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Thursday, September 21, 2017

Knicks Morning News (2017.07.08)

  • [NYPost] Tim Hardaway Jr.? Shame on us for expecting real Knicks’ rebuild
    (Saturday, July 08, 2017 12:27:13 AM)

    Here’s the thing: The Knicks actually had built for themselves a safe place that is rare in professional sports, rarer still in the NBA, and all but impossible to achieve when you are talking about basketball fans in New York City. They finally had been freed from the basketball tyrannies of Phil Jackson, paroled from…

  • [NYPost] Tim Hardaway Jr. move proves Steve Mills isn’t Phil Jackson
    (Friday, July 07, 2017 9:08:45 PM)

    Ousted Knicks president Phil Jackson wouldn’t have done this Tim Hardaway Jr. $71 million offer sheet. The Knicks have moved on rapidly in philosophy in the 10 days since Jackson was railroaded out of town by owner James Dolan. “Young, long and athletic” — that’s the new motto of the Steve Mills-led July reign. Mills…

  • [NYPost] This is a Tim Hardaway Jr. Knicks fans won’t recognize
    (Friday, July 07, 2017 3:55:43 PM)

    When the news hit, Knicks fans generally reacted the same way. AAARRGGGGHHHHHH!!!! The news concerned a four-year, $71 million offer sheet to former Knick Tim Hardaway Jr. Why not just put a blow torch to a blank check while you’re at it? But not all see the Knicks’ offer to the Hawks’ restricted free agent…

  • [NYPost] Kristaps Porzingis drops biggest clue he loves Knicks again
    (Friday, July 07, 2017 9:21:14 AM)

    Kristaps Porzingis is back in the New York groove — at least according to his Instagram. The Latvian star dropped his biggest hint yet that his tumultuous offseason is behind him, posting another photo suggesting he’s raring to go with the Knicks next season. “Maan I miss some action.. who else does? [frowny face] is…

  • [NYPost] Knicks dump Marshall Plumlee, who was a Phil Jackson favorite
    (Friday, July 07, 2017 7:26:49 AM)

    The erasure of the Phil Jackson era continued Friday morning as the Knicks released burly center Marshall Plumlee to open up cap space. Plumlee was to make $1.3 million next season and the guarantee kicked in July 20, according to a source. The Knicks needed the room now. The release came the morning after the Knicks,…

  • [NYPost] Huge Tim Hardaway offer sends Knicks fans into meltdown
    (Friday, July 07, 2017 6:03:37 AM)

    In 2013, the Knicks drafted Tim Hardaway Jr. with the 24th overall pick in the draft. After two seasons in New York, the team traded Hardaway to Atlanta as part of a three-team swap in which they received a first-round pick that would become point guard Jerian Grant. Grant was then traded to the Chicago…

  • [SNY Knicks] Daily News Live: Knicks’ plans moving forward
    (Friday, July 07, 2017 6:41:13 PM)

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks, Tim Hardaway, Jr. agree on four-year, $71M offer sheet
    (Friday, July 07, 2017 12:00:50 PM)

    Restricted Free Agent Tim Hardaway, Jr. of the Atlanta Hawks has agreed on a four-year, $71 million offer sheet with the Knicks, according to sources at ESPN.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks interested in former Laker guard Buycks
    (Friday, July 07, 2017 10:51:16 AM)

    The New York Knicks have expressed interest in signing 28-year-old guard Dwight Buycks, who has bounced around between China and the D-League the past two years.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks waive Plumlee
    (Friday, July 07, 2017 9:52:00 AM)

    The New York Knicks waived center Marshall Plumlee on Friday, the team announced.

  • [SNY Knicks] Dotson hoping to establish himself in Knicks backcourt
    (Friday, July 07, 2017 9:46:00 AM)

    Knicks second-round pick Damyean Dotson hopes he can have a significant role in New York’s backcourt as a rookie.

  • [NYTimes] On Pro Basketball: With Phil Jackson Gone, Knicks Make Another Puzzling Decision
    (Saturday, July 08, 2017 1:03:50 AM)

    Signing Tim Hardaway Jr. to a $71 million offer sheet is betting big bucks on a player that the team didn’t embrace the first time around.

  • [NYDN] Knicks GM Steve Mills staking his reputation on Tim Hardaway Jr.
    (Friday, July 07, 2017 10:04:42 PM)

    Nothing says Steve Mills and Phil Jackson weren’t exactly seeing eye-to-eye quite like $71 million over four years to Tim Hardaway Jr.

  • [NYDN] Knicks waive Plumlee after signing Hardaway Jr. to offer sheet
    (Friday, July 07, 2017 6:13:47 AM)

    The Knicks announced that they have waived Marshall Plumlee on Friday.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks waive Marshall Plumlee to help clear way for Tim Hardaway Jr. if Hawks don’t match
    (Friday, July 07, 2017 9:24:30 PM)

    The Knicks on Friday made the first of what could be several moves to clear the way to bring back Tim Hardaway Jr.

  • 332 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.07.08)

    1. Zanzibar

      I thought this was funny.
      Bill Simmons ? @BillSimmons
      Me: “I know you overpaid Hardaway but i kinda dig his game, he was good last year.”
      Knicks pal: “We could’ve just drafted Monk.”
      (Silence)

      Actually, Shved (who’s available) might be a better analogy. When I looked at Timmy’s stats yesterday, my eye went to his 2P% of 53%. I figured he was an excellent mid-range shooter who could execute a KP PnR or PnPop. I rated it as a marginally bad offer sheet but nothing to get too exercised about. Ugh I’ve just looked at his mid-range shooting stats and he’s mediocre at best. He’s shooting a pedestrian 40% from 3-9, 40% from 10-15, and 40% from 16 to 3. Equally depressing, he’s been a very consistent mediocre shooter from 3 and mid-range throughout his whole career showing no real improvement. He doesn’t rate to improve in this regard since he’s an SG and his father probably had him practicing shooting since the age of 3. His TS% is mostly from a decent FTr, taking a large % of his shots at the rim, and finishing well. In the playoffs the last two seasons, the opponents shut that down and Timmy was an absolutely atrocious player. I’ve now changed my view from a “marginally” bad offer sheet to a bad offer sheet. I’d root for Atlanta to match but then I’d worry that we’d just blow that money on someone worse. That Mack deal is very scary.

    2. Zanzibar

      I wish our starting lineup this season would have been DJ Smith, Dotson, Harkless, KP, Willy.

      – Dotson’s 23yo and his game is NBA ready. Give him plenty of burn. Harkless is a young improving 24yo on a nice contract. Both Dotson and Harkless rate to be solid if unspectacular players.
      – We’d have looked to “shot creation” from Smith/KP and even Willy. Hernangomez’s post game’s got potential and his improving outside shooting could have stretched floor for Smith drives and Smith/KP PnR.
      – Try to pick up Hartenstein in Melo deal – give him and Artis some burn also. Also Labeyrie.
      – Pick up a couple of vets like Sessions on sweet 1 year deals to help in the transition. Play Baker and Randle at SG position.
      – I refuse to believe there isn’t a Minnesota deal for Lee and/or Lance. I mean these vets shot >40% from 3 and are decent defenders. Isn’t that what Thibs needs? Why wouldn’t he swap them for Cole and Bjelica now that he’s got Taj/Dieng?
      – Don’t know what to do about KOQ. Not much of a market for bigs; there are a few unsigned ones who could probably be had for cheap by some team. Maybe include him in any Melo deal so we wouldn’t have to take a bad contract. Maybe hold onto him and something might open up at trade deadline since teams are gonna be capped out and they could go over cap to sign KOQ if they took him at deadline. Heck maybe just re-sign him if puts up #’s similar to last season.
      – Preserve cap space. We’d be one of a very few teams who would have decent cap space next summer. Something very positive could happen.

      Smith would have been key and spared us from looking at “usage soakers” like Timmy and Waiters. Still could follow that plan but would need to go with Rondo and Sessions on 1 year deals if Hawks match.

    3. fmikieo

      Pass on Smith. Yesterday, today, tomorrow, and everyday.

      Knicks did right by picking Frank. Because defense matters.
      Because culture matters.
      Because BBIQ matters.
      And he’s the better jump shooter.

    4. Brian Cronin

      Dotson definitely has been good, but it really is amazing what age can do when you’re comparing players. Like, “Oh man, that guy looks so much more polished than everyone else. Oh…he’s three years older than the other guys. Duh.” Same with that guy that the Knicks are interested in after he did well against them in Summer League. Dude’s literally 28 years old!

    5. DRed

      Dotson is a pretty fringy prospect. There are lots of problems with the Hardaway signing, but having a guy who played okay in the summer lague is not one of them

    6. Zanzibar

      Dotson is a pretty fringy prospect.

      Do you feel Dotson’s skills won’t translate to NBA? He shot 44% from 3 in college and is able to knock down shots even when opponents are in his grill. He rebounds well and will probably be a decent defender. Isn’t that enough?

    7. ptmilo

      Pretty rough debut for Ball last night. 2-15, 15-15 who cares, but he had trouble staying in front of anyone on defense. Did make a lot of nice passes that weren’t converted. Thomas Bryant has a motor like Faried. He doesn’t explode like Faried and is kind of a clumsy mover, but he’s bigger and longer. Seems interesting.

      I noticed Cameron Oliver playing on the Rockets summer league team. He doesn’t look like the kind of player who would go undrafted. Was that expected?

    8. ess-dog

      Yeah Buycks has been doing Summer League since I think Bill Clinton was in office. He definitely is what he is.

    9. ptmilo

      I don’t have any clue on Dotson. In summer league he had a better handle then I expected, and he can get off a balanced shot in reasonably thorny conditions. But he didn’t look great on D. He is muscular, but not big, and he got both pushed around a beat off the dribble quite a bit. He made pretty good decisions on offense, though, despite playing with a motley crew.

    10. DRed

      Dotson was a good shooter. He’s got solid rebound numbers, bad steal/block numbers, bad assist numbers, and he doesn’t get to the line. So it looks like he’s not a ball handler and he’s not a defender, he’s just a guy who can shoot. That’s fine, but it’s nothing to get excited about

    11. Totes McGoats

      I can’t lie, I am kinda anxious to see how TH2 develops as a 2nd or 3rd option depending on what moves the team makes for the rest of the offseason

    12. iserp

      No way TH2 is the worst signing of the offseason, I’d much rather have him than Waiters. However, the Knicks shouldnt be the team looking to sign him, we have other needs, and in our situation TH2 isn’t valuable.

      If not for the player option, it should be easy to move him at some point (He’ll retain his value until the end of his contract).

    13. Ntilakilla

      Pass on Smith. Yesterday, today, tomorrow, and everyday.

      Knicks did right by picking Frank. Because defense matters.
      Because culture matters.
      Because BBIQ matters.
      And he’s the better jump shooter.

      This. I hate to say it, but if you look at the trend in the league since 2013 the better players are coming from the Euroleague’s elite prospects. Giannis, Jokic, KP, Willy > KAT, Embiid, Turner, Wiggins. Its because Euro players have been trained to play the team game at a higher level.

    14. Zanzibar

      Pass on Smith. Yesterday, today, tomorrow, and everyday. Knicks did right by picking Frank. Because defense matters. Because culture matters. Because BBIQ matters. And he’s the better jump shooter.

      I think the plan in drafting Frank was to snare one of Rubio/Teague/Mills/Holiday for 2-4 years which would have given Frank time (and he’s gonna need it). Once we whiffed on those 4, the 1 guard horizon looks barren for the next couple of years. And who knows Frank may not have the skills to ever be a 1 guard. In retrospect, appears at this time that Smith would have been the better choice. It’s gonna be real depressing if Smith posts a Lillard like rookie year.

    15. ess-dog

      Dumb signing period, but what do we expect? This team will never do a proper rebuild. My guess is that we keep Melo now too.

      Wolves are looking to move Aldrich with a 1st as a reward. Guess we can’t scoop that now.

    16. Accidentank 2017

      Tim Hardaway Jr was an overpay but you have to overpay for RFAs. I don’t hate the move at all. You can say his TS% was inflated by his free throw rate, but his eFG% is a .537 which would have been #1 on the Knicks last year. This signing, no matter how Knicksy it feels, actually helps us because our team eFG% was dreadful last year. If KP, Willy, and TH2 start next year you’re looking at 3 starters with an eFG% over .500. That’s a far cry from last year when Derrick Rose, Carmelo Anthony, Joakim Noah, and Kristaps Porzingis all posted sub .500 eFGs the previous seasons. We don’t know who will be where, but there’s a good chance that KP, Willy, and TH2 lead the team in scoring on above average efficiency. We should see a better offense than the one we saw last year.

      I want us to tank as bad as the next guy, but it wouldn’t bother me one bit if the Knicks are a fringe playoff team led by young players drafted by the Knicks. Think about this for a second; if the Knicks are one of the worst teams in basketball that means KP is underperforming. Of course you have situations like Minnesota where two excellent players in Rubio and Towns can’t lift the rest of the trash on their roster, but it’s rare that happens and they weren’t a bottom five team anyway.

      The picture isn’t clear yet, but if the plan is to move Melo and Lee then I like what could come to fruition.

    17. chrisk06811

      So, what time today will we hear that the team that wouldn’t pay to keep Al Horford, Kyle Korver, Jeff Teague and Paul Milsap is not spending all their christmas $$ on Tim JR?

    18. chrisk06811

      did someone say Shved was avail? i wouldn’t mind him for a year at PG….at least he’s fun to watch.

    19. bockadoo

      The Hawks should say “Listen Little Timmy, you became a “good” player because of us. Why not cancel the offer sheet with NY, sign with us for $20m for 1 year, prove it wasn’t a fluke, and we’ll take care of you next year. Why go back to an organization that is a total shit storm?”

    20. Zanzibar

      Dumb signing period, but what do we expect? This team will never do a proper rebuild. My guess is that we keep Melo now too.

      Tinfoil hat time. It wouldn’t surprise me if this whole desire to trade Melo from the front office is a smokescreen. Melo “agrees'” to waive NTC but in reality has no intention of leaving and front office knows it and is on this subterfuge. These leaks and Portland trade is just a charade to make Melo and the front office look good, like they really are interested in rebuilding. Look for that Houston/Portland deal to fall through followed by “hey we tried”. Warkentien is still there and he’s CAA, Melo is CAA, and Mills is close to Zelig Williams (CAA consultant). My guess is this was a CAA power play and Phil was paid off 24m to keep quiet. Timmy’s offer sheet was a chameleon win now play. EC is so wretched that NYK could make the playoffs. Melo is a hero again, opts out and is given a nice new contract.

    21. sugarslim5

      Equally depressing, he’s been a very consistent mediocre shooter from 3 and mid-range throughout his whole career showing no real improvement.

      Your statements don’t define anything. Like what is a mediocre 3pt shooter from your perspective. But with Timmy, I look at the game logs not just literal stats, because he’s still in that developmental period of his career, where game logs tell you he’s crossing over to something better the season before. The last 2 1/2 months showed us an 18 ppg scorer. Oh and he also played on one of the slowest teams pace wise.

    22. Frank

      This was a bad move, but I don’t think it is as bad as the media is making it out to be.

      Ideal situation for me would have been to sign some bad vet PG to mentor Frank. Better yet, hire Andre Miller to be an assistant coach.

      Save the cap space, use it to get some more assets.

      Try to be good in 2018-19, not 2017-18.

      That said — the pundits all fall over themselves for Sean Marks (who I like) who has been throwing crazy RFA offer sheets at Tyler Johnson (who I like), Allen Crabbe, and now Otto Porter ($25MM AAV?!) with all the requisite poison pills. Those same pundits also assumed that KCP would be getting a max offer sheet from someone (which turned out not to be true of course, but they still thought it was totally reasonable for him to get a max offer sheet).

      What’s the difference between the Nets throwing overpay offer sheets and the Knicks submitting an overpay offer sheet? The difference (pundit-wise) is that one team has Sean Marks of the vaunted Spurs tree, and one team is the sad-sack NYK.

      It’s definitely an overpay.
      It’s definitely not what I would have done – I would’ve tried to be bad for one more season, then use that cap space.

      But the team hasn’t been in the playoffs since 12-13. We already have a base of young talent, and we have our draft picks. It’s not ridiculous to try to be better this year.

      The major questions about THJ will be his ability to get his 3P% up to 38 or so, and continued improvement on the defensive end. One good thing about him is his vanishingly low PF rate – one of the lowest in the league per 36 (1.7/36, which among guards would be 7th lowest out of 57). I don’t think that’s just a case of him being completely uninvolved on the defensive end, but who knows.

      I feel happy to have my optimist hat back on – one can hope that Ntilikina is the real deal, KP looks way better in a real offense, and w surprise some people.

    23. Zanzibar

      Your statements don’t define anything. Like what is a mediocre 3pt shooter from your perspective.

      35% is mediocre for an SG. Here’s Timmy’s 3FG% the last 4 seasons in order (earliest first): 36.3, 34.2, 33.8, 35.7. That’s a very narrow range; the odds are against him improving to 38%. It’s not like he’s Kidd who played the 1 and later improved or an injured big who decided to practice his 3 ball while out. Timmy’s been practicing and shooting his whole life. He was exposed on both the offensive and defensive end in the playoffs the last two seasons. He’s mostly empty calories.

    24. Ben R

      People keep calling this a win now move. I don’t think that’s how the front office thinks of it. He is 25 and does not play a position of need. The thinking is that he is a young piece that can be part of the long term core with KP,Willy and Frank. George Hill or Teague would have been win now moves.

      I’m not defending it, it seems like an overpay even with it being restricted, but THJ is a nice player that could legitimately be part of our core for the next 5-8 years. I think this is the front office, poorly mind you, commiting to a rebuild. We still won’t win anything with no PGs on the roster so worrying about us trying to win now is unfounded.

    25. Accidentank 2017

      3P% be damned, he takes enough to keep a defense honest and he has good eFG and TS percentages. Tim Hardaway Jr is a good offensive player whether you like it or not.

    26. KnickfaninNJ

      The media is saying it’s bad because we overpaid; and I agree, they are exaggerating how bad the overpay is and giving much less slack to us than other teams (except for the Times). But overpay is only a small part of why this board is so upset by the offer. It’s the total shift in strategy because we have a new GM that is the problem. Strategies don’t work when you change direction every two or three years, but the Knicks do that and it’s a big reason why we’ve been bad for so long. What’s more, the new strategy is much worse than the old one. Phil was lousy at a lot of aspects of GMing, but he wanted a team of smart two-way players who played team ball. And he was working towards that. I like that vision.
      Now we have a GM who wants young athletic players above all else and wants to make a “splash”. He hired Hardaway because of this. If he’s really lucky, in a year or two THJ turns into Melo-lite. I don’t want that. We’re likely to turn into last years Timberwolves. And when that strategy turns bad, which it will, we will get yet another GM and another team tear down. As said above, we are Charlie Brown.

    27. Frank O.

      Can the Knicks once make a deal that is so overtly positive?
      I mean, every Knicks move requires such a degree of denial to accept.
      I’m so tired of constantly looking for silver linings….

    28. Accidentank 2017

      Also, the Knicks are still running the triangle offense. Kinda like how D’Antoni got a bunch of shit for SSOL in New York and then Mike Woodson ran the same system but led the Knicks to their best season since the 90s? Hornacek is going to do the same thing and then everybody will buy into our motion offense with a pick and roll every now and again. The Knicks may still be able to field a competitive offense without a great point guard. I’m still holding out hope for Marcus Smart, but we’ll see what happens.

    29. fmikieo

      Another detail everyone is overlooking: in order for this offer to have been made, both Gaines and Hornachek had to of signed off on whether THJr was worth adding to the Knicks or not.

      It would be hard for an interim PoBO to overpay an RFA with cover from the head coach and the head of scouting.

    30. ClashFan

      @32
      ? Mills has been GM for years and appears to be one of Dolan’s most trusted sycho…er… lieutenants. With Phil no longer over him, Mills is calling the shots.

      For good or bad, this is on Mills.

    31. KnickfaninNJ

      Another detail everyone is overlooking: in order for this offer to have been made, both Gaines and Hornachek had to of signed off on whether THJr was worth adding to the Knicks or not.

      This isn’t true at all. Those guys report to Mills. They might have been asked their opinions, but they can’t sign off on anything. In addition, they have no expertise in salary, so they probably werent even consulted on that part.

    32. Accidentank 2017

      I really don’t understand why this move is such a failure. To me, this would have been a bad contract for a guy like George Hill, who is 31 years old and would have been signed through his age 35 season. TH2 is somewhere between a poor man’s Klay Thompson and a smarter JR Smith, and both guys started in the NBA Finals 3 years in a row. He’s a good “4th best player in your starting line up” kinda guy.

      I understand opportunity cost; spending the money we did on him when we could have absorbed bad contracts for draft picks would have been a better strategy, but too many bad contracts is debilitating. The Amar’e Stoudemire dead money alongside the Melo overpay kept us from adding Chris Paul. Could you imagine having the Noah dead money,the KP max extension, AND say Evan Turner’s terrible contract on the books? At least TH2 has a chance to be good at basketball over the life of his deal even if he doesn’t give us surplus value.

      We should also look to Gerald Green’s time in Phoenix for some encouragement. Green and Hardaway are similar players, and I’d even argue that Hardaway is better. On that 48 win team, Green posted a .547 eFG% and a 585 TS% on 20 points/36. That’s a valuable player. Of course he gave them surplus value on that contract, but I think if TH2 gives you similar production (and he’s already in the ballpark) you’re getting good value on a free agent.

      It has always been my belief that free agency is a shitty way to build a team in a salary cap league. I don’t think this was a good deal. I don’t hate the move, though. I think his fastbreak game, his age, and his stats make this a passable contract. It’s not the back-breaking Joakim Noah deal unless TH2 regresses into sucktitude.

    33. Bruno Almeida

      @25

      the difference is that Marks seemingly understands the market and all those contracts were eventually matched, which means they were in line with what the original teams were willing to give those players.

      besides, the Nets have no draft picks and can’t attract free agents, so their ONLY choice is overpaying for fringe dudes.

      the Knicks have massively overpaid a guy Atlanta was willing to give only 45 million, and they have draft picks which are once again going to be less valuable than they could have been.

    34. Bruno Almeida

      this stupid argument of “it’s not ridiculous to try to be better this year because we haven’t been to the playoffs” is exactly the type of shit that makes the Knicks a joke.

      yes, it is ridiculous to make costly moves that will make a team marginally better when it ignores opportunity costs + devalues your own most valuable assets.

    35. er

      I am starting to agree with the tinfoil theory above. This move was a perfect move to keep Melo.

      I won’t be surprised if he stays. With Melo, I don’t see why this isn’t a playoff team.

      Mills probably will tell him that KP is the focal point and he needs to adhere to that and follow Horny’s rules to stay…….

      They are a vet point guard away from that IMO.

    36. 2FOR18

      Well here we go again. It’s deja vu all over again. It took a full day, but the usual suspects are on board with the latest calamity.

    37. Accidentank 2017

      Here’s a look at Tim Hardaway’s 4th season in comparison with the 4th seasons of DeMar DeRozan, Bradley Beal, Klay Thompson, Evan Fournier, and Khris Middleton:

      http://bkref.com/tiny/KFmtO

      Shooting guard is the least valuable position on the court, but those guys all went on to sign massive contracts at the time. With the exception of Klay Thompson, those guys didn’t deserve the deals they signed by their 4th years. I’d take pretty much all of them on the Knicks with the exception of Fournier who had a pretty bad year for the Magic last season. Either way, TH2 compares favorably to all of these guys in their 4th NBA season.

    38. Accidentank 2017

      I don’t think the deal is the end of the world. The contract was bad, but I’m not going to protest grabbing a 25 year old shooting guard who is on the upswing.

    39. Bruno Almeida

      @40

      yeah, here comes the “optimists” with the Knicks apologism, every move is good and has upside!

      55 wins predictions come to mind.

    40. Ntilakilla

      LOL. What kind of a numnut do you have to actually be to believe this team is one veteran PG from playoff contention? Wow.

    41. TheOakmanCometh

      @36

      Exactly right Bruno. The Nets don’t have their own picks so they have no incentive to tank. They might as well overpay decent players and try to win as much as possible. We do have our picks, and should therefore be tanking.

      If we keep Melo, it’s entirely possible that we make the playoffs with 36 wins in a terrible Eastern Conference. Which is something I do not give a rat’s ass about. Watching this team slog it’s way to 36 wins before getting swept by Cleveland should not bring anyone any joy.

      We need young stars. The only way to get young stars is to draft them.

    42. Ntilakilla

      Melo is aging goods. His WP/48 shows he doesn’t make much of a positive difference for any team he plays for. The only way and I mean ONLY way we make the playoffs is if KP or Willy or any of the young guys take the superstar step and have a HUGE season. But this team is going nowhere if its built around Melo.

    43. Bruno Almeida

      winning 36 games and getting the 8th seed would be my absolute nightmare scenario… and it’s possible, because the east is so shit.

    44. Farfa

      I think we’re the second worst Eastern team (and that’s because of continued bad GMing). How in the hell can we be a playoff contender even with a veteran PG?

    45. Ntilakilla

      winning 36 games and getting the 8th seed would be my absolute nightmare scenario… and it’s possible, because the east is so shit.

      You underestimate how shitty we are.

    46. er

      Melo is aging goods. His WP/48 shows he doesn’t make much of a positive difference for any team he plays for. The only way and I mean ONLY way we make the playoffs is if KP or Willy or any of the young guys take the superstar step and have a HUGE season. But this team is going nowhere if its built around Melo.

      If you read my posts I said KP is the focal point .

      Also 2 teams are dropping out being chi and Indy.

      I think the Knicks would be as good if not better than Detroit. The heat will definitely take a spot.

      I’m not saying the will. But it should be at least close if they get a decent PG.

      Again not saying I’m in favor of this plan

    47. stratomatic

      Definition of rebuild among NY fans and most basketball writers: Suck every year, get lottery picks (some of which will turn into busts); and hope 4-6 years later you’ve accumulated 3 star quality players so you can consider adding quality players in free agency that will make you a serious contender 2-3 years after that as your star draft picks mature and their salaries explode.

      My definition of rebuild: Accumulate young talented players via draft, trade, and free agency that are all on approximately the same development schedule until you are good enough to become a serious contender.

      As far as I am concerned, signing Hardaway “the player” was a good move. He’s a good scorer (which we needed), still young, still developing, and by all accounts a hard worker and good kid. There are going to be quite a few lottery picks from this draft (which was a very good one) that turn out worse than Hardaway (maybe even our own). A pick like that costs you a year out of your rebuild.

      When you get a RFA player via free agency, you will have to overpay a little or the other team will match. The only issue here is that we probably could have gotten him for 60m instead of 70m. So we gave away 2m-3m a year away from out cap for no good reason. Not smart. Pretty dumb in fact. But not crippling or enough to have a tantrum about, especially since he might grow into the contract.

    48. Mike R

      A lot more optimism today then the last two days. I don’t have a problem with people trying to look at the positives here but the bottom line is we were bidding against ourselves. If we really wanted him we probably could have gotten him for 4/52 – 4/60 max with no trade kicker or player option. To me that’s the worst part. Why would you ever include a trade kicker or player option. He woulda signed without those. Just next level dumb. I could live with 4/71 if we didn’t include those two things. It’s like the melo Ntc. We never ever learn.

      I think our main problem with this move is its just like all the others in recent years. We can never look at a deal and say wow the knicks got a good deal. Because the knicks never get a good deal. I mean honestly when’s the last time we were able to say that?

    49. TheOakmanCometh

      Hey, just because the excuse-makers were wrong about Rose, Noah, Melo, Phil, Amar’e, Fisher, Melo re-signing, and Bargnani, doesn’t mean that they’re wrong about Hardaway. This unjustifiable move is SURE to work out, because reasons (TBD later).

      People are only criticizing it because of the lamestream media, who has been so unfair to the Knicks during their years-long run of great success.

    50. thenoblefacehumper

      Definition of rebuild among NY fans and most basketball writers: Suck every year, get lottery picks (some of which will turn into busts); and hope 4-6 years later you’ve accumulated 3 star quality players so you can consider adding quality players in free agency that will make you a serious contender 2-3 years after that as your star draft picks mature and their salaries explode.

      Definition of rebuild among NY front office: Suck every year despite spending a lot of money because the players you spend on aren’t actually good, get late lottery picks after your attempt at the 7th seed fails (assuming you didn’t trade them away for a “veteran point guard to mentor Frank”), and hope continuing this cycle over and over again somehow bears different results at some point.

    51. DRed

      Hardaway is a dumb signing, but it’s not extremely dumb if we get rid of Melo and Lee. But we have to get rid of those guys, especially Melo. He’s got to fucking go.

    52. Ntilakilla

      Seriously, this team could have been in a better position right now if the FO did nothing in FA/trade market from the moment Melo’s first contract expired and just drafted the same way. That means no ridiculous NTC for Melo, no Noah and Rose deals, etc. Just keep losing and accumulating high picks to build a team with.

      Now what does that say about how shitty our FO is? That they are actually performing worse than if we had no FO to make any offseason, non-draft moves?

    53. Accidentank 2017

      I am dead set against Derrick Rose returning to the Knicks. I think Rondo would be a disaster. The Dion Waiters rationalizations were laughable to me. I had stomach aches thinking about the Porzingis trade. This deal isn’t those deals, but okay. Color me a fool.

    54. JK47

      I won’t be surprised if he stays. With Melo, I don’t see why this isn’t a playoff team.

      This team sucked shit on defense last year. They were the worst defensive rebounding team in the NBA, they were 26th in the league in generating turnovers and they were below average in defensive FT/FGA. Add it up and you get the 26th ranked defense in the NBA.

      This is going to get better because we brought back Tim Hardaway? No. No, it isn’t. This is still going to be a shit defensive team, and as currently constituted this is probably a 31-win team again. Maybe worse.

    55. Jack Bauer

      Definition of rebuild among NY front office : Ignore point guard position, hand out large FA contracts to players that are over the hill and/or don’t mesh with the rest of the roster, and trade away any player that was a NY first round draft pick by the time their rookie contract is up.

      Definition of win now among NY front office : Ignore point guard position, hand out large FA contracts to players that are over the hill and/or don’t mesh with the rest of the roster, and trade away any player that was a NY first round draft pick by the time their rookie contract is up.

    56. Hubert

      I hate the deal. But if this team was determined to make a splash In free agency (and for some stupid reason, it appears we were), then this isn’t the worst way to spend it.

      Honestly I woke up today terrified of what we might do with our cap space if Atalanta matched.

      And the more I think about it, I’m not sure this actually does hurt our chances for the top pick next year, Bc he plays the same position as one of our best players last season, and he might be a downgrade.

      Of course, I would have preferred us rebuilding like a smart team and using our cap space to acquire actual valuable assets , but that’s too much to ask for. At least this dumb move can be overcome.

    57. JK47

      Timmeh isn’t even much of an improvement over what we had at two-guard last year. Last year we had Lee and Holiday, this year we have Hardaway and Lee. Lest we forget, Courtney Lee was actually pretty decent– he had a .559 TS% and a .080 WS48. Not great, but not a black hole. Holiday had a .549 TS% and a .073 WS48. That’s about 4,000 minutes of perfectly acceptable stopgap SG play worth about 6-7 wins. Is Hardaway a big upgrade over that? I don’t see it. Maybe he gets you an extra win or two.

      So instead of spending like $17M on Lee and Holiday and getting 7 wins, we’re spending $30M on Hardaway and Lee and getting 8 wins. I know Win Shares are a crude estimate of production but I’m squinting my eyes real hard here and I’m trying to see how we substantially upgraded at SG and I just do not see it.

    58. Bruno Almeida

      Nobody said it’s the worst deal ever, even the most pessimistic amongst ourselves have said Hardaway is not nearly the worst player the Knicks have overpaid lately… hell, this team just paid Noah last year.

      I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: the problem is that it’s a big contract for a player who is not good enough to turn the Knicks into a good team, and yet good enough to make sure more pointless wins come our way. I still can’t understand why the fuck so many people around here are completely fine with losing lottery spots to win 5 more meaningless games, it seems like basic logic to me.

    59. ess-dog

      “Courtney Lee would seem to be the odd man out if Hardaway comes in because they play the same position. But a league source said the Knicks aren’t looking to move Lee and that they plan to play him and Hardaway together. That could change, but the source said the Knicks want to have a mix of young players and veterans.” Via Newsday

    60. nygrec

      With a competent PG is probable that we will be marginally better than last year. And with ATL, CHI, IND most likely tanking we may be in contention for the playoffs or even in if Philly doesn’t improve as much and Miami + Charlotte regress (probable). But that shouldn’t be our target for the upcoming season.

    61. er

      @ 68 that was my point. 3 teams are dropping out and the Knicks depending on the PG situation will be better. (Just based on the growth of KP and Willy, and adding Frank and Dotson.) The team may have competent players. And if you get a good melo year…….

      I’m not saying it will happen just saying that it’s gonna be hard to tank in the east next year . You are going to have to try really hard.

    62. JK47

      With a competent PG is probable that we will be marginally better than last year.

      And this competent point guard is coming from where exactly? Right now the incumbent is an 18-year old who wasn’t healthy enough to make it into a summer league game and who by all accounts is extremely raw and possibly not even a point guard at the NBA level. His backup is Ron “Negative WS48″ Baker, who is obviously not an NBA-level point guard. Our point guards sucked last year but they look to be even worse this year. We got a mild upgrade at shooting guard, worth probably a couple of wins. We have aging Melo with another year of decline on him.

      The only way this team gets substantially better is with big improvements from KP and Willy, enough to offset what is probably going to be a dropoff in our already cruddy PG production. This is not going to be a good team or even a mediocre team unless some miracle happens and a real GM comes in here and makes some proper moves. This is going to be another unintentional tank.

    63. TheOakmanCometh

      If you consider this the worst move of the offseason, that means we will have made the worst move of the offseason in 3 of the last 5 years (also Noah and Bargnani). The odds of any one team doing that by random chance are 0.000036, or 1 in 27,912.

    64. mase

      Atl won’t match !

      This is exactly the reason I want to re sign holiday!
      The same contract we gave Noah to thjr without even moving the needle in the wins column.
      25 wins next season as the roster currently constructed imho.

    65. er

      And this competent point guard is coming from where exactly?

      Again idk why this is an argument. I’m not predicting anything. I’m just laying out the scenario. This could be a fringe playoff team.

      It’s not the craziest thing.

      “The only way this team gets substantially better is with big improvements from KP and Willy,”

      LOL DUH

    66. JK47

      So how’s that search for a new POBO goink? I’m sure Mills is looking real hard for a guy to replace himself.

    67. 2FOR18

      If the Knicks trade melo and Lee and don’t end up with Ryan Anderson or Evan Turner, I will definitely change my tune and buy a Steve Mills jersey.
      I just have the sinking feeling that melo is never leaving and is the shot caller in all of this.

    68. Accidentank 2017

      Justin Holiday and Courtney Lee are who they are and will not improve. Tim Hardaway Jr was already better than both of those guys last season and has room to improve. I’m not saying this deal was a slam dunk because it’s not. It was an overpay for a guy who is right now only an average NBA basketball player. Most times, though, players sign their second NBA contract because of projected improvement and not because they’re already established basketball players. I’ve just seen so many RFA overpays that turned into sensible contracts that I’m not about to freak out when the Knicks take part in it. Gordon Hayward, Bradley Beal, DeMar DeRozan, Klay Thompson, John Wall, Kyrie Irving, and Mike Conley all signed to deals that were at least questionable at the time. The Knicks probably think TH2 turns into a guy who scores from 18-22 points a game over the life of his contract on an above average efficiency. I can live with that, because it’s possible and we’d essentially have a taller CJ McCollum.

    69. Z-man

      So the preferred alternative for some here is to bitch and moan about things over which they have zero control?

      The front office is what it is. It’s been long established that they don’t give a fuck about what the discerning fan thinks.

      I am a fan of the laundry and have two chips under my belt, so maybe it means less to me. I hope that all deals work out as well as possible and that all draft picks, undrafted FAS, eurostashes and 10 day contracts become the next big thing.

      I truly don’t get how those who seem to absolutely hate the ownership and mgmt of this team waste time weighing in. Is it stupider to hope that TH2 becomes James Harden, or to complain that James Dolan, what a shock, continues to be James Dolan?

    70. nygrec

      @70.Its not improbable that we find an ok PG for little money. Remember Lin, Prigs, Kidd and even Calderon? Even Frank may exceed expectations. There are maybe 20% at best for anything of these to happen, but it is still a possibility.

    71. Jack Bauer

      Any Melo trade better include a first round draft pick – these are valuable assets even if our front office is unaware of this fact.

      Watch the FO get another shooting guard for Melo

    72. JK47

      So the preferred alternative for some here is to bitch and moan about things over which they have zero control?

      Why even have this forum at all then? I can’t come here and talk about it when the Knicks make shitty moves, I just have to accept it and keep my mouth shut? Why even bother with a Knicks blog at all.

      I truly don’t get how those who seem to absolutely hate the ownership and mgmt of this team waste time weighing in.

      Because there are other people here who are smart, and witty, and knowledgeable about the NBA, and who share my pain. I’d rather root for a good Knicks team, but since that isn’t coming any time soon, instead I’ll point and laugh at the shitty Knicks team that we have instead. I would love it if the Knicks made smart moves, regardless of how much I hate James Dolan and his lickspittle who is now making the roster moves. But they don’t, so here we are.

      You do you, I’ll do me.

    73. Jack Bauer

      It’s hard to weigh in on if Frank will be the current or future point guard because unlike most teams our first found draft pick is not playing in summer league. Throw another tire on the tire fire….

    74. Bruno Almeida

      @78

      do you think any of the people who you say are “bitching and moaning” about things don’t hope things will turn out well?

      I hope THJr will become the next Michael Jordan and the Knicks will sweep the Warriors in the finals. I just understand that it won’t happen and try to analyze logically why it won’t happen.

      I just don’t get why someone would come to a message board, where literally 0 of the words written here will have any meaning to the Knicks franchise, and that includes your hopeful wishes, and say something like this. Some people like to think about stuff in a logical way and like to discuss about it, and some would rather hope that the most unlikely shit will actually happen, even when they end up being wrong many times… to dismiss other people comments as useless bitching and worth less than your wishful thinking is what’s stupid.

    75. chrisk06811

      It’s not hard to talk yourself into liking this, you just have to take it in steps:
      -Most of us agree Timmy is a decent player
      -He’s young
      -He had the benefit of playing for not the knicks the last few years, and improved.
      -So, how much $$ do you think he’s worth? $13M?
      -Then, we overpaid by $5M. Just imagine what stupid shit we would have done with that $5M. Now we don’t have to worry about that. Plus, Timmy is deeply involved with a number of childrens and environmental charities, he will probably give them that $5M. Sure, I made that up, but it could be right

    76. kevin5318

      @JSports_ent
      Some players have been told it will happen. Per source it will be to Houston where he lands.

      @IanBegley

      Ian Begley Retweeted SportsCenter
      NYK still wants to deal Melo. They don’t imagine a scenario where Hardaway Jr. is sharing the floor w/Melo to start the season, per @wojespn

    77. iserp

      If you consider this the worst move of the offseason, that means we will have made the worst move of the offseason in 3 of the last 5 years (also Noah and Bargnani). The odds of any one team doing that by random chance are 0.000036, or 1 in 27,912.

      The worst move of the 2013 offseason was Garnett and Pierce to the Nets (then lauded by the press) and not Bargnani.

      This offseason, Dion Waiters contract is worse than TH2.

    78. TheOakmanCometh

      The worst move of the 2013 offseason was Garnett and Pierce to the Nets (then lauded by the press) and not Bargnani.

      You’re right, that was worse. I’m not going to redo the math, but the odds of any team making one of the two worst moves in 3 of 5 offseasons is still infinitesimal.

      This offseason, Dion Waiters contract is worse than TH2.

      Considering that Miami is trying to win now and he’s being paid significantly less, I disagree. If Waiters maintains his level of play, he’s a tiny overpay that helps his team win 40-50 games. If Hardaway maintains his level of play, he’s a hefty overpay who takes his team out of prime draft position on the way to 33 wins. There’s no upside.

    79. Accidentank 2017

      TH2 would start on just about every team in the NBA excluding your obvious teams like Houston, Toronto, Golden State, and Boston.

    80. Accidentank 2017

      Bro giving Dion Waiters anything above a minimum salary deal is indefensible. Dion Waiters is one of the worst players in the NBA. We overpaid by $30M for TH2, and that’s because of restricted FA. The Miami Heat gave Dion Waiters $55M too much. He will singlehandedly keep them from having a good offense, and they will miss the playoffs again because of him. We need to get Phoenix on the phone so we can have the Miami 2018 pick.

    81. TheOakmanCometh

      Bro giving Dion Waiters anything above a minimum salary deal is indefensible. Dion Waiters is one of the worst players in the NBA. We overpaid by $30M for TH2, and that’s because of restricted FA. The Miami Heat gave Dion Waiters $55M too much. He will singlehandedly keep them from having a good offense, and they will miss the playoffs again because of him.

      2016-17 stats, per 36
      Waiters: 19 pts, 5 ast, 4 rb, 2.7 TO, 51% TS, -0.9 defensive BPM
      Hardaway: 19 pts, 3 ast, 4 rb, 1.8 TO, 57% TS, -1.5 defensive BPM

      How can you say Waiters is worth the minimum but Hardaway is worth $40m?

    82. DRed

      Justin Holiday and Courtney Lee are who they are and will not improve. Tim Hardaway Jr was already better than both of those guys last season and has room to improve.

      They were all close enough in production that I think it’s not easy to confidently say which one of them was the best. Hardaway has more upside than Holiday obviously (and Lee has none at all), but the cost difference doesn’t make it up. We shouldn’t have signed Timmy, because we had no need to overpay for a adequate 2 guard, but it’s neither the worst contract of the offseason or the worst signing we’ve made lately. We’ll have to see what else we do.

    83. Bruno Almeida

      oh thank god we don’t have the worst off-season moves in 3 of the last 5 seasons, it was only in 2 of them.

      in retrospect it’s easy to see how the Nets trade was a lot worse (and at the time it was clearly stupid), but Pierce at least played very well for Brooklyn and had a pretty good season, it was mostly Garnett who was a complete disaster… while everyone knew Bargs was completely terrible outside of the typical apologists.

    84. Accidentank 2017

      @95 I agree 100%. It wasn’t a good contract, and Hardaway’s numbers aren’t so much better than Lee and Holiday. I do believe he was a better player than both guys, though, and I think he’s helped out by the fact that he is the youngest of them all. I can’t find the nerve to be angry about this deal at all.

      @94, you’re overlooking Dion Waiters’ ghastly .507 TS%/26.3 USG% combination. You need some excellent basketball players on the roster to overcome that type of offensive black hole. Hardaway Jr posted a .568 TS% on a 22.5 USG%. That is a lot better than what Dion Waiters did.

    85. kburt8

      If the rumors of Melo to Houston are true, here’s the trade I’m hoping for.

      HOU: Melo, Crabbe
      POR: Anderson, Gordon
      NYK: Ariza, Harkless, Davis, Vonleh, HOU 1st

      Portland dumps two contracts, clearing 7m in salary.

      Ariza could probably be flipped for a first at the deadline.

      We could also swap Lee/Gordon if Portland prefers.

    86. Accidentank 2017

      Nobody is saying the Knicks are a competent franchise or that the Knicks made a good decision to sign TH2. Speaking for myself here, I believe the Knicks took a risk on a player that was trending upwards, and that is a move I have seen play out well for a lot of teams over the past decade. It was an overpay, but even if Tim Hardaway Jr’s numbers remain consistent you at worst have a guy who scores efficiently and does nothing else. It’s a bad allocation of resources, but in a vacuum it’s not a franchise crippling contract. I know this is hard to believe, but Tim Hardaway Jr and CJ McCollum are in the same ballpark when you look at their efficiency and per 36 numbers. CJ McCollum is also grossly overpaid, but I’m sure nobody would be pissed if the Knicks gave CJ the same contract TH2 just got.

      If Carmelo Anthony and Courtney Lee get traded do we still hate this move?

    87. Ben R

      This is far from the worst move of this offseason.

      There is logic to this signing. If we are just looking at our young core that is KP – PF, Willy – C, Frank – PG. We have no wings as part of our core. All the fringe players and veterans are just noise. All liable to be gone or replacable by the time KP is in his prime. The front office thinks THJ is good enough to slot in as part of our core for the next 5-8 years. That’s somewhat debatable and the contract was a massive overpay but no one would have batted an eye at 4 years 50 million so while we did overpay at least it was an overpay for a good young player and not an old or bad one. I would love it if we stopped bidding against ourselves, but at least this time the player in question isn’t terrible.

      I am not someone who normally defends the front office, I hated the Rose trade and the Noah signing and thought the Lee and Thomas signings were shortsighted. I am not saying this was a good move but everyone needs to step back from the ledge. Looking a couple years into the future rather than at next season this could be a solid move. We have our super star in KP, we have two good young starters in Willy and THJ, if Frank (big if) turns out to be a good starting PG that’s 4/5 of our team set for the next 5-8 years.

      Not what I would have done but certainly not the disaster that many of you are making it out to be.

      As for tanking next year, all signs indicate that KP is going to take a step forward and picking 1-5 was probably out of the cards anyway unless we actively bench KP and Willy and start throwing games.

    88. Bruno Almeida

      @101

      I’m sorry, but what are those signs?

      KP improved his ts% a little but regressed in comparison to his rookie numbers in pretty much every other statistical category… he’s had a worst ws48 last year than his rookie season.

    89. Boriqua3

      With all the points made, numbers cited and/or overall whining, there’s not a lot of talk about the obvious. The Knicks don’t even need to make the playoffs to be a financial success.
      Dolan is the epitome of mediocrity. Yet there’s no incentive to change. The Knicks product will sell.

      I’d settle for a Knicks team that was fun to watch. THJ looks like a step in that direction.

    90. ClashFan

      Okay, so I’m reading that the Knicks have now also renounced Rose (as expected), Sasha, and Baker.

      I thought Baker just signed a 2 year deal?

    91. Owen

      Everyone thought the Boston-Brooklyn deal was ridiculous at the time. That’s in the pantheon.

      If Melo and Lee are gone it mkes more sense (obviously I am still not a fan of the move.)

      I can’t believe Houston wants him though. And somehow, I feel when the dust settles with the Melo trade we won’t be much better off

    92. iserp

      Well, for me, TH2 is in the realm of “below average starter”, but his best years are ahead of him. It is an overpay if he keeps the same level of play (which is most likely), but barring injury, he is a reasonable player to have, and he could be part of a future with WH and KP, so it is not that bad.

      I wish the team had not signed anyone but a PG to have nice ball movement, but this is far from the worst outcome.

    93. Ben R

      @102
      For a player like KP their third year is usually their make or break year. Either he takes a step forward and he is star or he doesn’t and he isn’t. He improved defensively and before he wore down offensively quite a bit over his rookie season. If he continues that improvement and doesn’t wear down he will be looking a lot more like the star we hope him to be. There is a reason the NBA went apeshit when they thought he was on the market. Boston was reportedly willing to give up a lot more for KP than either Butler or George.

      We have two choices as a franchise, either assume he will be a star and move forward like he will be our superstar or move him now while his value is still sky high.

    94. Accidentank 2017

      I just don’t see the problem with adding a 25 year old TH2 to play with a 19 year old Frank Ntilikina, a 23 year old Dame Dotson, a 22 year old Kristaps Porzingis, and a 23 year old Willy Hernangomez. I’m not sure what we can trade Melo for at this juncture in the off season, but it would be nice to see us get some more shots at young guys or draft picks.

    95. JK47

      For about one glorious week it looked like the Knicks would stop chasing the #8 seed, and stop throwing money at empty scoring-oriented one-way players with no secondary skills.

      Those were heady times, last week.

    96. Totes McGoats

      RE: TH2 & 3PT%
      Since when is 36% from 3 mediocre? Oh..since the SSOL started the focus and the Dubs revolutionized it. 36% is a decent number- even better for scorers who don’t just wait for kick out passes. No, it’s not great..but it certainly isn’t crap for a scorer. I think alot of people erroneously compare scorers’ shooting percentages to the elite shooters in the league. There are only a few elite shooters who are also scorers for their team. GS has really skewed fans opinion on shooting and scoring because they do it so well. I dunno..maybe I’m trying to talk myself into TH2’s possibilities- but I just don’t think it’s fair to expect every scorer to shoot at the Dubs’ level or consistently even close. They are the exception, not the rule.

    97. Bruno Almeida

      Ben, I agree that we have to consider him our superstar and work with the possibility that he actually is.

      I’m just saying that he hasn’t really improved much, so there’s no real indication that he will “continue to improve”.

      and please, can we stop with the Dotson thing? there’s plenty of reasons the kid was drafted in the 2nd round, and he hasn’t played one meaningful minute, yet people are already treating him like he’s going to be a meaningful contributor this year.

    98. Zanzibar

      Bizarre idea which would help mitigate our shot creating concerns now that we’ve failed to sign Rubio/Teague/Mills and there’s no palatable 1 guard available for the future and Frank’s a complete crap shoot at the 1 and Dotson looks promising and Harkless is on the way:

      Trade Frank for DJ Smith?
      – Should we do it?
      – Would Cuban do it?
      – Does CBA allow it?

      Our youth by position:
      1: Smith
      2: Timmy, Dotson, Baker, Randle
      3: Harkless, Artis
      4/5: KP, Willy

    99. Accidentank 2017

      Dennis Smith Jr lol, not DJ Smith.

      I wouldn’t do that trade, though. I like Frank’s two way potential more than any guard in this draft not named Fultz.

    100. JK47

      If Hardaway is indeed an improved defender, this deal won’t look quite as bad. He was truly an awful defender in his time with the Knicks, an “F” grade defender. Hawks fans seem to think he has improved, but I’ve been sold this bill of goods before. Courtney Lee was supposed to be a plus defender, but he’s actually kind of crap. He plays a very soft brand of on-ball defense. Plus the Knicks have a lousy team culture when it comes to defense. Since the breakup of the 1999-2000 Finals team, the Knicks have been a bad to horrible defensive team every single season except one, the first year with Chandler.

      Hardaway played 2,000+ minutes for the #4 defense in the league last year, so he has that going for him. But it would not surprise me in the least if he falls back to his non-defense playing ways when he puts the orange and blue jersey on. We’ll see, I guess.

    101. BigBlueAL

      I wish the Knicks had a young core like the Yankees now do. Frazier walk-off HR!!

    102. plenty

      Dotson was a lot older than most of his draft mates, sure he had other other red flags but this is the 2nd round these are flyers anyway. There’s a lot of positive things to like about Dotson and I don’t mind getting upbeat about that, especially considering the recent signing, which I have not yet found a liquor strong enough to dull the pain of.

    103. Donnie Walsh

      TH2 would start on just about every team in the NBA excluding your obvious teams like Houston, Toronto, Golden State, and Boston.

      Add Atlanta to that list too.

    104. Zanzibar

      RE: TH2 & 3PT%
      Since when is 36% from 3 mediocre?

      It’s 35% not 36% and that’s mediocre for an SG. 35% would be OK for your 1 guard. The league average last year across all positions was 35.8%. Anybody have the average for SG position alone?

    105. Zanzibar

      I just don’t see the problem with adding a 25 year old TH2 to play with a 19 year old Frank Ntilikina, a 23 year old Dame Dotson

      Because they’re probably all SGs. How did this notion even arise that Frank’s even a 1 guard? There’s no evidence for that and from what I’ve read he’s more likely to be an SG. Flip Frank for Smitty and we’re fine. Our major problem(s) would be solved. It would be hilarious if Cuban hired again that Ntilikina coach after just hiring and firing him.

    106. thenoblefacehumper

      I’m almost more demoralized by the news that they’re keeping Lee than I am about the THJ contract. Don’t get me wrong–the THJ contract sucks, but I thought it at least demonstrated some level of understanding of timeline, the human aging process, etc. Basically it’s better to overpay for young mediocrities than old ones.

      But if the idea is really to have “a mix of veterans and young talent” or whatever, that’s really dumb and just asking for low draft picks with limited flexibility.

      The more things change…

    107. Totes McGoats

      It’s 35% not 36% and that’s mediocre for an SG. 35% would be OK for your 1 guard. The league average last year across all positions was 35.8%. Anybody have the average for SG position alone?

      TH2’s career average is less than league average, but last season he shot 35.7% from deep, which is practically 36%. I just don’t think 36% is a mediocre number if you’re being relied upon to score. It’s just not an elite number. But why would 35% be ok for your 1, but not your 2? I would hold all guards to the same standard. If your 2 is relied upon to score, then he handles a hefty load just like your 1 handles a hefty load running the offense. 2 different types of loads, but hefty nonetheless. Derozan, for instance, has mediocre 3pt percentages. His highest was roughly 34%. Don’t get me wrong, I’d much rather see TH2 shooting 3’s with a percentage of makes more like Courtney Lee if he’s gonna use alot of possessions- but when I hear people use the term mediocre, it means bad to me. Maybe that’s where our signals cross on the issue

    108. Zanzibar

      Ian Begley? @IanBegley 3h3 hours ago
      NYK believes Courtney Lee & Hardaway Jr. can be effective together, as 1st noted by @JSports_ent

      Win now or nobody’s interested in Lee?

      It’s not a stretch to read this statement from GM Steve Mills as more evidence that the Knicks are looking to trade Carmelo Anthony –

      I’m not taking off my tinfoil hat yet. Still think CAA cabal disinformation might be at work. Rondo/motivated Melo/KP/Willy/Timmy/Lee/KOQ/Noah/Dotson/Frank/Lance could make playoffs in abominable EC. Melo then opts out and is lavished a 4 year/75m deal by NYK.

      Worst part is Melo and Timmy cost us KAT. Now they’re gonna cost us Doncic or Porter.

    109. Accidentank 2017

      Frank Ntilikina played off guard in France because he was taller than the other guy lol. He’s a point guard.

    110. JK47

      The Knicks have five shooting guards and no point guards.
      How many good defenders are on this roster right now? None?

      Clown team, bro.

    111. Ntilakilla

      Was just told that Carmelo Anthony is at the 24 Hour Fitness in Meyerland, which is in the Houston area.— Matthew Cardenas (@CardenasMaLWOS) July 8, 2017

    112. Ben R

      If you look at THJ’s overall shooting efficiency then the fact that his 53% efg% and 56% ts% are good despite him being an average 3 point shooter shows a place for improvement. Much better than the same efficiency being propped up by a hot year shooting 43% from 3. 3 point shooting has a lot of variance and many players improve as they age. 2 point shooting and free throw rate, two things Timmy is good at are harder to improve and are more stable through a players prime.

    113. Accidentank 2017

      We’d have to get a 3rd team involved and/or take back Zhou Qi in any trade with Houston.

    114. Zanzibar

      The Knicks have five shooting guards

      Test your Knick IQ by completing the following series:

      Lee..Baker…Randle…Frank….Dotson….Timmy…???

      Correct Answer: Crabbe

    115. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      Any trade with Houston is difficult to rationalize. I don’t want Ryan Anderson, but I don’t want Eric Gordon and Trevor Ariza either. This trade is going to suck.

    116. thenoblefacehumper

      There’s no way I can think of to trade Melo and/or Lee without taking back a lot of salary. Our cap sheet is presumably doomed whether or not we’re able to move them. THJ at this number would be a lot easier to rationalize if we were starting fresh like the Nets, but it’s looking like he’ll be the last significant piece we can add.

    117. JK47

      Thing is though, Melo still has that horrible NTC. So if you move him for “bad” contracts like Gordon and Ariza, at least you can trade Gordon and Ariza later without their approval. It’s kind of like breaking the MMM NTC into smaller, more movable pieces.

    118. supernova

      Haven’t posted in a long time and for good reason as this franchise continually shows that it has no clue. This later misstep (THJR sigining) and not focusing on a full rebuild all reflects back to Dolan, who can never come to the conclusion that this franchise truly needs a competent GM/President. For some reason he has appointed competent management on the the Ranger’s side, but cannot seem to do the same for the Knicks. This isn’t difficult to fix, go find savvy executives who know how to run a fucking franchise and let them run the show without any interference. Is that difficult? There is likely much talent NY could raid and install in their front office from GSW, Spurs, Rockets, Celtics, etc that that know how to evaluate talent properly and build a team. Pay them whatever and get out of the way. Sadly I resigned myself last year after the debacle of the Noah signing and the Rose trade that this team will be a cellar dweller for the rest of my life as long as Dolan owns this franchise. He is a cancer on this team.

    119. ClashFan

      Look, the Knicks are going to be crap for the next 3 years, pretty much no matter what.

      With Noah and Timmy locked in for those years, why not just go ahead and deal Melo for Anderson and whatever expirings can be tossed in for balance, as long as the Knicks get a #1 and/or Hartenstein back?

      Get one decent asset, keep your first round picks, and try to draft well. Try to move Lee and OQ for something of minor value whenever the opportunity presents itself.

      So, Noah, Anderson, and Tim are all locked in for 3 years (Tim probably for 4). Tank away. See how KP, Willy, Frank, and the next couple of #1 picks develop. The team will really suck this year, but maybe improve a bit in years 2 and 3; then Noah and Anderson come off the books.

      This is not how I wish it would have been done, but at this point, this may be about the best we can hope for.

    120. JK47

      It’s like we’re rolling the Sisyphean boulder up the hill, then we sign THJ and that shit rolls back down to the bottom. The Knicks have been doing exactly this for almost 20 years.

      All you can really do is point and laugh.

    121. Jack Bauer

      @137 “this trade is going to suck”
      Of course it will, why would anyone expect anything different this time?

      That being said the Knicks better get back a first round draft pick in any deal for Melo.

    122. CaptainB

      Stop it. No one is giving up season tickets or quitting the team.

      Trading Melo is best. The team needs him gone for many reasons.

    123. JK47

      Oof, season tickets. This team sucks so bad I won’t even shell out for League Pass.

    124. Mike R

      I’m all for rebuilding but this team must show some potential for improvement within the next couple years or KP will be gone once he hits free agency. 2017-2018 is a wash we’re gonna suck but 2018-19 we have to at least be competitive and make the playoffs. Now that doesn’t mean making these stupid win now moves like we have in the past. We just have to hope our young core improves and we add a few nice young assets to that core to the point where this team becomes decent in two years. None of this will probably happen tho. Not with millls.

      This will be the 11th season mills has been employed by this franchise. They never once had a winning record in that time. They made the playoffs once in 03-04 with a record of 39-43 and got bounced in the first round. Mills was not part of the franchise from 09-13. In those 4 seasons they made the playoffs Three times and had winning records in three of those seasons. So basically since 2003 the knicks have had winning records in three seasons. All of which mills was not employed by this team.

    125. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      I’m having a very hard time imagining a situation where a 3rd team comes in and makes sense for us. Detroit? Minnesota? Phoenix? Portland?

    126. supernova

      If the Knicks wanted to bring back a former-Knick they should have brought back Cole Aldrich, who Minny is looking to dump, along with a first round pick. Then hopefully get another first for Melo and maybe a late first or second for KOQ. Accumulating picks should be the goal, not overpaying for marginal players like THJR. Fire Mills!

    127. Z-man

      I’m hoping Dolan has a traumatic brain injury that renders him incapable of making bad Knicks decisions. I’m also hoping that THjr outperforms Harden. Since neither will likely happen, I will probably just continue whining about why the impossible doesn’t happen.

    128. Totes McGoats

      Thing is though, Melo still has that horrible NTC. So if you move him for “bad” contracts like Gordon and Ariza

      Doesn’t Ariza expire after this season?

    129. JK47

      Doesn’t Ariza expire after this season?

      Ariza does expire and he’s on a reasonable contract but theoretically Melo would be taking his starting slot so he’d be kind of superfluous for them.

    130. Brian Cronin

      Win now or nobody’s interested in Lee?

      Could very well be both, sadly enough.

    131. Totes McGoats

      One more thought about TH2..

      He looks bigger than 6’6″ 205 to me. Not alot heavier, but he looks a little taller. He looks to be closer to Derozan’s size than his listed measurables.

    132. supernova

      As compared to all other team front office NYK is the worst right?
      I meant there is a lot of mediocrity out there in terms of front ofices, Det, Sacto, Chi, Indiana come to mind. Even the recent Miami signings have me SMH, but still I would take Riley in a heart beat over what we have.

    133. Brian Cronin

      Ariza does expire and he’s on a reasonable contract but theoretically Melo would be taking his starting slot so he’d be kind of superfluous for them.

      CP3 specifically mentioned wanting to play with Ariza again as a reason for coming to Houston, plus he’s one of their few plus defenders, so he’s likely not going anywhere. Gordon seems like he could be more moveable, though, as Gordon was the de facto point guard with the second unit and now obviously they’ll have Harden or Paul on the court at all times to do that.

    134. Brian Cronin

      As compared to all other team front office NYK is the worst right?
      I meant there is a lot of mediocrity out there in terms of front ofices, Det, Sacto, Chi, Indiana come to mind. Even the recent Miami signings have me SMH, but still I would take Riley in a heart beat over what we have.

      A lot of bad front offices out there, so I dunno. They’re definitely among the worst, and probably have one of the top 2 worst owners, but there are so many bad front offices that it’s hard to figure out just where they rank. Look at the shitshow in Milwaukee, where they have three owners who all hate each other and hired a guy to be the heir apparent to their GM when their GM retired, but then their GM instead got another gig and they didn’t even promote the guy they hired to be the heir apparent because one of the three owners vetoed it!

    135. Mike R

      Wow these contracts are crazy Harden got paidddd.

      The celtics threw in a second round pick just to trade Bradley that’s crazy as well.

    136. Zanzibar

      Knicksiest Trade:
      Knicks…..Anderson, Gordon, 2023 2nd round pick
      Houston..Melo

    137. Ben R

      I think the Hardaway signing was a bad move but I was also against us using the cap space we have to absorb a contract and take a pick unless: A the contract is short or B the pick is likely mid lottery or better. I think we needed a quality PG and couldn’t afford to take on a big contract because of Noah.

      For those of you who wanted to asorb someone like Turner or Crabbe for a future 1st, how is one of them on your cap and the 18th or 19th pick in a future draft really better than THJ?

      THJ is likely better than the player you draft and better now and in the future than Turner or Crabbe and the cost to your cap is similar.

      Also THJ is better for KP’s timeline, and honestly that should be the only thing that the Knicks are thinking about. How do we maximize our superstar’s window?

    138. yellowboy90

      Smith Jr had a nice 1st game. He missed a few open jumpers in the 1st half but still played with control then picked it up in the 2nd half. He went for 14 pts, 7 rebs, 6 asts, and 1 tov.

      Defensively he went under and swithched off way too easy at times but other times he played well.

    139. Cock Jowles, Not a Knicks Fan Because Fuck This Team

      Rumor mill says Carmelo is on his way to the Rockets. I’m sure we’ll take on some long contracts to make it work, thereby making the original Melo deal the Treaty of Versailles of Knicks history.

      I cannot believe how badly he has fucked this franchise. Gave up the farm to get him, gave him an unconscionable extension, took back Ryan Anderson through the next decade to get rid of him. Good riddance.

    140. yellowboy90

      Hopefully, the Lee stuff is an anti-Phil move to keep his value up. However if they do like Lee I don’t get keeping him over Holiday.

    141. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      I’m really interested in what the Melo trade eventually turns out to be. I might be in the majority here, but I fully expect Hernangomez and Porzingis to be too good for a tanking strategy to actually work. We need a point guard, and, according to Berman, the Knicks are only looking at a Rondo or Rose type for a single season. Mills claims he wants to build a roster around “youth, athleticism, accountability, and unselfishness.” That sounds good to me, but we’ll see how that eventually turns out. I may be in the majority here, but I would much rather keep Melo and let him opt out next June than take on more salary. I don’t want to become the Trailblazers of the East; being the Knicks is bad enough.

      We need to find a deal that works for us. Long term contracts like Anderson’s need to be shipped elsewhere.

    142. Ben R

      @167

      Absolutely!

      No long term contracts back in the Melo trade unless they help the team or come with real (top 15 pick) assets. Otherwise he comes off the bench until he opts out next year.

    143. JK47

      Yeah, there doesn’t seem to be a really viable way to get Melo to Houston without some poor saps taking on the Ryan Anderson contract. And the poor saps are us, in case you hadn’t noticed.

    144. Zanzibar

      Look, the Knicks are going to be crap for the next 3 years, pretty much no matter what. With Noah and Timmy locked in for those years, why not just go ahead and deal Melo for Anderson and whatever expirings can be tossed in for balance, as long as the Knicks get a #1 and/or Hartenstein back?

      Yes, I think we have to accept that Mills & Co are incompetent. Might as well try to find a diamond in the rough as we lard on all of these lousy contracts. Take Anderson and Gordon for Hartenstein, Zhou Qi, 2020 first round pick, and a couple of second round picks. What, of course, would happen though is none of these potential diamonds in the rough would get playing time. Hartenstein would be traded for the next Timmy and end up being Jokic on his new team. There’s no way to win here.

    145. Bruno Almeida

      getting Gordon back is not a bad thing imo, he’s definitely tradeable in the future to many fringe contenders… it will definitely be easier to get rid of whatever the Rockets throw us back than getting Melo out, so I would be happy with basically any offer that includes some sort of picks.

    146. Ben R

      I’m hoping maybe the Houston stuff is a smokescreen so teams like Cleveland that were hoping we would buy him step back up to the table.

    147. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Something I’ve noticed: Donovan Mitchell looks great against low level competition, but man he’s inefficient.

    148. er

      I cannot believe how badly he has fucked this franchise. Gave up the farm to get him, gave him an unconscionable extension, took back Ryan Anderson through the next decade to get rid of him. Good riddance.

      Yeah. Its like he was the President/GM/Owner for Denver, Houston and the Knicks. Its incredible.

      Its like he just signed. THJR

    149. Ntilakilla

      Poor Melo. What a hapless victim of every franchise he’s played for. He and his agent benefits from their incompetence by luck and have the misfortune of being blamed for it.

    150. er

      Poor Melo. What a hapless victim of every franchise he’s played for. He and his agent benefits from their incompetence by luck and have the misfortune of being blamed for it.

      Yeah im sure he and his agent feel imcompetent when they go to the bank.

    151. Brian Cronin

      I’m no huge Mitchell fan, but it really speaks to how good the draft was that he almost ended up not even being a lottery pick!

    152. Ntilakilla

      Melo and his agent are saints, naturally. Their selflessness has been poorly rewarded as they now are sacrificed for the sins of Knickskind. But they will continue to live as martyrs in eternity at the right hand of Basketball God. Praise be to Basketball Jesus! Hallelujah!

    153. bidiong

      You can’t blame Melo for taking care of himself. But you don’t have to like it either. That’s the reality.

    154. er

      @179

      if Ruruland is holding you hostage, please blink twice.

      Nah, unlike Ruru……”I aint scared of you mothafuckas!!!!!” (Bernie Mac Voice)

      lol. Next time someone says something anti melo i will also ask them if Jowels or JK47 is holding them hostage :)

    155. er

      You can’t blame Melo for taking care of himself. But you don’t have to like it either. That’s the reality.

      Yup….he fucked up that Heat trio by taking care of himself and messed up the Knicks by wanting a trade in season. I didnt like it at all.

    156. Ntilakilla

      Melo doesn’t just take care of himself. He takes care of all Knickskind through his selfless acts. He was taking care of Knickskind when he forced a trade that emptied the team of all its assets so he could sign a larger contract with us. He was taking care of Knickskind when he refused to take a paycut. He was taking care of Knickskind when he plotted to remove a headcoach, fellow teammate, and President of Basketball Operations. And now he is taking care of Knickskind as he selflessly forces the Knicks FO to trade him to only one of two destinations for next to shit.

      Praise be the Basketball Jesus!

    157. DS

      The sad thing is that I could see THJ having a year like Harrison Barnes had last year: 20 ppg (which, in the East in 2018, might get you into the All-Star Game), highly inefficient, widely praised.

    158. JK47

      @186
      I can’t blame Melo for any of those things. I really can’t.

      I blame the feckless morons who run this team, who could have said “no” to him at any point, but never did. We couldn’t have LeBron, so we settled for the destitute man’s LeBron, then proceeded to treat the faux-LeBron like the real LeBron for roughly a decade, giving him all sorts of leverage he never deserved. Melo is his generation’s answer to Mark Aguirre, or if you want to give him more credit, his generation’s answer to Dominique Wilkins. That is not a guy you should be treating like he’s some sort of fucking prince.

      But that’s not on Melo. That’s on the guy who sings in the shitty blues-rock band and the incompetents he hired to run his basketball team.

    159. #fireRambis

      Melo won’t leave, he wants to be in NY… that’s what Dolan likes about him.. no market for Lee so he plays SF, Tim at 2 and Melo at 4.. with KP and Willy rotation.

      hope get Rondo for 1 year deal.. unless they bring back Rose for 1 year

    160. Ntilakilla

      I can’t blame Melo for any of those things. I really can’t.

      I blame the feckless morons who run this team, who could have said “no” to him at any point, but never did.

      That’s like saying I don’t blame the con man for his scam, I blame the dope who fell for it. Well, it might be true that a mark is a mark. But its also true that the con man is a scumbag. One being what they are doesn’t excuse the other.

    161. BigBlueAL

      Say what you want about Melo but he was pretty damn good for the half season after the trade and especially the following 3 seasons. Problem was re-signing him to that contract and his play not surprisingly suffering as he got older.

    162. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      How exactly is Melo a scumbag for seeking out the maximum amount of salary he can from the Knicks like any other basketball player would.

      We could argue about his attitude I guess but it’s not as if he’s a bona fire cancer.

    163. plenty

      I don’t think comparing Carmelo to a scumbag proves anything, and is a little harsh. Can you really blame the man for asking for a max contract? I think you would have done the same in that situation. Either way it’s presumptuous to assume that what went on in negotiations was Melos idea vs his agents. It is the job of the franchise to make smart decisions, that’s why the players have their own union. You can’t expect the players to start making smart decisions for the teams.

      Don’t get me wrong, it’s great to see guys like dirk or Duncan take discounts for the greater good of the team, but these guys shouldn’t become the standard to hold everyone else to. You’re asking for too much from Melo if you think he himself personally conned the Knicks.

    164. Brian Cronin

      Yeah, I have no beef with Melo trying to get the most money he possibly can. It’s not on him to do anything more than that. It’s on the team to not give him the terrible contracts or make the terrible trades to acquire him (and possibly get rid of him). The guy cares more about money and his kid than he does about winning. There’s nothing wrong about that. Every person has different priorities.

    165. nicos

      Dennis Smith Jr.’s line from today was OK. I’m not exactly green w/ envy.

      The efficiency wasn’t great (.526 TS) but 7 boards and 6 assists against 1 turnover? I’d sign up for that stat line for a Knicks point guard every night but of course the Knicks don’t actually have a point guard so…

    166. Cock Jowles, Not a Knicks Fan Because Fuck This Team

      I will never blame Melo for trying to get as much money as he could out of the owners, even to the detriment of his fellow players. There’s no “mea culpa” regarding Melo, unless you think he manipulated the Knicks to gut the team instead of signing in the 2011 offseason. Even then, Walsh didn’t have to do it.

      Melo is the reason that the Knicks have largely sucked since 2010. He’s not good now, he was overrated then, and he’s been paid like a star all along. So yeah, good for Melo for making people believe he’s a superstar, but if you ask why the Knicks have won so little since he joined the franchise, the answer is “they built around the wrong guy.”

    167. #fireRambis

      like when Dirk told Chandler Parsons he is paying for lunch coz that’s his money he gave up.. seriously Melo is not too blame.. same as Chandler Parsons not to blame lol

      Dennis Smith Jr – if he or Monk gets better than Frank…
      just realised Harden will be 34 at the end of his contract… can’t blame him for that either

    168. Brian Cronin

      I will never blame Melo for trying to get as much money as he could out of the owners, even to the detriment of his fellow players. There’s no “mea culpa” regarding Melo, unless you think he manipulated the Knicks to gut the team instead of signing in the 2011 offseason. Even then, Walsh didn’t have to do it.

      Melo is the reason that the Knicks have largely sucked since 2010. He’s not good now, he was overrated then, and he’s been paid like a star all along. So yeah, good for Melo for making people believe he’s a superstar, but if you ask why the Knicks have won so little since he joined the franchise, the answer is “they built around the wrong guy.”

      Definitely, they made all the wrong moves with regards to Melo. And that’s the thing, they made the wrong moves, not Melo.

    169. er

      Melo is the reason that the Knicks have largely sucked since 2010.

      Eh I think James Dolan would like a say in this.

    170. Mike R

      @180 lol I would love a ruruland guest appearance on one of these threads. Stir the pot.

    171. DS

      The efficiency wasn’t great (.526 TS) but 7 boards and 6 assists against 1 turnover? I’d sign up for that stat line for a Knicks point guard every night but of course the Knicks don’t actually have a point guard so…

      I missed the 7 rebounds!

    172. Ntilakilla

      How exactly is Melo a scumbag for seeking out the maximum amount of salary he can from the Knicks like any other basketball player would.

      If that was only what he sought out, and played like a max player, it wouldn’t be an issue and he’d be worth the money. But that’s not the issue. He’s sold us a shit bill of good from the beginning telling us he was worth all of the resources and money this organization invested into getting and keeping him only to have at least one head coach fired, another teammate booted off, and then the team president forced out because they didn’t buy into what he was selling. Mind you, all of this is while he tells us he’s committed to winning, bringing a championship to NY, recruiting guys here. Its bullshit. And I don’t like being lied to. He’s a conman. You might not blame a conman for selling a scam, but he’s still a scam artist.

    173. Ntilakilla

      He forced Phil out now too. Hahaha damn man. You guys give this guy credit for any and everything huh.

      I bet you said the same thing when D’Antoni was fired and Lin wasn’t resigned. Its all by chance that everyone who he feuds with in the organization magically disappears! Holy Shit! Why didn’t I come to this brilliant conclusion! I am sure his decision to magically reverse course and waive his NTC AFTER Phil was fired for wanting to buy him out was also a chance coincidence! Poor Melo. These things keep happening around him and he gets unfairly blamed for them.

    174. Mike R

      It would be awful if randle was our starting pg to start the season. Would make me long for the days of toney Douglas doing toney Douglas things.

    175. kevin5318

      Lol we’re still blaming Melo for everything wrong with this team? We have arguably the worst front office in the league to thank for that.

    176. er

      These things keep happening around him

      It’s cuz he’s a Knick. Aka a James Dolan employee. It’s not that crazy bruh.

      You must be new. Welcome, have you seen JD and the straight shot perform yet?

    177. er

      Lol we’re still blaming Melo for everything wrong with this team? We have arguably the worst front office in the league to thank for that.

      Naw I’m just doing a ruru impression LOL

      Also I don’t think it’s arguable after this Hardaway fun. Have you seen the Kings moves lately?

    178. Bruno Almeida

      btw Toney Douglas is still available I think!

      at this point I’m mostly rooting for any Melo trade, no Rondo signing and that’s it, we can call it a mildly successful off-season all things considered.

    179. Ntilakilla

      It’s literally on record that Dolan was mad at Lin and Morey, and that’s why he didn’t resign him.

      LOL. You should do more research. Amar’e and D’Antoni have gone on public record as saying that the decision not to sign Lin began before the poison pill issue and had roots in a divided locker room. Guess who was the guy that they both pointed the finger to as dividing the locker room? Hint: it wasn’t Jarred Jeffries.

    180. Mike R

      What happened to ruru again? I forget. Wasn’t it something with the melo contract. He banned himself or something like that

    181. dtrickey

      Reading post TH2 signing comments from Mills saying the team is looking to get younger and more athletic. TH2 certainly represents that and based on that Melo is gone. That said, the execution was not right, which is pretty Knicksy. I like that the FO is a least conceding they need to get younger, which is positive, but it’s a solid D on execution. I hope Timmy proves us wrong. Interesting to read a few stats guys on twitter that they are projecting TH2 to provide abut $34m value on his contract which pretty much confirms we are all 100% it was an overpay.

    182. er

      Wasn’t it something with the melo contract. He banned himself or something like that

      Pour out a little liquor…….

    183. Ntilakilla

      It’s cuz he’s a Knick. Aka a James Dolan employee. It’s not that crazy bruh.

      Of course, poor Melo. He’s always been a victim of Dolan’s. It was Dolan’s magic powers who made Melo resign with the team too. And it was Dolan’s magic powers who made George Karl detest him too. And it was Dolan’s magic powers who made D’Antoni, Phil Jackson detest him as well.

      Damn you Dolan! Does your reign of terror know no end!

    184. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      I will always believe that Melo could have won a lot more with the Knicks no matter what the books say. During his first contract, it was the debilitating Amar’e Stoudemire deal that hurt. It was the poor usage of the amnesty on a guy we could have cut loose and only been on the hook for $3M instead of the whole $14M. Drafting Shumpert instead of Faried. The Bargnani trade. Taking a second round pick instead of Jae Crowder back in the Tyson Chandler trade. Using that second round pick on Cleanthony Early instead of Nikola Jokic (we have a great European scouting department so I’m holding this to their head). Not trading Shumpert for Isaiah Thomas. The Joakim Noah contract. The Knicks made so many dumb decisions independent of the Melo contracts that it’s hard to blame Melo for too much.

    185. er

      Ntilakilla is philmelo/RAS

      Smh. Go figure. The only guy I want to trip if he was walking down the street.

    186. Mike R

      Since we are in the business of bringing back former knicks I for one would love to see a toney Douglas reunion. Could you imagine the pure entertainment it would bring these threads. Those were the days.

    187. Ntilakilla

      Also why were the Knicks saying they would match anything until the very end?

      Because the Knicks ownership has never said something in public that they took back to benefit Melo. I mean we just had our owner, who promised on air that he wouldn’t meddle in Phil’s affairs as president, fire Phil a few months later after it was decided that his plan of buying out Melo’s contract wasn’t an option. Are you serious here our are just playing dumb for argument’s sake?

      PS – I am guessing you’re serious and are really this dumb.

    188. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      By the way, what about offering Ty Lawson a contract? He’d come cheap and he had some decent numbers with Sacramento this season.

    189. Mike R

      And instead of hardaway we should have renounced Rose traded lee or oquinn and signed gallinari. And btw, Raymond Felton was available this whole time and we sat idle. Wtf.

    190. Ntilakilla

      That I always fall for your stupid posts.

      LOL. You fall for any post that criticizes Melo only to rush in and defend his virtue.

    191. JK47

      One thing is for sure: Melo is the most BORING fucking Knick of all time. He’s boring on the court, he’s boring as a person, and this has been a long, mediocre slog of mostly shitty basketball since he came here. He was a’ight for a few seasons, actually crept up there into the .180 WS48 zone for a while, but he can’t jump over a deck of cards, he has no secondary skills and his entire game is a miasma of jab steps, long jumpers and haphazard drives to the rim where he misses then complains about a no-call. He is as dull as it gets.

      We’ll probably suck forever, but it will be a bright day in my world when Melo’s ass is finally gone.

    192. Mike R

      On a more serious note. Can anyone clarify what is going on with baker. Espn has us signing him then renouncing him then signing him. Does anyone know what the deal is?

    193. Ntilakilla

      We’ll probably suck forever, but it will be a bright day in my world when Melo’s ass is finally gone.

      Word. On. This.

    194. Cock Jowles, Not a Knicks Fan Because Fuck This Team

      Everyone in the league save Denver should feel dumb they whiffed on Jokic. Can’t pin that on the Knicks alone. He appears so naturally gifted that I can’t imagine he wasn’t showing signs of greatness as a younger player. Maybe a lack of PT in his previous roles? No idea. I see him as a surefire HOFer if he ends up on a competent franchise. The Nuggets have been struggling since Masai left.

    195. thenoblefacehumper

      The most annoying thing Melo did was when he talked for months on end about taking a discount, and then proceeded to take juuuuuuust about every penny. He has every right to take every Dolan Dollar he can get, it was just weird to get all of our hopes up like that.

      Regardless, the blame lies primarily with the numerous Knicks front offices who all fell for the perhaps the most overrated player of the past 20 years or so (Iverson makes it hard to say so definitively). Melo leaving the Knicks will be a good thing when if and when it ever happens.

    196. Ntilakilla

      @235

      The thing that irks me most is his talk about “winning” and playing “the right way” in the locker room when everyone knows damn well he doesn’t. Its like he thinks people are too stupid to realize he’s blowing smoke up their asses.

    197. Bruno Almeida

      @231

      on Jokic, he had pretty unimpressive stats for Mega Visura and pretty much was guaranteed to be a stashed player for at least one year, which I think got some teams scared of him… after he was drafted tho, he became a starter and destroyed the Adriatic League and the Serbian League, then came to the Nuggets right away.

    198. thenoblefacehumper

      LOL. I love this blaming the victim logic.

      I mean…in a system where the power balance is overwhelmingly in favor of the owners, I don’t blame players for trying to get all the money they can. Melo is no different. He named a price and found a taker. The Knicks were under no obligation whatsoever to meet his price, and had access to all of the resources the people on this board have access to (an internet connection, pretty much), but they did anyway. That’s on them.

    199. chrisk06811

      Melo is not the most boring Knick of all times. That was Eddie Lee Wilkins. OK, it wasn’t Eddie, but it was someone else. Howard Eisley?

    200. DavidCorperial

      @229

      From my understanding, we have agreed to a 2 year deal with Ron but haven’t signed him yet, the rescind was on his QO.

    201. JK47

      LOL. I love this blaming the victim logic.

      James Dolan is the victim? The various front office types that kowtowed to Melo’s various demands are the victim? No. They’re the perpetrators.

      When Melo leaves, Dolan and the fools he hires will continue to do stupid shit. Just watch. They’re doing it already and he’s not even out the door yet.

    202. JK47

      The thing that irks me most is his talk about “winning” and playing “the right way” in the locker room when everyone knows damn well he doesn’t.

      Now this is true, and is a valid point. Melo has been the face of the franchise for a long time now, and if the face of the franchise is giving zero fucks on defense and playing a me-me-me style of basketball, why should anybody do anything else different?

      I wouldn’t say Melo is a “scam artist,” but I do think it’s valid to call him a phony. He is kind of a phony.

    203. DS

      Melo is not the most boring Knick of all times. That was Eddie Lee Wilkins. OK, it wasn’t Eddie, but it was someone else. Howard Eisley?

      Michael Doleac.

    204. er

      the most overrated player of the past 20 years or so

      I think Jamal Crawford may actually be. Doesnt he have like 4 sixth man awards? Melo is definitely top 5 most overrated in the last 20.

      Iverson, Melo, Crawford, Kobe…….i guess thats only 4, maybe Jaimison idk. But definitely these 4 are in the top 4

    205. er

      I wouldn’t say Melo is a “scam artist,” but I do think it’s valid to call him a phony. He is kind of a phony.

      Yeah hes definitely in the “say what you think people want to hear” camp. I sure wished he would have cursed out Phil lol

    206. JK47

      I wouldn’t call Kobe overrated.

      Kobe didn’t have ass-kicking scoring efficiency, but when he was in his prime he played very hard on both ends of the floor. He had infinitely more impact as a player than Melo, Iverson and the other guys in this conversation. He was also incredibly durable and played heavy minutes year after year after year after year.

      He wasn’t MJ, but Kobe was an impact player.

    207. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      I think Kobe is one of the most overrated insofar as many think he’s a top 5-10 player ever when he was obviously a fantastic player in his prime but probably only top 30 or 40 all time

    208. Ntilakilla

      James Dolan is the victim? The various front office types that kowtowed to Melo’s various demands are the victim? No. They’re the perpetrators.

      Dolan is definitely a victim of his own stupidity like any mark. He’s just very a rich and powerful mark so he can afford to spend money hand over fist on conmen like Isiah Thomas, Carmelo Anthony, Stephon Marbury, Scott Layden, Phil Jackson, etc and not suffer serious consequence beyond the ridicule of the entire sporting world.

      But he is not the only or greatest victim in all of this. We are. The fans who are sold a shit bill of goods every year by conmen like Melo and still have to argue about weather this team is an experienced point guard away from an 8th seed.

    209. JK47

      I think Kobe is one of the most overrated insofar as many think he’s a top 5-10 player ever when he was obviously a fantastic player in his prime but probably only top 30 or 40 all time

      That’s fair. He was certainly not in the MJ/LeBron/Magic class, that is for sure.

    210. Ntilakilla

      Melo is no different. He named a price and found a taker.

      You’re forgetting the other part in the equation, which is him earning that price. Which is him putting his ego aside once he’s earned that price and working toward’s doing everything for the good of the team rather than himself.

    211. er

      That’s fair. He was certainly not in the MJ/LeBron/Magic class, that is for sure.

      Right, thats more of my thinking.

      He may have been the best player in the NBA for like 1.5 (generously)of his 20 years in the league. Hes looked at as a Mt. Rushmore type player, when I think hes definitely in that second class of all time greats.

    212. Ntilakilla

      I wouldn’t say Melo is a “scam artist,” but I do think it’s valid to call him a phony. He is kind of a phony.

      LOL. And why do you think he’s phony? A conman isn’t phony for the hell of it, it serves the purpose of gaining a mark’s confidence. He knows he’s supposed to talk a certain way as the franchise’s face, even if he’s not interesting in playing that way.

    213. er

      But he is not the only or greatest victim in all of this. We are. The fans who are sold a shit bill of goods every year by conmen like Melo and still have to argue about weather this team is an experienced point guard away from an 8th seed.

      #STAYWOKE

    214. Brian Cronin

      On a more serious note. Can anyone clarify what is going on with baker. Espn has us signing him then renouncing him then signing him. Does anyone know what the deal is?

      My guess is that they renounced any Bird rights to Baker to eliminate his cap hold to make room to sign THJ, but then just re-signed him to a minimum contract, which would not require any sort of Bird right (and is not subject to the cap rules. Essentially, giving him the contract that any player could get from any team, regardless of whether they are capped out or not).

    215. Donnie Walsh

      D’Antoni [had] gone on public record as saying that the decision not to sign Lin began before the poison pill

      D’Antoni was fired because he wanted to trade Melo for Deron Williams at the deadline. He was long gone when the “Lin Decision” came to pass.

    216. Donnie Walsh

      Patrick Ewing was one of the most boring Knick of my lifetime. On a team with the emotional shirtsleeves of Oakley, Mase, and Starks, he spoke only in platitudes (and his game charisma was closer to Brad Daugherty compared to The Dreams, The Admirals, and the Shaqs of his time.

      Charlie Ward was a dud of a personality too, both on and off he court.

      But, yeah, those Howard Eisley/Shandon Anderson Knicks were the worst. Who could even get passionate about that, either for or against them??

    217. Ntilakilla

      Im still trying to figure out how a decision begins too.

      Haha. Let’s be real now. That’s not the only thing you need help figuring out. But that’s what I’m here for.

    218. Donnie Walsh

      “Winning a championship is the only thing I care about. Anything else is irrelevant to me as far as when it comes to basketball.”

      -Carmelo Anthony, -2014

    219. Ntilakilla

      D’Antoni was fired because he wanted to trade Melo for Deron Williams at the deadline. He was long gone when the “Lin Decision” came to pass.

      D’Antoni was here when the division over Linsanity happened, which is why he was outed – he chose keeping Lin over Melo and wasn’t going to accept the latter as an option moving forward. His statements about what went on behind the scenes were made in backing up Amar’e explanation, who was here at the time the decision was made to dup Lin, that the issue didn’t begin with a poison pill like the FO stated but with the division in the club over what type of basketball team the Knicks were going to be moving forward.

    220. Ntilakilla

      “Winning a championship is the only thing I care about. Anything else is irrelevant to me as far as when it comes to basketball.”

      -Carmelo Anthony, -2014

      Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

      And yet there are people here who say this guy isn’t a conman. Damn.

    221. er

      “Winning a championship is the only thing I care about. Anything else is irrelevant to me as far as when it comes to basketball.”

      -Carmelo Anthony, -2014

      eh lying by omitting isnt the worst right? lol Brian nailed Melo years ago, he got it right. Just dont listen to anything he ever says.

      I can say, as boring as he is sometimes on the court, it wont be the same without his lightning rod here.

    222. Ntilakilla

      Melo only cares about winning, everything else is irrelevant to him. He only cares about winning…and if a player gets to much shine, the system of offense the coach runs, if he makes the all star, if team president gets on his nerves, what another player is being paid, if he gets paid the most he can be paid, and if someone in the press or organization offends his ego.

      He’s so one-track minded, that guy.

    223. MSA

      Malik Rose and Mardy Collins should be in the discussion for the most boring ever.

      Boy, Mardy Collins could throw an airball like every game…

    224. Donnie Walsh

      the issue didn’t begin with a poison pill like the FO stated but with the division in the club over what type of basketball team the Knicks were going to be moving forward.

      Oh, yeah, that is true. But still, before the poison pill the Front Office was on record saying we: “will match any offer on Lin up to 1 billion dollars.”

      So though the division began in February (clearly), the FO still planned to match. I mean, they went to court to keep Lin. That wasn’t all a charade for the fans.

    225. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      Anybody been watching Jayson Tatum in Summer League? He was one of the 3 players taken in the top 8 that was actually born in 1998 (Fultz and Ntilikina are ’98 babies too). To think that he is only 19, has that much skill, and will likely be a Celtic for at least the next 10 years is straight up depressing. We have to deal with his Celtics and Markelle Fultz’s 76ers. If all of Ntilikina, KP, and Hernangomez develop into good starters, the Atlantic Division could be the most competitive it’s ever been by 2022.

    226. Ntilakilla

      So though the division began in February (clearly), the FO still planned to match. I mean, they went to court to keep Lin. That wasn’t all a charade for the fans.

      If they planned on matching whatever he was getting why was the poison pill such a problem? I never understood this point. This was the same owner who had no problem with Melo holding the trade deal with Denver hostage back when it was apparent that he was fucking with Donnie Walsh’s leverage. To this day, you can’t find anyone in the organization who even mentions the poison pill beyond the FO. They keep fingering out Melo as the guy who didn’t want Lin on the team, not Dolan.

    227. er

      If they planned on matching whatever he was getting why was the poison pill such a problem? I never understood this point. This was the same franchise which had no problem with Melo holding the trade deal with Denver hostage.

      LOL dude. Either you are really daft or are trolling.

      JAMES FUCKING DOLAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    228. Cock Jowles, Not a Knicks Fan Because Fuck This Team

      I think Kobe is one of the most overrated insofar as many think he’s a top 5-10 player ever when he was obviously a fantastic player in his prime but probably only top 30 or 40 all time

      This.

    229. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      The nerve of those assholes in Cleveland. They want to offer us Frye, Shumpert, and Cedi Osman for Carmelo Anthony.

      First of all, that doesn’t even work because Melo’s $28M contract is too big. They’re hoping that we can’t work out a deal with Houston and that Melo gets bought out so they can just add him outright for nothing. I can’t wait until Cleveland gets smoked in the Finals for a second straight year and for Kevin Love to look like an idiot again.

    230. Ntilakilla

      LOL dude. Either you are really daft or are trolling.

      JAMES FUCKING DOLAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      Damn, you are deluded. Both D’Antoni and Amar’e have publicly gone on record saying the issue with not signing Lin preceded the poison pill, but you ignore it and pretend it was just the poison pill. And why? Because “James Dolan!” Its like he’s a dues ex machina explanation when the evidence is contrary to opinion.

    231. Donnie Walsh

      I mean, the answer “James fucking Dolan” is right, but it’s right because of the fact that Dolan always sides with Carmelo fucking Anthony (see D’Antoni, Mike; Lin, Jeremy; Jackson, Phil; etc…)

    232. er

      Damn, you are deluded. Both D’Antoni and Amar’e have publicly gone on record saying the issue with not signing Lin preceded the poison pill, but you ignore it and pretend it was just the poison pill. And why? Because “James Dolan!” Its like he’s a dues ex machina explanation when the evidence is contrary to opinion.

      Im deluded. But you are saying that someone who wasnt even here when the decision was made had better knowledge than the owner. K.

    233. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Also Woj says we’re nearing the opening of contract negotiations for Griff to become GM/head of basketball ops. Says that stumbling block is that Griff wants to bring in his own personnel rather than inherit MSGs. I’d be fine with that so long as Gaines and our scouts stayed.

      https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/883904197602795522

    234. Cock Jowles, Not a Knicks Fan Because Fuck This Team

      What’s worse: having a predictably terrible franchise, or drafting the BPA each and every year but seeing them go down with a lower-body injury before playing a single regular season minute?

    235. Ntilakilla

      Fultz had to be helped off the court with an ankle injury. Jesus, the Sixers can’t catch a break with injuries to their young stars.

    236. Bruno Almeida

      Sportsline projections have the Knicks at 36.3 wins currently, against 34.5 from Vegas….

      sigh

    237. plenty

      @203

      “He’s sold us a shit bill of good from the beginning telling us he was worth all of the resources and money this organization invested into getting and keeping him only to have at least one head coach fired, another teammate booted off, and then the team president forced out because they didn’t buy into what he was selling. Mind you, all of this is while he tells us he’s committed to winning, bringing a championship to NY, recruiting guys here. Its bullshit. And I don’t like being lied to. He’s a conman. You might not blame a conman for selling a scam, but he’s still a scam artist.”

      -Don’t like being lied to? Did melo personally say to you that he was going to single handedly win a championship for the knicks? Don’t justify your opinion with moral rhetoric. Actually, your words describe our old man Phil Jackson more aptly, i think (as far as an Executive).

    238. Ntilakilla

      Im deluded. But you are saying that someone who wasnt even here when the decision was made had better knowledge than the owner. K.

      Listen to this logic. Let’s forget the fact that the original person who mentioned Melo as the reason Lin wasn’t signed was with the Knicks at the time and you conveniently ignored this fact. What’s even more baffling is that you find it unthinkable that the owner who made the decision would lie in public about why he made it – especially after he just fucking lied to us about Phil a few months ago.

      I mean, damn, when your argument is that James Dolan is a trustworthy and straightfoward source you really have to reexamine your logic in more ways that one.

    239. Bruno Almeida

      I didn’t see it, but Sixers twitter put it up as an ankle sprain… should not be too terrible, probably just precaution.

    240. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Also Woj reporting yet another thing:

      Toronto has traded DeMarre Carroll, a future first-round and second-round pick to Brooklyn for Justin Hamilton, league sources tell ESPN.

      We could’ve fucking done this deal if we didn’t blow all our cap holy shit this team has no idea what opportunity cost is

    241. er

      I mean, the answer “James fucking Dolan” is right, but it’s right because of the fact that Dolan always sides with Carmelo fucking Anthony (see D’Antoni, Mike; Lin, Jeremy; Jackson, Phil; etc…)

      Oh ok. So i agree with Dantoni. None of the others were “siding” with Melo. Phil is gone and they are still tryna get rid of Melo. Phil was fired because he started talking crazy about KP. Hes been bashing Melo for over a year, and Dolan went on Michael Kay and said, “Phil is the decision maker”.

      What about Mike Woodson? Doesnt everyone here believe that Melo liked him and did best under him???

      I mean come on, this is some lazy shit here. What is the etc Donnie? where did Dolan side with Melo? Were JR and Shump still here? What about Timmy Jr? Why was he moved? Melo liked him, no?

      was Josh Selby here?

      Here is the story about Lin as reported. But nah, you guys know better than all of the beat writers.

      http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1264577-jeremy-lin-ny-knicks-owner-james-dolan-let-pg-go-due-to-hurt-feelings-not-money

      “According to Isola and his sources, Dolan not only felt “upset” and “livid,” but also “deceived” and “betrayed.” After Houston’s initial offer sheet to Lin would have payed him $9.3 million in the third year of the deal, the Knicks promised to match the offer sheet.

      Houston, whether on their own or at the prodding of Lin and his agent, upped their offer in the third year to $14.9 million.

      And that’s when Dolan became “livid.” He decided to take his dolls and bags of cash and go home.

      Dolan sounds more like a jilted boy at the junior prom than a longtime owner of a marquee NBA franchise.”

      https://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ball-dont-lie/jeremy-lin-knicks-james-dolan-betrayed-deceived-161820611–nba.html

      The decision was both financial and emotional since Garden chairman James Dolan was upset over Lin restructuring his deal with Houston last week to include a third year salary of…

    242. Ntilakilla

      -Don’t like being lied to? Did melo personally say to you that he was going to single handedly win a championship for the knicks?

      Um…

      “Winning a championship is the only thing I care about. Anything else is irrelevant to me as far as when it comes to basketball.”

      -Carmelo Anthony, -2014

      Case closed.

    243. Ntilakilla

      “According to Isola and his sources, Dolan not only felt “upset” and “livid,” but also “deceived” and “betrayed.”

      Now you’re quoting Dan Isola as the source you want to privilege over Amar’e and D’Antoni. LOL.

    244. er

      What’s even more baffling is that you find it unthinkable that the owner who made the decision would lie in public about why he made it – especially after he just fucking lied to us about Phil a few months ago.

      I mean, damn, when your argument is that James Dolan is a trustworthy and straightfoward source you really have to reexamine your logic in more ways that one.

      What?……im going to bed man. I literally hate you. goodnight everyone else

      And its Frank Isola, idiot. Get the name right if you want to bash them

    245. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      If KP doesn’t become a superstar the Nets will be better than us/better situated than us in 5 years, count on it

    246. Ntilakilla

      The Knicks are so fucking dumb if they hire Griffin. It will jeopardize every good thing Phil did, which was plenty more than most gave him credit for. Why even sign Hardaway if you’re going to replace Mills, who was the fucking source of the deal according to most reports? Holy shit. I just can’t even fathom this.

    247. er

      Bash WoJ too….

      “The Knicks — both privately and publicly, according to Yahoo! Sports NBA columnist Adrian Wojnarowski, and repeatedly, as noted by BDL’s Eric Freeman — vowed to match the sheet … which led Rockets general manager Daryl Morey to reconfigure the offer to ratchet up the third-year value, bumping Lin’s ’14-15 salary up to $14.9 million and creating all sorts of heavy luxury tax implications. That, according to Isola’s story, was the line in the sand for Dolan:”

    248. Ntilakilla

      What?……im going to bed man. I literally hate you. goodnight everyone else

      Good, the blog will suddenly become a whole lot smarter.

      And its Frank Isola, idiot. Get the name right if you want to bash them

      LOL. Them?

    249. Ntilakilla

      @298

      You really are too stupid to insult. You present a quote about Woj repeating what Isola said as if it proves anything other than the fact that he reported second hand information from a reputed hack journalist. Either you’re as desperate as I think you are or are very intellectually dishonest. Either way, I agree its best you go to bed. You’re cranky and need some sleep.

    250. plenty

      @291

      not really understanding how he lied to you there, can you explain how him saying that all he cares about is winning a title and everything else is irrelevant (which, come on, isn’t that what any NBA player would say?) automatically escalates to him lying to you because he never brought a title to the knicks.

      you just seem really personally insulted by carmelo and not understanding that it’s not just his fault – it’s a collective failure. you know, just like it’s a collective win in achieving a championship.

    251. Ntilakilla

      not really understanding how he lied to you there

      You think he only cares about winning a championship and everything else is irrelevant to him in basketball? If you don’t – as any half-intelligent human familiar with his history would – then you believe he lied.

      you just seem really personally insulted by carmelo and not understanding that it’s not just his fault – it’s a collective failure. you know, just like it’s a collective win in achieving a championship.

      Who said it was just his fault? Not I. I said he didn’t do his part as the team’s leader, franchise’s face, and highest paid player. Do you deny this point? It’s a fairly centrist position on this blog. The only major difference between myself and many of those who excuse it is that I actually blame him for being a huckster and not just the dope owner who fell for his con.

    252. Brian Cronin

      The Knicks clearly were bringing Lin back until he renegotiated the contract. Melo was almost certainly a douche to Lin, but they were still going to bring him back until Lin renegotiated. They brought in Kidd to mentor him. Kidd signed saying that he was here to mentor him. Woodson said that he would be the starter the next season. They went to court specifically to gain the ability to sign Lin for more than the MLE. They were clearly planning on bringing Lin back until he renegotiated.

      Now, if Melo liked Lin, that probably would have been a factor in Lin still coming back even after the renegotiation, but Melo’s issues with Lin were not the reason they changed their mind on matching Lin.

    253. Ntilakilla

      Kidd signed saying that he was here to mentor him.

      Kidd said he signed with the Knicks, in part, to mentor him. He didn’t say that was the reason he was signed by the Knicks, which is what you seem to be implying.

      http://www.espn.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/8137020/jason-kidd-says-chance-win-mentor-jeremy-lin-factored-decision-join-new-york-knicks

      Woodson said Kidd would be a mentor to Lin.

      Woodson said that he would be the starter the next season.

      But then, again, Woodson also said this after they didn’t sign Lin.

      “I don’t think it was difficult. We just decided to go in a different direction, based on the guys I thought I liked in terms of Raymond [Felton], Jason [Kidd] and Pablo [Prigioni].

      http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/mike-woodson-said-letting-jeremy-lin-go-wasn-t-a-hard-call-1.4254838

      Hmmmm….Woodson sure doesn’t sound like a dude who is very believable. Remember when he said this a few months before?

      “Jeremy Lin has always been a big part of what we’re trying to do as we move forward with our franchise.”

    254. Brian Cronin

      None of what you just wrote disputes the basic truth that the Knicks were going to re-sign Lin until the renegotiation. Does it mean that everyone was happy about it? No. Would it have gone down easier even after the renegotiation if Melo, JR Smith and Woodson had all been on board with it? I think that’s very likely, yes. But they were going to re-sign him until the renegotiation.

    255. JK47

      I think that Melo actually believes his own bullshit. He actually believes that if you just give him the rock and let him iso-Melo until the end of time, that’s like the highest form of basketball there is. So in his mind, playing his stupid ass brand of me-first basketball is how you win ringzz. Anybody who stands in the way of that is standing in the way of pure basketball awesomeness in his egotistical brain. In his mind, that IS team basketball. I think he really believes he is just that awesome, and that’s how you win. By being a ruff rydah.

    256. Zanzibar

      Now you’re quoting Dan Isola as the source

      Are you old enough to remember the great Dan Issel?

    257. Brian Cronin

      I think that Melo actually believes his own bullshit. He actually believes that if you just give him the rock and let him iso-Melo until the end of time, that’s like the highest form of basketball there is. So in his mind, playing his stupid ass brand of me-first basketball is how you win ringzz. Anybody who stands in the way of that is standing in the way of pure basketball awesomeness in his egotistical brain. In his mind, that IS team basketball. I think he really believes he is just that awesome, and that’s how you win. By being a ruff rydah.

      Oh, totally agreed. That’s why he had no problem with refusing to commit to the Knicks during the original Melo-drama. He had to know it was hurting the Knicks’ negotiation position, but he seemed to think that it wouldn’t matter. He and STAT would be enough to make them winners, so why would it matter if the Knicks had to give up a ton for him? It was more important that he get paid. The rest would work itself based on their awesomeness.

    258. Ntilakilla

      None of what you just wrote disputes the basic truth that the Knicks were going to re-sign Lin until the renegotiation.

      I don’t have to dispute it, because it never happened. Its incumbent upon everyone who said it was going to happen to prove it would before the poison pill. And that information is based on a report by Frank Isola. What I am seeing from you are contradictory sources like Mike Woodson, who said one thing one moment and the opposite the next. I am seeing innuendo from Jason Kidd who was nowhere around the organization before or during the whole issue went down. And circumstantial evidence like the fact that the Knicks went to court for the MLE, when it was the Player’s Association which did.

    259. Zanzibar

      Shams Charania@ShamsCharania Sources: Crawford plans to sign with Minnesota on a two-year, $8.9M deal, with second year player option, once he clears waivers

      WTF? Thibs must have graduated from the same GM school as Phil Jackson or maybe Phil’s acting as a consultant? Thibs is blowing a great situation. I think he’s gonna regret the Taj and Crawford signings. Makes me think that Rose – Rubio trade was real. Man are ever gonna catch a break?

      Morey is the anti-Thibs. I have a feeling Lee and/or Lance and/or KOQ are gonna be involved in Houston trade. Something like:

      Houston…. Melo/Lee/Lance/KOQ
      Knicks……. Anderson/Gordon/a players via non-guaranteed contracts/2020 pick/Hartenstein/Zhou

      That would free up enough space for us to sign Rondo.

    260. Ntilakilla

      Sorry, I find it hard to believe Melo is so delusional he believes the bullshit coming from out his mouth. If he were a guy who played hard 36 minutes a game, I could be persuaded to believe he seriously thinks his way = championships. But he didn’t. If he were a guy who didn’t feel so threatened by Linsanity and actually saw it as the first step towards reviving a dismal 2011-2012 season, I could be persuaded to believe he was interested in championships. But he didn’t. If he didn’t war with Phil Jackson, an 11 time champion head coach, I could believe he was more interested in winning than doing things his way. But he didn’t. And anyone who ignores these shadier aspects of his time here to fabricate some rationalization of his egoistic behavior as a form of self-delusion only excuses what are the rational, self-interested calculations of calculated primadonna.

    261. JK47

      So instead you’re saying Melo is some sort of Machiavellian genius? I think you’re overthinking this, bruh.

    262. Bruno Almeida

      dude, Wade sent a tweet talking about THJr:

      “Get paid!!! I’m proud of you for the work you’ve put into your game kid. Real hoopers know. Keep working! #Thatsthebro”

      Real hoopers know.

      bu the way, Dwyane Wade is a three time NBA champion who is best friends with CP3 and Lebron, two of the all time favorite amongst advanced stats people, and “real hoopers know”

      this is how Wade thinks and this is how Melo thinks. He’s a real hooper and that’s his game, he aint changing because some nerd tells him he’s an inefficient shooter.

      when he says he’s only about winning rings, yet still plays his own brand of basketball, I’m 100% sure he thinks he’s doing what needs to be done to win games.

    263. Ntilakilla

      So instead you’re saying Melo is some sort of Machiavellian genius? I think you’re overthinking this, bruh.

      What I am saying is that he’s a self-interested primadonna who says and does whatever he can to get his way in a league brimming with self-interested primadonnas. The fact that he usually gets his way has less to do with his brilliant Machiavellian mind and more to do with our owner’s incompetence.

    264. Ntilakilla

      @315

      So what’s your argument? That because Melo, Wade and Lebron are BFFs they all think alike and approach the game the same way? If so, I don’t buy it. Wade actually put his money where he mouth was when they made that supeteam in Miami. He took less money and deferred to Lebron, even taking a seat as the secondary ball handler on that team. Melo couldn’t even take two weeks of Linsanity while he was on the bench.

    265. Bruno Almeida

      I haven’t said anything about approaching the game, but similar ideas about who’s a “baller” and who is not? pretty sure, yeah.

      There would be no reason the Cavs and the Rockets to be reportedly interested in Melo if CP3 or Lebron weren’t there, so it’s kinda easy to understand that they think he’s a good player, and not a self-interested primadonna like youre saying.

    266. Ntilakilla

      There would be no reason the Cavs and the Rockets to be reportedly interested in Melo if CP3 or Lebron weren’t there, so it’s kinda easy to understand that they think he’s a good player, and not a self-interested primadonna like youre saying.

      I am not even sure they think he’s a good player. The only thing I know is they think he’s better than Ryan Anderson at the 4, which isn’t saying much. If they legitimately thought he was good, we wouldn’t need a third team to come into the trade, they’d be willing to give major pieces to get him.

    267. KnickfaninNJ

      Also Woj says we’re nearing the opening of contract negotiations for Griff to become GM/head of basketball ops. Says that stumbling block is that Griff wants to bring in his own personnel rather than inherit MSGs.

      I seems to me that Griffin has traded away more first round picks than any other GM in the league. That’s just what we don’t need.

    268. Bruno Almeida

      and who would be those major pieces?

      the Cavs and the Clippers (now Rockets) had / have very little in terms of picks and only two players between all teams that would actually be somewhat desirable for the Knicks, which are Griffin and Love. We have no idea how the negotiations went and if Love / Griffin were ever in the talks, what the Knicks demands were / are, how much the FOs of those teams were involved etc.

      the fact is that it’s obvious that they hold Melo to a much higher standard than you. Whether they are right about it is a completely different discussion.

      I hate Melo because he’s an overrated player that the Knicks tried to build around and failed, not because of some moral bullshit that we have no means of ever understanding properly.

    269. Ntilakilla

      and who would be those major pieces?

      From Houston? At least Ariza and Gordon. That’s on par with what Oklahoma gave up to get George – who I can imagine Melo thinks he’s as good as.

    270. Brian Cronin

      I seems to me that Griffin has traded away more first round picks than any other GM in the league. That’s just what we don’t need.

      While I agree that it is a bit worrisome, he was also in a totally different situation in Cleveland. Trading first rounders is fine when you’re winning. Good teams trade first rounders all the time. So while it is worrisome that this is the only thing we know about him, since this was his only GM gig, I wouldn’t hold it too much against him. Jerry West is a big admirer of Griffin. He seems to be as good as any other option I’ve seen so far.

    271. JK47

      I think it’s going to be difficult to move Melo, even more so now after the Hardaway signing. Having a little bit of cap space gave the Knicks some flexibility with the Melo trade, but now they can’t take back more salary than they send out. Steve Mills doesn’t have any plan here. He seems to be a total imbecile.

      The Knicks need to move Melo and Lee for this offseason to have made any sense whatsoever. I bet they move neither, and they open the season with this bizarre unbalanced roster.

    272. Grocer

      seems to me that Griffin has traded away more first round picks than any other GM in the league. That’s just what we don’t need.

      That’s like saying Hinkie’s a bad GM cause the Sixers sucked.

    273. Bruno Almeida

      @322

      for all we know, that offer might be on the table right now.

      but the fact is, if you are a GM of one of those teams and you know NYK is desperate to get rid of him, why would you ever offer those guys if you can wait and get him for much cheaper? Phil Jackson started this by throwing Melo’s remaining value under a bus, and now smarter teams are pouncing at the opportunity (example, the buyout talks).

      my biggest fear is that the Knicks will keep playing this as if they are in a position of power, and will end up keeping Melo and Lee when it makes zero sense to do so.

    274. Grocer

      Lee will maybe be easier to move at the deadline, no one seems interested now. I still don’t think we move Melo without taking back a longer untradeable contract.

    275. Ntilakilla

      but the fact is, if you are a GM of one of those teams and you know NYK is desperate to get rid of him, why would you ever offer those guys if you can wait and get him for much cheaper? Phil Jackson started this by throwing Melo’s remaining value under a bus, and now smarter teams are pouncing at the opportunity (example, the buyout talks).

      We fired Phil because he wanted to buy Melo out. So the idea that we’re desperate to rid of him at any cost has been proven false. Actually, in order for Houston to ink Melo into a deal at a price he would accept Houston would have to trade assets for him, hence the need for a trade. They can wait but they’re the ones in a hurry to compete in the West, not us.

    276. KnickfaninNJ

      Grocer, I assume you are not saying Griffin is good because the Cavaliers are good? I realize he was in a situation where his owner wanted him to win now, but I don’t think he did very well in trades. Two firsts for Mozgov, for example. Some of his role player acquisitions have been busts and we have almost no experience with his ability to draft, since he kept trading picks. Now he wants to bring Cleveland’s staff with him? Why can’t we just find some good assistant GM, like the Nets did.

    277. JK47

      How about the world stops putting a microphone in front of LaVar Ball’s face? Fuckin’ guy is the Murray Wilson of sports.

    278. Grocer

      Grocer, I assume you are not saying Griffin is good because the Cavaliers are good?

      No. But the right move is always going to be situational. Not trading firsts can’t be a hard and fast rule, cause if things work right you’ll be in a legit position where you’re a piece or two away from being in the finals. And a late first isn’t really that valuable vs. current production in that situation. Griffin made some questionable choices, sure. But he also put together an effective team on pretty short notice to take advantage of Lebron. Bad GMs can’t do that.

    279. #fireRambis

      Wizards matched Nets offer, like last year when Heat matched Nets offer. I think Nets playing poker with other teams to ruin their cap lol.. Atlanta didn’t call Knicks bluff… yeah you can have Timmy

      Nets get Carroll for 2 years/$30M and a future first round pick
      Nets will have Russell and Lin on front court vs Knicks’ Frank and Timmy

      I want Knicks to get Rondo or Brooks for one year deal…

    280. The Infamous Cdiggy

      I don’t know if David Griffin would have been my first choice, but he was in a unique situation with LeBron deciding to come back to the Cavs and them becoming title contenders for the past 3 years. If you knew that your team has the league’s best player and a 3-5 year window of legit title contention (and btw they did win it all in ’15-’16), I’d imagine your “opportunity cost” would be NOW and not 5 years down the line.

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