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Wednesday, October 18, 2017

Knicks Morning News (2017.09.24)

  • [SNY Knicks] How Enes Kanter and Doug McDermott will fit in with Knicks
    (Saturday, September 23, 2017 7:02:45 PM)

    The Knicks have moved on from the Carmelo Anthony era and all the drama is done with. They brought Enes Kanter and Doug McDermott back to New York.

  • [SNY Knicks] Jim Boeheim says Phil Jackson ‘chased’ Melo out of New York
    (Saturday, September 23, 2017 3:39:03 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony’s addition automatically makes the Oklahoma City Thunder a threat to the Golden State Warriors.

  • [SNY Knicks] Report: Knicks trade Carmelo Anthony to Oklahoma City Thunder
    (Saturday, September 23, 2017 1:33:08 PM)

    Knicks F Carmelo Anthony had expanded his desired teams list to include the Thunder and Cavaliers on Friday.

  • [SNY Knicks] What should be expected of rookie Frank Ntilikina?
    (Saturday, September 23, 2017 12:45:24 PM)

    Ntilikina’s impact early on will be seen on the defensive side of the floor, where he will be able to be a three-position defender.

  • [NYTimes] Stephen Curry, on a ‘Surreal’ Day, Confronts a Presidential Snub
    (Sunday, September 24, 2017 3:06:17 AM)

    The Warriors star woke up on Saturday to learn that he was no longer welcome at the White House, after he had already said he didn’t want to go.

  • [NYTimes] Sports of The Times: As Trump Takes On Athletes, Watch Them Rise
    (Saturday, September 23, 2017 10:23:12 PM)

    The president’s inflammatory comments might not be as significant as the players’ responses.

  • [NYTimes] Carmelo Anthony Traded to Thunder, Ending Turbulent Era With Knicks
    (Saturday, September 23, 2017 8:39:45 PM)

    Anthony is leaving New York in exchange for Enes Kanter, Doug McDermott and a second-round draft pick, according to an N.B.A. official briefed on the negotiations.

  • [ESPN] Vote: Who got the better end of Carmelo Anthony trade?
    (Saturday, September 23, 2017 5:31:58 PM)

    Vote: Who got the better end of Carmelo Anthony trade?

  • [ESPN] Where do Knicks go from here? A post-Melo landscape
    (Saturday, September 23, 2017 2:42:37 PM)

    Where do Knicks go from here? A post-Melo landscape

  • [ESPN] NBA players, others applaud Thunder for reported Carmelo Anthony trade
    (Saturday, September 23, 2017 2:59:44 PM)

    NBA players, others applaud Thunder for reported Carmelo Anthony trade

  • [ESPN] Melo to Thunder trade: Fantasy fallout
    (Saturday, September 23, 2017 2:26:03 PM)

    Melo to Thunder trade: Fantasy fallout

  • [ESPN] Melo escapes New York, leaving behind a complicated legacy
    (Saturday, September 23, 2017 2:01:47 PM)

    Melo escapes New York, leaving behind a complicated legacy

  • [ESPN] Trade grades: Did Knicks or Thunder win Melo deal?
    (Saturday, September 23, 2017 1:17:30 PM)

    Trade grades: Did Knicks or Thunder win Melo deal?

  • [ESPN] Sources: Knicks agree to trade Melo to OKC
    (Saturday, September 23, 2017 1:05:32 PM)

    Sources: Knicks agree to trade Melo to OKC

  • [NY Newsday] Carmelo Anthony dealt to Oklahoma City, sources say
    (Saturday, September 23, 2017 9:04:14 PM)

    The Knicks are sending Carmelo Anthony to Oklahoma City for center Enes Kanter, shooting guard Doug McDermott and the 2018 second-round pick that the Thunder acquired from Chicago, league sources confirmed.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks start training camp fresh without Carmelo Anthony
    (Saturday, September 23, 2017 6:20:00 PM)

    Phil Jackson and the triangle offense are gone, and Carmelo Anthony is leaving too. The Knicks will become Kristaps Porzingis’ team on Monday when the Anthony trade is official.

  • [NY Newsday] Carmelo Anthony never lived up to the hype in New York
    (Saturday, September 23, 2017 4:36:19 PM)

    The whole thing was off-key from the beginning, when that catchy, much-played song “Coming Home” became the promotional soundtrack of Carmelo Anthony’s arrival with the Knicks in February of 2011.

  • [NYPost] Knicks training camp kicks off new era in more ways than one
    (Saturday, September 23, 2017 10:18:14 PM)

    Now the Knicks really can launch their youth movement as training camp opens Monday. New team president Steve Mills and his right-hand man, general manager Scott Perry, can author future blog posts about the Knicks’ young core, and when they don’t mention Carmelo Anthony in their future essays, they won’t be accused of a crime…

  • [NYPost] Get to know every player Knicks will have at training camp
    (Saturday, September 23, 2017 10:07:34 PM)

    Here’s a closer look at the players on the Knicks’ training camp roster (listed alphabetically): Jamel Artis, SF Of summer-league guys, Pittsburgh sharpshooter has best chance of either cracking 15-man roster or signing second two-way contract that allows him to rotate from G-League to big club. Ron Baker, PG Combo guard got ridiculous new contract,…

  • [NYPost] Boeheim: Free of triangle, Carmelo will thrive with Thunder
    (Saturday, September 23, 2017 9:33:18 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony may not have an NBA title, but he does have an NCAA championship — and his former college coach said the star forward couldn’t be happier going to a team that has a shot at a ring. Anthony was miscast in Phil Jackson’s triangle offense, according to Syracuse coach Jim Boeheim, and will…

  • [NYPost] The Knicks belong to Kristaps Porzingis: Now what?
    (Saturday, September 23, 2017 6:41:34 PM)

    Here’s a look at the top five storylines facing the Knicks as they head into training camp: 1. How will the post-Carmelo Anthony Knicks respond and who will be the starting small forward? The soap opera came to a conclusion Saturday, when Anthony decided to open up his trade wish list to more playoff-contending teams…

  • [NYPost] Hornacek on Porzingis, inner peace and resurrecting Knicks
    (Saturday, September 23, 2017 3:29:36 PM)

    Before training camp tips off, Knicks coach Jeff Hornacek took a timeout for some Q&A with Post columnist Steve Serby. Q: Is Kristaps Porzingis ready to be “The Man”? A: I think back at Kobe Bryant, and we played them in the playoffs, and big part of the game, and he must have been a…

  • [NYPost] Why Carmelo’s move to Thunder changes nothing out West
    (Saturday, September 23, 2017 2:48:59 PM)

    So the Knicks gave away Carmelo Anthony to the Thunder, who now have their own Big 3 as he joins MVP and triple-double machine Russell Westbrook and another highway robbery acquisition, Paul George. And what does it mean out West in the NBA? Not much. “Golden State is still the class of the West by…

  • [NYPost] Ranking Carmelo’s 10 best (and worst) Knicks moments
    (Saturday, September 23, 2017 1:32:20 PM)

    Here are the top 10 best (and worst) moments of Carmelo Anthony’s tenure with the Knicks: 10 Best Moments 1. 62-point game On Jan. 24, 2014 against the Bobcats, Melo broke Bernard King’s franchise record and the Garden record for points in a game, going 23-for-35 from the field. 2. 20,000 career points On Nov….

  • [NYPost] Melo’s path out of New York is a boulevard of broken dreams
    (Saturday, September 23, 2017 12:53:12 PM)

    This wasn’t the way any of this was supposed to go, of course. Carmelo Anthony was one of the handful of modern athletic icons who sought New York City, who craved the lights and the attention, the noise and the lights and the buzz. He wanted to make this work in New York every bit…

  • [NYPost] The Knicks have finally traded Carmelo Anthony
    (Saturday, September 23, 2017 9:11:13 AM)

    At the speed of thunder and lightning, Carmelo Anthony has finally been zapped from New York. One day after Anthony finally opened up his wish list to include the Thunder and the Cavaliers, the Knicks sent their 33-year-old declining star off to Oklahoma City, agreeing on a framework of a deal centered around center Enes…

  • [NYDN] As Carmelo joins a winner, Knicks get to build around Porzingis
    (Saturday, September 23, 2017 10:08:40 PM)

    The idea that the Knicks would turn Carmelo Anthony into Blake Griffin or perhaps Kyrie Irving this summer was never more than crazy dream.

  • [NYDN] 8 defining moments of Carmelo Anthony’s career with the Knicks
    (Saturday, September 23, 2017 10:07:55 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony was a Knick for 6 1/2 rollercoaster seasons.

  • [NYDN] Knicks sending Carmelo Anthony to OKC Thunder for 2 players, pick
    (Saturday, September 23, 2017 10:05:14 PM)

    The Carmelo Anthony era of Knicks basketball appears to be over.

  • [NYDN] Boeheim on Carmelo Anthony trade: ‘He deserves a chance to win’
    (Saturday, September 23, 2017 10:13:47 AM)

    Syracuse head coach Jim Boeheim called the Carmelo Anthony trade “huge” for his former player.

  • 118 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.09.24)

    1. Z-man

      As happy about the trade as I am (not ecstatic, but happy) I think people here are underestimating Melo’s abilities. He’s not as much in decline, or as bad of a defender, as people here make him out to be. Like Kp and everyone else, he played for a team in advanced stages of dysfunction under the dark cloud that was Phil Jackson’s intrusive and inept influence. He will feel liberated and rejuvenated in OKC and Russ will be running the show.

      Melo is gonna have a great year…efficient, prolific, clutch on O, adequate on D, and an upbeat team player. OKC is gonn win close to 60 games and he’s gonna be a huge part of the reason why. And I won’t miss him one iota.

    2. danvt

      OK. Day 1 Life without Melo…

      First, let me say, that it’s amazing that this is the second line NBA story circulating with the idiot in the White House taking shots at Steph, peaceful protesters, and those who guard against concussions. Wow, could he be any stupider? Or any more offensive? I have to say that Lebron scored major points with me for defending Curry. When does that happen? I’m going to root for him now. (Not against NYK or GSW but, you know…)

      As to Melo in OKC, I think he’s gonna be great there. It’ll be like Zach in Memphis. He’ll improve his defensive effort. He’ll have plenty of rest if he needs it. He won’t slow the team down because his usage will go down. When they need a bucket he’ll get it. He’ll draw double teams and kick. He’ll kill with the open threes Russ will get him. It’s a perfect situation for him. Godspeed.

      In NY he fucked up the roster coming here but ultimately that’s not on him. They had many chances to recover but got Bargnani. Now we have Perry, we’re out from under the NTC, we have some decent talent and some players with potential to be transcendent. If Frank surprises and KP and Wily jump up another level, maybe we’re already all the way back. If not, at least we haven’t traded two years of first rounders for someone like Eddy Curry. Or given a max to a post knee surgery STAT. We’re looking at a prospect laden, healthy organization that can create a winning culture and POSSIBLY make some good decisions going forward.

      Good morning everyone. Yup, he’s gone. It wasn’t a dream.

    3. danvt

      AW Z-Man, you beat me to first post. I think we were thinking along similar lines.

      Since you’re up early I got questions. Who starts at PG? Does Jack have anything left? I know you’re not high on Frank. Ditto the 3 position. Beasley seems like Melo lite. Kind of Ironic to go to him as a starter. Though of course you can pull him without getting Steven A Smith’s panties in a bunch.

      Where the hell is this roster going now? Most important… CAN KP LEAD THIS TEAM?

    4. chrisconley

      Happy with the trade. I agree with Z-man’s post. He’ll prob be much better than last year in OKC (per minute) but I don’t care. What folks calling it a bad trade for NYK are glossing over is that the Knicks had no leverage. Phil fucked us. NTC plus pushing Melo to publicly demand trade to one team (HOU) was a worst case scenario. And those thinking his expansion to allow OKC and Cavs would lead to an awesome bidding war are delusional. Zero percent chance we could have gotten Love. So what was the better trade we missed out on?

      Looking forward, biggest need is a defensive coach? Is Rambis still employed? If so, how is that even possible? That was one of the reasons I cheered the Phil firing bc that should have been automatic.

    5. danvt

      @4 good post. It says on the website that Rambis is associate head coach. OY. I agree with the idea that we need to get our house in order and that probably comes from the top. (Of course, Dolan’s there which really inspires fear.) Hornacek already has some red flags as far as I’m concerned with his calling KP the P word.

      I’m liking what I’m seeing from Perry. I did not see any way Melo wasn’t going to be here. So the fact that we avoided a buy out, got trade-able players and kept our flexibility seems like a good deal. He’s not responsible for the TH2 overpay, either.

      Back to your point. BOS got better with Stevens and Ainge making a good plan on and off the court, sticking too it and having some reasonable moves (IT, Crowder) turn out way better than expected. I’d love to see that happen in NYK but we may be in for more suffering until Perry gets his head coach.

    6. bockadoo

      Anyone listen to the NBA XM Sirius NBA station? In the afternoon it was some annoying guy named Noah and Mitch Lawrence. They just roasted us on the trade. It’s amazing how little they seem to understand. Just brutal. Lawrence could be the worst second banana ever. He agrees with everything Isola or whoever else is hosting says. Hard to listen to. Reminds me of the tough guy in Trading Places who just said “yeah” after his birthday dry said something to Eddie Murphy.

    7. ess-dog

      Felt great waking up today to a bunch on non-branded players, ready to play their best drama-free ball.

      I keep forgetting about Baker’s ridiculous contract. They are betting big on him, at the very least as the first guard off the bench, maybe even as a starter.

      I hate the Beasley pick up and hope they’re planning to use him as a 6th man, but there aren’t many other alternatives at starter. Kuz? McD?

      It should be an interesting training camp, at the very least.

    8. Z-man

      When it comes down to it, I think Baker is going to be given every chance to win the starting PG job. For one thing, he is making double the money of either Sessons or Jack. For another, if they are committed to youth, he’s young.

      If he falters in preseason, then Sessions probably gets the nod. JAck seems more like a half court player than uptempo, so I see him either not making the roster or playing off the bench to start the season.

      I doubt that Frank plays much at first. He’s too young and too raw. They’ll try to work him in as the season goes on but he’ll be up and down from the G-league. he needs major minutes (30+ per game) of competitive basketball, which he didn’t get in Strasbourg. Plus they play like 2 games a week in Europe. MAybe by January he’ll be ready to contribute but I doubt it. 19 year olds just aren’t NBA ready. IF he puts up a positive WS48 for the year, he’s ahead of the curve.

      BTW I think Fox, Fultz and Smith will all struggle as well. Maybe Ball too, although he might be the exception. TAtum and Mitchell are my early bets for ROY and Bam might also put up great numbers.

    9. Totes McGoats Makes 18mil For 14ppg

      I like the trade for all parties involved. Melo fits there nicely and we shouldn’t be surprised if he’s option 2 over George. I still think Houston was a better fit because of thw combo forwards and Chris Paul, but OKC is not far off. Bringing in Melo without losing a core player probably does make them a 2 seed over Houston and San Antonio. The great thing about is, George had to learn how to aggressively get his shots as the featured player in Indy. I don’t think he’ll have an issue being the 3rd option there. He has the right mentality and is enough of a playmaker and defender to have his usage drop. I think he’ll get plenty of touches regardless, but his efficiency should go way up now. Melo will be more efficient too, but his efficiency won’t take a significant leap. His shooting percentages will go up because he will get better shots. But I still expect him to be the late clock, end of game bucket guy. The tiebreaker with him and Westbrook in that role ends in shot making because Melo is the best pure shot maker on that team. Only now he shouldn’t be so tired in those situations. Melo’s struggles trying to carry a team bereft of overall talent has kinda made people forget how flat out deadly he is on offense. We shouldn’t expect him to go Durant-With-The-Warriors on the league, but we should expect him to remind the world just how good he is.

      As far as our Knicks go, I’m a little worried about the big man glut. I have high hopes for McBuckets. There’s gotta be a trade somewhere for Lee & KOQ. We don’t even have to demand a player back in return. MKG would be optimal, but I’d also love Manimal. For those 2 guys, I’d throw Kuz in as a sweetener to get another late 1st or early 2nd back in 2018.

    10. TheOakmanCometh

      My friends all think this was a bad trade but I agree with most of the posters here that it’s totally acceptable, given the circumstances.

      We had very very little leverage because:
      -Melo had a NTC
      -Melo is a ball-dominant player who’s hard to fit into many offenses
      -Melo has a lot of weaknesses
      -Melo is paid like one of the best players in the league

      It had become clear months ago that we weren’t going to get positive assets for him. This package from OKC is basically value-neutral. Kanter is a negative (but not that negative for us considering our place on the win curve), McBuckets is neutral, and the pick is a small positive. Overall, basically a wash.

    11. TheOakmanCometh

      @12

      Agreed. It’s a strong move for OKC. Melo may not mesh with Russ, but it’s a chance they had to take. They gave up very little to take a swing for the fences.

      Presti has done a fantastic job turning this team into a conference finals contender with few assets at his disposal.

    12. ptmilo

      If you’re KOQ’s agent right now you should be demanding a trade. Contract year with a coach who only played him 15 mpg in a season when Noah missed half the season, Willy was a rookie and Kanter was in OKC.

    13. Zanzibar

      McBuckets, Kanter, and Timmy are all exposed in the playoffs. None of these guys should be on our team taking minutes away from Willy, Frank, Dotson, and Baker.

      We lost the trade because we had leverage in any OKC deal. Presti went deep into the luxury tax on this deal. He’s in “win now” mode hoping to re-sign Westbrook and George. There’s no way players like Ferguson and Huestis and that Chicago pick would have held up any deal. Our front office panicked and Presti took the rook and moron Mills to the cleaners. KOQ would have been perfect for that team in this situation; we could have even included Kuz for McD if Presti wanted. But we gotta net a couple more young players on favorable contracts out of that deal.

      If you’re Presti and were willing to do the deal we took, then he’d have been more than happy to have had this roster:
      Starters: Westbrook/Roberson/George/Melo/Adams
      Bench: Patterson, Abrines, KOQ, McDermott or Kuz, Felton

    14. Totes McGoats Makes 18mil For 14ppg

      If Kanter stays (which I’m not opposed to) and starts, Lance or McBuckets HAS to start at the 3. Both of those guys are better at defending SF’s than Beasley and TH2. Lee is too small to check 3’s full time also. For now, I’m just rooting for another solid trade involving KOQ & Lee.

    15. d-mar

      Melo elevating his game in OKC (as in not forcing up bad shots and actually giving a shit on D) would remind me a lot of when a sulking Vince Carter forced his way out of Toronto and suddenly became a dynamic player again with the Nets.

      Would actually be kind of nauseating to watch, frankly.

    16. bobneptune

      I don’t get all the gnashing of teeth that there had to be a better deal out there. Practically speaking, there had to be a deal done by Monday. With KP being such a wuss that he needs a safe space if the coach calls him a pussy justifiably for playing like a pussy, he might have gone into convulsions had Melo showed up Monday this the media circus saying, ” expanded my list to two more whole teams and they still won’t trade me…. the Ebola virus has left the locker room.

      Also Kantner has played to a ws/48 ~ .200 over his last 4,000 minutes. He is an elite O rebounder and has an elite TS%. The notion he is going to “take minutes” from WHG of KP is just silly…. if he is taking their minutes then they might try playing better. Melo isn’t elite anymore (other than usage) at anything and his efficiency has been nothing to write home about. Kantner sucks at D but since when has Melo been Bill Russell?

      Will Melo play better in the short term for OKC…. yeah probably, but who cares? He wasn’t going to try here anymore as he proved last year.

      The drama is over, the sabotaging teams/coaches is over and the unbridled chucking/ball stopping is over. We didn’t have to take a bad contract or a longer contract and the field is open for young players to play, for them to surprise on the upside or for us to bag a real pick next year!

      Life is good again!

    17. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      @17

      Woj reported that the Knicks were interested in Ferguson and/or a first rounder but OKC wouldn’t budge sans a 3rd team.

    18. Zanzibar

      Kantner sucks at D but since when has Melo been Bill Russell?

      It’s a lot worse when your center is a complete sieve. And Melo will not be such a liability on defense playing the 4. That’s something both Presti and Morey appreciated.

      Also Kantner has played to a ws/48 ~ .200 over his last 4,000 minutes. He is an elite O rebounder and has an elite TS%.

      People said the same thing about Calderon’s TS% after the Chandler trade. I tried to tell y’all at the time that you need to look at plus/minus stats for these types of players. But Kanter is not the real issue here; it’s that we could have gotten a better deal from Presti which included Kanter.

      Practically speaking, there had to be a deal done by Monday.

      No it didn’t. We could have told Melo it’s OK not to report for a week or so. We could have leaked that Melo was ready to expand the list of teams to get Presti to give us a couple more younger players in any deal. And maybe Melo would have included Portland if Presti balked. The OKC deal would still have been there.

    19. Bruno Almeida

      @21

      Yes. Please, let’s stop with this speculation that the Knicks could have gotten more. Nobody knows, and every single report we have says that Cleveland ignored the Knicks calls and the Thunder wouldn’t budge from this offer.

      The Knicks got what was available, a better offer than the Rockets one, and kept true to what they told Melo, that if he expanded his list he would be traded before camp.

      Y’all keep complaining about management being a damn mess, and when they are taking steps getting away from the mess (and being correct with a player who’s been here for 7.5 years) you call them stupid again. Waiting for better offers would be a major slap on Anthony’s face, period.

      Anthony finally leaves, and yet the discussion is still “is he a star? Is he good?”.

      Id rather stick with what he’s produced in the last couple of years, which is a mediocre player, and wish him good luck.

    20. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Also Melo was just as bad on D against 4s as he is against 3s–he was just way better offensively at the 4 and was a few years younger which lead to a halo effect

      He’s never, ever been close to adequate on d.

    21. Zanzibar

      Woj reported that the Knicks were interested in Ferguson and/or a first rounder but OKC wouldn’t budge sans a 3rd team.

      It’s called negotiating. Does anybody really believe that Presti in “win now” mode would have held up any trade because of 19yo Ferguson and Huestis? He sensed that NYK were in panic mode about training camp and took them to the cleaners. If Morey were our GM, he would have ended up with Kanter/Ferguson/Huestis/Chicago pick and more. The Baker and Timmy signings and now this demonstrate that our front office is inept in this regard.

    22. stratomatic's love hate relationship with The Knicks because of Melo is over

      I’m going to take a guess and say the starting lineup to open the season will be Hernangomez, Porzingis, Hardaway Jr, Lee, and Sessions. If they want to go a little bigger they will put Thomas in for Lee and move Hardaway to SG.

    23. Early Bird

      It’s called negotiating. Does anybody really believe that Presti in “win now” mode would have held up any trade because of 19yo Ferguson and Huestis? He sensed that NYK were in panic mode about training camp and took them to the cleaners. If Morey were our GM, he would have ended up with Kanter/Ferguson/Huestis/Chicago pick and more. The Baker and Timmy signings and now this demonstrate that our front office is inept in this regard.

      How do we negotiate when they know no other team can trade with us for Melo without taking back Ryan Anderson? They know Cavs don’t have anything to give up or don’t want to. There’s literally no other teams the Knicks can make a deal with.

    24. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      @25

      Negotiating is exactly what they were doing when they made the OKC deal, dude. The talks had been on and off for weeks and then really heated up this weekend. We asked for Ferguson or a first, they said no. Line-setting is a key part of negotiating. It’s not like Perry just called Presti and opened with “hey we just want Kanter and a 2nd”, with Presti responding “ok here’s McDermott too!” They spent two days talking about the particulars and this is what they came up with. Also, it’s not entirely obvious that a late first is going to be better than Chicago’s 2nd AND it’s not entirely obvious that Ferguson is any better than the Chicago 2nd since he was horrible in the Australian league. Furthermore, walking away from the best deal available is far worse than not getting max value on said deal. Presti knew this, Perry knew this, so they made a mutually advantageous trade while we were over a barrel. Melo’s value was only going to decrease by the trade deadline as he sulked and jogged his way to another sub .100 WS/48 season and then we’re stuck with him opting in next year or with Ryan Anderson. That would’ve been a disaster.

      There is no possible world in which 33 year old Melo nets 3-4 players and a pick–being win now doesn’t mean you make Knicks-esque trades if you’re a competent front office.

    25. kevin5318

      Someone on twitter mentioned that Kanter had much better defensive stats at the 4 than the 5. KP/Kanter will probably still be bad defensively but not Amare/Bargs bad.

    26. JK47

      Maybe Melo plays better for OKC than he did here. Fine. Good for him, and good for them. He sucked for us for three years running, and played like a league average player from the minute he signed the MMM deal. His numbers over the past three years:

      6,496 minutes
      .532 TS%
      30.0 USG%
      .103 WS48

      That is mediocre production defined. Those were his age 30-32 seasons. The Thunder are getting the back end of that contract, his age 33-34 seasons. Maybe he has a bounce-back season or two in him. Whatever. I don’t care. He played like a dog last year, and has not been good in several years. His trade value was not high, for completely sensible reasons. We got rid of a league-average player making a max salary. That’s all you really need to know.

    27. Early Bird

      I think we have a lot of options and we’ll just have to wait half the season to see where the pieces land.

      We can run out KP and Kanter together. KP’s range on D might help cover the holes in Kanter’s D.

      We could run and gun with THJr, Frank, McDermott, KP and Beasley or O’Quinn.

      Willy can be stuck into just about any lineup thanks to his passing and offense.

      The real issue is the frontcourt glut and who starts/who’s out. I don’t want to write off O’Quinn or Noah, they both still have valuable skills and are heads and shoulders better on Defense than Kanter or Willy.

    28. Bruno Almeida

      I completely agree with Silky and JK47.

      Let’s rejoice the rebuild, and see what the young dudes have to offer. I’m so happy I’ll be able to watch the Knicks with excitement again without drama, without Rose and now Melo.

      For that alone I’ll give credit to Mills and Perry, they said it was a move towards a young team, and they made the moves. Are the moves the ideal pipe dream perfect situations? Of course not, but it’s commendable anyway. It’s a new era.

    29. Zanzibar

      There is no possible world in which 33 year old Melo nets 3-4 players and a pick–being win now doesn’t mean you make Knicks-esque trades if you’re a competent front office.

      If you’re a competent front office, you don’t trade for George and watch him walk out the door and maybe Westbrook follows him. The luxury tax hit tips you off that OKC’s all in on making this work. You don’t let a pick in the 20s like 19 yo Ferguson or Huestis be a deal-breaker in that situation. Is that so hard to comprehend? I know you have great confidence in Mills’ and Perry’s negotiating skills. Did the Baker and Timmy contracts instill this confidence in you?

      They spent two days talking about the particulars and this is what they came up with.

      Presti decided to test the NYK front office at the training camp deadline and they acted like graduates of Trump University.

      Presti knew this, Perry knew this, so they made a mutually advantageous trade while we were over a barrel.

      We had a lot more leverage here than you portray. Melo wanted out, he expanded the list to two more teams. We could have told Melo we’re getting a sh!t deal from OKC at the moment but we think they will do a better deal if pressured. Open up Portland as an option; tell Melo we’ll do the OKC deal first if they give us Ferguson/Chicago pick/Kanter.

      Also, it’s not entirely obvious that a late first is going to be better than Chicago’s 2nd AND it’s not entirely obvious that Ferguson is any better than the Chicago 2nd since he was horrible in the Australian league

      Nobody knows but the whole gist is that we should have – and would have – gotten both if we had a competent front office.

    30. Early Bird

      We literally have no other viable trade partners. How are we negotiating a better position? You don’t think OKC knew that?

    31. johnno

      @25 — before you say with such certainty that Morey, the master negotiator, would have fleeced OKC, you might want to take a look at what he gave up for Paul — seven players (four of whom had ws48 over .100 — that is, better than Melo’s — including two who were just 22), a first round pick and cash. He got a superstar, but he didn’t exactly take the Clippers to the cleaners. And he left himself with almost no assets to acquire Melo.

    32. ClashFan

      @32
      I’m with you guys. This is a good, solid trade, a B. No, not a “home run,” but the Knicks picked up two decent assets (Kanter and Chicago’s 2nd rounder).

      If Kanter is not moved this year, he might opt out, and the Knicks could have well over $20m in cap space this next offseason. He’s an efficient scorer and good rebounder. He has value around the league.

      The team should be fun to watch. Hopefully no maltcontents. The team is under the cap, and might be even moreseo if another deal happens during camp. And, the tank could yield a high pick next summer.

    33. JK47

      We had very little leverage because Melo has a max contract, a NTC, and isn’t that good. We dumped one of the worst contracts in the league. You don’t get bomb-ass packages in return for declining veterans on outrageous contracts.

    34. Bruno Almeida

      You do realize OKC literally could not offer a first round pick until 2022 right?

      Huestis is 25 and is terrible, Ferguson was bad in the Australian league and the only other decent young players OKC had were Grant and Abrines. Why the hell would Sam Presti, a genius according to the media, gut his own team to bring back a league average 33 year old superstar? When nobody else is offering more?

    35. JK47

      It’s still rather amazing to me that people who have watched Melo play completely mediocre basketball for three consecutive years think he should still bring some huge haul of a return, or that this trade should have been held up because Terrance Ferguson was such an awesome asset that we just HAD to have. Melo is a “star” in name only. It’s a friggin’ miracle that we were able to move this contract and aren’t stuck with 4500 more minutes of his wanton chuckery.

    36. ClashFan

      People griping about this trade are really underrating how bad it would have been to have Melo come to camp, and not just symbolically.

      Melo was only willing to go to 3 teams, one of which (Cleveland) may not have been interested at all. The deal needed to be done soon enough for it to be made official on Monday. There was a need for urgency here.

    37. Totes McGoats Makes 18mil For 14ppg

      I think if the Knicks stand pat, we have enough talent to win around 40 games. But, that won’t be the reality as most of that talent is young & unproven, perpetually injured, or solid veterans that add value but aren’t difference makers individually. We all expect KP & Willy to be good, but no one knows if they are ready to be the focus of opposing defenses yet. Over the offseason, they’ve looked ready playing for their national teams- but that’s nothing like the rigors of a full NBA season. Given the fact that there are so many unknowns- including TH2’s ascension to the #2 guy- it’s reasonable to expect around 34 wins. More than that if Hornacek’s offensive game plan improves ball movement.

      I do wonder if Kanter starts now. On defense he can check most 4’s better than he can 5’s- and maybe better than Willy checks 4’s- leaving KP to protect the paint, which is a strength of his. Hornacek may hafta start Kanter for a while to showcase him for a trade as his presence does take minutes from Willy & KOQ when you consider that a healthy Noah has to play. Best case scenario is Noah is still injured and gets stretched or even retires.

    38. Zanzibar

      before you say with such certainty that Morey, the master negotiator, would have fleeced OKC,

      I never said that. Morey would have gotten a deal that would have been a win-win deal for both teams. I don’t what to say to anyone if they think Presti would have let Ferguson be a deal-breaker in all of this. It’s ludicrous.

      We literally have no other viable trade partners. How are we negotiating a better position? You don’t think OKC knew that?

      How do you know Melo wouldn’t have included Portland per the agreement I just outlined? NYK front office waited this long and then folded like cheap tents at the training camp deadline. We could have told Melo it’s OK not to attend training camp while the negotiations continued. Who cares about the media storm during this? Is it gonna affect our team chemistry as it makes a bid for the prized 8th seed? We need to focus on getting young guys on favorable contracts and playing them.

    39. Early Bird

      How do you know Melo wouldn’t have included Portland per the agreement I just outlined?

      IDK, maybe because he just expanded the teams and Portland still wasn’t one of them? Maybe because Portland can’t offer a better package than what we got anyway? Maybe because Melo isn’t completely oblivious to what could be offered in an OKC trade and so has no reason to cave.

      We already have over 20 players on the roster. We cut any additional players we get anyway.

    40. thenoblefacehumper

      The deal is objectively good, so I don’t care if it’s possible we could’ve gotten more if X, Y, and Z happened. By the same logic we also could’ve lost the opportunity to make this deal.

      We have less money on the books going forward and nice pick. I can’t fathom thinking that’s somehow bad. I’m actually surprised we were able to make this deal seeing as how Melo is a hilariously bad contract these days. Anything Kanter and McDermott give us is gravy, the trade makes sense even if they never suit up.

    41. Zanzibar

      You do realize OKC literally could not offer a first round pick until 2022 right?

      Huestis is 25 and is terrible, Ferguson was bad in the Australian league and the only other decent young players OKC had were Grant and Abrines. Why the hell would Sam Presti, a genius according to the media, gut his own team to bring back a league average 33 year old superstar? When nobody else is offering more?

      – Where did I ever mention a 1st round pick?
      – If Huestis and Ferguson are so terrible, why wouldn’t Presti include them in the deal?
      – Melo as the 3rd or 4th best player on the team and playing at the 4 position could work just fine and he seems to be good fit for either Houston or OKC in that role. Morey understandably did not want to part with Gordon and Ariza for Melo but was willing to trade picks/Hartenstein and stuff like that. Kanter is exposed in the playoffs and Ferguson/Huestis/2nd round pick is not the same as Ariza and Gordon.

      It’s still rather amazing to me that people who have watched Melo play completely mediocre basketball for three consecutive years think he should still bring some huge haul of a return, or that this trade should have been held up because Terrance Ferguson was such an awesome asset that we just HAD to have. Melo is a “star” in name only. It’s a friggin’ miracle that we were able to move this contract and aren’t stuck with 4500 more minutes of his wanton chuckery.

      Kanter/Ferguson/Huestis/2nd round pick is a huge haul? Nah – and I guess you’re smarter than Morey and Presti about Melo’s utility at this stage.

    42. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Just as a reminder, any Portland deal would have to include Meyers Leonard, who is under contract until 2020, whereas Kanter–the better player–is only under contract this year and maybe next if he exercises his player option. Or instead of Leonard we could’ve had, god forbid, Evan Turner. Collins wouldn’t have been on the table, but we might’ve gotten a mid first, somewhere in the 17-22 range. I’ll take cap space and the number 32 pick, please. Harkless would’ve been nice, though.

      The best possible trade from Portland we could get probably would’ve been Leonard, Harkless, Ed Davis’ expiring, and this year’s first; or, Leonard, Harkless, Swanigan, and Davis’ expiring (Swanigan’s value is limited given our extremely crowded frontcourt.) That’s better than what we got, but the price to be paid was Melo poisoning the team until the trade deadline with no guarantee that he does in fact waive his NTC for Portland, all the while tanking his trade value further as he plays like hot fucking garbage. You have to not just evaluate the trade vis a vis other possible trades (of which the trade we got was the best one), but also the alternative, i.e., if no trade materializes. And the risk of no trade materializing increases sharply as the season goes on, given the entirely reasonable assumption that Melo was going to play like shit if he wasn’t traded before the deadline. And that outcome means absolute disaster when Melo decides to opt-in and cash-in because nobody wants his services.

      Also, do we really want to risk straining KP’s relationship with this organization even further by having the media circus that comes with Melo staying? There’s so much more to this trade than asset acquisition–it’s an organizational sea change.

    43. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      – If Huestis and Ferguson are so terrible, why wouldn’t Presti include them in the deal?

      Because he knew he didn’t have to because he knew they were the only game in town for a Melo trade, because we refused to take back Ryan Anderson. Just because the assets are bad doesn’t mean you just throw them in for free. You keep any asset you can, no matter how marginal its value.

    44. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Here’s a non-Melo related question: Do people think this trade is at all possible/would Cleveland balk?

      http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ycpfwglm

      It’s KOQ + Lee for Osman + Shumpert, straight up. Cleveland clearly wins the deal as far as productivity goes, but we get a nice asset and hopefully our future SF (the one named Doncic at least) in exchange for taking on Shump’s bad contract. This also has the salutary effect of securing our tank.

    45. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      On another, non-Melo related note:

      It’s beautiful seeing America’s athletes come together in solidarity in protest against our malicious idiot-in-chief. Times like these make it apparent that sports can be so much more than mere billion dollar entertainments.

    46. Bruno Almeida

      @46

      You keep harping on this as you knew how the negotiations went, please. You don’t even know if the Knicks wanted those players, you dont know if Presti offered anything else, nothing.

      I talked about the first round because a 1st would be the only sweetener that would make sense for the Knicks. Huestis is useless and would be in the G-League or cut, and Ferguson would have zero playing time with Lee / THJr / McDermott / Lance / Ntilikina and Baker taking minutes at the 2. Why stop an entire deal that makes your team better by standing pat and demanding useless players?

      You’re advocating for the Knicks management to have been huge dicks to Melo, when he did everything he was asked of (and daily reminder, it’s not his fault he had an NTC) and only asked for one thing: trade me before camp. I can understand doing this for an extra first rounder or a legit prospect, not for freaking Huestis or Ferguson.

      You’re so obsessed with this idea that “Kanter was exposed in the playoffs” and yet you think Melo, who has been exposed in the last 3 years is worth of so much more.

    47. Cock Jowles, #1 League-Average Superstar

      If the Knicks had received a single 2nd-round pick in return for Carmelo, it would have been a fair deal.

      You really have to be delusional about his recent production and his future production if you think the Knicks lost any part of this trade. As mentioned above, the Knicks won this trade even if the two players received never play a minute for the team.

    48. fmikieo

      By most, if not all advanced and per 36 metrics, the Knicks picked up the best player in this trade in Kanter. And he’s only 25, 8 years younger than Melo.

      Even though McDermott was just extra salary thrown in to make this, he could well earn himself a starting job on this team. In fact, the Knicks traded an overpaid sixth man chucker and got (potentially) 1-2 starters.

      I call that a win.

    49. chrisconley

      I highly doubt Morey could have gotten much more. He’s never been in such a terribly trade disadvantaged position. Presti probably refused to trade Huestis, Ferguson bc he knows if the stars bolt next year they go full rebuild and need youngins. Similar to Cavs. Half win now, half “what if X leaves?” Presti prob said “don’t like this? Take Anderson from HOU.” And that was the end of it. This assumption that he’s so desperate to keep WB and George that he’d give up anything to get Melo is specious. All summer I was worried Mills and co. would F up the team for years to come with the Melo trade (still pissed about THJ), but they didn’t. Hallelujah.

    50. Zanzibar

      You’re so obsessed with this idea that “Kanter was exposed in the playoffs” and yet you think Melo, who has been exposed in the last 3 years is worth of so much more.

      I didn’t want to sign Melo, I wanted a S&T to Chicago. And I wanted Phil to trade him every trade deadline and every summer. But the Melo hate is really overboard here. I think it’s likely that Melo plays better on a contender when he’s the 3rd option on offense and plays the 4 position. Apparently, Morey and Presti agree. But I guess Bruno and Jowles saying know better.

      You keep harping on this as you knew how the negotiations went, please. You don’t even know if the Knicks wanted those players, you don’t know if Presti offered anything else, nothing.

      It’s not hard to envision the negotiations. We all knew Kanter had to be part of any deal. And yes I’m saying it – nay SHOUTING IT – Knicks should want young players on favorable contracts at this stage. Blasphemous, I know! I don’t know if 19yo Ferguson will pan out but I do know we should be getting guys like that and playing them. Since he’s only 19yo on a 4-year deal, there is not great urgency to play him huge minutes this season. We could send him to the G League. And again for the umpteenth time, the odds strongly favor that Presti would not make a 19yo mid-to-late first a deal-breaker. He’s probably surprised as anyone that the Knick front office folded their hand at the training camp deadline. But I guess this is gonna be par for the course for the team that negotiated the Baker and THJ contracts.

      And how did you determine Huestis is a bust after 86 minutes played in the NBA? He’s looks to me like a guy who couldn’t crack the rotation of a top team. Yeah I mean why acquire the guy since we’re so stacked at the 3 position.

      Only position we need vet is the 1 guard. Trade Lee to free up mins for…

    51. danvt

      We had very little leverage because Melo has a max contract, a NTC, and isn’t that good. We dumped one of the worst contracts in the league. You don’t get bomb-ass packages in return for declining veterans on outrageous contracts.

      +1
      Perry essentially traded post suspension ARod. I didn’t think it would be possible. I disagree that he can’t be a decent to good piece in the right situation, but the contract and the NTC, I thought, made him un-moveable. I think HOU and CLE’s endgame was to see him bought out and swoop for the minimum. Lots of teams would have loved to add him for the minimum.

      Most of our friends don’t pay as close attention to this as we do. They’re still thinking about Syracuse. Ten years ain’t what it used to be. It goes by fast. They think we should get Lonzo Ball, a future 1st and expiring contracts for our “superstar”, “hall of famer”, still in his prime.

      Truth is we’re very fortunate to get training camp started with our actual roster and not having to be making changes on the fly once the season starts. Remember last year when DRose was busy with his rape trial and missed two weeks? Now we can, you know, practice…

    52. Ntilakilla

      And Melo will not be such a liability on defense playing the 4.

      Melo’s knees can’t hold up at the 4. Remember, that’s why he stopped doing it for us after 2013.

      Y’all keep complaining about management being a damn mess, and when they are taking steps getting away from the mess (and being correct with a player who’s been here for 7.5 years) you call them stupid again. Waiting for better offers would be a major slap on Anthony’s face, period.

      This.

    53. Bruno Almeida

      Huestis managed 86 minutes in 2 years for the Thunder, who had holes everywhere after KD left and could have used any help. The fact that he’s already 25 and has shown nothing is enough to think he’s not a promising player.

      And there’s no need to be snarky or sarcastic, it only makes your argument look even worse. You’re talking about possibilities with Melo, I’m talking about what I’ve seen, which is a mediocre aging player. If you want to believe he’ll be good and that the trade was terrible suit yourself.

      Fact is, you have no idea how negotiations went and you’re shouting that the Knicks fucked it up when there’s no possible way you could know that.

    54. Owen

      After all these years of saying he’d make a great third banana it’s exciting Melo is finally getting his chance. Really the fourth or fifth banana on the squad but close enough.

      His having a solid season in OKC won’t change anything about this trade. He had to go.

    55. thenoblefacehumper

      It actually seems pretty likely that Presti would hold up the deal over the guy they just drafted. This is such a ridiculous hill to die on. Melo makes a metric fuckton of money and was below average last year. That’s really all you need to know. The Knicks are inarguably in a better position as a result of this deal.

    56. Totes McGoats Makes 18mil For 14ppg

      Why does it even matter whether OKC won the trade or not. This trade is a win-win on both sides because:
      1. OKC got a gifted scorer/all star caliber player who actually fits with Westbrook and George without dumping core rotation pieces- when scoring is what they absolutely need when Westbrook is out.
      2. The Knicks have made yet another move away from thw dysfunction we’re used to seeing.
      3. The Knicks got rid of an aging star whose efficiency has been in decline and makes a fuckton of money in return for 2 25y/o rotation pieces and less salary. The only vets 30 and up we have left are great for mentor roles.

      That’s a win for the team even though the talent doesn’t add up

    57. thenoblefacehumper

      Being able to analyze the team, warts and all, without thinking about Carmelo Anthony is reeeeeeeally fucking nice.

      A few thoughts:

      -Enes Kanter is so weird. He’s legitimately one of the better scorers in the NBA and yet can barely stay on the floor. It’s hard to imagine we can’t get an asset for him but I guess Bargnani-level defense will do that.
      -This might come back to haunt me but I don’t think we can tank with the best of them unless a few more moves are coming. Willy, Kanter, Hardaway, Lee, KOQ, and hopefully Porzingis is a lot more production than the Bulls/Hawks/Nets/Suns have. Some god damn lottery luck for once would be appreciated.
      -I hope more moves are coming. There is literally no reason whatsoever Courtney Lee and KOQ should be on this basketball team. Kanter too, but I imagine we’ll need him to build up some value first.
      -I think the Thunder will be pretty good (not great) but I could also see the whole thing kind of imploding. Most metrics do not like a Kanter-Melo swap and there are a lot of personalities on that team. Should be interesting viewing.

    58. geo

      fuck melo…he’s an active player who ain’t wearing our uniform…

      looking forward to see how things shake out this season…i’m in for 35 wins…

      hopefully – may the best man win the starting job…

      hopefully – horny settles on some kind of rotations early on and doesn’t switch up each game…

      hopefully – we can all let phil, rose and melo go…

      they’ve each done some serious damage to knick fans last season…

      rooting for jarrett to make a comeback this season…

    59. Zanzibar

      Melo’s knees can’t hold up at the 4. Remember, that’s why he stopped doing it for us after 2013.

      Yes and that’s why I argued against giving KP big minutes at the 5 in his first couple of years. But, regarding the PF position, the Zach Randolphs and David Wests are a dying breed in favor of stretch 4’s so it’s not so bruising as it once was. I think Melo chasing 3’s is probably harder on the knees at this stage than boxing out and guarding stretch 4’s. And it shouldn’t be an issue when they play Houston or GSW.

    60. JK47

      Melo is a tweener at this stage of his career. Too slow and unathletic to guard SFs, too small and feeble to rebound and bang with PFs. Yes, it’s more of a stretch forward league now, so that mitigates the problem somewhat, but do you want a power forward with a single-digit TRB%? Melo had 6.2 rebounds per 36 last year. That just doesn’t cut it.

      On OKC the plan is that everybody boxes out and Westbrook snags the rebounds, so they can hide Melo’s bad rebounding. But the Knicks’ defensive rebounding sucked ass, ranking dead last in the NBA. It was a big reason why the defense overall was so putrid.

    61. Zanzibar

      If you want to believe he’ll be good and that the trade was terrible suit yourself…..Fact is, you have no idea how negotiations went and you’re shouting that the Knicks fucked it up when there’s no possible way you could know that.

      I gave the trade a “C” which I don’t believe is “terrible”. Pelton gave it a “D” and Sports Illustrated a “D+”. A “D” is terrible in my book. Speaking of language, I think it’s kind of laughable that some people proclaim 19yo Ferguson is a terrible player and then a few posts later claim Presti doesn’t want to give up an “asset” so Ferguson would be a show-stopper. And someone said that Knicks holding up the trade for a 1st round pick might make sense but fails to acknowledge that Ferguson is a 2017 1st round pick.

      Your statement suggests we should never question any deal because we don’t know how negotiations went. Not buying it. This trade’s more or less an open book, a simple deal between only 2 teams. Kanter had to be part of the deal. Sure we don’t know for sure whether Presti would have interest in KOQ or Kuz. We don’t know if Knicks have a separate deal lined up for KOQ after Melo trade is completed. What I’m saying is even if you take those guys out of any deal (they would only have made any trade more attractive to OKC), the evidence strongly suggests Presti would not have walked away from any deal including Ferguson and Huestis. These guys have played a total of 86 minutes and have no playoff experience in contrast to Abrines. They’re not gonna be able to help a contender in the next couple of years. It’s very unlikely OKC would be able to trade them for someone who could have the impact of Melo. Again once Presti was willing to add quite a bit to the luxury tax burden by taking Melo you knew he really wanted Melo.

    62. #fireRambis

      Kanter and Noah both pulling a big chunk of the cap so what possible starting lineup:
      Baker
      Timmy
      Lee
      KP
      Willy or Noah?

      first game back vs OKC … Boston v Cavs as well

    63. Zanzibar

      On OKC the plan is that everybody boxes out and Westbrook snags the rebounds, so they can hide Melo’s bad rebounding. But the Knicks’ defensive rebounding sucked ass, ranking dead last in the NBA. It was a big reason why the defense overall was so putrid.

      I remember the team rebounding actually improved when we had a lineup of Felton/JR/Shump/Melo/ Bargs. Melo was OK as a rebounder in that lineup and JR/Shump were plus rebounders. I think OKC will be a similar situation: Westbrook/Roberson/George are all above average rebounders at their positions.

    64. JK47

      Ron Baker ain’t a point guard. And there are enough warm body PG types around now that they don’t need him to try and fail to play PG.

    65. Totes McGoats Makes 18mil For 14ppg

      Wait…since when has Melo been a bad rebounder? He’s always been a good rebounding SF, except for this past season where he completely mailed it in. And he still rebounds well enough to be a PF in today’s NBA. I get that he can’t be counted on as your main rebounder, so whoever he plays for has to have a physical 5 next to him. OKC won’t suffer with him at PF, they have Roberson, Westbrook, and Adams. I don’t really think George is a better rebounder than Melo, but he’s above average in that department. OKC’s still gonna get alot of boards

    66. Bruno Almeida

      @70

      You’re definitely reading too much into my words.

      You’ve been repetitively saying the Knicks could have gotten more from OKC. I replied that there’s no way you or anyone other than the Knicks and OKC know that.

      That literally does not mean that you can’t question trades, I even said that I have no issue at all if you still think its a terrible deal.

      You can question trades, of course. I questioned the Melo to Knicks trade plenty in my life, but based on my perception that Melo was not worth the package, not based on some vague assumption that if the Knicks had done x y or z the Nuggets would have accepted a more Knicks favorable trade. That’s the issue I have with your argument, how you assume that a better deal was possible even though you have no idea of that and there’s no real indication that a better deal was indeed available.

      What is the evidence that Presti was willing to give away Ferguson for example?

    67. lavor postell

      Melo’s a good rebounder when he’s trying. Last year he didn’t try and posted at basically a career worst level. If he bumps back up to his normal levels he’s a below average rebounder at the 4, but not god awful.

    68. JK47

      Melo has very little lift. He’s a below-the-rim player at this point of his career. He rarely dunks and his rebounding stunk last year. Maybe he just wasn’t trying or maybe he’s in the teeth of his decline phase.

    69. johnnyhoops

      Why not just go by salary to determine who starts for us?

      Noah (KP until he gets back)
      Kanter
      Thomas
      Hardaway
      Lee

    70. stratomatic's love hate relationship with The Knicks because of Melo is over

      A few points.

      1. We aren’t going to trade Kanter because we won’t be able to without sweetening the deal.

      2. Melo’s NTC clause made moving his contract tougher, but Melo’s contract was easier to trade than Kanter’s will be. Among players and GMs, Melo is still considered a star player, albeit on his way down. That’s why every team he waved his NTC for made an offer and others wanted him also. Kanter is widely considered to a be a train wreck on defense and barely playable against many match ups.

      3. The good thing about the deal is that it didn’t do any damage like Anderson or Leonard would have.

      4, The bad thing about the deal is “need”. What the Knicks needed was defense. What they didn’t need was another big man. What they got back was a big man that plays no defense. smh It could even prompt them to trade KOQ (who will be easy to move) even though arguably we are better off with KOQ than Kanter (I think that).

      5. This deal in no way helped the Knicks rebuild other than the hope some early 2nd round pick turns into a rotation player and that we may have a tad more cap flexibility depending on what else happens.

    71. stratomatic's love hate relationship with The Knicks because of Melo is over

      Ron Baker ain’t a point guard. And there are enough warm body PG types around now that they don’t need him to try and fail to play PG.

      Both Baker and Frank would have been fine PGs in the triangle, but neither is going to be able to run the offense we are going to try to play this year unless God intervenes and magically gives them skills they did not have recently. The hope is Frank can still develop them.

    72. KnickfaninNJ

      Frank or someone, can you help me with the following question? How did the Knicks manage to trade $26M in salary for omly $21M? OKC was way over the cap, so was this just within the allowed error of matching salary for trades?

      Either way, getting $5M lower in total committed salary for this year and $9M lower for 2018-2019 is a significant benefit of this trade. The $9M figure comes because Kanter’s salary will go down $2M and Melo’s salary will go up $2M for 2018-2019.

    73. stratomatic's love hate relationship with The Knicks because of Melo is over

      Just for the record, I was planning on making a big bet on the “over” this season if it stayed in the 30-31 range (especially if we brought back a productive defensive minded SF) , but I’m not very enthusiastic about that now. I think we got worse as a result of this deal. It’s not so much that I value Melo. It’s that I don’t see where Kanter’s minutes are an improvement over anyone that could have been playing in those minutes anyway. But I think we lost quality at SF.

    74. KnickfaninNJ

      Note that apparently Kanter had a trade kicker which he received because of this trade. I think this is included in my figures, but i am not sure its totally correct. Either way we save salary both of the next two years.

    75. Zanzibar

      What is the evidence that Presti was willing to give away Ferguson for example?

      Common sense? Houston blew away OKC in playoffs and added CP3. OKC added George but ya gotta believe Presti realizes that’s not enough to defeat Rockets let alone GSW. Why does he care? Because he wants George to stay. If George leaves which would be bad enough, Westbrook very well might follow. If that happens, OKC ticket sales and TV revenues plummet and it’s gonna be hard to find players who want to play in Oklahoma. That’s why the owner is willing to go deeper into the luxury tax (and risk even repeater penalty) by trading for Melo. So why in the world would Presti then let a 19yo late 1st round pick and Huestis be a deal-breaker? Abrines I could understand because their bench is weak but not Ferguson or Huestis who have no NBA experience. And if we’ve shopped KOQ and found no takers, I would think Presti would be delighted to take him for a year to strengthen the bench.

    76. KnickfaninNJ

      Strat, I think you are right about the Knick’s win totals going down this year because of this trade, but I don’t think Knick’s Management cares about that. They just want a young team with potential to get better in later years. It’s going to be difficult watching them sometimes, but at least we have interesting players to root for. Maybe Kanter is Bargnani II; but at least we didn’t trade a first for him and he’s young enough to still improve, and Hornacek has no reason to play him given the other centers we have already.

    77. Zanzibar

      I do agree that people like Pelton (whom I respect) need to say what they would have done if they give the Knicks a grade of “D”. Let me lay out exactly what I would have done if I were GM/POBO:

      (1) Tell Melo no need to report to training camp for next week or two while negotiations continue.

      (2) Tell Melo we’re not trading him to Cavs for Shump/Frye/Jefferson but we would do a deal where we get Osman and a protected first in addition to Shump and Frye. If Cavs want to take KOQ and/or Kuz and/or Randle into their trade exceptions or via trades, we could accommodate that. So Melo get on the horn to Bron and try to make it happen.

      (3) Tell Melo we think an OKC deal is doable but Presti is balking at giving us a couple of young players who would be of no use to OKC for the next couple of years. We’d be willing to do a deal for Kanter/Ferguson/Huestis/Chicago pick. We’ll swap Kuz for McD if they want. We’ll give them KOQ if they want but we need more young prospects to do this deal. We would need Melo to open up Portland as an option to put pressure on Presti with the agreement that we would take OKC deal first (no matter then Portland offer) if Presti relents. If Melo balks, we tell him we plan to use him as 6th man off the bench this year because we have to move forward with our focus on young players and our new direction.

    78. johnnyhoops

      @81 The salaries in the trade have to be within 125% of each other.

      And yeah, picking up an additional $5 million of cap space is a big benefit.

    79. stratomatic's love hate relationship with The Knicks because of Melo is over

      @86

      Agree 100%.

      I just wish we got back something that actually moved the chain forward. That’s why my initial response was pretty negative. But after mellowing and thinking about it, I’m disappointed, but OK with the deal.

      My girlfriend bought me my Christmas present last night.

      I’m going to the MSG to watch the Knicks/Thunder and the return of Melo.

    80. Z-man

      It’s really silly to quibble over the deal. It is not a home run, but a solid double. It’s a significant step in the right direction. It turns the page from a regrettable era and starts the new one immediately w/o unnecessary distraction. I said at the time that I would have waited longer to try to extract more from OKC or get a better deal from someone else, but whatever. Kanter is about the same as THjr…not worth the salary he is getting paid, but still a decent young piece. McBuckets is window dressing. The pick is fine. For two years or less, Kanter is at best a very good rotation player and at worst a non-distraction and injury-to-Willy-or-KP insurance. He can definitely be traded w/o a sweetener, or kept for two years as cap filler. Maybe he opts out in pursuit of a longer term deal.

      Just to have the drama over is a breath of fresh air. I don’t think it says anything bad about management that they made this deal, and it might actually say something really good.

    81. Bruno Almeida

      @91

      That’s my point of view too. Perfect deals are hard to come by and we don’t even know how everything will play out, maybe Kanter sucks, maybe he’ll improve and be very tradeable. It’s still reason to be excited that a new page has been turned and that management is committed to a solid strategy for the first time in how long?

    82. KnickfaninNJ

      Johnnyhoops , thanks. I kind of knew about the 125% I just didn’t do the math to realize the 25% could amount to 5$M.

      Strat, enjoy the game!

    83. Zanzibar

      It’s really silly to quibble over the deal.

      It’s silly to quibble over Baker’s contract.
      It’s silly to quibble over Timmy’s player option and trade kicker.
      It’s silly to quibble over acquiring young prospects who could be the next Patty Mills or Crowder.

      That’s the problem – all of these begin to add up. It appears the Knicks have finally settled on the right strategy after 17 years but Mills and Perry inspire no confidence at all. The execution so far has been lousy.

    84. bidiong

      Well it is kinda silly to quibble because we don’t make the actual decisions. So you really only need to say something is dumb once.

    85. KnickfaninNJ

      I would say Mills does not inspire confidence about hiring people for reasonable salaries. The jury is still out on Perry. Melo was really hard to trade for reasons that were no fault of Perry’s. I think he did alright, given those constraints.

    86. johnnyhoops

      KnickfaninNJ, you’re very welcome.

      So what do people think about Kanter’s WS48 hovering around .200 for the last three years? Is it legit or some kind of an illusion?

    87. Z-man

      It’s silly to quibble over Baker’s contract.
      It’s silly to quibble over Timmy’s player option and trade kicker.
      It’s silly to quibble over acquiring young prospects who could be the next Patty Mills or Crowder.

      That’s the problem – all of these begin to add up. It appears the Knicks have finally settled on the right strategy after 17 years but Mills and Perry inspire no confidence at all. The execution so far has been lousy.

      It IS silly to quibble over Baker’s contract. It means zero in the long run, so who cares?

      It is NOT silly to quibble over THjr’s contract, since that is a long-term commitment at a hefty price tag for an unproven player. It was a significant overpay. But if he continues his trend of improving play at his age, he will be well worth the money or pretty close to it. At that point, it will be silly to quibble, but for now, it is totally legit to do so.

      It IS silly to quibble over young prospects who haven’t proven anything, and who will just as likely be worse than McBuckets as better than him. Who knows (other than you, o wise one) what would have happened if the Knicks balked at this deal?

      It IS silly to look at all of these deals and infer that the Knicks are going to continue to be woefully mismanaged at this point. The only deal made by this group with any long-term implications is the THjr deal, for which the jury is still out. They did not panic into a terrible trade in ditching Melo, did not panic into a bad deal for Kyrie, did not try to re-sign Rose or any other veteran for anything more than the vet’s minimum, and made a full commitment to youth, athleticism and accountability (i.e. no veteran primadonnas on the team who can’t have minutes squeezed or be cut if they don’t toe the line w/o cap implications or media drama. They are in great position to get a decent draft pick next year. I’ for one, am really excited about the team and cautiously optimistic about this management group (especially Perry.)

    88. KnickfaninNJ

      Cole Aldridge also had nice advanced stats, but eventually it became apparent why he didn’t get much playing time. Kanter is different, but there could be good reasons that we don’t know why he doesn’t get so much playing time either. I can’t find his plus minus stats, but I remember reading they weren’t very good and that his defense was very bad. On the other hand, since he’s good at rebounding, especially offensive rebounds, he could help us there

    89. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      @97

      WS/48 overvalues scoring and conflates individual defense with team defense, so Kanter’s serious defensive deficiencies don’t hurt him as much in the metric and his offensive proficiency gets a little inflated. I think the truth is somewhere in between his WS and his BPM. He really should play PF though.

    90. KnickfaninNJ

      @101, playing Kanter at PF is an interesting thought. At the moment, KP is our starting power forward and Beasley and Kuz are probably his backups. Kanter could be better than both Beasley and Kuz (neither of whom can defend well either, as far as I have heard) So then we have WHG or Noah starting and the other playing with Kanter in the second unit. That could work pretty well. The big question mark then would be small forward, where, honestly, Lance Thomas seems to have the edge, but who knows how Dotson will do.

    91. Early Bird

      I think you pair Kanter with O’Quinn or Noah and try to hide his defensive shortcomings, a little crossover time with KP too. Kanter potentially adds a lot on offense. If you can find a way to get him on the floor you do it. McDermott could fit in well as part of a run and gun offense with THJR. That could be a pretty deadly offensive combo too.

    92. Z-man

      There will be lots of tinkering early on. Kanter will prob settle in at 20-25 mpg. Same with WHG. O’Quinn and Noah prob see less time unless Kanter or WHG falter. I also think Beasley plays his way out of the lineup and is eventually cut.

    93. Zanzibar

      @Z-Man DRed, Bruno, Silky and now you have pronounced that 19yo Ferguson after zero NBA minutes and Huestis after a total of 86 minutes are terrible and you derisively refer to me as “o wise one”? I never claimed they would be good or bad. By your logic, we should have done the deal for just McBuckets and Kanter. Why even take a 2nd round pick since it’s likely to be a bust anyway? And you know I kinda think I’ll trust Presti’s judgment (who’s got a pretty good draft record) over a group of vocal people who are clueless about Ferguson and Huestis and who just wanted Melo out no matter what the deal.

      Baker and THJ’s contracts were not just universally panned – they inspired cackling from most outsiders. And don’t kid yourself, corrupt moron Mills is the one in charge and it’s he who will make all the important decisions – not Perry.

      As for the negotiations, I laid it out in excruciating detail what I would have done and I feel confident we would have ended up with either a better deal from Portland or a better deal from Presti. Melo behaved rationally. His first choice was Houston and he waited hoping Knicks would take a Morey deal. When it became evident that wouldn’t happen, he expanded the list to Cavs and OKC. He obviously did not want to be here to do that. Is it really that much of a stretch to believe he wouldn’t have eventually included Portland or at least allowed us to use Portland as leverage to get a better deal from Presti which wouldn’t have impacted OKC’s chip chances the next couple of years? I’ve negotiated many deals in my day – we had more leverage than people realized and it was increasing not diminishing in this situation.

    94. johnnyhoops

      Speaking of playing Kanter at PF, it seems that he’s lost 40 pounds this offseason and is totally ripped at 235 lbs. This should help his defense and mobility somewhat and might make him better suited for the power forward slot. I also hear that his 3 pt shot has been coming around and that he’s been working on it.

    95. TheRant

      Am I the only person livid at Harvey Aaraton of the NY Times for posting crap like this?

      https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/24/sports/basketball/carmelo-anthony-new-york-knicks.html

      He speaks of the “original sin” of the Carmelo Anthony trade, but I distinctly recall Aaraton writing in the New York Times, just as Dolan was stepping all over his management team, that the “Knicks just had to make the trade,” even if it would surrender all of the pieces we had worked to assemble — Gallinari, Chandler, Mozgov, etc.

      I know it’s old news. And I’m glad we are finally rebuilding. I just think people who encouraged our little seven-year detour shouldn’t pretend they argued for anything otherwise back when it counted.

    96. Early Bird

      There will be lots of tinkering early on. Kanter will prob settle in at 20-25 mpg. Same with WHG. O’Quinn and Noah prob see less time unless Kanter or WHG falter. I also think Beasley plays his way out of the lineup and is eventually cut.

      I could see Beasley finding a niche as a 4 next to KP in a floor spreading offensive unit that plays too much together even though they can’t play D or rebound.

    97. Bruno Almeida

      My god, you just can’t let it go can’t you?

      Josh Huestis has a career .504 ts% and .086 ws48 in the damn D-League! He’s terrible!

      Terrance “air” Ferguson had decent but unimpressive stats as a backup for the world beaters Adelaide 36ers, whose best player was a 5’9″ dude called Jerome Randle, a guy who has a list of teams played for that if printed would be longer than KP lying down.

      If Presti thinks they’re valuable assets, or if the Knicks didn’t even ask for them, who cares? This genius GM is the same that thought Kevin Martin, Jeremy Lamb and picks were worth James Harden. Now everyone except you is a clueless Melo hater?

    98. Z-man

      Zanzibar, first, I for one never said a thing about either Ferguson or Huestis. Second, your entire argument against the trade (and the excrutiating details of what you would have done, which were indeed excrutiating to read) is based on your own assumptions of how pepole were thinking and playing their hands, nothing more. Even resident curmudgeons JK47 and THCJ are satisfied that we got better than reasonable value in this deal, given the circumstances. There was a price to be paid for avoiding a media circus and potential player/coach conflict and anything else bad that might have happened while waiting for a better deal. Mills/Perry decided to pay it. It’s not a bad choice just because it’s one that you wouldn’t have made.

      And before we label Presti such a genius, let’s remember that he set the franchise back by losing Harden in favor of Kendrick Perkins, and signed Kanter to his contract, which is just as bad as THjr’s. And that Melo has pretty much sucked for the last three years, meaning that getting anything of value for his bloated contract is good business. You can crusade against Mills and Perry all you want, but the deal is in line with their stated game plan and is better than what they could have gotten from either Cleveland or Houston. Claiming that both he would have accepted a trade to Portland and that they would have offered a better package is pure conjecture.

    99. Early Bird

      Sure maybe we could squeeze out a bit more from OKC, but consider that we currently have 21 players on our roster and need to cut one. Does Huestis or Ferguson offer us significantly more than any of the 6 players we have to cut before the season starts? Or the 3 we would have to cut before training camp?

      And what can we realistically expect to get from Portland that shows more promise than Kanter and McDermott without taking on a terrible contract?

      Houston offered us Ryan Anderson for Melo. Other teams wanted two 1sts just to take on Anderson. Melo really doesn’t have much value.

    100. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Wade got bought out by Chicago and according to Woj Cleveland, San Antonio, and Miami are his top choices. I imagine he’ll be in Cleveland and then go wherever Lebron does in FA, market permitting.

    101. latke

      I agree with people that there are a couple too many solid players on this team to view it as a sub 30 win team. Kanter especially is a problem not just because of his excellent production but also because we already have Hernangomez making 1/10th the salary. I would hope that by late December at the latest, we’ve moved Kanter and Lee. I also don’t see the problem with waiving Kanter if there are no teams interested in him. These efficient volume scorers who can’t defend are great at lifting the floor of bad teams but tend to struggle to contribute meaningfully on good ones… especially centers.

      What about Minnesota? They kinda need a rebounder and bench scorer, and Kanter can fill both those roles. Aldrich + Bjelica works… Bjelica only has a year left, and Cole is only guaranteed $2m for 18/19, so that would cut $15m of salary. You could probably even get a 2nd rounder thrown in the pot.

    102. KnickfaninNJ

      I agree we are likely to trade someone from the front court at some time. But I am not sure it will be Kanter. I think that, excepting Porzingis, almost every spot in the front court is up for grabs in training camp. At the moment, I’d like it to be Kanter who is traded rather than Hernangomez, because Hernangomez is younger, and I think he passes better and probably is a better defender at the center position. But Kanter could out perform him this season, who knows. They are pretty close in statistics. I really don’t think there is any hurry though.

    103. plenty

      111 –

      Concur 100%…

      If common sense = evidence then how was OJ not ruled a murderer?

      Jokes aside – Really confusing to read that line, as if it wasn’t conflating sense with conjecture.

      Love the Melo trade, btw.

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