Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Sunday, August 20, 2017

Knicks Morning News (2017.08.10)

  • [SNY Knicks] Dwayne Wade has positive words for ‘lil bro’ Tim Hardaway Jr. after L.A. workout
    (Wednesday, August 09, 2017 12:40:46 PM)

    Chicago Bulls’ G Dwayne Wade believes Knicks G Tim Hardaway Jr. has improved tremendously, per SNY’s Taylor Rooks.

  • [SNY Knicks] Michael Beasley could be viable replacement if Melo is traded
    (Wednesday, August 09, 2017 11:00:37 AM)

    Beasley was originally selected by the Heat with the 2nd overall pick in the 2008 NBA Draft.

  • [NYPost] MSG Network to tab new Knicks’ radio play-by-play man
    (Wednesday, August 09, 2017 4:52:52 PM)

    Madison Square Garden Network is expected to announce soon that 34-year-old Ed Cohen will be named the Knicks’ radio play-by-play man, replacing Mike Crispino, who recently was let go after a long run with the network. Once it’s official, Cohen, who grew up in Westchester and has spent the last 12 years calling everything from…

  • [NYPost] Dwyane Wade kicks off the big-time Tim Hardaway hype
    (Wednesday, August 09, 2017 8:29:18 AM)

    Another young Knicks player is putting in work with one of the NBA’s all-time greats, and is apparently impressing. Last week in Los Angeles, newly acquired Knicks guard Tim Hardaway Jr. worked out with “big bro” Dwyane Wade, and the 25-year-old impressed the 35-year-old. Wade, a 12-time All-Star and three-time NBA champion,

  • [NYPost] Knicks erasing another facet of Phil Jackson’s master plan
    (Wednesday, August 09, 2017 6:39:57 AM)

    Phil Jackson’s triangle no longer will be associated with the Knicks and now, neither will West Point. The Knicks have ditched the United States Military Academy as their training-camp site, according to multiple sources, after a three-year run that was marked with controversy last October. Training at West Point was the brainchild of Jackson, who…

  • [NYDN] Knicks to host 76ers at MSG on Christmas Day: report
    (Wednesday, August 09, 2017 9:48:33 PM)

    It’s a Christmas miracle!

  • [NYDN] Amar’e Stoudemire’s ex calls on him to pay child support for baby
    (Wednesday, August 09, 2017 11:32:09 AM)

    Stoudemire has admitted he could be the father, and is ponying up more than $4,300 a month in temporary child support, a report says.

  • 138 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.08.10)

    1. er

      Great posts on the last thread by Z-man and Lavor. The thing with Melo as they said isn’t that he isn’t a good “usage soaker” type player, its that he takes 3-4 dumb shots per game that destroy his efficiency. That’s what makes him a tier below the best in the league, he doesn’t let the game come to him at times where he should.

      The Gallinari Melo comparison isn’t really a good one because they are far different players. Gallo plays for fouls, which boosts his efficiency. Melo plays for power and position. Melo is more PF and Gallo is more like a SG.

      In a hypothetical if Pop had a chance to draft Melo or Gallo, he would 100/100 choose Melo and he would have been more of a Kawhi type player. Gallo has probably maxed out his talent and is still not as good as Melo.

      Its comical that people think he is.

    2. Z-man

      Melo’s biggest problem is that he has been perceived (and paid) as an alpha dog when he should be a 2nd or 3rd option. He needs to be on a team with a Chris Paul, or LeBron James, or Jason Kidd, or even Steph Curry to be at his best. He can’t be the “brain” of a team. But he would be a HOF complementary player, as he has been on Olympic teams. Sucks for him.

    3. Sir Robin

      @4: 100% Z-man. I heard Billups say during the 2003 draft the Pistons players were begging the front office to take Melo. He feels if they had the young Melo as a 2nd or 3rd option on that team, the Pistons would have won multiple titles with Melo. Karl in Denver let Melo become the alpha and the rest is history.

    4. KnickfaninNJ

      Melo was traded for Gallinari and the team that got Gallinari got better

      The Nuggets got a lot more than Gallinari for Melo. And they weren’t much better than the Knicks after the trade either. I think the trade was bad for both teams, overall.

    5. Frank O.

      Gallinari and Melo get compared because they play the same position and were involved in a trade.
      The question has always been the relative value.
      Has Melo been $10 million a year better than Gallinari?
      Might the Knicks have gotten better overall value by holding onto the less expensive, but more efficient Gallinari and used that money to hold onto a better supporting cast?
      In short, would the Knicks as a whole played better, would the overall franchise have been healthier, had the Melo trade not been forced by Dolan?

      I maintain the position that the Knicks would have been better served by holding onto their cast of young players, rather than sending them all off for Melo. I think D’Antoni would have done wonders with that young group of guys, and it would have been fun as hell.
      Melo was a gross distortion for the franchise in basketball terms.
      From a business standpoint:
      I think the team would have been selling out games with Melo or without. But I think the team might have had more playoff seasons with the young team than it got with Melo.

    6. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      That trade happened 6 years ago. I think it’s time we let it go and start discussing the likelihood that Hardaway Jr, Beasley, KP, and Hernangomez lead us to a playoff appearance. At least that’s a relevant discussion.

    7. DS

      Melo’s biggest problem is that he has been perceived (and paid) as an alpha dog when he should be a 2nd or 3rd option. He needs to be on a team with a Chris Paul, or LeBron James, or Jason Kidd, or even Steph Curry to be at his best. He can’t be the “brain” of a team. But he would be a HOF complementary player, as he has been on Olympic teams. Sucks for him.

      99% agree but are you saying he won’t be selected to the HOF? I think he’s almost a shoe-in.

    8. stratomatic is despondent

      @er

      You are right. Gallo is not as good a player as Melo in terms of talent and skill set. However, he’s the more productive player and will add more wins to your team because he plays a much smarter game.

      If we are talking about value relative to contract, the fact that Gallo has missed a lot of time is a clear negative, but when healthy it’s not even close. I would rather have Gallo on my team at his price than Melo at his and I would’t even have to think about it.

    9. Frank O.

      I think 2017-2018 New York Knicks campaign will be pretty poor.
      Lots of placeholders.
      A Melo trade is necessary and will inform outcomes for the season.
      Will they add by subtracting that albatross?

    10. Frank O.

      In wins, Melo kicked Gallinari’s ass in the first three years, but Gallinari has kicked Melo’s ass in the past three years in WS/48.

    11. DS

      @4: 100% Z-man. I heard Billups say during the 2003 draft the Pistons players were begging the front office to take Melo. He feels if they had the young Melo as a 2nd or 3rd option on that team, the Pistons would have won multiple titles with Melo. Karl in Denver let Melo become the alpha and the rest is history.

      Would have been interesting. I imagine Larry Brown would have played him as 6th man behind Prince.

    12. Frank O.

      Melo would have pouted his way into Brown’s doghouse and Melo would have worked to undermine Brown.

    13. Brian Cronin

      99% agree but are you saying he won’t be selected to the HOF? I think he’s almost a shoe-in.

      Melo has been a lock for the Hall of Fame for years at this point. It doesn’t matter much, since the Basketball Hall of Fame is a joke, but still.

    14. Brian Cronin

      Good thing Sacramento brought in Z-Bo for all that veteran leadership.

      Let’s say that that move wasn’t by Scott Perry. ;)

    15. stratomatic is despondent

      That trade happened 6 years ago. I think it’s time we let it go and start discussing the likelihood that Hardaway Jr, Beasley, KP, and Hernangomez lead us to a playoff appearance.

      I think the Knicks have a pretty good shot at the playoffs in the decimated east if they get a solid player out of the Melo trade.

      IMO, it hinges mostly on whether KP can take on a more significant role in the offense and also up his efficiency further from last year by improving his shot selection, post game, and general shooting.

      I still have mixed feelings about Hernangomez. On the one hand I absolutely love his rebounding and his efficiency around the basket. On the other hand I think he’s a weak defender and not an ideal fit with KP. I’d way rather have KP at C eventually so we get the full benefit of his rim protection, but I can’t imagine Hernangomez playing PF effectively except for some matchups.

      IMO, Beasley is mostly irrelevant. He’ll wind up being this year’s Derrick Williams and may or may not even be better than Kuz depending on whether Kuz can improve his defense this year.

      I’m expecting Hardaway to more or less replace Melo’s scoring (at a higher efficiency, but with fewer rebounds).

      I think Frank is going to be a killer spot up 3 & D guy, but perhaps not get a lot of minutes early in the season. Long term I think he’s going to be a better version of Avery Bradley and maybe even more than that.

      Dotson will contribute.

    16. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      I don’t know about how bad our season will be. If we get the Mike Beasley from the past two short seasons and he plays significant minutes primarily as a small forward (which is the likely scenario if all of O’Quinn, Noah, KP, and Willy return in the fall), we’re basically getting Carmelo Anthony on a minimum salary deal.

      It wouldn’t surprise me at all if a rotation of Ntilikina, Hardaway Jr, Lee, Porzingis, Hernangomez, Beasley, Sessions, O’Quinn, and Baker land a bottom seed. All it would really take is for KP to improve.

    17. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      D-Will gave us a solid 1435 minutes that year and Mike Beasley is a better player than he is. That’s not exactly an insignificant piece. And Willy was shooting 3s already by the end of the season.

    18. 2FOR18, understands math

      “In a hypothetical if Pop had a chance to draft Melo or Gallo, he would 100/100 choose Melo and he would have been more of a Kawhi type player. Gallo has probably maxed out his talent and is still not as good as Melo.”

      That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve read on here. I mean, after all of the years you’ve spent reading this board, it baffles me that you could believe this. I believe you need some type of melo intervention, and I am here for you if you need help.

    19. er

      That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve read on here

      How is that ridiculous? I’m speaking as an offensive player, not defensively.

    20. stratomatic is despondent

      D-Will gave us a solid 1435 minutes that year and Mike Beasley is a better player than he is. That’s not exactly an insignificant piece. And Willy was shooting 3s already by the end of the season.

      If Beasley is our starting SF, we aren’t making the playoff this year. He’s not a good player. If we play him at PF (why we would do that I don’t know given we already have a glut of better big men), his scoring efficiency may stay higher than his long term average, but he’ll under perform in other ways more significantly. There’s a reason he keeps moving from team to team and no one offered him more than the minimum (other than China)

    21. 2FOR18, understands math

      You mentioned Kawhi in the same breath as melo. I am still reeling!

      I mean, how many different coaches does melo have to play for before we can dispense with the “if only he played in this situation he’d be different” stuff? He rebels every time he’s asked to do something else other than hold and jab step.

    22. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      So if our starting small forward gives us 20 points on a .554 eFG%/.584 TS% with 7 rebounds per 36, that’s a bad player?

    23. er

      Gallinari and Melo get compared because they play the same position and were involved in a trade.
      The question has always been the relative value.
      Has Melo been $10 million a year better than Gallinari?
      Might the Knicks have gotten better overall value by holding onto the less expensive, but more efficient Gallinari and used that money to hold onto a better supporting cast?
      In short, would the Knicks as a whole played better, would the overall franchise have been healthier, had the Melo trade not been forced by Dolan?
      I maintain the position that the Knicks would have been better served by holding onto their cast of young players, rather than sending them all off for Melo. I think D’Antoni would have done wonders with that young group of guys, and it would have been fun as hell.
      Melo was a gross distortion for the franchise in basketball terms.
      From a business standpoint:
      I think the team would have been selling out games with Melo or without. But I think the team might have had more playoff seasons with the young team than it got with Melo.

      The Knicks made the playoffs 1 time since 2001 before Melo got there. But the young team would have had more playoff seasons?

    24. er

      The Young team would have been “fun as hell” with an Albatross Amare, perpetually injured Gallo/Chandler, the awesome Landry Fields and fucking Ray Felton at PG. The revisionism/projecting with that team always amazes me.

    25. 2FOR18, understands math

      Beasley is basically the same player as melo at this point. He’ll put up the same 22/7 with zero fucks given.

    26. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Wow Randolph got fucked–initial reports indicate he was just carrying weed on his person, probably for personal use. Intent to distribute doesn’t mean anything more than “he had a lot on him” or that he had a scale to measure out his weed.

      In a just society this would be a non issue but instead we have an NBA player getting jailed for consuming an innocuous drug in his offtime

    27. er

      He may have just picked it up too. He was in the Watts Nickerson Gardens Projects…..then a riot broke out. WTF?

      #FreeZBO

    28. Bruno Almeida

      If the NBA were the AL and had a designated shooter position maybe Melo could be still a worse player than Kawhi, yeah.

    29. er

      You people have reading comp issues…I never said better. I was speaking on picking your spots a little better mostly.

    30. DRed

      According to the source, the Knicks are still hopeful Anthony eventually will expand his wish list beyond the Rockets — with the Trail Blazers, Cavaliers, Thunder and Pelicans holding interest.

      The source said the Knicks brass has told Anthony he needs to do so because they are unwilling to make a “bad trade” — and he seemed to understand the team’s position.

      Good luck with that fellas

    31. Ntilakilla

      In a hypothetical if Pop had a chance to draft Melo or Gallo, he would 100/100 choose Melo and he would have been more of a Kawhi type player. Gallo has probably maxed out his talent and is still not as good as Melo.

      Are you really such a Melo fanboy you believe the same guy who feuded with George Karl, Mike D’Antoni and Phil Jackson would get not only get along with one of the most demanding and surly coaches in all of basketball, but would have then changed his game in the model one of the most efficient scorers and versatile defenders in the game under that coach?

      I am gobsmacked by the level of delusion it takes to sincerely assume this position.

    32. Ntilakilla

      Melo would have pouted his way into Brown’s doghouse and Melo would have worked to undermine Brown.

      This. It would have been a disaster.

    33. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      LeBron is going to get Melo on the phone and make the trade happen. That is what I mean when I say LeBron will save us all.

    34. thenoblefacehumper

      “If Melo did X and Y, Z could totally happen” continues to be completely irrelevant and unverifiable. Just drop it. He’s a middling efficiency volume scorer who has mostly punted on every other aspect of the game at this point. I really don’t think we’ll be any worse off without him and we’ll be slightly less offensive to the eyes.

    35. Ntilakilla

      If only Allen Iverson had been drafted by Jerry Sloan he would have changed his game to become a John Stockton type PG!

    36. swiftandabundant

      Guys, its dumb to defend Melo at all costs at this point. His career is obviously flawed. Its also equally dumb to discount any alternate history where Melo goes to the Pistons and say that Melo would have been an iso selfish loser who would have been a cancer for that team. Give ME an F’n BREAK.

      If The Pistons had drafted Melo they would have EASILY won a few more titles and Melo would have EASILY been integrated into that championship caliber team with vets. They were champs. Melo would have worshipped all of them and would have easily accepted a 6th man role as a rookie. And the team was so good defensively, adding a scoring option like Melo would have made them a real dynasty. The Pistons won a title, were 30 seconds away from back to back titles and went to like 5 straight ECF. The addition of Melo would have made them an unstoppable force. Billups and Melo in Denver got to the WCF and this was with a declining Billups and some decent supporting staff but not the Pistons squad.

      To just blankly state that it would have failed bc Melo is some horrible loser is just a really dumb position to take.

    37. Donnie Walsh

      Fun to see the Pelicans on that “expanded” list. They’re the only team with worse contracts to deal than the Blazers and Rockets. (#Asikorbust)

    38. the don nelson era

      What don’t you people understand? I’m with er on this one. Melo is the shit. If you put a little on him, he goes into the post. If you put a big on him, he goes around him. Plus, the jabstep. I don’t care what the numbers say, Melo gets 22 ppg no problem.

    39. ClashFan

      @47
      Yes, but I think that they do have all their first rounders going forward, and those might just be good ones. So, they could include 2018 and 2020 picks, if so inclined.

      But, you’re probably going to have to take a couple of big three year deals back.

    40. Bruno Almeida

      CBS reported today that Melo won’t waive the clause for the Pelicans. It’s obviously a good decision for him, but terrible for the Knicks, as usual. I dont really care about the players coming back, but the Pelicans picks are by far the best possible asset that’s been rumored. Id easily take Asik + Moore and Ajinca or Hill.

    41. Z

      The Nuggets got a lot more than Gallinari for Melo. And they weren’t much better than the Knicks after the trade either. I think the trade was bad for both teams, overall.

      It’s pretty easy to look at wins and see which team was better.

      Post trade 2011:
      Nicks: 14-14 (.500)
      Knuggets: 18-7 (.720)

      And Denver won more games than the Knicks over the next two seasons too (which were also the Knicks’ only two “good” years of the Melo era).

      The fact that the Nuggets went for .720, .580, and .695 in the 200 games immediately following the exodus of their supposed franchise player really puts that trade into perspective.

      If The Pistons had drafted Melo they would have EASILY won a few more titles and Melo would have EASILY been integrated into that championship caliber team with vets.

      I don’t know about “easily”. Melo (like LeBron, Durant, etc…) wasn’t very good his first two seasons. He made a leap in his third year, but by that point the Pistons would have been looking at a Spurs dynasty, the Celtics Big Three, and a rebuilt Laker team.

      I think I’d put my money on Detroit not winner another title with or without Anthony. The main difference is that Gallinari/Chandler/Mozgov would have been Pistons instead of Nuggets in that sliding-door scenario.

    42. er

      The fact that the Nuggets went for .720, .580, and .695 in the 200 games immediately following the exodus of their supposed franchise player really puts that trade into perspective

      No it doesn’t because it wasn’t a linear move. The nuggets had a full roster and the Knknics didn’t
      The fact that they came into the next season with Tony Douglas says it all. The Knicks didn’t become a whole team until 2012

    43. swiftandabundant

      So Carmelo Anthony would have made NO difference at all to a team that was 30 seconds away from a second title in Melo’s rookie year and then got shafted in the ECF against Cleveland and Miami (both went to 7 games). Then went to 6 against the Celtics when they won it all. So Melo makes NO difference on those teams at all even though the one thing they lacked was additional scoring?

      I can’t even with this shit.

    44. er

      Are you really such a Melo fanboy you believe the same guy who feuded with George Karl, Mike D’Antoni and Phil Jackson would get not only get along with one of the most demanding and surly coaches in all of basketball, but would have then changed his game in the model one of the most efficient scorers and versatile defenders in the game under that coach?

      Because pop is surly = tough to get along with? POP. Is beloved by his players. And Melo would have been a rookie not a vet, so he would have had no choice. Habits are formed, and pop is the greatest molder of talent in NBA hustory. How many Karl and Dantoni players hate them????

      Also moron I said shot selection wise not defensively.

    45. swiftandabundant

      Also, to say that a rookie of LeBron or Melo’s caliber isn’t very good is one of the reasons why I can’t always trust stats. Statistically they may not be “good” but if you look at both Cleveland and Denver after they drafted those players, the team improved significantly (esp Melo’s denver’s teams).

    46. swiftandabundant

      Also, one thing the alternate Melo not getting traded to the Knicks world ignores is that while the Dantoni team had some young pieces (Gallo, Chandler, Mosgov, Fields)…that team was largely a 500 team mainly because of STOUDEMIRE (and Felton). So in the world where the Knicks DON’T trade for Melo and keep that team, they gain cap flexibility and keep some draft picks, but they also don’t get Melo who basically offset STAT’s decline. So unless you believe in this alternate world that STAT DOESN’T get injured and basically be a waster the rest of his contract, then you can’t say the Knicks would have been better without Melo.

    47. danvt

      We got slaughtered in the Melo deal pure and simple. It was predicated on Melo and Amar’e forming a dynamic duo but even when Stat was healthy they were redundant.

      Then we kept throwing good money after bad. The only decent player we brought in to compliment Anthony was Tyson Chandler but it still wasn’t enough for sustainable power.

      Look at KG giving up 7 million for Iggy and Shaun. LBJ left money on the table for the Heat as well. It’s not impossible. Melo is a very talented player. Would he have been a great Piston? Sure. His problem is that he never saw the big picture and thought he could win with Sheldon Williams. He could have come as an FA but no he had to have every cent.

    48. ClashFan

      Looks like the same guys “defending” Frank in that video are the ones defending Justin Beiber in his videos!
      :-)

      Just kidding, of course.

    49. danvt

      Re: Gallo vs Melo

      We could have had them both. And Chandler, Mozgov, Fat Ray, picks, etc.

      This has been told ad infinitum.

      The blame goes to NYK and Carmelo.

      Is Carmelo an awesome basketball player. I think so. I think his efficiency issues stem from him not ever being on an excellent team. As a max player and a team captain is he responsible for those issues? I would say yes to a great extent. No he’s not the GM but his tunnel vision and self involvement has hurt him as a player and as a teammate.

    50. Donnie Walsh

      So Melo makes NO difference on those teams at all even though the one thing they lacked was additional scoring?

      Replacing 24 year old Tayshaun Prince’s 3000 minutes with 20 year old Carmelo Anthony’s minute would have come at a high expense. Simply adding Carmelo Anthony’s high volume, low efficiency scoring ability to an equation doesn’t keep everything else equal. To say that the Pistons would have scored in the final minutes against the Celtics assumes that they would have been in that game at all.

      Scoring alone doesn’t win championships. The Pistons are actually one of the better examples of this this.

      It’s almost as if you’ve learned nothing from watching the Knicks over the past 15 years.

    51. thenoblefacehumper

      No it doesn’t because it wasn’t a linear move. The nuggets had a full roster and the Knknics didn’t
      The fact that they came into the next season with Tony Douglas says it all. The Knicks didn’t become a whole team until 2012

      Yeah, that’s kind of proof that it was unwise to trade four rotation players and three draft picks for Carmelo Anthony and half a season of Chauncey Billups.

    52. Z

      So Carmelo Anthony would have made NO difference at all to a team that was 30 seconds away from a second title in Melo’s rookie year and then got shafted in the ECF against Cleveland and Miami (both went to 7 games). Then went to 6 against the Celtics when they won it all. So Melo makes NO difference on those teams at all even though the one thing they lacked was additional scoring?

      I can’t even with this shit.

      How does “I don’t know about ‘easily'” get read as “NO difference”? (sorry to get you so angry over that, btw).

      No it doesn’t because it wasn’t a linear move.

      Huh?

      That trade was an event, and there was a post-event metric that both teams were playing for: wins. Whether the Knicks made that move with an eye for 2012 or not (not), that doesn’t invalidate what the Nuggets were able to do in the 25 games immediately following the trade as well as the 200 game sample size over the next few seasons.

      In 2011 there was a lot of chatter of people warning that the Knicks were going to be worse with Anthony if they traded for him. But there was nobody that said that the Nuggets would vastly improve the day he left and sustain that for 200 games. Everybody in Denver thought they were hitting a re-set button. Instead, they played good team basketball and won lots of games. It wasn’t a coincidence that it came with the departure of Melo and his drama.

    53. lavor postell

      I would bet money that if I logged on to KB in the year 2030 for a week straight, at some point there’d be an exchange re-litigating the Carmelo trade.

      Never change <3

    54. Bruno Almeida

      A superstar in his prime gets traded and people are debating to date whether his former team got better or the team he went to got better, and there’s good indications that the team that traded him actually got the better deal.

      Name me one situation where that happened other than the Melo trade and I’ll be happy to admit he would have been Kawhi Leonard had he got traded to the Spurs.

    55. Z

      In their first full season after the trade the Nuggets won 57 games. They most games they ever won with Carmelo Anthony was 54.

      If that doesn’t tell you something, you’re probably not listening to it.

    56. er

      In their first full season after the trade the Nuggets won 57 games. They most games they ever won with Carmelo Anthony was 54.
      If that doesn’t tell you something, you’re probably not listening to it.

      LOL K.

      I guess it doesn’t matter about the competition or any other variable. Stupid post.

    57. kevin5318

      Has Denver reached the Conference finals since Melo left?

      This whole debate started about Melo vs. Gallo. You’d be dead wrong if you think any NBA team would rather build a team around Danillo than Melo.

    58. TheOakmanCometh

      Melo was a #1.5 player most of his career. Too good to be the second-banana on most teams, but not good enough to elevate a mediocre team by himself.

      Today he’s a #2.5. He’d be a great third optionon Houston or Cleveland. He’d be an OK second option on San Antonio or Washington. He’s a crappy first option on the Knicks, which is why we suck.

    59. er

      That trade was an event, and there was a post-event metric that both teams were playing for: wins. Whether the Knicks made that move with an eye for 2012 or not (not), that doesn’t invalidate what the Nuggets were able to do in the 25 games immediately following the trade as well as the 200 game sample size over the next few seasons.

      The Knicks made a terrible trade. That is why it wasn’t a linear move.

    60. er

      A superstar in his prime gets traded and people are debating to date whether his former team got better or the team he went to got better, and there’s good indications that the team that traded him actually got the better deal.
      Name me one situation where that happened other than the Melo trade and I’ll be happy to admit he would have been Kawhi Leonard had he got traded to the Spurs.

      See the above post

    61. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      @75

      is he playing somewhere or is it just a clip or something?

    62. Donnie Walsh

      I guess it doesn’t matter about the competition or any other variable. Stupid post.

      It’s not like the west fell of a cliff with the loss of Melo to the eastern conference.

      You can keep grasping to explain why you are right, but you almost never are, so I’m not sure why you would call other people’s posts stupid. You’re the guy (the only guy) in that Harden trade archive thread that was posted last week arguing that OKC won the Harden trade. Glass houses, man.

    63. Totes McGoats

      Zach Randolph and Michael Beasley. Hmmmn I see a pattern here

      Maybe Perry likes to toke up too ;-)

    64. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      @79

      Frank’s shot is silky smooth and the mechanics are great–but the release is a mite slow.

      He also looks like he has a second gear/some more explosiveness than I had seen before–he does a dunk off one foot w decent explosion late in that clip. The length probably helps a lot. I’m excited about him.

      So many dumb posts on that twitter video calling Frank slow…it’s a workout, people, jeez

    65. Bruno Almeida

      @82

      yeah, I think his shot is fine for the NBA now but he could get better in thst sense. Him working on subtle hesitation, spin moves and such and finishing with even left handed floaters is a good sign, if he has a full arsenal of layups, floaters, short jumpers and such he’ll be able to score against more athletic players, and his jumper looks to be guaranteed to transition well to the NBA.

      Of course there’s already people saying that he looked slow in the tweet commentaries and a bust, so yeah.

    66. 2FOR18, understands math

      I’m so excited to see Frank play that I just looked up when the first preseason game is – Oct 3 vs the Nets.
      By then I expect the Yankees to have made the playoffs and the Giants to be terrorizing the NFL on both sides of the ball.

    67. Totes McGoats

      Why are folks arguing over whether Pop would draft Melo over Gallinari? The answer’s clear! ER is 200% right in saying Pop would draft Melo over Gallinari. It’s not even a debate! You gotta remember, Pop wouldn’t be drafting the 2017 versions of either player. Every GM would have drafted 19 y/o Melo over 19 y/o Gallinari. Cmon..that debate is just ridiculous, and I would love to have Gallinari instead of Melo right now.

    68. Frank O.

      ER,
      Knicks were two games over .500 before the Melo trade in 2010 and finished two games over .500.
      I know you’re a Melo fan. I get it. But I am mystified by your undying support for the guy.
      The Knicks had a nice dynamic with the young guys. They exchanged Wilson Chandler, Raymond Felton, Danilo Gallinari, Timofey Mozgov, a 2014 first-round pick and the swap rights in 2016.
      If they had stayed put, Melo was going to the Knicks in the offseason AND that Knicks would have still had their 2014 1st rounder later. This was by all measure one of the stupidest trades in franchise history, and that is saying a lot. They mortgaged the future to get a guy they would have gotten in the off season.

      The Melo trade also lost the Knicks D’Antoni because he got run out by Melo. I don’t know if you noticed, but D’Antoni’s system seems to be working okay. It certainly was working okay for a bunch of kids and Amare. They were two games over .500 at the trade deadline in 2010 with mostly a bunch of kids.

      Melo is a very good shooter. He’s been pretty average for about three years now, tho.
      I love his shot. He has virtually not hops and hasn’t had it for a few years. Last year, he mailed in the season. He’ll never be the centerpiece of a championship team. If he gets a ring, it’ll be as a role player.
      I wish him well and wish him gone.

      Denver got the better deal and were better than the Knicks after the trade. They got worse when other trades happened. But after the Knicks deal, they simply were better off.

    69. er

      It’s not like the west fell of a cliff with the loss of Melo to the eastern conference.
      You can keep grasping to explain why you are right, but you almost never are, so I’m not sure why you would call other people’s posts stupid. You’re the guy (the only guy) in that Harden trade archive thread that was posted last week arguing that OKC won the Harden trade. Glass houses, man.

      The west wasn’t as good in those years. The Lakers were declining, the only good teams were the Spurs and the Thunder then the teams were just ok. I was referring to the 2 years earlier when the 8 seed had 50 wins.

    70. er

      @89 your post isn’t in disagreement with anything ive said, except that I think Dantoni is a bad coach.

    71. Cock Jowles, #1 Usage Soaker

      http://knickerblogger.net/knicks-morning-news-saturday-oct-27-2012/

      Juany8:

      Kevin Martin is perfectly capable of replicating Harden’s efficiency, if not his playmaking. He’s also a more consistent 3 point shooter, and I can’t be the only person who remembers Harden missing wide open 3’s in the Finals.

      James Harden is not a superstar.

      er:

      i think the thunder won this deal getting lamb, martin and a bunch of picks

      BigBlueAL:

      Could this actually be considered a lose-lose trade??

    72. er

      You can keep grasping to explain why you are right, but you almost never are, so I’m not sure why you would call other people’s posts stupid. You’re the guy (the only guy) in that Harden trade archive thread that was posted last week arguing that OKC won the Harden trade. Glass houses, man.

      What the fuck does the Harden discussion have to do with anything? I was wrong. So what???? I thought Lamb would be a player. If they got a good Lamb (ie Roberson with an offense) and Adams it would have been an even trade even with MVP Harden.

    73. plenty

      Er, you’re fighting a war on too many fronts. You are strung out on too many arguments like Marbury was strung out on fake weed.

      But seriously, I think it’s tough to put up detailed synopsis of ones argument when you are more machine gun than a-bomb, you know? It’s just tough objectively to get your points at times because for example you say “I agree with you 100% but I think dantoni is a poor coach”. The discussion was never about dantoni, it’s confusing to bring it up, especially when you don’t justify it with any explanation or reasoned facts.

      Btw, I wouldn’t be so quick to say that Pops wouldn’t choose gallinari. Pops Likey his Europeans.

    74. Cock Jowles, #1 Usage Soaker

      If you’ve ever said things like “Bargnani is good at basketball” or “Harden will never be a star player,” you’re probably wrong about other things regarding basketball. Regarding Carmelo, er, you are very wrong.

    75. Bruno Almeida

      Pop might have selected Melo over Gallinari, by why does that mean it’s the right choice?

      At any point in Melo’s career with the Knicks I would have traded him for Gallinari straight up.

      The trade was shit, Melo is not a superstar, this is obvious and has been rehashed a million times already. It’s honestly becoming nothing more than a personal discussion where nobody actually discussed anything, just looks to “win” the argument.

    76. er

      If you’ve ever said things like “Bargnani is good at basketball” or “Harden will never be a star player,” you’re probably wrong about other things regarding basketball. Regarding Carmelo, er, you are very wrong.

      I NEVER SAID THAT.

    77. er

      At any point in Melo’s career with the Knicks I would have traded him for Gallinari straight up.

      K.

    78. er

      Er, you’re fighting a war on too many fronts. You are strung out on too many arguments like Marbury was strung out on fake weed.
      But seriously, I think it’s tough to put up detailed synopsis of ones argument when you are more machine gun than a-bomb, you know? It’s just tough objectively to get your points at times because for example you say “I agree with you 100% but I think dantoni is a poor coach”. The discussion was never about dantoni, it’s confusing to bring it up, especially when you don’t justify it with any explanation or reasoned facts.
      Btw, I wouldn’t be so quick to say that Pops would choose gallinari. Pops Likey his Europeans.

      I don’t know whats hard to understand, I agreed with everything except that the team would have been ok because of Dantoni because I think hes a gimmick coach who cannot adjust and is fairly stubborn.

      The Gallo stuff is just so funny to me….how many sub 42% shooting seasons does the guy have?

    79. Bruno Almeida

      @102

      See, this sort of shit is why people won’t respect your opinion. You cherry pick FG%, an obviously obsolete stat, just because it’s the one shooting stat where Melo has an advantage over Gallinari. Please, stop.

    80. stratomatic is despondent

      So if our starting small forward gives us 20 points on a .554 eFG%/.584 TS% with 7 rebounds per 36, that’s a bad player?

      He’s not a good defender.

      He turns the ball over trying to do too much.

      He has terrible court vision and doesn’t get any assists.

      His efficiency was probably helped by playing more PF the last couple of years where he could use his speed along the baseline to get past slower big men. At SF, he may not sustain that efficiency.

      He gets injured a lot.

      He’s had issues with maturity and pot smoking.

      He’s not on our timetable.

      I’m still looking for the upside of this besides he can score and came cheap.

    81. kevin5318

      I don’t think any upside to the move unless we can flip him to a contender at the deadline.

    82. er

      See, this sort of shit is why people won’t respect your opinion. You cherry pick FG%, an obviously obsolete stat, just because it’s the one shooting stat where Melo has an advantage over Gallinari. Please, stop.

      FG% over a career is a cherry picked stat? Are rebounds/36 and assists/36 too? Gallo is a great FT shooter and is elite at drawing fouls is that good to mention?

      Tell me whats acceptable sensei.

    83. thenoblefacehumper

      The Gallo stuff is just so funny to me….how many sub 42% shooting seasons does the guy have?

      How many 58%+ TS seasons does Melo have?

      I’m still looking for the upside of this besides he can score and came cheap.

      The point of the move was to get a decent basketball player at the league minimum salary. I agree that ideally our moves should be more forward thinking than that, but also you defend the $48 million for 31 year old Courtney Lee move a lot, so some perspective is in order.

    84. the don nelson era

      it’s flimsy to hold out as definitive Melo’s career 45 fg% to Danilo’s career 42 fg% while ignoring Gallo’s 21-point advantage in career eFG% and his 38-point advantage in career TS%.

      In baseball, you’d be saying that the guy who hits .300/.330/.500 is better than a guy who hits .280/.380/.500 because of the batting average.

    85. Bruno Almeida

      @109

      Exactly. ts% and efg% are available. There’s no reason at all to use fg% in a reasonable argument unless you only care about proving your point instead of having a discussion. It’s just stupid and stuff like this will make people dismiss your comments no more how loud you try to scream. I’m not anyone’s sensei or whatever snarky shit you try to pull off for the sake of cheap irony.

    86. Totes McGoats

      RE: Ntilikina workout clip

      I like the fact that he uses left on pull up J’s and floaters as well. I think his handle doesn’t look as crisp as we’d like because he’s so long. He’s not explosive at all so he’ll have to be crafty and use his length and size advantage at PG on offense. He’s not slow, he has some suddenness to his moves so his lack of elite athleticism shouldn’t hold him back too much. His J reminds me of H20’s jumper a little, so if he can speed that release up a bit he’ll be excellent off the ball when needed. I can’t wait to see him against NBA defenses.

    87. MSA

      The “Pop would chose Melo over Gallo in the draft” question is not so straightforward as it seems.

      Melo came in the league as a top-3 prospect while Gallo wasn’t even in the top-10 in most mock drafts.

      It’s quite possible that Pop would chose Melo 9 out of 10 times for this simple fact. HOWEVER, it’s entirely possible that Gallo would have being much more productive under Pop than Melo. He seems like a much more “system player” than Melo ever was.

      Melo has been the same player for most of his career. I just don’t belive the “Melo would be better as the 2nd banana” mantra anymore and If you need Lebron or Chris Paul to be a better player, well… welcome aboard. I would be a much better player with them on my team too.

    88. 2FOR18, understands math

      This is from Dred in that Harden trade thread. Maybe he really should be GM:

      “Is that pile of crap really the best the Thunder could get? Headscratcher of a deal.”

    89. er

      Melo has been the same player for most of his career

      This is actually my point. He would have been better with pop n Duncan

    90. MSA

      This is actually my point. He would have been better with pop n Duncan

      That’s exactly the point which I don’t agree.

      Melo would have been Melo with the Spurs. Maybe a bit better overall but it wouldn’t magically transform his game.

      The Spurs don’t fix players. They pick (trade/sign) who they think is good and then get rid as soon as they realize it didn’t work. They didn’t “fix” Aldridge, Stephen Jackson or Richard Jefferson.

    91. Ntilakilla

      Because pop is surly = tough to get along with? POP. Is beloved by his players. And Melo would have been a rookie not a vet, so he would have had no choice. Habits are formed, and pop is the greatest molder of talent in NBA hustory. How many Karl and Dantoni players hate them????

      Steve Nash and Amar’e loved D’Anonti. And D’Antoni loves James Harden, an offensive oriented player with a rep for high usage and dogging it on defense.

      But now let’s turn your question around. How many of Melo’s NBA head coaches like him? He’s had five (Karl, D’Antoni, Woodson, Fisher, Hornacek) and a POBO in Phil Jackson who was a de facto head coach. We know the three greatest of that group in Karl, D’Antoni, and Phil hate his prima donna guts. That leaves Woodson (deferred to him completely), Fisher who seemed neutral with the guy, and Horny (who looked fed up with his antics too).

      I am sure a surly control freak like Popovich would get along great with Melo. Yep, you’re a delusional fan boy.

    92. MSA

      Yes a drafted player would have to “transform”

      Makes sense……..

      To Melo become the superstar you think he is, yes.

      I’m glad you are starting to catch how things work.

    93. kevin5318

      Hate’s a very strong word. Karl and D’antoni were very critical of his play but never seemed like they hated him. D’antoni even said he wouldn’t mind coaching him again. Hornaceck hating him is a hard reach.

      Not to mention that Boheim loves him and guys like coach K, Thibs and Pop sung his praises while on the olympic team. If you want to bring up Phil then Jason Kidd was very praiseworthy of him during his time here.

    94. JK47

      Enough with the Melo apologia already. He coulda shoulda woulda done this and that and if he had the right teammates and the right coach and blah blah blah. Melo is what he is: this generation’s answer to Dominique Wilkins, except not quite as good as ‘Nique. It’s almost uncanny how similar they are: high usage scorer, middling efficiency, mediocre secondary skills.

    95. DS

      Enough with the Melo apologia already. He coulda shoulda woulda done this and that and if he had the right teammates and the right coach and blah blah blah. Melo is what he is: this generation’s answer to Dominique Wilkins, except not quite as good as ‘Nique. It’s almost uncanny how similar they are: high usage scorer, middling efficiency, mediocre secondary skills.

      Oh snap! He just said you’re a little bit worse than Hall-of-Famer, Dominique Wilkins!

      Kidding, your point is well-taken.

    96. kevin5318

      Melo is what he is: this generation’s answer to Dominique Wilkins, except not quite as good as ‘Nique. It’s almost uncanny how similar they are: high usage scorer, middling efficiency, mediocre secondary skills.

      I agree with you. I only defend Melo because some people here blame him for everything wrong with the team for the past 7 years.

    97. er

      I agree with the dred points.

      RAS you are a Moron. And i want to say much worse. I dont have the energy for u. You are a dedicated troll.

    98. Ntilakilla

      RAS you are a Moron. And i want to say much worse. I dont have the energy for u. You are a dedicated troll.

      Another substantive defense from er who is entering farther into reub territory by the post.

    99. Cock Jowles, #1 Usage Soaker

      I accept you for being a blind — literally blind — Knicks fan, er. I accept you for who you are.

    100. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      Let’s talk about the Knicks and Rockets trade. There’s no way it gets done without a 3rd team, and even then there won’t be enough assets to pay the Knicks for Melo and the 3rd team for taking the Anderson contract. The only way Melo ends up in Houston is if we could get involved with Phoenix and Cleveland where Phoenix takes Anderson and Irving. Melo to Cleveland doesn’t happen because Melo ain’t about to come off anybody’s bench and there’s no way Cleveland trades Love and Irving this off season.

      That brings me to my conclusion that Melo doesn’t end up in either city despite being his one and two teams. OKC is an interesting fit for a season or two, though. Westbrook, Roberson, PG, Melo, and Steve Adams would be an excellent starting 5. I don’t think we want Kanter back, but it’s possible a 3rd team like Sacramento, Atlanta, or Brooklyn would take Kanter given his age and production to date.

    101. Ntilakilla

      Karl and D’antoni were very critical of his play but never seemed like they hated him. D’antoni even said he wouldn’t mind coaching him again.

      Karl called Melo a “user of people” and wrote in print that his trade to the Knicks “a sweet release for the coach and the team, like popping a blister.’’ D’Antoni quit his dream job in NY over Melo, not mention the only reason he’s willing to work with the guy is because Harden, Paul (who they want to resign) and Nene all are lobbying for it.

      Hornaceck hating him is a hard reach.

      Read again. I said he was fed up with Melo’s antics, which the video shows.

      Not to mention that Boheim loves him and guys like coach K, Thibs and Pop sung his praises while on the olympic team.

      Of course Boheim loves him, he was a one and done college player who shut up and won him a championship to jump to the NBA. Sorry, I will take the advice of coaches who actually worked with him more than one college season.

      If you want to bring up Phil then Jason Kidd was very praiseworthy of him during his time here.

      Jason Kidd said what any teammate would say about the team star. You’re not really convincing here.

    102. DRed

      Remember when George said Dikemebe was washed and irrelevant in 2001? And then to cap a beastly series Dikembe had 23/19 and 7 blocks in game 7 to send the Bucks home? There’s a reason his former players hate Karl-he’s a drunk and an asshole. He badmouths everyone

    103. Jack Bauer

      God I hope they trade Melo soon so we don’t have to wade through 130 posts of Melo vs. Gallo, Melo trade from Denver rehash, and other hypotheticals regarding him and his play on this blog any more.

    104. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Eurobasket needs to hurry up because im slowly dying without basketball in my life and with endless relitigatings of Melos career in it

      also apparently we face OKC on October 19th in the NBA season opener

      Franks gonna go up against Russ at some point that’s fucking rough

    105. er

      God I hope they trade Melo soon so we don’t have to wade through 130 posts of Melo vs. Gallo, Melo trade from Denver rehash, and other hypotheticals regarding him and his play on this blog any more.

      I feel like this. Yet I respond to the posts when I’m bored. I’m sorry. Seriously

    106. er

      I accept you for being a blind — literally blind — Knicks fan, er. I accept you for who you are.

      Haha thanks …i think. But nah seriously I’m not blind, just annoyed. Too optimistic, definitely but I see the fuckery for sure.

    107. bobneptune

      Franks gonna go up against Russ at some point that’s fucking rough

      Yeah…. Westbrook doesn’t know what he’s up against :-)

      I guess there is nothing like a trial by fire to concentrate the mind……

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