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Thursday, September 21, 2017

Knicks Morning News (2017.07.10)

  • [ESPN] Source: Griffin pulls out of Knicks’ GM search
    (Sunday, July 09, 2017 4:08:13 PM)

    Source: Griffin pulls out of Knicks’ GM search

  • [SNY Knicks] Former Cavs GM Griffin withdraws name from Knicks’ consideration
    (Sunday, July 09, 2017 5:26:39 PM)

    Former Cleveland Cavaliers GM David Griffin reportedly took his name out of the New York Knicks’ front-office search.

  • [NYPost] Firing Phil Jackson only enabled another henchman to ruin Knicks
    (Sunday, July 09, 2017 3:52:23 PM)

    It is perpetual midnight around the Knicks, a darkness that knows no bounds and respects no borders. It is a cruel truth for a city that feels as deeply and as passionately about basketball as New York does. We might call these desperate hours if not for the fact this mess is way, way, way…

  • [NYPost] Knicks GM target backs away as Steve Mills is grabbing power
    (Sunday, July 09, 2017 12:23:45 PM)

    Former Cavaliers general manager David Griffin is not joining the Knicks — a surprise development that is another boost for Steve Mills to maintain the permanent presidency, according to an NBA source. The Post confirmed an Undefeated report Griffin pulled his name from the Knicks’ search after a Friday dinner with Mills, who is the…

  • [NYPost] It looks like Phil Jackson’s enjoying life after Knicks
    (Sunday, July 09, 2017 6:08:22 AM)

    Phil Jackson is either counting his $100 bills or wanting to make sure Knicks fans know he’s at peace despite the franchise ditching his beloved triangle. Jackson

  • [NY Newsday] David Griffin pulls name from Knicks’ front-office search, source says
    (Sunday, July 09, 2017 8:44:58 PM)

    David Griffin has removed his name from consideration for the Knicks’ front-office vacancy, a league source familiar with the situation said.

  • [NYTimes] N.B.A. Summer League Produces Buzz (Lonzo Ball) and Panic (Markelle Fultz)
    (Sunday, July 09, 2017 8:30:54 PM)

    The exhibition showcase usually has lots of empty seats. Not this time.

  • [NYTimes] Knicks’ Search to Replace Phil Jackson Loses Some Steam
    (Sunday, July 09, 2017 11:30:39 PM)

    David Griffin, the former general manager of the Cleveland Cavaliers, is said to have withdrawn his name from consideration less than 48 hours after meeting with the Knicks.

  • [NYDN] David Griffin wanted Allan Houston removed as Knicks assistant GM
    (Sunday, July 09, 2017 7:23:55 PM)

    The search continues for a new Knicks executive.

  • [NYDN] David Griffin is anti-Phil Jackson, exposes problem with Knicks
    (Sunday, July 09, 2017 7:21:32 PM)

    David Griffin proved to be the anti-Phil Jackson without having to spend a single day at the World’s Most Dysfunctional Arena.

  • 235 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.07.10)

    1. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      I’m willing to give Steve Mills a chance just because he’s seen the mistakes Jackson and Thomas made close up. The Melo trade will tell us everything we need to know.

    2. lavor postell

      Mills will probably do a bad job as the top decision maker in the Knicks FO because that’s how things usually work with the Knicks, but I’m not very upset that Griffin didn’t get that power. I don’t think he’s awful, but I think his best skill as a GM is being creative in getting deals done, not actually making great deals.

      If Mills just wants somebody to perform day-to-day functions while he retains final say on all personnel matters then he should look lower down the NBA totem pole. No experienced lead exec is coming to MSG to be the 2nd in command to Steve Mills.

    3. Brian Cronin

      Mills will probably do a bad job as the top decision maker in the Knicks FO because that’s how things usually work with the Knicks, but I’m not very upset that Griffin didn’t get that power. I don’t think he’s awful, but I think his best skill as a GM is being creative in getting deals done, not actually making great deals.

      I thought you were really high on Griffin? Didn’t you put a lot of faith behind West being big on Griffin?

      If Mills just wants somebody to perform day-to-day functions while he retains final say on all personnel matters then he should look lower down the NBA totem pole. No experienced lead exec is coming to MSG to be the 2nd in command to Steve Mills.

      Totally agreed. This is where the philosophy of Dolan is really weird. They’re looking for someone to work under Steve Mills, who was knocked in a lot of quarters for his lack of experience when he was brought back to the Knicks organization (after leaving his President of MSG gig following the sexual harassment lawsuit going pear-shaped for the Knicks) and took over as GM from Glen Grunwald (before Phil was hired to take over from him that same year). So you’d have to be pretty low on the totem pole to want to work under Mills. However, Dolan also wants a “name” to take the job. It’s practically the epitome of how bass-ackwards this organization is. “We need a famous GM, but he has to be willing to work under an inexperienced President of Basketball Operations who has his job mostly because he’s loyal to Dolan.”

    4. Totes McGoats

      Reading those “GM search” articles put some serious disdain in my heart for the Knicks. Everything sounds so awful. As a Knicks fan, we’ve all said some form of “I’m done!” a few times, but loyalty to something you’ve loved and supported for so long is hard to shake. So you go right back high hopes and scary drops. Especially during Dolan’s tenure. Sheesh! I’ve always felt there had to be some sort of evil permeating the Knicks executive offices, but I didn’t know it was THIS BAD until now. I think it’s time for Silver to step in the way Stern stepped in for the N.O. Hornets. Something has got to give..I mean NYK is a flagship franchise in the NBA! And no league can or should be able to survive with flagship franchises being so..corrupted. I just don’t know what to say anymore..

    5. Brian Cronin

      By the way, speaking of how much everything is really just a big ol “boys club,” when the Knicks replaced Grunwald with Mills, David Stern was fine with it…because Mills worked under him years ago. One hand washing the other’s back.

    6. Brian Cronin

      Oh, and in the past I’ve said that the only thing I knew about Mills as a basketball mind (before the THJ deal) was the Lowry trade that Dolan squelched, but I totally forgot that I know another, much sadder thing – he was the guy who convinced Dolan to hire Zeke as President of Basketball Operations back when Mills was in charge of MSG. So…..yeah.

    7. Brian Cronin

      Here’s an interesting question – has Berman been supportive of Mills so far? People used to think that it was Mills (or someone close to Mills) who was Berman’s main source in the Knicks’ front office (remember those Berman articles that started criticizing Jackson out of nowhere that seemed clearly pushed by another Knick executive?), so it will be interesting to see how Berman is handling Mills’ reign so far. If he’s harsh, then Mills probably wasn’t his source.

    8. Frank

      I missed most of the discussion yesterday but my thoughts on the Griffin kerfuffle:

      1 – I’d rather have a well respected GM/POBO come and clean house, ie. Masai.

      2 – If that’s not going to happen, then I’m fine with Steve Mills for now. I don’t really know much about him from a basketball standpoint other than 4 specific moves:

      a) the Kyle Lowry trade he tried to do (something like Shump, MWP, and a 2018 first of some sort) which in retrospect would have been an extremely lopsided deal in our favor.

      b) this THJ offer sheet, which isn’t great, but isn’t the worst thing in the world either.

      c) he had something to do with firing Phil Jackson –> GREAT!! There probably wasn’t anything anyone could have done that improved the image of the Knicks more with players/agents.

      d) he has disavowed the triangle and allowed Hornacek to do whatever he wants.

      I honestly would rather Dolan just come out and say that Mills will be running the show, and we can leave all this bad press behind. Based on his record (under Lebron-duress or not), Griffin of all GMs is not someone we should be getting all worked up about, as many of us have said.

    9. lavor postell

      I thought you were really high on Griffin? Didn’t you put a lot of faith behind West being big on Griffin?

      I did, but after really looking through his time with Cleveland I became ambivalent. I don’t think it’d have been a bad hire or necessarily a slam dunk and he doesn’t have experience as the top decision maker for a team in position for a long term rebuild so in that particular circumstance he’s a bit of a novice.

      However, Dolan also wants a “name” to take the job. It’s practically the epitome of how bass-ackwards this organization is. “We need a famous GM, but he has to be willing to work under an inexperienced President of Basketball Operations who has his job mostly because he’s loyal to Dolan.”

      Right. I don’t blame Mills for not hiring a guy that he’d have had to cede control of basketball ops too to bring on board. Most people aren’t going to give up that type of power when they have it. This all stems from Dolan’s over the top loyalty to certain people and then empowering them to the fullest degree. Hopefully Mills is the smartest crony in the building.

    10. Brian Cronin

      Right. I don’t blame Mills for not hiring a guy that he’d have had to cede control of basketball ops too to bring on board. Most people aren’t going to give up that type of power when they have it. This all stems from Dolan’s over the top loyalty to certain people and then empowering them to the fullest degree. Hopefully Mills is the smartest crony in the building.

      Oh yeah, totally agreed there. It’s like the recent debate about Melo. I don’t blame Melo for taking the Knicks for everything that they give him. It’s their responsibility to not be morons. Similarly, if Dolan is giving Mills total control, I don’t begrudge Mills for not wanting to give that up. Who would in his position?

    11. Brian Cronin

      I honestly would rather Dolan just come out and say that Mills will be running the show,

      But then that would take away from their ability to scapegoat whoever they hire as GM. And hiring people as buffers for the masses to blame instead of the top dogs is a big part about what the Knicks do here. They’re not going to just kick that to the curb.

    12. lavor postell

      I wish they’d just promote Warkentien into that role. He seems perfectly fine being a subservient yes man in the Knicks front office, but he also has experience in the position and in Denver seemed like a bright enough guy.

    13. Brian Cronin

      I wish they’d just promote Warkentien into that role. He seems perfectly fine being a subservient yes man in the Knicks front office, but he also has experience in the position and in Denver seemed like a bright enough guy.

      But he might be enough of a crony himself that they don’t want to scapegoat him. Notice that Allan Houston doesn’t seem to be getting the gig, either, as he’s Mills’ guy and Mills must know that this is not a good gig to have, since he likely plans on scapegoating whoever gets it.

    14. lavor postell

      True they need an outside player to come in and to pay him enough to make it worthwhile. Justin Zanik might be somebody they could entice after he got screwed out of the Bucks job.

    15. Brian Cronin

      Yeah, he sounds like a good idea. He might end up being so smart that he even convinces Dolan to give him more responsibility!

      By the way, the Bucks ownership situation is a nice reminder that lots of teams have fucked up douchey owners. :)

    16. Z-man

      English, I’m not saying that Dolan or Mills are being smart. As Clint Eastwood said, a man’s got to know his limitations. But an owner has the right and the power to set the conditions for employment. He/she also must take full responsibility for the consequences of his/her decisions, whether directly or by designee. As such, I don’t care that much about the autonomy issue on its face.

    17. Z-man

      The problem with Dolan is that he makes unsound decisions in general in regard to the Knicks. He doesn’t have the judgment of more successful hands-on owners, like Mark Cuban. He gets away with it because his arena sells out every night and his franchise is the most valuable one in the NBA despite the poor record and PR circus.

      He’s not Donald Sterling bad, and somehow the Rangers are relatively well-run and drama-free. I disagree with the handling of the POBO search, but I don’t see anything unethical about insisting on more control on either end with Griffin.

    18. english_knick

      Z – agreed. The point I was trying to make has been made more eloquently for me by others this morning. Mills seems to want the top job and the power and salary that go with it – but to hire a ‘name’ to blame when it all goes wrong. But if the ‘name’ is anyone worth having they will never agree to that because they are getting accountability but no control. That’s more about Mills’ role that Dolan’s – I’m in total agreement the owner should expect the ultimate say in decisions…

    19. Frank

      what’s become obvious is that Dolan lucked out with Glen Sather and that’s why the Rangers have been good.

      he did not luck out with Phil Jackson.

      the other issue with Dolan is his misguided sense of loyalty. He just can’t let these cronies go.

    20. Ingmarrrr

      @1 I’m willing to give Steve Mills a chance just because he’s seen the mistakes Jackson and Thomas made close up.

      Mills has been with Dolan for how long? When an employee works under a boss he usually internalize his principles. So Noah and Rose and TH2 are not mistakes for him. They are part of his best practices.

    21. Frank

      @20 – to be fair, Noah and Rose are on Phil Jackson’s ledger, not Mills.

      THJ is all Mills, and we’ll see how that turns out.

      I’m willing to see how Mills does. At the very least, he’s always had the reputation of having good relations with players and agents, and now the other GMs know who to call as opposed to the Phil years.

    22. Brian Cronin

      Don’t forget that Mills is the guy who convinced Dolan to hire Isiah (I say that because I actually forgot it myself until today). That’s got to be a huge deficit on his ledger. :)

    23. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      People are forgetting that Mills stepped back in to be the POBO in 2014 but let Phil Jackson take the job because Dolan said so. He’s been very loyal to Dolan and now it’s his turn to run the organization as the top dog. Quite frankly, I trust Mills, Gabriel, Warkentein, Gaines Jr, Hornacek, and the rest of our scouting staff. We were headed in the right direction until Dolan forced the Bargnani trade on us, and this time we’re going forward without the win-now impetus that having Carmelo Anthony imposed upon us. As long as we don’t bring in a former player/coach and get somebody out of a smart FO, I’m good. We’re probably looking for another Glen Grunwald.

    24. Frank

      Getting a little nervous about this Melo deal, which in my mind was already done between Hou/NYK/Portland. The guy who has been pushing it the hardest (@JSports_ent) isn’t backing off but now seems unsure that Portland is the 3rd team. That feels like going back to square 1.

    25. Brian Cronin

      It has got to be the whole Ryan Anderson sticking point. The only realistic way that they get Melo is by using Anderson (as they’re not giving up Ariza or Capela and that prevents them from matching salary otherwise) and the trick, of course, is finding someone who wants Anderson enough to give up something worthwhile for him. Doesn’t that actually sound really hard to believe? That any third team would give up something good enough for Anderson that it would be worth it to the Knicks to deal Melo? So what it seems like JSports_ent is really saying is that the Rockets would take Melo right now for Anderson, which is why he is sticking with “Melo will be a Rocket,” as the Rockets are currently motivated to get Melo, but they just can’t find anyone to trade Anderson to for the Knicks.

    26. ess-dog

      The Sixers would be a good fit for Anderson if they still have the space. Saric isn’t ready/that good imo and they could get another pick out of it.

      They should just make Houston the GM now and go full croney. Mills can do all the hard stuff and Allan just needs to chill with the players. Seriously, who cares at this point anyway?

    27. ess-dog

      Also, as impressive as DSJ was on offense, his man was like 7-9 and 5-5 from three (in summer league) so keep some perspective.

    28. lavor postell

      The sticking point I’m guessing is that Portland wants one more asset to deal.

      Let’s assume the main moving parts here are NYK gets Harkless and Leonard, HOU gets Melo and POR gets Anderson with some cap fillers moving around to fill in the blanks. Portland probably wants 2 assets/picks attached since they’re giving up Harkless, a good young player on a fair deal locked in and another for facilitating the entire deal by taking on Anderson’s trash contract. I’m guessing NYK is fine as long as they get Harkless and dump Melo with Leonard as the cost of doing business but young enough that they’ll roll with it with some 2nd rounders or some shit like that coming their way.

      We know that there was also some steam that Houston was trying to package their non-guaranteed contracts in some manner to get an asset from somewhere. That seems like the missing piece to get this done and so if we get news that Morey gets that done I’d expect a Melo deal to follow closely after.

    29. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      One of these teams with a new point guard should have some desire to grab Ryan Anderson. He creates space for your young pup to drive and kick.

    30. Z-man

      I’d take Anderson back if packaged with a couple of unprotected 1st’s. otherwise, why not just roll with Melo?

    31. Ntilakilla

      Like I wrote yesterday, I am fine with Mills so long as he recognizes the need for continuity on important matters regarding our young core, which he seems to be in accord with. The rebuild must move along as planned and the mission moving forward is to allow Hornacek to coach; KP, Willy and Frank to develop; and continuing to draft talent around that group.

    32. Donnie Walsh

      Notice that Allan Houston doesn’t seem to be getting the gig, either, as he’s Mills’ guy and Mills must know that this is not a good gig to have, since he likely plans on scapegoating whoever gets it.

      This is such a good point, I think you’re probably right.

    33. ClashFan

      If Houston is willing to give up a decent piece or two (maybe Hartenstein and a #1 pick), why not just deal directly with them and take Anderson plus whatever expirings are needed to finish the deal?

      Perhaps Houston senses the Knicks’ desperation and won’t give anything, though. Anderson doesn’t do much, but he can shoot threes, and the Knicks are going nowhere for the next 3 years, so you can almost look at the deal as 1. dumping Melo and 2. renting cap space for a good asset or two. The Knicks might even get some minor cap space as a result to sign that veteran PG.

      I hate Rondo, but it is looking more likely that he may be here for a year.

      BTW, Brian may be right about the whole GM thing. Why not just promote Allan Houston, already? Well, b/c Mills wants the new GM to be a future scapegoat if things don’t go well.

    34. Donnie Walsh

      @20 – to be fair, Noah and Rose are on Phil Jackson’s ledger, not Mills.

      THJ is all Mills, and we’ll see how that turns out.

      But Mills was the GM for all the moves of the Jackson era. Considering Jackson didn’t really want the job or to do any work, why assume Mills had no role?

      I think Brian nailed it. They want a lightning rod for when things don’t go well (which they inevitably won’t). Mills is a businessman, not a basketballman. He knows what he’s doing. (It’s just not what he should be doing.)

    35. ClashFan

      @35
      I’ve read that Phil just said “yea or nay” and did little else except preach his weird philosophy. As GM, Mills made all the calls, did negotiating, etc. So, likely he did have some role/say in what happened. Phil has to take responsibility for it all, but who knows how much Mills might have had an impact. For all we know, he set up the Rose trade, and Phil just said yes.

      We can be hopeful that he’ll retain Phil’s good side (avoid trading #1 picks, draft well, esp. with an eye to Europe), while avoiding Phil’s bad side (pretty much everything else). But his first big deal is a shaky one…

    36. d-mar

      It’s kind of funny how when we talk about smart owners and dumb owners, Mark Cuban automatically falls into the smart category. Meanwhile, since the Mavs won it all in 2011, what has he really done that would rank him as a good owner? They haven’t gotten out of the 1st round since, and also haven’t been able to attract big name free agents. And their best players right now are Harrison Barnes and Wes Matthews.

      Of course, I’d trade our owner for theirs in a millisecond, but then again I’d trade our owner for anyone smarter than him, which is roughly 99% of the population.

    37. swiftandabundant

      Count me in on just letting Mills do the job and sink or swim on his own without a fall guy to blame it on when/if things go wrong.

      @ 36 – even if that was true, the yay or nay by Phil most definitely dictated what kind of deals Mills was going for and pursued. There is no way Phil did not influence what Mills would seek out when it came to trades, etc.

      Mills has been around and knows the failures of this organizations. He also knows the weird mind of our owner. The little he has said since Phil left has been encouraging. Get younger, build around Zinger, get more athletic, get team oriented players. And I know a lot of people HATE the THJ signing but if we are going to sign any free agents, he is the type of player we should target….a young, athletic, improving player that fits with our young core’s timeline. I’m not of the belief that we should totally rebuild JUST through the draft. I think a move like the Hardaway signing could be a great move for us. We shall see.

      If we bring in a big name and continue to flounder it just gives MSG another fall guy. Let Mills and Houston run the show and let them succeed or fail in their name. Best case scenario they’ve learned from the mistakes of past regimes and will build a good team. Worst case they fail like our other regimes but since its them that fails, they will be out for good.

    38. Ingmarrrr

      @36

      Noah, Rose, and TH2 are so much the same type of move, there has to be a similar philosophy behind all of them.

    39. swiftandabundant

      @ 39 – Really?

      Rose and Noah – former great players brought in because they are big names (former MVP, former DPOY) and they played on really good teams (Chicago). Brought in for their past performance and for their name value and leadership. Signed them when they were past their prime but in the hopes that they could either recapture some of that past glory or give enough of their old self to be worth it. Moves to appease Melo and “win now.” Also, Rose was acquired by having to deal a really good asset (Lopez) and to get rid of a bad player (Calderon)

      THJ – young player, relatively unknown, but improved every single year he’s been in the league. Signed before he enters his prime years. This was a move not just for this upcoming season but for 2, 3 or 4 years from now. No players or assets were given up for him.

      I don’t think they are similar at all.

    40. Ntilakilla

      Yeah, as much as I hate the THJ signing it would be a mistake to categorize it as similar to the Rose/Noah deals beyond the fact that we grossly overpaid for each by bidding against ourselves. Rose and Noah were washed up players living on their press clippings. THJ at least seems to be entering peak years of his career.

    41. swiftandabundant

      @ 41 – we did not bid against ourselves to get Hardaway! This is another thing I’ve read people say on this site and its NOT TRUE. We were literally overpaying him so the Hawks would not match the offer. So we were bidding against the Hawks and we had a fairly good idea what they were willing to spend to bring him back. So Mills gave Hardaway a really big offer…big enough to know that the Hawks would not match it. So yes, its an overpay but we were worried about the Hawks matching the offer. Ive read people say “oh we shouldn’t have done the trade kicker or it should have been a max of 60 million total” but if we did that then we run the risk of the Hawks matching.

      Again, you can dislike the signing but to say its similar to signing Noah or that we were bidding “against ourselves”…both of these statements are not true.

    42. Farfa

      Well yes, THJ’s deal is a massive overpay but:

      Chandler Parsons: 23,1 mln
      Victor Oladipo: 21 mln
      Allen Crabbe: 18,5 mln
      Kent Bazemore: 16,9 mln
      Reggie Jackson: 16 mln

      At least we’re not alone.

    43. Donnie Walsh

      Count me in on just letting Mills do the job and sink or swim on his own

      Get ready for a lot of sinking and not much swimming.

    44. briand

      What happens with Lee now that we signed thjr?

      Teams know we have to trade him and offer us cents on the dollar would be my guess.

    45. Bruno Almeida

      @42

      people have been saying the Knicks bid against themselves because reports came out saying Atlanta was not willing to go over 45 million for him.

      everyone understands that you have to overpay to get RFAs, but this much? I’m 100% sure if the offer was like 70 million, no option, no trade kicker, the Hawks certainly wouldn’t have matched, but the Knicks love stupid clauses it seems.

    46. Cock Jowles, Not a Knicks Fan Because Fuck This Team

      The only argument for keeping Carmelo is that he’s expiring. There is absolutely no basketball-related reasons to keep him. He plays a selfish brand of old-hat basketball that does not work in today’s NBA. Players like Harden, Westbrook and Giannis have adapted. Carmelo has not and will not. Plus, he’s old.

    47. Cock Jowles, Not a Knicks Fan Because Fuck This Team

      So yes, its an overpay but we were worried about the Hawks matching the offer.

      Why would “we” be worried about the Hawks matching the offer? It was a terrible offer. If anything, “we” should have been worried that the Hawks wouldn’t match. In that case, “we” would stand to lose, since THJ is not very good and is about to become both overpaid AND untradeable.

    48. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      I would take cents on the dollar, honestly.

      Call me crazy, but I’m excited to see what TH2, Willy Hernangomez, and KP develop into under Jeff Hornacek. It makes me proud knowing that, sink or swim, it’s likely that we will be starting at least 3 guys (4 if Frank surprises in pre season) that we drafted all over the draft. KP was a top 5 guy, Willy was a early second rounder, and TH2 went 24th overall. Overpay or not, I’m glad he came back to us a better player overall. If we get Harkless, there is an opportunity that for the first time in forever, the Knicks would have 5 starters age 25 and under. Ntilikina, Hardaway Jr, Harkless, Porzingis, and Herangomez is a team I could really get behind. Luckily we’re capped out so Mills or anybody else can’t do anything stupid. I’m just ready to see what the Melo trade brings us.

    49. TheOakmanCometh

      It’s a sad state of affairs when the silver lining of our terrible contracts is that we’re capped out and can’t add MORE terrible contracts.

      Hooray?

    50. Bo Nateman

      We don’t know the intelligence Mills had to decide on the THJ offer sheet. On one hand, it was clear ATL was interested, on the other they had Bazemore at $17MM ( and difficult to deal). Hard to imagine ATL would sink over $30MM in those 2. thus,imho, Mills can only be knocked for a slight preemptive overpay.

      What Mills does now re Melo and, to a lesser extent, Lee will reveal his bona fides as a negotiator. If he assesses that HOU really wants Melo and convinces them that Knicks are not motivated sellers( difficult given all that has gone down, and also contingent on what the Melo contingent is communicating), then perhaps he can extract some value while enabling a cultural rebooting of the Knicks. The wildcard here is Melo. If he’s bent on leaving, then that will be communicated to HOU, thereby undermining Mill’s leverage( the same thing Melo did when he engineered his trade to Knicks.) As past is prologue, I am pessimistic . Mills choice may be a Hobson’s choice. Give away Melo for negative assets, or keep toxic Melo to undermine rebuild.

    51. swiftandabundant

      @ 47 – See I saw reports saying they would match to keep him. So lets say you’re scenario is true. 45 million. Does that mean if we offered him 46 million the Hawks would be like “FUCK THIS, that extra million is TOO much.” I doubt it. That obviously is an extreme example but the point I’m making is if the Knicks offered say 50 million or even 60 million, even if the Hawks said they would only match up to 45, would that extra 5 or 15 million over 4 years really be enough for them to not match? We don’t know and neither did Mills. So Mills gave him an offer he was almost certain Atlanta wouldn’t match. But the point still remains that we were not bidding against ourselves bc there was uncertainty about what Atlanta was willing to match. Again, you might hate the contract and think its too much but it is not true that we were bidding against ourselves.

    52. TheOakmanCometh

      we did not bid against ourselves to get Hardaway! This is another thing I’ve read people say on this site and its NOT TRUE. We were literally overpaying him so the Hawks would not match the offer.

      There are 4 reasons to overpay free agents, restricted or unrestricted.

      1. You think he’s going to turn into a star.
      2. You’re already a contender who is “going for it” the following season.
      3. You’re already capped out and will be for years.
      4. You’re a team like the Nets that doesn’t have draft picks and can’t draw free agents.

      None of those apply in this case. We didn’t need to overpay Hardaway because we don’t need Hardaway. If the Hawks matched a $52m offer with no trade kicker or opt-out, then fuck it, who cares? Then you sign KCP or Mack or CJ Miles or do nothing. Doing whatever it takes to “win” the Hardaway bidding is totally unnecessary.

    53. Cock Jowles, Not a Knicks Fan Because Fuck This Team

      Is there a single team in the league that would trade for Hardaway right now, even if he didn’t have the trade kicker?

      If the answer is “no” or even “probably not,” the deal is terrible. We saw the same thing with Noah.

    54. swiftandabundant

      @ 49 – Jowles…that is your opinion. Obviously Mills didn’t think it was a terrible offer or he wouldn’t have offered it. Besides the dollar amount what is bad about it? Is it because Tim is too old? He’s not. Is it because he hasn’t improved each of his seasons in the NBA? He has. Is it because he was drafted by us and then traded? I’ll give you that one but that’s on Phil, not Mills, and if we want a good young player on our team our current GM shouldn’t balk bc our past GM fucked up in trading him.

      I honestly believe if it wasn’t the Knicks and his name wasn’t Hardaway, people would not slam this deal bc to add a young, improving wing player that we’re gonna get for the prime of his career and who lines up with our other young players…that is not a bad move to make for a rebuilding franchise.

      Of course I know you want to just tank forever and get lottery picks but I like the approach of picks and free agent signings if the free agents are young and improving which Hardaway is.

    55. swiftandabundant

      And it also looks bad now mainly bc Melo, Lee and Noah are all still here. So you look at our cap space and think damn we got all this money tied up in these 4 guys! But if Melo and eventually Lee are gone sometime this season, it starts to look a lot different. You guys act like our cap space situation is unchangeable when another trade or two will open things back up for us. Plus I don’t mind paying for Hardaway bc he’s young. The point is to have him be part of the Zinger, Willie H, Frank core.

    56. 2FOR18

      If the Rockets, or Portland, take back Lee, then I’d be willing to take on Anderson and Harkless.
      Then I’d sign Rondo for 1 year. You’d now have a team that, for me anyway, is watchable – a passing pg and 4 young guys in the starting line-up, plus Frank and Dotson coming off the bench.

    57. Ben R

      What I heard was Atlanta was hoping for 4 years 48 million. That wasn’t their max that was what they were expecting. We don’t know what their max was. I would be surprised if they didn’t match at least into the 50-55 million range. $60 million should have been the offer as the right balance between pain for Atlanta and more resonable overpay for us.

      As upset as we all are about the overpay, can we stop painting Hardaway as a bad player, or bench player or mediocre player. With no improvement he is a good SG. Last year he scored 19 points per 36 on above average efficiency with slightly above average defense, average rebounding and passing (for a SG), and a good turnover rate. Right now even if he does not improve he is a good 4th or 5th starter on a playoff team.

      If we go into the season with Melo and Lee it was a bad move because of the roster imbalance it creates while limiting other options, if we move Lee and Melo and THJ has a clear path to be our starting SG for the next 4 years this move while still a clear overpay makes some sense and isn’t the end of the world. It is the rest of our cap and roster make up that makes this a bad deal not the deal itself. So lets see how the rest of the offseason shakes out. By then we’ll have a much clearer picture of whether Mills is trash or not.

    58. Totes McGoats

      The problem with Dolan is that he makes unsound decisions in general in regard to the Knicks. He doesn’t have the judgment of more successful hands-on owners, like Mark Cuban. He gets away with it because his arena sells out every night and his franchise is the most valuable one in the NBA despite the poor record and PR circus.

      He’s not Donald Sterling bad, and somehow the Rangers are relatively well-run and drama-free. I disagree with the handling of the POBO search, but I don’t see anything unethical about insisting on more control on either end with Griffin.

      Agreed. Except I would argue that if Dolan is getting away with mismanagement because he’s more concerned with bottom line income, then the only real difference between he & Sterling is Dolan hasn’t been outed as a racist asshole. Granted- the Clips never made NYK money as consistently as the Knicks do now. I think Dolan’s ineptitude has been at Donald Sterling’s level when it comes to running a basketball franchise. Mediocre seasons with a few lucky seasons, hires, and personnel decisions sprinkled on top of the wreckage. Sterling has probably been a little more lucky with the acquisitions of Blake Griffin, CP3, and Doc Rivers steadying the ship for multiple seasons.

    59. swiftandabundant

      @ 55 – so you’re saying we don’t need a young athletic wing player who can help carry the scoring load so Zinger doesn’t have to do it all by himself?

      You guys always talk about thinking several moves ahead. That is what this is about. If Melo is gone and Lee is not part of the long term plan we will need some scoring. WE need better perimeter play, more outside shooting, more scoring in transition.

      Can none of you see the potential of a Frank/Hardaway back court?

    60. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      TH2 seems like a good bet to improve his game, though. He’s improved his scoring a great bit and, at least offensively, his numbers aren’t too far off of what Klay Thompson gives the Warriors. I think he improves his scoring numbers a little more this season and becomes a staple for us offensively.

    61. JK47

      Wow, you guys are a lot less cynical than me. Maybe I’m just a nattering nabob of negativity, but I’m having a really fucking hard time imagining Steve Mills and the rest of the crony crew leading the Knicks anywhere but to Palookaville.

    62. TheOakmanCometh

      Jowles…that is your opinion. Obviously Mills didn’t think it was a terrible offer or he wouldn’t have offered it.

      Nearly every observer and analyst says this was a bad deal. In the battle of Steve Mills vs Everyone, I’ll side with everyone.

      Besides the dollar amount what is bad about it?

      The trade kicker and the player option.

      Plus I don’t mind paying for Hardaway bc he’s young.

      So if a player is young, you can pay him any amount and it’s a defensible deal? If we gave Hardaway $30m a year and a NTC, would that be acceptable? He’d be just as young.

      Dion Waiters is young. Marshall Plumlee is young. LiAngelo Ball is young. None of them deserve $71m either. Age is only one part of a player’s value. It’s a benefit but in and of itself it means nothing.

    63. thenoblefacehumper

      If we’re able to move Melo and hopefully Lee, and we’re able to sign Rondo for a year, I could see the team actually being kind of fun to watch. That’s obviously not the same as being actually good, but as Knicks fans it’s all about the small victories, I guess. I’ll take it after my eyes bled 82 times last year anyway.

      The THJ contract sucks in every imaginable way, but he goes off every once in a while and can run a little bit. Basically what I’m saying is I’ve pretty much given up on this team ever being competitive in a serious way.

    64. Owen

      Give Mills a chance? Really?

      I am going to have to limit postings at this point because it’s bad for my blood pressure.

    65. swiftandabundant

      @ 65 – except Hardaway is better than all the players you’ve mentioned.

      Look at his numbers. By all stats he is better than Lee across the board and he’s 25. He can be part of the core that we’re building around.

      As it stands right now we have a young core of Frank, Hardaway, Zinger and Willie H. Plus Dotson and Ron as bench pieces. When was the last time the Knicks had that many young players on the team (and fringe 3rd stringers don’t count). I mean, maybe I’m just a homer but I feel like that’s something to be excited about. If Melo is traded and we get back say Harkless from Portland, that’s another young player to add to the mix. Plus we got our draft picks going forward. I don’t know. I just don’t see it as all bad is what I’m trying to say.

    66. Bruno Almeida

      @64

      nah JK, it’s the same thing that happens every off-season, “optimists” try to twist every move into something positive, the season obviously proves them wrong and they disappear, then they come back next off-season.

      this team will go nowhere and THJr will suck, but hey, at least this time we have some young dudes with upside.

    67. JK47

      Give Mills a chance? Really?

      I am going to have to limit postings at this point because it’s bad for my blood pressure.

      I feel the exact same way. Saying “I told you so” is starting to lose its charm.

    68. swiftandabundant

      @ 67 – yeah, give him a chance. If you can’t read why I said we can give him a chance and not at least see where I’m coming form, that’s on you. Mills certainly knows the job at this point and has said he wants young players who are unselfish and are athletic. He doesn’t seem married to some system but just wants talent and youth. And he’s seen the mistakes we’ve made in the past. As some have pointed out, he wanted the Lowry deal but was shot down bc Dolan had been burned by the Raptors before with Bargs. And my bigger point is if we just let Mills be the boss for awhile, if he fails then its on him, not on some name we bring in. To me that seems better, more accountability.

    69. Ntilakilla

      As it stands right now we have a young core of Frank, Hardaway, Zinger and Willie H. Plus Dotson and Ron as bench pieces. When was the last time the Knicks had that many young players on the team (and fringe 3rd stringers don’t count). I mean, maybe I’m just a homer but I feel like that’s something to be excited about

      I agree with this take, which is why I don’t hate that Mills is in charge. I have a feeling he will continue the rebuild around the young core Phil and Gaines assembled.

    70. JK47

      The dude came right out of the gate with a laughably bad contract to a middling player that was instantly and justifiably mocked by the entire sports world.

      Maybe he’ll get better after that doe!

    71. Bruno Almeida

      Steve Mills has been on the Knicks for a long time and every season he has been on was a losing season.

      For all accounts he’s a crony, a Dolan ass licker and no, I wont forget his role at the whole Isiah fiasco. He had plenty of chances and has been terrible at his job and by all indications not much better as a human being.

      so no, no chances for him.

    72. Ben R

      In the Houston trade we need to squeeze a little more value out of them. Forget future 1sts which would be late picks in 2020 or further let’s make them take bad contracts. If they don’t want to give up Ariza and Capela and want to move Anderson then force Noah on them.

      Melo+Noah for Anderson+Gordon+two of their minimum contracts (Taylor and Onuaku look like the best of the bunch and would possibly be worth keeping around)
      or
      Melo+Lee+Thomas for Anderson+Gordon+three of their minimum contracts+2020 1st round pick.

      Then pull in Portland and all of a sudden taking back a bad Portland contract to flip Anderson is more palatable, end up with Harkless+Leonard or Crabbe or even Turner + an asset and call it a day.

      We have the leverage in a Houston deal, if they blink we could just keep Melo and bench him till his trade list lengthens or wait till he opts out after this season.

    73. thenoblefacehumper

      I think it’s pretty reasonable to assume Mills was a driving force behind the Bargnani trade, since Grunwald was fired shortly after it and replaced with Mills.

      Is there anything else you need to know about him?

    74. swiftandabundant

      @ 73 – oh yeah, ESPN said it was a bad deal and wow they are so great with their insightful sports journalism. Man we should really just take their opinion about everything.

      @ 76 – so we didn’t make the playoffs in 2010, 2011 and 2012 with a 54 win season in there? I mean I know this wasn’t some great dynasty in Knicks basketball but your comment is false. We had 3 winning seasons in a row when Mills worked here.

      All I’m saying is that his statements since taking over have been good. Lets get young, athletic team oriented players. And the organization has also made it known that they still ultimately want to trade Melo but aren’t going to just take garbage from him. Also, the Zinger controversy seems to have abated. And again, my point about Mills is simply that I think it would be better to let him be in charge and take the credit or blame for what happens as opposed to getting a big name who doesn’t have real autonomy but will take the fall if things go poorly. Letting Mills and Houston run the show means that they will be responsible for what happens and if it turns into a shit show, they will be gone.

      Think about it. We can’t rightfully blame or credit Mills for anything right now bc he’s been here for years but never “in charge.” So was Bargs his fault? Does he get credit for wanting Lowry? Does he get blamed for the bad things that happened under Phil or does he get credit for the good things? We can’t really say either way on any of these things. So if he has so much influence and has to be here, why not let him prove it and if he fucks up, then he’s gone for good.

    75. 2FOR18

      Unreal. The only thing more depressing than being a Knicks fan is reading these posts by people who, over and over again, defend every bad move the Knicks make.
      Sure, if the Knicks trade melo, Lee and Noah for young players and picks, the Hardaway deal won’t seem as bad.
      But what in the name of holy hell makes anybody think that’s going to happen? In what fantasy world is this front office going to make this happen? Nobody wants Lee. Nobody wants Noah. And nobody wants melo enough to give up anything good for him. Sure, Houston will take melo if we take an even worse contract back, and Portland will happily facilitate that if we take another bad contract back. But we’re not getting “multiple unprotected #1s” (lmao).
      The fact is they overpaid for a guy who is now their backup 2 guard. That’s the reality and that’s what needs to he discussed. Not “if they do pie in the sky a, b,and c” Hardaway was a good move at 71 mil.

    76. swiftandabundant

      @ 76 – see though that’s just your opinion. We have no idea. Does he also get credit for wanting Lowry? Or does he get blamed for not making that move? which is it?

    77. swiftandabundant

      And even if Mills does get blamed for these past moves, since he wasn’t fully in charge then you can’t say that those moves were all his fault. And you know, maybe he’s learned from them. His statements seem to point towards wanting to get younger, more athletic and team oriented players. Maybe he’s seen up close what didn’t work with Grunwald, Phil, Donnie…and now knows what we need to do.

      I would just rather him do the job and then get fully blamed for it if we fail than have Griffin or Callipari or some other big name come in and fool fans into thinking we got an adult in charge now.

    78. Ben R

      Do you think we could swing a Lee trade with OKC:

      Lee for Abrines+Mcdermott+Christon

      Mcdermott is expiring and Christon is unguaranteed. Lee is an upgrade over Abrines for them and Abrines is a young player for us.

    79. Hubert

      I’m reading that there is a dearth of teams that expect to have cap room next summer, so we’re likely to see some good deals.

      God forbid this team had the patience to go one summer without trying to “win now”. Once we trade Melo for more long term contracts, we’ll be done for the foreseeable future.

    80. swiftandabundant

      @ 78 – what makes us think its going to happen is the statements made by our front office since Phil left and the very reliable rumors out there that a Melo deal is being worked on.

      Fact – Mills has stated their ultimate goal is moving Melo.
      Fact – Mills has said the goal is to get younger, more athletic and more team orientated players.
      Fact – Hardaway fits the description of the above. Maybe you can argue he isn’t team oriented but he’s improved every year and gladly accepted going down to the D-League until his defense improved. Go to the Atlanta boards…they debated about matching him but they did not debate his talent, work ethic or team oriented play.

      Now yes Mills did come out and say that they had no intention of moving Lee for now. But even though Lee is older, he is a team oriented player who is a good veteran to have on the team. Also, with the way the NBA is moving, its not like Hardaway and Lee and Dotson can’t also play the 3.

      Noah is unmovable so he’s not even worth discussing. Maybe they keep him on the team another year before stretching him or they get him to retire or something.

    81. swiftandabundant

      @ 78 – your comments though are all about making one move at a time and not thinking several moves ahead, which is what a GM and front office should do.

      Also a statement like “nobody wants Lee” is false and is just your own negative opinion. WE don’t know if anybody wants him or not because there have been no rumors of us trying to move him.

    82. stratomatic

      I can’t see how anyone can defend Mills.

      Don’t listen to damn thing he says. He’s a full of crap incompetent that will say all the right things to buy more time on the gravy train but he’ll execute the plan incompetently if he has the power.

      Mills has been part of upper management for as long as the team as been a cesspool (except for a short 3 year break where he was involved Magic Johnson). Mills, Allan Houston, and Isiah Thomas are the one constant. They are the ones that have Dolan’s ear. They are the ones that feed stories to the press that create turmoil. They are the one that have presided over the incompetence, scandals and everything else we hate.

      The rest of it has been a revolving door of fall guys for anything that went wrong while they kept their power and kept collecting checks.

      The issue is not whether Griffin would have made a great GM. It’s that he was smart enough to see that he would not actually have the power to control the destiny of the team and gut the swamp. However, he’d get all the blame when the next plan failed (while and the 3 stooges would keep collecting their checks).

      Anyone that’s even mildly competent should see that by now.

      There’s no way anyone with half a brain would work for NY until those idiots are all out. Next they’ll probably try to bring in Joe Dumars.

    83. chrisk06811

      I hope Hardaway continues to improve, and at his age he certainly could. But, it seems like the thing that was the key to his improvement was BEING ON THE ATLANTA HAWKS!!! which is no longer the case

    84. swiftandabundant

      @ 85 – if all that is true, then why do you want another fall guy to come here? If we know that Mills, Houston and yes, Isiah, are the ones with the true power, why not make them take responsibility for it and when shit hits the fan, they take the blame?

    85. 2FOR18

      OK, which one of you guys just called the FAN and talked up melo cause he scored 24/game last year? Is that you, er? Has ruru moved to NY?

    86. Cock Jowles, Not a Knicks Fan Because Fuck This Team

      Obviously Mills didn’t think it was a terrible offer or he wouldn’t have offered it.

      If we play chess and you promptly trade both your knights for a pair of pawns in the first few moves, you are playing terribly. You might not know that you are playing terribly, and you might think you are not playing terribly, or you might just not have any idea what you are doing, but in any case: you are playing terribly.

      Besides the dollar amount what is bad about it?

      Beside that it’s excruciatingly painful, likely traumatic and potentially lethal, what is bad about getting stung by a box jellyfish?

      Is it because Tim is too old? He’s not.

      You are right that a 26-year-old is not too old for a 4-year contract.

      Is it because he hasn’t improved each of his seasons in the NBA? He has.

      You are right that he has improved since he entered the league.

      Is it because he was drafted by us and then traded? I’ll give you that one but that’s on Phil, not Mills, and if we want a good young player on our team our current GM shouldn’t balk bc our past GM fucked up in trading him.

      Past transactions do not factor into my evaluation, even though it’s likely that the Knicks could have re-signed him for substantially less money had they kept him instead of trading him for literally nothing but the cap room used to sign him. So yeah, actually: that makes it worse, because Knicks.

    87. Cock Jowles, Not a Knicks Fan Because Fuck This Team

      I honestly believe if it wasn’t the Knicks and his name wasn’t Hardaway, people would not slam this deal bc to add a young, improving wing player that we’re gonna get for the prime of his career and who lines up with our other young players…that is not a bad move to make for a rebuilding franchise.

      The prime of a mediocre player’s career at ~20% of the cap is irrelevant when you have a 30-win core.

      Of course I know you want to just tank forever and get lottery picks but I like the approach of picks and free agent signings if the free agents are young and improving which Hardaway is.

      TIL that if you think tanking is good, you think a team should tank forever.

    88. Frank

      This whole executive search weirds me out.

      Tim Leiweke is supposed to be doing the search, right? So why is the guy that the search is FOR being interviewed and wined/dined by the guy he’s replacing? Just weird. This, as usual, comes down to Dolan. If a replacement for Mills is being looked for, then say so. If Mills is going to be POBO and we’re looking for a GM, then say so. But this middle ground is weird.

      Re: what Hardaway was going to get on the open market – a lot of this is post-hoc spin, sort of like when right after the Paul George trade, all those articles came out about all the great trade offers Danny Ainge had made and “I can’t believe Pritchard still traded him to OKC” — it’s to save face. I have no doubt that 4/71 was an overpay and that the trade bonus etc. were unnecessary, but all these stories about 4/48 are very likely messaging to the Hawks fans that “Look HOW MUCH the Knicks are overpaying for this guy — there’s just no way we can match that”. I have zero evidence of this, of course, but my guess is that if the offer was 4/56 or 4/60 that Atlanta would have matched. Teams don’t just give away young/improving assets for nothing over $2-3MM/year — especially assets that they’ve spent 2 full seasons developing. And Timmy wasn’t just an “asset” – he played 2100 minutes and started 30 games for them.

      (That said, it was still an overpay by at least $7MM total — i think 4/64 minus all the poison pills would still definitely have gotten it done. and this is aside from all the win-curve issues we’ve gone on and on about)

      Super lame that Mills is not coming to Timmy’s press conference by the way.

    89. 2FOR18

      I think a competent front office could trade Lee to OKC. I don’t think the Knicks can.

    90. Hubert

      We can be hopeful that he’ll retain Phil’s good side (avoid trading #1 picks, draft well, esp. with an eye to Europe), while avoiding Phil’s bad side (pretty much everything else).

      Are we sure holding onto our number one picks is attributable to Phil?

      It’s possible Dolan, after getting fleeced by Masai in the Bargnani deal, actually learned something. He refused to trade a 1 for Lowry, and that was pre-Phil.

      I’m cautiously optimistic this organization has figured out that you shouldn’t trade first round picks.

    91. Frank

      Some people have also latched onto the CARMELO projection from fivethirtyeight.com re: Timmy’s 4 year worth being 5 years/$40MM. That’s a weird projection just looking at the graphs. They immediately assume he’ll become a worse player than he was last year based on the weighted average of the past 3 seasons. I am sure that they have done statistical analysis on it, but you DO expect players to improve each year up to a certain age, I would think? especially when the trend goes -1.8-> 0.1 –> 2.9? why would the model immediately assume that he’ll get worse the next year (down to 1.6)?

    92. swiftandabundant

      Hey, hate the hardaway deal and hate Mills. I’m not claiming to be right about Hardaway working out for us and I certainly have my doubts about Mills running the show.

      But Hardaway is a good young player that lines up with our young players. So I see the logic in getting him. And Mills has said stuff that I like since taking over for Phil. I’m willing to give him a shot especially if it means he will be out if things go poorly. Again, I would just rather have him and Houston fail and be done than have someone else take the blame and they stick around.

    93. Frank

      It’s possible Dolan, after getting fleeced by Masai in the Bargnani deal, actually learned something. He refused to trade a 1 for Lowry, and that was pre-Phil.

      I’m cautiously optimistic this organization has figured out that you shouldn’t trade first round picks.

      Ummm – that would have been a very good deal for us. 3 years of prime Lowry would have been 3 years in the playoffs, probably no Phil Jackson (also no KP, but who knows what happens).

      You wouldn’t have traded Shump, the corpse of MWP, and a 2018 pick for prime Kyle Lowry? Remember – that trade was almost done the season after the 54 win team. That 13-14 team might have made some noise with Lowry, Hardaway, JR, Melo, Tyson, Prigs etc. Even with Fat Felton we nearly made it into the playoffs with an 18-6 record to close the season.

    94. JK47

      Again, I would just rather have him and Houston fail and be done than have someone else take the blame and they stick around.

      So great, let’s tack another 3-5 years of miserable failure onto this miserable era, because at least then we’ll presumably be rid of Mills and Houston when this next failed cycle ends. That seems totally reasonable. So the next window when we should start caring again begins in what, like 2022 or something? Fabulous.

    95. stratomatic

      @ 85 – if all that is true, then why do you want another fall guy to come here? If we know that Mills, Houston and yes, Isiah, are the ones with the true power, why not make them take responsibility for it and when shit hits the fan, they take the blame?

      What I want is for the management team to be fumigated.

      This Griffin episode further proved what’s actually going in at MSG. The real power is with Mills, Isiah, Houston, and to some extent Melo and his team.

      It was Melo that poisoned the locker room over the triangle and other things he disagreed with.

      It was Melo that poisoned KP.

      It was the 3 stooges and Melo’s team creating the momentum to get rid of Phil by blaming all the locker room turmoil on him when he actually did a pretty good job of positioning the team for the future despite not having 2 1st round draft picks.

      Does anyone think is a coincidence that we suddenly signed a “scorer” (that Phil got rid of) now that the 3 stooges are back in charge. THJ is the typical Isiah/Houston/Mils player. He’s athletic, scores a lot of points, does things that impress the nitwits, doesn’t rate very highly on advanced stats, and we overpaid?

      Wait until the rumors of Joe Dumars start circulating. Then you’ll believe me.

    96. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      FWIW I think 538’s CARMELO projections aren’t particularly good

    97. stratomatic

      why would the model immediately assume that he’ll get worse the next year (down to 1.6)?

      Their data suggests that players peak at around 24-25, but quite honestly, I’m not sure they are doing it right.

      The result is dependent on the model you are using and how it weighs various factors, some of which peak and decline earlier than others.

      Also, “average” includes players that were injured, players that never really had much talent etc… If you look at healthy talented players, imo they tend to peak in their late 20s and last longer now than they did years ago.

    98. Hubert

      Ummm – that would have been a very good deal for us. 3 years of prime Lowry would have been 3 years in the playoffs, probably no Phil Jackson (also no KP, but who knows what happens).

      You wouldn’t have traded Shump, the corpse of MWP, and a 2018 pick for prime Kyle Lowry?

      Whether or not the trade was good is moot.

      The point is we balked because we didn’t want to trade a future pick. Maybe that is now part of our organizational philosophy.

    99. Cock Jowles, Not a Knicks Fan Because Fuck This Team

      Even with Fat Felton we nearly made it into the playoffs with an 18-6 record to close the season.

      Actually, the Knicks closed the season 22-11.

    100. Bruno Almeida

      Please, just stop with the twisted narrative that THJr is a good young player, he’s not.

      he has had two years in his career where he has been mediocre, and that’s all. He’s never been good. Hell, ws48, a metric widely known to overrate volume scoring, has him at .107 for his best season, which is literally the average for the NBA. He does nothing but score at a decent efficiency.

      if you like the move, you like him because you think he can, at 26, improve massively over his current level and become worthy of the contract. It is possible, yet again highly unlikely.

    101. Hubert

      Please, just stop with the twisted narrative that THJr is a good young player, he’s not.

      I kinda like him as a player, tbh. I watched a couple of Hawks games last year and was shocked at how much he improved. If we had acquired him at a salary commensurate to his ability, I wouldn’t be that mad.

    102. Will the Thrill

      Ws48 does not overrate volume scoring, it is widely known toundervalue volume scoring.

    103. thenoblefacehumper

      538’s basketball coverage is pretty shitty (outside of Herring, of course), and it’s true that some reactions to the Hardaway deal have been hyperbolic. A reasonable evaluation of him is that he’s a slightly above average player. That’s not bad! Those guys aren’t extremely easy to come by. But when you’re not even remotely close to contention, why in the ever loving fuck are you trying to stockpile slightly above average players? Those guys don’t make you much better, they’re just nice to have around to soak up the minutes your well-above average players can’t. If the Warriors paid Shaun Livingston $17 million a year before they were good, it would’ve been a lot harder for them to, you know, get good. That’s pretty much what we just did.

      It’s not impossible that THJ improves enough to make this seem reasonable, but there’s so much unnecessary risk involved that there’s no chance this was even one of the best ten or so ways to use this cap space.

    104. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      Melo isn’t the demon spawn that poisoned all the water at MSG. Let’s let that narrative go.

      Also, if Steve Mills is going to be our POBO, he’s got a pretty decent hand to start with. Ntilikina, Randle, Baker, Dotson, Hardaway Jr, Porzingis, Hernangomez, and all of your 1st round picks going forward is pretty sweet. It is going to be pretty hard to fuck this situation up considering how Steve Mills wants to build the Knicks (“building a team around youth, athleticism, accountability, and unselfishness”). He has his franchise player, two good supporting pieces in Willy and Timmy, a 6’5″ 19 year old French point guard with a 7 foot wingspan, and a bunch of gambles that could develop into valuable assets.

      It’s not that I have much faith in Steve Mills. It’s that if we can’t sign disastrous contracts because we’re capped out, Dolan won’t let us trade picks, and we are known to be in a rebuilding process, how bad will the team get?

    105. Bruno Almeida

      @106

      I don’t hate him as a player, and I think he can improve a bit too, if it was a 4 year 40 million deal I wouldnt be hating on it so hard… but he’s not a good young player, he’s average.

    106. Ben R

      There are a lot of reason’s to hate the Hardawy signing but to twist the narritive to say Hardaway is a bad player isn’t one of them.

      Only 16 players in the nba age 24 or younger managed a ws/48 higher than .100.

      Also 538 put Hardaway’s wins over replacement at 2.9 last year and his value at 15 million last year.

      He might get worse, he might get hurt, he destroys our cap room but to say he is a bad player is false. He is a good young starter. He is overpaid and is redundant on our roster so please hate on those things but if last year is any indication he is still a good young player.

    107. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      @108 the Warriors would have been great even if they overpaid for Shaun Livingston because they killed the draft by landing Curry, Green, and Thompson in consecutive years. They wouldn’t have had room for Durant, but they would have won a championship regardless. As long as you don’t trade away your draft picks, you can win in this league.

      My lens is that we already have Willy Hernangomez, who was excellent the minute he touched an NBA court, Kristaps Porzingis, who I’m betting will take the superstar leap, and Frank Ntilikina whose upside is unbelievable. Adding Tim Hardaway to be your 4th piece wasn’t a terrible strategy.

    108. swiftandabundant

      @ 109 – thank you for this. People seem to forget that we have a lot of good pieces all ready. That’s why I like the Hardaway deal. People seem to think we’re years away and need 3 more lottery picks to even consider ourselves a team worth building around. But if you consider KP and Willie H to be pretty good bets to be all stars or near that level and you have faith in Frank, then why not add Hardaway now. Players get better as teams get better and having those 4 in place now (plus Dotson and/or Frank) will allow us to grow together as a team. And we have picks to add to that now going forward. Plus whatever we might get from a Melo deal (Harkless)…eventually we can trade Lee, maybe Quinn too. In 2 years we could then be out from Melo and Lee and maybe then we stretch Noah and add another piece to our core.

    109. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      Tim Hardaway doesn’t destroy our cap room. Joakim Noah, Lance Thomas, and whichever bad contract we take back for Carmelo Anthony will do that all by themselves. Tim Hardaway Jr is a good bet to play 2,000+ minutes a season over the life of his contract and he should improve his game as he plays through his prime.

    110. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      If the Knicks end up starting a 19 year old Ntilikina, a 25 year old Hardaway Jr, a 24 year old Moe Harkless, a 22 year old KP, and a 23 year old Hernangomez how mad can we really be at what the front office is doing? The Hardaway Jr contract be damned, I like where the Knicks are headed.

    111. thenoblefacehumper

      Marc Berman @NYPost_Berman
      Acting president Steve Mills has already thrown the triangle in the trash and given Jeff Hornacek full autonomy. That’s something.
      11:36 PM – 9 Jul 2017

      He’s not wrong, but guess that answers BC’s question about Berman’s source!

    112. Jack Bauer

      @109 “how bad will the team get?”
      We’re about to find out. By any objective measure they are not off to a good start personnel wise or front office wise.

    113. Cock Jowles, Not a Knicks Fan Because Fuck This Team

      Ws48 does not overrate volume scoring, it is widely known toundervalue volume scoring.

      WS48 definitely leans toward high USG% players. Are you sure you don’t mean WP48?

    114. Hubert

      If the Knicks end up starting a 19 year old Ntilikina, a 25 year old Hardaway Jr, a 24 year old Moe Harkless, a 22 year old KP, and a 23 year old Hernangomez how mad can we really be at what the front office is doing? The Hardaway Jr contract be damned, I like where the Knicks are headed.

      That’s a 30-35 win team with a very limited chance for external improvement. You need KP and Frank to turn into Kobe and Shaq to win a title if that’s the core you’re locked into.

      We’d be in much better shape with just KP, Willy, Frank, and some filler on short term contracts.

    115. Cock Jowles, Not a Knicks Fan Because Fuck This Team

      I love that 538’s CARMELO player projections visually show percentiles, even if their CARMELO projections seem pretty black-boxy.

      Really can’t believe there’s no site out there (to my knowledge) that doesn’t show percentiles and standard deviations. Even a TS% vs. USG% plot would be helpful to understand how much more valuable a leap from .600 to .650 TS% is than, say, .550 to .600.

    116. Ntilakilla

      Marc Berman @NYPost_Berman
      Acting president Steve Mills has already thrown the triangle in the trash and given Jeff Hornacek full autonomy. That’s something.
      11:36 PM – 9 Jul 2017

      I bet we still run triangle sets, just like many of the best NBA offenses do.

    117. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      External improvement is vastly overrated. You need to draft in this league to win unless the Greek Freak wants to sign a contract with you.

    118. d-mar

      You know, with all the doom and gloom on this site lately (most of it justified) I just had a really happy thought:

      We won’t have to watch Derrick Fucking Rose in a Knicks uniform this season!

    119. thenoblefacehumper

      You know, with all the doom and gloom on this site lately (most of it justified) I just had a really happy thought:

      We won’t have to watch Derrick Fucking Rose in a Knicks uniform this season!

      You’re more optimistic than me about the rest of this offseason.

    120. Bruno Almeida

      @111

      Ben, notice I’ve never said bad, I said average. His production has been average, that’s what the numbers show. I’ve acknowledged many times that he can still get better, but how many 26 year old dudes who just got paid a lot really do?

      and ws48 certainly overrates high usage scorers, its well known.

    121. Boriqua3

      @ 113, 115 and 124 *** Renewed optimism… I dig that!
      A watchable, progressive team is what I’m left rooting for. If C.A. stays, the Knicks only have the Mid-level to offer, correct?

    122. Cock Jowles, Not a Knicks Fan Because Fuck This Team

      Can I just say how much happier I am to have THJ at $17M a year than Derrick Rose at any salary?

    123. english_knick

      Frank, TH, Harkless, KP, Willy plus Baker, Leonard etc is a totally rootable team (Dotson maybe rather less so).

      30 wins has resulted in the 9th/9/7/6/6th best lotto odds in the last 5 years. So by next year that core has another lotto pick in it. And most decent players can be expected to improve through their early-mid 20s at least – so that core has a lot of internal improvement. Could conceivably be a .500 team in 2 years without any other major additions.

    124. stratomatic

      Can I just say how much happier I am to have THJ at $17M a year than Derrick Rose at any salary?

      How do you feel about Rondo for 2 years?

    125. Bruno Almeida

      if Melo gets traded and Rose is not re–signed I’m happy enough to be honest, even if Rondo comes. Id much rather not have Rondo but well, can’t ask for much from the Knicks.

    126. Hubert

      External improvement is vastly overrated. You need to draft in this league to win unless the Greek Freak wants to sign a contract with you.

      External improvement = acquiring players via trade, draft, or free agency.

      As opposed to internal improvement = the players you have getting better.

      The problem with that team is that it would probably win just enough to limit the chances of us making serious improvements via the draft, and despite the value of KP, Frank, Willy, it’s capped out because of the terrible contracts of Noah, Hardaway, and Harkless.

      I will not be very excited if we go all in on that core.

    127. Hubert

      30 wins has resulted in the 9th/9/7/6/6th best lotto odds in the last 5 years

      That’s not a good place to be. Plus we could easily achieve 35 wins, which gets us even worse.

      Could conceivably be a .500 team in 2 years without any other major additions.

      A capped out .500 team isn’t something to aspire to in the NBA.

    128. Mike Kurylo Post author

      It’s kind of funny how when we talk about smart owners and dumb owners, Mark Cuban automatically falls into the smart category. Meanwhile, since the Mavs won it all in 2011, what has he really done that would rank him as a good owner? They haven’t gotten out of the 1st round since, and also haven’t been able to attract big name free agents. And their best players right now are Harrison Barnes and Wes Matthews.

      Cuban bought the Mavs in 2000. Since 2001, guess where the Mavs rank in wins? I’ll give you a hint, it’s not first, nor 3rd – 30th.

      http://bkref.com/tiny/32eWN

    129. 2FOR18

      And that’s in the West. Imagine the Dirk reign happening in the East. Probably a couple more finals appearances.

    130. Mike Kurylo Post author

      Cuban bought the Mavs in 2000. Since 2001, guess where the Mavs rank in wins? I’ll give you a hint, it’s not first, nor 3rd – 30th.

      http://bkref.com/tiny/32eWN

      Ironically he’s sandwiched between two teams in his own state, SAS & HOU. Although I had to double check Houston – they’ve had consistently good teams, yet they fail to have any great teams. Makes sense why they’re going all in now.

    131. Cock Jowles, Not a Knicks Fan Because Fuck This Team

      If you’re HOU or SAS, you pray that Curry or Durant goes down with a season-ending injury and you or another team picks them off in the playoffs. But even then, unlikely. You can’t close the window on yourself while you have two current MVP-candidate HOFers just because you’re a 57-win core instead of a 70-win core.

      I mean this year’s Warriors team could win 70 again, especially if McCaw and Bell are as good as I expect them to be. So maybe it’s all for naught. Whatever. Knicks suck.

    132. d-mar

      Cuban bought the Mavs in 2000. Since 2001, guess where the Mavs rank in wins? I’ll give you a hint, it’s not first, nor 3rd – 30th.

      And 12th since 2011 when they won their title.

      Look, my point wasn’t that he’s been a bad owner per se, but I do think he tends to get overrated because he’s a great self-promoter and the whole Shark Tank thing.

    133. stratomatic

      Melo isn’t the demon spawn that poisoned all the water at MSG. Let’s let that narrative go.

      You are right. He’s not “the” demon spawn. He’s one of several demon spawns. If you don’t think Melo, KP via his relationship with Melo, and Mills (who wanted his job) were a driving force behind all the bad press Jackson was getting then imo you are being naive. THEY all wanted him out, not necessarily because he was doing a terrible job, but for personal reasons. They helped create the hysteria that lead to the firing. Now we are hearing about how the GM position is actually fairly lucrative because the Knicks have a good young core, all their picks & cap space.

      Melo wanted a quick rebuild. That’s why we picked up Noah, Rose, and Lee. That was an appeasement move by Phil & change from the plan of tearing it down & rebuilding with younger more sensible pieces. He knew he had to keep Melo somewhat happy or he’d be out. So he went down the path of more of hybrid approach.

      Multiple sources have reported it was Melo that was very resistant to playing within the triangle and causing the trouble in the locker room. It was also reported he blasted KP for publicly suggesting it could work if everyone was committed to it. That was basically the same exact scenario that occurred under D’Antoni when Lin and Amare wanted to play within his system and Melo refused, which drove MDA out of town.

      We have to get rid of all the problem personalities on the team & in management.

      Phil was on that path. He got rid of JR Smith, Felton, Shumpert, and to a lesser degree Chandler. You can argue he paid a price to do it, but he was on the right path. He missed one piece. He should have let Melo walk or traded him if he could get anything of value. Then he threw a lot of it out the window with Rose. But he was never in a position to dump Mills, Houston or Isiah. Those are Dolan’s boys and they are untouchable…

    134. Hubert

      Cuban’s post-title decisions have definitely been less astute. But I would die to say the Knicks haven’t made many good moves since they won a championship.

    135. Mike Kurylo Post author

      OK, which one of you guys just called the FAN and talked up melo cause he scored 24/game last year? Is that you, er? Has ruru moved to NY?

      It was me. Someone has to pump his trade value.

    136. Mike Kurylo Post author

      If we play chess and you promptly trade both your knights for a pair of pawns in the first few moves, you are playing terribly. You might not know that you are playing terribly, and you might think you are not playing terribly, or you might just not have any idea what you are doing, but in any case: you are playing terribly.

      Two pawns for a knight isn’t a big deal, it’s a one point deficit especially early in the game. As someone who plays gambits consistently, this is a poor analogy.

      Now if that were a rook for two pawns in the opening, well that’s just awful. That’s like something you see when you watch children play. That’s more apt.

    137. english_knick

      @134. Yep – I totally agree. I was actually going to go on to say that provided we don’t take longer salary back in a Melo trade we’d then have meaningful cap space precisely while we could still benefit from KPs rookie scale cap hold. Then I remembered that in my imaginary scenario we were paying harkless and Leonard $20m in 2019. So I gracefully retreat from my point.

      I was looking for a bright side (and I’m normally not on the optimistic side of this blog). Reality is, there isn’t one.

    138. Cock Jowles, Not a Knicks Fan Because Fuck This Team

      Two pawns for a knight isn’t a big deal, it’s a one point deficit especially early in the game. As someone who plays gambits consistently, this is a poor analogy.

      Read my analogy again, m’liege.

    139. stratomatic

      There are plenty of teams that have demonstrated you can be a middle level or even high level team, be capped put, and still quickly move into serious contention with trades and other moves as long as you have smart management. The key to that is having all decent contracts. You can accumulate players like THJ, Harkless, and even a guy like Noah, as long as they are on good contracts because you can always trade attractive contracts, combine them to move up in quality, or allow the players to develop if they are young.

      Our mistake not been trying to get better. It has been in getting marginally better with bad contracts.

      That’s what kills a team.

      Once you are in the middle, the draft pick option becomes less valuable. But as long as you have good contracts you are still fine. But if you are in the middle and you have bad contracts you are dead.

      On the flip side, if you try to tank and do it all with draft picks, you are very likely to fail unless you are lucky. A lot of lottery picks turn into busts or mediocre players. Even if you do succeed, it may take 5-10 years to first accumulate the young talent, develop it, and then get the final pieces.

      There is no reason to limit yourself like that. You should use every avenue available to get good young players at sensible prices. Nothing wrong with THJ other than the price.

    140. swiftandabundant

      @ 120 – I mean, you could argue that any team that doesn’t have one of the major superstars is a 30 to 35 win team. The Nets could win 30 to 35 games if they stayed healthy. The 76ers could do that. The Twolves could do that. The Kings could do that. The Pistons could do that. Usually a bad but not awful NBA team is a 30 to 35 win team. Usually a team that is a lot worse than that has some injury issues or is just intentionally tanking (which is probably what you want. Gross).

    141. swiftandabundant

      Wait you honestly think if we start Frank at PG we’re gonna win 35 games bc of Hardaway, Harkless, Willie and KP? I mean, to me that would be kind of awesome bc 35 wins with him as the starting PG means he’s most likely going to be a great starting PG. The other guys are young and fun to root for and on the upswing but dang 35 wins seems generous for a team with that starting 5.

      30 is probably the ceiling for that team and 30 wins will get you somewhere between 4 and 7 in the draft.

    142. 2FOR18

      “He knew he had to keep Melo somewhat happy or he’d be out. So he went down the path of more of hybrid approach.”

      This theory does fit in with the timing of Dolan throwing another 25 mil/2 years at Phil, and then firing him when he wanted to dump.

      Bu where this theory falls apart is that Phil, with 2 more years of guaranteed $ coming, decided to to offer the MMM NTC. At that time he could have signed and traded melo. So ultimately, the whole melo mess is Phil’s fault to begin with.

    143. Hubert

      We just won 31 games with Derrick Rose, Brandon Jennings, and Ron Baker at PG. We could conceivably improve our win total without good play from Frank.

    144. stratomatic

      This theory does fit in with the timing of Dolan throwing another 25 mil/2 years at Phil, and then firing him when he wanted to dump.

      Phil and Dolan were on good enough terms to get the extra 25 million, but not everyone even knew that. That was reported later.

      The media was always extremely biased against Phil (or dumb, I’ll give you the choice) but the big push to get Phil out came after he started talking about trading Melo (which was reported by a variety of sources in as negative and biased a fashion as you can get without calling them all liars) and then when he started talking about moving KP (which was again reported in a very biased fashion). That’s when he was booted.

      He was DRIVEN OUT in what was essentially a political coup using the press to sway public opinion and make it all happen. By the end of it, everyone thought Phil was Satan. That made it easy to get rid of him. He actually did a pretty good job with a sprinkling of mistakes (that they all make) and the one very bad move of not dumping Melo.

      We were in great shape long term, but the first unraveling came with the overpay for THJ.

    145. Mike Kurylo Post author

      > Read my analogy again, m’liege.

      Twice at my office, and now on my phone. It’s a shitty analogy. Dropping a knight for two pawns isn’t terrible.

      Dropping a rook for two pawns is terrible.

    146. Ntilakilla

      Phil Jackson was going to resign Derrick Rose. Let’s not pretend he was going to show proper restraint this offseason either.

    147. Bruno Almeida

      30 wins this year is fine if you believe the Knicks already have their future core in place, meaning that you believe at least one of KP, Willy, Ntilikina or THJr will eventually provide superstar production and at least two more of those will be good NBA starters.

      I think we have 3 good NBA starters amongst that bunch but I still don’t see a superstar, so there’s no reason to intentionally go for 30-35 wins.

      if the team trades Melo and starts the young guys and eventually wins 35 games because the east sucks and the kids show substantial improvement, that’s a fine outcome. If they suck and the Knicks get a high lottery pick, that’s fine too. However, starting veterans like Rondo, Melo, Lee or Noah in search for an 8th seed with 37 wins is the worst possible scenario.

    148. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      @152

      I think you’re missing the word “both”–Jowles was talking about trading *both* knights for two pawns

    149. Ntilakilla

      Winning 35 games with a core composed of KP, Willy and Frank would be impressive considering the age and lack of NBA experience. That is something to build upon.

    150. Bruno Almeida

      @156
      yeah, Id be totally fine if this is the starting core and the team wins 35 and challenges for a playoff spot.

      I just don’t want the team to chase 35 wins with veterans as if it is a big achievement.

    151. Z-man

      “and ws48 certainly overrates high usage scorers, its well known”

      This is conjecture. There may be some correlation, but that doesn’t mean on its face that it “overrates” volume scoring. Perhaps you and others underrate it.

    152. thenoblefacehumper

      Winning 35 games with a core composed of KP, Willy and Frank would be impressive considering the age and lack of NBA experience. That is something to build upon.

      Because we signed Tim Hardaway Jr., who might take us from 32 wins to 35 wins, I don’t really see how we’re going to be able to “build upon” that unless someone massively bails us out of the Melo/Lee/Noah deals.

    153. Kevin Udwary

      The bet part about negotiating with restricted free agents is that if you wait a year, they will probably be unrestricted free agents and you don’t have to make a ridiculous contract offer that their current team would never match. But, you know, with our short window for success we HAD to have Hardaway this season.

    154. Ntilakilla

      Because we signed Tim Hardaway Jr., who might take us from 32 wins to 35 wins, I don’t really see how we’re going to be able to “build upon” that unless someone massively bails us out of the Melo/Lee/Noah deals.

      By letting this young core develop as the rest of the league gets older. Let them play together as a team and allow continuity to take shape.

    155. Donnie Walsh

      Cuban bought the Mavs in 2000. Since 2001, guess where the Mavs rank in wins? I’ll give you a hint, it’s not first, nor 3rd – 30th.

      Dolan acquired full control of the Knicks in 2000, too.

      And I couldn’t help but see where they, themselves, were on that win list. 2nd to last, ahead of only Minnesota by 10 wins (I’ll give the Wolves 15 games into next season to leapfrog them and make Dolan dead last (where he belongs.))

    156. Bruno Almeida

      @158

      it does in comparison to other stats, like wp48 for example… maybe overrates is not the right word, but gives more value to.

      and I have no issues with high usage scorers my friend, some high usage scorers are amongst my favorite players in the NBA, like Durant or Harden. I just hate low efficiency – high usage scorers who are overrated because of pointzz.

    157. Z-man

      Fair enough, BA, But in any case, Hardaway is neither a high usage nor a low efficiency scorer.

    158. Cock Jowles, Not a Knicks Fan Because Fuck This Team

      Twice at my office, and now on my phone. It’s a shitty analogy. Dropping a knight for two pawns isn’t terrible.

      I agree.

      trade both your knights for a pair of pawns

      But you also agree with me ; )

    159. Cock Jowles, Not a Knicks Fan Because Fuck This Team

      it does in comparison to other stats, like wp48 for example… maybe overrates is not the right word, but gives more value to.

      All-in-one stats make claims about the value of basketball outcomes in regard to wins. Or at least they should.

      PER: Taking a lot of shots is useful, even if you’re not very efficient.
      WS48: Taking a lot of shots is useful, but less useful if you’re not very efficient.
      WP48: Taking a lot of shots is useful if and only if you are more efficient than average.
      RPM: [This information is the protected property of Disney, Inc.]

    160. Bruno Almeida

      yeah, that’s a much better explanation than I could come up with.

      In his career so far Hardaway Jr has been a decent efficiency guy with slightly above average usage, its not bad by any means. What I meant is that ws48 will be more kind to players like Hardaway Jr than other stats like wp48 and even still, he’s right at the average point in ws48… which goes back to my argument that he’s not good, he’s an average player, specially when you consider that he pretty much only adds value to a team with scoring, nothing else.

    161. TheOakmanCometh

      Hardaway on his conversation with Knicks management:

      They said straight up, ‘You have to obviously improve a lot more on defense and improve a lot more on the offensive end.’

      Other than offense and defense, though, he’s worth every penny.

    162. Ben R

      You have to look at the THJ signing under the assumption that KP is going to be a superstar. If you do then it’s a C+/B- move.

      If you believe KP isn’t likely a superstar than the THJ signing while terrible isn’t the problem not immediately moving KP is the problem.

      KP has a ton of value right now. If you believe him to be a young superstar then you keep him and make moves along that assumption. If you don’t believe him to be a young superstar you trade him immediately for a bunch of assets and start over.

      Those are the only two smart moves. Anything else is hedging and being too safe.

    163. swiftandabundant

      @ 161 – you’re talking to a brick wall here. The only way you can improve a team on knickerblogger is by high lottery picks and or adding a superstar in free agency when you’re all ready a good team. No other way to improve! Players don’t get better! Even players in their mid or early 20s. They don’t get better ever! You can’t ever improve a team with a mid level exception or a mini mid level exception. You can’t improve with coaching.

      We won’t improve at all with this core when Noah is done with his contract either.

      Didn’t you know? The Warriors were always a 70 win team. They didn’t go from a 30 win team to a 50 win team to a 70 win team.

    164. Bruno Almeida

      C.J Watson was waived by the Magic.

      I wouldn’t necessarily hate to see him on the Knicks on a vet minimum contract.

    165. Jack Bauer

      “Other than offense and defense, though, he’s worth every penny.”
      That about sums it up, the Knicks are the laughingstock of the league right now.

      All of this could be funny except eventually KP, Willy, and anyone else who turns out to be any good won’t want to stay in NY for the ongoing dumpster fire. That is the real cost of continually sucking and making idiotic move after idiotic move.

    166. swiftandabundant

      Man, Igoudala was such a dumb signing by the Warriors. I mean they were barely a playoff team. No way they’re gonna improve that much with Iggy esp in the loaded West with San Antonio, OKC, The Clippers. Why waste that money on an aging SG for what….leadership and intangibles like defense? I mean that core was capped out. Steph and Klay were all ready past the age of 23 at that point. What a waste of money!

    167. Brian Cronin

      He’s not wrong, but guess that answers BC’s question about Berman’s source!

      I definitely was reading Berman’s tweets earlier today, trying to get a feel for how he was presenting Mills with that very intent. :)

    168. Z-man

      I think it is fair to say that the Knicks are in a boat with a lot of other NBA teams right now. No matter the pessimism, no matter what the circus atmosphere in the press, we are really not in a bad spot relative to all but, say, the 8-10 best teams. Here is a list of teams that have lots of uncertainty looking forward 3-5 years: Nets, Hawks, Pacers, Pistons, Bucks, Hornets, Heat, Bulls, Magic, Suns, Mavs, Kings, Pels, Blazers, Nuggets, Griz, Lakers, Clips, Jazz, and yes, the Cavs! Some are winning now but fragile going forward (Cavs, Griz, Clips); Some are middling now but have promising situations (Bucks, Kings, Pels, Hornets, Heat); some are adrift in mediocrity with some albatrosses but not without significant assets, e.g good young core, draft picks, value contracts (Knicks, Magic, Blazers, Pistons, Lakers, Nuggets) and some are in need of a total rebuild (Bulls, Pacers) ans some have not yet turned the corner of the tanking process (Nets, Suns).

      GS, Boston, Toronto, Houston, SA, look excellent and sustainable. Wiz look good too. Philly and Minny looked poised to become contenders after successful patient rebuilds. OKC is hard to figure, depends on what George and Westbrook do.

      The point here is that we are in a pretty large group of teams trying to figure it out, and most of those teams have made regrettable moves, yet some in the media single the Knicks out and make it look like our situation is totally hopeless. Other teams don’t take half the heat when they make crazy signings. Where is the outrage when guys like Parsons, Carroll, Bazemore, or more recently, Waiters get grossly overpaid?

    169. Bruno Almeida

      @171

      the Warriors had Curry and the one season they really sucked was because he got injured, when Klay was a rookie… then they drafted Draymond, brought Barnes and Iguodala the year after, and with the insane improvement from Curry and Draymond specially became the wonderful team they are.

      my question is, who is the Knicks Curry? who is the Knicks Draymond?

      unless you believe KP, Willy, Ntilikina or Hardaway Jr are the answer to both those questions, your argument makes no sense at all.

    170. Brian Cronin

      C.J Watson was waived by the Magic.

      I wouldn’t necessarily hate to see him on the Knicks on a vet minimum contract.

      Yeah, I could see that making a lot of sense. He’s been terrible in Orlando, and very likely has just fallen off of a cliff after turning 30 (which happens often enough), but he was a good player before then for a number of years, so he’s probably worth a minimum deal.

    171. Bruno Almeida

      @176

      I agree with you in many ways here, it is an uncertain future and the Knicks might be well positioned.

      about the last point only, its New York and it’s the team we overanalyze every day. Im pretty sure Grizzlies fans hate Parsons contract with a burning passion and the franchise has received A LOT of hate because of it… most ATL fans I’ve met also hate Bazemore and his contract, but those franchises have been successful recently and the Knicks haven’t… and it’s the biggest market in the league.

    172. Ntilakilla

      Didn’t the Warriors draft Green in the 2nd round? Wasn’t Curry a .128 WS/48 player at 22 years of age?

    173. Z-man

      Only in retrospect, not nearly as much as Hardaway received at the time of the signing.

    174. Bruno Almeida

      the answer is probably the same: New York.

      if the Knicks signed Parsons to that contract there would be even more hate and vitriol, for sure… but that doesn’t make the THJr contract less of an overpay.

    175. Z-man

      RE: WP48 vs. WS 48, they both seem to rate Hardaway similarly…an average to slightly above average player.

      I think THCJ’s statements are overly simplistic. You seem to imply that WS48 is overvaluing volume shooting by not properly valuing efficiency. But it can just as easily be claimed that WP48 undervalues “inefficient” shooting, and overvalues “inefficient” rebounding. If a player only grabs 5 rebounds a game, but gets every rebound he goes after, why don’t we celebrate him as a more efficient rebounder than the guy who goes for every rebound and only gets 15 of them?

    176. Donnie Walsh

      Man, Igoudala was such a dumb signing by the Warriors. I mean they were barely a playoff team. No way they’re gonna improve that much with Iggy esp in the loaded West with San Antonio, OKC, The Clippers.

      How is the Iggy signing like the Hardaway signing? (this analogy makes less sense than the pawns/rooks/knights analogy – maybe it’s time to give up apologizing for the incompetence of Knicks brass and get used to another shitty few years of NYK b-ball).

    177. Donnie Walsh

      if the Knicks signed Parsons to that contract there would be even more hate and vitriol, for sure…

      Only if the Knicks had just traded Parsons for the cap space used to tender him that ridiculous contract.

    178. thenoblefacehumper

      Man, Igoudala was such a dumb signing by the Warriors. I mean they were barely a playoff team. No way they’re gonna improve that much with Iggy esp in the loaded West with San Antonio, OKC, The Clippers.

      Hardaway becoming an Iguodala-level player would have to be literally the single biggest leap any player who was average at age 25 has ever made. You can make pro-Hardaway arguments without completely debasing yourself, dude.

    179. TheOakmanCometh

      Parsons was an overpay, but he also:

      -was a better player than Hardaway
      -had a longer track record than Hardaway
      -fit a position of desperate need for Memphis
      -was joining a win-now team of older players
      -got his offer during the biggest seller’s market in history
      -did not receive a trade kicker or player option

      Memphis was overpaying for production that they needed to win playoff series. We are overpaying for production that we don’t need right now because we suck anyway. By the time we rebuild and get good in 3 years, Hardaway can just opt out.

      So no, it wasn’t media bias against New York that caused the Hardaway signing to be mocked more than the Parsons signing.

    180. Jack Bauer

      &188 I hope that you’re right and we’re good in 3 years and Timmy opts out
      That would be a great outcome and problem to have in my opinion

    181. ax1

      At this point today after several years of wanting to trade Carmelo, I have decided to waive the flag and in all seriousness keep Carmelo Anthony on the Knicks.

      We arent getting anything special for him, we cant sign anybody significant because of both salary cap reasons and who would want to come here after all the commotion…We cant replace Carmelo in the next couple years and probably more, its impossible.

      I say lets see how this team works out, fill up some holes, Hornecek free from Jackson to run his own system. We have Porzi of course and some other decent players.

      The only hope now is WITH Carmelo….without him there is nothing to look forward too since we have no change of rebuilding or losing enough games to get a great draft pick.

      Carmelo for 2017 and on, Im really asking for it. He is our best chance to hit the playoffs, our only hope.

    182. Cock Jowles, Not a Knicks Fan Because Fuck This Team

      I think THCJ’s statements are overly simplistic.

      I know you do, but I’m not about to rehash WP48 vs. WS48 vs. eyetest for the thousandth time here. We all know that WP48 is flawed.

      You can talk about how teams need to be able to identify players who contest 80% of available rebounds and those who contest 20%. I might agree, but then again I don’t have a staff of maybe-paid video-analysis interns from Harvard/Yale/Stanford who can create proprietary statistics that rate individual possessions w/r/t effort, grit and hustle (or, hell: timing, discipline, positioning) to create a better picture of individual player contribution than simple binary box-score stats can give us.

      WP48 > conjecture about what the box score doesn’t capture

    183. Cock Jowles, Not a Knicks Fan Because Fuck This Team

      The crazy thing about Parsons is that Memphis is not the first team he’s fleeced.

      Edit: Nah, I was wrong. He was pretty good with Dallas in 2015-16.

    184. Donnie Walsh

      The crazy thing about Parsons is that Memphis is not the first team he’s fleeced.

      Edit: Nah, I was wrong. He was pretty good with Dallas in 2015-16.

      Plus, as Brian has pointed out, he’s got a charm that free agents simply can’t say no to over dinner (see Jordan, D’Andre)

    185. Brian Cronin

      The Dallas contract, though, was designed to be bad for Dallas (so that Houston wouldn’t match it). It had a crazy trade kicker and an opt out after just two seasons!

    186. ptmilo

      WS48: Taking a lot of shots is useful, but less useful if you’re not very efficient.

      Insofar was you’re implying that inefficient, incremental usage helps your WS48 number, this isn’t true as a general matter (but it is mostly true about PER). I could go into the whole Dean Oliver points produced formula that undergirds Win Shares to show how inefficient marginal usage is usually detrimental to your WS, but spending a lot of time on the details of advanced metrics on these boards seems to be a bunch of time that just disappears into the ether. Just look at some of the Offensive Win Share #s from some classic high usage, low TS years and compare them to players with similar peripherals, similar TS, but much lower usage (and yet higher WS and OWS). It’s easy to isolate the high usage inefficiency penalty in those cases. Compare Kobe at the end to DJ at the end. Or Westbrook as a rookie to Eric Snow in 03-04 or Alvin Williams in 00-01.

    187. stratomatic

      There isn’t one solution that works for all cities under all circumstances. The smart teams take advantage of whatever the market is offering given their position at the time (draft, trade, & free agency). What they all have in common is that they are smart. They make mostly good value judgments.

      Houston didn’t draft Harden or CP3. They went through multiple gyrations putting the pieces together to have the team they have now and made quite a few mistakes along the way.

      OKC just went from middle of the road back to becoming a serious team again after trading for Paul George.

      Boston has loads of draft picks, but they became good getting Thomas, Horford, and now Hayward without drafting them.

      Morey is basically considered a superhero at this point, but right now he has Ryan Anderson on his books for 20 million. If you ask me that’s a whopper of a mistake! If Phil did that he would blasted by the press endlessly. So obviously they all make mistakes. The good ones make more good moves than bad moves, build in a variety of ways, and are given the time to execute their plan. They aren’t run out of town every time they screw a deal up or because the press is too dumb to understand them.

      The one and only thing that makes the THJ a bad deal is the price. Nothing else.

    188. stratomatic

      The one and only thing that makes the THJ a bad deal is the price. Nothing else.

      Actually, that’s not entirely accurate.

      What also makes it worrisome is that it was the first deal we made post Phil Jackson and a reputable GM turned down the gig because he wouldn’t have basketball power. That’s screaming that this wasn’t just a one off deal that seems like an overpay by an otherwise competent guy. It may mean we are back to being full blown idiots.

    189. kevin5318

      @DreamShakeSBN
      I (@ethanrothstein) was sitting right in front of Woj, overheard him say a Melo deal is likely tonight. FWIW.

    190. Bruno Almeida

      Well, Morey also got Harden for almost nothing and people will cut you a lot of slack if your team wins 55 games and gets CP3 on top of it.

      even good GMs get fired when they don’t bring results over an extended period of time, like Hinkie for example…

      the problem I see with following a similar plan like Houston is that it is much more uncertain than building through the draft in my opinion. There’s a much lower chance imo that a stupid franchise decides to trade you a bona fide superstar than finding one via the draft. Yes, you get some nice seasons where you dont suck completely, but do you trust any Knicks GM, under Dolan’ s influence, to find the kind of trades Morey has found? I dont.

    191. Z-man

      Morey made a big chunk of his bones on Knicks pseudoringchasing incompetence. So did Ujiri.

    192. Donnie Walsh

      Morey made a big chunk of his bones on Knicks pseudoringchasing incompetence. So did Ujiri.

      Exactly.

    193. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Bullock with Pistons 2yrs 5m why couldn’t we have signed him to that deal but for three years 7.5 instead meh

    194. Ntilakilla

      LOL. Supposedly Houston is offering us Anderson for Melo. I swear, at this point I’d just bench the motherfucker and tell him to suffer the season in NYK because there is no way I’d pay him to play for Cleveland or take on Houston’ shittiest contract for him to go over there.

    195. ClashFan

      I’ll take Anderson and his crappy contract, but I want 2 pieces. Hartenstein and a near future #1 pick (2020?). Toss in just enough expirings to make the salaries work.

      Knicks are not going to be serious contenders for at least 3 seasons, anyway, so just rent the cap space for 3 years while all the young guys develop.

    196. Cock Jowles, Not a Knicks Fan Because Fuck This Team

      I wonder what it’s like to be Pat McCaw right now. Start against the real Cleveland team in the Finals, win a championship. Start against the Cleveland summer league squad, go 3-11 and get blown out by 20.

    197. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      I’d take an extra year of Anderson if it means we get rid of Melo’s cancerous on court personality and a second rounder

    198. Cock Jowles, Not a Knicks Fan Because Fuck This Team

      Anderson can’t play the 3 and Willy can’t play the 4, meaning more time for KP at 5 and more time with WHG on the bench. Naw.

    199. er

      I’d take an extra year of Anderson if it means we get rid of Melo’s cancerous on court personality and a second rounder

      Why not just not cut Melo. You can buy a 2 without the 20 lol for Anderson

      Salt

    200. Z-man

      Agree that we shouldn’t trade Melo unless we get an advantage in assets. This isn’t a pure salary dump. Keep him, bench him if he doesn’t play right, and force him to either opt out or wait until after trade deadline 2019 to buy him out.

    201. d-mar

      If we’re smart (yeah, I know) we just keep turning down Houston’s offers until we get what we want. We all want Melo gone, but no reason to rush.; we need to make it clear that we’re willing to keep him.

    202. Grocer

      I don’t think a late first round pick is worth taking Anderson’s contract. Just keep Melo, fuck it. Stop handing away future cap space, the cap’s not going up anymore.

    203. Bruno Almeida

      If the Knicks were taking Anderson, to be honest, this deal would have already been done.

      it hasn’t been done because either the Knicks are asking for substantially more (be it picks or different players) or only willing to accept Anderson if he gets flipped to another team (which is why the Blazers rumours surfaced in my opinion).

      if it’s Anderson plus any pick or Hartenstein I’d do it, he doesn’t have a NTC and should be desirable for a fringe contender somewhere down the line. I’d rather get a 3rd team involved and get another player instead, of course.

    204. dtrickey

      If the Knicks were taking Anderson, to be honest, this deal would have already been done.

      Agreed. Why prolong things unnecessarily? It feels like the Rose for Rubio trade. If it was a straight swap it would have been done, which leads me to believe we are holding out for more.

      Twitter seems to have all but confirmed Melo to Houston is happening, just a matter of how and when. I saw a tweet that said someone overheard Woj say it could happen tonight, but I would take that with a grain of salt.

    205. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      As a non baseball fan, how good is Aaron judge, really? His HR numbers are eye popping, but I don’t know anything about baseball stats

    206. bidiong

      Judge is having an amazing rookie campaign. Way better than Sanchez last year but we’ll have to see if he holds up. He’s currently in the MVP discussion as a rookie. That rarely happens. If he’s a beast best year and doesn’t get the injury buzz we could have the next Yankee epic superstar.

    207. KnickfaninNJ

      For all of you who are saying we have good pieces and youth, remember that this was also Isaiah’s plan. He did execute it and he actually got reasonable players. All the players who were on the team when he took over were so lousy they were out of the league in a year or two. Some of the players he got are still productive players. But he didn’t have a good team. This could easily happen here too.

      Every year Phil was here, he tried to have a coherent team. Of course he didn’t do very well at getting that, but I think part of that was Melo’s and Rose’s fault, since they didn’t want the same thing Phil did. I don’t see any evidence that Mills wants a coherent team. He has made some noises in that direction, but mostly has said he wants young, athletic players. So I am scared of this new regime.

    208. dtrickey

      Every year Phil was here, he tried to have a coherent team. Of course he didn’t do very well at getting that, but I think part of that was Melo’s and Rose’s fault, since they didn’t want the same thing Phil did. I don’t see any evidence that Mills wants a coherent team. He has made some noises in that direction, but mostly has said he wants young, athletic players. So I am scared of this new regime.

      I don’t think any team building strategy is without it’s risks. It’s just that it’s potentially more enjoyable watching a team of young guys with potential suck, than a bunch of vets that you know suck but have been pieced together anyway to win. If I am gambling on one or the other, I would happily go with accumulating young, athletic players.

    209. JK47

      For all of you who are saying we have good pieces and youth, remember that this was also Isaiah’s plan. He did execute it and he actually got reasonable players.

      Isiah and Phil made the same mistake, and the current regime is repeating it: building around guys who are “star” players because POINTZZ. From Jamal Crawford to Eddy Curry to Stephon Marbury to Steve Francis to Amar’e Stoudemire to Carmelo Anthony to Tim Hardaway Jr., that’s what this team has been all about for a real long time. Pointzz. I don’t think it’s even an intentional desire to get guys who get lots of pointzz, it’s simply that the Knicks are addicted to “stars” and in the mind of most people, lots of PPG = star player.

      That probably has something to do with the Knicks being a below average to fucking horrible defensive team every single year except one since the end of the Ewing era. There’s no sign of that changing any time real soon.

    210. JK47

      As a non baseball fan, how good is Aaron judge, really? His HR numbers are eye popping, but I don’t know anything about baseball stats

      Aaron Judge leads the major leagues in WAR, wRC+ and wOBA. He also leads the major leagues in slugging percentage and on base percentage. He has been the best hitter in baseball this year by a large margin. He has a high BABIP, which usually is a sign that a hitter is “lucky,” but he’s also third in all of MLB in hard hit percentage, which means his high BABIP is not likely very luck-driven.

      Quite frankly his performance is suspicious. A year ago he was a good-not-great hitter in AAA, and although he was a first-round pick he was kind of a fringe prospect. There’s a statistic called “isolated power,” which is basically slugging percentage minus batting average. It isolates a hitter’s extra base hits, and is one of the things you look for in a prospect. Last year, at AAA ball, his isolated power was .219. That’s decent. This year, just one year later, in the major leagues, it’s a Ruthian .362. That’s way higher than anything Mike Trout ever managed, way higher than Bryce Harper had in his MVP season, higher than Ken Griffey Jr ever had in a season, and very close to the career high .370 that Mickey Mantle had in his 1961 season.

      It’s fishy.

    211. JK47

      I should add that Judge is possibly benefiting from his game fitting well with the “fly ball revolution.” Since baseball developed StatCast, teams have started figuring out the ideal angle at which to try to hit baseballs. Aaron Judge is the ultimate “fly ball revolution” guy.

      Maybe he really did make that kind of leap because of a change in approach. That would be quite remarkable, and that would mean that there are certainly more Aaron Judges coming up the pipeline around baseball. The game has apparently tilted back to the hitters in a big way because of StatCast.

    212. english_knick

      Look, I want Melo gone – I really do. But it would be beyond negligence to take Anderson back if the benefits are Hartenstein and a 2020 pick. That’s what you pay to dump a three year, 69m deal. You don’t also give the other team the better player with the better deal. The nets just got a 2018first for the two years on Carroll’s deal!

      The really awful thing about the Anderson contract is that in what should be a critical year, with KP about to enter a likely very large contract, we would have nearly 70m tied up in him, Noah, Lee and Hardaway. Anderson is also old, one-dimensional and positionally redundant.

      Now if the deal brings back a couple of young timeline-friendly pieces and in the process breaks the Melo deal into smaller ones I can maybe accept them being longer. E.g. I like harkless as a piece.

      But then the problem is Portland or anyone else is viewing Anderson as a dump, not an asset. So one or more of the good assets – pick, hartenstein, has to go to them making the deal less good for us.

      Al of this comes down to the fact the Houston is simply not putting enough assets on the table to get Melo AND to dump Anderson.

      It all also lays bare just ow terrible the NTC is. If we just offered Melo to Portland we’d get harkless and other assets – more assets if we also took one of their dumb contracts. But of course we can’t do that.

    213. Ben R

      Count me in on those who would rather keep Melo and squeeze him until he opens up other trade possibilities rather than be in a worse cap situation post trade.

      No Anderson unless they take Noah. If they want to give us a terrible contract they have to take an even worse one.

      Hartenstein and a 2020 1st likely in the mid to late 20s is not very much certainly not enough to get me to consider Anderson. I don’t see the rush. We have all the leverage.

    214. er

      “This squeeze Melo”

      Theory is beyond idiotic. THJR….is already talking about wanting to play with him and we know how KP feels. You think this would be a good situation for our young players then you would make a fucking terrible GM.

      Cut Melo. That’s the solution. If not you have to take whatever shit Houston gives you.

      This is on Phil for the NTC. Cut the goddamn guy already so the team can move on.

    215. Ben R

      Cutting him is dumb it means two years on the cap. If he won’t accept more reasonable trade destinations then bring him off the bench till next summer when he opts out.

    216. Brian Cronin

      It really is such a fascinating situation. Houston clearly wants him, but if all they want to deal is Anderson (and the picks and Hartenstein) then it doesn’t work. But he’s motivated to go there and they’re motivated to get him. So it is all about whether Morey can convince some team out there that Anderson is worth actually giving something up to get him. I don’t know that he can pull that off.

      Perhaps it pushes Cleveland to try to get Melo? But Cleveland has even less flexibility than Houston!

    217. KnickfaninNJ

      Isiah and Phil made the same mistake, and the current regime is repeating it: building around guys who are “star” players because POINTZZ. From Jamal Crawford to Eddy Curry to Stephon Marbury to Steve Francis to Amar’e Stoudemire to Carmelo Anthony to Tim Hardaway Jr.,

      I agree with most of this, but think Phil was less oriented to POINTZZ than the others. He didn’t hire Noah for pointzzz, and of the guys you mentioned, only Carmelo can be considered Phil’s signing because he re-signed him. Phil also signed Rose, which also could be considered pointzz, but when it came to drafting and trading he always seemed to pick players who could defend, for example, Lopez, Holiday, Porzingis, Ntilikina, Grant, Thomas, Ndour, Plumlee, Baker, Vujacic and maybe O’Quinn. Derrick Williams didn’t fit this mold, and was gone after a year. It was just in hiring Rose, that he ignored defense completely, and of coures in re-signing Melo. I don’t have faith that Mills will want two way players. He hasn’t said anything like that. He said he wants young athletic players.

    218. KnickfaninNJ

      For the life of me, I don’t see how Houston is going to trade for Melo. But Morey has pulled rabbits out of hats before, so I could be surprised.

    219. english_knick

      The problem is, the x-factor in pulling off a trade when you lack assets is usually a stupid trade partner… I reckon Morey probably likes his chances!

    220. Brian Cronin

      Yeah, don’t get me wrong, I’d normally bet on Morey for something like this, as well, but man, I dunno, it’s going to be awfully darn tough.

    221. Z-man

      “Isiah and Phil made the same mistake, and the current regime is repeating it: building around guys who are “star” players because POINTZZ. From Jamal Crawford to Eddy Curry to Stephon Marbury to Steve Francis to Amar’e Stoudemire to Carmelo Anthony to Tim Hardaway Jr., that’s what this team has been all about for a real long time. Pointzz. I don’t think it’s even an intentional desire to get guys who get lots of pointzz, it’s simply that the Knicks are addicted to “stars” and in the mind of most people, lots of PPG = star player.

      That probably has something to do with the Knicks being a below average to fucking horrible defensive team every single year except one since the end of the Ewing era. There’s no sign of that changing any time real soon.”

      This post is hysterical, both definitions.

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