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Wednesday, March 20, 2019

Knicks Morning News (2017.05.31)

  • [SNY Knicks] Duke’s Jefferson among several players to work out with Knicks
    (Tuesday, May 30, 2017 5:46:05 PM)

    Duke’s Amile Jefferson was among six players to work out with the New York Knicks on Tuesday.

  • [SNY Knicks] North Carolina’s Justin Jackson could be Knicks’ new scoring threat
    (Tuesday, May 30, 2017 1:50:17 PM)

    The Knicks could target North Carolina scoring threat, Justin Jackson, with their pick in this year’s NBA Draft.

  • [SNY Knicks] Carmelo spends 33rd birthday in the gym
    (Tuesday, May 30, 2017 10:43:20 AM)

    Knicks star Carmelo Anthony picked basketball over balloons yesterday as he decided to spend his 33rd birthday working on his craft.

  • [NYDN] ESPN analyst Mark Jackson: Phil Jackson is ‘failure’ with Knicks
    (Tuesday, May 30, 2017 9:44:06 AM)

    ESPN analyst Mark Jackson minced no words in his evaluation of the job Phil Jackson’s done running the Knicks, calling him a “failure.”

  • [NYPost] ‘Failure’ Phil Jackson outsmarted by Carmelo: Mark Jackson
    (Tuesday, May 30, 2017 10:02:40 AM)

    Mark Jackson, sticking up for Carmelo Anthony, called Phil Jackson a “failure’’ as Knicks president. The former Knicks point guard-turned-television analyst said Tuesday, during ABC’s conference call promoting the NBA Finals, the Zen Master is “definitively’’ the best coach of all time with his 11 rings, but has done a “poor job’’ handling the Anthony…

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks work out Luke Petrasek, Columbia center and East Northport native
    (Tuesday, May 30, 2017 7:27:54 PM)

    Luke Petrasek is one step closer to playing basketball professionally.

  • [NY Newsday] Mark Jackson: Phil Jackson’s tenure with Knicks ‘a failure so far’
    (Tuesday, May 30, 2017 2:22:00 PM)

    Mark Jackson, a former Knicks guard and native New Yorker, did not mince words Tuesday regarding the state of things back home, calling Phil Jackson’s term as the Knicks’ president “a failure so far.”

  • [NYTimes] An N.B.A. Throwback Returns: Ads on Jerseys
    (Wednesday, May 31, 2017 1:30:56 AM)

    Players on company teams once sported uniforms emblazoned with logos, like that of Goodyear. When N.B.A. teams begin wearing ads from sponsors next season, Goodyear will again be on a basketball uniform.

  • [NYTimes] The Warriors, Once the N.B.A.’s Darlings, Flirt With the Villains’ Role
    (Wednesday, May 31, 2017 9:00:24 AM)

    Things turned when Golden State signed Kevin Durant because fans want “Hulk Hogan versus Andre the Giant, not for them to tag-team together.”

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    123 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.05.31)

    1. Frank

      I’m guessing teams love the top 10 picks in this draft and are far less excited about 11-30. Detroit’s rumored to want to trade out of the draft, and now RealGM says that the Blazers want to package one of their 1sts to dump salary.

      This feels like an Evan Turner moment.

    2. Frank

      I would trade KOQ for Harkless + #20 (or probably even #26) in a second.

      I would trade KOQ for Crabbe, or even *gulp* Evan Turner + #14.

    3. english_knick

      This is where Phil needs to earn his money. We’re not getting any good FAs this year. So our cap space and the small number of valuable vets we have – Lee, KOQ, Kuz to some degree – need to be in play for the teams touting picks. Depending on the picks available I will absolutely take Crabbe or Turner – I’d even take one of them and harkless if the right picks were in play. Harkless isn’t the worst salary ever…

    4. Frank

      @4 – Phil probably still thinks that Phil Jackson is a draw to free agents, and that throwing his rings down will convince free agents to come. I hope I’m wrong but I’m probably not.

    5. Frank

      @6 – which part isn’t true? in other words, do you think Phil is actually a draw to FAs?

    6. latke

      Didn’t y’all read? We want Dante Cunningham and PJ Tucker. Phil may have accepted he can’t woo top talent but that doesn’t mean he’s gonna rebuild… At least not in the way y’all’s traditional minds comprehend rebuilding.

    7. fmikieo

      The silly caricature part.

      It honestly amuses me to see all the different ways folks lampoon Phil. They’ve conditioned themselves to expect the worst out of the guy.

      It’s called bias.

    8. lavor postell

      @Frank

      I don’t think he’s ever believed he was in a position to lure top free agents. Nothing he’s done indicates that. Simply valuing cap space like he has only demonstrates he values flexibility. If he was chasing top free agents he wouldn’t have called off a meeting with LMA a couple of years ago.

      @latke

      Unless you think Dante Cunningham and P.J. Tucker would be exorbitant contracts, block the progress of any young players we’d draft or significantly improve our chances of winning games then I have no idea how they prevent a traditional rebuild. If anything signings like that would indicate Phil’s focused on trying to establish a culture with some try hard vets shepherding the young kids along the way. His publicly stated desire to trade Melo also would indicate a desire to rebuild around youth.

    9. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      Phil can do both. He can add 2 or 3 young players from the draft and also acquire 1 or 2 veterans to make us more competitive now while promoting his type of system basketball and work ethic to the youngins. There’s nothing wrong with that.

    10. latke

      @9 who conditioned me? I’m just going off Jackson’s past choices. He took over a team desperate for a real rebuild and has squandered 3 years avoiding it. Why would the fact that he’s become disillusioned with melo change things?

    11. latke

      @reub. Nope, nothing wrong with that. He’s already got like 3x more vets and 50x more money invested in vets though than one would think necessary for mentoring.

    12. Donnie Walsh

      I would trade Lee + KOQ for Turner, 15 and 20

      When a team calls up and says they want to dump salary and offers a first round pick, and you have salary space, but counter with dumping just as much salary on them while asking for two of their first round picks, people are going to think you’re an asshole and hang up the phone.

    13. lavor postell

      When a team calls up and says they want to dump salary and offers a first round pick, and you have salary space, but counter with dumping just as much salary on them while asking for two of their first round picks, people are going to think you’re an asshole and hang up the phone.

      There’s literally no other way to make the deal before or during the draft. Lee’s also a way easier contract to trade than Turner’s would be and could easily net them an asset whereas Turner’s is costing them one.

      Also they wouldn’t be able to make the deal after the draft until August or something like that. This is why the Love/Wiggins deal had to be delayed so long even though everybody knew it was happening, but that situation was very different. The Knicks would want to make this deal having control over who was being picked at 15 and 20 and would also likely want to have those players available for them to play during Summer League.

    14. Frank

      The silly caricature part.

      It honestly amuses me to see all the different ways folks lampoon Phil. They’ve conditioned themselves to expect the worst out of the guy.

      It’s called bias.

      lol – he very much thought he was going to be a draw to FAs when he got here. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

      And why shouldn’t we expect the worst again? 3 years, 166 losses, and we have TWO players that might be useful on this team in in 3-4 years. He’s alienated Carmelo Anthony, destroyed a relationship with the best thing to happen to this franchise in the last 15 years (KP), and insists on playing a system that no one wants to play. This isn’t bias. This is real life. Find me a single GM in the league not named Vlade that has done a worse job than Phil (Hennigan doesn’t count since he’s already been fired).

    15. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      I think that we could get Turner and a #1 from them for a bag of rocks. It’s tempting.

    16. lavor postell

      KP like the Triangle though. His issues seem to be the lack of commitment to it from the start of the season and the resulting clusterfuck.

    17. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Evan Turner will be a Knick come draft night. Don’t fight it, just think of KP nailing Dirk fadeaways in the post and Willy learning how to shoot 3s.

    18. Accidentank 2017

      Phil Jackson needs to trade Kyle O’Quinn/Courtney Lee to Detroit for the #12 pick and cap filler. Could you imagine if Zach Collins was still on the board at #12?

    19. Donnie Walsh

      There’s literally no other way to make the deal before or during the draft

      Granted, I don’t follow this stuff as closely as I used to, but in the past there were scenarios where teams would draft for other teams when a deal was reached, but couldn’t be consumayes until after the moratorium (we did that for Denver when we technically drafted Nene).

      But I think it is moot, because Portland doesn’t need to deal with the Knicks but can ask any team to rent their cap space out to them, which is what they are looking for (not looking for NY’s extraneous players). Like NJ could offer to take Turner + pick(s) for the non-guaranteed $3,000,000 contract of KJ McDaniels without a complicated handshake deal going into July, and that sounds like a better deal for them (and one the Nets should probably make too).

    20. DRed

      Simply valuing cap space like he has only demonstrates he values flexibility

      Gives Melo 5 year near max + no trade clause
      Gives Noah 72 million for 4 years
      Gives Courtney Lee 50 million for 4 years
      Gives Lance Thomas 27 million for 4 years

      That’s 3/4 of our cap space next year taken by 4 guys, only one of whom had a positive BPM last season, and that guy managed to play only 46 games before getting hurt, failing a drug test, and getting hurt again while recovering from injury. That’s not valuing flexibility-that’s badly mismanaging the roster and the salary cap.

    21. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      This is a trade we could do w Detroit (Baynes is opting out this year I’m not sure what that means for the possibility of the trade):
      http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y9rw3dte

      We could possibly sneak Reggie Bullock in there, who was low key good this year and last year on about 500 mins (per year) and hasn’t really gotten a fair shot in Detroit

    22. DRed

      I’d take Turner for two first round picks, but we’d absolutely have to trade Courtney Lee somewhere.

    23. swiftandabundant

      Frank you have no idea what Phil’s relationship with KP is. None of us do. KP skipped a meeting and is not happy with how the season turned out. That doesn’t mean he hates Phil or that Phil has “destroyed” the relationship with him.

      I’ll say this again. Right now is the worst time to be a Knicks fan bc everyone can speculate wildly about how the ship is sinking and there’s nothing Phil or the Knicks can do but take the beating by the fans and the press. There are no games to be played or trades to be made. I will exercise patience until the summer because if you look at what COULD happen in the next few months, its potentially very promising. We know at the very least that we’ll draft at #8 and have two second rounders to add to the mix. That alone will make our future look a lot different on draft night. We’ll be talking about KP, Willie and another pick as our youth core (along with the second rounders, Baker, etc).

      We also know that there’s gonna be about 20 million in cap space coming up with Rose being (most likely, god willing) gone. That’s enough to get one-two solid players. Hopefully Phil has learned from the Noah mistake and won’t sign someone over the age of 30.

      We also know he wants to trade Melo. Will he? Who knows. But the fact that he’s openly wanting to do it means that he is done building around Melo. Isn’t this what everyone here has wanted?

      I get it. Our record sucks. Phil should have not resigned Melo with a NTC, Noah was a bad signing. But damn. How many teams have one or two overpaid players on them? I would argue most. I guess I’m a phil apologist but I’m willing to give him another shot, mainly because he’s here for 2 more years. But right now there’s nothing he can do. But I do think the caricatures of him are over the top.

    24. lavor postell

      That’s 3/4 of our cap space next year taken by 4 guys, only one of whom had a positive BPM last season, and that guy managed to play only 46 games before getting hurt, failing a drug test, and getting hurt again while recovering from injury. That’s not valuing flexibility-that’s badly mismanaging the roster and the salary cap.

      This shows he’s done ineffective things with the cap space he’s prioritized creating, but the majority of trades he’s made have been about creating cap flexibility. Either way the initial arguument was that Phil’s been throwing rings on the table and trying to lure major FA’s when that really hasn’t been his style unless we’re counting the Noah and Lee signings in that vein.

    25. swiftandabundant

      @ 26 – don’t bother. Phil is a failure and a senile old man who hates 3 pointers and smokes weed all day and asks free agents to meditate with him over his rings don’t you know?

    26. stratomatic

      This forum is kind of like some of the left wing political forums I’ve seen. If you put the word Trump everywhere you see a reference to Phil Jackson, it’s kind of similar. There’s absolutely nothing he could say or do that wouldn’t be spun in the worst possible light. lmao

      I’ll remind everyone again, Phil is not the asshole that traded away 2 out of 3 of our 1st round picks during the 3 years he’s been here so far (one to get Bargnani). But he is the guy that drafted KP and landed WH with a 2nd round pick he got from someone else. Imagine if he had those 2 picks!

      We have 2 good young pieces, The 8th pick, 2 2nd round picks, a lot of cap space, and arguably only 1 bad contract on the books (Noah). That is hardly as bad as the catastrophes we’ve been enduring for a very long time. We are in decent shape going forward despite the Noah stumble. It takes a very long time to rebuild from close to zero. The real issue is that he hasn’t made any home run deals other than for Willy. All he has been doing is moving pieces around and keeping cap flexibility.

    27. swiftandabundant

      Stratomatic – thank you. I don’t mind criticizing what Phil has done. But when it turns into caricature or ignores any of the positives that have happened since he’s been here, it turns silly. Look, this last season he went all in with the Rose, Noah and Lee moves to give Melo one more shot at a competitive team. I get that people think that was dumb and it did not turn out well, but besides Noah the long term damage from those moves is pretty minimal. Lee is a fine contract and a player a lot of teams might want. Rose is gone and we have his cap space this summer. Noah is going to hurt us for the next few years, no doubt, but at least he’s a defensive minded player and a competitor. There are worse albatrosses to have on your team. And Melo is more open to leaving now than ever. I guess people just can’t forgive Phil for the NTC and I guess I see that point but I also will never know if that was something he had to do in order to take the job. As his first move letting the best player on the team leave after arguably his best 2 seasons as a player….that would have taken A LOT of balls.

      The Knicks made A LOT of bad moves before Phil that put phil in a very tough spot when he took over the team. I think its fair to ask that he gets the rest of his contract to do his job considering he just now will be in a position to actually add meaningful young talent to the team the next few years.

      I will also be the first to admit that this off season will be very indicative and telling. If he does another Rose/NOah type off season I will most likely throw in the hat and concede he’s been a failure. But I just don’t see that happening. I think he’s looking to really rebuild now.

    28. Frank

      Hi – so remember I am/was on Team Optimist, not Team Pessimist/Realist. But there literally is no way you can give Phil Jackson any better than a C- or D in terms of his tenure here. It doesn’t matter what the rationale was for the trades and whether going for cap flexibility (rather than picks or young players or whatever) was a good idea or not. Fact is, he has made some really really bad moves. He’s made a couple good moves, basically drafting KP and Hernangomez. But in total he has presided over the worst period in Knicks franchise history, and the talent base on this team is worse than when he got here – the 2013-14 team finished the season 16-5 and nearly made the playoffs despite a disastrous beginning-middle of the season. He hasn’t traded draft picks, but that’s not exactly a high bar to get over.

    29. DRed

      Phil has largely done two things as GM-he’s kept our picks (he traded some 2s, but also acquired some 2s) and created cap space that he has then squandered on completely ineffective veterans (Melo, Rose, Noah, Lee, Thomas, Afflalo, etc).

    30. Frank

      If you look at good management, it’s come down to the front office taking an HONEST look at the team and deciding when is the time to tear it down and when is the time to go for it. Theo Epstein looked at the Cubs, knew they were not good enough to do anything interesting, and so broke it down, then built it up again the RIGHT WAY. Then in 2015-16 when he knew they had a shot, THEN he went and cashed in his assets to get Chapman to go for it. Phil honestly thought the 17 win team from 2014-15 had a chance to make the playoffs. He honestly thought this team from 16-17 had a chance to make the playoffs. It’s that lack of vision and lack of understanding of what he has in hand that has made him make moves that look ridiculous in hindsight (yes I know many here knew it in foresight).

      He’s just a bad GM / POBO. Is he the worst EVER? No. But he’s probably one of the 5 worst GMs in the entire league, if not one of the 3 worst.

    31. djphan

      when you’re trying to win and end up being as bad as we are then absolutely all the criticism is warranted.. he’s handpicked every person on this roster fer chrissakes…. that doesn’t mean everything he’s done is bad… but you cannot judge someone for avoiding the biggest mistake and trading away first rd’ers…. you judge them by the decisions they have made… and save for maybe two or three of those out of a couple dozen… he has made really really bad decisions….

      making good on the 2015 draft is literally the only brightspot in his tenure… which to his credit was the most important one… but every other decision was bad and not only bad.. but obviously bad….

      if he makes good on this draft then i’m more than happy to change my opinion…. but keep in mind isaiah also had great drafts behind him but that doesn’t salvage his rep one iota…

    32. d-mar

      I know we’re not supposed to talk politics on this site, but the news that we’re withdrawing from the Paris climate accord has me severely depressed. 100 years from now our children’s children are going to look back and wonder wtf we were thinking as half the country is underwater.

      And the Knicks will still be chasing their first title since 1973 (-:

    33. lavor postell

      But in total he has presided over the worst period in Knicks franchise history, and the talent base on this team is worse than when he got here – the 2013-14 team finished the season 16-5 and nearly made the playoffs despite a disastrous beginning-middle of the season. He hasn’t traded draft picks, but that’s not exactly a high bar to get over.

      How was the talent base worse?. What fucking talent base did we have on that team to build around long-term? An aging Melo who he kept? Tyson Chandler? JR? Shumpert? THJ?

      I’ll take the Knicks current situation over what he inherited without question. 2 quality young players, some cap flex in spite of his mistakes and all of our draft picks moving forward and a couple of 2nd round picks he’s acquired. There’s zero doubt in my mind if we fired Phil right now – something I’ve said they should have done at the end of last season – the franchise would be in a much better position than the one he inherited.

    34. stratomatic

      @frank

      All due respect. You are one the sharpest posters here and one of my favorites, but imo there’s no way you are being even close to balanced on Phil. You make it sound like he was dealt a great hand and screwed it up. He was dealt a terrible hand. We had no picks and no one wanted dregs like JR Smith and Felton at that time (JR was injured on and off and off the rails and Felton was recently busted). Amare was done. Chandler was hurt and wanted out. We had to sweeten deals a little to take some of that crap off our hands. To move them he had to go backwards a little. Most of the other GMs are not idiots. Most free agents aren’t going to give a team a discount unless they are in a position to win a title. Most elite players aren’t going to come to a team unless they are in a position to win a title either.

      It’s easy to ask why he gave Melo a NTC (which we all agree was a bad move), but perhaps the answer is that he felt we needed a little extra cap space going forward and that was the only way he could get Melo to agree to give us a discount on a max deal?

      We’ve never seen what options he had at that time in terms of a sign and trade. There were rumors (in other words fake news). It’s also quite possible that despite his comments about Melo not moving the ball he still values him higher than we do and didn’t think there was a fair deal on the table.

      The major problem has been the lack of two 1st round picks and that he hasn’t scored a home run on any deals. Those are tough to come by. It hasn’t been that he’s been doing terrible deals.

    35. Donnie Walsh

      There were rumors (in other words fake news)

      Rumors aren’t fake news. They could be real, they could be fake. Dismissing everything you read as fake is as stupid as accepting everything you read as fact.

      I’ve read a lot about the Knicks over the past 30 years. And I can tell you what all of the opinion, fact, and rumors I’ve contemplated not over the years has led me to conclude: Phil Jackson has been terrible, like Isiah before him, and Layden before him, and Tapscott before him. Is it all Phil’s fault? No. But he took Dolan’s money, and owns the shitty track record he has amassed in the growing sample-size of his piss-poor tenure.

    36. JK47

      Phil Jackson wasted three years trying to build a win-now team around the decline phase of Carmelo Anthony. His latest innovation was a Carmelo Anthony-Joakim Noah-Derrick Rose core.

      Maybe he’ll do better now! It’s certainly possible. But he wasted those three years. And that’s factorial.

    37. Totes McGoats

      My opinion on Phil’s tenure so far is this:
      I don’t like it very much. He been below average but not awful. The worst thing he has done wasn’t the NTC, Noah deal, or the Rose trade. It was forcing things on his coaches who knew the players better than he does. Fish wasn’t allowed to be his own coach, but that was expected considering his history with Phil. Then he completely undermines Hornacek who has coaching experience and no prior relationship with Phil. I can live with the risk on Noah because theoretically he was still young enough to get healthy and be at least close to the prime Noah. I still hate the contract though, Phil jumped the gun and didn’t realize he was negotiating against himself. I like the Lee, Thomas, Kuz, Baker, and Randle signings. I love the drafting. KP, Willy, and Grant were all good picks. So considering what he had to work with when he arrived, he hasn’t been horrible.

      My theory is he’s trying to do a “sneaky” rebuild because he has the idea stuck in his head that you can’t do a real rebuild in NY. And that’s probably true because we Knicks fans are demanding. I can’t imagine the pressure of living there and working for the Knicks. Phil likes to mindfuck people. So he makes moves that are seen as win now moves to pacify the fan base as much as possible with the actual intent to churn the roster and add developmental players to push the franchise forward. He won’t come out and say “we’re rebuilding” and then get egged for it. That’s his ego taking charge. He should have announced a rebuild long ago and dealt with the blow-back. Just look at the moves behind the vets and so-called big names. Randle, Baker, NDour, Plumlee, KOQ, Kuz, Holiday, and then the drafting of KP & Willy. That’s 9 developmental players out of 15 roster spots. Moving forward we have our picks and some cap space. Screams “rebuilding” to me. It would have been great for Phil to have Ainge’s cards..but he hasn’t been horrible.

    38. Cock Jowles, A Proven Scorer Who Is Worth All of His Max Contract

      The major problem has been the lack of two 1st round picks and that he hasn’t scored a home run on any deals. Those are tough to come by. It hasn’t been that he’s been doing terrible deals.

      Carmelo Anthony is no longer good at basketball and he is 33 years old. He is still paid in the top-10 of all players and he cannot be traded without his consent. Re-signing him was a Phil Jackson transaction. How is that not terrible?

      The Noah deal is known around the league as the worst contract in the NBA. He will be 35 when the contract ends. 100% Phil’s decision. How is that not terrible?

      Lee would have been a fine signing for, say, the Cavs: a team that needs every bench player to be merely average, since they already have their stars. For the Knicks? A guy in his early thirties on a too-long contract. I wouldn’t call it terrible, but it’s not good.

      Lance Thomas is not good. He is under contract for 2 more guaranteed years.

      The draft picks have ranged from “ok w/e” (Ron Baker) to “high value” (WHG). That is all I can compliment about the Jackson tenure. Those deals above? Cripping.

    39. Frank

      @stratomatic – maybe I’m feeling a little saltier than usual today, but a few things:

      GM/POBO’s should be good at:
      – talent evaluation
      – asset management
      – contracts / long-term franchise fiscal management
      – basketball vision / franchise value (ie. what coach are you going to hire, how do you improve the franchise so that it becomes a destination).

      Talent evaluation – mixed bag. KP/Willy good. Derrick Williams, Afflalo, Jason Smith, Derrick Rose, Joakim Noah, etc bad. He’s had one first round pick (KP) – good work. He’s had the equivalent of 4 second round picks (Thanasis, Cleanthony Early, Louis Labeyrie, Willy) and has hit on 1 of them.

      Asset management – he pretty much deep-sixed Shumpert and JR’s trade value (remember, these are 2 rotation players on the defending champs – and he traded them BOTH for a 2nd round pick and cap space he used on guys that are not helping us now). He gave Melo a NTC and a trade kicker, pretty much destroying his trade value. He traded Tyson Chandler basically for Jose Calderon.

      Contracts – Melo NTC. Joakim Noah. ‘Nuff said. (I do have to give credit for the Willy contract).

      Long-term basketball vision – 3 coaches in 2 years. Still playing this ridiculous Triangle system that everyone hates. Concentration on this terrible offense when it’s in fact the DEFENSE that has sucked worse than anything. Repeatedly disparages 3 point shooting when it’s obvious to 99.9% of the world that the 3 pointer is so overpowered that there probably should be rule changes to limit it.

      Franchise value — and by this I am not talking $$. Think about how change in management has helped the Clippers. Or Cuban’s reign in Dallas. Bob Myers in GS. Pat Riley in Miami. Our franchise is a laughingstock.

      We’ve moved the goalposts so far that we can’t even see what’s actually happened. This is like Trump getting through a speech without being overtly racist or dumb and the press fawning over him.

    40. King Induction

      Is there an expiration point to Melo’s trade kicker? Maybe this offseason? Or the February trade deadline? Because if he loses his 15% at some point we have leverage.

    41. Frank

      continued — sorry I guess I am actually very salty today —

      That Willy contract — yes it’s nice. But it’s literally what Sam Hinkie signed EVERY 2nd round pick to. That’s what teams do. This is not a great move! This is a NORMAL move.

      Drafting a really good player with the 4th pick in what was a really good draft — golf claps. Nice job.

      Signing Courtney Lee to a market-level contract — this is NORMAL, not good or great.

      Even Ron Baker (who wasn’t a draft pick) is a total head scratcher. You’ve already identified him as a guy you really like? Great! but why in the world wouldn’t you buy a pick so you have draft rights to him? Why would you take a chance that he would decide to sign elsewhere?

      When the best things you’ve done (amongst a sea of very bad things) are just normal everyday moves that normal franchises/GMs do every day every year, then for me it’s golf claps. It’s like that Chris Rock bit where a guy tells him “Hey man I take care of my kids!!” and Chris Rock says back “You’re supposed to take care of your kids. what you want, a cookie?!”

    42. Donnie Walsh

      Franchise value — and by this I am not talking $$. Think about how change in management has helped the Clippers. Or Cuban’s reign in Dallas. Bob Myers in GS. Pat Riley in Miami. Our franchise is a laughingstock.

      When he promised “Culture Change” in 2014, he meant he wanted to turn the franchise from a mere loser into a laughingstock.

      Put that one in the win column.

    43. JK47

      This year our defense is going to be better. I heard that Rambis has been practicing yelling louder.

    44. swiftandabundant

      The Shump and JR are rotation players on a championship team argument is hilarious.

      So Courtney Lee is average or below average but Shump and JR are more valuable bc they play with LeBron James? I mean, do we not believe that players influence each other at all?

      JR was great as a Knick when he had Kidd and company keeping him in line and he was playing for a contract. Once he got that contract and those vets left, lo and behold he started being not good. Then he gets traded to play with the greatest player in the NBA in the last 15 years and lo and behold he’s good again. Gee, I wonder if Courtney Lee would hit wide open 3’s if he was getting passes from LeBron when Lebron is double teamed.

    45. swiftandabundant

      JR’s value was at an all-time low when Phil traded him. Shump was on the last year of his rookie contract when Phil attached him to JR to get them out of town. People were happy they were gone but lets all act like we traded away Scottie Pippen and Derek Harper bc they now play with LeBron and have rings.

    46. Donnie Walsh

      The Shump and JR are rotation players on a championship team argument is hilarious.

      I think you are missing the forest here.

      Phil Jackson didn’t package Shumpert with JR Smith because of production. He wanted to change culture, saying after the trade: “getting players who understand that while playing basketball is fun, this is also a business. So we need guys who will ice after practice, watch what they eat, avoid having those three extra beers when they party, and get the rest they need. I think we succeeded in getting this particular cultural change.”

      He then went and traded those professionals that he brought in for a player with a lingering rape case against him and who ran away from the team because he couldn’t handle his job.

      So, yeah, Phil hasn’t shat the bed with every single move he’s made. But, hey, Isiah drafted David Lee with the last pick of the first round, and Scott Layden had the good sense to bring in Dikembe Mutumbo to shore up the defense, so the bar has to be a little bit higher than not doing everything wrong. Especially when your 13 rings is supposed to give you autonomy from JL Dolan’s franchise crippling meddling.

    47. Totes McGoats

      Like I said in an earlier thread maybe a week or so ago..
      This is the year where the PJ Conglomerate will show their worth. We have the 8th pick, 2 2nd rounders and some cap space. Let’s see what Phil does with the most he’s had to work with before we sentence him to effigy.

    48. DRed

      He was dealt a terrible hand. We had no picks and no one wanted dregs like JR Smith and Felton at that time (JR was injured on and off and off the rails and Felton was recently busted). Amare was done. Chandler was hurt and wanted out. We had to sweeten deals a little to take some of that crap off our hands. To move them he had to go backwards a little. Most of the other GMs are not idiots. Most free agents aren’t going to give a team a discount unless they are in a position to win a title. Most elite players aren’t going to come to a team unless they are in a position to win a title either.

      It’s easy to ask why he gave Melo a NTC (which we all agree was a bad move), but perhaps the answer is that he felt we needed a little extra cap space going forward and that was the only way he could get Melo to agree to give us a discount on a max deal?

      We’ve never seen what options he had at that time in terms of a sign and trade.

      You’re missing that signing Carmelo to a 5 year near max contract even without a no trade clause was obviously a bad move at the time it was signed. You’re right that the Knicks were an asset stripped mess at the time, and Phil had very little to work with. But what Phil should have done was to attempt to sign and trade Melo, and if that failed (as it probably would have) then let him walk in free agency. Phil’s failed so far as a GM because he keeps incorrectly judging how far away this team is from being good. There’s been no point in having a huge amount of salary tied up in a -at best-moderately productive player like Carmelo. We haven’t won more than 32 games in a season since Phil took over and he keeps signing fairly useless vets like we’re a title contender.

    49. Accidentank 2017

      Being a Knicks fan is tough. On one hand, I see how bad Phil Jackson has been over the past three years. Every team he’s built has underachieved and the only players he’s added that have been real difference makers have been front court assets. The current important Knicks are old and bad or KP and Willy. He has a chance to add 2 good players in this draft, and if he has a repeat of what he did in 2015, then the Knicks will be one of the best young teams in the NBA this season.

      The thing that’s so worrisome is that identifying talent in the draft or Europe is the hardest thing to be good at as a GM. The easier things, like trades and asset valuation? Phil sucks

    50. Z-man

      Yeah, too bad Phil couldn’t have made great moves like Donnie Walsh, like trading #1 picks away to get cap space, then using that cap space to sign a guy with no cartilage in his knees to a max contract and trading away 1,000 picks and every rootable player on the roster for the great Carmelo Anthony.

    51. 2FOR18

      Doing something dumb, like trading the house and cashing in your 401k for prime melo, is no excuse for doing something as dumb as the MMM NTC for old melo. It’s the original sin Phil can’t overcome. It’s 3 wasted years with more on the way, unless there’s someone out there dumber than us.

    52. Donnie Walsh

      Yeah, too bad Phil couldn’t have made great moves like Donnie Walsh, like trading #1 picks away to get cap space, then using that cap space to sign a guy with no cartilage in his knees to a max contract and trading away 1,000 picks and every rootable player on the roster for the great Carmelo Anthony.

      Yeah, that’s my point. All the GMs we know have been bad and had their hand in crippling the franchise, also managed a few minor victories here and there. To focus on Phil signing a 2nd rounder to a long cheap deal and argue that “Phil haters” aren’t reasonably objective, ignores the obvious fact that the good is seriously outweighed by the bad, and that whomever replaces Jackson at the end of his tenure will have a lot excess crap to shed to move in a winning direction.

      To argue that Phil Jackson’s first 3 years here haven’t been terrible is the same as arguing in 2007 that Isiah was doing an adequate job. Check the archives: those people existed. And they were wrong.

    53. JK47

      Yeah, too bad Phil couldn’t have made great moves like Donnie Walsh, like trading #1 picks away to get cap space, then using that cap space to sign a guy with no cartilage in his knees to a max contract and trading away 1,000 picks and every rootable player on the roster for the great Carmelo Anthony.

      Just because our previous GMs were terrible does not mean Phil is good. Phil gets damned with faint praise more than just about anybody in the world.

      He didn’t trade away first round picks doe!
      He’s better than Isiah doe!
      He’s better than Donnie Walsh doe!
      The dumpster fire we have now is marginally better than the dumpster fire Phil inherited doe!
      He didn’t have first round picks to work with doe!

      I hope homey figures it out and at least doesn’t make any more crippling mistakes like the Melo and Noah contracts. If he does that, drafts reasonably well the next couple of years, then tips on out of here after the 2018-2019, I’ll be satisfied. I’ll tip my cap to him and say, “Thanks Phil, you were bad but you weren’t the worst.” If history is any indication though, he’ll probably do more dumb shit.

    54. ClashFan

      Today is my first day of official retirement as an English teacher. I no longer have to grade academic work. But I have and will grade Phil Jackson again.

      He’s earned a D.

      Here’s an interesting question. Who is the last Knick president/GM who we could say was above average? I’d say pre Dolan, right?

    55. Philmelo

      To argue that Phil Jackson’s first 3 years here haven’t been terrible is the same as arguing in 2007 that Isiah was doing an adequate job. Check the archives: those people existed. And they were wrong.

      They still exist and still have learned nothing. Personally, I am still waiting to see how the offseason ends before I begin to write Phil’s obituary as Knicks GM. He’s got to come up big by trading Melo for something of acceptable value and nailing the draft. But if he doesn’t on both counts then his tenure will be pretty indefensible.

    56. thenoblefacehumper

      We can argue about whether or not Phil is Isiah-level bad or just run-of-the-mill bad, but there’s no valid argument for denying the latter at the very least. He acquired every player on the roster and the roster sucks. At what point is he accountable if not now?

      He is reaching the point in his tenure where the situation he inherited is almost totally irrelevant. 3 years is plenty of time to acquire assets and all he did was cash in on the ones we already had while avoiding accumulating more in order to build around a declining Carmelo Anthony. If you want to pat him on the back for not trading away first round picks go for it, but we still suck ass and there’s not a clear path out of that.

    57. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      Phil Jackson will be replacing Phil Jackson at the end of his tenure so some of you need to get your crying towels washed and dried.

    58. Totes McGoats

      Here’s an interesting question. Who is the last Knick president/GM who we could say was above average? I’d say pre Dolan, right?

      +1
      Chuuuch!

      Dolan definitely is the bigger problem. Phil isn’t helping his own case though

    59. Frank

      It’s nice to see you come around, Frank.

      lmao

      one thing i feel like i can say about myself. i’ll admit when i’m wrong. and man was I wrong about Derrick Rose.

      but from pretty much Day 1 I have been anti-Phil Jackson. maybe it’s left over from his smug sneering face when he managed to beat us in the 90s, but I just can’t stand that guy.

    60. djphan

      i will say that grunwald.. minus the bargnani trade… was probably a solid A because he put together by far the best team we’ve had since the 90s… and every deal he made.. again minus the bargs deal… made sense and worked out… we just ran out of gas at the wrong time… maybe essentially trading lin for felton didn’t work out so great but i don’t think he made that call…

      if you include the bargs trade.. it’s a tough grade since it clouds everything because that was obviously really really bad… i might give him a C with donnie a C- and everyone else D’s and F minus squared..

    61. Frank

      He acquired every player on the roster and the roster sucks. At what point is he accountable if not now?

      +100000000000

    62. Frank

      And re: Grunwald – he brought the only 2 good Knicks runs of the last 18 years — 1) the 2012-13 team that was a joy to watch, even though we knew it was only going to be a 1-2 year run with all those old dudes, and 2) by far my happiest moments of the last 18 years — Linsanity.

    63. heavencent35

      My assessment with Phil tenure? It’s like the same from our previous gms, no playoffs, we keep on losing but this time we have draft picks. Our old gms also had our hopes tied to overrated veterans. Now our hope is for unknown rookies. I guess Phil continues drafting for the next 3 years til his contact expire and after that the new gm, lebrons decline, development of our young then we could finally be the force.

    64. Donnie Walsh

      every deal he made.. again minus the bargs deal… made sense and worked out

      Yeah, I like She grunwald. I think the bargnani trade he was against and led to his “reassignment”. But he, like everybody else under Dolan, was in “win now” mode, and he traded the future for a shot to go a few rounds deep into the playoffs.

      Good: signed Tyson Chandler. Found Lin. Found Novak.

      Bad: amnestied Billups to sign Chandler. Lost Lin. Traded Novak for Bargnani.

      Legacy: won 54 games, made 2nd round. Easily the best resume of post checketts GMs. But to accomplish 54 wins, traded lots of picks and players for old dudes like Marcus Camby, Ray Felton, Kurt Thomas, and tied up a lot of cap space in Jason Kidd (which Kidd forgave when he agreed to retire and take a buyout of pennies). One pick that Grunwald traded for Camby became Montrezl Harrell, who is a rising asset for a very good team right now, btw). And then there was Bargnani, which, fair or not, falls on him. So, above average for a Dolan exec? Yes! Above average for the GM of a competent franchise? ‘Fraid not.

    65. djphan

      amnesty’ing billups was the right move… he was just not the same after that injury in the playoffs… he played 40 games over the next two seasons….

      the camby, felton, thomas, sheed, martin and kidd deals all made sense… and it worked out for half a season beautifully… we were legitimately a good basketball team playing really good basketball…. camby was the only one that flopped but really that 2015 pick was the only thing that turned into something consequential….

      the lin deal was unfortunate…. but not sure how much of that could be pinned on grunwald…

    66. Donnie Walsh

      amnesty’ing billups was the right move… he was just not the same after that injury in the playoffs… he played 40 games over the next two seasons….

      It wasn’t that Billups was worth holding on to. It was that the amnesty card was worth holding on to. (Like the Allan Houston Amnesty Provision that Isiah brilliantly used to waive Jerome Williams, Grunwald used the Amar’e Stoudemire Amnesty Provision to dump the expiring year of a contract they had just opted in on). That is pretty damn Knicksy, no matter how you cut it!

    67. lavor postell

      Drafting a really good player with the 4th pick in what was a really good draft — golf claps. Nice job.

      1. Towns
      2. Russell
      3. Okafor
      4. Porzingis
      5. Mario Hezonja
      6. Cauley-Stein
      7. Mudiay
      8. Stanley Johnson
      9. Kaminsky
      10. Winslow

      Yeah, drafting KP in that group of players 4-10 is a bit harder than you’re making it seem. Other than Cauley-Stein and Winslow in flashes the rest of those guys haven’t shown a whole lot.

    68. DRed

      If a handsome GM was running Philly that year and had taken Winslow 3rd, I wonder if Phil would have taken Okafor over Kristaps.

    69. djphan

      well the main decision point was going after chandler… chandler was the largest reason we were good… and if we were planning on being good that was one of the better plans to do so… and amnestying billups and hoping amare can recover wasn’t all that bad a plan….

      because the alternative was amnestying amare right then and there which might’ve prevented chandler from signing and assuming he even would’ve signed we still would’ve been stuck with billups…

      this is a case where it worked out about as what you would expect and we were still pretty good in spite of amare not holding up…. because getting chandler was more important….

    70. DRed

      Yeah, that 12-13 team was a reasonable gamble. With some different luck that team could have won a title. I just don’t understand how they went from that team to the 13-14 team. Obviously, you couldn’t bring the same team back, but they seem to have had no idea why that team was good.

    71. Frank

      Yeah, that 12-13 team was a reasonable gamble. With some different luck that team could have won a title. I just don’t understand how they went from that team to the 13-14 team. Obviously, you couldn’t bring the same team back, but they seem to have had no idea why that team was good.

      Well – Tyson was injured for a bunch of the time, and Kidd retired. Those were big factors. When Tyson came back and was good again, they went on a serious run at the end of the year and almost snuck into the playoffs (16-5 over the last 21 games).

      if Tyson doesn’t get injured in the first week or two of the season, we probably don’t have Phil Jackson as POBO/GM now. smh.

    72. stratomatic

      @frank

      The problem with your analysis is that it assumes Phil signed player X, Y or Z because those were the players he wanted. Therefore, since he signed some mediocre and bad players, he’s a bad GM. That’s false.

      The players he signed at various times were the only players willing to play in NY at prices that made some sense while he was trying to field a team that was at least somewhat balanced in terms of needs. If someone offers you a pile of garbage, you don’t get to complain that you aren’t eating at a 4 star or 5 star restaurant. You say “Thank God someone left that half a slice of pizza so I don’t have to eat 3 day old sushi”.

      If Bobby Flay was willing to cook for us, we would have gotten better meals. :-)

      In other deals he absolutely knew he was getting less player value back than he was giving up, but he was getting cap space back quicker. He wanted JR Smith out of NY (for very good reason), he knew he did not want to sign Shumpert back at the price he was going to have to pay because of injuries and some similar concerns, and he wanted Felton gone.

      Deals like these must be viewed in a different light.

      If I have someone for 2-3 years that I think is a pretty good basketball player, but he’s not a fit and/or a net negative to the locker room, I’ll gladly take back a pile of crap to get cap space sooner and put someone I actually like in that slot. Of course I’d prefer to trade that pretty good player for a better player or another good player, but GMs aren’t stupid. Players like JR Smith and Felton were damaged goods. Even Shumpert was viewed as an injury risk that didn’t seem to be developing and that was hanging out with JR. They had no value because of who they were, not because of Phil.

    73. Donnie Walsh

      well the main decision point was going after chandler… chandler was the largest reason we were good… and if we were planning on being good that was one of the better plans to do so… and amnestying billups and hoping amare can recover wasn’t all that bad a plan….

      Oh, I agree that it was the best move to make if the goal was to win as many games as possible that year. Grunwald was told to win now by Dolan and did a damn good job of putting a team together to win basketball games.

      The overriding thing that all these Dolan Era GMs have in common is the “win now” mentality, which, naturally, comes at the expense of the future. (Looking to the future, Grunwald, like many KB posters circa 2012, could have foreseen the long-term benefits of hanging onto the amnesty provision over putting together a decent but OLD team to appease Dolan in the short term).

      For me (like Frank, I think), the idea of Phil “The Knicks are a bunch of Thugs and Football players” Jackson taking over the Knicks was palatable because he was, obviously, extremely good at winning championships, and the idea was that his 13 rings would be enough to keep Dolan from dictating how the team would be run. As it’s been, presumably without Dolan’s meddling, Jackson has conducted his tenure the same way that Layden, Isiah, Walsh, and Grunwald did: in “win now” mode, while winning very little.

    74. thenoblefacehumper

      Grunwald is definitely the best Knicks GM of my lifetime. I fully believe the Bargnani deal was forced on him and he put together a team that had a non-zero chance of winning a championship. It was still a very low chance and it can be argued that it wasn’t worth giving away some of the picks and flexibility he gave up, but he’s still the only GM who has sniffed contention since the Ewing days.

    75. Cock Jowles, A Proven Scorer Who Is Worth All of His Max Contract

      and man was I wrong about Derrick Rose.

      I warmly welcome you back to the mainland.

    76. Cock Jowles, A Proven Scorer Who Is Worth All of His Max Contract

      Today is my first day of official retirement as an English teacher. I no longer have to grade academic work. But I have and will grade Phil Jackson again.

      Congrats! Unfortunately, now you have more time to devote to watching Phil Jackson further degrade a rotten NBA franchise.

    77. JK47

      The players he signed at various times were the only players willing to play in NY at prices that made some sense while he was trying to field a team that was at least somewhat balanced in terms of needs.

      I hate this argument. You don’t give out a 4/72 contract to zombie Joakim Noah because he’s “the only player willing to play in NY.” It’s like Phil has no agency at all in this scenario– “Welp, what are you gonna do, we exhausted all avenues and the only move available to us was to give a terrible contract to Joakim Noah.”

      No. There were other things Phil could have done besides the “trade for Rose and sign Joakim Noah” gambit. He doesn’t get a pass for that. That shit blew up in his face.

    78. thenamestsam

      We have 2 good young pieces, The 8th pick, 2 2nd round picks, a lot of cap space, and arguably only 1 bad contract on the books (Noah). That is hardly as bad as the catastrophes we’ve been enduring for a very long time. We are in decent shape going forward despite the Noah stumble. It takes a very long time to rebuild from close to zero. The real issue is that he hasn’t made any home run deals other than for Willy. All he has been doing is moving pieces around and keeping cap flexibility.

      It’s funny to me that I agree with pretty much every word stratomatic wrote there and yet totally disagree on the final evaluation of Phil. Only thing I disagree with is I’d definitely count the Melo contract as “bad” (it remains a problem until and unless we prove able to get off of it). Otherwise yeah that’s basically the long and short of Phil’s tenure. And yet I’d fire Phil today.

    79. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      Again, Phil has forgotten more basketball than all of you put together will ever know. Please try to remember that.

    80. Donnie Walsh

      Again, Phil has forgotten more basketball than all of you put together will ever know. Please try to remember that.

      If Phil has forgotten everything he ever knew, your statement would still be correct, and the results of his management would still be the same.

    81. Z-man

      Oops, posted on the wrong thread!
      I’m not arguing that Phil has been good. He hasn’t. I’m just pointing out that whatever his sins, the franchise is in much better shape looking 3 years into the future than it was when Isiah, or Donnie, or Glen ended their tenures. He made some terrible mistakes…most notably the Melo deal…but none of the other deals were nearly as consequential (negatively) as some of the ones made by his predecessors.

      The Chandler deal: probably should have waited and gotten back more/better value. But Chandler was an expiring, coming off an horrific playoff performance, and injury prone. If Chandler goes down with a bad knee for 3 months, we’d have gotten nothing back. Dalambert and Calderon were both plus players the previous year. He got two 2nds and whiffed on guys Jokic, Grant and Clarkson.

      The Rose deal: not good, but freed up cap space for this year. Lopez has since been replaced by Hernangomez. Grant has been so-so, generously. We attained a 2nd rounder and rented Holiday for a year.

      The Noah deal: inexplicably dumb. Beyond hoping that he recovers enough to be a 10-15mpg bench/practice player, there’s no excuse for this.

      But there is a path ahead and with a few decent breaks, we could be at least stable in 3 years. That’s more than could be said since probably the Ewing trade, or at least pre-Melo.

    82. Donnie Walsh

      I’m just pointing out that whatever his sins, the franchise is in much better shape looking 3 years into the future than it was when Isiah, or Donnie, or Glen ended their tenures.

      This is, arguably, correct (Phil, of course, hasn’t yet ended his tenure); however, it should be stated that Isiah and Walsh’s worst mistake contracts aren’t even possible under the CBA that Jackson has been working under. So the Noah and Anthony contracts may not hurt as much in the long run, they were still just about the worst contracts to hand out that were legally possible at the time.

      All these guys get a mild pass for having to undo the errors of the previous guy. But the name of the game isn’t leaving a smaller mess to mop up than the last guy.

    83. Jack Bauer

      No excuses, but all of these guys should get some level of a pass for working with the handicap that Dolan is as the owner. This raises the level of difficulty exponentially relative to other GM’s.

    84. stratomatic

      I hate this argument. You don’t give out a 4/72 contract to zombie Joakim Noah because he’s “the only player willing to play in NY.”

      If you read the entire conversation, it has long been agreed that the Noah signing was a bad move.

      The conversation was about other free agent signings that didn’t work out or that were for mediocre players (Afflalo, Jennings, Derrick Williams etc..). Phil signed those players because they were the only players willing to sign in NY and they filled a need, but he did make the mistake of signing them to long long term deals. That tells you he knew exactly what he was doing. They were filler. If he had the opportunity to sign a star player, he would have.

      The problem is that before you can run you have to walk. But we’ve had a tough time getting to the walking stage because we were missing 2 first round picks. If we select someone good this year and KP and WH start showing real progress, better players will start coming to NY as FAs also.

    85. d-mar

      I will never, ever understand why Phil had to give Carmelo a no trade clause. The only other players in the NBA with NTC’s are Garnett and Nowitzki. Every other star who re-upped in the past few years did not get one.

      I mean, how did the negotiation go:

      Melo’s agent “NTC or we walk”

      Phil: “well….you drive a hard bargain….but, ok”

      Think about the increased flexibility we’d have if we could send Melo anywhere. Just makes no sense that Phil had to give that up.

    86. stratomatic

      At no point have I argued that Phil has done a great job.

      I have been arguing that he was dealt a horrible hand. I’ve also been explaining the reasons it’s taking so long to make progress (lack of picks, lack of interest by FAs) and my opinion on what the thinking was behind deals that have been unfairly criticized (reasons that I agree with).

      He hasn’t done a great job (no home runs other than Willy), but he isn’t horrible either (one clear error in Noah).

      IMO, the people that think he’s been terrible are seeing things through extremely biased eyes that are reinforced by a NY basketball media that is a combination of incompetent and agenda driven. They should be put on ignore. They are clueless.

    87. DRed

      The whole Melo contract was a clear mistake. Trading anything for Derrick Rose was a clear mistake. The Noah deal was a clear mistake.

      We signed Afflalo and Noah right at the start of free agency. I’m not sure why you believe those were the only players willing to come to NY (and we’d just traded our starting center before signing Noah, so we could have just not made one mistake in order to clear up space to make another mistake). I agree the franchise is-keeping the last 16 years in mind-in relatively good shape, and Phil deserves some credit for that. But he’s made plenty of clear errors.

    88. Z-man

      This is, arguably, correct (Phil, of course, hasn’t yet ended his tenure); however, it should be stated that Isiah and Walsh’s worst mistake contracts aren’t even possible under the CBA that Jackson has been working under. So the Noah and Anthony contracts may not hurt as much in the long run, they were still just about the worst contracts to hand out that were legally possible at the time.

      All these guys get a mild pass for having to undo the errors of the previous guy. But the name of the game isn’t leaving a smaller mess to mop up than the last guy.

      I don’t think it’s fair to say that the CBA has changed and therefore Phil was not capable of screwing up more than his predecessors. Squandering first round picks was possible under any CBA, and all three predecessors did so. If a team has all of its first round picks, it has hope no matter what happens. Nothing sucked more about the last 17 years than watching other teams draft in our spot time and time again, and having no playoff success t show for it. So until Phil trades away first round picks, he will most certainly leave his replacement better off than any before him was left.

      And I don’t by any of the bullshit that previous GMs were “forced” to make deals by Dolan. If a guy of Walsh’s stature felt that a deal was a bad one, he should have said so and threatened to resign on the spot if Dolan didn’t back off. Was he really worried that doing that would hurt his reputation at that point? Please. At least Phil has to “own” his mistakes and can’t cop out by intimating that he was Dolan’s pawn.

    89. Z-man

      It is also possible that Phil figured that changes in the CBA and cap would make a long-term deal with a NTC less onerous. And if he succeeds in moving Melo in a salary dump without giving up assets, that would be justified in hindsight. Not that it is a good deal, only that it was not as bad as the signings Amare or Bargnani or Steph or Curry or even Allan Houston.

    90. djphan

      and so where does the noah, thomas, jr/shump and chandler deals rank amongst some of the bad ones we’ve made? imo … they are pretty high up… we were fortunate enough that it backfired just enough to land kp…. this year we will probably not be as lucky…

    91. Accidentank 2017

      The Derrick Rose trade would not have been so bad if Phil Jackson spent the money in a more prudent fashion.

    92. geo

      hmmmm, maybe it would be better to take a few wacks at phil than to keep beating this dead horse – but, the two things that really trigger me about phil: his insane salary (only because for that price – we really should have gotten the “best of the best”) and the fact that he proclaimed upon arriving here that he was going to improve the knick’s organizational “culture”…

      that didn’t happen…

      At least the team isn’t the Sacramento Kings or Brooklyn Nets ;)

      the one lone bright spot at the moment – but, for how much longer…

    93. Z-man

      The Chandler deal is not anywhere near as bad as any of the real doozies. Shump and JR were expirings; JR was a cancer here and Shump got paid way more than he was worth by Cleveland.

      Lance is not worth the money, but was Jared Jeffries? Jerome James? Jamal Crawford? Clarence Weatherspoon? Howard Eisley? Antonio McDyess? Larry Hughes? Al Harrington? Tim Thomas?

    94. JK47

      All of the terrible moves Phil made were instantly panned and mocked by Team Realist. You can retroactively rationalize these horrible moves however you want, but a lot of people here correctly noted at the time that they were extremely shitty moves.

    95. Totes McGoats

      Question..
      Given Phil’s limited resources, what do you all think would be the worst move:
      1. Keeping Melo to take some scoring pressure off of KP
      2. Trading Melo but re-signing Rose to a 1 year make good deal and letting him be the primary playmaker

      They both are pretty bad decisions IMO, but if I had to pick one, it would be to keep Melo. Without a doubt. I’m just so anxious to see what Phil does with cap space, a lottery pick, and 2 2nd rounders in the same offseason.

    96. lavor postell

      and so where does the noah, thomas, jr/shump and chandler deals rank amongst some of the bad ones we’ve made?

      These aren’t even in the pantheon of shitty Knicks moves.

      Lance Thomas for 4/$28m with the 4th year non-guaranteed?

      JR/Shump for cap space, Lance and a 2nd rounder?

      Chandler/Felton for Calderon, Dalembert, Larkin and two 2nd round picks?

      Noah’s the only thing in his portfolio of moves that would be of note during the Layden and Isiah years. It would be extremely hard to fuck an NBA franchise more than those 2 did though Billy King found a way.

    97. djphan

      Lets just say any of those deals are worse than any deal donnie walsh made… in my eyes they are all on the level of jerome james bad….

    98. Z-man

      Wait, Signing Amare to a deal worth 40% of the cap for 5 years for 1 tear’s production wasn’t a horror? The original Melo trade wasn’t a horror?

    99. KnickfaninNJ

      Reading all the headlines at the top of this blog, it seems like most of you are arguing that Mark Jackson is 100% correct. That just boggles my mind. This is the sort of thing Mark Jackson is pompous and wrong about. His quotes actually give me hope.

    100. DRed

      Funny, I just looked at the 2014 draft thread to see who people wanted around the Early pick, and nobody mentioned Jokic in the 200+ comments. Denver really hit the lotto on that one.

    101. djphan

      the amare deal was bad but we had cap space and needed talent…. i would not have done that deal but if we had to get talent then who else would you have saved that cap space for?

      fwiw… that amare deal also started a chain reaction of getting melo and then also chandler… maybe we would be better off long term if none of that ever happened… but there’s also a universe where amare hangs on for two more seasons… or billups doesn’t get hurt… or kidd hangs on for the full season…. or friggin melo just signs with us during the offseason….

      i can’t fault the amare deal too bad… it’s one of those deals where if that’s the direction you’re choosing to go that was probably the best you could have done….

    102. Accidentank 2017

      Willy Hernangomez’s numbers as a rookie weren’t much different from Jokic’s numbers as a rookie. That’s really encouraging IMO.

      Phil Jackson still has a job because he drafted KP and Willy Hernangomez. Without those two players Phil would be history. I really don’t think Lance Thomas and Courtney Lee were bad players to sign; it’s more that our Big 4 was a bunch of shit this season. The only way PJ can save his legacy is if he drafts another stud on draft night.

    103. Z-man

      While I understand our need to judge deals on the record in the moment, I always hope that somehow, even bad deals work out. I hoped that Phoenix’s medical staff was wrong and Amare had 4-5 good years left in those knees. As it turns out, there was a reason they were uninsurable.

      I said at the time that we gave up two pieces too many for Melo. I would have refused to part with Mozgov and one of the #1 picks. In retrospect, even then we would have given up too much for what we got in Melo. At least his deal now is less than 30% of the cap, as opposed to his last deal, and Amare’s. There’s the opportunity cost of his current deal, which is substantial. But odds are that we would have spent that money foolishly anyway, e.g. on Monroe or Aldridge. NTC or no NTC, Melo’s deal expires in two years and that’ll be that. One year later, Noah and Lee expire. 2020 or bust!

    104. djphan

      well we really just need to hit on one of these lotto picks the next couple of years… both would be nice but one more piece is enough to build something with… if phil can accomplish that i might rank him ahead of walsh…. if not… he might end up besides layden since he would wind up with the most high value picks any knicks gm ever had….

    105. Cock Jowles, A Proven Scorer Who Is Worth All of His Max Contract

      The Chandler deal is not anywhere near as bad as any of the real doozies. Shump and JR were expirings; JR was a cancer here and Shump got paid way more than he was worth by Cleveland.

      I will defend the Chandler deal only because he had a poor 2013-14 by his standards, and I could see that being attributed to age and mileage. Plus, the Knicks got two productive players who turned to dogshit immediately thereafter.

      I will not defend the reasoning used to defend the Chandler deal at the time (by certain unnamed posters here): that Chandler was just another replaceable cog in the Carmelo Anthony Floor-Spacing Machine, and that he was not the primary reason that the 2011-2013 Knicks were as successful as they were, even if they played well without him during a “win streak” near the end of 2013. The story, as it was told, was that any player could be Chandler if they just stopped taking midrange shots. Don’t look now, but it’s been three years since Chandler donned blue and orange, and he’s still putting up >.700 TS% and 20 TRB/48, albeit in limited minutes.

      JR and Shump are role players on a team that needs high production 1 through 8 to compete with the greatest offense to play basketball in our lifetimes. Of course they got overpaid: it was either pay Shumpert twice his worth, or try to find a rookie who could give them 2,000 minutes and not totally embarrass himself out there. When you’re that far over the cap and your core is untouchable, you need to resign everyone you can and pay the tax penalty.

      Let’s not criticize the JR and Shump deals without considering context and need. They would be horrible for the Knicks and Nets, but they are probably the best that the Cavs can do aside from signing some NBDL stud that 29 other NBA teams just happened to whiff on.

    106. geo

      man, just heard jerry west may be looking for a job – why ain’t we throwing handfuls of sweaty cash at him???

    107. Donnie Walsh

      Willy Hernangomez’s numbers as a rookie weren’t much different from Jokic’s numbers as a rookie. That’s really encouraging IMO.

      They were pretty different. And Jokic was quite a bit younger.

      Hernangomez’s rebounding stands out, but other than that, and given his age, his rookie year doesn’t really seem any more exciting than Channing Frye’s with the Knicks.

    108. Brian Cronin

      (Like the Allan Houston Amnesty Provision that Isiah brilliantly used to waive Jerome Williams

      Not for nothing, but it actually made more financial sense to waive Williams, since Houston’s salary was mostly covered by insurance due to his injuries.

    109. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      WIlly was significantly better than Frye by BPM (.1 vs -1.4) and about 20% better by WS/48. He had a very impressive rookie campaign.

      His numbers aren’t that similar to Jokic because Jokic is just this absurdly polished offensive player. Jokic and Willys numbers might be similar if you keep in mind that Jokic shot more 3s at at 33% clip, passed the ball more and turned it over way less.

      Willy is still very promising however and I’m quite high on him. Especially if he loses that baby fat!

    110. stratomatic

      How is the Derrick Rose trade clearly bad when he’s off the books this year and we have that cap space available to fill with new players?

      As I keep saying (and it continues to fall onto many deaf ears), cap space is an asset.

      It’s what you do with the cap space you are getting sooner that determines whether a trade was good or not.

      So in this case, we have cap space sooner instead of having Lopez and Grant. If he substitutes better players or better value into that cap space than Lopez and Grant, it was a good move. If he signs some old broken down player to a long expensive contract, it was a bad move.

      At the time, I argued it was going to be difficult to find better value/players than Lopez and Grant when Rose was gone. But before I totally trash Phil on that deal, I want to see what he comes up with. There may be players at certain prices that I would rather have than the combination of Lopez and Grant at their prices in that same cap space.

    111. stratomatic

      I will defend the Chandler deal only because he had a poor 2013-14 by his standards, and I could see that being attributed to age and mileage. Plus, the Knicks got two productive players who turned to dogshit immediately thereafter.

      Not to mention that he WANTED out because he wanted no part of even a partial rebuild at the time (and ironically that’s what he’s dealing with now). When a player is asking out, management is somewhat pressured to make a move. If you don’t there are locker room issues to consider, but more important, you don’t want to alienate agents that may control other players you may want later.

    112. Brian Cronin

      How is the Derrick Rose trade clearly bad when he’s off the books this year and we have that cap space available to fill with new players?

      Every team in the league was overflowing with cap space last offseason. With the salaries being handed out, the Knicks, if cap space was really mainly what they wanted (it wasn’t, but let’s say that it was), they could have easily traded Lopez to a team with cap space for an actual asset. The Wizards signed Ian Mahinmi for a gazillion dollars. They could have had Lopez for much cheaper (and he’s a few years younger). If Jackson really was just looking for cap space, he could have found a much better trade than Rose. But that’s not what Jackson was looking for. He was looking for Derrick Rose and the flexibility of being able to possibly replace Rose after a year if need be. He should not have been looking for Derrick Rose ever, which was the problem. He not only wants cap space, but he wants stopgaps to get them to the playoff hunt before then getting their cap space back. That’s not smart planning, because the stopgaps are not good enough to get them to the playoffs. So the cap space should be used to acquire assets for the future, not awful stopgaps like Derrick Rose and Arron Afflalo.

    113. Donnie Walsh

      Not for nothing, but it actually made more financial sense to waive Williams, since Houston’s salary was mostly covered by insurance due to his injuries

      Yeah, but the insured contract stayed on the salary cap. So, outside of Dolan saving $, not amnestying him hurt the team’s ability to put a good roster together more than waiving Jerome Williams helped it (no?).

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