is far more believable and worrying. Perry doesn’t know what he’s doing.

    216. hoolahoop

      I can’t imagine Willy being too happy about this. Like, he has to live in Charlotte now, and he really liked being in NYC. Be careful what you wish for.
      Now, the knicks need to be really really smart to pick a second rounder as good as Willy.

    217. ClashFan

      Perry was quoted as saying that any trade the Knicks do would make sense both now and in the future.

      So, how does the Willy trade fulfill both of those?

      Now: gets malcontent off the team. I guess?
      Future: two probably/hopefully early second rounders.

    218. heavencent35

      Feeling sorry for KP hope he comeback better.
      Sorry for willy to as we have a lot of C. Hope the Knicks will get a great player in the lottery n hoping that next year will be the start of our competitive team

    219. DRed

      Matt Harvey was arguably one of the 4 or 5 best starting pitchers in baseball when he was 24. That wasn’t hype. He got hurt and he almost certainly has substance abuse problems.

      Harvey was better than Kristaps, but he also seemed to have problems of a different kind.

    220. chrisk06811

      the more I think about this, the more I just don’t get why we didn’t wait. with KP out, Willie was going to get 25 games worth of playing time that would have bumped his value up.

    221. djphan

      some good stuff in this article about kp’s injury.. the below was posted after kp’s rookie year:
      https://fansided.com/2018/02/07/kristaps-porzingis-torn-acl-franchise-altering-event-knicks/amp/

      Stotts says the Knicks would be wise to gather information on Porzingis’ biomechanics in order to develop a go-forward plan.

      “Is there a connectedness and smoothness to the ankle, the hip? Take that systematic approach to his body,” Stotts said. “If there is something very simple like he’s got tight glutes and that’s putting undue stress on his knee, you want to address that first before you start adding muscle mass. There’s plenty of ways that you can do that — whether it’s range-of-motion activities, strength-training exercises. Some guys do plyometrics — depending on what exactly that weak link in the chain is.

      “Then if there’s not any areas of concern and you feel that his overall biomechanical rhythm is good, then you start working on some strength training. But also, you want to start doing basketball-related activities.”

      An accumulation of minor injuries isn’t necessarily a cause for concern in and of itself, but that changes when the injuries are all to the same side of the body, which is true of Porzingis.

      “It would be irresponsible to ignore the fact that he’s had a left quad injury, a left hip injury, a left IT band injury, all these things in the left,” Stotts said. “Maybe there is something going on with that left kinetic chain. What you really need to do is address the weakest link in that chain if there is something that’s causing him to have a problem in that left side. You got to make sure that these seemingly minor things aren’t all connected and result in something major.”

    222. ClashFan

      I love the Curry as the unit of bad Knicks deals.

      As a Mets fan, we have the Ryan. I think that 1 Ryan is equal to 10 or more Currys.

      If you are not a Mets fan, they traded a young Nolan Ryan for a washed up Jim Fregosi (who I think retired after one bad year with the Mets). Ryan went on to become one of the greatest pitchers in baseball history.

      I guess the Red Sox have that one beat, though, with the Ruth unit…

      Just to put this all in perspective…
      :-)

    223. Count de Pennies

      Perhaps Dolan – an enthusiastic Trumpista – overheard Spanish being spoken and immediately sent word to Perry to unload Willy for whatever he could get prior to the March 5 expiration date of the DACA program.

    224. Zanzibar

      I doubt deal is a prelude to an Orlando trade because a 3-way deal would have been very simple.
      TRADE 1 – No Payton
      TRADE 2 – Payton

      Occam’s Razor: Knicks didn’t like WHG for a variety of reasons. Other teams were offering two 2nd round picks and NYK deemed Hornets were the best value.

    225. Max

      @274 Kobe uses to speak with Vujacic in italian, nobody ever said anything about it. It’s one thing to speak unknown languages to exclude someone on purpose, and a totally different one to do it when you have a one on one conversation and someone is casually around (or when you’re helping someone that’s new with english).

    226. iserp

      Seriously WTF. The Hornets taking massive advantage of a sellers market, even though they themselves are sellers.

      Our FO is completely incompetent.

    227. ClashFan

      The Clips extended Lou Williams. Might that slightly improve the market for Lee?

      I’m trying to feel good about something Knicks related.

    228. Max

      @281 Very interesting stuff

      One of the things that worry me about KP’s injury (not counting the Pelton’s article) is that he’s really a “one in a generation” from a body point of view, so there’s no real reference about recovery.

      Who’s his closest comp? Shawn Bradley?

    229. thenamestsam

      “The Knicks were planning to operate at the deadline as though they were in a situation with no conceivable relationship to the situation they were actually in”. Makes sense.

    230. ClashFan

      @290
      What’s funny about that is, I think, Mills has been claiming that he was the one who got Phil to draft Willy!

      Now, he dumps Willy for a couple of future seconds?

    231. Zanzibar

      I hope Knicks trade Courtney for just cap space (e.g., Aldrich’s expiring contract) if that’s all there is. There’s gonna be some interesting signings available this summer since many teams won’t have cap space. For example, if we have a lot of cap, one idea might be to offer Hezonja 8m/yr on a 2 year deal where the 2nd year is a team option? He’s improved some the past few months so might be a low-risk deal. If he breaks out, we might have our SF.

      So GSW is offering 2nd round pick for KOQ, not Looney or 30th pick?

    232. Max

      24 hrs to the deadline, come on FO guys around the league, I want fireworks!

      Just in, trade of the day (I’m not joking):
      Yankees acquire Russell Wilson from Rangers, assign him to Double A Trenton. Yes, that Russell Wilson.

      Fuck! They must trade for Noah!

    233. djphan

      I think kp is close to bradley… even though hes more athletic and slightly shorter….

      Hes going to have a grueling rehab… and hopefully he puts in the work… but i wouldnt say its a given he has a full recovery…. but thats speculation for next season…

    234. KJG

      Willy will be back overseas in 5 years, or with the Spurs… my bet is overseas… I’m not getting too worked up over this one… everything sucks… this just sucks a little… other stuff sucks more… my feelings have undertones of apathy…

    235. 2FOR18, understands math

      I can’t believe someone on an advanced stats oriented site would say Nolan Ryan was one of the greatest pitchers in history.
      Nolan Ryan = Dominique Wilkins

    236. Donnie Walsh

      I stopped following baseball a long time ago now, but in my day it was the 36-year-old Doyle Alexander for 20-year-old John Smoltz that registered the most milicurries.

    237. MSA

      This team is unbelieveble…

      I didn’t watch any game since december and I don’t feel like i’m goink to see another this season.

      I need to find a second team…

    238. Aten

      This is what the market will bear. That’s the silver lining. The market is still stupid. A guy with a .187 WP48 in 1500 minutes under team control for two more years on a second-round contract goes from our third string to somebody else’s for effectively nothing. You can get bribed to take Kenneth Faried. San Antonio likes guys like Aldridge and Rudy Gay now and might let Kyle Anderson walk. This is not even low-hanging fruit. It’s on the ground. Everywhere. You could trip over it. Which is pretty much what we have to hope for because this team is and always will be run by idiots.

    239. Jack Bauer

      300+ posts today – impressive. everybody’s got something to say.

      Hopefully they don’t regret trading Willy, we’ll have to see. If they weren’t going to play him then it seems like no big loss either way.

      They need to get into the top 7-8 picks or so to get a chance at an impact player. The front office also needs to not fuck up the pick of course.

    240. Zanzibar

      Once we have established that 1 Curry=the known upper limit of terrible Nix trades

      Well we gave Orlando a 2nd round pick to hire Perry so maybe any 2RP should be referred to as “a Perry”. We just got 2 Perrys for WHG. Maybe we could include Perry himself (not a Perry) in any Orlando deal: We give them Perry and a Perry for Payton. There’s no restriction on trading a GM to original team within a year like there is for players, right?

    241. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      I’m hoping that waiving J.O.B. is about making a trade where we take back another player and not because we really thought two 2nd round picks would be extra valuable.

      I mean at least we have a front office that values picks, right? I can’t get myself too worked up about this deal as much as I acknowledge it’s a dumb one.

    242. 2FOR18, understands math

      The horrible Alexander trade at least got the Tigers to the playoffs, but yeah, that was brutal. One of my favorites of those types of trades was the Mets trading a young Scott Kazmir for Victor Zambrano. I’m still convinced that the Mets thought they were getting Carlos Zambrano.

    243. 2FOR18, understands math

      The “curry” idea is great. I propose another metric, the “isiah”, for redundant acquisitions. i.e. signing Hardaway when you already had Lee and had no PGs, = .80 isiahs.

    244. Max

      @312
      You’re absolutely right, but the fact that in the end we trade Wilt Hernangomez for the exact same picks that we gave away is hilarious… Life is a circle :-)

    245. ClashFan

      @298

      I can’t believe someone on an advanced stats oriented site would say Nolan Ryan was one of the greatest pitchers in history.
      Nolan Ryan = Dominique Wilkins

      You must not be a long suffering Mets fan!
      :-)

      No surprise JOB is being waived. Cap space!
      :-)

      So, which of the two way guys is coming up?

    246. Max

      Kornet, because we need a center… and FO believes he’s a poor man KP, so probably he could start… :-)

    247. Zanzibar

      Well we gave Orlando a 2nd round pick to hire Perry so maybe any 2RP should be referred to as “a Perry”.

      Sorry it was Kings not Orlando but it’s easy to confuse those two teams. BTW they were always gonna trade WHG by deadline so bizarre that Hornacek put him in last game for 2 minutes of garbage time. What if he suffered a serious injury? Is front office and coach communicating or does Hornacek just hate WHG? Kinda like him pulling Noah from that game?

    248. bidiong

      I know what Dolan is trying to do. He wants us to volunteer to run the front office instead of asking for pay to run it correctly.

    249. d-mar

      Rich Cho phone call to Scott Perry:

      “Hey, Scott, what’s up? We really like Hernangomez, how about Johnny O’Bryant and our 2nd round picks in 2027 and 2028?”

      “C’mon Rich that’s insulting!”

      “Ok, you drive a hard bargain, Perry, how about I move those pics up to 2020 and 2021?”

      Perry with a self-satisfied smile: “Done deal!”

    250. DRed

      I’d like us to give that big from UNC on the Westies a look now. If he’s good we can sign him to a one year deal or trade him for a second round pick.

    251. ClashFan

      @321
      Isiah Hicks? And if he’s not so good, a two year/9m deal with the second year being a player option?

    252. Max

      @318 Who say tanking wouldn’t be painful?
      Brace yourself, the next two years’ll be a looong walk through the desert…

      (does anybody remember 1985-87 years when at some point Cartwright, King AND Ewing were all injured and we started the likes of Ken Bannister and Eddie Lee Wilkins?)

    253. DRed

      I am okay with tanking/rebuilding whatever but it’s pretty clear that is only good if the people running the team aren’t idiots.

    254. ClashFan

      @323

      (does anybody remember 1985-87 when at some point Cartwright, King AND Ewing were all injured and we started the likes of Ken Bannister and Eddie Lee Wilkins?)

      From a Knickerblogger thread in 2045:

      Does anybody remember 2017-18 when at some point we started the likes of Jarrett Jack and Michael Beasley!

    255. nicos

      I’d like us to give that big from UNC on the Westies a look now. If he’s good we can sign him to a one year deal or trade him for a second round pick.

      Do the Knicks have an option on Hicks? I do think that it’s possible that the Knicks feel like he can duplicate whatever WHG might have given them- He’s not the rebounder Willie is but the offensive numbers are similar and he averaging 2 blocks and nearly one steal pg in 29 minutes. Still, as DRed said they’d probably just squander whatever value he might have anyway.

    256. djphan

      lou williams is signing an extension with the clips… which seems like good news for a potential lee deal….

    257. JK47

      The last game of the season is a road game against the Cavs.

      You just know Timmy is going to have some huge game and that some scrub who is this year’s answer to Maurice Ndour is going to hit some last second game-winning shot that fucks up our draft position.

      That’s the most quintessentially Knicksy thing: rooting for them to lose, and they win instead. It’s like an annual ritual.

    258. nicos

      lou williams is signing an extension with the clips… which seems like good news for a potential lee deal….

      Tyreke Evans and maybe Rodney Hood will still get moved before Lee.

    259. Grocer

      No surprise JOB is being waived. Cap space!

      Next year’s I guess, but then why trade him now? Oh, I get it. To free up a roster spot.

    260. ClashFan

      Serious question: how often in NBA history has a team had a guy on the All-Rookie team and then traded him before the end of the next year without getting a 1st rounder or decent player back?

      I’m guessing that it is pretty rare.

      And then narrow to such players who didn’t even play much that next year despite not being injured? And, finally, were on very team-friendly deals?

    261. ess-dog

      Hicks and Kornet? Jesus, I think the Knicks believe that they can just plug guys into their “system” and the team will be a force for years to come.

    262. Donnie Walsh

      Serious question: how often in NBA history has a team had a guy on the All-Rookie team and then traded him before the end of the next year without getting a 1st rounder or decent player back?

      Jahlil Okafor, Nerlens Noel, and Trey Burke were all recent members of the all-rookie team that we’re traded for 2nd round picks. (It’s not as illustrious as it sounds, and, honestly, rookie accolades shouldn’t mean much going forward).

    263. Farfa

      I just realized what our next trade is going to be. KOQ for Tyler Johnson. Why? This year Tyler makes 5.8 millions. Next one he makes 19.2, it’s just too Knicksy not to happen

    264. Max

      @333
      Michael Carter Williams was ROY in 2013-2014, traded to MILW in 2014-2015 in a 3 teams deal, that didn’t include star players but a first rounder:

      February 19, 2015: As part of a 3-team trade, traded by the Philadelphia 76ers to the Milwaukee Bucks; the Milwaukee Bucks traded Brandon Knight and Kendall Marshall to the Phoenix Suns; the Phoenix Suns traded Tyler Ennis and Miles Plumlee to the Milwaukee Bucks; and the Phoenix Suns traded a 2018 1st round draft pick to the Philadelphia 76ers. (PHI 1st round pick received from PHO is LAL’s and is top-5 protected in 2015 and top-3 protected in 2016 & 2017. Became unprotected 2018 pick)

      At the time it made news, then everybody understand that is numbers were fake and he’s not a good player…

    265. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      Biyomno is certainly better than Noah, but he’s signed for the same amount of time for roughly the same amount of money for a position where the Knicks are overstocked at, so I don’t think it would be much of a win. It’d be trading Willy just to have a less shitty highly-overpaid back-up back-up center.

      If they are planning to move Q’Quinn, they would actually have a bit of a shortage at C with Willy gone, Noah exiled, and KP out. If you move Noah for Biyombo, that frees you to trade O’Quinn and Biyombo becomes your energy guy off the bench behind Kanter.

      It doesn’t help us much in terms of cap and I would argue that Biyombo is so bad on offense it’s a downgrade from both O’Quinn and Willy as a backup, but at least there is some logic to the thought process. Baby steps for these guys. :-)

    266. Jack Bauer

      “I am okay with tanking/rebuilding whatever but it’s pretty clear that is only good if the people running the team aren’t idiots.”

      Well Steve Mills has already demonstrated he is an idiot so that only leaves us hope for Perry

    267. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      Couldn’t they at least have gotten their 2019 and 2020 picks? Was that really impossible?

      It was their way of demonstrating their long term thinking. lol

    268. mase

      Still doesn’t add up…Is it possible perry and mills see koq as part of the future and therefore whg was expendable?
      From that perspective it makes sense to get two picks for a player you have no need for but Do they then think they can get some hometown discount for koq in the offseason let alone Do we have any need for koq as a backup center?
      Trying to make sense of this … So far I got nothing.

    269. Jack Bauer

      “The reason for 2nd rounders is that once in a while you’re lucky enough to get a Willy.”

      ….and then trade him away for more 2nd round picks and start over again – brilliant

    270. Max

      @341
      It’s a subtle move by the FO, they timed exactly for the end of Shaquille Hernangomez’s contract,
      so they can sign him to a 4yrs/72mil contract.
      “See guys? We have WHG and the picks! Are we geniuses right?”

    271. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      @343

      That’s another scenario. Maybe they want and expect to keep KOQ through another contract. So they took the best offer available for Willy since he was not part of their long term plans anyway (I’m not saying I agree). We are going to find out what their thinking is shorty, but my fear is that there is no plan and they are not thinking.

    272. Max

      @343
      There are too many things that we don’t know.

      Maybe Willy is lazy, or stunk in practice, or he’s too busy chasing blondes and/or sharing coke with Harvey… Who knows? Maybe we must ask Isola…

      Or maybe they’re orchestrating a new trade, or extending KOQ or they have a sexual addiction on second rounders…

      Nah… chances are it’s only that our FO is dumb. I like a lot more when answers are simple. :-)

    273. ClashFan

      @346

      It’s a subtle move by the FO, they timed exactly for the end of Shaquille Hernangomez’s contract,
      so they can sign him to a 4yrs/72mil contract.
      “See guys? We have WHG and the picks! Are we geniuses right?”

      Well, Mills just pulled something like that off by signing Hardaway. So, he might be trying it again with Willy! If it works once…
      :-)

    274. 2FOR18, understands math

      @323 yes I remember the Animal and Eddie Lee nightmare season. I also recall 160 pound Louis Orr at power forward

    275. hoolahoop

      Maybe an intern mixed up their excel sheet. They thought Willy had a player option for $18 million next year and Kanter was locked up long term, cheap.

    276. Max

      @351 So for us this’ll be a walk in the park :-)

      Eddie Lee played one year for my team in the Italian League (with Reggie Theus)… and we got relegated! :-D

    277. dtrickey

      Not sure how I feel about the trade. Still reeling from the KP injury.

      This might be one of those moves you need to look at in conjunction with any other deadline moves, but until that happens, the trade is what it is. It could well be the case that Willy was out of the rotation because he gets schooled in practice, so he internally may not have been valued as high as what we believe. If that’s the case, 2 seconds and a bit of cap relief is okay, but it would have been nice to get those picks for 2018 and 2019.

      Hard to get value for a guy playing 3rd string center, so I can’t imagine there would have been a whole lot on offer. It kind of seemed that they may have been playing the long game with Willy, but he and his management may have got fed up with waiting (fair enough potentially). Even if there wasn’t much on offer, still probably makes more sense to hang on to him for the interim. I think this is one of those times where there is a lot going on behind closed doors that contributed, but still not inconceivable there were better options out there.

    278. english_knick

      Kanter our tomorrow.

      So, a few hours after the deadline and we enter our next game with one active big on the roster. I guess we sorted our logjam…

    279. ClashFan

      Checked out Herring’s tweets, and while he does generally think the Willy trade is okay, he did say this;

      “The real problem wasn’t trading him — it was failing to play him in a rebuilding year.”

    280. dtrickey

      FYI rotation looks rooted when you look at the outs.

      Baker – done for season
      KP – done for season
      Noah – exile
      Kanter – mouth surgery
      Willy – traded

      Time to release the Bees ha ha. Would like to see Kornet get a call up. May as well at this point.

    281. danvt

      OK Breathe. Really sorry to see KP6 go down. Dag. And that injury makes me nervous that he’ll be forever diminished. Anyone have analysis of the long term consequences of this type of injury? Z-Man? If he comes back to 100% there’s a silver lining if we go full tank now, but you never wish for this.

      As to Wily, he lost his job to Luke Kornet. Maybe you’re skeptical because it’s the Knicks. I don’t blame you. Management has certainly made horrible decisions in the past. It seems like, if they do it, it must be stupid, but that doesn’t mean, in this case, it necessarily is. He couldn’t crack the rotation, so we flipped him for future assets and created a roster spot for someone we thought could play better. It might be a stupid move and that wouldn’t be unprecedented, but this could very easily go down as a footnote or maybe, in a perfect world, as one of Brian Cronin’s unsung moments in NYK history, “When Luke Kornet finally made the big club”.

    282. Clyde's suit

      I think most you guys have are seriously predisposed to thinking the Knicks can’t do anything right. Willie was a second round pick who has pretty much looked like SHIT all year. People harp on Kanter’s defensive issues, well he Kanter looked liked Ewing compared to the effort I’ve seen Wille put forth on defense this year. I’m pretty confident that at least 1 of those 2nd rd picks will turn to be at least as good as Willie.

      Good luck in Charlotte my dude.

      I’m much more concerned about what we get for Lee.

    283. Z-man

      Anyone have analysis of the long term consequences of this type of injury? Z-Man?

      Isola had a prominent ACL surgeon on this AM (forget his name) who said that KP has no analog for comparison in the age of the “modern” ACL repair/rehab regimen. So who knows?

      My guess is that he comes back relatively intact and learns to play more like a “below the rim” big who uses his height rather than leaping ability to impact the game. If he insists on playing like, say, AD and Durantrather than , say, Pau Gasol or Dirk, he’s gonna have trouble staying healthy.

    284. latke

      Willy was never gonna be a great player. His ceiling was Enes Kanter. I agree with people saying we completely mismanaged him. He should have gotten minutes, and with his super low salary, I think he would have had quite a bit of value to top a team at/near the tax that needed another big man, similar to how Mozgov got the Nuggets 2 first rounders from Cleveland just because his salary was palatable to Cleveland.

      This trade though is not that catastrophic. The catastrophic trade will be bribing a team to take Noah. If that happens, it’ll be a big step back to the Isiah days.

    285. TheOakmanCometh

      I argued for a Willy trade last summer. At the time, people here said that was crazy and that he was a core piece. But he wasn’t. He’s not a modern NBA center. I strongly doubt he’ll ever be a starter. So by that measure, this was a roughly fair value in a terrible market for centers and a bad sellers market generally.

      That said, Willy’s value gets higher when he plays because he puts up counting stats. Rather than selling low, we should have played him now and sold in the offseason, when his value might be closer to what it was last summer. There was little to lose by holding onto him another few months. His trade value wasn’t going to slip much below 2 distant 2nd round picks.

    286. TheOakmanCometh

      Somebody said earlier that the Knicks never know how to do asset management correctly. That’s exactly right. They don’t think strategically about how to maximize gains and minimize losses, or how to balance risk and reward.

    287. Hubert

      I think most you guys have are seriously predisposed to thinking the Knicks can’t do anything right

      So you mean we’ve been paying attention?

    288. Hubert

      Btw I love this “maybe he was getting schooled in practice” theory. He put up great numbers in actual NBA games.

      You know who else is probably sucking ass in team scrimmages? Frank. Should we trade him, too?

    289. dtrickey

      Btw I love this “maybe he was getting schooled in practice” theory. He put up great numbers in actual NBA games.

      You know who else is probably sucking ass in team scrimmages? Frank. Should we trade him, too?

      I am not sure I have read anyone saying that because he sucked at practice, the trade is justified. I think the reasoning that has been put forward is that because he might be getting outdone at practice by every other center on the roster, he may not have been valued as highly internally compared to what we perceived, hence why they may have been comfortable agreeing to move him after he demanded a trade. That’s obviously not necessarily enough to sell low, but given the expectations for him coming into the season, and if he can’t surpass KOQ and Kanter after having a solid rookie season, then there may have been some question marks. Again not suggesting that’s a good enough reason to trade him for what we got.

    290. bidiong

      By going for the playoffs the Knicks killed his trade value in the name of Veteran presence. Our front office misjudged our ability to compete as usual and is now changing direction too late, as usual.

    291. thenoblefacehumper

      I’m pretty confident that at least 1 of those 2nd rd picks will turn to be at least as good as Willie.

      History says this is one of the dumber bets you could make.

    292. hoolahoop

      It could well be the case that Willy was out of the rotation because he gets schooled in practice

      Probably so. Kanter schools most starting centers in the league getting paid exponentially more than Willy.

    293. latke

      TheOakmanCometh: Somebody said earlier that the Knicks never know how to do asset management correctly. That’s exactly right. They don’t think strategically about how to maximize gains and minimize losses, or how to balance risk and reward.

      Phil Jackson came out and said that he was “opposed to thinking transactionally” and preferred to think “transformatively” or something of the sort, which I interpret to basically mean, “We’re not gonna gamify team building. We’re just gonna focus on being the best team we can be each season, and the power of that culture of winning will make all our players better.”

      And I think Mills/Perry have said the same thing in a less pretentious way.

      So it’s not like the front office just doesn’t understand how to improve players’ value and how to win trades at the margins. It’s that they don’t believe in that strategy as a whole. God could come down and say, “Hey Scott Perry, my Godly math skills tell me that this trade will on average get you more talent in the long run,” and Perry might still refuse to do it if he felt it threatened the magical culture he was building.

    294. hoolahoop

      There are only a few ways to improve talent. FA and team signings, draft picks, and trades. The knicks consistently lose trades and sign bad contracts year after year after year.

    295. Ben R

      The only rational reason for the Willy trade is that he asked for a trade and didn’t want to stay and the front office moved him now as a favor. I don’t know if I buy it but if he wanted to move and the team had no real long-term plans for him then moving him could have just been doing him a solid which matters since KP is his best friend.

      Still terrible trade. No reason not to at least play a lot him for the rest of the year and see if his value increases. Worst case he has no value and you lose out on tw0 future 2nds which have almost zero value, best case you get actual value in a trade or decide to keep him.

    296. hoolahoop

      I’ve followed this forum for years, and have never seen a consensus to this extent. Even Bargnani had people on both sides.
      There’s just no case for not giving Willy minutes, and letting him go for what will probably turn out to be nothing.
      The knicks pick high and draft well. For anyone that thinks this isn’t a horrible trade, lookup knicks 2nd round picks for the past 15 years. Two guys survived in the league (Trevor Ariza and Landry Fields). Trevor, their best 2nd round pick, was traded in his second season.

    297. ptmilo

      there’s so little to say about KP’s injury and how bad a moment this is for us; almost nothing really except the few brave souls who heroically tried to put lipstick on the pig last night. so it makes sense that it’s mostly 400 posts exhaustively analyzing the trade of
      hernangomez for 2 second round picks. still i can’t help but think of how strange it will seem to the curious archive surfer in 2023 wondering what everyone was thinking the day after the big acl tear and finding this. so let me point out the obvious that this is a fucking horrible day to be a diehard knick fan. and that’s relative to the low level horror that’s been the knick fan baseline for most of the past 18 years. porzingis might recover okay but he also might not, and odds are pretty good that even in a decent outcome we’ll always have to wonder about the best case counterfactual for the most hopeful and interesting young player we’ve had in recent memory. plus for those of us who watch even the stupidest of games, the next 80 or so games just went from blah to utter shit. unless we win the lottery and get doncic then forget all this.

    298. ClashFan

      Is there any reason right now, at all, NOT to go complete and total unabashed tank for the rest of this year and the next?

      The Knicks have their own first rounders this year and the next. Make the most of them.

      Gather ye rosebuds while ye may. Gather as many interesting young players as possible and play them. Picks, too, if possible.

    299. hoolahoop

      The KP injury was a horrible accident. Everyone feels the pain.
      Willy’s trade was a self inflicted low IQ error by the FO, that has a terrible history of plays like this.

    300. TheOakmanCometh

      Just saw the terms of the Lou Williams contract. Clips got a great deal. 3 for $24 with the last year a team option.

      Yes Steve Mills, there is such a thing as a team option.

    301. Frank

      I’m actually semi-intrigued to see Kornet and Hicks play. kornet shot 44% from 3 on nearly 200 attempts and almost 2 blocks per 36. He also had nearly 50% of his shot attempts come from 3 so he’s a classic stretch 5 who has some rim protection traits. Might be interesting and maybe the FO actually just liked him better for the modern NBA than they liked Willy.

      Boy I can really be optimistic about anything lol

    302. Knick fan not in NJ at this time

      From a market point of view, draft picks are worth so much in trades now and centers so little Perry probably got what is reasonable market value for WHG. That doesn’t mean I like the trade. WHG could very much end up a good role player like Ariza, and for many years too. But the free roster spot is valuable, and I hope they use it well.

    303. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      Willy Hernangomez is definitely the next Knicks player who goes on to be a good ball player after the Knicks gave up on him.

    304. geo

      I’m actually semi-intrigued to see Kornet and Hicks play. kornet shot 44% from 3 on nearly 200 attempts and almost 2 blocks per 36. He also had nearly 50% of his shot attempts come from 3 so he’s a classic stretch 5 who has some rim protection traits. Might be interesting and maybe the FO actually just liked him better for the modern NBA than they liked Willy.

      Boy I can really be optimistic about anything lol

      hahahahahaha, too funny frank – i swear – i told myself that same lie a couple of hours ago…who knows – it might even be true…

      the knicks are just such a long, big grim wave washing over everything – i have to keep reminding myself things aren’t really that serious…

    305. ess-dog

      I mean, Kornet as a longer, taller Novak could be fun to watch at least. But we need to add a lot more talent, and not 2nd round talent.

    306. d-mar

      This Minnesota-Cleveland game is crazy, 138-138 in OT. LeBron 35-15-10., just rejected Butler, probably double OT.

    307. hoolahoop

      LeBron just won it, insane

      But how?
      With an insane help defense block.
      Then, an even more insane play with 1 second left. Catch 1/2 court pass and shoot fadeaway near top of key with Butler in his face.
      He’s not human.

    308. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      Shamorie Ponds with back to back wins against top 5 opponents. He’s playing up his draft stock, and he’s doing it for a terrible St Johns team.

    309. Cock Jowles, Living through the Melo Era All Over Again

      Suns getting beaten by 47 after 3 quarters, putting them at risk of relegation into the G-League.

      Any chance we could trade them Kanter or O’Quinn for a future second? Should be a good pick since they’re going to be so bad. Maybe we could throw in a first as a sweetener. Do you think they’d give us back another 2nd if we add a lottery pick?

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