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Wednesday, November 22, 2017

Knicks Morning News (2017.08.18)

  • [NYDN] Nigel Hayes signs contract with Knicks
    (Thursday, August 17, 2017 5:38:20 PM)

    The Knicks have signed Nigel Hayes to a partially guaranteed contract, according to ESPN.

  • [SNY Knicks] GEICO SportsNite: J.R. Smith on Carmelo Anthony saga
    (Friday, August 18, 2017 1:18:29 AM)

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks sign Nigel Hayes to partially-guaranteed contract
    (Thursday, August 17, 2017 10:49:24 PM)

    Former Wisconsin forward Nigel Hayes signed a partially-guaranteed contract with the Knicks, sources told ESPN and the New York Daily News.

  • [SNY Knicks] Report: Knicks unwilling to do deal Kristaps Porzingis in potential Kyrie Irving trade
    (Thursday, August 17, 2017 10:50:35 AM)

    While Irving “very badly” wants to become a Knick, New York has so far been unwilling to trade Porzingis in a deal for Irving.

  • [SNY Knicks] Durant jokes that he’ll ‘never’ play with Knicks
    (Thursday, August 17, 2017 8:09:34 AM)

    If the Knicks were ever thinking about acquiring Golden State Warriors forward Kevin Durant, they may have to rethink their efforts.

  • [NYPost] Nigel Hayes agrees to Knicks deal after calling New York ‘dirty’
    (Thursday, August 17, 2017 6:54:07 PM)

    Apparently, Nigel Hayes will have to learn to live with it — the dirty city, that is. The former Wisconsin standout has agreed to a partially guaranteed deal with the Knicks, according to

  • 46 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.08.18)

    1. Z-man

      Could the Knicks make a deal (really two separate deals with a tacit agreement) where they agree to waive/buy out Melo so that he can sign with the Rockets for the minimum, and then the Rockets then trade Ryan Anderson and a future protected #1 pick for Noah? Or something like Kyle O’Quinn for Tariq Black and a protected #1 Pick? Would the waiver process for Melo make that impossible?

    2. Brian Cronin

      Could the Knicks make a deal (really two separate deals with a tacit agreement) where they agree to waive/buy out Melo so that he can sign with the Rockets for the minimum, and then the Rockets then trade Ryan Anderson and a future protected #1 pick for Noah? Or something like Kyle O’Quinn for Tariq Black and a protected #1 Pick? Would the waiver process for Melo make that impossible?

      The NBA doesn’t allow tacit deals. That isn’t to say that teams don’t still try them. Here, though, I think it would be too obvious.

    3. thenoblefacehumper

      I also wouldn’t take back Ryan Anderson under any circumstances. He’s an “OK” player for D’Antoni in that system, but he’s not a good player and would probably be worse for us even if we play faster and more spread out this year. 3 years of him is a disaster. I have no idea what Morey could possibly have been thinking. That’s one of the worst contracts in the NBA. It’s worse than the Noah contract. At least there’s a chance Noah will be healthier this year and give us 60 games of solid rebounding, good but not great defense, and a few laughs on the free throw line.

      Anderson was a fairly major part of a 55 win team that maintained enough flexibility to add a true superstar after the season. I don’t even know how to respond to the idea that he’s worse than Noah, who has played 1750 total minutes in the last two seasons.

      He’s objectively overpaid, sure, but if that was the only way for Morey to get him it made sense. I know I sound like a broken record, but the win curve matters! Ryan Anderson at his price is not nearly as detrimental to the Rockets as he would be to the Knicks, the same way Tim Hardaway Jr. at his price would make a lot more sense on, say, the Cavs.

      Anyway, I’d hate to have Anderson but he’s not so toxic that there’s no asset package the Rockets could put together to make him worth it. There’s at least a chance he could be traded down the line, and I doubt we’re going to be doing anything super worthwhile with cap space anytime soon anyway.

    4. Totes McGoats

      Anyway, I’d hate to have Anderson but he’s not so toxic that there’s no asset package the Rockets could put together to make him worth it. There’s at least a chance he could be traded down the line, and I doubt we’re going to be doing anything super worthwhile with cap space anytime soon anyway.

      That’s what I was trying to say yesterday. IMO, having Melo- whether he plays or not- will be a HUGE distraction on account of what has already happened between him and the franchise. Anderson? Not so much. And if Perry can find a good trade for a Lee/KOQ package, Hornacek should be able to coach a better season out of him as a 6th man PF that pushes KP to the 5 for stretches without losing a bunch of rebounding while adding scoring punch to a 2nd unit of some combination of Noah/Lance/Dotson/Kuz/Baker/Ntilikina. But I’m telling you, Perry has got to get at least Ariza and a pick or 2 back to make it worthwhile. We still save money if Melo doesn’t opt out right?

      Bottom line is, Melo can’t be on this team moving forward, almost at all costs.

    5. wetbandit

      I don’t know why but I’m kind of drawn to those KP workouts. They’re not anything I’ve seen before. The dude’s doing weird strength training, boxing, yoga, basketball exercises I’ve never seen before (one of them looked like a good rebounding-skill technique), weird awkward lunges, stretches with magical balls, and skyhooks. I’m a fan. Even though the video seems aimed to make me think this.

      Fuck Melo. Distraction or not, if we’re not getting anything of value back, he’s staying.

    6. JK47

      Melo plays huge minutes and jacks up a huge amount of shots. If he’s here, he’s the centerpiece of the offense because that is simply how he plays. He’s a chucker extraordinaire. He never had great secondary skills to begin with, but now that he’s getting old that’s really all he does: incessantly chuck the ball. Or “soak up usage” if you want to use a euphemism. He plays a shit ton of minutes and jacks up shit tons of inefficient shots.

      The Knicks need to find a way to mitigate this, and should cut his minutes. Play him 30 MPG instead of 35, right out of the gate. If he won’t stop the chuckery, which he won’t, start floating the idea of using him as a 6th man in the media. Maybe by the end of the year, actually move him into that 6th man role. Make it clear that if he does return for 2018-2019, it will be as the 6th man.

      Maybe that would get him to exercise that ETO.

    7. Cock Jowles, #1 Usage Soaker

      Could the Knicks make a deal (really two separate deals with a tacit agreement) where they agree to waive/buy out Melo so that he can sign with the Rockets for the minimum, and then the Rockets then trade Ryan Anderson and a future protected #1 pick for Noah? Or something like Kyle O’Quinn for Tariq Black and a protected #1 Pick? Would the waiver process for Melo make that impossible?

      Z-man, I thought you came around on the whole “draft picks are valuable assets” argument. You really want to have the league take away our next three drafts over Ryan Anderson?

    8. Bruno Almeida

      I really think at this point Melo has been advised to wait out the off-season and stand his ground. He’s not going to budge and he’ll keep saying he’ll only waive the NTC for Houston and that’s it, it’s the best way his camp can put pressure on the Knicks. The Rockets also know this so there’s no chance they make a better offer, seeing as they obviously see Melo as a complimentary piece and not as someone integral to the season.

      So my guess is that nothing will happen before training camp, and then it depends on Melo: is he showing up or not? I believe he shows up, talking about loving New York and only wanting a deal if it’s the ideal situation, and that’s when things get scary, because Perry’s hands will be tied: he can force a bad trade to Houston or keep Melo and have him as the focal point of the Knicks gameplan once again, both pretty bad outcomes overall. In that case, I fully agree with JK47: lower his minutes gradually and see how he reacts. This team won’t be really good either way, so that’s the best that can be done in such a bad situation.

    9. Z-man

      Z-man, I thought you came around on the whole “draft picks are valuable assets” argument. You really want to have the league take away our next three drafts over Ryan Anderson?

      Obviously if this sort of device would result in sanctions, then it’s a bad idea. And what you and Brian suggested makes perfect sense. But if we waived Melo and he wound up on the Rockets, is is certain that any subsequent deal with Houston would be subject to scrutiny/investigation? Is there a grace period? Has there ever been a case where a team waiving a player made a separate trade with the team who the player wound up with (either before or after waiving the player), without sanctions?

      If Noah regains some semblance of health, once he’s off of suspension, it could be argued that Anderson for Noah (suppose we throw in a 2nd round pick) saves Houston some money. What if this happened in November, and Melo was waived in January? Could he then sign with Houston, or would collusion be assumed?

      I mean it would never happen (just the injury risk to Melo would be a deal-breaker) but would it definitely be sanction-worthy?

    10. danvt

      Melo should be treated like any other player on the team. That’s all. We get a W and it’s all good. We get an L and something has to change. You don’t arbitrarily not play him to force his hand in trade negotiations.

    11. Cock Jowles, #1 Usage Soaker

      But if we waived Melo and he wound up on the Rockets, is is certain that any subsequent deal with Houston would be subject to scrutiny/investigation?

      The quid pro quo is so obvious, and Adam Silver is so smart, that there’s no chance it would happen without an investigation and sanctions. Rather than mortgage the next few years of roster development for being rid of Carmelo’s soon-to-expire contract, bench him or let him waive/relax his NTC. The Knicks aren’t going to lose any of the cred they already don’t have for “mistreating” a “star” player.

      The NTC is an agreement that the Knicks won’t send him somewhere without his permission, but his permission is not a requirement to trade him. He’s under contract as much as they are.

    12. knickterp

      You can’t evaluate Melo’s role on this team without looking at off-court considerations. He and the NY media have a symbiotic relationship that won’t change: he loves talking about his brand, his family, his feelings, his opinion of the offense, his handling of the Knicks’ circus atmosphere, etc. And the media loves him back: they have a steady stream of off-court intrigue stories to last throughout the season. Beat writers expressly praise his availability and openness. Any efforts by Hornacek to reduce his role/minutes or to increase his defensive intensity will result in a throng of reporters sprinting to Melo’s locker, resulting in countless stories of how this superstar has sacrificed everything for New York and it’s still not enough, etc…

      We even have evidence that Melo’s policing KP (and probably others) on what they’re allowed to say about the offense, etc. (He was livid KP praised the triangle at a certain point last season, for example.)

      And the on-court situation’s bad enough. Every first quarter centers around Melo trying to “find his groove” and usually results in 3-10 shooting or something similar. He’s not changing that, especially for a struggling team. And reporters aren’t asking him about that either. The off-court stuff’s more interesting for them. They’re the only group that should want Melo here when camp opens.

    13. johnnyhoops

      That dad Melo schtick is going to get old when the youngins realize that dad is a dysfunctional basketball player.

    14. Z-man

      THCJ, all makes sense, thanks. Yes, I do value those #1 picks dearly. And totally agree that we should wait Melo and Houston out.

    15. JK47

      I’m not talking about benching him, Marbury-ing him, I’m talking about using him in a role in which he would actually excel, which is 6th man. Play him 30 MPG instead of 34. It would actually make the most basketball sense. If that’s too damaging to his ego then he should get bent.

    16. MSA

      I’m not talking about benching him, Marbury-ing him, I’m talking about using him in a role in which he would actually excel, which is 6th man. Play him 30 MPG instead of 34. It would actually make the most basketball sense. If that’s too damaging to his ego then he should get bent.

      I agree

      I don’t think they need to make any harsh decision like benching him. Just limit his minutes to 30 and make him play with the 2nd unit. A lot.

      If he’s having a bad game, take him out of the clutch time once in a while.

      This should be enough to make him understand that 2018 will be tought for him if he’s opting in, without making a big drama in the media or locker room.

      It’s not like we are winning a lot of games next year anyway.

    17. Ntilakilla

      Teammate of the year.
      On a 31-win team.

      Like winning employee of the month on the Titanic.

      POTD.

    18. danvt

      I’m not talking about benching him, Marbury-ing him, I’m talking about using him in a role in which he would actually excel, which is 6th man. Play him 30 MPG instead of 34. It would actually make the most basketball sense. If that’s too damaging to his ego then he should get bent.

      +1
      Exactly. Just play basketball. It may devolve into a media circus, but let the coach do his job and support him. Collect high picks with grandpa Melo for a couple of years an and try not to repeat the mistakes of the past. Who knows, maybe we already have a critical mass of good young players and Melo actually is part of a low seed playoff team. Maybe he earns an extension that reflects his actual value. Probably not but let it play out in an organic way. No deal that doesn’t help us. Playing time based on effectiveness. If/ when we’re out of it, it’ll be time to play the kids.

    19. Bruno Almeida

      Melo needs to be gradually phased out of the roster. He’s 33, wants to leave and contributes little to nothing to the obviously long term approach the Knicks should be taking. That means he eventually should come off the bench and that’s it.

      Who cares if the players voted him teammate of the year? This is a basketball team, not best friends forever. Give him a reduced role and let him play whatever minutes come, and that’s it. No more basing an entire gameplan on 33 year old Melo.

    20. er

      Who cares if the players voted him teammate of the year? This is a basketball team, not best friends forever.

      Ahahahaa. This is bullshit. After all the years of hearing that Melo is a cancer. Fuck outta here

    21. plenty

      Man the mets got embarrassed by their big brothers. That stink will take a few showers to completely go away. If the bombers can take care of business against Boston this wknd I’m liking their chances at clinching a wildcard spot. Their bullpen is filthy

    22. thenoblefacehumper

      Spinning Melo winning what basically amounts to the “most well-known 2016-2017 New York Knick” award as something we should consider with regards to roster construction going forward is next level er.

    23. plenty

      Oh and as much as I hate to talk about Melo on Melo free-Fridays (yes this is now a thing) – I think any talk of reducing his minutes before he’s even played a game this season is premature. I think danvt put it well – treat him like any other player on the roster. If he isn’t pulling his weight, reduce his minutes. But I don’t think it bodes well to just bench him outright and keep him at a set minute level there regardless of how he actually plays.

      To be clear – I am for benching him/chopping his minutes severely due to performance or entitled-attitude issues and melodrama.

    24. JK47

      If you bring Melo off the bench, you can play him at PF. If he starts you have to either use him as a SF, with KP and Willy in the frontcourt, or go with him at PF and use KP at center. Both of those options are bad. Melo’s too slow to play wing anymore, and a KP/Melo frontcourt is too feeble. You need Willy’s rebounding.

    25. MSA

      I honestly think Melo is a good teammate. I never heard any issue about him as a teammate

      The first name that popped into my head is Jeremy Lin obviously. Last year, if I’m not mistaken, Chandler also said that didn’t like him either. There was also a not confirmed story about Melo threatening THJR with physical violence but I guess they are friends now.

      I think his biggest issues were always with the coaches and F.O.

    26. danvt

      https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2016/2/29/11133088/amare-stoudemire-carmelo-anthony-jeremy-lin-knicks

      Lin needs the ball in his hands and to poke and prod and use his size. His game is a lot like Mark Jackson’s was. Melo wants to dribble too. There just wasn’t enough dribblin’ for the both of them. Though Anthony is the better shooter, Lin has the better court vision. I know most around here didn’t think he was worth the poison pill offer but I wish we could have extended him more modestly during that season. HOU was the wrong place for him once Harden, another ball dominant guard, came on board.

      I know most of you think players are what they are but I think he could have had a better career if he had stayed here playing P and R with Chandler in coach D’Antoni’s system. They were great while Carmelo had a hurt groin (and ego). Carmelo definitely bears some responsibility for that mess among others.

    27. Bruno Almeida

      @26

      The New York Knicks are not a basketball team? Damn, I forgot, we’re talking about Melo, how would you not show up with comments calling everything not praising Melo bullshit.

    28. er

      Spinning Melo winning what basically amounts to the “most well-known 2016-2017 New York Knick” award as something we should consider with regards to roster construction

      I saw the list. He and Lowry were the only all stars in the east. Alot of bench players won so idk.

    29. er

      Melo Lin amare was a kindergarten lifetime ago. I’m talking about now. I think that was overblown too but whatever. This is different he’s more of a vet leader now.

      @35 What ever. I think this team will surprise this year. I like the construction and think frank will be a solid took pg.

    30. er

      Can we stick with Melo free Friday next week and for the season Please? Can we make it like Friday night Knicks with a theme song and everything? Pretty please???

    31. geo

      seeing how it’s still melo time on a melo free friday – the thing that’s most frustrating to me at this point concerning whether he stays or leaves – i don’t think it will affect our win/loss total this year…

      i understand our record has been even more abysmal the last couple of years with him out of the lineup – but, if we trade him prior to the start of the season , or, if we keep him for the year – we still win around 32 games…

    32. dtrickey

      I don’t know why but I’m kind of drawn to those KP workouts. They’re not anything I’ve seen before. The dude’s doing weird strength training, boxing, yoga, basketball exercises I’ve never seen before (one of them looked like a good rebounding-skill technique), weird awkward lunges, stretches with magical balls, and skyhooks. I’m a fan. Even though the video seems aimed to make me think this.

      I have been seeing that as well on twitter and instagram. I showed a few of the interesting looking ones to a mate of mine who is an Exercise Physiologist. Apparently the goal is with those types of exercises is to build strength and not so much size. KP getting stronger in the legs and core is 100% what he needs based on what we have seen the last 2 years.

    33. Bruno Almeida

      @40

      That’s actually great news then. If KP improves his conditioning and strength without losing much agility, that could be the next huge step in his development. Him being able to guard Centers and finish with more balance around the rim would be huge improvements already.

    34. Jack Bauer

      Melo, Melo, Melo, Melo…..
      Russia, Russia, Russia, Russia…..

      It’s all anyone is talking about

    35. kevin5318

      Someone here mentioned him using his leverage like Tim Duncan instead of putting on significant muscle. Sounds like the trainer knows what he’s doing.

    36. dtrickey

      Someone here mentioned him using his leverage like Tim Duncan instead of putting on significant muscle. Sounds like the trainer knows what he’s doing.

      That makes sense. Without being a trainer, my guess would be you don’t want to be carry a lot of weight on KP’s frame (see Yao Ming). All I am taking from it is KP strengthening core, legs and running rebounding drills = very good.

    37. Bruno Almeida

      At least we went from Big Snacks to Walking bucket, come on, it’s a big improvement in the NBA nickname department.

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