Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Saturday, September 23, 2017

Knicks Morning News (2017.09.13)

  • [NY Newsday] Charles Oakley files civil suit against Knicks owner James Dolan, Madison Square Garden
    (Tuesday, September 12, 2017 7:00:42 PM)

    Charles Oakley filed a civil lawsuit against James Dolan, Madison Square Garden and MSG Networks on Tuesday, seeking unspecified damages related to the former Knicks player’s scuffle with Garden security during a game last February.

  • [NYTimes] Sylvia Fowles, W.N.B.A. Star and Aspiring Funeral Director
    (Wednesday, September 13, 2017 3:56:51 AM)

    The defensive ace and possible M.V.P. from the Minnesota Lynx is studying mortuary science.

  • [NYTimes] Charles Oakley Files Lawsuit Against James Dolan and Madison Square Garden
    (Tuesday, September 12, 2017 10:32:35 PM)

    The suit stems from an incident last Feb. 8 in which Oakley was arrested by security guards during a game at the Garden.

  • [ESPN] Carmelo Anthony is not pleased with #NBARank spot
    (Tuesday, September 12, 2017 5:44:53 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony is not pleased with #NBARank spot

  • [NYDN] Stephon Marbury announces he’s attempting an NBA comeback
    (Tuesday, September 12, 2017 10:38:13 AM)

    A Starbury born again?

  • [NYDN] Charles Oakley sues James Dolan, MSG for kicking him out of venue
    (Tuesday, September 12, 2017 8:57:59 AM)

    Charles Oakley has filed a lawsuit against James Dolan for his alleged role in the power forward’s February arrest during a basketball game.

  • [NYPost] Kristaps Porzingis and ‘dirty’ ex-Knick face off in fiery Euro exit
    (Tuesday, September 12, 2017 3:45:39 PM)

    Kristaps Porzingis was delivered his ticket to Tarrytown on Tuesday, courtesy of a Slovenian stud who Knicks fans can only hope will make the same trek in the future. Next year’s potential No. 1 pick, Luka Doncic, scored 27 points and added nine rebounds to lift Slovenia past Porzingis’ Latvia 103-97 in the quarterfinals of…

  • [NYPost] ESPN’s ‘nonsense’ rankings made Carmelo Anthony angry
    (Tuesday, September 12, 2017 2:39:30 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony seems to have a habit of pushing his personal drama into the public eye. From taking subtle shots at Phil Jackson on Instagram to tweeting cryptic photos of his estranged wife La La, the Knicks star has shown he is not shy on social media. His latest target? ESPN. The Worldwide Leader has…

  • [NYPost] Charles Oakley says James Dolan humiliated him on live TV
    (Tuesday, September 12, 2017 7:26:05 AM)

    Charles Oakley’s public feud with Knicks owner James Dolan has hit the courts. The Knicks legend filed a federal lawsuit Tuesday claiming Dolan has “constantly disrespected” him and that his “animosity” resulted in Oakley’s televised clash with security during a February game at Madison Square Garden. The scathing suit accuses Dolan, who also owns the…

  • [SNY Knicks] Carmelo Anthony slams ESPN’s NBA rankings after he drops 33 spots
    (Tuesday, September 12, 2017 9:47:08 PM)

    Knicks star F Carmelo Anthony took to Twitter on Tuesday to criticize ESPN after he was ranked 64th in their Top 100 NBA player rankings.

  • [SNY Knicks] 40-year-old Stephon Marbury looking to make NBA comeback
    (Tuesday, September 12, 2017 2:00:29 PM)

    Former Knicks PG Stephon Marbury is eyeing a return to the NBA where he hasn’t played since the 2008-09 season.

  • [SNY Knicks] Oakley files civil suit over MSG incident
    (Tuesday, September 12, 2017 10:45:27 PM)

    Knicks legend Charles Oakley has filed a civil suit stemming from an incident involving his ejection from a Knicks game at Madison Square Garden in February.

  • [SNY Knicks] Damian Lillard admits to having hard time swaying Melo to join Blazers
    (Tuesday, September 12, 2017 10:00:08 AM)

  • 58 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.09.13)

    1. Ntilakilla

      Glad to see Melo fired up about the thing he cares about the most — his diminished brand. Maybe this low ranking will motivate him up to push for a trade out of here knowing that his brand will take more of a hit with another year in NYK.

    2. Frank

      lol for anyone (probably not many here) that think Melo will be “fired up” to disprove his NBArank, he said all the same stuff after being #15 in slam magazine last year, and that didn’t seem to help.

      Watched KP highlights from yesterday. He seems to have worked on a bunch of post moves this offseason – everything looked cleaner. A few Sikma reverse pivot jumpers, and looked comfortable shooting turnarounds off either shoulder. Also Latvia seems to do a great job getting him on the move toward the basket – hopefully Hornacek comes up with some of that stuff.

      And the arc on his jumper is really so different from last year. Wonder if that is Dirk’s influence?

    3. GoNyGoNyGo

      Where would we rank Melo? Is he top-20? Top-30? Worse? I would not have him in the 60’s but 40-50 is about where he ranks in my mind. He can score, but he’s a liability on D and a ball-hog.

      KP was awesome offensively, but he has to learn how to defend and not foul. Him sitting on the bench for so long is why Latvia lost. That and Doncic. He’s the real deal.

    4. fmikieo

      If Carmelo can remain locked-in Hoodie Melo, I would be VERY curious to see how he’d play…with this Knicks team. IMHO, he’s always had the ability to be an effective 2-way player, but not the desire. If that has changed, I’d be willing to give Hoodie Melo a chance.

    5. DS

      If Carmelo can remain locked-in Hoodie Melo, I would be VERY curious to see how he’d play…with this Knicks team. IMHO, he’s always had the ability to be an effective 2-way player, but not the desire. If that has changed, I’d be willing to give Hoodie Melo a chance.

      I can’t tell if you actually believe he’s playing better because of a hooded sweatshirt.

    6. DRed

      If you look at the various public availableadvanced metrics the only Knock who shows up in the top 60 frequently is Kyle O’Quinn

    7. Frank

      I’m really surprised they weren’t able to trade KOQ for a high second or late 1st. His trade value is definitely down now given this is his last cheap year. He’s better in almost every way than Mason Plumlee who somehow got Portland a 1st round pick AND Nurkic from Denver – AND KOQ has another cheap year and didn’t require a new contract this offseason.

      Wow that was such a bad trade.

    8. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      The flip side of the lack of a KOQ deal is that if he’s undervalued around the league we may just resign him for a below market contract in years 27/28-31/32, maybe with a team option. I’d be fine with that, if we have the money. He was the best player on our team last year and his game isn’t really predicated on athleticism or leaping ability so I think he’ll age well. He can be the third big and there’s plenty of minutes to go around.

    9. lavor postell

      @Silky

      I agree. Once you just accept that Noah’s contract is dead cap space and that it’s likely he won’t be a contributor, it makes sense to retain KOQ if he can be had relatively cheaply.

    10. thenamestsam

      Where would we rank Melo? Is he top-20? Top-30? Worse? I would not have him in the 60’s but 40-50 is about where he ranks in my mind. He can score, but he’s a liability on D and a ball-hog.

      I think the only way to argue anywhere close to top-20 or 30 is to make the claim that he’s still capable of playing at that level in the right situation or if properly motivated or with the right teammates or whatever your preferred disclaimer is. I would be extremely surprised to hear anyone try to make the case for such a ranking based on his play last year.

      Honestly, given his level last year, and expected decline given his age, I think a ranking in the 60s actually does build in some expectation that he’s capable of playing better if [insert preferred Carmelo disclaimer here]. He was an absolute train wreck on defense last year, I think we can all agree on that. If you accept that and still want to argue he’s a top-50 player I think you have to believe that he’s still at least a very good offensive player, if no longer a great one. Personally, I don’t see it. I think even building in some amount of bounceback/belief that he’s capable of giving more in a better situation, I’d rate him as basically an average NBA starter at this point.

    11. bobneptune

      Some random KP thoughts. Despite what many of you think about me here I am an admirer of KP. He just frustrates the bejesus out of me. I get that he is 22 or whatever, but some of his flaws are so fundamental I question whether certain areas of his game will ever improve significantly.

      The good news:

      His offensive game is borderline spectacular. His 3 ball looks better and he shot it extremely well in this tourney with the exception of yesterday when he forced up a few bad ones when they were behind.His repertoire closer to the basket was much more diverse and he was raining in those baby bankers with tremendous efficiency. Great!

      The bad news:

      When Vidmar went out with 3 fouls he should have gone right into the post and fouled Randolph out of the game. The Slovenian bench was dreadful and must have been collectively about minus one million for the game. He just refuses to do the logical thing.

      Defensively Vidmar and Mosgov ate him alive inside. His defensive stance is so poor he never flexes his knees and has no leverage and gets pushed everywhere.

      His rebounding is still awful and gave up a couple of unbelievably bad boards (got out fought by Luka once) and then at the end of the game when the were down by three he let another small guy out maneuver him for a crucial second chance. His fundamentals are so poor someone on the knick’s staff please get him a couple of “Red on Roundball” tapes to watch please.

      I really feel this guy is going to be the perennial little girl with the curl and tease us while never achieving the true stardom he rightfully should. His talent level is immense, but we all know what Sonny says about wasted talent in A Bronx Tale.

    12. Frank

      Yeah his rebounding is really a problem. That said, Dirk was a pretty terrible rebounder until his age 22-23 season when he got a lot stronger – after that he was basically an adequate rebounder (TRB 14-15 range) until he got old.

      Still lots of room for improvement. But if his post game is real it means he really put the work in. He could become an okay rebounder just by working on his body and technique. He’ll never be more than adequate though.

    13. Cock Jowles, #1 Tanking Denialist

      Carmelo is a~35th percentile efficiency player with ~90th percentile usage. That’s godawful. Again, for the millionth time: if you want to say he has a beautiful game, fine. Okay. He’s got “tools” and is “skilled” and all that bullshit. But he’s not top-60. He’s not top-100 anymore. He’s old and he’s not good and he’s never going to return to where he was in 2012, playing PF where he belongs with a top-3 center to cover his defensive and rebounding flaws.

      God dammit, this site needs to move on from the “Is Carmelo a star?” argument. He’s not. We have years of catastrophic roster failure to prove the point.

    14. Frank

      @17 – 2016-17 Carmelo was an average NBA player at best getting paid Lebron James money. Agreed that he was a highly negative asset last year even without all the drama.

    15. lavor postell

      Yeah his rebounding is really a problem. That said, Dirk was a pretty terrible rebounder until his age 22-23 season when he got a lot stronger – after that he was basically an adequate rebounder (TRB 14-15 range) until he got old.

      Still lots of room for improvement. But if his post game is real it means he really put the work in. He could become an okay rebounder just by working on his body and technique. He’ll never be more than adequate though.

      This

    16. d-mar

      Jowles, you live in Portland, right? How about starting a petition to bring Melo to Rose City? Get 10,000 or so signatures, raise money, put up giant posters of Carmelo in a Blazer uniform all over town. Appeal to his giant ego.

      C’mon man, we’re counting on you!

    17. stratomatic is despondent

      I’ve been complaining about KP’s rebounding for forever and a day. However, I’ve also been watching him play offense. I changed my mind. He’s way closer to being ready to be the #1 option than I thought. In fact, he’s close to being a star #1 option. I’m betting the OVER this year if it stays in the 30-31 range. I don’t think it’s going to be a nail biter to win that bet if we stay relatively healthy this year. I think we have a huge shot at making the playoffs in the decimated east.

    18. er

      @17 you are arguing with yourself. I haven’t seen anyone say he was a star.

      However sane people can’t name 60 ppl better. His usage wouldn’t be 90 percentile if he were on the rockets for example. It’s not that hard to understand. Its kinda boring at this point. I don’t understand why people talk like the guy hasn’t been here. There’s no point for debate. I wish the knicks would just cut him but of course #Knicks

    19. er

      .

      I think we have a huge shot at making the playoffs in the decimated east.

      I agree. KP is nice man. Willy and KP should be a formidable duo for years to come. I think the development of Kuz , Frank and THJR will be fun to watch.

    20. Cock Jowles, #1 Tanking Denialist

      Dirk also shot .601 TS% on 23.8 USG% in his third season. The league average then was .518, compared to .552 now. That 20% gap between him and league-average was basically like Curry shooting .650% on comparable usage last year. He could have been half the rebounder he was and still hugely productive.

    21. stratomatic is despondent

      I agree. KP is nice man. Willy and KP should be a formidable duo for years to come. I think the development of Kuz , Frank and THJR will be fun to watch.

      I have a REALLY good feeling about Frank. It’s hard to imagine him being too much of a factor scoring in his first year, but if he plays solid D and contributes efficiently on low usage now we are going to LOVE this team.

    22. JK47

      @17 you are arguing with yourself. I haven’t seen anyone say he was a star.

      However sane people can’t name 60 ppl better.

      Here are 52 players who were, without any possible question, more productive than Carmelo Anthony last year:

      I. Thomas, Crowder, Horford, Irving, L. James, Love, Thompson, Derozan, Lowry, Valanciunas, Nogueira, Wall, Beal, Porter, Milsap, Howard, Antetokounmpo, Monroe, George, Teague, Turner, Butler, Whiteside, Dragic, T. Harris, K. Walker, Steph Curry, Durant, D. Green, Iguodala, K. Thompson, Leonard, Aldridge, P. Gasol, Harden, D. Jordan, Paul, Griffin, Gobert, Hayward, Hill, Westbrook, Conley, M. Gasol, Lillard, McCollum, Jokic, Gallinari, A. Davis, Cousins, Towns, T. Chandler.

      You cannot make a case that Melo was more productive than any of those players, it is just impossible. Then there are a ton of other players who were just *somewhat* more productive than Melo, guys like Kristaps Porzingis, Ricky Rubio, Jabari Parker, Marcin Gortat, Andre Drummond and many others who were in the .100-.120 WS48 range.

      It’s quite easy and reasonable to make the case that Melo is not a top 60 player.

    23. er

      Here are 52 players who were, without any possible question, more productive than Carmelo Anthony last year

      I didn’t say who was more productive. And like I said it’s boring if you think he’s 60 good for you.

    24. er

      I have a REALLY good feeling about Frank. It’s hard to imagine him being too much of a factor scoring in his first year, but if he plays solid D and contributes efficiently on low usage now we are going to LOVE this team.

      Well here’s how I think it will play out. Frank in his first couple of years will kinda be in the Ron Harper type role in Chicago. He will defend the best pg or sg and bring the ball up over half court.

      I think he will be starting sooner than later. This is where I think Hornys offensive gameplan will come in. If he plays pick and roll heavy offense I think melo will actually be used alot on ball with KP and Willy. They have looked good running that. Also they will want to integrate Tummy into that as we’ll

    25. johnno

      “Yeah his rebounding is really a problem. That said, Dirk was a pretty terrible rebounder until his age 22-23 season when he got a lot stronger – after that he was basically an adequate rebounder (TRB 14-15 range) until he got old. ”
      TRB% in their age 20 and 21 seasons — Dirk 9.5 and 9.7; KP 14.0 and 11.8. Dirk only beat KP’s rookie TRB% 3 times in his entire career.

    26. Bruno Almeida

      33 year old Melo’s production is a 150 player at best. If he plays a 100% ideal role and is totally motivated and at his best healthy, I could see top 100. Anything more is reputation or delusion.

      It’s been funny to see the reactions to those rankings at least, the Demar DeRozan reaction to the SI rankings has been so funny to watch. Dude doesnt take the time to develop an even decent 3 point shot in a league where it’s obvious how much more valuable 3s are over long 2s and he still feels entitled to bitch about rankings when he’s not called a top 25 player just on the basis of pointzz.

    27. stratomatic is despondent

      Melo can be valuable on a team with no other good scorers because he can create his own shot and be efficient enough at it to not be a negative. He does THAT much better than most players. That’s how he values himself. But on a balanced team with a good PG, several good scorers, and a solid offense (which is many teams) he’s not a top 100 player because you won’t need him to bail out the offense very much. If he keeps his usage high on a team like that he might even become a negative because of all the bad ISO shots he likes to take. That’s the part he does not understand. If KP is really becoming the player we saw in Eurobasket and THJ’s 2nd half last year was legit, we don’t need Melo. He’d be the legit 3rd option on our team despite having some skills the other 2 don’t have and we aren’t even any good yet.

    28. Cock Jowles, #1 Tanking Denialist

      Melo can be valuable on a team with no other good scorers because he can create his own shot and be efficient enough at it to not be a negative.

      How many more years of contrary evidence do we need before we identify this argument as the patently-false bullshit that it is?

    29. ClashFan

      I’m still clinging to the faint hope that Melo can be dealt before training camp opens. It really is in the best interests of all parties involved.

      Melo needs to embrace being Olympics Melo, and Houston is not the only place where that could happen.

      Who will “blink” first, Melo or the Knicks?

    30. er

      @33 Agree with Jowles here. You don’t want a situation where Melo is the best “scorer”. Houston is the perfect situation for him especially at this point in his career. I think he could be good on a team like the Knicks if he reduces his role as well. Focusing on being the ball handler in a pick n roll with KP and being a spot up 3 point shooter with sporadic post ups.

    31. stratomatic is despondent

      How many more years of contrary evidence do we need before we identify this argument as the patently-false bullshit that it is?

      I would say ALL the evidence indicates you are in denial about this.

      I’m one of the biggest Melo critics on the forum, but in recent years when Melo was out the Knicks were horrible. Was that just an accident? It happened because the Knicks haven’t had a good #2, #3, and #4 scorer that could easily up their usage, remain as efficient, and keep the offense at the same level. The offense suffered without Melo’s only average efficiency (+/-). However, on a well balanced team with several good scorers, if Melo was out it wouldn’t mean much because those other players could easily up their usage, stay efficient and keep the team humming.

      This is the gigantic fallacy in every single advanced stats model. They try assign fixed values to both usage and efficiency. That is WRONG. The value of usage is a variable that is dependent on the makeup of the rest of the team and their ability to pick up the slack when one of the main scorers is out. It’s way more complex than any of these models can handle. That’s one of many reasons they all disagree (and fail) when it comes to usage/efficiency.

    32. stratomatic is despondent

      @33 Agree with Jowles here. You don’t want a situation where Melo is the best “scorer”.

      You are both misunderstanding badly.

      You obviously don’t want him in a situation where he’s the best scorer, but his impact is greatest when he’s on a team that stinks.

      In other words…

      On the Knicks he’s been worth let’s say 10 wins because they haven’t had much other offensive power. They needed him because they were bad.

      On the Rockets, with the same exact stats, he’d be worth 5 wins, but the team would be massively better.

      The models can not capture that difference.

    33. er

      I don’t think that’s true at all. If melo replaced ryan Anderson in the same role , Houston would be a better team. Melo is a more verstile player and would be able to attack closeouts and provide some ancillary bennies.

      I agree about the models and the correlation to usage. I have really been one of the few arguing this and I’ve grown tired of the conversation. Those models had Noguiera as more productive than melo as posted above
      L.

    34. Bruno Almeida

      @39

      And why can’t Nogueira have been a more productive player? I’m really not trying to flame you or be condescending, but I really think your issue is with the idea of production.

      The objective in a basketball court is set everytime, score more points than you opponent and you win. Advanced statistics try to assign value to actions that lead to this goal, either scoring itself or rebounds, assists, blocks etc, tries to understand how often a player does those actions and how effectively so.

      More productive means here that a player has produced more actions that lead to outscoring your opponents at the end of the game. Of course, if you put Nogueira and Melo to play 1v1 Melo would destroy his soul, nobody ever argued that. But, within the measurable stats, why it’s so impossible for you to concede that such a “lesser” player can in fact be more productive during a season?

      If I say Tyson was a more productive player than Melo and thus better, it’s because I see reason to believe more productive players are conducive to success at basketball’s set goal. That’s it, it doesnt mean Chandler could do what Melo does or vice versa.

      If you disagree with the values assigned, it’s fine, search for your own or completely ignore them. If you think what you see with your eyes is more valuable, fine, stick with it. But if you use the concept of production, then you have to understand how production is calculated in this case and then it makes total sense do Nogueira to be more productive than Melo. If you disagree with using production as a measure, then the discussion is entirely another.

    35. er

      Bruno, I definitely get it in the academic sense. Its just hard to reconcile the vast difference in roles. By that I mean. If Melo was say the 6th most important player on a team or whatever Lucas is, and he was able to come in and just have wide open catch and shoot shots from the corner three for 19mpg. What would his stats be?

      That’s what I cannot reconcile. You cant tell me that someone is better than someone else who has a completely different role and weight on a team. Its like comparing plumbers and electricians.

      I definitely understand stats and I thank this blog for opening me up more to analytical statistics. I just don’t see how two players who are not alike can be compared. Melo should only be compared to players with similar usage or at least mpg. That’s just how I see it.

    36. lavor postell

      @er

      Melo can’t attack closeouts, because he can’t get to the rim anymore and when he does he can’t get up to finish. If he “attacks” a closeout it becomes a pull up mid-range J. This is another reason why him running PnR constantly isn’t a good idea, because he’s never a threat to take it to the cup.

    37. geo

      Where do I rank Melo?
      A solid 15th.
      On the Knicks roster, that is.

      that was legit laugh out loud…maybe he can start the season with westchester :-)

    38. Cock Jowles, #1 Tanking Denialist

      I’m one of the biggest Melo critics on the forum, but in recent years when Melo was out the Knicks were horrible. Was that just an accident?

      In 2014-15, the cap was $66M. The Knicks spent $57M on Carmelo, Amar’e and Bargnani alone. Do you mean to tell me that opportunity cost doesn’t apply to that team? That they couldn’t have limped to 17 wins by spending that money elsewhere?

      I mean shit, if you take away Carmelo’s production AND the cap space from his bloated contract, the Knicks are probably no better off. But worse off by spending that $30M elsewhere? I can’t believe we’re even having this conversation. It’s dumbing down the board.

    39. Bruno Almeida

      @41

      Because that’s what production based stats do, they don’t care about the player’s role or hypotheticals. We have no idea how Melo’s stats would look if be was a 6th man because we’ve never seen it. A stat can’t possible account for something like that. It is what it is, it gives us a tool to make sense of what we see on the court.

      For the purposes of winning a basketball game, scoring points while being efficient is better every time. The conditions for that are never going to be able to translate fully to stats. It seems you’re expecting statistics to do something it can’t possibly do to take them seriously. It’s a measure of value with certain variables accounted for, you use then however you like.

      You’re the one who compared Nogueira to Melo. I actually agree that players should be compared to others based on an attempt to understand their roles, but that’s also really hard to do: how many players in the league play “Melo’s role” on a team? Is Melo’s role valuable at all? I dont see the benefit of trying to ask of advanced statistics more than they can provide.

      The top teams are always full of statistical marvels and the stars who win more are pretty much always the ones with better statistical profiles. That’s enough for me to trust them, recognizing all their issues, as much better than eye testing or reputation based opinions.

    40. dtrickey

      Off topic, but Miami just inked Josh Richardson to a 4 year $42 million contract. By my guess that is about $200 million for Waiters, Johnson, Olynyk and Richardson……….that seems really, really high.

      I think regardless of stats, we have all watched enough Knicks basketball over the last few years to see that Melo has slowly declined to a point he is outside the top 50. Hoodie Melo on the other hand is a different story……..

    41. stratomatic is despondent

      In 2014-15, the cap was $66M. The Knicks spent $57M on Carmelo, Amar’e and Bargnani alone. Do you mean to tell me that opportunity cost doesn’t apply to that team? That they couldn’t have limped to 17 wins by spending that money elsewhere?

      We are totally on the same page on this kind of thing.

      I was making a different point (badly based on the responses).

      What I am basically saying is that models tend to look at stats and assign values in a fixed way. Then they turn that into some kind of win contribution.

      When it comes to scoring (Melo’s main attribute) his value to a team in terms of wins is dependent on who else is on the team and how well they can score. The “win contribution” is a variable. If he has no scoring help, the team will stink, but without him they’d be way worse. That doesn’t mean I think he’s a very good player, a good value, or anything like that. It means that a team without much other scoring would be very dependent on Melo for the wins they did get. If he was injured, they’d lose practically every time because no one could pick up the slack.

      On a team like the Rockets, if Melo was out with a injury, CP3 and Harden could easily up their usage for a few games, and they’d hardly miss Melo’s scoring at all. Heck, they might even be better. lol

      Models don’t capture those kinds of things.

      That’s a slightly different point than ER is making, but what he is saying is also true on some level.

      If you put a gun to Melo’s head and said “If you don’t have a TS% of 60% or better this year we will shoot you”, he’d do it. He’d change his shot selection drastically, score way less, but he’d do it. Whether that would help the team or not is debatable. Again, I think it depends on his teammates. But the models would probably rate him higher and he would compare more favorably to players he is now ranked below. The models kind of miss that a player’s role matters.

    42. JK47

      That doesn’t mean I think he’s a very good player, a good value, or anything like that. It means that a team without much other scoring would be very dependent on Melo for the wins they did get. If he was injured, they’d lose practically every time because no one could pick up the slack.

      I mean, sure, this is true, but I don’t know how meaningful this is. So he’s not a player that really moves the needle on a good offensive team, but he makes a terrible offensive team better? That seems like just another way of saying “Melo is a mediocre offensive player.”

      The best kind of team for Melo to have been on was probably a team like the Iverson 76ers– a team that plays hellacious defense and then has the one high-usage, mediocre-efficiency chucker scoring all the pointzz. That’s probably the best way to optimize the talents of one-dimensional scorers like Melo, Iverson, Dominique Wilkins, etc.

    43. er

      “The best kind of team for Melo to have been on was probably a team like the Iverson 76ers– a team that plays hellacious defense and then has the one high-usage, mediocre-efficiency chucker scoring all the pointzz. ”

      That’s what he had kind of in 12……Melo was misused and wasted in NY. For all his faults we saw a blueprint for success.

      Strong pg and center play. It’s moot now
      Houston is where he needs to be

    44. Cock Jowles, #1 Tanking Denialist

      That’s what he had kind of in 12……Melo was misused and wasted in NY.

      And in Denver too, right?

    45. JK47

      We’ve been having this same boring ass argument this entire miserable decade. Holy shit is this boring.

      I’m done. I’m going to pretend M*lo isn’t on the team anymore. I’m not going to mention He Who Shall Not Be Named ever again, because I just can’t deal with the tedium anymore.

    46. Ben R

      Different players have different roles on a basketball team. It is hard to compare players across those roles. That is why comparisons of Carmelo and Tyson Chandler have always felt wrong and somehow unfair to Anthony. Carmelo’s role was much more important than Tyson’s but Tyson was exceptional at his role and Carmelo Anthony was merely above average and is now mediocre at his. Carmelo’s role is also much harder to play and the best players in the game play his role so while he resembles the superstars in the game he never really was one of them, which explains his elevated status in the media despite his less than elevated play.

      Could Carmelo excel at a smaller role in which he is exceptional doing less rather than mediocre doing more? Probably, he definitely has the talent and many players like him have changed their roles later in their career and remained very valuable. The question is will he? Can he? He certainly can’t with the Knicks and needs to move somewhere where maybe he can embrace a smaller role.

      As for ranking the top 100 players it is tough. You are comparing players across roles. To use a different sport is an an average starting quarterback better than an exceptional defensive lineman? It’s hard to say. The quarter back is probably more valuable but being merely average at such an important position probably locks your team into being average.

    47. Cock Jowles, #1 Tanking Denialist

      The Nuggets were solid in a tough Western conference.

      Quick, tell me how many times Carmelo led the Nuggets in WS between 2003 and 2010. No peeking.

    48. er

      I’m done. I’m going to pretend M*lo isn’t on the team anymore. I’m not going to mention He Who Shall Not Be Named ever again, because I just can’t deal with the tedium anymore.

      I.. …… been saying this lol

    49. johnnyhoops

      We have to all know that Melo is going to have a pretty good year to restore his brand whether he’s here or not. KP is probably going to break out. Willy should show steady improvement. THJr is solid. I also believe that Frank will contribute right away albeit with growing pains. Baker will be better. Dotson should help too. Then throw in contract year O’Quinn plus Lee, Lance, Kuz, Sessions and a little more Noah and this team could win 45 games.

    50. GoNyGoNyGo

      Melo deserves everything he gets. He’s not top-10 in our minds because he’s a stubborn, selfish, lazy player.

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