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Monday, September 25, 2017

Knicks Morning News (2017.08.17)

  • [SNY Knicks] Porzingis ‘primary target’ for Cavaliers in potential Kyrie Irving trade
    (Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:55:28 AM)

    While Irving “very badly” wants to become a Knick, New York has so far been unwilling to trade Porzingis in a deal for Irving.

  • [NYPost] Kevin Durant disses Knicks, NYC hoops while in town
    (Wednesday, August 16, 2017 3:38:03 PM)

    Kevin Durant is probably going to get booed at Madison Square Garden next season. Sure, that probably happens any time the most recent NBA Finals MVP shows up at the Garden in a visiting uniform. But Durant likely earned some extra vitriol from Knicks fans from a video posted Wednesday on his personal website and…

  • [NYPost] The Knicks aren’t taking the Kyrie Irving bait
    (Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:51:51 AM)

    An old-school NBA rule of thumb claimed never trade big for small. And the Knicks are maintaining that philosophy concerning any proposed deal of coveted young big Kristaps Porzingis for Cleveland’s Kyrie Irving. There simply does not exist any proposal in which the Knicks would deal the just-turned-22-year-old Porzingis for Irving, according to a league…

  • [NYDN] Warriors’ Kevin Durant says he’ll ‘never’ play for the Knicks
    (Wednesday, August 16, 2017 9:14:29 PM)

    Not that it was a part of the plans anymore, but the Knicks may want to scrap any ideas of recruiting Kevin Durant — now and forever.

  • [NYDN] Rasheed Wallace: Ex-Knick Zach Randolph ‘ain’t no dope dealer’
    (Wednesday, August 16, 2017 10:08:51 AM)

    Former NBA champion Rasheed Wallace says ex-teammate Zach Randolph isn’t guilty.

  • [NYDN] LeBron jets to NYC for 2 hours of hoops, then flies back to Ohio
    (Wednesday, August 16, 2017 8:11:16 AM)

    LeBron James’ passion for hoops knows no limits.

  • 53 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.08.17)

    1. Totes McGoats

      Here’s an idea..

      I say the Knicks should go outside of the box. If Sessions, Baker, and Ntilikina are gonna be our top 3 PG’s, include Randle in the Melo trade to Houston and extract every asset we can even if it means taking Anderson back. I’m sure we’d be able to flip him at the deadline to a contender because he’s gonna get touches in an environment where there’s less pressure on him as a Knick, and he should play better this season because of it. Once Randle is gone- this has to happen before camp- sign Jordan Kilganon wirh the idea of training him in Westchester, then call him up around Dec or Jan. I really wanna eee him in the dunk competition. And if he has any real game, he will be a cheap emergency PG. Cheaper than Randle.

    2. 2FOR18, understands math

      I came the closest I ever had of calling a talk show this morning. Chris Carton (I think that’s his name) called Kyrie a top 10 player and was gung ho about trading KP for him. He then heaped praise on Steve Mills as a real basketball guy for, in part, considering such a trade. This all went uncontested by anybody on the show or by any callers.
      Stuff like this, and melo being currently a top 20 player, is the conventional wisdom amongst the majority of NBA fans, so this is a very exclusive club we have here at Knickerblogger. I’m glad this blog exists to help keep me sane.

    3. mase

      Totes

      We can’t take back ryno. Not an option.
      That third year is when we need cap space to sign kp… we also need to surround him with free agents. Ryno is a deal breaker

    4. plenty

      Yeah despite some facepalm-y ones occasionally, this is a sanctuary for reasonable discourse, where at least opinions are supported by facts (MOST of the time).

      Carton’s a pissant. Keep in mind this is the same guy who not too long ago was criticizing mike & the mad dogs 30 for 30, subsequently got called out by Francesa, then started whining about how Francesa is “ruining his legacy”. His fans are likely lemmings which is why I’m not surprised to hear he got no pushback, but nevertheless that’s a pretty embarrassing and shallow stance to take.

    5. Totes McGoats

      Totes

      We can’t take back ryno. Not an option.
      That third year is when we need cap space to sign kp… we also need to surround him with free agents. Ryno is a deal breaker

      I dunno mase. I see where you’re coming from, and I agree for the most part. It’s just that if we can get Ariza + picks+ some non guaranteed salaries, I’m not sure he would be as much of a dealbreaker. His deal is huge, but even without Melo’s kicker, he still makes 6 mil or so less than Melo. Ariza and the non guaranteed salaries will still save us cap room as well. By the last year of the deal, he and TH2 will be the vets with young players- mostly drafted ones around KP, Willy, and Ntilikina. Unless KAT WANTS to be a Knick, I think that’s the best scenario we can hope for payroll wise. We’d still have plenty of room for development. It certainly isn’t a bad predicament to be in

    6. mase

      It’s a bad situation when we have to pay Noah, thjr and ryno close to $60m that third year though, and that’s the killer.
      We need to hold our ground, let melo stay and play. he opts out than we are in a better position. If he opts in we are in a better position.

      Unless we can pull off a third team to take ryno then we have we have to walk away from the deal. No if ands about it.

    7. mase

      Also ryno plays the same position as Kp, he doesn’t help us at all. He is not a wing. If almost rather have dengs contract on the cap because we could extract more assets but that puts us in cap doldrums as well… we need to cut salaries not add is my point.

    8. Brian Cronin

      Also, Ariza is never going to be included in any Melo trade. He’s the whole reason that they can even afford to add Melo to the team, as Ariza can cover for him.

    9. Bruno Almeida

      Let’s be honest, every Rockets deal is dead unless the Knicks cave in. They just have no assets and no way to put together a decent offer by themselves, so they know the only way the Knicks will accept anyhing is if they want to get rid of Melo at any cost.

      It’s a pretty shitty situation to be in, but I truly think that’s the reality.

      Seeing as Mills and Perry apparently won’t give in, it’s honestly up to Melo to decide.

    10. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      I don’t know why Perry and Mills haven’t told Melo straight up, or at least leaked to the press, that Houston doesn’t actually want Carmelo Anthony. If in discussions all they are willing to give up is Ryan Anderson and non guaranteed contracts, then we know where they stand. They view Melo as a way to dump Ryan Anderson’s salary. If he wants to leave town, he should at least go to a place where the front office values him the way we do. D’Antoni doesn’t want him and neither does Morey. CP3 may want him, but he’s only in town for the season. I think he would fit very nicely between Pau Gasol and Kawhi Leonard personally, and I’d give San Antonio with Melo a better shot of beating the Warriors than I give Houston with CP3.

    11. chrisk06811

      I’m at the point where I think we aren’t pulling off a deal w/ HOU unless we take Anderson back. I’d rather sit with what we have. it’s not worth prolonging the pain from 2 years to 3.

    12. swiftandabundant

      I really wish people on this blog would stop saying stuff like “we have to pay THJ” and making comments like that that make it sound like he’s an albatross all ready and hurting us going forward.

      Look, I get it. We overpaid for him and people don’t like the contract. But this isn’t Noah or STAT we’re talking about. This is a 25 year old good shooting guard who is about to enter the prime of his career and has gotten better every season he has been in the league. He was signed with the intention of him being the part of the core of youth we are building around. And no, you don’t have to be under 23 to be young in the NBA. THJ will be in the prime of his playing years for the duration of his contract and he has no history of major injuries to suggest he might suddenly become useless. Even if he doesn’t fully live up to his salary, unless something awful happens to him like a career ending injury, he isn’t an albatross like Noah or STAT. He also isn’t Melo with a NTC who is past his prime. He is part of our future and people on this blog need to get over it and stop saying shit like “well, we have to pay him for 4 more years but when he comes off the books we’ll free up that cap space.” Its idiotic.

    13. Cock Jowles, #1 Usage Soaker

      I really wish people on this blog would stop saying stuff like “we have to pay THJ” and making comments like that that make it sound like he’s an albatross all ready and hurting us going forward.

      And I really wish that the Knicks hadn’t paid $71M over four years to an average SG, but hey, you can’t always get what you want.

    14. Frank O.

      I know this may come across crazy…
      But I simply don’t want a point guard that believes the world is flat.
      I don’t want my kid cheering for a guy that thinks the world is flat.
      I don’t want other kids idolizing a guy that thinks the world is flat.
      Kyrie can take his skills to some anti-science state, maybe Texas. They’ll love him there.
      There the world started 6,000 years ago.
      I also think the Knicks should plan on benching Melo.
      Melo screwed the Knicks by demanding a trade, rather than waiting for the summer.
      Now Melo is trying to screw the Knicks by forcing them to make a bad deal.
      Fuck him.
      Stick his old, no-vertical leaping ass on the bench and see how long he is willing to watch his hourglass empty. Then maybe he’ll consider a few other teams.
      Meanwhile, play the young ones.

    15. Cock Jowles, #1 Usage Soaker

      After reading that article about the science teacher who can’t convince his students that the earth is round after the Kyrie comments, I’m inclined to agree.

    16. ClashFan

      @16
      All they have to do is not start Melo. Let him sit there, night after night, and NOT get his name announced as one of the starting 5.

      He’ll expand the list.

    17. JK47

      I waded into a Facebook thread debate the other day, and one of the people jumping in with hot takes was a flat earther. You should have seen the snark people were unleashing onto this guy.

    18. Jack Bauer

      Adding Ryan Anderson to the already bloated cap situation for an extra year no less makes zero sense. Hopefully Perry and Mills don’t cave on this, we’ll see.
      I have to say with the flat earth idiocy and the cost it would take to acquire him, I say pass on Kyrie as well. Being an idiot does degrade a player’s value at some point (see Smith, JR)

    19. Frank O.

      We’d then have Anderson and Noah.
      Two over-priced big men who can’t jump and who are likely to play no more than 50 games, and who can not play defense anymore (in Anderson’s case never could).
      Disaster.
      Which with this franchise makes the odds about 60/40 the Knicks knuckle.
      lol

    20. Frank O.

      Swear to God.
      Kids make players into deities.
      If Kyrie told one of his kid fans witches made the wind and dinosaurs walked the Earth with man, they’d believe it, AND buy his ridiculously priced shoes.

    21. Cock Jowles, #1 Usage Soaker

      Also, Kyrie is overrated as hell. Nice efficiency, but he’s a hero-baller.

    22. 2FOR18, understands math

      Texas, the state with NASA, is anti-science? Oh I get it, bunch of mouthbreathing rubes in all them there flyover states.

      That science teacher is another in a long line of worthless gov’t employees if he can’t explain why the world isn’t flat.

    23. Frank O.

      From the Austin-American Statesman in February:
      Texas education board approves curriculum that challenges evolution
      Texas students will continue to learn theories that challenge the scientific understanding of evolution after the State Board of Education signed off Wednesday on a preliminary version of the state’s pared-down biology curriculum.
      The board, made up of 10 Republicans and five Democrats, is in the middle of whittling down the state’s voluminous curriculum standards, starting with science. Last month, a committee of mostly school district officials appointed by board members recommended paring down the language of, or removing, four standards that require the state’s high school biology students to learn about scientific phenomena that evolution can’t readily explain.

      On Wednesday, the board voted along party lines to reinstate most of the language the committee wanted gone, requiring students to learn about the complexity of cells, the origin of life and abrupt appearance and stasis in fossil records.

    24. 2FOR18, understands math

      @25 There’s an easy solution to having to send your kids to a school with a curriculum you don’t agree with, but I’m gonna guess you’re against that solution (if I’m wrong that you’re against it, I apologize in advance).

    25. stratomatic is despondent

      You guys may be worried that Kyrie thinks the earth is flat and others think evolution is an incomplete theory, but I’m not. Truly smart kids wind up self educating themselves far beyond what they learn in school and ultimately figure out all the things their teachers were wrong about. And dimwits, well, they remain dimwits even if you try to educate them. I’m way more worried that the Washington Post seems to think violence may be the only solution to our social ills. Whatever schools educated those morons needs to be closed down fast even if they also teach that the world is sort of round and the universe is billions of years old.

      I’m sort of in the middle on Kyrie.

      I think he’s overrated by fans and pundits, but I think his ability to create and get a bucket when you really need one down the stretch in a tight game is underrated by advanced stats. I’m not sure what you want to call it or how you can measure it properly, but he’s an “impact” player for lack of a better term. He’ll win a few extra close games for you. I wouldn’t trade KP for him though (even if we added in Noah).

      I also wouldn’t take back Ryan Anderson under any circumstances. He’s an “OK” player for D’Antoni in that system, but he’s not a good player and would probably be worse for us even if we play faster and more spread out this year. 3 years of him is a disaster. I have no idea what Morey could possibly have been thinking. That’s one of the worst contracts in the NBA. It’s worse than the Noah contract. At least there’s a chance Noah will be healthier this year and give us 60 games of solid rebounding, good but not great defense, and a few laughs on the free throw line.

    26. chrisk06811

      They are not going to sit Melo unless he in some way is flat our insubordinate. like it or not, people buy tickets to see him play and $$ talks. They are not going to sit him to pressure him to drop the no trade….what team is going to give us anything of value back after that? we would have no leverage.

    27. JK47

      I wouldn’t give Melo the Marbury treatment but in all honesty, from a basketball perspective, he’s best suited to be the 6th man of this team. It would just be too smart to go with a Sessions-Lee-Hardaway-Porzingis-Hernangomez lineup with KP as the offensive focus, then bring Melo off the bench as a guy who can do some shot creation with the second unit. If he wasn’t “Carmelo Anthony, MegaMax Superstar Player,” this is probably what would happen. His cult of personality prevents this, so instead the Knicks will probably go with a less optimal lineup, with Hardaway and Melo both on the floor with the starting unit, and the non-shot creator Courtney Lee coming off the bench with the rest of the offense-starved second unit.

    28. latke

      Do you see the Bulls trading Dwyane Wade? Melo is not as declined as Wade, but he’s not a star anymore. A Ryan Anderson for Melo trade is a swap of bad contracts. Melo’s deal is arguably worse than Ryno’s but the Rockets don’t care because they are over the cap and would be effectively swapping the two, winning on talent.

      Think about it… what would Melo have gotten as an FA this past FA period… maybe 3 years, $60m? What would Anderson have gotten? Maybe 3 years, $45m? That puts Anderson’s actual salary closer to his FA value than Melo’s. The extra year of Anderson’s deal of course sucks but so does Melo’s player option… maybe though this puts Anderson in line with Melo in terms of how bad their deals are.

      So we’re swapping one bad contract for another. Which is worse for us? Anderson’s extra year makes him probably worse for the Knicks but at the same time, Anderson does not have the star cache that Melo has and so would not create the distraction that Melo would create were he still on the Knicks this season in a reduced role.

      Which brings me to the third option, waiving or buying Melo out. That’s the only other option that matters here. You have to decide… Is the extra year on Anderson’s contract worth whatever extra assets Houston is willing to throw in? How much should the Knicks be compensated to take on one year at about $21m? If Houston is willing to give up enough to make that worthwhile, you do the trade. If not, you waive or buy Melo out.

    29. english_knick

      Latke – I’m sort of with you and sort of not.

      I don’t think Melo and Anderson have equivalently bad contracts. Maybe in a vacuum. But two over-the-cap teams aren’t a vacuum. If you’re over the cap now, would you rather have 1-2 years of the better player and still be over the cap in that time, or 3 years of the lesser player and still be over the cap? Put another way – in a Melo for Anderson deal the rockets are getting the relative cap relief AND the better player.

      That said, the calculus you describe I pretty much agree with. Is whatever else you get worth the extra 1 year and $20m, plus the loss of the better player but less the loss of a negative team presence and drag on your young players development? If you see the last two bits as at least a wash then your equation is about right.

    30. geo

      i thought the whole “kyrie thinks the world is flat” was like a put on, or joke…like he was trying to make a point about “something” and simply used that as an example…

      if he really believes that – that’s hilarious…kind of sad – but, still hysterical none the less…seriously, dude needs to turn off the housewives of whatever and turn on the science channel…at least then he can learn how close we are to corralling that frisky and elusive big foot guy…or, better yet – learn how to manufacturer his own moonshine…

      like everyone else here – thank you, no thank you to have kyrie as our main man…i’d much rather ride out the KP storyline…

    31. johnnyhoops

      If we can resist temptation regarding Kyrie we can just watch our young core get better, pick up two more decent pieces via the draft, trade Melo (of course!) and then sign Kyrie as a free agent 2 years from now (if he’s still healthy), therebye completing our seasoned championship team. No need to be jumping the gun on him now.

    32. Bruno Almeida

      @32

      he really does, and apparently believes he can control dreams (not as ridiculous and obviously wrong but still.)

      and Cleveland is still hung up on asking for unreal packages for him, so my only hope is the Knicks cut off the conversations for good as of now.

    33. ptmilo

      like everyone else here – thank you, no thank you to have kyrie as our main man…i’d much rather ride out the KP storyline…

      When I was young I thought of growing old, of what my life would mean to me. Would I have followed down my chosen road, or only wished what I could be?

    34. thenamestsam

      and Cleveland is still hung up on asking for unreal packages for him

      It really only makes sense for them to trade him if they can get an unreal package. They’re not going to deal him for win-now assets when everyone and their mother knows Lebron is considering leaving after next year. If they deal him for vets and Lebron leaves they’re in a world of pain, and even if you think Kyrie is overrated (I do), there’s no way they can get enough present day value back in return to make themselves even co-favorites with the Warriors. They’re longshots next year no matter what.

      But it also doesn’t make sense to deal Kyrie for rebuilding pieces now when you’re pretty much guaranteed at least a conference finals spot next year. It completely nukes whatever chance you have to resign Lebron, and more importantly that option is just as open after next year. If the eventual option is rebuilding it just doesn’t make sense to start it when Lebron is still on your team.

      So the only way it makes sense to trade him now is if you can do something that helps this year’s team, but doesn’t hurt you at all long term either. That’s basically impossible unless you’re straight up winning the trade in every facet. So sure, if they can get Porzingis (or someone of that ilk) they would gladly do it. Makes them better this year (at least arguably even if you like Kyrie) and doesn’t hurt them in the least if they pivot to rebuilding next year. But outside of that kind of package it just doesn’t make sense to deal him now. Make the finals, lose to the warriors, see what Lebron wants to do and then decide what to do with Kyrie once all the cards are on the table.

    35. dtrickey

      I am more than happy to have Kyrie come over to my place next time he is Melbourne to have a look at the long exposure picture I have on my wall in the lounge room of the starry night sky in Tasmania. You can see how the earth rotates on the axis as the stars move across the sky around the south pole.

      It seems pretty clear that the FO has zero interest in trading KP (at least that’s what the message is outside of hot takes from the media) which is a positive. Also, I get that Kyrie wants to be top dog, but I am assuming the basis for wanting to come to NY would be to team up with KP. We trade KP and he goes back to a similar situation he was in before LBJ came to Cleveland. Either way, it is a big pass from me. Kyrie is a nice player, but we have already seen the hero ball thing before.

    36. geo

      When I was young I thought of growing old, of what my life would mean to me. Would I have followed down my chosen road, or only wished what I could be?

      well mister mister ptmilo – in that case – the wind blows hard against this mountainside, across the sea into my soul, it reaches into where i cannot hide, setting my feet upon the road…

      and, it would seem – into a horizon with no end…

      wow, bruno – that’s really weird then…then again – the world seems to be full of the absurd…

    37. Jack Bauer

      “Put another way – in a Melo for Anderson deal the rockets are getting the relative cap relief AND the better player. ”

      Right so it’s a horrible deal unless they throw in say 2 1st round picks and a promising young player from a third team and that is not going to happen. Also the idea that the Knicks would be able to “flip Anderson to another team” is kind of hard to believe. Just look how much trouble the genius Morey is having getting rid of him. The Knicks front office could never pull that off without a huge overpay to dump him and his ridiculous salary – No Thank You

    38. Bruno Almeida

      @36

      I agree it makes no sense to ask for anything less than that, and that it’s the best basketball decision Cleveland can make now. It’s just still an unreal price and every smart team should back off and ignore them. Paying top superstar price for a Kyrie Irving is how franchises get set back 5 years.

      The Knicks have signed Nigel Hayes with an unprotected contract. The kid has an insane body, might amount to something one day.

    39. KnickfaninNJ

      I look at Nigel Hayes stats and I am not convinced he will help the team unless he’s good at defense, which you can’t tell from the available stats. But he is an interesting person. He was part of the “most political locker room in college basketball”. I hope he succeeds at basketball. Read the links below:

      https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/17/sports/ncaabasketball/wisconsin-badgers-nigel-hayes.html

      https://www.theplayerstribune.com/nigel-hayes-wisconsin-basketball-graduation/

    40. DRed

      Hayes might have been a lottery pick if he came out as a sophomore but he went back to school and showed he couldn’t shoot for shit.

    41. KnickfaninNJ

      It seems like he has a good chance of playing with the team in training camp and then ending up in D league for a while.

    42. danvt

      Yeah, Melo is bad for the team. If you bench him it’s a huge distraction. If you play him, well, we’ve seen what happens. Bummer, but no to Ryno. And no buy out. Then it’s a sunk cost with no chance at redemption. I’d take Ryno if they take Noah too, but then they’re taking on the GNP of a developing nation and how do we match that up?

      Best to just let him play, try to keep him happy and hope we can develop a team concept around him. Middle of next season we can send him home like the Yanks did with Arod.

      Melo=Arod

    43. er

      If you play him, well, we’ve seen what happens.

      The last year he played without Phil was the best season of his career. And this is the best team since then. A-Rod was like 40 years old and couldn’t hit. It’s not a close comparison
      The key is to get him in the right positions, and get KP Timmy and willy in the right spots. Sessions is the key…..

    44. Cock Jowles, #1 Usage Soaker

      The last year he played without Phil was the best season of his career. And this is the best team since then.

      You gonna optimistically compare 2017-18 Melo to 2013-14 Melo? You serious, dawg?

    45. KnickfaninNJ

      I didn’t watch all of it, but I think I saw an actual hook shot early in the video. That would be a nice thing for him to have.

    46. Brian Cronin

      I don’t think Nigel Hayes is even guaranteed to make the team, right? I think it’s more of a training camp signing.

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