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Tuesday, December 12, 2017

Knicks Morning News (2017.11.11)

  • [NY Newsday] Kristaps Porzingis expected to play Saturday night vs. Kings
    (Friday, November 10, 2017 7:28:01 PM)

    Coach Jeff Hornacek said on Friday that he expects Kristaps Porzingis to play on Saturday night when the Knicks host the Kings at Madison Square Garden.

  • [NY Newsday] Joakim Noah back with Knicks on Monday after PED ban ends
    (Friday, November 10, 2017 7:13:29 PM)

    Joakim Noah will return to the Knicks’ active roster on Monday as a 20-game suspension for using performance-enhancing drugs that began last season comes to an end. The veteran center will have missed the Knicks’ first 12 games of this season, including Saturday’s home date with the Kings.

  • [NY Newsday] Kristaps Porzingis to Mike Francesa: ‘First time, long time’
    (Friday, November 10, 2017 3:09:00 PM)

    Kristaps Porzingis–citizen of Mongo Nation?

  • [NYPost] Chauncey Billups getting career advice from Knicks front office
    (Friday, November 10, 2017 7:03:56 PM)

    Chauncey Billups wants to be Scott Perry one day. Billups, the former All-Star guard for the Pistons, Nuggets and Knicks, spent three days earlier this week shadowing Perry at the Garden. The Knicks’ first-year general manager has known Billups since he was in high school and Perry was an assistant at California, then at Michigan….

  • [NYPost] Kristaps Porzingis ‘ready to go’ but durability issues linger
    (Friday, November 10, 2017 12:14:55 PM)

    Kristaps Porzingis’ sore ankle and elbow that forced him to miss the second night of a back-to-back Wednesday in Orlando has healed. The 7-foot-3 unicorn was back at full-contact practice Friday and ready to dominate the Kings on Saturday at the Garden. Knicks coach Jeff Hornacek said Wednesday the back-to-back set was no factor in…

  • [NYPost] Where does Joakim Noah fit in Knicks’ logjam?
    (Friday, November 10, 2017 8:52:34 AM)

    Joakim Noah doesn’t know how much or if he’ll play with the club’s center glut, but he’s delighted his drug suspension is about to end “to help in any way.’’ Noah will miss the final contest of his 20-game suspension Saturday when the Knicks (6-5) host the Kings (3-8), then be back on the 15-man…

  • [NYPost] Jimmer Fredette, Stephon Marbury get in shoving match in China
    (Friday, November 10, 2017 7:04:52 AM)

    Washed-up former Knicks fight! While the newly excited young Knicks continue to impress early in the NBA season, two former players were busy duking it out abroad during a game in China. Ex-Knicks and Chinese superstars Jimmer Fredette and Stephon Marbury got physical during a Chinese Basketball Association game Friday after Marbury gave Fredette some…

  • [NYPost] The Thunder look broken — and it’s happening at the worst time
    (Friday, November 10, 2017 6:37:57 AM)

    The Knicks have been one of the NBA’s pleasant surprises this season. Carmelo Anthony’s new team has been a surprise, as well, but for all the wrong reasons. The Thunder lost to the Nuggets 102-94 on Thursday night, and are now 4-7 this season. Oklahoma City has lost four games in a row and is…

  • [NYTimes] Keeping Score: James Harden Beats LeBron James While Equaling Michael Jordan
    (Friday, November 10, 2017 5:13:44 PM)

    In the Rockets’ win over the Cavaliers, Harden became the first player since Jordan in 1989 to have at least 35 points, 10 rebounds, 10 assists and 5 steals in a game.

  • [NYTimes] 10 Early Surprises in the N.B.A.
    (Friday, November 10, 2017 4:34:05 PM)

    The Pistons and Magic are good, the Cavs are not, and Blake Griffin is shooting 3s.

  • [ESPN] Knicks expect Porzingis to return vs. Kings
    (Friday, November 10, 2017 1:30:03 PM)

    Knicks expect Porzingis to return vs. Kings

  • [NYDN] Porzingis expected to be back in Knicks lineup Saturday vs. Kings
    (Friday, November 10, 2017 8:42:52 AM)

    Expect a unicorn sighting on Saturday night at the Garden.

  • [NYDN] Knicks’ Joakim Noah calls PED ban ‘very humbling’ as it nears end
    (Friday, November 10, 2017 8:41:32 AM)

    Joakim Noah’s 20-game ban for performance-enhancing drugs dating back to last March will be completed on Monday.

  • [NYDN] Stephon Marbury and Jimmer Fredette get into shoving match
    (Friday, November 10, 2017 7:50:32 AM)

    Stephon Marbury doesn’t look like he’s happy about Jimmer Fredette making waves in the Chinese Basketball Association.

  • [SNY Knicks] Noah humbled by suspension, ready to make impact with Knicks this season
    (Friday, November 10, 2017 6:11:48 PM)

    Knicks C Joakim Noah has learned a lot from his 20-game PED suspension as he awaits his comeback.

  • [SNY Knicks] Porzingis practiced in full on Friday after missing Wednesday’s game
    (Friday, November 10, 2017 12:15:56 PM)

    Porzingis has battled bursitis in his elbow for years, which he aggravated during Tuesday night’s win against Charlotte.

  • 49 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.11.11)

    1. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      I’m not gonna lie to you guys. If this season falls apart and we end up picking high, DeAndre Ayton looks like he’s going to be the best player drafted since Anthony Davis. Luka Doncic isn’t the same level of prospect as Ayton, and Doncic might be the most decorated lottery pick ever. Arizona is going to be excellent and may win it all this year, so you’ll see what I’m talking about. Watching Ayton is like watching a Hall of Fame big from the 80s-90s play in the modern game; he’s intelligent, he has a post game, he can face up, he’s an intimidator on the inside, and he can shoot it comfortably from the mid range.

      If Porzingis opts to get that elbow procedure done and shut it down post ASG in the name of all things tank, Ayton is my guy. Even if Doncic and Porter Jr were on the board and considering our depth at center, the idea of Ayton and Porzingis in the same front court is just too tantalizing. It would be like if Dallas had Dirk and Chandler (and Ayton is way more talented at 19 than Chandler ever was) together for a decade instead of only 2011.

      Here’s a link to his debut game. Competition be damned, you can tell he’s a cut above everyone on both teams: https://youtu.be/fBAEk7A8XNA

    2. lavor postell

      Of course, he was compared to Melo before the draft by some, and that never goes over too well here.

      Yeah, this definitely nuked his stock among Knicks fans. The thing is Melo was a very effective player for a very long time and the knock on him wasn’t that he couldn’t pass, defend, rebound, etc. it’s that he didn’t do enough of it. I believe if he had been drafted to the Pistons and had to fit in as a cog instead of being given star treatment and role from the jump would have developed into a far more well rounded player.

      I believe at the time of the draft BC and I were higher on him than most here, but generally everybody seemed to think he’d be a quality rotation level at least 3/4. It was really just about whether or not you thought he’d develop into some all offense ISO chucker or whether he could come along in playing within a team concept on offense and give effort on D.

    3. Bruno Almeida

      The issue with the Melo comparisons for Tatum was the fact that my logic was: if he has a mid range, iso based game, but does so at a middling efficiency in college, it should be even harder for him to get his shots consistently against faster, stronger and more athletic opposition.

      I think he will indeed come back to earth, but he has shown far more promising signs than I expected and he is a lot more versatile and smart than I gave him credit for. I hate to admit I was wrong when it’s the Celtics benefiting from that hahaha.

    4. lavor postell

      @Bruno

      Yeah, I think I posted his splits before the draft, but he played through an injury through most of the non-conference schedule, but was healthy for most of the ACC season. You could see that his percentages all went up and I think his 3P% increase came while also increasing the number he was taking. Obviously with small sample sizes in college it’s guesswork as to what’s legitimate improvement and a hot streak, but on film the form on his jumper always looked pure so I believed it. I do think that if the Celtics had passed up on him at 3 there was a decent chance he could have fallen to the Knicks.

    5. danvt

      From Zanzibar in the last thread:

      Whatever happened to this season not being about wins but developing our young players? Sure they may be playing Lee to try to trade him but him playing 27mpg versus 32mpg doesn’t hurt that goal one iota. And then there’s Willy and Baker’s minutes. I don’t have confidence in Hornacek or this front office.

      The answer to the first question is that this would have cost us games that we won. We came back and just beat DEN and CHA. Would you trade those wins for a few minutes of player development? Maybe in April if you’re 5 games out of a playoff spot but coach isn’t doing that right now. Your second assumption, Hornacek, is playing Lee so he can trade him, is just not true. “Better” minds here may evaluate him differently, looking at his cap # or some other BS but coach is, in the immortal words of Herm Edwards, “Playing to win the game”. As to Baker’s NTC and Wily’s golden boy status, they didn’t win jobs and have to wait. If Noah helps win games right now he should play. The point is, whatever some posters here want, coach wants playoffs, KP6 wants playoffs, ownership wants playoffs, NYC fans want playoffs, and I’m down with that right now. I’ve seen too many 20 point first quarter deficits in the last 15 years. I want to have some fun now. If we have injuries, if the league adjusts and stops KP, sure, I’ll get on to other priorities.

      A lot of posts here are a bit 2016 in perspective. This season has been THRILLING so far. KP6 is the best player we’ve had since Ewing and that’s no hollow echo. He’s got aspects to his game that no one has seen. Over ten games I can’t think of a better NBA player this year. We need to maximize this thing now. That means veterans get minutes, prospects lose jobs, and threads move away from discussions of draft prospects.

    6. Ntilakilla

      1. I do believe Taytum will come back down to Earth. He’s shooting 50% from the field while also shooting 50% from downtown. I can’t imagine that is sustainable.

      2. Ben Simmons > Ayton.

      3. Luka Doncic > Ayton.

      4. KP isn’t having any surgery. He just overstated his elbow issue so he could get a day’s rest under the new league rules which disallow teams to rest their players for fatigue.

    7. Zanzibar

      The answer to the first question is that this would have cost us games that we won. We came back and just beat DEN and CHA. Would you trade those wins for a few minutes of player development?

      First of all, there’s no proof that it would have cost of us those games. Second, and more important, yes I would have preferred we had lost those games and had given the young guys more minutes. You commit to a philosophy for the year and follow it. Development of the young players should be the priority plus we also have to figure out if any of those young players are keepers. I’d note that the Clippers are playing Thornwell a lot and he was drafted after Dotson.

      Your second assumption, Hornacek, is playing Lee so he can trade him, is just not true.

      I wrote they “may” be doing that. They may also be willing to keep Lee for the duration of his contract. The gist was that 32yo Lee should not be playing 32mpg while Dotson gets zero minutes. Play Lee 22mph and give Dotson those 10 minutes. Lee is an average player, he’s not Kobe.

      As to Baker’s NTC and Wily’s golden boy status, they didn’t win jobs and have to wait.

      Jack is 34yo and terrible, look at his stats. Are you gonna argue that we couldn’t give some of his 20mpg to Baker? Frank (24) Baker (15) Jack (9) seems like a much better way to go. And you could sit KOQ or Kanter every third game and play Willy.

      coach wants playoffs, KP6 wants playoffs, ownership wants playoffs, NYC fans want playoffs,

      I’m sure coach wants playoffs but I don’t care about Hornacek resuscitating his image, I care about the team’s future. I think KP wants to stay healthy not to jeopardize his max extension. If you really want the playoffs, then I presume you’d want to play KP 38mpg and KP would be eager as well? And it’s not clear that playing Dotson, Baker, and Willy would even hurt our chances of making the playoffs.

    8. Zanzibar

      Correction: Jack is playing 25mpg (not 20mpg) and posting .035 WS/48 and MINUS 3.3 bpm. So he’s won the job over Baker? It shouldn’t take Baker much to better those stats. And Lee has played about as well as he’s able to play and has posted .054 WS/48 and .4bpm. I don’t think it would be that difficult for Dotson to approximate those stats. And it’s not clear that giving some of Kanter’s minutes to Willy would hurt that much since Enes is a difficult player to evaluate. So again playing the younger guys is the best strategy for the future but it may not even hurt us this season. In fact, it could help us.

    9. Bruno Almeida

      @4

      Yeah, I definitely slept on him. But to be fair, also getting drafted by the Celtics was the ideal situation. While Fox, Lonzo, etc are struggling trying to lead bad teams, Tatum is fine and dandy being just a role player on the Celtics. I’m not sure if his early success would be replicable in a much worse team.

    10. Ntilakilla

      Who says the young guys on our team automatically deserve more playing minutes? They have to earn them just like everyone else in practice and we’re not there at the practices, the coaches are. Also, Ron Baker has been sidelined the past 8 games due to an ankle issue.

    11. Ntilakilla

      And Lee has played about as well as he’s able to play and has posted .054 WS/48 and .4bpm. I don’t think it would be that difficult for Dotson to approximate those stats.

      Do you know how many rookie guards this season have a WS/48 that high? 0

      Only Jordan Bell, Kyle Kuzma, Anunoby, Jarrett Allen, John Collins, Bam Adebayo, and Jason Tatum have a higher WS/48 than Lee and most, with the exception of Tatum, are 4s and 5s.

    12. Zanzibar

      Dotson is 23yo 4-year college player, he’s not some 19yo. And yes I do expect he’ll struggle at first but I expect his improvement to be accelerated because of his age and skill set. He’s NBA ready just like 23yo Thornwell who’s getting minutes and has posted a similar WS/48 to Lee. Are you really gonna argue that 32yo .053 WS/48 Lee should be getting 32mpg and Dotson zero? Cut 8mpg off Lee and 2 off Timmy and give them to Dotson. There’s no substitute for game experience.

    13. bobneptune

      Dotson is 23yo 4-year college player, he’s not some 19yo. And yes I do expect he’ll struggle at first but I expect his improvement to be accelerated because of his age and skill set. He’s NBA ready just like 23yo Thornwell who’s getting minutes and has posted a similar WS/48 to Lee. Are you really gonna argue that 32yo .053 WS/48 Lee should be getting 32mpg and Dotson zero? Cut 8mpg off Lee and 2 off Timmy and give them to Dotson. There’s no substitute for game experience.

      If there is anything in business that I hate is a half assed strategy. The know KP is the franchise and they should have ran the 100% tank-a-thon strategy to him. Do you prefer to win 40 ish games max and not have a chance at a running partner for you or win 25 games and get a top 4 pick that can really help you have a chance moving forward.

      The notion of playing Lee big minutes is ludicrous. He has a body of work and it is below average for an NBA player and really below average for a starter. He should be playing minutes against reserves to make his stats look better and maybe be able to net a second rounder for him.

      He sucks at BB in any frame of reference other than the second guard off the bench.

      FFS, find a strategy and stick with it for more than 10 minutes.

    14. Ntilakilla

      Dotson is 23yo 4-year college player, he’s not some 19yo.

      So what you’re saying is that you expect Dotson to be the best rookie guard in this class because he’s older than the rest of his compeers who were more talented than he was coming out of the draft? That makes no sense to me. Just because you’re older it doesn’t mean you’re more likely to adopt to the NBA game, it actually could mean you’re less likely to do it since you are behind the field.

    15. DRed

      He’s NBA ready just like 23yo Thornwell who’s getting minutes and has posted a similar WS/48 to Lee. Are you really gonna argue that 32yo .053 WS/48 Lee should be getting 32mpg and Dotson zero

      Thornwell was one of the best players in college basketball last year, but if we took a few minutes away from Timmy, Lee and McBuckets we could give Dotson 6-8 minutes a night without a problem, even if he sucks.

    16. Zanzibar

      The issue here is Dotson’s minutes versus Lee’s. Dotson has shown a nice overall game in Summer League and pre-season. He shot 48% from 3 in Summer League and 50% in pre-season. He’s excellent in transition, he rebounds well, he’s a decent passer and defender. The one time he was given extended minutes in an NBA game he played well. Lee has posted below average WS/48’s the last 4 years and has a career -.2bpm and .087 WS/48.

      So I’ll pose the question again: given the current state of the Knicks, do you believe 23yo Dotson should be getting zero minutes and 32yo Lee 32mpg?

    17. danvt

      So again playing the younger guys is the best strategy for the future but it may not even hurt us this season.

      You could be right, Zanzibar. Maybe we don’t fall behind and don’t need fourth quarter heroics if Dotson gets more run earlier in the game. I wasn’t going after you so much as reading more of the same on this blog despite the most important statistic of them all, 6-2, with a quality win against CLE, wins against other teams that were supposed to be better than us, and one of the losses on a back to back without KP. I don’t think anyone in the organization professed anything except that we weren’t interested in trading for players over 25. So, the whole “Hornacek resuscitating his image” at the expense of player development thing just seems a bit off base. He’s making choices that are producing success. Should Lance Thomas not get minutes? His defense has been a huge factor.

      Ntilikilla said:

      They have to earn them just like everyone else in practice and we’re not there at the practices

      That’s where I’m at right now. Dotson is in the G-League and Lee is starting at the three for a team that’s favored to win tonight. This doesn’t read like Larry Brown calling Trevor Ariza delusional on the way to twenty wins. No, I won’t go as far as to hope KP plays 38 minutes. That’s a no brainer based on the short term future.

      The point is, and it’s not just you Zanzibar, this is the moment to play veterans, even if your secret hope is to trade them at some point. The kids will get their chance. It’s been 11 games. Meanwhile, the excitement around the team is palpable. Melo is gone. The guys we got for him are playing their asses off. We have a better record than OKC (Sorry ER, don’t mean to pile on there). We’re like the 2012 Nuggets. If your first thought after beating LBJ on the road is “how many minutes did our 2nd round picks get” then you’re burying lead story.

    18. DRed

      Tatum is shooting so much better in the NBA than he did in college that it seems unlikely he’ll keep it up. Still he looks like a very promising player.

    19. Ntilakilla

      So I’ll pose the question again: given the current state of the Knicks, do you believe 23yo Dotson should be getting zero minutes and 32yo Lee 32mpg?

      This wasn’t your point, which was actually arguing that Dotson could do Lee’s job fairly easily.

      And Lee has played about as well as he’s able to play and has posted .054 WS/48 and .4bpm. I don’t think it would be that difficult for Dotson to approximate those stats.

      The fact that you overlook that this means Dotson would be the best rookie guard in the NBA is problematic.

      But I will answer your question by stating that it is unclear if Dotson has earned a guarantee at steady NBA minutes yet. The season is still rather young, I haven’t seen the practices, and it’s unclear if Hornacek wants to slowly acclimate his younger players into his scheme or if the front office wants to play veterans like Lee to expose them for future trades down the road. All of these are factors which need to be fleshed out.

    20. d-mar

      Speaking of the Celtics, last night vs. the Hornets, Brown, Smart and Rozier were a combined 9-42, Irving left the game after 2 minutes and they still won the game!

      I guess Brad really is the boy genius.

    21. danvt

      If there is anything in business that I hate is a half assed strategy. The(y) know KP is the franchise and they should have ran the 100% tank-a-thon strategy to him. Do you prefer to win 40 ish games max and not have a chance at a running partner for you or win 25 games and get a top 4 pick that can really help you have a chance moving forward.

      So I’ll pose the question again: given the current state of the Knicks, do you believe 23yo Dotson should be getting zero minutes and 32yo Lee 32mpg?

      Wow. Just wow.

      Bob, If we’re a 25 win team, only drafting Tim Duncan, Shaq, Bird, Magic or MJ gives us twice those wins next year. Yes, based on the early success of the team, I’d like to win some games this year, make the playoffs and look to build through FA. Forty wins is only half assed strategy if it’s based on bringing in flawed guys like Derrick Rose who’s success is fools gold. Knicks don’t have that look this year. That’s not even the point though. No NBA team, including PHI, has a strategy of deliberately losing on purpose. PHI did it because Embid and Simmons got hurt and they made the decision not to throw good money after bad. Once it’s all turned to shit of course, but after game 11? But, you know, go ahead, root for them to gut the team and get crushed night after night…

      Zanzibar, Lee against ORL 3-7, 5-5 FT’s, 2asts. Lee against CHA, 9 asts, +1. IDK. I know we frown on traditional box scores around here but he seems to be doing his job. I say, yes, play him. If we get on a losing streak try something else. Right now he’s earning his minutes.

    22. Zanzibar

      or if the front office wants to play veterans like Lee to expose them for future trades down the road

      So the front office thinks that Lee playing 32mpg versus 24mpg will make a big difference in his trade value? That’s ludicrous.

      I haven’t seen the practices,

      Hornacek when interviewed a few days ago said Dotson needs to work on learning when to drive versus shoot. He didn’t say he needs to shoot better, or defend better, or pass better. What he mentioned was relatively mild when you’re talking about a rookie. And if you’ve watched Dotson play now in Summer League, pre-season and regular season you should realize he’s not your typical 2nd round pick.

      The fact that you overlook that this means Dotson would be the best rookie guard in the NBA is problematic.

      I said that Dotson could post something near Lee’s .054 WS/48 by the end of the season (actually I think it would be higher if given regular minutes but his bpm might be lower). I acknowledged that he could struggle for a month or two. I gave an example of Thornwell who’s the same age as Dotson and likely dropped in the draft for the same reasons Dotson did and he’s posted .049 WS/48 already. Heck Dotson was at .053 before the last game and he hadn’t even made a 3 yet. Obviously these #’s are volatile after only 39 total minutes but he’s got a 25% drb%, 10% dime%, 8% turnover, no steals or blocks. Those aren’t bad but he’s been terrible so far at shooting which is not expected to continue since he shot 44% from 3 in college, 48% in Summer League and 50% in preseason. If he just shoots an average 35% from 3 he’d probably be higher than Lee on WS/48.

    23. english_knick

      The thing for me here is that ‘developing the young players’ is not simply a case of ‘play the young players’. Its also about culture, playing under pressure etc. Guys need to learn that you earn your roster spot – anyone want to argue it would send the right message to reduce KOQs minutes right now? And they need to play meaningful games late in the season.

      Its a long season. I personally expect us to come back to earth a bit with our record relative to recent games, and once into the real slog part of the schedule away from home. If so, that’s when we can shift gear to allocating mins based on the future. We of course will need to understand to what extent Willy is a big part of the future before we get to Kanter and KOQs free agency, and ditto Dotson to make the right call on whether and when to trade Lee. But for now, the team is playing well and the dynamic is good and I don’t see why you disrupt that. Three of our starters are 25 or under. Frank is now getting as many mins as Jack, and McBuckets, also 25, is part of the rotation. So it’s not like we’re going all-in with the vets…

    24. Ntilakilla

      So the front office thinks that Lee playing 32mpg versus 24mpg will make a big difference in his trade value? That’s ludicrous.

      I don’t think NBA front offices approach minutes this way. They don’t go into a game saying they are going to give X player 32 vs. 24 minutes so that rookie Y gets his obligatory 10-8 minutes to play. I think Horny’s playing Lee because he feels the guy is one of his best, most reliable backcourt players and the front office signs off on it because it showcases what he can do for a potential trade. Sometimes he keeps Lee in the game when the matchup is right and other times he substitutes him like he did in the games where Thomas closed things out. If that means he gets 8 minutes than you would like, so be it, this isn’t an exact science.

      Hornacek when interviewed a few days ago said Dotson needs to work on learning when to drive versus shoot.

      That means Daymean hasn’t learned how to play in the offsensive system yet. You know, the same way Derrick Rose didn’t know when to pass, drive or shoot in the floor of our offense last season.

      I gave an example of Thornwell who’s the same age as Dotson and likely dropped in the draft for the same reasons Dotson did and he’s posted .049 WS/48 already.

      Thornwell, averaging 12 minutes a game, with a .49 WS/48 at -1.9 BMP is your example for how Dotson can approximate Lee’s 31 minutes per game of 0.54 WS/48? Thornwell was SEC player of the year and far more talented player coming out college.

      If he just shoots an average 35% from 3 he’d probably be higher than Lee on WS/48.

      So if everything goes right he’ll be better than Lee. I see.

    25. Bruno Almeida

      Hornacek is the coach, and as such his job is to manage this team and train them to win games. If he thinks a player plays better than another one he’ll do it, just like he goes with KOQ instead of Willy or Ntilikina and Lance in the 4th quarter of the Pacers game. I don’t think it’s entirely his responsibility to care about minutes for a guy like Dotson for example. If he feels playing Lee more minutes is bringing the team closer to wins, that’s what he’s going to do.

      If the front office feels Dotson has a chance to be very good one day, it’s on them to adjust the roster, trade Lee for example or someone else.

      I’m fine with Dotson not getting immediate minutes because the team is overperforming expectations and doing well without him. I’ve always been on board with play the young talent no matter what, but I can’t expect Hornacek, who obviously entered the season on the hot seat already, to do so if it can lead to more losses.

    26. Zanzibar

      So if everything goes right he’ll be better than Lee.

      So projecting 35% from 3 for a guy who shot 44% in college from 3, 48% in Summer League and 50% in pre-season is a stretch. If anything that is a conservative estimate.

      That means Daymean hasn’t learned how to play in the offsensive system yet. You know, the same way Derrick Rose didn’t know when to pass, drive or shoot in the floor of our offense last season.

      You’re comparing a rookie to Rose. Serious? Rose didn’t pass or defend because that’s the guy’s game. He’s been that way his whole career. Dotson’s issue has nothing to do with learning the offense. It’s similar to Frank in this regard. He just needs to develop judgment as to when to drive versus when to shoot. In particular, what I think Hornacek was talking about is sometimes he’ll have an opening to the basket but not take it. I noticed that a couple of times. You play him, you show him the tape of when he should have drove, and then you hope he improves based on game experience and feedback.

      Thornwell was SEC player of the year and far more talented player coming out college.

      And yet Thornwell was drafted AFTER Dotson. Our scouting department has done a nice job so far but you’re saying they have made a mistake here? And had Knicks drafted Thornwell you would be arguing that he should be getting minutes similar what the Clippers are giving him?

      I don’t think NBA front offices approach minutes this way. They don’t go into a game saying they are going to give X player 32 vs. 24 minutes so that rookie Y gets his obligatory 10-8 minutes to play.

      It doesn’t have to be an exact # every game but it should work out on average to that. You could sit Lee every 4th game and give his minutes to Dotson. The gist is that Dotson should be getting some of Lee’s minutes as well those of others given the state of the team.

    27. ClashFan

      I’ll weigh in. I generally agree with Zanzibar that the Knicks should be playing young guys more, but as I’ve also said, this will be more of a concern come January than now. So, there’s no rush in jumping Dotson into games right away.

      Ron hurt his ankle, so that appears to have set him back. Thus Jack got a chance and has helped the team work into H’s offense. Yeah, at some point they will need to probably start Frank and give Ron Jack’s minutes (20?). Perhaps sooner than later; I would think that Ron can give the Knicks at least what Jack gives.

      It is totally understandable that Hornacek wants to win some games. We all want the team to play hard, and if they do and wins result, then so be it. I’m a bit frustrated that Willy is mostly sitting, but Kanter (warts and all) and OQ have played pretty well, so it’s not like H is playing a crappy C ahead of Willy.

      The fear is some early wins creates a false sense that the team is ready to contend and then Mills makes a bad trade. Or, that the Knicks end up winning 35-40 games and missing out on some of the top guys.

      The season is still very young.

    28. danvt

      I just don’t get how anyone can watch the DEN, for example, game and their big takeaway is about something other than a huge W and a 3-3 record. Actually, Dotson got six minutes in that game and was plus 5 with 5 rebounds and 2 assists! So Hornacek, has found minutes for him through this beginning stretch.

      Plus, it was Ntilikina making two huge three’s in the 4th quarter of that game. He’s a neophyte. He’s been getting consistent minutes, developing, and the team’s been winning. I wasn’t happy with Hornacek calling KP names, etc coming into the season but I don’t see the nit picking of his rotations right now.

      What I really don’t get is someone watching Frank nail a three to put us up 102-99 and thinking, “Shit this is gonna cost us ping pong balls”. You gotta adjust your lens based on what actually happens on the court.

    29. 2FOR18, understands math

      “You could sit Lee every 4th game and give his minutes to Dotson”

      That’s an interesting idea. They do it in baseball, why not basketball?

    30. Bruno Almeida

      Dotson did play 37 minutes in yesterday’s Westchester game and kinda sucked shooting the ball. He went 3/11 (1/2 from three) but he got 12 rebounds. Trey Burke sucked too going 3 for 12 but got 11 assists. Ron was Ron, I’d say. This Isiah Hicks kid score 35 and almost lead them to a win.

    31. Ben R

      Dotson was a 2nd rounder and old for a rookie and still has holes in his game. Do I think he has potential as a 3 and d guy, sure, but there’s no hurry. It’s not like he was a lottery pick or projected to be a star. If we’re lucky he turns into Will Barton. That’s the kind of ceiling he has.

      We are implementing a new system with a bunch of young players and no real PG besides two washed up journeyman vets and the 2nd youngest player in the NBA. I have no problem if Hornacek wants to lean on Lee, one of the few veteran NBA starters on this team, to get things rolling. Get Dotson 5-10 games in D-league at 30+ minutes a game. If he plays well bring him back and give him a bigger more consistent role on this team.

      As for Baker I think it’s just tune up time in the d-league and he will be back with the team soon.

    32. Bruno Almeida

      @33

      I get why people think he’s an intriguing prospect, with the good shooting percentages and rebounding numbers, but I really don’t get this narrative that he is 100% NBA ready.

      Keep giving him G-League minutes and keep him on the active roster, he’ll have his chances. The Knicks liked him enough to give him a 3 year deal, he will be in the mix eventually.

    33. Zanzibar

      Dotson has the potential to be elite from 3 which happens to be quite important in today’s NBA. (Barton BTW is a career 32.8% from 3 so I don’t get him being Dotson’s ceiling.) But we know from Novak and Lee, that’s not enough. You have to be able to get your shot off and it looks like he checks that box. You have to be able to shoot using off-ball screens and we saw him do that in Summer League. His draft reports mentioned his ability to shoot in traffic and off screens. He’s probably an elite rebounder. He’s looked good in transition. He seems to be a capable defender. His dimes/100 possessions so far is 3.8 versus Lee’s career 3.1. His college FT% the last two years was 83%. His main area for improvement appears to be driving and improving his FTr.

      I’m not claiming he’s gonna be a star (he doesn’t create off the dribble) but that profile suggests he could be an above average starter which is more than we have at the moment. 2nd round picks do break through from time to time but you’ve got to play them if you’re a rebuilding team to find out if you believe they have some promise. I find it very strange that people have such a difficult time taking 8 minutes from the 32mpg of the incredible Courtney Lee and 2 minutes from Terrific Timmy and 3 minutes from Legendary Lance. The Clippers don’t seem to have a problem giving Thornwell that kind of burn.

    34. The Infamous Cdiggy

      I think we also have to keep in mind that while we were expecting/hoping KP to make the jump in this, his 3rd year, no one foresaw MVP-level production coming out the gate. We’re 6-5 in large part bc our Unicorn is hitting 30 a game on a TS of .607 and an increased block rate (6.6, with Rudy Gobert the league leader at 6.7).

      I’d love to add another top flight rookie at next summer’s Draft, but I believe the board was in unison in the belief that KP’s development was this season’s #1 priority. Well folks, what if (it’s a long season still so this is a pretty big IF) he keeps this up?

    35. ClashFan

      @36
      That would be a question to ponder come January. He’s taken a huge step, but can he keep it up and will the league adjust to him in some way? The next question would then be who on the current roster are also building blocks going forward? Frank? Kanter? McD? Willy? Dotson? Ron?

      I think it’ll also be interesting to watch Philly and Minny this year. After lots of rebuilding, they’ve gone for it this year. Did each have enough of a young core in place to make the move, or did either or both jump the gun?

    36. danvt

      I find it very strange that people have such a difficult time taking 8 minutes from the 32mpg of the incredible Courtney Lee and 2 minutes from Terrific Timmy and 3 minutes from Legendary Lance.

      No one has a difficult time with that. We’re wondering it’s such a priority considering the improved play of the team. We’re wondering why you’re questioning the coach considering we’re 6-2 in our last 8 games.

    37. Bruno Almeida

      Yeah, there’s plenty of space to find minutes for Dotson, but if Hornacek thinks he’s not worthy of those minutes he must be seeing something in practice for example. He has had no issues playing Ntilikina even in pressure situations, so its not like he hates rookies or anything. All people are suggesting is that maybe he’s not this sure fire player or maybe he hasn’t shown enough to the coaching staff.

      Thornwell was barely playing when the Clippers were at full health, only garbage time pretty much, he’s been in the rotation since Teodosic went down with an injury, and now Gallinari and Beverley are injured too. The only guards they have are Rivers, Beverley, Teodosic, Williams and Jawun Evans who started seeing some minutes because of injuries too.

    38. Zanzibar

      We’re wondering why you’re questioning the coach considering we’re 6-2 in our last 8 games.

      A few weeks ago almost everybody (not me) were done with Hornacek. Now some people have lurched to other extreme where he’s a genius whose decisions shouldn’t be questioned. I’d like the team to adhere to Mills stated philosophy after those 3 initial losses which was to focus on the development of the younger players, implement an offense featuring ball and player movement, and implement an active team defense. He said Hornacek would not be judged on wins but how the team is doing on that stuff. Regarding youth, I’d rather Baker and Burke take a lot of Jack’s minutes because Jack stinks. I’d like Dotson to get 10-15 mpg and I’d like Willy and Kanter to rotate games where maybe something like Enes plays 2 games, Willy plays a game. You could also give KOQ a day off here and there and play Willy.

      Thornwell was barely playing

      Thornwell – no DNPs (6mpg first 5) versus Dotson 5 DNPs.

      He has had no issues playing Ntilikina even in pressure situations, so its not like he hates rookies or anything.

      Frank was drafted #8, makes 3m+, and the alternatives stink. Still Lonzo, Fox, DSJ are all playing more minutes than Ntilikina.

      but if Hornacek thinks he’s not worthy of those minutes he must be seeing something in practice for example.

      Well he had no trouble calling Willy out on his defense. The only thing he mentioned about Dotson was pretty mild and he said if does that he should be a good player. And the one game where Dotson was given extended burn he played really well. I think more likely is that he expects Dotson to struggle for a while and he’s coaching for his reputation and job and therefore doesn’t want to play him. Or he thinks Dotson could be better than Timmy and Lee which would create a major headache given what we’re paying them.

    39. Ben R

      I think once Baker is healthy and in shape he will start to steal minutes from Jack. As for Willy he is playing worse than both Enes and O’Quinn. Enes and O’Quinn are both young enough that they could stick around for 5+ more years if that’s what’s best for the team. Willy will get his chance and until he earns it I have no problem with him sitting. As for the rotating games thing, that would be pretty unprecedented and probably set a bad tone. We are a team trying to capitalize on KP’s growth, let’s keep trying to win until we regress.

      Also I think you really need to slow down with your expectations of Dotson. He was a good shooter as a senior in college but only had one year shooting over 37% from 3, he barely scored over 20 points per 40 despite being a 5th year senior on a mediocre team, had underwhelming passing and steal/block numbers and didn’t start rebounding well till his junior year. He is far from an elite 3 pt shooting prospect.

      I’m still hopeful he turns into a nice 3 and d player but to act like he’s anywhere near a sure thing is premature. Let him do something first. If he starts dominating d-league then get upset if he can’t crack our rotation.

    40. Ntilakilla

      His dimes/100 possessions so far is 3.8 versus Lee’s career 3.1.

      Are you really using a 36-minute sample size as a point of comparison to Lee’s career?

    41. Ntilakilla

      Frank was drafted #8, makes 3m+, and the alternatives stink. Still Lonzo, Fox, DSJ are all playing more minutes than Ntilikina.

      Each of these players also didn’t miss all of the Summer League, most of the training camp practice, the preseason, and the 2 of the 3 first games due to injury like Ntilikina. But, by all means, don’t let the facts get in the way of a good narrative.

    42. Bruno Almeida

      No one ever called Hornacek a genius, just that you’re massively overreacting about the playing time of a 2nd rounder in a team that’s 6-5.

      I too would like to see all the youngsters playing a lot, but it’s been 11 games. If Ntilikina was not playing because Jack and Sessions were, I’d be pissed. Not so much about Dotson, since Lee and McDermott have played decently well and THJ is going to play regardless.

    43. Zanzibar

      Also I think you really need to slow down with your expectations of Dotson. He was a good shooter as a senior in college but only had one year shooting over 37% from 3, he barely scored over 20 points per 40 despite being a 5th year senior on a mediocre team, had underwhelming passing and steal/block numbers and didn’t start rebounding well till his junior year. He is far from an elite 3 pt shooting prospect.

      The trend is what ‘s important and his most recent performance.
      – His FT% has gone from 72% to 83%
      – Turnovers went from 50 to 33 in same minutes (8% TOV% so far in NBA)
      – Defensive rebounds doubled to where he’s looking elite in this category
      – His steals/blocks, however, did remain constant
      – 3FG% went from low 30’s to 44% and he shot lights out in Summer League and pre-season. Observe his form and how the ball goes through the hoop – he looks like a shooter to me. And he appears to be a much more versatile shooter than your average NBA 3&D player for reasons I’ve explained ad nauseum. Give him enough minutes to be in the flow of an offense and we’ll find out if it’s real. playing a shooter 2 minutes here and 3 minutes there often doesn’t work.

      but to act like he’s anywhere near a sure thing is premature

      Never claimed he’s a sure thing only that he’s demonstrated enough to merit minutes especially when one of the guys who’s getting 32mpg is 32yo and both Timmy and Lee are average.

    44. bobneptune

      Not so much about Dotson, since Lee and McDermott have played decently well and THJ is going to play regardless.

      Saying Lee has played decently well (ws/48 = .054) is a pretty loose definition of “playing well” And this isn’t in a vacuum. He booked 2500 minutes significantly below league average, let alone league average for a starter. He is completely overrated because he is a nice guy with a pretty 3 ball which he is reluctant to release.

      Winning a single game because of his play if it blocks potential development of anyone is a crime against humanity. He isn’t going to be around when the Knicks ever get good and him playing starters minutes is idiotic. He is a back up 2 guard, period.

    45. nicos

      I’m not super worried about no Dotson yet though I would like to see him getting 8-10 a night at the 2 or the 3. I’d agree with Bobneptune that Lee simply isn’t good enough to be keeping the Knicks from finding out what they have in Dotson. That said, he’ll get plenty of time in the d-league and if he gets his shot together there then they’ll really have no excuse for not finding him some minutes. Also- Isaiah Hicks is playing pretty well down there (18.5 and 10 in 32 mpg 62%TS) though there’s such a logjam up front I can’t see him getting any minutes. He’s probably a worse version of Willy but I wouldn’t mind finding out for sure one way or the other.

    46. Knick fan not in NJ at this time

      So it can’t be that Dotson is improving because he’s not getting minutes and wants them? The desire for meaningful playing time is one of the biggest motivators for improvement in sports. I agree Dotson has promise, But I don’t agree that it’s a big mistake that he isn’t getting more playing time.

    47. Zanzibar

      Are you really using a 36-minute sample size as a point of comparison to Lee’s career?

      No, I’m using per 100 possession stat to adjust for pace since Lee played on many different teams. And the gist is that Dotson may not be so bad a passer as everyone including myself figured he might be. To my eye test, he’s thrown some nice passes and he keeps the ball moving which is what Hornacek wants. We saw some signs in Summer League and pre-season that he might be a decent passer and so far that appears to be the case in regular season. BTW Timmy’s career average dimes/100 poss = 3.3.

      Each of these players also didn’t miss all of the Summer League, most of the training camp practice, the preseason, and the 2 of the 3 first games due to injury like Ntilikina. But, by all means, don’t let the facts get in the way of a good narrative.

      Has Frank started a game yet even though Jack and Sessions are terrible? And though his minutes have risen the last 3 games, they’re still below the other guards who are really no better or worse than him at this stage. I’m ok so far but very soon Frank should be starting and playing comparable minutes to those other guards and Baker/Burke should be getting a lot of Jack’s minutes.

      if he gets his shot together there then they’ll really have no excuse for not finding him some minutes.

      I mean his 2P% is 57% and he’s gone 0-4 from 3. It’s not like he’s shooting 10 of 40 from 3 or something like that. He’s only taken 4 shots from the arc. I would say he needs to get more regular minutes where he’s shooting in the flow of an offense.

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