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Wednesday, November 22, 2017

Knicks Morning News (2017.08.08)

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks announce Baker’s signing
    (Monday, August 07, 2017 7:13:50 PM)

    The New York Knicks announced they re-signed guard Ron Baker on Monday.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks hire Barack Obama’s brother-in-law to front office position
    (Monday, August 07, 2017 4:15:40 PM)

    Robinson is the brother of former first lady Michelle Obama.

  • [SNY Knicks] DeMarcus Cousins appears to want Melo in New Orleans
    (Monday, August 07, 2017 11:49:11 AM)

    With plenty of interest from different teams in Carmelo Anthony, New Orleans Pelicans center/forward DeMarcus Cousins has joined the group of those who want the All-Star forward.

  • [SNY Knicks] Charles Oakley won’t mind being away from Garden
    (Monday, August 07, 2017 9:35:25 AM)

    At least outwardly, former Knick Charles Oakley is alright with not being able to attend Knicks games at Madison Square Garden this season.

  • [ESPN] Sources: Knicks hiring Obama in-law Robinson
    (Monday, August 07, 2017 12:52:28 PM)

    Sources: Knicks hiring Obama in-law Robinson

  • [NYPost] Stephon Marbury’s affordable sneaker line is back
    (Monday, August 07, 2017 7:04:07 PM)

    The $14.98 Starbury will soon return to US retail stores. Stephon Marbury, the former Knicks point guard turned sneaker entrepreneur, has inked a deal with Citi Trends to sell his affordable shoe line in its 545 stores starting this month, The Post has learned. The Savannah, Ga., off-price chain will be the first store to…

  • [NYPost] Knicks hire Obama’s brother-in-law for front-office post
    (Monday, August 07, 2017 10:12:18 AM)

    The construction continues — and not just on every road you use daily. The Knicks front office is adding another piece as Bucks executive Craig Robinson, the brother-in-law of former President Barack Obama and former college teammate of Knicks president Steve Mills, will be joining the team to serve “multiple roles” in the organization, league…

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks hire Craig Robinson, Barack Obama’s brother-in-law, in front- office role, report says
    (Monday, August 07, 2017 7:31:56 PM)

    Craig Robinson, the brother-in-law of former President Barack Obama, will join the Knicks in a front-office role, The Vertical reported Monday.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks sign second-round draft pick Damyean Dotson
    (Monday, August 07, 2017 4:10:17 PM)

    The Knicks announced the signing of second-round draft pick Damyean Dotson, a 6-6 guard out of the University of Houston.

  • [NYDN] Knicks add Obama’s brother-in-law Craig Robinson to front office
    (Monday, August 07, 2017 8:51:13 PM)

    The Knicks have hired Bucks front office executive Craig Robinson, who is the brother-in-law of former President Barack Obama.

  • [NYTimes] Craig Robinson Is Reportedly Joining the Knicks’ Front Office
    (Tuesday, August 08, 2017 12:34:47 AM)

    Robinson, who has coaching and executive experience, is the brother of the former first lady Michelle Obama. His new title remains unclear.

  • 144 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.08.08)

    1. Totes McGoats

      What I can’t understand is, if you are hired for basketball- why does the media’s first, second, and third story-line hafta be who you’re related to? As a Knicks fan, I could care less that Craig Robinson’s brother in law is Barack Obama. I don’t know what’s worse- the fact that the media has to use that in news reports about Robinson’s new job- or the fact that people by and large are more prone to paying attention to a report when “Obama’s brother in law” is used in the headline. Craig Robinson didn’t get the job because of who he’s related to. It kinda makes me wonder if people who pay attention because he’s the related to the Obamas are only doing so for nefarious reasons. You know- looking for more ammo to shoot somebody down with. I for one, will be judging Craig Robinson on his merits and what he does in his new position. It’s just profoundly sad that I may be in the minority with that line of thinking

    2. Z-man

      Asking Ron to be the starting PG is setting him up to fail. Say what you want about Ramon Sessions, the guy has played 15,000 minutes as an NBA point guard and has acquitted himself well. Last season was an injury-plagued, off year for him, and he still managed a .495 TS%, 24.2 AST% and 12.7 TOV%. Those are not good numbers, but look how much Ron would have to improve just to match that: Ron had a .456 TS%, 17.3 AST% and 19.2 TOV% as a rookie. He’d have to tack on 50 points of TS%, increase his AST% by almost 50% and cut his turnovers almost in half to match Sessions’ crummy numbers from last year.

      As much as I bag on Scrappy Doo, I could see him succeeding as a combo guard, a SG off the bench who can act as the third PG in a pinch. Asking him to START at PG and play 2,000 minutes is insanity. He’d be the worst starting PG in the NBA by a mile.

      There are two separate arguments here, and I should have clarified. I think that Ron will be roughly a $5 million player in terms of production. That, in and of itself, would make him a lousy-ish starter or top 7 rotation player at any position. And by extension, it’s fair to say that he would not help a bad team win.

      What I am saying is that Ron is not going to be the reason that we win 12, 22, 32, 42, or 52 games. I think he will figure out how to play more consistently like he did in his best games. He will shoot better, turn the ball over less and play better D. He is not going to be the player you have so dismissively derided based on his 800 minutes of play at a totally new position last year. This will be true whether he starts or plays off the bench. He will help the team. You’ll see.

      I predict that he will play just well enough to opt in, and we as fans will be glad that he did. It will be found money for the naysayers here, good for them.

    3. Z-man

      I also think that Ron’s play will be a referendum on Hornacek. Is there any doubt that the main reason that Ron got that contract is because Hornacek lobbied for him? If Ron does play largely like he did last year, no GM should ever trust his personnel input again.

    4. Nick C.

      You would think some social justice warrior would pick up on the Starbury sneaker and its price of $14.98 vis a vis Nike and the other triple digit sneakers are much less the Lonzo Ball footwear.

    5. Z-man

      In a larger sense, I’m cool with the notion of PG by committee with the 3 high-character guys we have (Ramon, Ron, Frank, maybe Randle.) My guess is that Ramon (if healthy) gets 25-30 mpg, Ron gets most of the rest, and Frank is spotted in. Combined, I expect them to average around 15 and 9. It’s a low-stakes position for our team as currently constructed. Most of the scoring will be from wings and bigs, and the PGs just have to set them up,

    6. Frank

      It seems a little bit possible that Baker was given the big contract as sort of a reward for playing hard and playing the right way, doing whatever was asked of him? The contract itself is so out of the norm for someone with Baker’s stats but overall is relatively insignificant in terms of overall dollars – seems an ok way to make a point? The player option still sticks in my craw though.

      Maybe I’m giving the FO way too much credit. (I’m definitely giving them way too much credit)

      Per Ian Begley, Perry is trying to add two more of his guys to the Knicks FO. Seems pretty likely that Griffin’s problem wasn’t bringing in his own guys, but that he basically wanted full control (ie. instead of Mills). Perry doesn’t seem to have any issue with hiring guys he wants.

    7. lavor postell

      It’s pretty amusing how out of proportion the media spun the story after Griffin pulled his name out.

    8. bobneptune

      You would think some social justice warrior would pick up on the Starbury sneaker and its price of $14.98 vis a vis Nike and the other triple digit sneakers are much less the Lonzo Ball footwear.

      Social justice warriors (lord how I love that term) tend to be a little more handy spending OTHER people’s money…. not so much their own.

      But I am surprised he can’t make a deal with a place like WalMart at those prices.

    9. KnickfaninNJ

      Totes, I agree, it’s disgusting the press focuses on the brother-in-law aspect of the hire. It woild be nice to have some information on his accomplishments and/or character instead of just his family.

    10. stratomatic is despondent

      Per Ian Begley, Perry is trying to add two more of his guys to the Knicks FO. Seems pretty likely that Griffin’s problem wasn’t bringing in his own guys, but that he basically wanted full control (ie. instead of Mills). Perry doesn’t seem to have any issue with hiring guys he wants.

      It’s not a matter of bringing in your own guys. It’s a matter of who you want to bring in and who you want to remove. Griffin would have removed some of the people loyal to Mills that he deemed incompetent and brought in people he deemed competent and loyal to him. Mills wanted no part of that. Perry is not removing any Mills people and is bringing in people that will be loyal to him and Mills. They are EXPANDING the swamp and it’s very likely the Knicks are going to pay for it long term because the biggest alligator is incompetent.

    11. stratomatic is despondent

      He was hired because he’s a basketball guy and friends with Mills, not because he has a brilliant record of coaching, player development, was the most qualified man for the job, or any other such worthy reason. I have no problem with people hiring friends. You want to surround yourself with like minded people that will be loyal to you. I have a problem with Mills being in charge of it all because he’s an incompetent and he’s surrounding himself with like minded friends. It remains to be seen if this new guy is any good. I’m not sure how he should even be judged. I just know which way I would bet if I had a good a criteria and a report card .

    12. lavor postell

      @stratomatic

      Mills might be incompetent as far as handing out contracts, something Perry has reportedly been looking to address by bringing in a capologist, but I’ve seen nothing from him so far to suggest he’s a total buffoon as far as basketball decisions are concerned. The Knicks haven’t done much other than sign some guys and not make a stupid trade to move Melo or to get Kyrie.

      I’d guess he has some redeeming qualities as he also was a major figure in the drafting of Hernangomez after he reported back on him to Phil when he saw him live after going over to scout Porzingis. He was also deployed by Phil along with Kristian Petisic, director of scouting, and Makhtar N’diaye, a scout, to personally scout and report back on Ntilikina, who the Knicks picked. Mills also came out pretty strong in support of the pick when asked about it in Perry’s intro press conference without making any qualifiers and basically saying that’d have been his pick also, so I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt if Frank turns into a quality player.

      Sure, Mills could turn out to be a total dud. If you’re betting on that the odds are in your favor given the recent track history of Knicks execs, but nothing I’ve seen from him since taking the job leads me to believe he’s 100%, for sure, a fuck up.

    13. Bruno Almeida

      I see no issue with hiring friends to positions in the Front Office if the guy can contribute, it literally happens in every single front office. As long as it’s not just a mindless crone it’s fine.
      But let’s be honest, hiring someone related in such a level to a recent president of the USA is obviously going to make the news, it would be very naive to expect this media to not jump on that immediately.

    14. lavor postell

      Mills gets a D or an F for the THJ signing in my book

      Is this more about the contract or just the player independent of that?

      I’m okay with taking a chance on THJ even though I believe it is an overpay, so if I had to grade it, something I don’t like doing, I guess I’d give it a C. My point was really just that even if somebody hates it entirely like you and gives it an F, there’s just not enough to extrapolate from what we’ve seen that Mills is a complete buffoon.

      The THJ and Baker contracts aren’t inspiring, but hiring Perry and not making really stupid trades ASAP are nice, albeit a low bar for him to clear. There’s just not a whole lot he’s done to pass judgment on him for.

      It’s not his fault Dolan likes to promote his guys, but there’s always a chance one of his guys may not be a total fucking moron. The guy from Princeton who was in line to be appointed head of the NBPA before being re-hired by MSG in 2013 may actually have a chance.

    15. DS

      The Post-Ewing-Era GM/Presidents are:

      (1) Donnie Walsh (assembled a roster that made some sense; tore down said roster after Dolan pulled rank and forced him to do the ‘Melo trade)
      (2) Glenn Grunwald (if it wasn’t for the Bargnani deal I’d put him at #1 for assembling the 2013 team)
      (3) Scott Perry because little/no track record is better than the track record of most of these guys
      (4) Steve Mills (ditto)
      (5) Phil (drafted Porzingis; you know the rest)
      (6) Layden (some, albeit few, redeeming moves; bizarre obsession with undersized forwards and players affiliated with the state of Utah)
      (7) Isiah (destructive philosophy on team building, highly overrated drafter)

      https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/executives.html

    16. DS

      Is this more about the contract or just the player independent of that?

      It’s the contract. It’s a clear “overpay” as you say and it takes up too much precious cap space. My opinion is that there are executives in the NBA who would have gotten THJ at a much lower price than the contact he received. Instead, the Knicks bid against themselves and they bid too high.

      I agree that the THJ contract alone does not necessarily make Mills “a complete buffoon.” For one thing, I have doubts that he would make such a deal if he worked for someone other than Dolan.

    17. Bruno Almeida

      The problem is that its not like Mills just arrived at MSG and is being badly received by us because he overpaid THJ and Baker. He has been around the Knicks front office in its most appalling displays of incompetence and shadiness, and then when promoted to a higher level, overpaid those dudes before hiring Perry.

      I’m not saying it’s clear he’s a buffoon or anything, because I don’t really know how involved he was in basketball related decisions throughout so many years, but there’s reason to react poorly to the fact he got this job from Dolan.

    18. DRed

      but I’ve seen nothing from him so far to suggest he’s a total buffoon as far as basketball decisions are concerned

      The Baker contract was atrocious. If it wasn’t just some sort of sop to CAA I have no idea how you could possibly justify it as an executive.

    19. stratomatic is despondent

      Forget about basketball for minute, if you look back to the Isiah era and Mills relationship to those fiascos there’s evidence he’s not even a good guy.

      I don’t care how much you hated Phil’s arrogance, quirky behavior, insistence on the triangle, treatment of Melo etc… in purely basketball terms we have also taken a step backwards with Mills in charge also.

    20. DS

      The one almost constant in our suffering, starting with his relationship with Isiah going forward, has been Dolan and Mills. Forget about basketball for minute, if you look back the Isiah era there’s evidence that Mills is not even a good guy.

      Actually, it’s worse than that because Mills was gone from 2009-2013, i.e. pretty much all of the years the Knicks were in the playoffs.

    21. stratomatic is despondent

      @DS

      I’m glad you quoted me there. I put that sentence in my post & then edited it out. I should have kept it in. So I’m glad you put it up.

    22. thenoblefacehumper

      I don’t care how much you hated Phil’s arrogance, quirky behavior, insistence on the triangle, treatment of Melo etc… in purely basketball terms we have also taken a step backwards with Mills in charge also.

      I hated that Phil put $65 million dollars on our 2018-2019 cap sheet between Joakim Noah, Lance Thomas, Courtney Lee, and Carmelo Anthony (with a full NTC!). That was really bad in purely basketball terms. I would say the jury is still very much out on whether or not the Mills/Perry regime will be better. They certainly haven’t done anything nearly as dumb as the Mega Max Melo NTC deal or the Joakim Noah deal.

    23. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      You guys underestimate the value of scoring on the open market. If you get a guy who can score 19 points/36 on a .535 eFG% you have a valuable piece for your offense. TH2 is a good bet to improve on that considering his age and being in an offense that will be catered to his abilities.

      I bet that we at least break even on value over the Hardaway Jr contract. If he raises his 3PT% into the high 30s and low 40s, we have Bradley Beal with better defense and at a fraction of the price.

    24. johnnyhoops

      Signing Robinson might make ESPN leave us alone. I fully expect to start hearing a few comments and stories about how we’ve turned the corner.

    25. lavor postell

      The Baker contract was atrocious. If it wasn’t just some sort of sop to CAA I have no idea how you could possibly justify it as an executive.

      Sure, I’m not arguing against that. I meant it more from a roster construction standpoint. I feel Mills signed guys in areas of need and in the right age profiles for a rebuild. Phil overstocked us with 5’s and his ultimate undoing was shifting tact after 15/16 to aggressively pursue a win now team. He said all the right things after the season about wanting to build through the draft and around youth, but Mills has actually put his misallocated money where his mouth is in doing so.

      A better way to put it might be that if we had signed the same players this summer, but to better contract terms, for the most part I think we’d be feel better about what they did. It’s the numbers involved and specific contract terms like player options and trade kickers which are issues and they are serious ones. My hope is that with Perry and co. involved now, that improves.

      Under Phil, the contract terms were an issue, but also the age profile of the players targeted and what it said about how he planned to build were always major sticking points. That doesn’t seem to be the case with Mills so far.

    26. Kevin Udwary

      You guys underestimate the value of scoring on the open market. If you get a guy who can score 19 points/36 on a .535 eFG% you have a valuable piece for your offense.

      There were 43 players in the NBA that did this last season on over 1000 minutes. It’s really not that rare of a skill.
      Link

    27. DS

      I bet that we at least break even on value over the Hardaway Jr contract. If he raises his 3PT% into the high 30s and low 40s, we have Bradley Beal with better defense and at a fraction of the price.

      Obviously it would be awesome if he plays at the level of other guys making $18 million per year or plays at the level of guys who are making even more. And if he does play at that level, those of us who felt stung by the contract, will probably will feel less so.

      BUT how does that justify the decision to pay him more than they needed to pay him?

    28. KnickfaninNJ

      It’s not that the press shouldn’t mention Robinson is Obama’s brother in law; I do agree that people will want to know that. But not to talk about his qualifications at all? From Wikipedia (thanks for the link, DS) It turns out he has one year total of NBA executive experience. Tbe rest of his experience is Wall street or coaching. I think that sort of background might mean he can second guess everyone in the organization, especially as he has no clearly defined role. I worry.

    29. JK47

      There were 43 players in the NBA that did this last season on over 1000 minutes. It’s really not that rare of a skill.

      You sorted by TS% though, not eFG% as The Glass Half Rebuilt mentioned. When you change the filter to a .535 eFG% instead of TS%, you get 19 players:

    30. TheOakmanCometh

      Bradley Beal put up better numbers than Hardaway in every category last year, has better career numbers, and is a year younger. So the likelihood that THJ becomes Beal is extremely unlikely.

      And he’s making $22m vs Hardaway’s $16.5m. So it’s pretty misleading to say THJ is a fraction of the price. Beal also doesn’t have a player option or a trade kicker.

    31. KnickfaninNJ

      On the subject of GMs, i cant agree on ranking Walsh above Grunwald. Why give Walsh a pass for trading for Melo but not give a pass to Grunwald for trading for Bargnani? And Walsh was the one one who broke up a decent team in the foolish hope of luring Lebron. He also gave Amare way to much given his medical history.

    32. JK47

      Gaah, my link didn’t work, but the 19 players are:
      Leonard, James, Towns, Curry, Thomas, Antetokuonmpo, Durant, Paul, Hayward, Lowry, Conley, Jokic, Beal, McCollum, Thompson, Kanter, Hardaway, Reddick, Speights

      Hardaway’s solid eFG% will help the Knicks if he can replicate it. The Knicks predictably sucked in the offensive eFG% category last year, with Melo and Rose taking lots of low-eFG% shots. If he can manage a .537 eFG% again with 20+ USG% that actually helps solve a problem the Knicks had last year Four Factors-wise.

    33. Totes McGoats

      Be fair: it’s not just some little factoid that he’s Michelle Obama’s brother! It’s to-be-expected that 99% of the world cares most about that.

      True indeed, DS. But therein lies the rub. The world SHOULDN’T care about that in any capacity outside of politics maybe, and it SHOULD be a factoid. Delino Deshields is a 4th or 5th cousin of mine, I also lived next door to Emory Jones for years and went to school with him and hung out with him- including the Jay Z times back then, but that has nothing to do with my merits. I don’t want people askin me about that while I’m doin my job, those are merely factoids. But alot of society is more interested in those as opposed to what I can actually do. It’s sad, really

    34. rama in the JING

      And he’s making $22m vs Hardaway’s $16.5m. So it’s pretty misleading to say THJ is a fraction of the price.

      TBF that is a fraction.

    35. TheOakmanCometh

      @38

      Haha, true. Although THJ could be making $999,999,999 and it would still be a fraction of Beal’s salary, since it would still be a numerator over a denominator.

    36. TheOakmanCometh

      THJ will be the 60th highest paid player in the league next year. Last year he ranked #101 in WS/48 and #128 in BPM. 538’s analysis says he was worth $15.1m last year.

      https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/carmelo/tim-hardaway-jr/

      Therefore, to justify his salary over the next 3 years, he will have to not only replicate last year’s performance (which was BY FAR a career season), he will have to surpass it. To justify the player option and the trade kicker, he’ll have to surpass it even more. So to everybody talking themselves into this stupid contract, just understand how much improvement is required for the contract to be even a fair-market deal.

      And even if he becomes Michael Jordan and outplays his contract, it will never change the fact that Mills could have gotten him for less money or without the player option and trade kicker. Which already makes this contract an overpay regardless of how THJ performs.

    37. lavor postell

      I still don’t think Grunwald was particularly good. He gave away picks in the Felton and Camby deals. The Felton deal also consisted in negotiating a well over market value contract, including a 4th year player option, necessitating S&T with Portland who had zero interest in signing him after he was a fat fucking shit show the year before and helped get McMillan fired. The Novak 4th year was also bad and that’s before getting to the amnesty on Billups after exercising the option on him in the first place.

      He did at least put together a good team and did well to sign Tyson, but Grunwald still seemed pretty bad at negotiating and had a tendency to include picks unnecessarily in trades.

    38. KnickfaninNJ

      I never said Grunwald was good. That is not an adjective I associate with any Knicks’ GM that I remember. I just said I thought he was better than Walsh.

    39. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      It’s not a groundbreaking event if a 25 year old shooting guard improves in his ages 26-29 seasons. TH2 was good at scoring last year, and I’d bet he’s better at it this season.

    40. chrisk06811

      I think we are a better basketball team w/ THJ than we were without him.

      If 538s analysis says he was worth $15M last year, then his deal is logical. we had to overpay some to avoid Atl matching.

      To me, as always w/ the Knicks, the question is, did we make a better deal than whatever we would have spent the $$ on. Say Baker and Hardaway’s deals are overpriced by a total of $5M this year; what would we have spent that on?

    41. JK47

      Signing players to market value contracts when you’re a sub-.400 team just does not do enough to move the needle. I’m tired of singing the same song, but it’s not a “win” if Tim Hardaway plays up to the value of that contract. It’s a push. To really win in this league you need guys who outperform their contracts. If Hardaway and Baker give the Knicks $18M worth of production for $23M in salary, those are losing moves, regardless of what the other $5M would have been spent on.

      The Hardaway contract also runs for three and possibly four years, so you’re locked into possibly four seasons of hoping Hardaway merely gives you market value on his contract, with very little chance of him generating surplus value. That is not how you win.

    42. chrisk06811

      JK, they are only losing moves if you were going to spend that $23M more wisely. We don’t really have a track record of that.

      I do agree w/ your point about only moving the needle slightly. I’m not super stoked about the deal. I just don’t think the amount is as outrageous as people are saying.

    43. Kevin Udwary

      You sorted by TS% though, not eFG% as The Glass Half Rebuilt mentioned. When you change the filter to a .535 eFG% instead of TS%, you get 19 players

      Ah, got ya. I thought it was a point about replacing Melo, who was at .535 TS% last season. The most infuriating thing about the THJ signing, for me, was that there was no reason for this team to make a offer on a RFA. Just make him an offer when he is a UFA in the next offseason. There was no reason to rush it.

    44. Grocer

      I agree that the THJ contract alone does not necessarily make Mills “a complete buffoon.” For one thing, I have doubts that he would make such a deal if he worked for someone other than Dolan.

      I dunno. Mills recent tenure has been marked with a lot of bad contracts. THJ and Baker, but he was here for the Melo NTC and kicker. The weird second year player options that Phil gave out seem real similar to that THJ contract. The Noah contract. There’s a bunch of questionable choices and Phil is ultimately responsible but Mills was his number two – who was doing the actual negotiating? At this point I have to lean towards Mills being really bad at knowing what’s a good contract, what’s not, and what’s necessary to get/keep a player. He may or may not be good at the rest of his job, but I’m hoping that Perry handles the negotiations from here on out.

    45. swiftandabundant

      @ 47 – but can’t they be winning moves if they play up to their contract and other players on the team outperform THEIR contracts? Its unrealistic to expect a team, even a really good one, to have all of their rotation players be players who outplay the value of their contracts. What really kills a team are players (veteran free agents esp) who underperform to the value of their contracts and there are no players who outperform.

      So for our sakes – if Hardaway and Ron play to the value of their contract its a good deal IF Frank, KP and Willie H all outperform their contracts which they are likely (at least that is the plan) to do since they are all on rookie contracts still. Plus our draft pick next year will be here for most of Hardaway’s contract. So if KP, Frank, Willie H, Dotson and next year’s pick all improve as players and out perform their contracts, then having a dude like THJ play to the value of his contract…you might have a decent team rolling.

      Right now we have dead weight with Melo (who to be fair is still a useful player) and really dead weight with Noah. And also kind of dead weight with Lee, Lance and KQ.

      If we trade Melo and don’t take on long term cap space, can get maybe a young player and/or pick(s) from a combination of Lee, KQ and Lance and Noah can bounce back at all and be a back up big, we’ve now got a decent future. Young rookie contracts with Frank, Willie, KP, next year’s rookie…plus young vet with Hardaway. Cap space from Melo. Maybe use that cap space on a young SF and draft another PG (or vice versa).

    46. Z-man

      If TH2 plays like a $15.1M player, it doesn’t necessarily justify the overpay but it doesn’t make it a bad deal either. If the floor on the deal is that he doesn’t improve but doesn’t regress, that’s not terrible. Most teams are overpaying at a position of need somewhere in the rotation.

      Everyone was crowing about how great of a deal Robin Lopez was for us, yet he played well below expectations last year for the Bulls. On the other hand, I sure hope that Noah plays like a $15.1 M player for the next 3 years!

      And speculating on what it would have taken to get Atlanta not to match is just that…speculation. If you are saying that at any price over, say $15 mill, the Knicks should have just walked away, then that’s fair. But we have no way of knowing what TH2 and his agent would have agreed to if it had been offered.

    47. Z-man

      The most infuriating thing about the THJ signing, for me, was that there was no reason for this team to make a offer on a RFA. Just make him an offer when he is a UFA in the next offseason. There was no reason to rush it.

      Doesn’t this assume (probably wrongly) that he doesn’t get a longer term contract offer from either the Hawks or an offer sheet from another team?

    48. geo

      Signing Robinson might make ESPN leave us alone. I fully expect to start hearing a few comments and stories about how we’ve turned the corner.

      tv’s in the house spend a good bit of time tuned to espn…always amazes me how many talking heads on their shows are either new yorkers, knick fans, or have covered the knicks…

      i have a sense the knick narrative from a media perspective will improve quite a bit this year…whether the actual performance out on the court improves is a whole other issue…

    49. stratomatic is despondent

      If we are going to debate the relative merits of various GMs I think you have to consider the team the GM inherited (number of bad contracts, number/quality of draft picks, budget given to him by ownership, the opportunities he had in free agency to sign attractive players, etc… )

      You also have to consider the length of time the person was in power. You can’t just count up the good/bad decisions. The longer you are in power the more decisions you are going to make. Some will inevitably be mediocre or bad and some good or even brilliant.

      If you have been in power 3 weeks, made 3 decisions, and 2 of them were bad, you are doing a horrible job.

      If you have been in power 3 years made 35 decisions, 2 of them were bad, a few were mediocre, and some were great, overall you are doing a very good job.

      It’s also the nature of the game that players get injured, disappoint, have personal problems, don’t fit as expected, or don’t develop even when the most competent of people agree on the probabilities. Sometimes you also get pleasant surprises. So some of the results are random.

    50. fmikieo

      I LOVE how folks take the Hawks statement of looking to sign THJr for 4/48 as fact that that’s what would’ve happened.

      For all we know, that could well have been their first offer, prompting THJr to look elsewhere. Anything besides what wound up happened is just conjective alternative history based on merely a competitor’s marketing statement.

      Because marketing always is truthful.

    51. stratomatic is despondent

      IMO, we have 4 bad contracts.

      1. Noah
      2. THJ
      3. Baker
      4. Melo

      We could move anyone else on the team if we were so inclined and thought it would improve the team and fill a need better.

      Noah won’t earn his contract, but it’s possible he’ll have a very productive 60 games or so this year giving us 20 minutes a night. In the short period he was not fighting injuries last year, he was rebounding really well, moving better, and scoring more efficiently (for him). It would not shock me if he had another injured riddled year, but he would also not be the first player his age to bounce back. Gasol looked close to done in LA a few years back after repeated injuries and now he’s playing really well again.

      Baker will have to improve his shooting a lot or his good defense will not be enough to keep him on the court. However, there is at least some reason to be optimistic. His FT shooting was better in college. So last year may have been a bit of a negative aberration in all ways. Plus, shooting is a skill that can improve with time. His contract is not an albatross anyway.

      THJ is the wildcard. It’s a gamble that his 2nd half of the season last year was indicative of his sustainable level of play. It if is, that contract will be fine. If not, it will be an albatross.

      Melo’s salary size and the NTC are a negative, but I still think he’s going to be moved before the season starts and we are going to get a tolerable return. If not, I don’t see it as some kind of disaster even though I’d like to move on from him as much as anyone. He could still be traded during the season or opt out next year if he plays well this year. The worst case scenario is 2 more years. That’s right around the same time the young players will hopefully be getting good and we could use the contract space anyway.

    52. TheOakmanCometh

      What the Hawks say publicly means nothing. The reasons to believe no one, including the Hawks, was offering THJ anything close to $71m + trade kicker + player option are:

      1) THJ’s performance last year doesn’t justify it.
      2) THJ’s performance before last year really really really doesn’t justify it.
      3) Google “tim hardaway contract.” Almost every link is to an article about how the Knicks made a shocking/inexplicable/horrible overpay. When nearly every analyst says it’s a huge overpay, it’s an overpay.
      4) Atlanta declined matching rights well before their 48-hour window was expired, which almost never happens.

    53. kevin5318

      @MikeAScotto
      New York Knicks and former No. 2 overall pick Michael Beasley are nearing agreement on a one-year deal, a league source told @BBallInsiders.

    54. alsep73

      Guys, guys, why are we still debating the TH2 contract when the Knicks are gradually working their way through the 2008 NBA Draft lottery?

      @MikeAScotto
      New York Knicks and former No. 2 overall pick Michael Beasley are nearing agreement on a one-year deal, a league source told @BBallInsiders.

    55. TheOakmanCometh

      And for anyone arguing that 538’s analysis of THJ’s value last year ($15.1m) justifies his contract because he’s going to get better, keep in mind that 538 estimated his value in the previous two seasons to be -$5.5m combined. That’s negative $5.5m. Meaning he was worse than replacement-level, worse than Ron Baker.

      If a player’s career arc goes awful-awful-awful-good, and you had to bet your house on what his next year is going to be, would you choose “even better than that one outlier season”? I sure as hell wouldn’t. Other than him being kind of young (and plenty of players have career seasons at 25 and never get better) there is literally no reason to believe he’s going to make some leap next year. It’s more likely that he regresses.

      538 estimates his value over the next 5 years to be $40m, or $8m per year. We’re paying him $18m a year. Plus a player option. Plus a trade kicker. Plus he gets to kiss Steve Mills’ wife whenever he wants.

    56. TheOakmanCometh

      Guys, guys, why are we still debating the TH2 contract when the Knicks are gradually working their way through the 2008 NBA Draft lottery?

      Somebody get OJ Mayo on the phone!

    57. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      Beasley helps our eFG%, too. And that .584 TS%/25.3 USG% is notthing to sneeze at. He’s a poor rebounder for his size and probably a bad defender, too, but Hornacek has made Gerald Green into a good baller in the past.

      For the minimum, he’s a good guy to have on your roster.

    58. stratomatic is despondent

      Area weed dealers going to be celebrating

      He’s texting JR Smith as we speak to find out where to get the good stuff.

    59. Jack Bauer

      Of course, they will need Beasley to replace all of the Melo ISO’s in their offense when they ultimately trade him. I thought the recent comment was Perry hasn’t done anything stupid yet. Signing Michael Beasley would be gold medal award winning stupid

    60. Totes McGoats

      BE EASY Mike Beasley!!

      He’s going to shoot way too much but otherwise, “eh.

      Ha! Facts! Perfect replacement for Melo, no?

    61. stratomatic is despondent

      Seriously, these guys in charge now are idiots. They are going to throw 3 years of decent work positioning the team for the future out the window in weeks by overpaying and bringing in broken down or bad players than can score. It’s Isiah part 2. In 2 years you guys are going to be referring to Phil’s tweets as the good old days.

    62. Totes McGoats

      You know what’s weird? Ramon Session’s Wikipedia page still says he’s a FA, while Beasley’s says he’s a New York Knick lol

      We are gunna skoor pointzzz my friends!
      Bahahahahahaha!

    63. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      Guys Mike Beasley didn’t suck last year. A .554 eFG% with a .584 TS% is a good piece to have.

    64. DS

      Seriously, these guys in charge now are idiots. They are going to throw 3 years of decent work positioning the team for the future out the window in weeks by overpaying and bringing in broken down or bad players than can score. It’s Isiah part 2. In 2 years you guys are going to be referring to Phil’s tweets as the good old days.

      Perspective, man. He’s going to make a one-year vet minimum and probably be behind Lance Thomas on the depth chart.

    65. stratomatic is despondent

      Forget about Beasley’s stats last year. There’s a reason a guy with that much talent hasn’t been able to stick anywhere, including being given 2 chances in Miami where they can fix practically anyone.

    66. DRed

      Beasley has managed to turn himself into a fairly efficient scorer. He still stinks, but he’s not going to kill your team anymore.

    67. kevin5318

      @IanBegley
      Clarence Gaines Jr. will remain with the Knicks’ front office as a scout, league sources tell ESPN:

    68. stratomatic is despondent

      Beasley has managed to turn himself into a fairly efficient scorer. He still stinks, but he’s not going to kill your team anymore.

      This is what is known as positive spin. :-)

      If Phil made this move everyone would be saying there are still 2 dozen young players out there we’d be better off taking a flier on than Beasley. I’d be agreeing with them.

    69. stratomatic is despondent

      @IanBegley
      Clarence Gaines Jr. will remain with the Knicks’ front office as a scout, league sources tell ESPN:

      OK, so that’s 1 good move, 1 neutral move, and 3 bad moves.

    70. stratomatic is despondent

      Delblogo? @Delblogo 11s12 seconds ago
      More
      I don’t know if anyone realizes, while it’s good that Gaines is staying he’s been demoted from VP of Player Development title. Just a scout.

      I may have to take back 1/2 that good move.

    71. JK47

      I wasn’t even aware that Beasley was still in the league. I thought he was a Shanghai Shark or something. He didn’t suck last year– he provided some efficient bench scoring for the Bucks and didn’t make himself a pain in the ass. He’s not a world-beater, but vet min guys rarely are.

      He was a better player than Lance last year in a comparable number of minutes.

    72. MSA

      I don’t mind Beasley at a vet min taking Lance’s minutes.

      I still think it would be better to roll the dice on some undrafted/Euro SF…

      Please, just don’t offer a player option.

    73. thenoblefacehumper

      Beasley isn’t good, but he’s definitely above average value on a minimum deal. He’s better than Lance Thomas who Phil Jackson turned into a multi millionaire. We may actually get surplus value on Beasley’s deal. If he acts up in some way, we cut him. This is exactly the kind of low-risk/medium reward move Phil Jackson never made–these last few roster spots always went to the Sasha Vujacics and Shannon Browns of the world.

    74. stratomatic is despondent

      Beasley is only better than Lance if you don’t count defense, assume that Lance is going to be playing on 1/2 of 1 leg again this year, and that having idiots on your team doesn’t hurt anything.

      Seriously, this is not a terrible move and it wouldn’t have been a terrible move if Phil made it either. It’s one year at the minimum. It’s just so obviously not not the right move. If you have an extra roster spot and you are trying to rebuild you take a flier on some undrafted kid or some young Euro player. You don’t sign Beasley. Miami can handle and fix just about any personality on earth. They gave Beasley 2 chances and he washed out. If he was such a model locker room guy and good off the bench like reports from the Bucks say, why didn’t they bring him back at the minimum?

    75. thenoblefacehumper

      If I had my druthers we’d always fill out the roster with interesting Euro/D-League/undrafted guys, but half-decent 28 year olds who the market dried up for is at least close to the next best thing. It sure beats “triangle coaches” or whatever.

    76. kevin5318

      Milwuakee has a bunch of SF/PF’s already(well so do we). Otherwise I agree with you that its not exactly the right move and would prefer we sign a younger guy.

    77. JK47

      Beasley is only better than Lance if you don’t count defense

      Call me crazy but I’m not too impressed with Lance’s defense. He waves his arms around a lot and looks like he’s expending effort, but he doesn’t seem like a stalwart defender to me.

      If you have an extra roster spot and you are trying to rebuild you take a flier on some undrafted kid or some young Euro player.

      I agree with this for the most part, but the Knicks still CAN sign a young guy or two. Beasley brings the roster count up to 13. I wouldn’t mind taking a flyer on another young PG with one of those slots.

    78. Brian Cronin

      Yeah, I think Lance has made a lot of hay on looking like he’s giving a shit out there at all times, which sadly stands out in this league.

    79. GoNyGoNyGo

      When you’re the Knicks, and you’re going to suck, taking a risk on a player like Michael Beasley may not be a bad move. Is he finished? Did he ever get started? He’s sucked but he always had the potential. What do we have to lose? Oh, yeah. If he’s good, ping-pong balls. It all comes back to those.

      Oh, and according to something I just read on ESPN, this give the Knicks 15 active roster spots and 1 two-way contract in the pocket. All we can use is one more 2-way contract.

    80. DRed

      Beasley would be a fine signing if our plan is to trade him at the deadline to a friend playoff team who needs a bucket getter. It’s probably not though. Hopefully he’s our stopgap Melo replacement, but he’s probably not though.

    81. chrisk06811

      it’s hard to call Baker’s contract bad when it makes up only 5% of the cap. we aren’t hamstrung in any way because we signed the deal. yeah, we didn’t need to, and it’s too much $$

    82. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      Come on. At least Michael Beasley is cheap as hell and has been really good at scoring the ball in recent years.

    83. Hubert

      If he doesn’t get a trade kicker and a player option for year 2, I mean… that’s progress, right?

    84. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Beasley is a perfectly adequate pickup unless he fucks up our ping-pong balls, which is a small but live possibility

    85. Hubert

      Guys, guys, why are we still debating the TH2 contract when the Knicks are gradually working their way through the 2008 NBA Draft lottery?

      OJ Mayo is eligible for reinstatement next summer.

    86. kevin5318

      Beasley is a perfectly adequate pickup unless he fucks up our ping-pong balls, which is a small but live possibility

      He definitely will.

    87. Bruno Almeida

      yeah, it’s gonna be kinda inconsequential. Beasley gonna score some, play little defense, soak up some usage and that’s it. He shot pretty well last season in a limited role. It’s not a signing I would make, but meh, won’t move the needle either way too much. It’s just a one year deal too and hes a capable backup for KP at the 4.

    88. KnickfaninNJ

      I had a brianstorm and realized what Robinson’s job title must be. He has some political experience, he’s an experienced coach, he knows finance, but he has only one year of experience as an NBA exec and it looks he will report directly to Mills. He must be the King’s Hand.

    89. Hubert

      The sad truth is this actually one of the best signings we’ve made in a very long time. He’s actually getting paid what he’s worth. and there are no unnecessary throw ins. Very unusual in Knicks land. I’m all in on the Scott Perry era.

    90. Early Bird

      it’s hard to call Baker’s contract bad when it makes up only 5% of the cap. we aren’t hamstrung in any way because we signed the deal. yeah, we didn’t need to, and it’s too much $$

      Just because a contract isn’t atrocious, doesn’t mean it’s not bad. And it does prevent us from signing other players who may actually be worth the contract.

    91. Early Bird

      I like the Beasley signing. He’ll give us some scoring and take the focus off some of the young guns. If he plays well we can flip him at the deadline for another young asset. Good or bad, we only have him for a year. I don’t ever see him playing so well that we regret not signing him to an option either.

    92. Z-man

      Well, since we are striking out on getting future top-2 draft picks, might as well get former ones.

      Beasley. Rose, Bargnani. Milicic. Williams.

      Maybe we could create an all-draft bust team, just add Bennett, Thabeet, and Morrison,

    93. stratomatic is despondent

      Call me crazy but I’m not too impressed with Lance’s defense. He waves his arms around a lot and looks like he’s expending effort, but he doesn’t seem like a stalwart defender to me.

      Is your impression of his defense based on watching him with no legs, one leg or two legs?

      I think he’s the best defender on the team when healthy. I concede his health has become a bit of an issue.

    94. Kevin Udwary

      Beasley would be a fine signing if our plan is to trade him at the deadline to a friend playoff team who needs a bucket getter.

      It might at least make them more comfortable moving Lee. Whatever, it’s a short term veteran min contract that isn’t going to win us more games. Tank away.

    95. dtrickey

      The Beasley signing is neither here nor there IMO. It’s a low risk, feel lucky you get something out of him kind of deal ( I would say high reward, but let’s be honest here). Also I believe he had 3 stints with Miami, so take from that what you will. I thought that this might have been a Hornacek and Beasley reunion, but I think Horny might have been HC the year after MB left the Suns. Either way it is a meh move that does not do much either way.

    96. Ntilakilla

      Beasley is only better than Lance if you don’t count defense, assume that Lance is going to be playing on 1/2 of 1 leg again this year, and that having idiots on your team doesn’t hurt anything.

      Um, this is ridiculous. Beasley is a career .052 WS/48 player while Thomas’ career mark is .042. If you look at their past three seasons the difference is even more pronounced.

    97. KnickfaninNJ

      My inference from the three Miami stints is that the Heat found Beasley a useful player, but one who they didn’t regret moving somewhere else when opportunity beckoned. I think we may feel the same way. But they were a better team than us, so he might be more useful to us than he was to them. I agree with Hubert, tnis is a good signing.

    98. Bruno Almeida

      The one issue I have with the Beasley signing is that yeah, he can score with decent efficiency, but that’s the only thing he provides… even then, on a vet minimum there’s no risk involved, at best he’s a capable backup who shoots too much. I can see him being a slight hindrance to a decent team, or a player who brings a couple of undesirable wins to a bad team, but not much else. Not much reason to freak out over the 12th roster spot when the team already has plenty of young dudes to develop still.

    99. Bruno Almeida

      Beasley will occupy the roster spot Ndour and Plumlee occupied last year, and it’s fair to say he’ll be less useless. With the G-League you can take fliers on the Ndours of the world there anyway.

    100. Ntilakilla

      I think he’s the best defender on the team when healthy. I concede his health has become a bit of an issue.

      This is a good example of why the eye test is bullshit.

      This season Lance Thomas was 64th out of 70 NBA small forwards in real defensive plus-minus. Micheal Beasley, BTW, was 51st.

      Last season Lance was 51st out of 62 small forwards, while Beasley was 54th.

      Its hard to see how Beasley isn’t an upgrade across the board except for his personal history, which means nothing since he can be cut at the drop of a dime should he act up.

    101. danvt

      It’s absolutely relevant that Robinson is related to Michelle Obama. It makes me feel really good about the move. The Times article talked about his basketball experience. This isn’t some Steve Mills lark. I think he’s smart and understands what the better posters here do, probably.

      Jowles, you know basketball. Please take the time to post something which enriches these threads. Today it doesn’t seem you even took time to read it. Trolling is beneath you and yet you resort to it all too often.

      I don’t mind Beasley. I don’t mind winning games and losing ping pong balls. When draft time comes I’ll wish we had better position but I’m glad we’re not PHI.

      I think Baker has a chance to improve and be a decent player this year.

    102. TheOakmanCometh

      This is a whatever move. Very similar to Derrick Williams. A scoring wing who provides little of value but will slightly outplay his cheap contract.

      Given that he’s a poor man’s Melo, I wonder if this suggests Perry knows he’s trading Melo.

    103. danvt

      Clint Frazier has an on base % of .272 right now. That’s clearly below average. Should the Yanks get someone else?

    104. Z-man

      Financially, there is no comparison between the Beasley and DWill moves. DWill had a $5 mill deal with a player option, while Beasley is on a vet’s minimum 1-year flyer. They were also at different points in their respective careers. And the team was much more in win-now mode than they are now. But talent/fit-wise, yeah, they’re pretty similar.

    105. 2FOR18, understands math

      “It’s hard to call Baker’s contract bad ……………………………….yeah, we didn’t need to, and it’s too much $$”

      Even in an attempted defense of that deal, logic manages to win out.

      I said this for years about Seth Curry, and now I’m going to keep saying it about Briante Weber. Why don’t we take a shot on this guy???!!! We need pg defense and he’s basically free FFS.
      So now we have 4 2 guards, 4 SFs, and 4 centers. I don’t understand this obsession with redundancy.

    106. 2FOR18, understands math

      My first impression upon hearing about Beasley is that melo is getting traded, but that’s probably wishful thinking.

    107. Early Bird

      My first impression upon hearing about Beasley is that melo is getting traded, but that’s probably wishful thinking.

      If nothing else I think there will be less of an outcry if we bench Melo for Beasley rather than Mindaugus Kuzminskas or Lance “He’s Kinda Tall and Maybe Good at Defense??” Thomas.

      Saves Hornacek some boos/Post articles.

    108. Bruno Almeida

      While the redudancy does bother me, I’ll guess it is related to how Hornacek wants to build the team. I definitely think he wants to go small ball in some lineups, so we’ll probably see a mix of lineups with 3 guards (like Sessions / Baker, Frank / Lee, Hardaway) with KP and Willy / Noah O’Quinn, and lineups with KP at the 5 with Beasley, Melo, Kuz, maybe even Lance at the 4.

      I’m not saying I necessarily agree, it can also be in preparation for a further trade, but I don’t mind it too much.

    109. plenty

      Beasley is the type of lottery ticket signing that you can feel good about. Either he will be surprisingly solid or we’re talking about a jr smith except with worse tattoos.

    110. Donnie Walsh

      Doesn’t it seem that the #2 pick yields a disproportionate number of busts?

      And doesn’t it seem like all of them are destined to play on the Dolan Knicks?

      We even had Milicic, for godsakes.

      Evan Turner will be part of the Melo trade. Book it.

    111. Jack Bauer

      @132, Good point – redundancy is usually good, but not to this extent and not with that cast of characters

    112. er

      A
      Frank/sessions
      Timmy
      Melo
      Beasley
      KP

      Offense lineup would probably score alot….
      But would give up 200 points per 48 lmao

    113. BigBlueAL

      This from Bobby Marks on Twitter:

      “The Knicks Ron Baker has a one-year bird restriction based on the player option for 2018-19. Baker technically has a no trade clause and would have to approve of any trade.”

      Because of the contract having a player option Ron Baker has a freaking no-trade clause. Did the Knicks not realize this when offering him this ridiculous contract??

    114. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      holy fuck Ron Baker having a no trade clause is the perfect Knicks shit OMG

    115. Bruno Almeida

      the gift that keeps on giving!!!

      Now this is too stupid, holy fucking shit. Even if a favourable trade comes up and Baker’ s contract helps it happen, now it won’t!

      We’ll probably find out soon that Beasley’ s contract has an unprecedented clause that he can decide how many minutes he’s playing every game or it becomes a mega max 4 year deal if he gets caught with weed on his car 3 times during the season.

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