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Tuesday, October 24, 2017

Knicks Morning News (2017.08.03)

  • [NY Newsday] Carmelo Anthony finding peace and happiness again
    (Wednesday, August 02, 2017 3:29:34 PM)

    BALTIMORE — Carmelo Anthony didn’t want to talk about his future — or potentially lack thereof — with the Knicks at a charity event in his hometown on Wednesday morning.

  • [ESPN] Porzingis changes tune: New York is ‘now home’
    (Wednesday, August 02, 2017 5:32:09 PM)

    Porzingis changes tune: New York is ‘now home’

  • [ESPN] Rumor Central: Have Knicks, Kristaps Porzingis resolved their issues?
    (Wednesday, August 02, 2017 10:48:59 AM)

    Rumor Central: Have Knicks, Kristaps Porzingis resolved their issues?

  • [ESPN] Melo at ‘peace’ but unsure if he’ll stay a Knick
    (Wednesday, August 02, 2017 10:28:38 AM)

    Melo at ‘peace’ but unsure if he’ll stay a Knick

  • [SNY Knicks] Daily News Live: Anthony still wants trade to Houston
    (Wednesday, August 02, 2017 5:57:21 PM)

    Daily News Live discusses all the latest on the Carmelo Anthony and his continued request to be traded to the Houston Rockets.

  • [SNY Knicks] Porzingis wants to stay with Knicks for remainder of career
    (Wednesday, August 02, 2017 6:46:47 PM)

    After a turbulent offseason involving trade rumors, Kristaps Porzingis is excited to get things started this year with the Knicks.

  • [SNY Knicks] Carmelo Anthony says he’s been on emotional rollercoaster, will reportedly only accept trade to Rockets
    (Wednesday, August 02, 2017 10:30:05 AM)

    While speaking at The Basketball Tournament’s Day of Giving in Baltimore, Anthony said he hasn’t met with the Knicks during the offseason and called the removal of Phil Jackson a “business” decision.

  • [SNY Knicks] Kuzminskas says Porzingis, Knicks have ‘solved everything’
    (Wednesday, August 02, 2017 9:00:49 AM)

    Knicks F Mindaugas Kuzminskas says Kristaps Porzingis has made peace with the team and is happy to be a Knick.

  • [NYPost] Kristaps Porzingis is back to loving Knicks for life
    (Wednesday, August 02, 2017 12:23:18 PM)

    Even in Africa, Kristaps Porzingis’ opinion on New York hasn’t changed. The formerly disgruntled Latvian is over it and wants to be a Knick for life. He’s still hoping to play with Carmelo Anthony, but knows that may not be possible. Taking a break from Latvia’s training camp for the European Championships, Porzingis embarked on…

  • [NYPost] Carmelo Anthony: I’ve been on ‘emotional roller coaster’
    (Wednesday, August 02, 2017 7:45:57 AM)

    BALTIMORE — A bearded Carmelo Anthony, after receiving an honorary medal from the mayor of Baltimore in a ceremony, said he has spoken with new Knicks GM Scott Perry, called Phil Jackson’s firing “a business decision,’’ classified the last 12 months have been “an emotional roller coaster’’ and admitted he didn’t know if he would…

  • [NYDN] Porzingis studying Conor McGregor to boost his trash-talk game
    (Wednesday, August 02, 2017 9:08:16 PM)

    Kristaps Porzingis is hoping for a mental edge by studying a foul-mouthed fighter.

  • [NYDN] Melo hasn’t met with new Knicks regime, noncommittal about future
    (Wednesday, August 02, 2017 9:52:48 AM)

    Sources told the Daily News that team president Steve Mills has tried to talk with Anthony to go over options.

  • [NYTimes] Back in Baltimore, Carmelo Anthony Keeps His Remarks Low-Key
    (Wednesday, August 02, 2017 11:44:04 PM)

    The 10-time All-Star had little to say about the state of the Knicks, or whether he would even be with the team next season.

  • 134 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.08.03)

    1. Totes McGoats

      This may be impatience and anxiety, but if a Melo trade is going to happen it needs to happen real soon. Don’t get me wrong, I think Melo is a really good player. Age and late injuries have taken it’s toll, but he can still get 20/7/3 in his sleep- so that makes him a valuable defense magnet for a team so dependent on young scorers like we’re expected to be.

      The best thing for both parties is a trade. TH2 can probably replace his 21ppg, and I expect KP to take a nice leap as the 1st option. I still feel like that should be at C where he can take advantage of his skillset on both ends the most, but Willy is pretty damn good too and it’s gonna be hard to keep him on the bench. This is where Noah should have value if he can get healthy. He would be a great backup and mentor to the young bigs. I would love to keep KOQ, but I don’t see where he fits unless he plays PF primarily or Noah retires or somehow gets traded. KOQ and KP make a great tandem in that starting 5, so we kinda have a surplus with our bigs. Willy has the most trade value outside of KP, so you don’t trade him unless it’s an offer you can’t refuse. So, that would make the FO’s primary objectives is to find good trades for Melo & KOQ. Every other move is peripheral, though Lee needs to be moved as well. I don’t think TH2 can defend or rebound well enough to play SF full time.

    2. Totes McGoats

      This may be impatience and anxiety, but if a Melo trade is going to happen it needs to happen real soon.

      I meant to add that it’s gonna be too much of a distraction for a young developing team, from the coach down through the players, to be still talking about a possible Melo trade during the season.

    3. Z-man

      If Melo is still on the team next season and plays well enough he should start. A coach can’t run a team without selecting the best players available for each role on the team. Melo’s trade request and contract status are between him and the GM, not between him and the coach or between him and his teammates. Now if the management wants to tank, or prefers to develop young players to pushing for winning as much as possible, then Melo might take rest days or play fewer minutes, but that is completely different from benching him.

      When Steph was benched by D’Antoni, there was no b-ball related reason to do so. He was by far the best PG on the team, in shape, not in open rebellion, played well in preseason, and was not engaging in conduct detrimental to the team. The only reason he was benched is because D’Antoni hated him. The NBPA didn’t do a thing, to my recollection.

      With Melo, I doubt that he would be benched for the same reason. My guess is that he would play, and would only be benched if he rebelled against Hornacek by ignoring him or something like that. I dount that Melo would do that because it would actually devalue him to the Rockets and other teams. My guess is that he will be a good soldier, play within a better system, play reasonably well given his limitations on D, and either come around if the team improves (i.e. the young guys and TH2 play very well) or get traded it the team doesn’t. There is almost no chance of scenario unfolding where it could be proven that he would be benched for refusing to waive his ntc, so er’s premise is not even worth considering.

    4. Z-man

      I think the talk of Melo being a distraction is overstated. This happens all the time. If anything, it will be more of a distraction to Houston or Cleveland. Mills made that clear when he said the direction and focus of the team going forward is the same whether Melo is here or not.

      PS I have to defend er on the KP point. There is no doubt that KP loves Melo as a teammate and mentor, and that part of why he skipped his exit meeting was because of the unprofessional way that Phil was treating Melo. If anything, he probably toned down what he really wanted to say about management, not about Melo.

    5. Totes McGoats

      I think the talk of Melo being a distraction is overstated. This happens all the time. If anything, it will be more of a distraction to Houston or Cleveland. Mills made that clear when he said the direction and focus of the team going forward is the same whether Melo is here or not.

      I dunno Z. Melo is still held in very high regard around the league. And the kids we will be leaning on are very impressionable. For instance, take KP’s and TH2’s affinity for Melo. Those 2 are our best players outside of Melo by far. And everyone knows how much they love Melo. At the same time, they most likely don’t wanna talk about Melo on a nightly basis. That’s what worries me. The cream of the roster is pretty much tethered to Melo at a time where they need to be learning to lead. I’m not trying to imply that they are weak minded enough to let that effect them a whole lot, only that in a media market like NY that it could be too big of an unnecessary distraction. I hope that it doesn’t happen if Melo stays, and part of me kinda wants him to stay and win- but we are just too far away from winning right now.

    6. stratomatic is despondent

      I would prefer to move on from Melo because I think it would be better for the development of the team and one less distraction during the season over whether he’s going to be traded or opt out etc… However, I’m not willing to make a bad deal to do it. Personally, I would take expiring contracts rather than a single bad contract. Of course I’d prefer a good young player or a pick etc.., but if you get cap space sooner you are getting a much better deal than if you take on a bad contract.

    7. plenty

      PS I have to defend er on the KP point.

      There was no KP point. That was just the final straw being fought over between Bruno and er. If you actually go through the thread, there was just a lot of steam being blown off, rather than points being understood, acknowledged, and rebutted. Which is fine I guess, but just emphasizes how much Carmelo is treated like a diva on the Knicks. Can’t wait til the season starts and this soap opera can end. At least with Marbury we had the slight insanity, but since Melo is so cherished by some for some reason, just the thought of benching Carmelo is nigh-blasphemous.

    8. lavor postell

      Never has the star on a 31 win disappointment received as much of a pass as Carmelo Anthony did last year, but, as many have said, taking on bad long term salary just to be rid of him is more destructive than keeping him around.

    9. ess-dog

      If Melo actually wanted to play for a championship and be near his son, he would consider Boston or Toronto as landing spots. Both teams play a brand of ball that is more suited to his skills and are very close to surpassing Cleveland in the east. Boston might not want to bite, but Toronto would be intrigued, I believe.

    10. Z-man

      er said (quoting KP):

      “He’s an All-Star, an incredible player and I’ve learned so much from him,” Porzingis told NBA.com. “There’s still so much for me to learn from him. I would love to have him around and keep playing alongside him. But it is what it is. It’s a business. If it ends, well … I don’t know, it’s out of my hands. I’m really thankful for these couple of years I’ve been with him, just seeing how he works during the summer. It proves he wants to win and he wants to be great. I’m sure he’ll make the right decision for himself.”

      Bruno said: What did you want him to say? He’s a good guy who’s been trained to answer PR questions.

      plenty, there is a KP point. Bruno was insinuating that KP was being disingenuous in his response. And it is related to your point that Melo is being treated like a diva. Why is is necessarily a bad thing that young players like KP, who has practiced, played and traveled with Melo for 2 seasons, has a higher opinion of him than you do? You’re basically calling KP either naive or a liar. I tke what he said at face value, and I don’t interpret it as hero-worship BS or PR platitudes.

    11. thenoblefacehumper

      I would vastly prefer to not have Melo on the team to start the season because I think his play these days is both aesthetically horrific and bad for development. I fully agree that we shouldn’t take on any bad deals (i.e. any deals that are longer than his own) to get rid of him unless there’s sweetener attached, but it would be a huge drag for him to be on the team. It’s time for this pathetic era to end.

      On a separate note, do we think Melo is getting his number retired eventually? God, that would be embarrassing as hell but also befitting of the franchise.

    12. ess-dog

      I would take back a longer but smaller contract in a melo trade if the player was at least decent and we got a decent pick as well. I agree, though, just ship him out asap.

      But he needs to find at least a 2nd team he would go to so that we can get the bidding moving. That’s what’s slowing/stopping this process.

    13. 2FOR18, understands math

      The trade machine says we can deal melo for Kanter (2 years at 17 mil per) and McDermott (1 year, 3 mil).
      Assuming we get a future #1 from OKC, who here says no to that?

    14. plenty

      Hi Zman,

      Yes, but the broader point that was being discussed before that was whether the Knicks FO should use its leverage to threaten to bench Melo should he not expand his NTC options besides Houston. Then there was some back and forth before er defaulted to KP’s quote. The thing is KP’s quote covers his bases – he defers to respecting Melo’s presence, but at the same time acknowledges that the situation is out of his hands. Not sure how much you can really take from a quote like that, I think is what Bruno was trying to say (though i hate to speak for someone else).

      I don’t really care what KP thinks of Carmelo, i just want KP to take the next step this year and last the whole season without a prolonged slump in development or injury. Whether that’s with Melo or without Melo starting, it doesn’t make a difference to me.

    15. stratomatic is despondent

      The trade machine says we can deal melo for Kanter (2 years at 17 mil per) and McDermott (1 year, 3 mil).
      Assuming we get a future #1 from OKC, who here says no to that?

      Kanter is a terrific rebounder and offensive player, but he has a “reputation” for being one of the worst defensive big men in the league. If you play him at C he can’t protect the rim and if you play him at PF he gets killed by the smaller quicker PFs. He’s also supposedly terrible in P&R. Plus we have no use for him.

      The thing that scares me about Hernangomez is that he sometimes reminds me of Kanter a little.

    16. stratomatic is despondent

      Kevin Pelton projects us at 32 wins; 12th in the East; positioned for the #6 pick in the lottery (which I guess wouldn’t be awful); fairly mired in mediocrity.

      The west is brutal, but I think he may be underrating OKC. I would bet that over.

      I also think he’s underrating the Knicks. If we either keep Melo or get 1 decent SF back for him (Harkless?) I think we are going to be a lot better than last year. The east got weaker, NY both got better and has some young players that should be better, and the team lost quite a few games in the last minute or less.

    17. 2FOR18, understands math

      Right, we have no use for Kanter, but the trade meets all of our specs: Contract length not greater than melo’s; getting future #1 pick; we’re not giving up picks or kids.
      I can’t see OKC saying no to that, and I think it’s as good as we’re gonna do.

    18. lavor postell

      The next OKC #1 they can trade is in 2022. If they want to include Ferguson in the deal, that’s something to consider although I didn’t care much for him as a prospect. I’d be interested in Jerami Grant also.

    19. DS

      The trade machine says we can deal melo for Kanter (2 years at 17 mil per) and McDermott (1 year, 3 mil).

      I almost don’t get why it hasn’t happened yet.

      Assuming ‘Melo likes Houston what’s the big difference? While Houston is more of a metropolis than OKC, Houston is no exactly N.Y. or L.A. nor is it much closer to home than OKC.

      ‘Melo is probably tighter with CP3, and perhaps Harden too, than Westbrook and George but that doesn’t seem like a deal stopper either.

      There’s the possibility that OKC wouldn’t do it. Kanter’s contact is pretty good value and they came within a hair of the Finals in 2016 with a lineup that featured Kanter and Adams. But they are on a mission to re-sign George and presumably signing ‘Melo would make the guy happy .

    20. Z-man

      Well, I think we should care what KP thinks, being that the most favorable plan going forward is to build the team around him. The fact that he clearly likes and respects Melo and wants to play with him suggests that keeping Melo around is not the end of the world, and that KP is not worried about his development being hindered by Melo’s presence.

      I’m just glad that the FO is not feeling an outsized urgency to move Melo. If I were them, I’d not even make any more calls and would let other teams come to me. That is, unless Melo waives his NTC further. But laying low might increase the trade value that was diminished by the Phil fiasco.

    21. Totes McGoats

      “Defense magnet”
      That’s right up there with “useage soaker “

      Ha! True true

      The trade machine says we can deal melo for Kanter (2 years at 17 mil per) and McDermott (1 year, 3 mil).
      Assuming we get a future #1 from OKC, who here says no to that?

      It would be tempting, but we already have a better defense Kanter (albeit not by a lot) in Willy, at a fraction of the cost. The way I see the West is- you’re not going to find a defensive structure to stop the Dubs without having a Ben Wallace type and a Kawhi. So you might as well load up on offense and say your Hail Marys in a 7 game series, and may the on fire team win. That said, I wonder if we could convince them to give up Adams. Kanter opens the floor up for Westbrook and co. by virtue of being a very good offensive post threat. And he rebounds very well. Maybe a straight up trade of Melo and KOQ for Adams and McBuckets plus whatever fodder needed to make the salaries match?

      http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ycdkzs9r

      I can’t see OKC goin for it, but hey- a fan can dream, right?

    22. danvt

      The trade machine says we can deal melo for Kanter (2 years at 17 mil per) and McDermott (1 year, 3 mil).
      Assuming we get a future #1 from OKC, who here says no to that?

      I’d do it even without the pick. The problem is that they probably won’t. Melo is pretty unmovable at this point. I’d love to be proven wrong. The only way to get rid of him is to pay. We won’t get paid.

      That’s pretty much Melo in a nutshell. He’s never been actually worth his perceived value with fans or in the media. Would he be great as a third option on a good team? Sure. Would GSW have won in 15-16 if they had him and not Hbarnes? I would imagine.

      But he’s not, nor has he ever been a max player, and he’s got a max deal. Our only hope for a benificial deal is LBJ getting impatient and doing something short sighted. CLE and HOU are waiting for us to buy him out though. It might be pure spite but why make them better?

      Just make peace and let him play, Scotty. He’ll take lots of shots and the team won’t progress but that’s what we signed up for. Let’s collect lottery picks for another couple of seasons and allocate Melo’s number for a playoff run once he’s gone.

    23. Bruno Almeida

      @16

      That’s a pretty precise way to put it, that’s what I was saying.

      I get that Porzingis might hold Anthony to a high standard, but what did you want him to say? He got asked on an interview about a current teammate, a guy who by all accounts is a very nice guy in the locker room / outside the court, and he answered that he loves him but understands that it’s fine if he leaves. This is what Porzingis as a person thinks.

      If he believes having Melo around is good for his development, that’s what he thinks. It might not necessarily be true. Andre Drummond was a pretty damn good player before he started to do what most people in the media said was the “next step” for his development (post scoring), and now he’s just bad efficiency wise and less valuable overall. Management of a team should never pander to who the players like, but what players and what moves are better suited for the team. Hell, this is a franchise who signed the most useless player in recent history because he was JR’s brother.

      That’s why I said I don’t care what Porzingis think about Melo. It is a good sign that he’s fine if Melo stays because that’s a real possibility now, but who players like or dislike should never be taken into consideration on basketball management decisions (unless it’s an extreme situation).

      Like I’ve told er many times, I’m not defending benching Melo out of nowhere; If he refuses to reintegrate the roster and wants to be traded still, bench him. If he’s not performing and there are better options on the roster, bench him. If KP gets pissed because of it, he’s wrong. He should first focus on his development and actually becoming a star before getting pissed at management moves.

    24. KnickfaninNJ

      Every analyst I’ve listened to now seems to say we blew it by picking Ntilikina instead of Smith, because we must have picked Ntilikina because he’s better for the triangle. I think it’s mostly because they havent seen him play and they have seen Smith play and because the Knicks are so much a figure of ridicule around the league, it’s assumed management does things for the wrong reasons. But before the draft, Ntilikina was ranked as high as Smith in many draft analyses. And the Knicks recent picks, KP and Willy arent specially good for the triangle, so the Knicks dont seem to actuallt draft on that basis. So i think its more fair to assume the Knicks went for the best player available.

    25. Z-man

      Re: Frank vs. Smith Jr. it doesn’t really matter now. Everyone is pretty much on the record and the only thing left to do is wait until preseason to reassess.

      One thing that bugged me a bit is that they wouldn’t play Frank in that last summer league game. If all he had was a knee bruise (which hurts but is not a structural problem) then he should have been able to play in the last 2 games. I think it’s possible (unlikely but possible) that the FO saw that he was crazy green and did not want him to be judged prematurely and copped out behind the injury.

    26. Brian Cronin

      What is particular silly about it is that NBA pundits, in general, put more thought into this in the past. When Tim Hardaway Jr had a decent rookie season, no one in the NBA said, “Hey, Milwaukee, why didn’t you pick Hardaway over Giannis?” Because it was clear at the time that Giannis was likely going to eventually be good.

      And yet Ntilikina is expected to be good right away.

      That, of course, is not even getting into the absurdity of Smith getting credit for playing in Summer League while Ntilikina sat out.

    27. Totes McGoats

      And the Knicks recent picks, KP and Willy arent specially good for the triangle, so the Knicks dont seem to actuallt draft on that basis. So i think its more fair to assume the Knicks went for the best player available.

      I think KP was drafted with the idea of him becoming a Center in the triangle. Willy was more of a flier…a stroke of genius level luck. But he too was picked because of how his skillset fits in the triangle. Willy would be your traditional C in that offense. One who scores and rebounds well enough while being a high IQ player who understands positioning and passes well. KP is more like your “this kid can be a supernova if we develop him properly as a center in the triangle” type.

    28. Z-man

      The really absurd thing is that the Knicks balked on playing in Vegas (thanks, Phil!) But why is it absurd to give a guy credit for playing well enough in the summer league to support the idea that he’s eventually gonna be good?

    29. Z-man

      Again, the most important prerequisite for being good in the triangle is a high basketball IQ. That translates to any offensive system. Very few if any players that are suited for the triangle would not be successful in other offensive systems with the right coaching approach. (e.g. not playing Willy at the 4 in a small-ball lineup)

    30. kevin5318

      I preferred Smith Jr but we shouldn’t even judge the pick on this years performance. Smith already has an NBA ready body and Frank might need a few years to put on weight like KP.

      The funny thing about analysts blasting us for the pick is the fact that Dallas hired Franks coach to lead their summer league team. Also their billionaire owner flew out to Italy just to meet Frank so don’t believe for one second that Dallas preferred Smith over Frank.

    31. DS

      But why is it absurd to give a guy credit for playing well enough in the summer league to support the idea that he’s eventually gonna be good?

      I wouldn’t call it “absurd,” but playing well in the Summer League is akin to playing well in a pickup game. It could be a demonstration of skills that will translate well to the NBA, but it also could be a demonstration of a set of skills that won’t.

    32. Bruno Almeida

      Because people aren’t really giving Smith Jr credit, they’re just bashing the Knicks for making “the wrong pick”, if I understood what Brian is saying.

      And summer league is just terrible competition, it’s a glorified pick up game. It’s like watching a dude destroy at Rucker Park, it means very little.

    33. plenty

      Yeah, I’m alright with having Melo on the team come November. And I can buy having Carmelo still on the team helping Porzie in a way, but as you so wisely put Zman – at this point letting the teams come to the Knicks FO for a Melo deal is a good idea. All i’m saying is that having more leverage in the effort to trade Carmelo* can help other teams come to us, because it would be known that Carmelo now is open to other teams than only Houston.

      *(It doesn’t even have to be a benching threat necessarily that makes this happen, it can be a rumored “reduced minutes plan” or something, but it’s an effective means to an end in helping Melo realize his best path forward is on another team)

    34. lavor postell

      It’s absurd when you’re declaring anybody the steal of the draft because of how they performed over the course of 5 glorified pickup games. The format is perfect for guys like DSJ who’s predominant skills are shot creation and scoring. It says nothing about your ability to run an offense, play within a team concept or defend in any capacity.

      DSJ is a very good prospect. This was known before the draft and yet 7 other teams aside from the Knicks passed on him. He’s not the 2nd coming and similarly Frank isn’t a bust because he didn’t play in fucking Summer League.

      Steph Curry sucked ass in Summer League. How’d he turn out? The reality is that because of the rising popularity of the league and competition for year round clicks, be it articles or podcasts, it leads to an overanalysis of something that has some importance, but pales in comparison to the film study and scouting teams do on players for years leading up to the draft.

      I mean the fucking Dunc’d On guys had 2 separate 2+ hour podcasts analyzing how the prospects all performed in Summer League. That they did that and people listen to it like it’s a worthwhile exercise is asinine.

      Probably the one thing that is worth paying attention to in SL is how guys shoot in adjusting to the more distant 3 point line. Seeing that from Dotson was the biggest thing I took out of the 5 games the Knicks played. That and the fact that he had a better handle than alleged point guard, Chasson Randle.

    35. er

      Like I’ve told er many times, I’m not defending benching Melo out of nowhere; If he refuses to reintegrate the roster and wants to be traded still, bench him. If he’s not performing and there are better options on the roster, bench him. If KP gets pissed because of it, he’s wrong. He should first focus on his development and actually becoming a star before getting pissed at management moves.

      Oh then this is fine. I was just talking about for not waiving the NTC. Sorry if I missed that before.

    36. plenty

      As far as Frank vs Smith Jr – We’ve sorely needed an authoritative defensive presence on the team. Inasmuch as the rest of the league seems to be emphasizing offense, there’s nothing wrong with zagging when everyone is zigging. Given that our recent teams have had more problems stopping points than scoring points, i liked the pick. Which one will be the better player? Could be apples vs oranges but i do think Frank’s bball skills are more fluid and malleable than Smiths. Also the knee injury isn’t great.

    37. DS

      P-Jax did do a nice job with the Porzingis pick. You’ll recall it was not a slam dunk at the time. I think that bodes well for Frank too.

    38. Bruno Almeida

      It will be a season of overreaction, everytime Smith has a good game and everytime Frank has a turnover it will be a “clear indication” of the mistake. All I want the Knicks fan base to understand is that the pick was made with the future in mind. I’m sure Phil Jackson or whoever made the final decision was quite aware that Smith would probably be more impactful right away. The idea behind the pick was correct anyway.

    39. chrisk06811

      I’m starting to feel like having Melo on the team is a big distraction mostly to us. This year our coach actually has the freedom to coach his way, no triangle, no Phil at practice, no bull shit. Give him a chance to handle it.

    40. DS

      I’m starting to feel like having Melo on the team is a big distraction mostly to us. This year our coach actually has the freedom to coach his way, no triangle, no Phil at practice, no bull shit. Give him a chance to handle it.

      Team goals should be developing young players and acquiring high draft picks. How can he be a good fit?

    41. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      The first time DSJr and Frank play will be a very interesting game. I think Frank is going to outplay Sessions from the beginning so long as Frank can bring the ball up court because he’s going to be a much better defender from the beginning (and Sessions has never started more than 38 games in a season). The funny thing about Frank is he is a shooting guard offensively but has the ability to handle and run an offense. I think the Knicks will eventually go furthest with Frank as a two, TH2 in that Shump/Ronnie Brewer role, Willy at the 5 and KP at the 4.

      It’s not likely we land Kyrie Irving in a trade and I think the Knicks eventually move on from Melo and get young assets. I’m fully expecting us to end up with Trevon Duval in the draft next year after another 30 win season. Can you imagine having a 6’3″ point guard with a 6’9″ wingspan and a 6’6″ shooting guard with a 7 foot wingspan on defense?

    42. djphan

      summer league shouldn’t entirely be dismissed…. it specifically shows some value for younger prospects…. i think hollinger or pelton did some work on the value of summer league and projections… and there is some correlation if you perform badly in summer league and then being a bust… and there’s some correlation altho weaker when you put up good volume numbers… efficiency doesn’t matter….

      basically the gist is… if you can’t hang with end of the roster types in any environment… you’re not going to hang at the highest level of play… and if you’re really good.. it’s going to be pretty clear in some fashion…

      and this harps on the larger theme about evaluating prospects…. how good you will become is informed in large part by how good you already are… for pg prospects it’s less true but you can’t perform like kris dunn did and then become an all star…. so frank is going to need to at least show he’s rotation ready if even for only ~800-1000 minutes…

    43. chrisk06811

      DS, i’m not saying having Melo on the team fits our goals. but neither does having Ryan Anderson or Myers Leonard or anyone like that.

      I hate to use “ownership” here, because the ultra shitty-ness of our situation there is the 1 thing we can all agree upon. But, I think team goals include filling the seats and being competitive. It’s hard to find an example, other than Philly, where a team deliberately entered a season with the intention to tank.

    44. geo

      hmmmm, 32 win projection for next season – our 4th consecutive 50 loss season…

      sadly, that sounds about right…doesn’t even seem to be the same kind of “ifs” this year (as opposed to last) in regard to having a better record than that…

      at the very least, hopefully we don’t have to watch melo play and can root for a young team which tries to play together and puts in a better effort on defense…

      as a coach, i felt horny was pretty underwhelming (nice guy though)…if he can somehow kick melo off the bottom of his shoe – it will be interesting to see the team’s personality develop…

    45. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      The best thing about Duval is that he’s in a draft where Bamba, Ayton, Porter Jr, Doncic, and possibly Bagley will be available. Colin Sexton is also playing for Alabama so he will have a lot of opportunity to take shots and dominate a weak SEC, and then Miles Bridges could have a big tournament. I could see a situation where Trevon Duval, who was born in Queens, goes around 6th to the New York Knicks.

    46. DS

      Steph Curry sucked ass in Summer League. How’d he turn out?

      Lavor, I looked this up because I thought it was interesting. He didn’t exactly suck ass averaging 17 and 4 but he DID play third fiddle to Anthony Randolph (man, I had so much hope for him) and Anthony Morrow.

    47. DS

      @47 – ChrisK – No, not not many teams set out to tank. But teams do divest themselves of stars in favor of a youth movement, the result of which, is tanking. I agree that taking on an extra year of Ryan Anderson’s contract to accomplish this may not be worth it.

      @48 – Totally agree!

    48. kevin5318

      SL is good for seeing translatable skills to the big leagues. For example Dotson showed he can shoot with range and with a defender in his face. He also showed a solid nose for rebounds and fought through screens well for a young guy.

    49. Brian Cronin

      I don’t think the Summer League is useless. I’ve long believed that it is a great determining point between whether you’re an NBA ready player or not. That is, if you can’t hack it in Summer League, you probably suck. The ones who succeed might not be great players either, but if you suck in Summer League, you’re probably not a good player. That said, my point vis a vis Summer League and Smith/Frank is not that Smith is getting credit for playing well in Summer League, but rather that he is getting credit for playing in Summer League period, while Frank did not.

      In other words, if Smith did the exact same thing he did this year but Frank played and played even decently, you wouldn’t be seeing the stories that you’re seeing, but because Smith played and Frank did not, then it is like it is open season on the Smith/Frank thing, when literally nothing changed about Frank! The guy just didn’t play! How could you suddenly think differently regarding Smith and Frank based on Smith playing games that Frank did not? And yet that’s exactly what happened.

    50. er

      Smith will score more points and Frank will win more games.

      lol. ok. This is a great deal of projecting

    51. er

      Brian Cronin
      August 3, 2017 at 1:53 pm
      I don’t think the Summer League is useless. I’ve long believed that it is a great determining point between whether you’re an NBA ready player or not. That is, if you can’t hack it in Summer League, you probably suck. The ones who succeed might not be great players either, but if you suck in Summer League, you’re probably not a good player. That said, my point vis a vis Summer League and Smith/Frank is not that Smith is getting credit for playing well in Summer League, but rather that he is getting credit for playing in Summer League period, while Frank did not.
      In other words, if Smith did the exact same thing he did this year but Frank played and played even decently, you wouldn’t be seeing the stories that you’re seeing, but because Smith played and Frank did not, then it is like it is open season on the Smith/Frank thing, when literally nothing changed about Frank! The guy just didn’t play! How could you suddenly think differently regarding Smith and Frank based on Smith playing games that Frank did not? And yet that’s exactly what happened.

      Its a story cuz Frank is a Knick

    52. latke

      @chrisk06811

      Meyers Leonard or Ryan Anderson do not have big brands and mass followings. You could send Ryan Anderson to work on a prison farm in Siberia, and no one would bat an eye, but if you cut Melo’s minutes and he gets upset, suddenly you’ll have a media shitstorm.

      In other words, Melo has influence, and he will use that influence to his own benefit, which will often be to the team’s detriment. There are only two outcomes I see here:

      1) THe team subtly favors short term wins over player development to accommodate Melo, not just in terms of minutes but in terms of play style (dump it into Melo!) and potential trades (what are the PR consequences from Melo if we traded Lee?).

      2) The team plays hardball with Melo and dramatically lowers his minutes, and Melo makes noise about it, causing a distraction.

      There’s also the real possibility that Melo just sucks this year, at which point you won’t be able to trade him.

      And what is the upside of Melo vs. Anderson or Leonard? I guess salary wise, Melo’s contract ends sooner, but it’s also for a lot more money per year. My guess is you could probably pull off a trade at least with Anderson that was similar to the Crabbe trade where you take back a shorter contract of a more overpaid player like Asik if you really need cap space in summer 2019.

    53. danvt

      @40 I agree and this gives me faith in the pick. Drafting is something we’ve actually been pretty good at.

      People taking shots at Frank seem xenophobic. Like, even in 2017 with all the evidence to the contrary we assume that Euros are soft, etc.

      Stylistically, should we really favor a shoot first pg with no history of team success because he makes a few smooth shots in a summer league game?

      Typical mainstream media bs. I’m looking forward to watching Frank play. He represents our best chance to progress as an organization.

    54. stratomatic is despondent

      Every analyst I’ve listened to now seems to say we blew it by picking Ntilikina instead of Smith, because we must have picked Ntilikina because he’s better for the triangle.

      It’s what I keep saying.

      A lot of people in the media hate NY and the Knicks. No matter what the Knicks do, they will immediately start looking for a negative spin. Some may do it on purpose because they have an agenda. Others may not be aware their own negative feelings are getting in the way of objective analysis. Some are just not competent enough to do a decent analysis. But whatever the case may be, you have to ignore them and try not to let them impact your own thinking. That’s how propaganda works. If everyone in the media is saying the same thing, people more or less just go along and assume it must be true.

      I’d be willing to bet that if we drafted Smith, we would have seen endless articles about how the Knicks were gambling their future on a kid with a severe prior knee injury without much of a record of winning.

      Frank is going to be very good. He can defend and shoot really well. We just may need to be patient.

    55. Hubert

      Kevin Pelton projects us at 32 wins; 12th in the East; positioned for the #6 pick in the lottery (which I guess wouldn’t be awful); fairly mired in mediocrity.

      Interestingly, his model favors Frank N. over Sessions.

      http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20225286/projected-records-win-totals-standings-every-nba-team-2017-18-season

      I’m assuming he has Melo playing for us in that projection. If we get rid of him, we should drop a little (probably not much).

      Let’s look at the bottom and play a little over/under:

      Det – 35.1
      Phi – 33.2
      LA – 33.0
      Orl – 32.2
      NY – 32.0
      Phoenix – 30.3
      Brooklyn – 29.5
      Chicago – 28.5
      Sacramento – 27.4
      Atlanta – 27.o

      I think we’ll go under 32. I think Brooklyn, Atlanta, and Sacramento will go over their respective totals. LA, Phoenix, Orlando all strike me as good bets to underperform their projections.

      I think we’re a lot like this year: outside the worst 2 teams, but anywhere in the range of 3-6.

    56. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Philly – over
      Sacramento – over, over, over
      LA – under
      Orlando – under
      BK – over
      Chicago – under
      NYK – under, all our PGs are going to be replacement level, probably
      Atlanta – over

      I’ll peg us at 30 wins and a #4-5 pick (which means we have a real shot at Doncic–who is currently slated at #2 on DX and #4 on NBAdraft), with the added prediction that BK will have the better record than we do. One of KP or Willy will make a leap, however.

    57. DS

      Nothing like looking at the 2018 Mock Draft and seeing the #1 seeded Celtics — fresh off signing Gordon Hayward and taking the #3 pick in this year’s draft — in position to get Porter and Doncic. :)

    58. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      A Frank Doncic backcourt would be a dream come true. They match each other perfectly–Doncic can orchestrate the offense from the wing a la Harden or Jordan, and Frank can concentrate on playing off ball and defending the better offensive player, given Doncic’s somewhat limited lateral mobility. We could run our own version of Bev/Harden

      I think if Doncic drops even a spot or two it’s a real possibility that we get him, especially because teams get afflicted with recency bias in favor of American players come draft time

    59. DRed

      If Lin stays reasonably healthy the Nets are going to have a very fun 3 ball bombing offense that may surprise some people.

    60. Grocer

      Assuming ‘Melo likes Houston what’s the big difference

      Other than Houston having a massive edge in culture, size, ect? OKC is dead center tornado alley. It averages over an earthquake a day. Seriously, they had like 600 earthquakes over magnitude 3 in 2016. OKC is also very conservative politically compared to Houston. And maybe Melo doesn’t like Westbrook. But those earthquakes though. Smh.

    61. Grocer

      The ones who succeed might not be great players either, but if you suck in Summer League, you’re probably not a good player.

      I always figured the point of summer league was to see how guys played without teammates they knew well and outside of a heavily coached environment. To see them perform outside of their specific college program. Smith did well but that doesn’t really mean much, it would have meant a lot if he didn’t. I think SL isn’t about the top prospects anyway, it’s about the second rounders and UDFAs. If a guy plays 4 years in a particular system, heavily coached ect, you’ve got to get them out of that comfort zone to see if there’s anything there. Usually, there’s not.

    62. TheOakmanCometh

      People are quick to forget why DSJ dropped to the ninth pick. On a talent basis, he was widely considered the #3-6 prospect in the draft. He dropped because he displayed a bad attitude, erratic effort, and led a bad team.

      It’s revisionist history to now say the Knicks made a huge mistake by passing on him. Let’s see how he reacts when Carlisle benches him for half-assing it on defense. Let’s see if he’s putting up big stat lines while the Mavs mysteriously underperform every year.

    63. Grocer

      Seriously, Houston had zero earthquakes in the past year (M1.5 or greater). OKC had 1,387. The mystery isn’t why Durant left, the mystery is why everyone doesn’t leave. It’s one of the absolutely shittiest places on the planet.

    64. djphan

      why would it be revisionists history? smith was one of the best prospects in the draft by almost every measure….

    65. Jack Bauer

      @68 you might be right. Then again if DSJ is killing it by the all star game, which is also possible, it might look like a bad decision depending on how Frank is doing. We’ll know soon enough, but Smith was one of the highly rated players in this year’s draft, that is a fact. Good players to slip every year.

    66. chrisk06811

      latke, I don’t think the only 2 choices are we continue w/ the same old, Melo dominant offense, or we dramatically lower his minutes.

      What if coach cuts his minutes from 34 / game (which was way too much) to 28, and shifts some of the focus of the offense to the younger players? why isn’t that a real offense?

      If Melo is gone or hardly plays, KP is going to be constantly doubled and pushed around because we have no other legit scoring threats. is that really in the best interest of his development, after he hit the wall the last two years? Melo still gets doubled…..that should mean open shots for others. If he can just be convinced to do that thing where you give the ball to someone else.

    67. Hubert

      Nothing like looking at the 2018 Mock Draft and seeing the #1 seeded Celtics — fresh off signing Gordon Hayward and taking the #3 pick in this year’s draft — in position to get Porter and Doncic. :)

      ….

      If Lin stays reasonably healthy the Nets are going to have a very fun 3 ball bombing offense that may surprise some people.

      I agree with that second DRed quote.

      I think the Celtics are done reaping top 5 picks from the Nets. They’ll still get a nice pick in the 10-14 range, but I think the Nets are going to compete for a playoff spot this year. I certainly like them better than us.

    68. TheOakmanCometh

      @71

      Absolutely. My point is that we don’t know anything yet. DSJ was always considered more talented than Frank, but he had all these intangible negatives that knocked him down. Yet people are now saying, “Smith is more talented than Frank, therefore the Knicks are dumb.” Well, let’s wait and see how those intangibles play out first.

      If Smith is a good teammate, a good soldier, and a good player, then he’s probably better than Frank. If he’s moody and lackadaisical like he was in college, that’s a problem.

      This is to say nothing of the risk that comes with DSJ’s surgically-repaired knee.

    69. johnnyhoops

      I watched Smith play games last season where I literally thought he was injured or in a coma on defense. Frank would never play that way. I’m satisfied with our pick.

    70. TheOakmanCometh

      The last thing this franchise needs is a me-first ball-dominator with a bad attitude. That’s why Frank was the right pick even if his ceiling is a little lower than DSJ’s.

    71. rama in the JING

      This is to say nothing of the risk that comes with DSJ’s surgically-repaired knee.

      Exactly. We can’t even begin to judge DSjr vs. Frank for three years. Let’s see if Dennis’s knee holds up. Let’s see if he plays any defense. Let’s see if his team wins or if, like Rose, he is a net negative.

      As well, let’s see if Frank can run an offense. Let’s see if his D is what it’s been purported to be. Let’s see if he shoots the 3 consistently or not.

      A ton of questions, none of which can be answered even after one year. We’ll know whether it was a good draft choice in 2020.

    72. Hubert

      Seriously, Houston had zero earthquakes in the past year (M1.5 or greater). OKC had 1,387.

      Are you seriously still using earthquakes per year ?

      A player doesn’t spend every minute of the year in the town he plays in. You have to break it down by minutes resided. Use EQ/48.

    73. er

      but I think the Nets are going to compete for a playoff spot this year. I certainly like them better than us.

      Can you do some analysis if you don’t mind?

    74. fmikieo

      If/when Melo gets moved, the Knicks will have upgraded the defense at the 1-3 positions. Don’t be surprised if they become a surprising GOOD defensive team this season.

      Folks forget that 2 years ago with Melo, Calderon, Afflalo in the starting lineup, the Knicks were one of the better defensive teams in the league.

    75. Brian Cronin

      If Lin stays reasonably healthy the Nets are going to have a very fun 3 ball bombing offense that may surprise some people.

      What do you think the Nets starting lineup will be? Will Lin and Russell start together in the backcourt? Or will one of them come off of the bench ?

      I could see them going with:

      Lin
      Russell
      Crabbe
      Hollis-Jefferson
      Mozgov

      to start the game. I think LaVert and RHJ are going to have be small ball fours this year.

    76. Totes McGoats

      Question for ya’ll…
      What if Hornacek manages to coax 44-47 wins employing a run & gun offense and a pressure defense- sorta like college ball. Then suddenly Carlisle becomes available after Cuban decides to go full rebuild and decides Carlisle is too old school for a youth movement. Should we stick with Hornacek or pounce on Carlisle?

      Not that I think it would happen, but Dallas is probably going to be bad enough this season for Cuban to consider going for an all out rebuild. Shit, the West is looking extra scary with the likes of GS, San Antonio, and Houston- with Portland, Minnesota, and Denver on the come up. Add the fact that the Clips will probably stiil be good, OKC adding George to a surprisingly good team, the Pelicans expected to be better, and the Jazz still hanging in there even without Hayward- the Mavs now appear to be at the bottom looking up along with Phoenix, the Lakers, Memphis, and Sacramento. But Memphis is well coached and still has Gasol & Conley so you can’t count them out. Sacramento had a great offseason so they may surprise. And if Lonzo Ball can be half of what Jason Kidd was, the Lakers are gonna be a tough out. The West is loaded….it’s so unfair lol

    77. er

      Lin
      Russell
      Crabbe
      Hollis-Jefferson
      Mozgov
      to start the game. I think LaVert and RHJ are going to have be small ball fours this year.

      is that better than

      Frank
      Lee
      THJR
      Melo
      KP

      or
      Frank
      Thjr
      Lance
      KP
      Willy

      I don’t see in what world it would be

    78. Hubert

      Can you do some analysis if you don’t mind?

      I like their offseason moves, I can see Russell getting better, and they’re going to be able to shoot the lights out sometimes. I think they can get to 35 wins with that roster.

      I think LaVert and RHJ are going to have be small ball fours this year.

      They might be 5s on this team! They’re going to have some crazy lineups where 5 of Lin, Russell, Carroll, LeVert, Hollis-Jefferson, Crabbe are on the court at the same time.

    79. DRed

      Lin-Crabbe-LaVert is a perfectly cromnulent set of smalls. They don’t have anyone who is actually good, but they have a bunch of averagish dudes. I guess it depends who they chose to play.

    80. Brian Cronin

      Yeah, LaVert, in particular, is a guy who will play all over the court. If Carroll is anything but dead weight, that would help, as well.

    81. Brian Cronin

      What if Hornacek manages to coax 44-47 wins employing a run & gun offense and a pressure defense- sorta like college ball. Then suddenly Carlisle becomes available after Cuban decides to go full rebuild and decides Carlisle is too old school for a youth movement. Should we stick with Hornacek or pounce on Carlisle?

      There are few coaches that you wouldn’t fire to hire Rick Carlisle. Hornacek is not one of them.

    82. stratomatic is despondent

      IF KP/WH make some progress, THJ plays like he did in Atlanta last year , we either have Melo back or get someone like Harkless at SF, and Sessions is healthy, we are a threat to make the playoffs in the east.

      We won 31 games last year, but we gave away a lot more games in the last few seconds than we won. If we just split those games this year it’s a few extra wins.

      I’m not even giving us any credit for Frank/Damyean being productive, Baker shooting a little better, someone telling Kuz that playing defense is not illegal in the US, or Noah actually being healthy and in shape for 30 games.

      What are we losing from last year Rose?

      Big deal.

      It’s not like I’m wildly optimistic, but I think we have a better team now than last year and the east got worse.

    83. DRed

      We may be worse at PG, if Sessions repeats last season, Frank isn’t ready and Baker still can’t shoot. But you can cook up some pretty plausible scenarios where we’re better. Timmy is probably a small improvement over Holliday, and the kids ahould be better. So if Melo plays pretty much like he did last year, yeah, this team could improve

    84. stratomatic is despondent

      I agree 100%. The question mark in my scenario is Sessions. He was bad last year and he was hurt. If he’s that bad or worse and we are starting Baker (and he’s the same) or we start Frank (and he’s far from ready), then we are in trouble. Where’s Toney Douglas? lol

    85. Bruno Almeida

      32 wins… Im taking the under (if Melo is traded). Every season people talk themselves into the over because of all bad things that happened last season and all good things that might happen this year. Unfortunately I see the good things that happened last year and the bad things that can happen this year.

      The Knicks were pretty healthy last season, aside from Noah obviously and ~20 games without Porzingis and Rose and the Knicks had some flukey wins against superior teams to counteract the close games they lost. Since I don’t buy that every young player will actually develop, and I think THJ in place of last year Melo won’t be a net positive, there’s no way I take the over.

      Before I get quoted, it’s obvious that Id rather every young player becomes a star and the Knicks are set for the next decade.

      If Melo stays and wants to play, I think this team can get in the 32-36 wins

    86. djphan

      our pythagorean record was exactly the same as our actual record…. the only reasonable outperformance we can expect is through KP or wily which is very possible… but it’s as likely as the rest of the roster disappointing….

      low 30s is pretty accurate…

    87. Brian Cronin

      Damn, djphan beat me the pythag aspect of last year. The Knicks weren’t an unlucky team. They were a super lucky team that then had a bunch of bad luck to balance out the good luck they had earlier in the year. In other words, they pretty much were as good as their record. They then likely got worse at point guard and possibly improved at their other shooting guard. They easily could improve over last year’s win totals, but it’s unlikely to be a significant improvement.

    88. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      Guys if Jeff Hornacek gets fired there is only one man who will get the job.

    89. danvt

      the only reasonable outperformance we can expect is through KP or wily which is very possible

      We picked Frank Ntilikina with the 8th pick in the draft to be our PG. Why are people are assuming he’ll be a non factor? Why are people assuming he’ll be only minor league level and that he’s a couple of years away from making a difference for us? If this is all true, yes we win 32 games again, but maybe he’ll be really good and ready now. Furthermore, if we really made this pick thinking he would be a non factor this year I would have wanted DSJR or someone else. I know we’re building for the future but a lottery pick should become a good rotation player pretty quickly or you whiffed.

      As I recall people were undervaluing KP6 the summer before he started too.

      Let’s hope this kid is a revelation and pushes us to .500. He’s the x factor along with the development of KP and Wily.

    90. Brian Cronin

      I know we’re building for the future but a lottery pick should become a good rotation player pretty quickly or you whiffed.

      Rookie point guards are rarely good players in year one. The list of rookie point guards picked in the lottery who performed better than league average as rookies is very small. Chris Paul was a major exception.

    91. johnnyhoops

      But Frank plays defense. That should be a transferable skill for a guy with his length.

      We’re also possibly undervaluing Dotson who likewise has a transferable skill.

      Add a pinch more of Willy and a smidgen more of Baker and KP as the main protein and we can be a considerably better tasting casserole.

      Plus I’m not even factoring in postPhilMelo or acquiring someone like Harkness to take his place as our dessert.

      I’m getting hungry so I’ve got to go now.

    92. Z-man

      Projecting the Knicks is useless because there is so much uncertainty.
      No one knows whether Melo will be here or not, or if he is traded, who the Knicks get in return.
      No one knows whether KP will make a major jump from a league-average player to a star.
      No one knows whether newer players like Willy, Kuz, Baker, and Ron will improve.
      No one knows what Dotson and Frank will contribute.
      No one knows whether TH2 will continue improving.
      No one knows whether Sessions will play like he did before last year.
      No one knows whether Noah will be a contributor.
      No one knows what style of ball they will play.

      The only predictable things about the Knicks is that Lance, O’Quinn and Lee will play like they generally have over recent years.

    93. Ntilakilla

      I watched Smith play games last season where I literally thought he was injured or in a coma on defense. Frank would never play that way. I’m satisfied with our pick.

      Here is the problem – people don’t really watch basketball. They either scout the box score (points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks) or instead look at where the ball is going without any concept of everything happening around it. Dennis Smith is the kind of guy who will fill up a boxscore by pure usage and field goal attempts but won’t do the little things off the ball which successful teammates do for their teams. So people will look at his production and say “pointz!” like the dummies who actually think Derrick Rose or Carmelo Anthony had All Star caliber seasons this year despite their complete lack of defensive effort or offensive efficiency.

      Unfortunately for Frank’s hype train, he is the opposite type player. The guy was a legitimate piece on a playoff team that made it to the last game of the French League championships despite playing against players who were far more professionally and physically developed. Why? Because he was their best backcourt defender and played efficiently enough in the limited offensive role he was given. But since the ESPN crowd doesn’t watch basketball to see a guy actually fight hard over a screen, hustle to put a hand in a shooter’s face, or pass up a contested shot to a teammate with a higher percentage opportunity they won’t care that Frank has a superior team game to Smith. They will watch Smith almost make a low percentage dunk over a defender and post it on Instagram with some stupid OMG comment.

    94. Ben R

      I don’t have much faith in Frank. It’s not because he’s European but because he played in a third tier European league. He wasn’t a role player in the ACB or Euroleague or even in the Eurocup but a role player in the French league. Hopefully he will develop but NBA quality players in third tier leagues dominate, look at Jorts in China.

      He definitely has defensive upside but to expect him to be a good defender right out of gate is premature. He doesn’t have the strength or experience to be able to check players that are faster and stronger than anyone he has ever played against.

      Long term I am cautiously optimistic that Frank will develop into a nice role player as a 3 and d guard but starting PG in a PG dominated league I seriously doubt.

    95. 2FOR18, understands math

      I don’t understand where Hardaway is going to get his minutes, much less Dotson. Lee is going to get his 30+ minutes and Lance is backing up melo. Plus Hardaway doesn’t rebound enough to play the 3

    96. Ntilakilla

      Hopefully he will develop but NBA quality players in third tier leagues dominate, look at Jorts in China.

      You do know Tony Parker, Rudy Golbert, and Nick Batum are from the same “third tier” league, don’t you?

    97. 2FOR18, understands math

      If Frank is ready to contribute, that means Baker and his guaranteed 9mil won’t be part of the rotation. That is knicksy.

    98. Bruno Almeida

      Jorts also went to the Chinese league when he was 24, not 16.

      I would argue over the general level of the leagues but I’m honestly tired of the anti-European league bias. Ok, the French league is worse than the MVC whatever let’s move on.

    99. DRed

      Dennis Smith is the kind of guy who will fill up a boxscore by pure usage and field goal attempts but won’t do the little things off the ball which successful teammates do for their teams.

      Nah, that’s not true. He definitely has flaws, and some of them probably don’t show up in the boxscore, but he was not a middling efficiency chucker in college

    100. Bruno Almeida

      He was middling efficiency, that part is definitely true, but he did bring other stuff to the table in terms of running a team.

    101. Ben R

      I like European players and the ACB and Euroleague is superior to the NCAA division 1 but the French league is not and at best it is equivalent. But that wouldn’t matter if Ntilikina put up great numbers but he didn’t. In the French league he averaged 3.1 assists per 40 in the playoffs he raised it to 4.7 per 40 which would be promising if his turnovers didn’t almost double to 3.3 per 40.

      His steals and rebounds were solid but he did foul a lot, 5 per 40 in the french league, and his scoring numbers are totally pedestrian.

      If you start looking deeper at a true top tier prospect like KP or Jokic their numbers look better the harder you look. Ntilikina looks a lot like the busts that put up mediocre numbers and then impressed with their length or athleticism or diverse skillset and got drafted on potential. Is there a single lottery pick European player that had mediocre to bad numbers in Europe and then became a good NBA player? That’s a real question because I don’t know. Giannis is the closest, not lottery but close, but he had truly otherworldly physical gifts and devloped past his poor numbers.

    102. stratomatic is despondent

      For the last 2 years I’ve been screaming “Under”. I was right both times. I made a significant bet the prior year, but held back last year out of fear KP might take a huge step forward and eek out the over. If the Under/Over is 31 games next year, I’m betting the Over.

    103. stratomatic is despondent

      I don’t understand where Hardaway is going to get his minutes, much less Dotson. Lee is going to get his 30+ minutes and Lance is backing up melo. Plus Hardaway doesn’t rebound enough to play the 3

      We aren’t done yet.

      If we trade Melo and get back a SF like Harkless, then either Harkless comes off the bench and we play THJ and Lee together or we probably wind up trading Lee.

      If we trade Melo and get don’t back a SF, we are going to play a lot of small ball with THJ at SF. He’s not a good rebounder relative to the typical SF, but he will probably do better in that role than he typically does at SG.

      If we don’t trade Melo, then we will probably trade Lee.

    104. Bruno Almeida

      Another question then: how many European players were drafted when they were 18? Nikoloz Tskitishvili is the only one I could remember.

      When Porzingis was 18 he played 6 minutes per game in Spain. If Frank had stayed in Europe for 3 more years for example he would be the same age Pau Gasol was when he came to te NBA, his Strasbourg contract would run out and he surely would get plenty of offers from the Euro top leagues.

    105. stratomatic is despondent

      our pythagorean record was exactly the same as our actual record…

      A teams SRS and actual record are measuring what actually happened. So they should be in sync. They are not considering the probability of what happened actually happening. You can have lucky or unlucky years that impact both.

    106. djphan

      giannis was aided by a rather large growth spurt…. you give any averagish player a few extra inches in height at 18-19 they will almost certainly be way better….

      also efficiency means jack when judging prospects…. you don’t want someone who’s low usage and efficient in college… they’ll be even less usage and way less efficient in the pros…. this is proven… even guys like steve novak did not play like steve novak in college…. he avg’ed 17 a game…

    107. Ben R

      @114

      Porzingis was just under a year older than Frank when he was drafted. In the season before his last season in Spain, his age 18 year, he averaged 15 minutes per game, not 6, and still averaged per 40: 18 pts and 7.5 rebs with 1.5 stls and 2 blks.

      Jokic in his age 18 year averaged 25 minutes per game and per 40: 18 pts 10 rebs 3 asts

    108. Ntilakilla

      I like European players and the ACB and Euroleague is superior to the NCAA division 1 but the French league is not and at best it is equivalent.

      Fran Fraschilla disagrees with you and he is paid to watch/analyze NCAA and Euroleague basketball players.

      But that wouldn’t matter if Ntilikina put up great numbers but he didn’t.

      He put up above average metrics for his league.

    109. Ntilakilla

      also efficiency means jack when judging prospects…. you don’t want someone who’s low usage and efficient in college… they’ll be even less usage and way less efficient in the pros…. this is proven… even guys like steve novak did not play like steve novak in college…. he avg’ed 17 a game…

      By the same token, being a low usage 18 year old in college where the age range is 18-23 is a different thing than being a low usage 18 year old in a professional league where the age range is around 18-33 and younger players aren’t guaranteed to start.

    110. DRed

      Nobody knows how any prospect is going to develop-the best you can do is take well educated guesses. With Frank, there’s not a whole lot to go on. He didn’t play that many minutes, he didn’t shoot very often, etc, we don’t have examples of guys at his age from his league coming to the NBA and he wasn’t playing the position we’re planning on trying him at in the NBA.

    111. Bruno Almeida

      @117

      Jokic is not an apt comparison, he was already a monster in Europe and is an unquestionable superstar today.

      I miscalculated Porzingis age, yeah… The point still stands. You’re looking for the sort of production out of an European 18 year old that is incredibly rare for guys of this age in professional leagues, specially a kid who’s biggest talent won’t show up in stats, defense. KP had an .518 efg% for example in the year you mentioned, while Frank had a .569 due to shooting much better from 3. Does that not matter?

      All I’m saying again is to chill, the kid is incredibly young and there’s not even close to a reliable track record to get desperate about his stats in France or call him a bust like you’ve been doing.

    112. bockadoo

      We drafted Frank because Phil/Gaines sees a Ron Harper or best case…..wait for it……yes, one Walt “Clyde” Frazier – a ball hawking, great defender who can also pass, shoot and make the TEAM better. They know more than we do, so let’s just have faith in their talent judgement which has shown to be pretty dang good. Shall we?

    113. Ben R

      Other lottery picks who were drafted at the same age or within 5 months as Frank when he was drafted:

      Stats are per 36 – age 18 season in Europe:
      Mudiay – No stats in B-R
      Maker – No Stats in B-R
      Rubio – 14.8 pts – 9.5 asts – 3.5 stls – 21 minutes per game
      Papagiannis – 19.1 pts – 8.7 rebs – 2.5 blks – 9 minutes per game
      Valanciunas – 17.9 pts – 13.6 rebs – 1.6 blks – 15.4 mins per game
      Bender – 6.3 pts – 5.0 rebs – 2.1 blks – 10.5 minutes per game
      Ntilikina – 10.2 pts – 4.2 rebs – 2.7 asts – 18.3 minutes per game

      Ntilikina has worse stats than all of them except Bender who looks like a bust.

    114. Ntilakilla

      Producing volume stats of Euroleague players – wow. Also, Mudiay didn’t play in Europe. He played in China.

    115. Z-man

      I don’t understand where Hardaway is going to get his minutes, much less Dotson. Lee is going to get his 30+ minutes and Lance is backing up melo. Plus Hardaway doesn’t rebound enough to play the 3

      And you claim to understand math? Here’s an equation for you:

      4 YearsX$17+million per year=30+mpg

    116. Ben R

      @ 121

      I don’t think Ntilikina is a bust I just am not holding out a lot of hope. I sure hope I’m wrong, but the more I look the less promising he seems. There is nothing that stands out, no flashes of potential, or incredible size or otherworldly athleticism. The big thing that worries me is that most of the successful European players that came over at 19 or 20 were already putting up 16+ points per 36 on their age 18 season. His low usage screams role player to me.

      Even Rubio who put up stunning non scoring numbers but wasn’t a high scorer has struggled to really dominate in the NBA. Just like djphan said when looking at players at lower levels usage is very important.

    117. Z-man

      Seriously, is there any doubt that TH2 is going to be the starting 2 guard? If not, then everything Mills/Perry said about going with youth and athleticism is BS.

      My guess is that Lance or Kuz will start at the 3, most likely Lance unless Kuz has dramatically improved over the summer. Then Melo or his replacement will play the 4 and KP will start at the 5. Or, maybe they go with Melo at the 3, KP at the 4 and Willy at the 5, then bring Willy, Kuz, Lee and O’Q off the bench. Dotson will play some at the 2. The PG rotation will be Baker, Sessions and Frank.

    118. djphan

      @119 – i wasn’t even referring to frank but yes that’s true that it means different things but it’s not that far off either…. just because you’re playing against ‘grown men’ you have to distinguish yourself…. being lower usage can mean a lot of things… especially the coach limiting your role…. but it can also very well mean that you are actually limited in what you can do….

      and it astounds me that ppl assume it’s the former….

    119. Bruno Almeida

      The kid is 6’5″ with a 7 foot wingspan, how does his size not stand out? He put up pretty similar numbers to those you quote on the u18 tournament, but like I’ve read many times here, those stats should somehow be meaningless and ignored.

      Why the hell would this guy be a consensus top 10 pick if literally nothing about him stands out?

      I’m the one who generally believes team execs to be dumber than the general perception, but this is taking it a bit too far.

    120. 2FOR18, understands math

      We could deal melo and Lee for Kanter, McDermott, Singler and whatever. Probably makes too much sense though.

    121. Will the Thrill

      I don’t think Frank would have been drafted in the first round if not for his physical build. Typically though, you would hope that this comes with some extreme athleticism. Unfortunately this is not the case. Nothing about Frank really stands out other than his arm length, but I still am hopeful and hope he succeeds. He wouldn’t have been my choice, though.

    122. nicos

      Frank’s numbers aren’t that much different than Batum’s numbers in his 18 yr old season- Batum put up 11.1 pts, 5.9 rbs, 2.6 asts, 1.7 stls per 36. Frank put up 10.2, 4.2, 2.7, 1.5. Batum turned it over a lot more but fouled less, Frank played a few more minutes a game but fewer games so not much difference in minutes played. The one thing that scares me is that Batum shot .642 from 2 point range that year (and .593 the year after in a much bigger role) which is what you’d expect from a wing who’s athletically superior to his competition. Batum was pretty good right away in the NBA at age 20 so hopefully that bodes well for Frank. I see Frank ultimately as a Batum-ish 2- a guy who can defend multiple positions, knock down open shots and give you above average playmaking for his position. That would be a pretty good return for an eighth pick. I preferred Smith because he’s a pure point but that’s just water under the bridge now.
      On another note I do think Frank’s crazy foul numbers are at least in part from picking guys up full court a lot- something it’s doubtful he’ll do much against NBA-quality points, most of whom will be smaller and quicker than him but I do think he’ll struggle a bit on that end early on as he adjusts to the speed of the game.

    123. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Totally unrelated to what we’re talking about but apparently Mo Bamba went to Sloan two years in a row. Always knew I liked the kid for some reason.

    124. Bruno Almeida

      The one thing I heard about Bamba is that weird as hell story from his older brother saying he received gifts and should not be eligible to play in the NCAA. I mean, what the hell? His brother is purposefully trying to screw him? Why? I’m more intrigued than I should reasonably be about this.

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