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Tuesday, December 12, 2017

Knicks Morning News (2017.07.11)

  • [NYPost] The Knicks already have their next Phil Jackson
    (Monday, July 10, 2017 5:43:14 PM)

    As the David Griffin flirtation demonstrated, the Knicks already have their successor to former president Phil Jackson. According to sources debriefed on their front-office search, owner James Dolan is moving forward with a plan that has Steve Mills remaining as the permanent president. No negotiations have taken place yet between the Knicks and Mills. However,…

  • [NYPost] The Knicks timing is what shocked Tim Hardaway Jr. most
    (Monday, July 10, 2017 4:09:16 PM)

    When Phil Jackson got sacked days before the start of free agency, it crossed Tim Hardaway Jr.’s mind the Knicks might show interest in him. But he actually didn’t really believe they would chase him now. “Maybe in the future,’’ Hardaway said. “I definitely thought about it. Not going to lie.” Jackson shipped Hardaway, a…

  • [NYPost] The Knicks screwed up their own party and made it a ghost town
    (Monday, July 10, 2017 2:14:05 PM)

    The Knicks sure have a funny way of firing up their fan base. Maybe you think $71 million is a gross overpay for Tim Hardaway Jr. Maybe you fret there will come a time in the next few years when the Knicks might covet a star and won’t have enough salary-cap room to entice him…

  • [NYPost] Tim Hardaway Jr. wants Carmelo around for next Knicks chapter
    (Monday, July 10, 2017 11:46:41 AM)

    Newcomer Tim Hardaway Jr. is already lobbying for Carmelo Anthony to stick. Hardaway said he has yet to hear from his buddy since he officially rejoined the Knicks on Saturday, but he would like Anthony back in the fold, even if management is intent on looking to deal him. “It’s an odd feeling,’’ Hardaway said…

  • [NYDN] Tim Hardaway Jr. ‘definitely’ wants Carmelo to stay with Knicks
    (Monday, July 10, 2017 8:47:45 PM)

    Newest Knick Tim Hardaway Jr. doesn’t want to see Carmelo Anthony leave New York.

  • [NYDN] Knicks bet $71 million on a mature, defensive-minded Hardaway Jr.
    (Monday, July 10, 2017 8:46:27 PM)

    The Knicks aren’t paying for Tim Hardaway Jr. of today.

  • [NYDN] Tim Hardaway Jr. equally ‘surprised’ that he’s back with Knicks
    (Monday, July 10, 2017 8:43:10 PM)

    As it turns out, Tim Hardaway Jr. is just as shocked as everyone else that the Knicks came calling in free agency.

  • [ESPN] Bulls sign former Knicks guard Holiday
    (Monday, July 10, 2017 5:41:03 PM)

    Bulls sign former Knicks guard Holiday

  • [ESPN] Hardaway: Definitely want Melo back on Knicks
    (Monday, July 10, 2017 3:43:10 PM)

    Hardaway: Definitely want Melo back on Knicks

  • [ESPN] With David Griffin out, Knicks focused on Carmelo trade, finding veteran PG
    (Monday, July 10, 2017 1:52:11 PM)

    With David Griffin out, Knicks focused on Carmelo trade, finding veteran PG

  • [NY Newsday] Tim Hardaway Jr. surprised, delighted to be Knick again
    (Monday, July 10, 2017 8:20:34 PM)

    Tim Hardaway Jr. admitted his first reaction when the Knicks showed interest in him was ‘Wow!” But after the shock and surprise of that initial phone call, he said he wouldn’t want to play with anyone else.

  • [SNY Knicks] GEICO SportsNite: Hardaway Jr. is back in New York
    (Tuesday, July 11, 2017 12:14:54 AM)

  • [SNY Knicks] Tim Hardaway, Jr. wants Carmelo Anthony to remain with Knicks
    (Monday, July 10, 2017 4:35:51 PM)

    Former Knicks president Phil Jackson had been attempting to trade Anthony prior to parting ways with the organization, and the Knicks are reportedly still trying to trade him even with Jackson gone.

  • [SNY Knicks] JRSportBrief: Former Cavs GM David Griffin rejects the Knicks
    (Monday, July 10, 2017 12:55:18 PM)

    In the latest installment of JRSportBrief on SNY.tv, JR talks about former Cavs GM David Griffin being out of the running for a Knicks job.

  • [SNY Knicks] Former Cavs GM Griffin withdraws name from Knicks’ consideration
    (Monday, July 10, 2017 9:30:39 AM)

    Former Cleveland Cavaliers GM David Griffin reportedly took his name out of the New York Knicks’ front-office search.

  • [SNY Knicks] New York Sports Today: Griffin withdraws name from search
    (Monday, July 10, 2017 9:46:25 AM)

  • [NYTimes] Tim Hardaway Jr. Brings a Familiar Face to a New Day for the Knicks
    (Tuesday, July 11, 2017 12:36:36 AM)

    A player who began his N.B.A. career in New York returns with a newfound maturity as the team begins to move past the Phil Jackson era.

  • 332 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.07.11)

    1. Zanzibar

      If any deal is between just NYK and Houston, there are a few ways this could be worthwhile to us:

      (1) 2020 pick, Hartentenstein, Zhou Qi, 2nd round picks
      (2) Swap Lee for Gordon (younger and more tradeable)
      (3) Get rid of Kuz. Kuz dump plus Lee/Gordon swap in separate trade plus Melo/Anderson and non-guaranteed contracts trade could free up just enough cap to sign Rondo on 1 year deal.

    2. Zanzibar

      To those defending the Timmy signing, consider this: There is a player I will call Player X. He’s 1 year younger than Timmy and improved significantly last season. Here’s who higher on each advanced metric:

      RPM……..Player X
      WS/48….Player X
      WP48……Player X
      BPM………Equal
      VORP…….Timmy

      So I take the Timmy signing apologists would think paying Player X 17m/year plus trade kicker plus player option would be great also? Want to know who Player X is? Jerian Grant. The irony is just too rich.

    3. Brian Cronin

      (1) 2020 pick, Hartentenstein, Zhou Qi, 2nd round picks
      (2) Swap Lee for Gordon (younger and more tradeable)
      (3) Get rid of Kuz. Kuz dump plus Lee/Gordon swap in separate trade plus Melo/Anderson and non-guaranteed contracts trade could free up just enough cap to sign Rondo on 1 year deal.

      So wait, it’d be Melo, Lee and Kuz for Gordon, Anderson, Hartenstein, Zhou Qi, 2nd round picks and a 2020 first rounder? Does that even work in the trade machine?

    4. Zanzibar

      So wait, it’d be Melo, Lee and Kuz for Gordon, Anderson, Hartenstein, Zhou Qi, 2nd round picks and a 2020 first rounder? Does that even work in the trade machine?

      Yes. The direct Lee/Gordon swap works as a separate trade. Houston’s got a few non-guaranteed contracts to make Melo/Kuz for Anderson TRADE work. We’d be netting more than 10m in free cap through these trades.

    5. Brian Cronin

      Hmmm…but they’d still be taking Anderson back, right? I don’t think they want to do that at all.

    6. Z-man

      Not sure what point you are trying to make, Zanzibar. Maybe you’re saying that if he keeps putting up the same numbers, Grant has a big payday awaiting him when his rookie contract is up, or that the Knicks scouting staff is amazing in finding two good players deep in the first round, or that Chicago is stupid for not playing Grant over Rondo and especially MCW. Or you saying that Grant should be converted to a 2, since his stats are roughly similar to a guy who is nothing but a 2, except for his very low usage?

      What I do know is that Hardaway put up his numbers in a much larger role, playing double the minutes, putting up 900 FGA to Jerian’s 300. He has similar assist and turnover numbers, even though TH2 a 2 and Jerian is a 1.

      In any case, it’s a meaningless comparison in terms of evaluating the Hardaway signing.

    7. lavor postell

      All the reporting is the Knicks’ only desire is to get younger. Windhorst was on the air the other day and said that the Knicks’ priority was signing guys 25 or younger. I’m assuming this isn’t quite literal given the well documented search for a veteran guard, but Anderson would seem to be a non-starter if this is true and it has been reported that Mills has no interest in him at this stage.

    8. Zanzibar

      UPDATED TRADE including all of the players in single trade (doesn’t let me add Zhou Qi though). We net about 8m in cap (I had thought Lee made more than Gordon but it’s the opposite).

    9. Frank

      My impression on the Mel0-Houston trade is that there is already a trade agreed upon between NYK-HOU as a 2 team deal, but that for whatever reason Morey has asked for time to make a “better” deal for both sides. That’s really the only thing that makes sense — multiple outlets, not just from the NYK side, have reported that multiple players have said off-the-record that it’s a done deal that Melo is going to be a Rocket.

      I wonder whether CP3 agreeing to a trade to Houston was somehow contingent on Morey making every attempt to get Melo there as well. Or whether CP3 and Harden (who by all accounts is close to Melo) are literally in Morey’s ear every second to make this happen.

      Anderson’s contract is terrible but from a long-suffering NYK fan perspective, a lineup of Ntilikina, Lee, Hardaway, Anderson, and KP would be super fun to watch. Talk about bombs away!

      Also – Zanzibar’s trade does sort of make sense.
      Knicks want to get younger. We know the Knicks have had interest in Eric Gordon in the past. Morey really likes Eric Gordon so doesn’t want to give him up. The only other player that could come across $-wise in a 2-team trade would be Ariza, but apparently Ariza and CP3 are close, and they would need Ariza to guard the wings that Melo can’t.

      Melo and Lee for Anderson, Gordon, Hartenstein, other filler like Isaiah Taylor, and some picks would work, and would also clear more cap space for NYK (depending on how much salary we took back from Houston as filler – could be the non guaranteed contracts).

      It wouldn’t be great return, but I think Gordon being 4 years younger than Lee with the same salary essentially would be a reasonable upgrade, and considering Hartenstein was considered by many to be a late 1st round pick this draft, and getting another 1st (even late)… that might be the best we could hope for given our lack of leverage.

    10. Brian Cronin

      I guess you could probably move Gordon for something (more so than Lee, who apparently no one is interested in on his own). So that’s something.

    11. Z-man

      I don’t think Houston is looking to move Gordon. He was a 6MOY candidate for them and as GSW showed, having a solid bench is important. I also don’t understand why we would take on worse players on longer contracts just to dump Melo’s one or two years. Hard pass on both sides, but more from our side, even with the sweeteners.

    12. Frank

      Re: THJ – FWIW I liked what he said at the press conference yesterday. Press conference statements mean nothing, of course, but at least he said all the right stuff about maturing, playing defense, taking better shots, etc.

      One thing I can say after watching his highlights from last year — yes, they’re highlights, but there’s no one on the roster that can do the types of things THJ can do athletically. He’s a plus athlete even by NBA positional standards, unlike literally anyone else on the team. He seems to have gotten a lot more creative with finishes around the basket, and it feels like his first step has gotten way better in attacking guys off closeouts or when they’re off balance.

      Someone, can’t remember who, talked down THJ’s 2P% as “they’re just transition baskets”, but we were AWFUL in transition last season except for Rose. If Rose isn’t coming back and we are still planning on playing faster under Hornacek, then those are the buckets we have to have.

    13. Zanzibar

      Windhorst was on the air the other day and said that the Knicks’ priority was signing guys 25 or younger.

      I think they want Harkless. But if that’s not happening, Hartentstein and Qi plus the picks are all under 25yo and Gordon is younger and more tradeable than Lee. The real issue to me would be that I’m not sure Hartenstein and Qi could get enough burn because of KP/Willy/KOQ/Noah logjam at the 4/5.

    14. Z-man

      I don’t see Lee and Gordon being analagous. Gordon is much more suited to D’Antoni’s offense.

    15. lavor postell

      I think they want Harkless. But if that’s not happening, Hartentstein and Qi plus the picks are all under 25yo and Gordon is younger and more tradeable than Lee. The real issue to me would be that I’m not sure Hartenstein and Qi could get enough burn because of KP/Willy/KOQ/Noah logjam at the 4/5.

      Yeah, I think the parameters of a 3 team deal are in place but Houston is working on getting an additional sweetener to throw Portland’s way to seal it. That’s my uneducated guess anyways.

      Harkless would fit the bill for the Knicks since they could use him to fill out the starting lineup and then wax poetic about how the entire starting 5 is 25 or younger, which I can see being a big source of motivation for them. I don’t really know shit though. We’ll find out soon enough it seems.

    16. stratomatic

      I want no part of Anderson at all.

      He’s not good.

      He doesn’t fit a need.

      He’s on a decline (somewhat hidden by the fact that he played for D’Antoni last year)

      His contract is both longer and worse than Melo’s.

      I would consider virtually any trade that saddled us with both Noah and Anderson for 3 years an abomination and 3 year franchise destroying move.

    17. Zanzibar

      I’m surprised people are so adamant in the face of this return if Morey would do it:
      – Houston’s 2020 1st round pick
      – Hartentsein
      – Zhou Qi
      – 1 or 2 second round picks
      – Gordon for Lee

      And it’s not like Anderson is not playable. Heck someone here from Portland said Blazers would do Crabbe – Anderson swap.

    18. Z-man

      Frank, it was me, but I also re-thought that after watching highlights from his good games in the spring, exp. vs. Spurs, Cavs, Wiz, Bucks, and Warriors. What stood out to me is how much stronger he looked. He’s definitely more multidimensional as a scorer than I remember.

    19. Z-man

      Zanzi, it’s not a terrible deal, just not one that I see happening due to Morey being too saavy for it and us taking on a contract that is significantly worse than Melo’s. But I wouldn’t cry if it happened. We are getting some promising young players and some probably low-level picks. And maybe Anderson will be attractive to a contender in year 3 of his deal. I’m just holding out hope that we can move Melo w/o taking on that deal.

    20. english_knick

      I just hate the idea of Anderson. If we’re going to take him, mentally we’d have to split it into two deals. What are we getting for giving up Melo – who, rightly or wrongly, they want? And what are we getting for taking on Anderson – who they don’t want and nor do we. So Zhou, Hartenstein, a first and some seconds feels like the minimum, and swapping Lee for Gordon would help. In order to trade us a pick they have to unprotect the top-3 protection on the pick they sent to LA – and if they do that, they can actually trade us picks in 2020 and 2022 I think, so there’s that…

      But I’d MUCH prefer to move Anderson for space and/or younger, smaller contract players, and part of the deal should be Houston finding assets to make that happen with a third team…

    21. Brian Cronin

      Re: THJ – FWIW I liked what he said at the press conference yesterday. Press conference statements mean nothing, of course, but at least he said all the right stuff about maturing, playing defense, taking better shots, etc.

      Not even showing up at the press conference introducing your player, though, that definitely means something. That they’re cowardly assholes.

    22. lavor postell

      It’s kind of funny because I wrote an article a month before free agency about the various improvements Hardaway had made to his overall game in Atlanta after being traded from New York. As much as we discussed the Rose trade it was moving Hardaway that in retrospect seemed like the big mistake given his development, athletic ability and our need for talent and athletes on the wing.

      Before FA I thought he’d get 4 yrs/$60m so what the Knicks ended up offering him wasn’t too much higher than I initially felt, but I never expected for the Knicks to be the team that ponied up the cash for him. I certainly wouldn’t have done it and it’s an overpay for sure. I don’t think THJ will earn the money and providing surplus value is a long shot, but if nothing else at least they targeted the right age and profile for a free agent they should be willing to roll the dice on.

    23. Zanzibar

      If we’re going to take him, mentally we’d have to split it into two deals. What are we getting for giving up Melo – who, rightly or wrongly, they want? And what are we getting for taking on Anderson – who they don’t want and nor do we. So Zhou, Hartenstein, a first and some seconds feels like the minimum, and swapping Lee for Gordon would help.

      Remember we’d also free up about 9m in cap after the trade if Kuz is included. Maybe there’s a bargain player left standing at the end of free agency or we are able to sign Rondo on a 1 year deal. Or we could sign one of Sessions/Lawson/Dwill using 4m room exception and keep the 5m free cap which might be useful during the season as a facilitator for teams making other trades. Or maybe we get Lawson or Dwill at vet min and have entire 9m available.

    24. stratomatic

      Not even showing up at the press conference introducing your player, though, that definitely means something. That they’re cowardly assholes.

      The pinheads that offered him more than would be required to land him and added in a trade kicker that caused issues with Melo didn’t want the public humiliation of being asked about it, especially when they are all trying to get promotions and more of Dolan’s money.

    25. Brian Cronin

      The pinheads that offered him more than would be required to land him and added in a trade kicker that caused issues with Melo didn’t want the public humiliation of being asked about it, especially when they are all trying to get promotions and more of Dolan’s money.

      Pre-cisely. Which is just so incredibly douchey.

    26. stratomatic

      Anderson, Hardaway, Noah, and Lee would be brutal.

      I agree. That’s exactly what you want to avoid and the point I’ve been trying to make about rebuilding. You can rebuild in a variety of ways (and should), but once you get to the 35-50 win area draft picks lose value and having good contracts and cap space become more valuable. I don’t even think Lee is a bad contract. We could move him now if we wanted. The team likes him and doesn’t want to trade him. But Anderson, Noah, and Hardaway would take up a huge chunk of our cap space, under perform their contracts, and be totally unmovable in trades. That would put us right in the death zone where you are too good to move forward significantly via draft but don’t have the assets or space to improve via trade or free agency.

    27. Zanzibar

      Anderson, Hardaway, Noah, and Lee would be brutal.

      Melo, Hardaway, Noah, Lee would be more brutal. And you’re delusional if you think Melo would be benched or sent home. Warkentien is CAA and Mills is close to CAA “worldwide wes” who’s a Dolan confidante. And Isiah would be telling Dolan it would be unwise to treat your star like that. In fact, I’m still not able to dismiss the possibility of this Melo trade as a hoax and we put out a starting lineup of Rondo (room exception), Hardaway, Melo, KP, Willy and make the playoffs. Melo then opts out and gets a Timmy-like 4 year 75m including a trade kicker.

    28. Brian Cronin

      “I’ve been asking them to surround me with young and athletic players for years now! Way to go, Mills-y! I think I’ll stay now!”

    29. english_knick

      Melo in that group is NOT worse than Anderson when you factor in the killer extra year…

    30. Ntilakilla

      When Smello is gone we can finally breathe a deep breath of relief knowing our rebuild has truly begun.

      Of course, that sweet aroma could become a stench if Anderson is the price we have to pay for it to happen.

    31. Ntilakilla

      In fact, I’m still not able to dismiss the possibility of this Melo trade as a hoax and we put out a starting lineup of Rondo (room exception), Hardaway, Melo, KP, Willy and make the playoffs. Melo then opts out and gets a Timmy-like 4 year 75m including a trade kicker.

      Paranoid much?

    32. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      TH2 won’t be unmovable if he plays in an up tempo offense. He’ll score a lot of points and shoot a lot of 3s so playoff teams will always have interest in his game.

    33. Zanzibar

      Paranoid much?

      Trust much? You trust the gutless MSG schemers who wouldn’t even show up to Timmy’s press conference?

      TH2 won’t be unmovable if he plays in an up tempo offense.

      He’ll be in the Crabbe, Fournier category. Won’t be much interest. Might be more if the player option weren’t there but that’s a killer.

    34. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      If we’re taking back Anderson I really need us to get back some serious compensation. Can we sign and trade Derrick Rose to Houston? I think that would make it easier for them to move Eric Gordon because Rose would be a dynamic 6th man. There has to be a team out there that would give up an asset for Gordon.

      The longer this drags out makes me believe there is no trade with Houston. Morey is trying to screw us when Melo can just opt out at the end of the year and save us from 2 years of Ryan Anderson.

    35. stratomatic

      I would WAY rather have Melo for 2 years (with a good chance he opts out after 1) than Ryan Anderson for 3.

    36. Ntilakilla

      Trust much? You trust the gutless MSG schemers who wouldn’t even show up to Timmy’s press conference?

      You know full well there are many alternative explanations for why a front office headed by Mike Dolan’s lackeys wouldn’t want to attend a press conference announcing the signing a player to a deal the New York and national ripped into shreds that has nothing to do with some grand elaborate master scheme to keep Melo on the Knicks.

    37. stratomatic

      I do think THJ likely ends up more moveable than Lee, at least.

      I’ve seen multiple reports that said the Knicks have (or at least had) a Lee trade all lined up if they needed to move him, but they don’t want to trade him because he’s the kind of 2-way player they want and everyone loves him. One of the reports was from @JSports_ent. He seems to have some legitimate sources and he tends to be very professional and reserved about his claims. Every time I asked him about Lee being part of some trade I thought made sense he told me the same thing. They can move him easily if they have to but they don’t want to.

    38. stratomatic

      TH2 won’t be unmovable if he plays in an up tempo offense. He’ll score a lot of points and shoot a lot of 3s so playoff teams will always have interest in his game.

      Like I said when the deal first deal went down, if he plays really well his contract and the trade kicker (which can be an issue) will be irrelevant because we won’t want to trade him. Unfortunately that was true of Noah also. But he didn’t play so well.

    39. xcat01

      Since everyone is proposing Melo trades, he’s mine.
      Hou gets Melo
      Nets get Anderson, Hartenstein, Taylor and draft picks
      Knicks get Lin, Hollis-Jefferson, Troy Williams
      I know that this is a salary dump trade but the Knicks need a PG, JLin has been successful in NY before and fits Hornacek’s uptempo offense. Hollis-Jefferson is a strong wing defender who adds bench depth and the best part the Knicks get over $12M in cap relief. If you are going to tank for a high draft pick, why not just go for it.

    40. ess-dog

      Adding Anderson to the already terrible Noah contract would be a disaster, but at this point, it’s like complaining that the eyeshadow doesn’t quite go with the blush on that zombie that’s trying to eat your brains. Just get the hell out of there.

    41. Hubert

      Now that it’s looking more and more likely that Steve Mills will run the Knicks, I wonder how people feel today about lottery-protected draft pick compensation for Masai Ujiri. I don’t think it’s likely we will draft a player outside the lottery likely to improve our lot more than upgrading from Mills to Ujiri.

      Frankly, at this point, I would be open to just top 7 protection. Mills will surely destroy us if given the chance.

    42. Brian Cronin

      I’ve seen multiple reports that said the Knicks have (or at least had) a Lee trade all lined up if they needed to move him, but they don’t want to trade him because he’s the kind of 2-way player they want and everyone loves him. One of the reports was from @JSports_ent. He seems to have some legitimate sources and he tends to be very professional and reserved about his claims. Every time I asked him about Lee being part of some trade I thought made sense he told me the same thing. They can move him easily if they have to but they don’t want to.

      There have been far more reports that they’ve offered Lee up for picks last season and found no takers. And than that they offered him up for picks before this year’s draft and found no takers. Plus, of course the constant reports of “The Knicks are willing to move Courtney Lee to free up cap space” and yet no trade ever occurs.

    43. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      The Nets seem to be the only team in the NBA that still has a bunch of cap space. I think they would be ambivalent about helping us out, but if we can swing a trade to make them more competitive that helps both New York and Brooklyn because Boston won’t get a high pick.

    44. Hubert

      Ben R
      July 11, 2017 at 3:57 am

      I don’t see the rush. We have all the leverage.

      But Houston has all the brains. I know which I’d rather have.

      Brian Cronin
      July 11, 2017 at 4:21 am

      It really is such a fascinating situation. Houston clearly wants him, but if all they want to deal is Anderson (and the picks and Hartenstein) then it doesn’t work. But he’s motivated to go there and they’re motivated to get him. So it is all about whether Morey can convince some team out there that Anderson is worth actually giving something up to get him. I don’t know that he can pull that off.

      Perhaps it pushes Cleveland to try to get Melo? But Cleveland has even less flexibility than Houston!

      I think Morey’s plan is to continue to offer shit and wait. He knows Melo has us in a bind. Eventually we will either take his pile of shit or we will buy him out. That’s his move.

      At this point, we have to be willing to kiss Melo’s ass and make him want to play here next year. Then he can opt out, and we can all move on. I think that’s the second best case scenario here. The best would be Cleveland loses their mind and offers us Love.

      I’d rather have Melo here next year than take back contracts like Anderson. You never know, we might be able to trade him mid year.

    45. stratomatic

      There have been far more reports that they’ve offered Lee up for picks last season and found no takers.

      Asking for a first round pick for a guy in his 30s is different than being able to move him for extra cap space, to fill a different need, or as part of a bigger deal. I see nothing wrong with his deal and believe that they do want to keep him and simply haven’t been offered a good pick.

    46. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      A buy out leaves Morey at risk of losing Melo to the Cavs. He has to trade with us.

    47. Hubert

      A buy out leaves Morey at risk of losing Melo to the Cavs. He has to trade with us.

      So he loses Melo to the Cavs. Big deal.

      Morey isn’t desperate to acquire Carmelo Anthony. He’s willing to take him on without giving up anything too valuable. Huge difference.

    48. danvt

      If we get Ryan Anderson we’ll probably rue the day. Just as we’ll probably rue THJ. The opportunity cost would be too great. The important point is not that they don’t have a place in a rotation but what might you have been able to do otherwise.

      The thing is it’s just so tempting to take Anderson because he’ll sit quietly until it’s his turn to play. He’ll go to the corner and make threes. He won’t highjack the offense and poison the locker room. We’ve seen the Melo movie now and we know how it ends. A half season of volume scoring, lots of L’s and him on the bench the last twenty games as we pack it in for extra ping pong balls. Not enough to get a difference making stud, necessarily.

    49. lavor postell

      @54

      Appreciate it. Couldn’t help but laugh when I first saw we gave him an offer sheet.

    50. danvt

      I’m starting to rethink the thesis that Phil had full autonomy. I think he was probably told right off that he could have the 60 large but that he needed to build around Carmelo.

      Maybe JD left him alone after that but that was enough to kill his tenure. Man, the Knicks ruined one of the great basketball minds in history. I can see why Griffin rejected them. No one can survive working there.

    51. ptmilo

      Good Cacciola tweet:

      If the Knicks wanted to discreetly trade a certain someone, now would be a good time.

    52. Bruno Almeida

      the one thing that stays on my mind is: why the hell would Morey want Melo anyway?

      For all we know he’s a very smart guy who takes statistics seriously… my guess at this point is that he’s only pursuing the deal because it was requested by Chris Paul, and he’ll keep throwing shit at the Knicks and hoping it sticks because he realizes Melo’s value to his team is not high… then he can tell Paul “well buddy, we tried but NYC was asking too much”.

      anyway, the thing I hate the most is that everything involving Melo and this franchise drags on for like a million days and becomes a huge drama, not entirely Melo’s fault obviously… either fucking deal him or keep him and let’s move on, please.

    53. Farfa

      Nah, Phil did whatever he wanted to do. He just proved he was a good manager of great players as a coach but an awful POBO. Nothing else.

    54. kevin5318

      Melo is clearly valued more around the league than he is on this blog. Maybe Morey think he can get spot up Olympic Melo playing with Harden and CP3.

      Then we can finally put to rest the argument wether or not Melo’s efficiency can go up with solid guard play.

    55. er

      I think Morey’s plan is to continue to offer shit and wait. He knows Melo has us in a bind. Eventually we will either take his pile of shit or we will buy him out. That’s his move.

      At this point, we have to be willing to kiss Melo’s ass and make him want to play here next year. Then he can opt out, and we can all move on. I think that’s the second best case scenario here. The best would be Cleveland loses their mind and offers us Love.

      I’d rather have Melo here next year than take back contracts like Anderson. You never know, we might be able to trade him mid year.

      Exactly. I don’t see why having Melos contract on the books for two years is a big deal. Cut him. How long did we have to deal with Amare?

    56. Farfa

      @59

      Well if he has to sacrifice only Anderson and spare pieces to get him and try a one-year mega assault to Golden State, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, Paul is 32 and expiring. It’s not like they have a big window.

    57. Sir Robin

      @57-danvt. I think you may be right. Phil tried each year to rebuild on Melo’s timeline. He may have spent the past year trying to force out Melo or antagonize Dolan and get paid out in the alternative.

    58. Ntilakilla

      No releasing Melo if we don’t like Houston’s offer. He can at least help us tank by staying here and riding pine. Come trade deadline the Rockets may feel the urge to part with more anyways.

    59. Farfa

      Cutting Melo now makes no sense at all. Even though I don’t like his influence on the team, I’m pretty sure he’ll opt out next year. If he agrees to a buyout where he renounces to next year, I’d be ok with that.

    60. Hubert

      For all we know he’s a very smart guy who takes statistics seriously… my guess at this point is that he’s only pursuing the deal because it was requested by Chris Paul, and he’ll keep throwing shit at the Knicks and hoping it sticks because he realizes Melo’s value to his team is not high… then he can tell Paul “well buddy, we tried but NYC was asking too much”.

      I agree. I mean, I’m sure he’d be willing to take Melo at the vet’s min after a buyout, and I’m sure he thinks ANderson for Melo is good for Houston. But I think he’s happy at the end of the day if he does just enough to make Paul happy.

    61. Hubert

      Exactly. I don’t see why having Melos contract on the books for two years is a big deal. Cut him. How long did we have to deal with Amare?

      We’re not exactly agreeing, er. I was talking about making Melo happy for one year and hoping he opts out to play somewhere else.

      The problem seems to be people think he’s bad in the locker room. That’s why we have to kiss his ass.

    62. lavor postell

      Morey was willing to offer Melo a 4 year max in 2014. Maybe that opinion has changed but given the amount of smoke with this Melo-to-HOU stuff I’d guess he places a higher value on Melo than you might think.

    63. Jack Bauer

      Regarding Melo, if the Knicks are smart they will not buy him out or cut him. Patience is key here, Houston or possibly Cleveland will pony up something, sounds like they want him pretty badly. For once NY has the leverage and they should wait if necessary and squeeze the best offer they can out of one of these teams that must include a future first round pick. Of course that leads us to:

      Dolan names Steve Mills POBO – we’ll file that under The Blind Leading the Blind.

    64. Brian Cronin

      the one thing that stays on my mind is: why the hell would Morey want Melo anyway?

      If it’s just for Anderson, some late first rounders and a couple of decent back of the rotation prospects, it seems like a great deal for Houston even if Melo is only as good as he was last year.

    65. MSA

      Morey was willing to offer Melo a 4 year max in 2014. Maybe that opinion has changed but given the amount of smoke with this Melo-to-HOU stuff I’d guess he places a higher value on Melo than you might think.

      Melo was 29 and the offer was something like 4 years 88 million contract. That’s very different from a two years, 54 million for a 33yo Melo, clearly on the decline with a trade kicker and a player option in the final year.

    66. Frank

      Money’s a smart guy, which is why he will get this deal done.

      It’s the same rationale for Houston as it is for Kevin Love and Cleveland. Houston and Morey are not and should not be satisfied with another 55 win season — they are here to win the whole enchilada. Houston’s window is very limited. CP3 is still amazing but already in his early 32-33, and no matter what may have been talked about, may leave next summer. The amount of resources that Morey put into getting what may be a 1 year rental took him many years to accumulate. Morey is taking all the assets he built up and is taking his shot right now.

      Ryan Anderson was borderline unplayable against the Spurs in the playoffs, and would be even more so against the Warriors in a theoretical WCF. Melo may be diminished, but there is zero question that he’s a far superior player to Ryan Anderson on both ends of the floor. Would you rather have Olympic-role Melo (on a shorter contract to boot!) or Ryan Anderson? And when will Morey ever be able to get a player of Melo’s ability (even a diminished Melo) when his trade value is so low? Ryan Freaking Anderson, a 2nd round pick (Hartenstein), what will undoubtedly be a late 20s draft pick, and some filler? That’s a no-brainer for Morey.

      James Harden is in his prime.
      Chris Paul is still in his late prime, and might leave after this year.

      If I’m Morey, I’d trade anyone who isn’t absolutely essential — that means probably no Ariza (need defensive wing stopper), Capela (MDA needs his rim runner), and that’s probably it.

      Let’s say Morey balks, and the Rockets go down to the Spurs in the second round again, and Ryan Anderson is again a -4.9/100 poss. What’s he going to say when CP3 tells him that he’s walking because Morey isn’t actually committed to winning a championship but rather just likes to arbitrage assets?

    67. stratomatic

      Assuming Morey wants Melo, the only incentive he has to do a reasonable deal with the Knicks is that if he doesn’t deal, the Knicks will probably buy Melo out and then he might choose Cleveland instead. But if he knew Houston was Melo’s 1st choice, then he’d be better off offering crap and praying the Knicks are dumb enough.

    68. Frank

      and by the way there’s zero chance I cut Melo pre-season. I understand the locker room dynamics etc. but he is still an asset. You can always cut him later if it’s a real problem, but my impression is that this team will be better than predicted just based on us playing a real NBA offense and not having Derrick Rose on defense, and wins always cure the locker room.

    69. TheOakmanCometh

      A 3-team Melo deal with Cleveland and Charlotte/Portland makes more sense than a Houston deal. Kevin Love is only making a little more than Ryan Anderson but is a much better player. Charlotte and Portland both have holes at PF (and would presumably want Love) while also having enough movable pieces and draft picks to make a deal work.

      For example:
      Cavs get Melo and a small sweetener from Charlotte (2nd rounder or a Briante Weber type)
      Hornets get Love
      Knicks get Marvin Williams, Jeremy Lamb, and a 2018 lottery-protected pick

    70. latke

      The problem with not getting rid of melo asap is not just the locker room distraction (which will be a problem just due to the press asking constant questions) but the wins he will produce. There were people clamoring to trade Melo with our pick to move up in the draft just a few slots… Guess what? Simply waiving him would move us up at least a few slots in the draft.

    71. Hubert

      Frank, after everything you said about how Morey must want Melo, you add…

      If I’m Morey, I’d trade anyone who isn’t absolutely essential — that means probably no Ariza (need defensive wing stopper), Capela (MDA needs his rim runner), and that’s probably it

      …which is kinda the same thing I was saying: “Morey will offer us shit and hope we take it.”

      I’m sure he is willing to offer us Ryan Anderson, Hartenstein, and possibly even a 2020 pick.

      That’s a steaming pile of garbage. Hartenstein and a 1 is about what it would take just to dump Anderson on a team with cap space.

      So that gets us back to what I was saying: Morey is willing to take Melo for a bag of shit, but he doesn’t want him so bad that he would give up anything of real value.

    72. stratomatic

      Assuming the Knicks aren’t dumb enough to take back Anderson and the Cavs don’t offer anything either, then I think bringing Melo back will probably be close to impossible. At this point he wants out also and everything is so poisoned they should probably just buy him out like Phil wanted. The only issue would be timing. They can wait too.

    73. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      If Melo is bought out there is zero chance he chooses to play in Houston (further from his son) on a team that probably still loses to GSW over joining his bros Kyrie Irving, LeBron James, and JR Smith in Cleveland for a year and sleep-walking to an NBA Finals.

    74. Zanzibar

      Melo is NOT opting out of 28m unless it’s Knicks overpaying him. Just do the math. Morey wants Melo now not when he’s a year older and further diminished. He believes you need scorers (shot creators) and depth to have a chance against GSW. You’ve got to be able to match them on the offensive end. He said so much on Lowe’s podcast a few months ago. Melo would have a lot of pressure to perform this season the least of which would be CP3 barking at him.

    75. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      I bet if Phil Jackson were still president Morey would have landed Carmelo Anthony for Ryan Anderson and company. Better yet, I bet if Phil Jackson were still president Carmelo Anthony would have been bought out of his contract and we would have been on the hook for big money over the next two years.

      I’m still glad Phil Jackson is gone.

    76. Hubert

      The problem with not getting rid of melo asap is …. the wins he will produce.

      That’s a loaded assumption. We’ve managed to accumulate a ton of L’s with him in the lineup.

    77. Bo Nateman

      Is there a significant difference stat wise between Olympic Melo and Knick Melo? If so, perhaps Morey is banking on the former enhancing HOUs run at GSWs

    78. stratomatic

      I bet if Phil Jackson were still president Morey would have landed Carmelo Anthony for Ryan Anderson and company. Better yet, I bet if Phil Jackson were still president Carmelo Anthony would have been bought out of his contract and we would have been on the hook for big money over the next two years.

      Charlie Rosen said Phil was going to try to trade him, but I have a funny feeling Phil already knew from previous attempts at the trade deadline we were going to have to take back some crap contracts he didn’t want. If reports are correct, he was fired because he wanted to buy Melo out. I’m going to guess that’s why he went to Dolan and asked for a buyout. He already knew. If we turn around and trade him for something that does not include a shit contract (like Anderson or Leonard at Portland), then Phil was wrong.

    79. Zanzibar

      You know full well there are many alternative explanations for why a front office headed by Mike Dolan’s lackeys wouldn’t want to attend a press conference announcing the signing a player to a deal the New York and national ripped into shreds that has nothing to do with some grand elaborate master scheme to keep Melo on the Knicks.

      Look at it this way. Would a roster of Rondo, Timmy, motivated Melo, KP, Willy, Lee, KOQ, Dotson, Lance, Noah make the playoffs in the wretched East? I think so. You could therefore imagine Mills and Isiah telling Dolan the same thing. Think of all the favorable publicity which would accrue to Knicks if they make the playoffs. And if you’re Melo, would you rather make the playoffs in the East and then maybe opt out and receive a sweet deal from NYK in the euphoria or do you go to Rockets and maybe not make it to WCF and start hearing you’re to blame? I didn’t say this is a probability only a possibility. It would be a simple matter for Knicks to prevent a trade at this stage by making demands which Morey or Portland wouldn’t accept and then many people here would be praising the Knicks for showing restraint.

    80. jkhar

      This is starting to remind me of when the Knicks decided to trade Ewing instead of just letting him walk. That trade took us backwards, and left us in bad shape with some bad contracts, which we traded for even worse contracts…
      Maybe getting Melo to accept a buyout, with some type of cut (few mil?) is better than having another Ewing scenario where we are strapped with unwanted players/contracts?

    81. Bruno Almeida

      @87

      Unless you think THJr is that good, no, that’s not a playoff team. This same team with Rose instead of Rondo (not a big change tbh) won 31 games… asssuming Atlanta, Indiana and Chicago fall off, there’s still Charlote, Detroit and Miami who were all better than the Knicks and will most likely still be better… there’s also Philly who honestly looks better than the Knicks.

      I know you’re not exactly advocating this course of action, but this would literally be my nightmare scenario.

    82. Early Bird

      If melo really is the locker room cancer that the Knicks claim and he’s really that much of a negative influence on KP, then you *absolutely* buy him out.

    83. JK47

      Now that Phil is gone the Melo situation is a lot less toxic. Let him play out the string. There’s a good chance, probably 50/50, that he opts out after this year.

    84. Brian Cronin

      , which we traded for even worse contracts…

      That was the truly bananas part of it all, that they somehow made a much worse trade later on with one of the pieces they got in the Ewing trade. I still cannot believe that they thought it made sense to acquire Howard Eisley and Shandon Anderson for Glen Rice. Just one of the most pathetic trades I can recall and I can recall a whole lot of pathetic trades as a Knicks fan.

    85. Zanzibar

      Unless you think THJr is that good, no, that’s not a playoff team.

      Rondo >> Rose (just look at advanced metrics)
      Timmy > Lee
      Motivated Melo > Melo in losing season
      KP2017 > KP2016
      Willy2017 > Willy2016
      Dotson >>>> Baker
      Healthy Lance > Injured Lance
      Bench Lee > Starting Lee

      Yes I think we’re a better team and make the playoffs by virtue of us being better and EC being worse.

    86. Hubert

      I bet if Phil Jackson were still president Morey would have landed Carmelo Anthony for Ryan Anderson and company.

      I guess we’re lucky Ryan Anderson isn’t young and athletic.

    87. stratomatic

      If melo really is the locker room cancer that the Knicks claim and he’s really that much of a negative influence on KP, then you *absolutely* buy him out.

      That was probably Phil’s point of view after the trade deadline when he got a chance to see what kind of offers existed. Once he didn’t get any offers he liked, he moved on to a buyout because he wanted him off the team. He was determined to implement an offense that stressed ball movement, cutting etc… and Melo still wanted play iso-Melo. Rather than deal with more locker room mutinies, he was willing to admit his mistake by eating the contract and moving on.

    88. Hubert

      If melo really is the locker room cancer that the Knicks claim and he’s really that much of a negative influence on KP, then you *absolutely* buy him out.

      The knicks aren’t claiming he is a cancer. He had problems with Phil. Phil is gone.

      If we can’t trade him without taking back a terrible contract like Anderson, I think you’re better off letting the new regime tell him how important he is so he’s happy.

      These guys aren’t that hard to figure out. They want respect. And if they have an NTC, you kinda have to not piss them off.

    89. Z

      I kind of like that CHA trade proposed in #77.

      Charlotte with a starting 5 of Walker, Batum, Kidd-Gilchist, Howard, and Love would be an interesting team in the east.

      And NY would obviously do better landing Marvin Williams and his contract than Ryan Anderson and his. It’s not the sexiest deal, but Williams can do pretty much the same stuff Anthony will be able to do next year, and though he has an extra year (at half the price), he doesn’t have the NTC and cap-baggage of Anthony’s deal.

      Get it done, empty GM office!

    90. er

      That was probably Phil’s point of view after the trade deadline when he got a chance to see what kind of offers existed. Once he didn’t get any offers he liked, he moved on to a buyout because he wanted him off the team. He was determined to implement an offense that stressed ball movement, cutting etc… and Melo still wanted play iso-Melo. Rather than deal with more locker room mutinies, he was willing to admit his mistake by eating the contract and moving on.

      Exactly, this whole thing is stupid. Phil was an idiot. You don’t publicly say you are trying to get rid of someone and are flooatin buyout. Why would any smart GM give up anything?

      This was probably Phil’s best job…..loweringood the trade value of him

    91. Early Bird

      I don’t know what goes on in Knicks land. I don’t know what Melo does or doesn’t do. But there’s plenty of rumors of Melo pushing people out. Idk, how much of the problem was Philor how much was Melo. All I’m saying is that *if* Melo’s lack of effort or bad attitude or whatever it is retards the progression of KP, Ntilikina, Willy, et al. Then you get rid of him whatever the cost.

    92. Bruno Almeida

      @93

      you are banking on a looot of things to go well… I dont think it’s a sure thing that Melo will be better (he’s older and there’s no real indication he’ll ever be motivated), that KP and Willy for sure will progress, that Dotson, who hasnt played a single minute in the NBA will even be in the rotation… Rondo not self destructing… and that analysis still doesn’t take into account that Miami and Charlotte will surely be better this year and Detroit and Philly probably will too (after all, they all play in the same dreadful conference as the Knicks).

      I don’t think those possible changes will account for 7 more wins unless literally everything goes right for the Knicks of all franchises.

    93. DRed

      Rondo >> Rose (just look at advanced metrics) – Yes
      Timmy > Lee – Maybe
      Motivated Melo > Melo in losing season – Melo’s a year older and may not be motivated
      KP2017 > KP2016 – Probably
      Willy2017 > Willy2016 – Probably
      Dotson >>>> Baker – ???
      Healthy Lance > Injured Lance – Sure, if he’s healthy
      Bench Lee > Starting Lee – Lee is maybe better than Holiday

      So, we’re looking at KP and Willy if we want significant improvement. Maybe Melo can bounce back, or start trying, but it’s also possible he’s just done. A low playoff seed would certainly be possible if Melo improves a bit, Rondo stays focused, and the kids improve.

    94. 2FOR18

      Other than the salary, and other than us already having 3 off guards, and other than him being an average shooter, I don’t see what the hullaballoo is over the Hardaway signing.

    95. stratomatic

      Exactly, this whole thing is stupid. Phil was an idiot. You don’t publicly say you are trying to get rid of someone and are flooatin buyout. Why would any smart GM give up anything?

      This was probably Phil’s best job…..loweringood the trade value of him

      The possibility of a buyout was not public. Phil was publicly saying he WOULD NOT buy out Melo but he thought it was best for both parties if they moved on (a trade). The news of a potential buyout surfaced when Phil got fired and it got reported that behind the scenes he asked Dolan to buy out Melo and Dolan said “No”.

      My speculation is that he went to the buyout scenario only after seeing what was available in a trade at the deadline and he didn’t like anything.

    96. er

      My speculation is that he went to the buyout scenario only after seeing what was available in a trade at the deadline and he didn’t like anything.

      After he’s been bashing the guy for a year, in public making it known you were desperate.

    97. Zanzibar

      you are banking on a looot of things to go well

      Not really.

      – Rondo plays the same as he did last season.
      – Hardaway plays a bit better than Lee as a starter (stats say he already did this last season) and Lee will be more effective as a reserve.
      – KP and Willy rate to improve because most young players do improve.
      – Dotson’s game is NBA ready, he’s gonna be better than Baker.
      – Melo dogged it a lot in the 2nd half when it was clear we weren’t going anywhere. The opt out potential plus Rondo feeding him and team playing better will motivate him.
      – Lance is healthier this season

      I don’t think Detroit will be better than us. And 76ers are one Embiid injury from being toast and who knows how good Simmons will be in his first year? It wouldn’t be that difficult to get the 8th seed. And BTW you’re right I’m not advocating this course, only saying one could envision its attractiveness to Melo and the front office.

    98. Frank

      I do have to say I’m really surprised at how much Doc Rivers was able to get out of Morey for the CP3 deal given that Doc had zero leverage. If Morey had saved even one of those assets for this trade (like trading something other than Patrick Beverley, or something like that), I’m sure this melo deal would be done already.

    99. Donnie Walsh

      I kind of like that CHA trade proposed in #77.

      Charlotte with a starting 5 of Walker, Batum, Kidd-Gilchist, Howard, and Love would be an interesting team in the east.

      And NY would obviously do better landing Marvin Williams and his contract than Ryan Anderson

      Or, perhaps Charlotte would be open to re-uniting Howard and Anderson? Those two have had yin-yang success together before.

      Charlotte has a bunch of swing men, leaving Williams a diminished product. His contract is as long as Anderson’s.

      The thing about Anderson is that he is a useful player. He’s bad on defense, but next to Howard, one doesn’t notice that as much. He shot a career high 40% from 3 last year, on a career high 9 attempts per game.

      He has value, just not on the 2017 Knicks.

    100. Bruno Almeida

      I still think this is still too much going well for a Knicks season, Zanzibar.

      but yeah, it is of course possible that the Knicks will get a low playoff seed with that team… I just hate the idea so much that I can’t get behind it.

    101. lavor postell

      I do have to say I’m really surprised at how much Doc Rivers was able to get out of Morey for the CP3 deal given that Doc had zero leverage. If Morey had saved even one of those assets for this trade (like trading something other than Patrick Beverley, or something like that), I’m sure this melo deal would be done already.

      Doc can probably thank Jerry West for that

    102. JK47

      The Knicks as currently constituted, or as currently constituted + Rondo, don’t look like a playoff team to me. Mainly because they’d still be a shit defensive team that can’t rebound.

    103. MSA

      but yeah, it is of course possible that the Knicks will get a low playoff seed with that team… I just hate the idea so much that I can’t get behind it.

      If Melo is gone, it probably mean that we have a really young team playing next season. And if they manage to get a low playoff seed I wouldn’t be upset at all.

      What piss me off are the old 30 win teams without upside.

    104. Ntilakilla

      Would a roster of Rondo, Timmy, motivated Melo, KP, Willy, Lee, KOQ, Dotson, Lance, Noah make the playoffs in the wretched East? I think so.

      No.

    105. Cock Jowles, Not a Knicks Fan Because Fuck This Team

      I was pretty thrilled by the idea of Rubio, Lee, [anyone], Porzingis and WHG as a starting five. Now? Whatever.

    106. mase

      whay happens if we fall not make a deal now and wait till the deadline… will we have more or less leverage?

    107. lavor postell

      If we wait until the trade deadline I predict that we’ll have many more arguments about the value of Carmelo Anthony.

    108. Oaktrees

      NYK Insider?
      @NykInsider

      FWIW – a close NBA friend told me Melo to Houston is done. Very minor details being worked out now. Expects an announcement today/tomorrow
      10:53 AM – 11 Jul 2017

    109. thenoblefacehumper

      Wait, they used the fucking room exception on Ron fucking Baker? What the fuck? It never ends. Do they think if they treat him like an asset he’ll just magically become one?

      Justin Holiday isn’t all that good but he’s much better than Baker, as is every other NBA player who doesn’t suck. Stop me if you’ve heard this one before but this is so, so, so dumb.

    110. BigBlueAL

      How in the world does Ron fucking Baker get that much money?? I like the kid and hopes he improves but he was statistically beyond awful last year. There is no way in hell any other team offers him more than the league minimum and the Knicks give him basically 5m per year.

    111. lavor postell

      If you’re gonna overpay because you love Baker so much that’s stupid, but at least get a fucking team option or non-guaranteed year out of it.

    112. Bruno Almeida

      @111

      me too man, but on his scenario Melo stays and the Knicks bring Rondo, so…

      if this team sans Melo gets a playoff spot it will mean they got massive improvements from KP et al, so Id be happy too.

    113. Bruno Almeida

      and just as things were starting to look up a little bit Ron fucking Baker gets 9 million and a player option.

      I’m convinced at this point every agent in the league knows the Knicks give unnecessary incentives for absolutely free and they’re pouncing at the opportunity.

    114. JK47

      Oh good, the team mascot who isn’t very good at basketball got $5M per year guaranteed. Steve Mills is totes awesome guys!

      We’re gonna be soooooo good.

    115. JK47

      Ron couldn’t throw the ball into water if he was on a fucking boat in the middle of the ocean, but he does have such cute hair. And he tries hard! Trying hard is the new market inefficiency.

    116. Zanzibar

      WTF Baker? This must? mean that Knicks will shed enough salary in Melo trade to sign one of Rondo/Sessions/Lawson/Dwill. But then again we figured they had a Lee deal ready once Timmy was signed. Whatever…Knicks…. Kuz to get 10m.

      Note: Ron is not a 1 and we’re not sure Frank will be able to get the ball to half-court against NBA pressure.

    117. iserp

      I mean, that’s the same money of Justin Holiday, who is twice the player than Ron Baker (Although not a PG)

    118. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Just make Ron the starting PG so we can win 20 games and get our moneys worth please

    119. SJK

      In terms of overpays Ron Baker for 5m/year beats THJ for 18m/year by a wide margin. That is a straight up AWFUL signing. Even if Baker somehow breaks out and becomes a rotation player, which he’s not, you could’ve had him for the fucking minimum. Is there any evidence that anyone else wanted Ron Baker? God this team sucks.

    120. ClashFan

      Man, I like Ron Baker and wanted him back for a second year, but I’d have guessed that his deal was 2 years /$3.5m or something like that, not $8.9m

      Wow!

    121. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      Ron Baker and TH2 will be our starting back court next year. This confirms that we will win 23 games total.

    122. chrismcnealy

      just to confirm, didn’t the knicks do this to themselves by signing timmy without trading lee, melo or oquinn etc. quickly enough, causing them to renounce baker as a restricted free agent only to sign him a few days later?

      said another way, how much more exactly are the knicks on the hook for baker vs. what he would’ve cost last week as an RFA? anyone know?

      i hope baker treats timmy to a SERIOUS steak dinner

    123. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      I really don’t understand the New York Knicks. Ron Baker is beyond awful.

    124. Zanzibar

      Y’all gotta consider the trend just like you did for Timmy.

      Ron WS/48 1st half……… Minus .8
      Ron WS/48 post break… Minus .2

    125. ptmilo

      strange that baker would demand a clause that we keep Steve mills as POBO, but what can you do we had to have him

    126. Zanzibar

      Does Ron’s contract have a NTC and trade kicker?

      MSG conference room pre-draft:

      Scout……….Smith is lightning fast, dishes and rebounds. His stats are excellent.
      Scout……….Frank is young and got long arms.
      Mills………..Frank it is. Let’s order some lunch.

    127. Frank

      I actually think Ron Baker is an ok player, certainly wouldn’t be surprised to see him stick in the league. But the idea that you had to give him the full room exception AND a player option is just mind-boggling.

      We should give Toronto our next 3 1st round picks for Masai. Honestly. That’d be better than this.

    128. ClashFan

      When Mills says that he plans to sign guys 25 and under, he REALLY means it!

      No matter the cost!

    129. Z-man

      Zanzibar, since we know each other better now, you can call me Steve.

      Loves me some Ron Baker.

    130. Frank

      In terms of overpays Ron Baker for 5m/year beats THJ for 18m/year by a wide margin. That is a straight up AWFUL signing. Even if Baker somehow breaks out and becomes a rotation player, which he’s not, you could’ve had him for the fucking minimum. Is there any evidence that anyone else wanted Ron Baker? God this team sucks.

      If Ron Baker “breaks out” and proves NYK valuation correct, then giving him a player option gives him all the reward. It is just beyond comprehension.

      Are we sure Steve Mills went to Princeton?

      princeton should try and take back his degree.

      And isn’t Warkentien like a real person who used to be actual real GM that was considered competent? Are we sure he’s actually alive in there or is he some sort of zombie Warkentien whose brain has been eaten by worms?!

    131. Frank

      This Melo to Houston trade is going to be terrible.

      It’s going to be like Melo + our 2018 1st rounder for Anderson.

      I can’t even…

      I just had a visual of all these GMs moving their binoculars from sacramento…. to chicago … to Indiana… and then settling comfortably on MSG.

    132. TheOakmanCometh

      Mills: “We’d like to bring Ron back this year.”
      Baker’s agent: “Great! He wants to come back. How about a max contract? Haha.”
      Mills: “No way. That’s too much.”
      Agent: “Haha, I know, I was just joki…”
      Mills: “Don’t try your mind games on me, buddy! I’m a very important executive! I’ll give him 2 years at $9 million with a player option, but not a penny more.”
      Agent: “But I didn’t even ask for a player op…”
      Mills: “Not a penny more!!!”

    133. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      This is quite honestly the dumbest thing ever. Ron Baker for $5M? The Knicks love to bid against themselves. Here’s what I think happened:

      Mills: Ron, we’re going to renounce your rights so we can sign Tim Hardaway Jr. We still have every intention to keep you in New York.

      Baker: Sure thing, whatever it takes to make this team better.

      Mills: RON DONT LOOK SO SAD YOURE NOT GOING ANYWHERE! Don’t worry; for your loyalty we’re going to give you the full room exception! That’s like double what we agreed upon!

      Baker: Geez, thanks a lot Steve. You’re a great guy!

      Mills: STOP LOOKING SO SAD! Look; we’re gonna make that 2nd year a player option! So, you know, if you manage to play really well you can squeeze us for even more money!

      Baker: Why not? Go Knicks!

      Mills: Atta boy!

    134. er

      Haha Knicks.

      Inaming all seriousness though, can somebody get Adam Silver on the line? Dolan needs to be relieved of his team owning duties ASAP.

      I’m tellin b you guys they need to cut Melo, the trade is gonna be bad.

    135. TheOakmanCometh

      Who here still wants to give Mills the benefit of the doubt as a smart executive whose opinions were constantly ignored by his bosses? Anyone? Still think the Hardaway signing deserves a chance because Mills must know what he’s doing?

      It took all of two weeks for this front office to make me miss the austerity of the Phil Jackson regime. Well done, Dolan. Well done, Knicks.

    136. Frank

      Team optimist says Doncic will be a Knick if Ron starts for us.

      Doncic could have still been a Knick if Ron started for us WITHOUT A PLAYER OPTION

    137. Frank

      I literally think the Melo-Houston trade hasn’t happened because Morey can’t stop laughing long enough to complete the trade call with the NBA offices.

    138. Jack Bauer

      Ron F’ing Baker got a player option?!?! Have mercy
      There’s is only one team in the NBA that would do something like this……ladies and gentleman let me introduce Your New York Knicks.

      Team Incompetence – the gift that keeps on giving.

    139. rama

      I like Ron Baker, and this deal still defies belief. Player option?

      Laughing at all you chuckleheads who wanted Phil gone. It can always get worse.

    140. rama

      The Knicks will find a way to take the joy even out of trading away Melo. Can’t wait to see what that looks like.

    141. nicos

      This may be the single most inexplicable signing I can think of. It’s not the worst deal ever by any means just because of the money involved but still… I’m sure Ron would have gotten a camp invite from another team but I seriously doubt anyone would have given him a guaranteed deal prior to the season. And no one could have been thinking of giving him more than the minimum. And the player option????? This is seriously depressing.

    142. Hubert

      I just showed someone a picture of Ron Baker and he immediately said “looks like King Slender”,

      A great reference for anyone who grew up with Nintendo and played Pro Wrestling.

    143. ClashFan

      So, two signings into the Mills era, I think we see a trend developing. Players who are young, athletic, and overpaid!

    144. thenamestsam

      These player options continue to be legitimately hilarious. The Knicks have such a knack for little details that really reveal their incompetence as an organization. I swear to god I think Mills probably doesn’t realize that the player option is generally worse for the team than just guaranteeing that year. He’s over here negotiating with Baker’s agent like “We’re willing to offer you some extra money if you’re willing to accept a player option” and doesn’t understand why the other guy is having a coughing fit. What a ridiculous contract. Obviously the scope of this move is pretty minimal but by % terms the scale of this overpay is truly impressive.

    145. TheOakmanCometh

      Mills: “What will you give us for Carmelo?
      Morey: “Ryan Anderson.”
      Mills: “Is his last year a player option?”
      Morey: “No.”
      Mills: “Could I make it a player option?”
      Morey: “Uhhhh, I guess? So do we have a deal?”
      Mills: “Deal. I’ll also give you a 2018 pick.”
      Morey: “Do you know how negotiating works?”
      Mills: “I do not.”

    146. er

      I feel like Darth Vader. I am fully on the darkside now. I used to be bushy tailed Anakin, but fuckin guitar Jimmy did this to me.

      Team pessimism is there room for me?

    147. ClashFan

      Maybe we now know why Mills doesn’t want Anderson. His last year is guaranteed, not a player option!
      That’s just unacceptable!

    148. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      Ron Baker’s player option >>>> Carmelo Anthony’s NTC.

      Still glad Phil is gone, even if it’s only because he threatened Kristaps Porzingis’ roster spot.

    149. ptmilo

      Team pessimism is there room for me?

      you can join for 5 years but we won’t pay more than $15m/per and you must be stuck with the 5th year as an option — that’s on you. also we are allowed to trade you back to team optimism at any time unless you object. please tell us where to send the 2nd rounder.

    150. Hubert

      And people think Daryl fucking Morey is going to cave in to us because we have “all the leverage”. Give me a break!

    151. TheOakmanCometh

      And it’s Team Realist.

      Right. Team Realist only thinks this franchise continues to embarrass itself on a weekly basis. Team Pessimist thinks Dolan is going to live to 112.

    152. Zanzibar

      MSG Offices: paging Mr Mills, paging Mr Mills….. Mr Mills, I’ve got Trump University on the line, something about them wanting you to return your certificate.

    153. ClashFan

      Basically, Baker is now getting lottery pick money now, right, for the next two years!!??

    154. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      You know what’s going to happen this season? Ron Baker is going to ball out of his mind. He’ll post a .530 eFG% and a .570 TS%, get 7 assists/36 and play great defense as the Knicks lead guard.

      And then he’s gonna leave.

    155. ClashFan

      Ron Baker, Undrafted Lottery Pick!

      I really like Ron and wanted him back for a 2nd year, but this is beyond silly. Mills should be replaced immediately. Get Griffin back on the line!

    156. TheOakmanCometh

      Trump should love Mills. He’s single-handedly pushing up the national wage numbers.

    157. Bruno Almeida

      well, I’ll take the positives with the negatives.

      positive: it has to stop the wave of people here defending Mills and asking for time before judging him as terrible.

      negatives: everything else.

    158. ptmilo

      btw i refuse to let the Gardenboro take the fun out of ron baker. i literally own a signed copy of ‘you’re too big to dream small,’ and i will be rooting for ron to miraculously catch that uncatchable strike price while overplaying every pnr he sees.

    159. 2FOR18

      What makes anybody think melo would opt out of 30 mil for 1 year? Where do you guys get these delusions from? I’d seriously like to know where you knicks optimists get your drugs, as I could use them if they’re this good.
      Wake up. melo will be here for as long as he wants.

    160. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      If we’re picking in the top 3 next year somehow this will be all worth it. Having all of our 1st round picks going forward gives me peace.

    161. TheOakmanCometh

      “Melo, it’s time to get serious. You’ve only got two options. One, you can waive your NTC. Two, you can sign this max extension. Now what’s it going to be? I’m sorry I have to get so tough with you, but it’s my job to look out for the best interests of the franchise.”

    162. ClashFan

      Why all the gloom! Our young core is set! We have three lottery picks now!

      KP, Frank, and Ron! Plus a couple of nice second rounders in Willy and Dotson. Plus a budding young star in THJ.

    163. stratomatic

      It would be hard for me to fathom how someone who is reasonably bright and that follows the sport regularly could be dumb to give Baker this much (and I happen to like the idea of Baker coming back for a million or so) . It’s impossible to understand how someone that has been around the sport for decades and whose job it is to understand player value could be this dumb. Mills should be fired immediately and barred from MSG. He’s a walking menace.

      For all you Phil haters out there, this is what real incompetence looks like. Signing filler players to reasonable 1-2 year contracts because no good deals were available is not incompetence. It’s prudence and wise cap management. Mills is an idiot plain and simple. Two moves, both terrible.

    164. Zanzibar

      Some initial twitter reaction:

      Phil.…………………How’s it goink?
      Kings’ Owner…..Out-of-the-box thinking. I like it.
      ESPN Smith…….Bamboozled, hoodwinked.. Ron @$*$@% Baker..I don’t know what to…
      Donald Trump..You think I’m incompetent?
      Vlade Divac……..Thanks Millsy!
      Porzingis…………FR
      Melo…………………Ridiculous contract. I apologize Jeremy.

    165. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      The Knicks will be immensely fun to root for this season. Ron Baker, Tim Hardaway Jr, Kristaps Porzingis, and Willy Hernangomez might not win a bunch of games, but we know they will play hard and unselfish basketball on both ends. I like this roster so far but I hate the contracts so much.

    166. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      I think the damage is done. Mills can’t possibly hand out another dumb contract this off season. The only thing left for him to do is trade for Ryan Anderson and then we will officially be in lost cause mode for the next 3 years.

    167. Ntilakilla

      The Knicks will be immensely fun to root for this season. Ron Baker, Tim Hardaway Jr, Kristaps Porzingis, and Willy Hernangomez might not win a bunch of games, but we know they will play hard and unselfish basketball on both ends. I like this roster so far but I hate the contracts so much.

      Pretty much this.

    168. Ntilakilla

      Ron Baker is fun to root for?

      Not really, but I’d still rather root for him than Melo and D-Rose. Actually, I’d rather root for paint to dry than those two.

    169. Zanzibar

      Mills’ Timmy overpay was influenced by the Hardaway name and pedigree. Is it possible Mills is confused and thinks Ron is Vin Baker’s son?

    170. Hubert

      Having all of our 1st round picks going forward gives me peace.

      Give Mills a few weeks. Jahlil Okafor is only 21 years old. He’s probably worth our unprotected pick next year.

    171. english_knick

      Oh my god. I go offline for a few hours, check back expecting a Melo trade and… this.

      This organisation may be the worst-run business in the western world. It is utterly beyond words or comprehension.

    172. Ntilakilla

      Frank, Dotson, Doncic, KP and Willy will be our starting lineup next year.

      I would so roll with that lineup.

    173. d-mar

      Man, I wish Steve Mills was my boss.

      Mills: Ok, we’re done with your review. It’s time to talk dollars and cents.

      Me: Well, I think I’ve done a pretty good job, how about a 5%…

      Mills: Enough! Get out of my office! 10% raise, take it or leave it!

    174. Owen

      Ron Baker isn’t good. I want Ron Baker to be good. I would love for him to be good. But he was objectively terrible last year and is totally unworthy of this contract.

      As always, I am looking forward to being wrong.

    175. english_knick

      KP is going to regress because we’re only going to manage 30 comlpleted offensive possessions per game with 30 backcourt turnovers and the only way we’ll be able to score is if someone throws him the ball 40ft out and he literally just fronts up his man and shoots over him!

    176. chrismcnealy

      Really not sure why people keep bringing up Doncic. We will be bad, but we have young, improving talent (mostly KP and Willy), better team chemistry (assuming melo gone), and a creative (yes, creative) offensive coach who is no longer beholden to an archaic system. we are not getting a top 4 pick next year, let alone the first overall pick.

    177. stratomatic

      After he’s been bashing the guy for a year, in public making it known you were desperate.

      @104 ER

      This whole notion is a fallacy advanced by enemies in the media.

      If you read his words carefully they were not highly critical of Melo. He even called him an elite scorer one time. The worst things he did were to suggest Melo needed to move the ball more (everyone on earth already knew that) and that he thought he had put together a good enough team to win, but they didn’t win. The latter was even a direct shot. It was shot at them all. The rest was spun nonsense by the very journalists I bash on a regular basis for stirring up trouble for no good reason.

      Simply saying that he thought it would be best for both sides if Melo moved on does not diminish his trade value. How do you think trades work? Everyone doesn’t sit around by the phone hoping someone calls with a trade because they don’t want to give away their hand that they might like to move player X. They call up other teams and ask if they would have any interest in player X. Then word gets out that player X is on the block or could be had. Saying it publicly just lets the rest of us peons know what everyone inside the NBA already knows. Phil wants to move on from Melo. He clearly stated in those public comments he wasn’t holding a fire sale.

      He basically did the exact same thing with KP. He let everyone know publicly that KP was not off limits, he fielded calls from everyone, didn’t get the offer he wanted, and took him off the table. Nothing he did diminished KP’s trade value, not even Rosen’s article.

    178. jkhar

      We all wanted to tank for that stud in 2018, and now we are set up to do just that (once we trade Melo).
      We should be happy, no?

    179. kevin5318

      A team that starts Ron Baker at PG will definitely be in contention for a top lottery pick.

      We literally don’t have a PG on the roster with Frank and Ron being combo guards at the stage.

    180. Ntilakilla

      If you read his words carefully they were not highly critical of Melo.

      I have to actually side with er on this one. Phil’s words may have said one thing, but his actions said another. By actively pushing so hard to trade Melo and publicize criticisms about his game Phil contributed to the notion that his star player is toxic and must be moved at all costs. It made our FO look desperate to get rid of him with little regard for value, and this only served lessen our leverage with any potential trade partner. The same went with KP. If you’re going to argue he’s the new face of the franchise, you don’t go around behind his back and look to dangle him like bait after just two years in the league. That’s the kind of stuff a FO does to the D’Angelo Russells of the league, not your future franchise stud. Again, it projects desperation regardless of what Phil specifically says via his surrogate lackey.

    181. er

      @216

      Simple question. If someone has something and you want it, do you think it would cost you more to buy it if they still wanted it or of they were trying to get rid of everything at a fire sale?

      Now the way trades work is that if a team still sees value in something they will have to be moved more to part with it right?

      The selling teams job is to make it seem like they still value the asset even if they dont

    182. chrismcnealy

      @ 218

      you are making a big assumption that the 2017-18 roster is set and that we don’t free up a little cap space via a trade, thereby enabling us to sign rondo or someone else. baker is not a real PG and wasn’t even a PG at wichita st. i’d be very surprised if we don’t get a 1 or 2 year veteran filler at PG, which like it or not will make us less bad next year

    183. Zanzibar

      Knickerblogger BREAKING NEWS Knickerblogger BREAKING NEWS

      Existing Team Optimism is now defunct

      Team Pessimism has been renamed to Team Optimism

      New team formed called Team Utter Metaphysical Despair

    184. latke

      It’s small money so the repercussions are less, but this contract for Baker is every bit as indefensible as the Noah contract.

    185. Hubert

      Really not sure why people keep bringing up Doncic. We will be bad, but we have young, improving talent (mostly KP and Willy), better team chemistry (assuming melo gone), and a creative (yes, creative) offensive coach who is no longer beholden to an archaic system. we are not getting a top 4 pick next year, let alone the first overall pick.

      We’re going to be very bad, and it could definitely be #1 pick in the draft kinda bad. Lots of teams with good, young talent suck. The Thunder had Durant and Westbrook and still sucked enough to get Harden. We don’t have Durant and Westbrook.

    186. TheOakmanCometh

      I heard Noah’s rehab is going well. Is it too early to offer him an extension?

    187. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      I mean a 400-500% overpay plus a player option is absolutely egregious despite it being less impactful because less money

    188. Bruno Almeida

      yeah, as expected didn’t take long for people to try to defend the indefensible.

      it’s not about Ron Baker being fun or trying hard or being bad enough to help the tank, its about a freaking front office giving a player who would barely get the minimum in any other team a 2 year 9 million contract with a player option.

      it shows complete inability to evaluate players AND the market.

    189. Zanzibar

      I heard Noah’s rehab is going well. Is it too early to offer him an extension?

      C’mon don’t be silly. There won’t be any money left for Noah after we max out Kuz.

    190. Hubert

      Tony Wroten is talking to his agent right now: “yo just call the Knicks, see what happens.”

    191. Mike Honcho

      Maybe Mills thinks Anderson isn’t being paid enough, let alone the deplorable lack of a player’s option. In fact, why not amend every contract on the roster to give them all player’s options? If Ron Fucking Baker can have one, why can’t O’Quinn or any of the other actual NBA players as well?

    192. TheOakmanCometh

      C’mon don’t be silly. There won’t be any money left for Noah after we max out Kuz.

      Good point. We’ll have to free up some cash by trading Porzingis. We should be able to dump his salary by attaching our 2018 pick.

    193. TheOakmanCometh

      Maybe Mills thinks a player option is the ability to be a player with women.

      “Can you have a player option? Of course Ronnie, you’re a young single guy, you should go have fun. As long as you show up for practice, you have the option be a playa at night.”

    194. Zanzibar

      Looks like Phil when cleaning out his desk forgot to take his AK47 marijuana. Either that or he left some spiked brownies for Mills as a parting gift.

    195. Jack Bauer

      How many draft picks do you predict Mills will give to Houston along with Melo to pick up Ryan Anderson?

    196. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      I don’t even care that Ron Baker got $5M. Whatever. We overpay people all the time. It’s the fucking player option that pisses me off. What happens if Ron Baker turns into a good basketball player? If he averages 11 points, 6 assists, and 4 rebounds with good scoring splits there is no way he stays in town for another $5M. It’s just terrible management and wow is it annoying.

      Believe you me, I’m officially rooting for Ron Baker to become the white Kyle Lowry, but I’m not pleased with this at all.

    197. Bruno Almeida

      the fact that he would probably accept a minimum offer to stay anyway?

      and the fact that’s he’s not good?

    198. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      @242

      He’s being facetious from when someone said the same thing about the ThJr deal

    199. Z-man

      Ron is gonna be good. I hope he plays well enough to get paid again. Love his passion, work ethic and b-ball IQ. He will figure it out.

    200. Nick C.

      I think in the last few days there have been more posts than can be found in ale game threads combined post all star break.

    201. wetbandit

      This is shaping up to be another Knicks offseason. Yet again proving there’s worse than rock bottom

      – Phil drafts supposed high IQ/ceiling defensive guard over a Rose jr. As we mull this over…

      – Phil fired.

      – (We assume astutely) wait as dominoes fall in free agency

      – We interview a top GM candidate and it comes out that we never were willing to relinquish dysfunctional control to him, so he backs out.

      – Sign Timmy for too much

      – Sign Ron for too much

      I’m now assuming this Melo trade will be somehow worse than the first one. And we sign Rondo who will be a hot locker room mess.

    202. 2FOR18

      ZMAN never disappoints. If loving the knicks is wrong, he doesn’t wanna be right (about anything).

    203. Donnie Walsh

      Ron Baker’s contract is already worth it because it brought us this completely hilarious and enjoyable thread.

    204. xcat01

      Something to ponder, I just read an article that says that since the Knicks used their mid-level exception for Baker that they now only have a minimum contract left to offer Dotson. So this means that Mills thinks that Ron F’n Baker is a better prospect than Dotson. The Knicks are going to be bad for a long time. I miss Donnie Walsh.

    205. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      How about this theory:

      Dotson hasn’t signed a contract yet because if he signs, we have to wait a month until we can trade him and therefore cannot trade him along with Melo to Houston.

    206. JK47

      You think this team sucks now, you ain’t seen nothin’. This gormless chucklefuck is just getting started. Just sit back and enjoy the glorious cascade of shitty decisions that will be made over the next several years.

      I said it the other day: imagine the stupidest, most laughable basketball moves your mind can conjure, then imagine something even worse than that.

    207. Bruno Almeida

      @243

      welp.

      I think Mills reads the Knickerblogger and wanted to prove you can turn even the most optimistic Knicks fans to pessimists in just a couple of moves.

      Z-Man is the last frontier to be conquered!

    208. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      The worst brings out the best in Knickerblogger

      “Gormless Chucklefuck” is an all timer, people

    209. Ntilakilla

      I look at you all, see the love there that’s sleeping
      While my guitar gently weeps
      I look at the floor and I see it needs sweeping
      Still my guitar gently weeps

      I don’t know why nobody told you
      How to unfold your love
      I don’t know how someone controlled you
      They bought and sold you

      I look at the world and I notice it’s turning
      While my guitar gently weeps
      With every mistake we must surely be learning
      Still my guitar gently weeps

      Well…

      I don’t know how you were diverted
      You were perverted too
      I don’t know how you were inverted
      No one alerted you

      I look at you all, see the love there that’s sleeping
      While my guitar gently weeps
      Look at you all
      Still my guitar gently weeps

      Oh, oh
      Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh
      Oh, oh, oh, oh

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
      Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, oh, ooh

    210. stratomatic

      Simple question. If someone has something and you want it, do you think it would cost you more to buy it if they still wanted it or of they were trying to get rid of everything at a fire sale?

      @er

      I think you are missing my point. No one was knocking on the Knicks door looking for a Melo deal. So it was incumbent on Phil to let teams know he was willing to move him. The only thing that mattered after that was whether Phil said Yes or No once he put it in motion, everyone knew, and offers were made.

      The fact that Phil initiated the conversation did not compel him to say yes to any offer that was less than he wanted (as we saw with KP). In fact, he was probably offered deals at the trade deadline but said “No”. So then it came down to whether the other teams thought he was worth more and were willing to up their bids. Guys like Morey don’t care what Phil thinks.

      Now if we are talking about Mills, we may be talking about someone that’s such an extreme idiot in terms of valuing players he might have been stupid enough to say “yes” to a terrible deal. He might still say Yes to a dumb deal.

    211. Jack Bauer

      @ 252 “Z-Man is the last frontier to be conquered!” – I’m betting on Steve Mills
      This shit is just unbelievable. Anyone who thinks we’re building around KP is delusional as he will be leaving this god forsaken franchise the first chance he gets (if Mills hasn’t traded him for a couple of 2nd round picks before he can leave of course).

    212. er

      @255

      Right But you can make it known you are trending towards younger players. U don’t sign rose, Lee and Noah and then single Melo out as the problem.

      There were ways d
      To do a Melo trade, like talking to Melo cuz you know, ya have him a ntc.

      Nah instead wages war in the press via himself and Rosen. And tweeting shit like he learned he can’t change spots on a player. He didn’t even talk yo the guy.

      He’s an aloof dick. And if he was a normal human. He could have gone to Melo and they could have figured it out.

    213. #fireRambis

      Knicks signed Baker to 2/9M deal.. same as Holiday with Bulls deal
      Ron must be happy

    214. Z-man

      All u haterz need to promise me right now that if Ron outplays his contract, you will buy a Ron jersey and wig and wear it to a game…or dinner at Clyde’s Wine n Dine.

    215. xcat01

      @250, you may be right but shouldn’t the Knicks want a young player with talent like Dotson and not trade him away? Oh wait, sorry we are talking about Steve Mills here. Nevermind, let’s throw in a 1st round pick too

    216. JK47

      All u haterz need to promise me right now that if Ron outplays his contract, you will buy a Ron jersey and wig and wear it to a game

      The truly Knicksiest, Dolan’s Razor-est part of the Baker deal is that if he somehow does outplay the contract, he’ll leave.

      Baker had incredible leverage though. I mean, what are you gonna do, NOT have Ron Baker on your team?

    217. Z-man

      2for18, it’s a relief knowing that as long as u post here, I know where the intellectual floor is. You are right about as often as your name suggests.

      Are u old enough to remember who was cut to make room for a guy named Gary Grant? I hated that move at the time because the guy who was cut really impressed me.

      Trust me, Ron will be good.

    218. Donnie Walsh

      Knicks signed Baker to 2/9M deal.. same as Holiday with Bulls deal
      Ron must be happy

      I think the Knicks may have offered Holliday 4/$64,000,000 with a player option and a NTC and that still wasn’t enough to entice him into spending another year at MSG.

    219. stratomatic

      I have an idea. Maybe we should start a new forum called Netblogger. All the competence might be a little boring, but at least we’d have something to look forward to in 2-3 years.

    220. Cock Jowles, Not a Knicks Fan Because Fuck This Team

      I can’t believe they gave Ron Baker a player option. Is this real life?

    221. Bruno Almeida

      Nice aol e-mail Brian! hahaha

      If Baker outplays his contract he’s gone next year, or worse, he opts out and the Knicks have to re-sign him for a lot more money! it’s the deal that keeps on giving!

    222. JK47

      Hey, when you have a chance to secure a mega-talent like Ron Baker you have to do it. Even if it means assuming all the risk with no upside.

      He might have the WS48 of a replacement player that you find off the street, his TOV% might be higher than his AST%, he might have a TS% that looks like Rey Ordonez’ slugging percentage but dude is SCRAPPY. He tries VERY HARD. Z-Man says he is going to be good, isn’t that enough for you people?

    223. ptmilo

      someone do a fan fiction transcript of the FaceTime conversation between tyreke evans and his agent tonight

    224. Bruno Almeida

      he’s probably telling his agent “why the hell didn’t you call the Knicks a week ago????”

    225. 2FOR18

      Ha!. Being called out by ZMan, who has been wrong about everything since I started reading this blog! Whereas I have been right about everything. This is a glorious day!

    226. Donnie Walsh

      I’m still laughing at this:

      Tony Wroten is talking to his agent right now: “yo just call the Knicks, see what happens.”

      (…Because it does kind of seem like reub, upon leaving KB, took up residence in Phil Jackson’s vacated office chair.)

    227. ClashFan

      So, now on ESPN there is a report that Melo threatened to “beat up” THJ last week?

      Fun times!

    228. JK47

      Best parts of offseason: reub banned from Knickerblogger
      Worst parts of offseason: everything else

    229. ClashFan

      @279
      A contract equal to that of the #4 pick in the 2016 draft. The draft he was not chosen in.

    230. DRed

      Int. Steve Mills Office:

      Ron Baker’s Agent: “Steve, thanks so much for agreeing to meet with us, we were hoping we coul-”

      Steve Mills: “how about 9 million for two years”

      RBA: “dollars??”

      SM: “You drive a hard bargain, how about we make the second year a player option”

    231. stratomatic

      The Baker deal is so ridiculous, my conspiratorial side is starting to play games with me. I started wondering if a few player agents have something on Mills and/or Dolan and are extracting blackmail via excessive contracts. The other possibility is that Mills has a relationship with some of the agents and is illegally getting a piece of the action for the amount overpaid.

      I mean seriously, the THJ contract was excessive, but you could at least explain how they got there. Maybe you think THJ is a little better than Waiters. So he’s worth a little more than him. Then you figure you have to overpay a little to make sure Atlanta doesn’t match. So if you overestimate what Atlanta might be willing to pay, you might incompetently get to 71 million.

      But how do you get to Baker’s salary?

      If I understand it correctly, they could have had him for the 1.5m qualifying offer and wound up paying more than 4m. That should literally be a investigated by the league office. It’s so ridiculous it’s actually reasonable to suspect corruption.

      If it’s not blackmail you have to wonder what Dolan is thinking.

      I assume he at least reads the newspaper and watches TV or listens to the call in shows. At some point even a blathering idiot should be able to figure out something is wrong.

    232. rama

      I will join Team Utter Metaphysical Despair if we trade Lee for Okafor. When I saw JOwles’s new name, that’s what I assumed had happened. Overpay Timmy? Stupid, but whatever. Player option to Ron Fucking Baker? Laughable, but whatever. Add Okafor? Are you freaking out of your mind???

    233. DRed

      This is so weird I can’t even be mad. Good for Ron. I wonder if Steve Mills would give me 3 million dollars if I wrote a nice letter asking him.

    234. Zanzibar

      Maybe I’m missing something but I read we’re only able to offer Dotson about 1.4m now? If so, wouldn’t he take a 1 year deal and hit the market next summer? Dude shot 44% from 3 in college and 48% from 3 in summer league on 25 attempts. He’s able to knock down 3s even while Dray’s kicking him in the balls or Tony Allen’s breathing on his eyeballs. He spots up and shoots well off screens. He rebounded and passed well. He showed some talent on the PnR. I think I’d rather take a chance and pay this guy 4m for 4 years than Ron 4.5m/yr and risk losing Dotson after 1 year.

    235. Cock Jowles, Not a Knicks Fan Because Fuck This Team

      Int. Steve Mills Office:

      Ron Baker’s Agent: “Steve, thanks so much for agreeing to meet with us, we were hoping we coul-”

      Steve Mills: “how about 9 million for two years”

      RBA: “dollars??”

      SM: “You drive a hard bargain, how about we make the second year a player option”

      I laughed so hard Lady Jowles asked what was up

      But mostly I’m laughing because I’m sad and this might have actually happened and I am very sad

    236. Reyalblue

      I wonder if there is a way to force Mills, and more importantly Dolan, out as decision makers for the Knicks by way of the publicly traded MSG Networks and MSG Co. While I am certain the Dolan family holds controlling shares in both publicly traded companies, there must be a way for the minority share holders in each company to reasonably and through legal means demonstrate that the mismanagement of the Knicks jeopardizes the financial future of MSG Networks, by potentially leading to lower viewership and therefore less incentive for Cable providers to pay the fee to carry it, and in MSG Co by potentially leading to reduced attendance at the Garden and a lower possible valuation of the team. The Knicks and anything associated with the team are by far the biggest assets for both financial entities.

    237. JK47

      James Dolan is about 62 years old. Al Davis died when he was 82. By my math, James Dolan will die in 2037.

      That’s our next window.

    238. Owen

      That’s a funny tweet. With 9 million he can upgrade that Sonata, even if it is the last contract he gets…..

      Good thread people….

    239. d-mar

      So let me get this straight:

      If Ron Baker sux (high probability) he exercises his player option and we overpay him for one more season.

      If Ron Baker plays well (low probability) he opts out of his contract and signs with us or someone else for more $$.

      Sounds like a win-win…..for Ron Baker. He should give his agent half his salary.

    240. Kevin Udwary

      Seriously DRed, if there was ever a time for you to be hired as the GM it is now. Mills is making the job so toxic, nobody with any experience will ever take it.

    241. JK47

      The Knicks also gave a player option to the unknown Chris Copeland for no fucking reason whatsoever. When he played really well as a rookie, big surprise, he opted out of the second year of his contract, and the Knicks traded their 2016 first round pick for Andrea Bargnani, because the East was big, man.

    242. KBrazilian

      The Knicks will be immensely fun to root for this season. Ron Baker, Tim Hardaway Jr, Kristaps Porzingis, and Willy Hernangomez might not win a bunch of games, but we know they will play hard and unselfish basketball on both ends. I like this roster so far but I hate the contracts so much.

      @200

      I can confirm Reub has hacked massive’s account.

    243. TheOakmanCometh

      Denver cut Mike Miller to create $5 mil in cap space. I think we all know what mop-headed hustlebunny they were trying to throw that money at. Well you’re too late, suckas, we locked him up!

    244. Bruno Almeida

      Pelicans are reportedly negotiating a trade to bring Reggie Jackson to the team… right after they gave Holiday 126 million, they are about to take 3 years 52 million on Jackson’s contract.

      at least we still have some other franchises to make fun of.

    245. Zanzibar

      Won’t we just sign Dotson to the same amount as Willy?

      Will Dotson take 1.4m/yr for 4 years like Willy did? He played really well in Summer League shooting 48% from 3 on 25 attempts. He might decide to take only 1 year at 1.4m figuring he’d be able to get at least 2.5m/yr from some team next summer. Even if his only skill were to be knocking down 3s at 40%, he’d probably receive that from some team. Shooting 3s is so valued in today’s NBA that I’d probably take the risk if I were Dotson. The risk to him is foregoing 4.2m guaranteed money over years 2-4 which is a lot of money when it’s your first contract.

    246. JK47

      Nobody hated on Derrick Rose more than me. I hated the Derrick Rose trade the moment it was announced, I hated watching Derrick Rose play all year long, and I really, really did not want Derrick Rose back on the team next year. But.

      Derrick Rose did not play well last year. He certainly did not play like a guy who was worth $21M. But he did play 2,000+ minutes of .068 WS48 basketball. His backup Brandon Jennings was not too good either, but Jennings did manage another 1,400+ minutes of .052 WS48 basketball. That’s poor production from your two point guards.

      We’ll be lucky if we sniff anything near that level of production with Ron “Scrappy Doo” Baker and the 19-year old kid Frank Nkilitina running the point next year. We took a position that was a position of weakness and managed to substantially downgrade it. Rose and Jennings aren’t GOOD point guards at the NBA level, but they ARE point guards at the NBA level. Baker isn’t, and my guess is that right now Ntilikina isn’t. Point guard is going to be a black hole for the 2017-2018 Knicks.

      This is going to be a legit bad team. So, uh, yay? Let’s get excited about rooting for this team to lose YET AGAIN so we can have some faint hope of drafting Luka Doncic, only to have it dashed by a Tim Hardaway Jr. hot streak in April that causes us to win 31 games instead of 28, making sure we get the #7 pick instead of a top 3 pick?

      This shit is fucking bleak.

    247. Reyalblue

      Knicks need to go and get Dave Hopla to work with Baker and Hardaway Jr. from now until the season begins. Only way these contracts will make sense is if these two guys are made into great shooters.

    248. bockadoo

      Is it possible they’re paying Baker this much to make a trade work? Is that a dumb question?

    249. Mike R

      Tony Wroten is talking to his agent right now: “yo just call the Knicks, see what happens.”

      Lmao I think Anthony Randolph might be doing the same

    250. Mike R

      I know the money is not much so this may be a little of an exaggeration but this might be the worst contract this team has ever given out and that’s saying something. Yeh it’s only 9 million so it’s not cap crippling but I don’t think I’ve ever been as confused by a knicks contract as I am right now.

      When will we get something right? When can we collectively on this site say wow that was a good move?

      Never.

    251. Bruno Almeida

      @307

      unless the contract is part of a sign and trade (which it isn’t), I think he cannot be traded until December 15, as the Knicks renounced his rights and then signed him as they would any free agent.

    252. #fireRambis

      so Pelicans will have Holiday and Jackson at the back with Boogie and Brow up front

      ring the Pelicans GM now

    253. Mike R

      Mills: “I’ll give you Melo for Anderson and a first round pick”

      Morey: “No”

      Mills: “I’ll give you Melo and a first round pick for Anderson”

      Morey: “okay”

      Mills: “I’m getting good at this”

    254. Zanzibar

      We might clear some space for Dotson when we trade Melo.

      Yes that’s a possibility or maybe give Kuz away for free. One thing I didn’t mention is that if Dotson took a 1 year deal it wouldn’t be guaranteed. I don’t think that’s much of a risk in his case unless he tears an ACL because he apparently impressed scouts from other teams during Summer League. That Summer League performance might really complicate matters for the Knicks. They could regret giving Ron that 9m if Dotson takes a 1 year deal. So when people say that 4.3m is no big deal, well it could turn out to be very important.

    255. Bruno Almeida

      @313

      I’m not completely sure because the NBA allows teams to re-sign their own expiring players and instantly trade them, so there might be a window there (in the sense that Ron never went to a different team and the Knicks only renounced the rights to give him a qualifying offer)… but yeah, hes staying with the Knicks.

      and yeah, it might be overreaction for what is a small contract, but there’s no other possible reaction to how stupid the negotiations for this contract must have been.

    256. Mike R

      @316

      It’s not a crazy amount of money by today’s salary cap but it makes no fucking sense. While I thought hardaways contract was ridiculous it can at least be somewhat justified (except for the trade kicker). This baker deal is just something that represents the incompetence that has surrounded this franchise for what seems like forever. Pretty much anyone on this board might be able to do a better job then mills. They just make so many moves that make no sense.

    257. GoNyGoNyGo

      I was busy all day and didn’t get a chance to come here and add my sentiments until now.

      W
      T
      F
      ??????

    258. Reyalblue

      At least one other person will be happy about Baker getting this contract – Marcus Smart.

    259. Reyalblue

      @317

      If that’s true, then Baker’s contract would make the three team Knicks, Houston and Portland trade work

    260. BigBlueAL

      Not to take away from the hilarious comments about the Ron Baker signing but just thought I should mention that judging from watching and mainly reading a bunch of stuff on the Vegas Summer League the 2 guys who have gotten the most praise so far are Dennis Smith Jr and Donovan Mitchell. But I’m sure Frank won’t make us regret drafting him instead of either of them…

    261. Donnie Walsh

      I’m no pro basketball player, but I’m hiring Ron Baker’s agent tomorrow.

      This folk hero seems to be some nameless entity that has no internet presence whatsoever. Kind of weird for a guy that just pulled off the greatest single coup in sports-agent history.

      I wonder if he communicates with Mills via a shoe-phone, and demanded that Baker’s monthly salary be deposited under the 59th street bridge in only uncirculated $2 bills.

    262. Mike Honcho

      My bet is that Henry Kissinger came out of retirement and strongarmed Mills into giving Ron Baker a utterly unearned contract. That, or Ron Baker sold his soul to the devil a la Belicheck.

    263. BigBlueAL

      The thing about KCP after looking at his stats is I had no idea he was such a bad shooter. TH Jr is much better offensively. KCP better be a great defender to make up for his poor shooting.

    264. the don nelson era

      If the Knicks were giving Baker a one-year salary to make a trade work… why include the player option?

    265. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      @329

      Probably just to do him a solid since he’s by all accounts well liked and a hard worker

    266. Donnie Walsh

      Baker can’t be traded until December 15th (…at which point I’m sure the phones at MSG will start ringing off the hook)

    267. Brian Cronin

      Not to take away from the hilarious comments about the Ron Baker signing but just thought I should mention that judging from watching and mainly reading a bunch of stuff on the Vegas Summer League the 2 guys who have gotten the most praise so far are Dennis Smith Jr and Donovan Mitchell. But I’m sure Frank won’t make us regret drafting him instead of either of them…

      Summer League is specifically where guys like Mitchell tend to dominate, since that one year of extra development tends to be a big deal over their younger peers (and the older players they’re playing against are usually scrubs, like Memphis’ backcourt last night was Wayne Selden, who’s a scrub and Wade Baldwin IV, who did not particularly impress anyone as a rookie last year). It’s why Dotson’s play has to also be taken with a big grain of salt, as well, since he’s even older than Mitchell as a rookie. Don’t get me wrong, in both cases, it is better that they played well than if they did not play well. It just is not a huge indicator either way. Mitchell could be a star (or an otherwise good player – like Jeremy Lin played very well as an old rookie at Summer League and he turned out to be a good player), but this could be a bit of a mirage. He plays like this when we get to training camp, then, yeah, he’s probably legit. I am sure that the Jazz are pumped either way, of course, as well they should be.

      Smith is a different story, as he was likely going to be good out of the gate and he is – doesn’t mean he was a better pick than Frank, who will take longer to develop but could be a better player in the long run. For instance, recall Michael Carter Williams winning Rookie of the Year at age 22 vs. 19 year old Giannis Antetokounmpo being an afterthought. Out of 620 possible votes for Rookie of the Year that year, MCW got 569…Giannis got 1 (THJ got 23 votes, including one person who voted him 1st overall).

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