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Saturday, November 18, 2017

Knicks Morning News (2017.05.18)

  • [NYTimes] On Pro Basketball: It’s Back to the Future for the Celtics, the Sixers and the Lakers
    (Wednesday, May 17, 2017 11:31:20 PM)

    It is not hard to imagine a day soon when the Celtics and the 76ers are grappling for supremacy in the East, with the Lakers awaiting the winner, just like in the 1980s.

  • [NYTimes] On Pro Basketball: Spurs Get Gregg Popovich’s Message, to Their Detriment
    (Wednesday, May 17, 2017 11:55:23 PM)

    The San Antonio coach’s negative statements before Game 2 became a self-fulfilling prophecy in a 136-100 loss to the Warriors on Tuesday.

  • [NYTimes] Cavaliers 117, Celtics 104: Cavaliers Overwhelm Celtics in Game 1
    (Thursday, May 18, 2017 3:59:52 AM)

    LeBron James scored 38 points, Kevin Love added 32, and Boston was never really close in a dominant performance by Cleveland.

  • [NYTimes] Frank Brian, Standout in N.B.A.’s Early Years, Dies at 94
    (Wednesday, May 17, 2017 11:26:24 PM)

    Slight by current N.B.A. standards at 6 feet 1 inches and about 175 pounds, Mr. Brian was known as a versatile guard at L.S.U. and as a professional.

  • [NYPost] Top Knicks defender: ‘Carmelo fights for his teammates’
    (Wednesday, May 17, 2017 8:24:05 PM)

    Knicks forward Lance Thomas experienced an injury-marred season, starting with plantar fasciitis in both feet, a fractured orbital bone and a mysterious hip injury that ended his season with 11 games left. But Thomas appears just as pained that Carmelo Anthony is being used by management as a scapegoat for a season gone horribly wrong….

  • [NYPost] The ‘Russell Westbrook’ type whose red flags can make him a Knick
    (Wednesday, May 17, 2017 4:20:45 PM)

    With the Knicks falling back to eighth in next month’s NBA draft, dynamic if disappointing N.C. State point guard Dennis Smith Jr. has landed squarely in their crosshairs. However, his college coach, Mark Gottfried, told The Post he doubts Smith will be there at No. 8. Gottfried touted Smith’s “Russell athleticism’’ and charged his guy…

  • [SNY Knicks] JR Sport Brief: Knicks are in a heap of trouble
    (Wednesday, May 17, 2017 4:00:59 PM)

    In the latest installment of JR Sport Brief on SNY.tv, JR runs down the list of issues revolving around the Knicks.

  • [SNY Knicks] Ntilikina, Monk could be options for Knicks with 8th pick
    (Wednesday, May 17, 2017 12:05:38 PM)

    Now that the ping pong balls have dropped, there’s no question anymore: the Knicks will select eighth in the 2017 NBA Draft.

  • [NYDN] Phil Jackson turns chatty after meeting with Adam Silver
    (Wednesday, May 17, 2017 9:50:22 PM)

    The biggest surprise at the NBA Draft Lottery wasn’t the Knicks falling one spot from seven to eight.

  • [NYDN] A look at the last 10 players taken at No. 8 in the NBA Draft
    (Wednesday, May 17, 2017 11:03:24 AM)

    Sorry Knicks fans, but looks like the light at the end of the tunnel won’t be visible at the 2017 NBA Draft.

  • 143 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.05.18)

    1. Frank

      I watched just a little of the Cavs-Celtics games last night, but it was hilarious watching Lebron just BEAST Olynyk on what felt like 6 plays in a row. Get the easy switch by doing a 4/1 or 4/2 PNR, spread the floor, and watch LBJ lay the ball up.

      Lebron really is amazing. Mike Greenberg had a great little segment a couple weeks back talking about the current perception of Jordan — and what I took out of it is that most writers are now in their 40s and 50s, and so they were teenagers/college kids when Jordan was at his peak –> more impressionable and so the emotions watching the greatest player ever are so much stronger at that age.

      I’m in my early 40s now and I feel exactly the same way. There’s something visceral that makes it hard for me to think of anyone the same way I feel about Jordan. But Lebron is right there. The guy truly is the size of Karl Malone, has the vision/passing of Magic Johnson, and has the athleticism of Jordan. And after the early part of his career when it seemed like he didn’t really want to take over games by himself, I think he really does have that killer instinct now. I mean, he literally just destroyed the Celtics in that first quarter all by himself.

    2. bobneptune

      I’m sorry fellas, I think the Knicks have one move to make:

      If Jonathan Isaac is available with the 5th pick I dangle KP in front of Sacto for their 5 and 10th picks. I would love to re work the Knicks with a directed rebuild: WHG plus Isaac and the BPA with picks 8 and 10 (which should be substantial players).

      Move everything movable Melo, Lee , KOQ for picks, rent cap space for future assets and have high picks in the next year or two with a bunch of good young players on rookie contracts.

      Rinse and repeat.

    3. english_knick

      I would love to come out of this draft with Isaac and frank. In that trade (@2) we could also take collins or anounoby (or if his knee checks out, Giles). Long two-way athletes who can guard multiple positions are the future of the NBA. So I see the temptation.

      But I still think people on this board risk undervaluing KP or giving up too fast. He averaged 18, 7 and 2 blocks as a sophomore while playing in a dysfunctional team with two high usage ball stoppers, one of whom is also a PG who can’t pass or shoot. He shot 36% from three at 7’3″. And over a non-trivial 20 game sample to start the year he averaged 21 points st close to 50% from the floor and 40% from 3. He’s 21.

      There’s a good chance none of the 5th, 8th or 10th players in the draft will EVER exceed those numbers.

      Used and developed right, KP could be a top 10 player in the whole league. All the other teams and their fans know this which is why they tried to nab him at the first sign of trouble. True, we’re terrible at developing players. And other things could also stop him getting there. But that’s as much a problem with the picks we trade him for as it is with keeping him.

      In building a winning team there is just no substitute for patience. I’m not ready to give up on KP yet…

    4. Frank

      Dudes – let’s just stop with the idea that we’re going to trade KP. There is no world on which this is a good idea, barring a ridiculous Godfather offer from a team like the Celtics (Fultz + Nets pick next year + Bradley + Crowder, for instance). KP is easily one of the top 10 assets in the whole league right now because he’s still under control for 3 more years on a rookie scale AND you’d have designated player rights on him if traded now. The only assets in the league that are probably equal are (IMHO and in no particular order):

      1 – Towns
      2 – Curry
      3 – Durant
      4 – Anthony Davis
      5 – Lebron of course
      6 – Kawhi
      7 – Harden
      8 – Draymond
      9 – maybe Jokic

      In other words – true franchise changing superstars or a couple of players on rookie contracts that have looked as good or better as KP. That’s it. Other teams know what our 1980s front office doesn’t know — that is, that KP has been horribly misused on both sides of the floor so far. The dude has TONS of talent, the right mindset, and by all accounts is a gym rat. He’s great with the press, has never gotten in trouble, does a bunch of charity stuff. You don’t give up a player like KP for the 5th and 10th picks in the draft, or even consider trading him WITH the #8 pick to get a guy who’s completely unproven at the NBA level. Fultz looks great, but no scout that I’ve read has any illusions that he’s the next Lebron or Anthony Davis or Tim Duncan. He’s on the same level (re: prospect value) as guys like Kyrie, Wiggins, etc. Would you trade KP for a guy who has a possibility of being one of those guys?

    5. Z-man

      So are all the smart guys here who predicted that the Warriors would beat the Cavs still feeling that way? Is anyone coming around to my way of thinking that the Cavs were playin’ ‘possum all year and are now essentially an unbeatable team? Cavs in 6 vs. GSW, you heard in here first.

    6. Frank

      meanwhile Woj is reporting that Brooklyn, Philly, and the Knicks are interested in signing JJ Redick. SMH on all those teams being interested in a 32 year old SG, but especially SMH for us since he’s exactly who we shouldn’t be trying to sign, and we already have a 32 year old SG.

      I wouldn’t necessarily be upset at us signing Redick as part of a sign and trade (and also trading Lee in a separate deal) for younger players / trade assets, but that doesn’t feel like what this is.

    7. lavor postell

      I’d be fine with Redick for a couple of years if it came in combination with moving Lee for a pick. Wouldn’t be how I’d do things moving forward, but it’s a reasonable choice.

      @Frank

      Agreed on KP. We’d be insane to trade him right now unless Boston ponied up both Brooklyn pick and that’s not happening.

      As far as being used wrong I don’t buy it at all. It’s very convenient for the players that when things go wrong they can blame it on the coaching staff and organization but it’s nobody’s fault but KP and his dumbass brother that he can’t abuse switches of guards and wings in the post. Nobody made him work on his crossover last summer instead of his post game. It’s nobody’s fault other than his that he’s always scrambling on D because he has poor positional sense and as a result picks up a lot of stupid fouls trying to make hero ball defensive plays. It’s nobody’s fault that he’s an anemic rebounder that routinely got blitzed on the boards at the 4 and even more embarrassingly at the 5.

      KP got more than enough spot up 3s from the top of the key, he frankly just wasnt good at them as the season went along as his legs turned into jelly. It’s the same thing that happened to him his rookie season. He simply needs to get his skinny ass in the gym and improve his body. It’s easy to forget, but he was noticeably bigger last season than he was in his rookie season, so he’s on the right path and the stretch he had at the start of the season was a tantalizing teaser of what he could be when his body is right and that’s without having a developed post game in any capacity yet.

      His 3rd year is when I expected him to make the leap and after his antics this summer the pressure is squarely on his shoulders to deliver.

    8. wetbandit

      KP is a top rim protector, averaging 2.2 bk/36, 36% from three, a rising TS% and average WS/48 on a shit-ass team with a shit-ass system and a shit-ass owner with a glazed donut face ass. He isn’t used properly, they don’t really run plays for him, he was playing with a shit PG and a shit Melo, shit defensive players, and was probably in the worst situation in the NBA he could be in.

      He isn’t the problem, and if you’re pointing any fingers at him, then maybe your mentality is part of the problem. I don’t hold the view that pro athletes are getting paid so stfu, and I actually agree with everything KP and his brother have said. If he values winning and finds this team unrelentingly ridiculous, then I respect his decision to go at some point. He’s acting like a guy with a good head on his shoulders by not simply not agreeing with the perpetual chaos.

    9. lavor postell

      KP is a top rim protector, averaging 2.2 bk/36, 36% from three, a rising TS% and average WS/48 on a shit-ass team with a shit-ass system and a shit-ass owner with a glazed donut face ass. He isn’t used properly, they don’t really run plays for him, he was playing with a shit PG and a shit Melo, shit defensive players, and was probably in the worst situation in the NBA he could be in.

      His rising TS% was sinking after his hot start to the year despite getting the exact same shots. Rose wasn’t a great foil for him, but he got plenty of spot up 3s off of early clock pick and pop and he wasn’t very good at them after Christmas. His rim protection is great, but he was chasing blocks quite frequently last season and left his man wide open at the 3 point line, committed way too many stupid fouls and couldn’t rebound. This isn’t an all or nothing equation. Yes, the roster around him wasn’t ideal and didn’t make his life easier, but he wasn’t amazing in all the aspects that were under his control either. He’s not the first young player in the history of the NBA to have to deal with less than ideal circumstances. AD’s been doing it his whole career for example.

      If he values winning and finds this team unrelentingly ridiculous, then I respect his decision to go at some point. He’s acting like a guy with a good head on his shoulders by not simply not agreeing with the perpetual chaos.

      He’s acting like a primadonna. Skipping out on an exit meeting isn’t professional. If a player did this to any team but the Knicks they’d get pilloried for it, even if it was a franchise equally dysfunctional like the Kings. Also if your issue is dysfunction, skipping out on an exit meeting and not responding to your coach’s messages are dumbass way of trying to remedy the situation.

    10. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      @14 I agree about KP’s behavior. I’m blaming 90% of it on cancerMelo. He must be gone.

    11. Frank

      @lavor — mmmm…. I don’t buy it. He is clearly being told that he should not be shooting 3s. Yes, he average five 3’s per 40, but that EASILY could have been 7 3’s per 40. When did most of his ball handling turnovers happen? When he decided that he should be driving the ball rather than just freaking shooting over the defense when essentially wide open. Even shooting 36% from 3 = an eFG of 54.

      Any normal basketball team would have known that he’s not strong enough yet to dominate the post. And it’s not like the Knicks had zero input into his offseason workouts last summer — Joshua Longstaff was basically his BFF if Latvia. So any work he put in on his ball handling was done with the team’s blessing.

      KP’s body and game right now is basically like Durant’s, except that Durant is obviously amazing off the dribble. If you know his ball handling is not up to snuff, and you know that he’s not great posting up even guys that are 7 inches shorter than him, then tell him NOT TO DO IT. KP is clearly best off limiting his offense to PNP and spot-up 3’s, basket cuts, and running him off screens. There’re a ton of ways to do that even within the stupid Triangle. That triangle cut where he gets a good free throw line look off a screen seems to work every single time they try it, but he barely ever does it. He would be amazing off Durant-like pin downs, but they never do it.

      On defense, he has a 5% block rate even though he spends most of his time chasing stretch 4’s around the perimeter. WtF is that. Per B-R, he played even less center this year than he did last year. Yes, he needs to concentrate more on rebounding the ball. But asking him to guard 4’s all the time is just compounding the problem. You put him at risk for fouls. You take him away from the basket, where he is by far the Knicks’ best rim protector (and also take away his greatest ability).

    12. stratomatic

      A statistical look at how bad the Knicks’ front office is at managing the draft: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-knicks-cant-even-get-the-draft-lottery-right/

      This article is mostly irrelevant because it was multiple PRIOR management teams that traded away the draft picks that left the current Knicks/Jackson in the piss poor position of having no 1 round pick in 2 of the last 3 years while we were beginning the rebuild. We don’t need a new article to let us know we’ve had poor management in the past when it comes to dealing away picks.

      It was fortunate the current team was smart enough to get the pick that landed Willy. If Phil had those 2 first round picks we’d be massively further along and perhaps some different decisions would have been made.

      But his is the kind of stuff I expect from the media. There’s always either an agenda, bias, or incompetence coloring everything.

    13. DS

      He’s acting like a primadonna. Skipping out on an exit meeting isn’t professional. If a player did this to any team but the Knicks they’d get pilloried for it, even if it was a franchise equally dysfunctional like the Kings. Also if your issue is dysfunction, skipping out on an exit meeting and not responding to your coach’s messages are dumbass way of trying to remedy the situation

      Agree, but he’s 21. You’re acting like he’s showing his true colors and can’t be trusted. He just needs to be taught not to brood and to express himself better.

    14. 2FOR18

      @ Frank. I’m in no rush to deal KP, but the proposed trade made by a poster on the other thread was KP for Fultz, with us keeping our #8. It’s not a Godfather offer, but it’s one that has to be considered, hopefully combined with trading melo, lee and/or Oquinn for late 1s and early 2s.

    15. Frank

      Re: KP’s 3 point attempts — Steph Curry is a much better shooter of course, but he AVERAGES ~11 3PA’s per 40. I wasted enough of my life watching the Knicks last year to know that KP could easily have put up 8-9 3’s per 40 and have them all be open or wide-open and in the flow of the offense (as opposed to just hunting 3’s). Some of it was Derrick Rose just not passing him the ball, but a lot of it was KP obviously having an internal struggle about whether to shoot it or not. Even if KP shoots only 36%, having a 7 footer who can shoot it like that completely compromises the defense so that other stuff can happen.

      This is on the coaching staff and Phil Jackson.

    16. wetbandit

      1. The exit meeting was unanimously labeled voluntary, and the less of Phil’s voice he hears the better I feel

      2. There are few times a player should publicly show dissatisfaction with a team, and the Knicks are a textbook example of a team that should be slapped in the face and told to shape up, from top to bottom

      3. I can explain away most of what you said, like ‘chasing blocks’ rather than stay on his man– umm, you do remember what a sieve the defense was and if he didn’t chase the running layup, that would would have been worse? This explains the fouls. Also, I challenge you that Anthony Davis has been in any way the same situation as KP.

      This team is a cesspool, and if KP wants to show disgust with it, good. Maybe Melo should have been less me77ow about it years ago.

    17. lavor postell

      @ Frank

      mmmm…. I don’t buy it. He is clearly being told that he should not be shooting 3s. Yes, he average five 3’s per 40, but that EASILY could have been 7 3’s per 40. When did most of his ball handling turnovers happen? When he decided that he should be driving the ball rather than just freaking shooting over the defense when essentially wide open. Even shooting 36% from 3 = an eFG of 54.

      He started driving more because he had no confidence in his shot. He shot pretty poorly after the new year. His 3PAr dropped because teams started switching PNR.

      Any normal basketball team would have known that he’s not strong enough yet to dominate the post. And it’s not like the Knicks had zero input into his offseason workouts last summer — Joshua Longstaff was basically his BFF if Latvia. So any work he put in on his ball handling was done with the team’s blessing.

      Jackson mentioned at the end of last season that KP needed to get stronger and work on his post game. His brother talked last summer about how KP had more SF skills and wanted to work on his ball skills. Longstaff was with him in Latvia, but KP didn’t work on what the team president wanted him to.

      KP’s body and game right now is basically like Durant’s, except that Durant is obviously amazing off the dribble. If you know his ball handling is not up to snuff, and you know that he’s not great posting up even guys that are 7 inches shorter than him, then tell him NOT TO DO IT. KP is clearly best off limiting his offense to PNP and spot-up 3’s, basket cuts, and running him off screens.

      I disagree. I think part of his development involves doing things he’s not good at in game. I don’t want him to limit himself. If he wants to become a great offensive player he needs to be more than a super Channing Frye. He wasn’t good in shot creation. I’m fine with that, but he needs to get better at it and it falls on him.

    18. wetbandit

      Yes, it is criminal how KP is not being used in a pick and pop for over 6 3’s per game. Imagine the driving lanes, the high-value shooting, the efficiency….

    19. Philmelo

      On defense, he has a 5% block rate even though he spends most of his time chasing stretch 4’s around the perimeter. WtF is that. Per B-R, he played even less center this year than he did last year. Yes, he needs to concentrate more on rebounding the ball. But asking him to guard 4’s all the time is just compounding the problem. You put him at risk for fouls. You take him away from the basket, where he is by far the Knicks’ best rim protector (and also take away his greatest ability).

      This is the best argument for drafting Isaac over Fox/Monk/Smith/Ntilikina as I’ve seen on this blog.

    20. stratomatic

      @Frank

      “If you know his ball handling is not up to snuff, and you know that he’s not great posting up even guys that are 7 inches shorter than him, then tell him NOT TO DO IT. KP is clearly best off limiting his offense to PNP and spot-up 3’s, basket cuts, and running him off screens. ”

      Your assumption is that the Knicks are too stupid to see this.

      Another possibility is that they are working on these new skills in practice, don’t care about his stats right now because the team stinks, and are challenging him to try to work these things into his game now so they are more developed later when it might count.

    21. lavor postell

      Agree, but he’s 21. You’re acting like he’s showing his true colors and can’t be trusted. He just needs to be taught not to brood and to express himself better.

      I literally said we’d be stupid to trade him. I think most of what’s happened with him this summer is him taking his brother’s advice without question, but it is primadonn-like. He’s 21. He’ll mature in various ways on and off the court. I’m not really that worried about it.

      Re: KP’s 3 point attempts — Steph Curry is a much better shooter of course, but he AVERAGES ~11 3PA’s per 40. I wasted enough of my life watching the Knicks last year to know that KP could easily have put up 8-9 3’s per 40 and have them all be open or wide-open and in the flow of the offense (as opposed to just hunting 3’s). Some of it was Derrick Rose just not passing him the ball, but a lot of it was KP obviously having an internal struggle about whether to shoot it or not. Even if KP shoots only 36%, having a 7 footer who can shoot it like that completely compromises the defense so that other stuff can happen.

      Porzingis finished 10th in catch and shoot 3’s attempted per game among all forwards that played at least 10 MPG. He wasn’t lacking for catch and shoot 3’s relative to his position around the league. Most of the players ahead of him are strict role players, can create off the dribble or play with Lebron or Harden. Those players in order are Love, RyNo, Ariza, Covington, George, C.J. Miles, Wes Matthews, Mirotic and Swaggy P.

    22. Frank

      Agree that he needs to work on his weaknesses as part of his development, but do you want him doing that stuff in games rather than in practice?

      One thing I’ll say for KP – his ball handling was clearly better in 16-17 than it was in 15-16. The kid works and works hard. I agree that he needs to be able to abuse the switch. I think he’ll come back with a couple pet moves in the post, and hopefully he works with Dirk on how to unleash the Dirk-stepback more.

    23. lavor postell

      On defense, he has a 5% block rate even though he spends most of his time chasing stretch 4’s around the perimeter. WtF is that. Per B-R, he played even less center this year than he did last year. Yes, he needs to concentrate more on rebounding the ball. But asking him to guard 4’s all the time is just compounding the problem. You put him at risk for fouls. You take him away from the basket, where he is by far the Knicks’ best rim protector (and also take away his greatest ability).

      All that tells me is KP’s a good shot blocker. We all know that blocking shots isn’t an indication of good defense. His defense at the 4 last year when put into PNR was bad and exposed his garbage rebounding even more. More importantly his body hasn’t been able to sustain itself over an 82 game season playing at the 4. Why would it be better for him to play 100% of his minutes at the 5 currently when that’s a more rigorous and demanding position physically?

      His body isn’t even close to ready for that yet. He gets minutes most every night at the 5 and we often closed games with him there. He doesn’t need to play the 5 full time to develop there. LMA is showing that right now and he played virtually all of his formative years at the 4. KP can, does and should continue to swing minutes between both the 4 and 5.

    24. stratomatic

      I went on some negative rants about KP’s slide last year, but it was mostly because I probably had some unrealistic expectations after such a hot start. He’s the least of our problems, immaturity or not. If we are arguing about KP, WE have a problem. IMO, there’s no way we are or should be considering trading him unless someone out there makes an insane offer (which is not going to happen anyway).

    25. lavor postell

      Agree that he needs to work on his weaknesses as part of his development, but do you want him doing that stuff in games rather than in practice?

      One thing I’ll say for KP – his ball handling was clearly better in 16-17 than it was in 15-16. The kid works and works hard. I agree that he needs to be able to abuse the switch. I think he’ll come back with a couple pet moves in the post, and hopefully he works with Dirk on how to unleash the Dirk-stepback more.

      I want him doing it in both practice and games. I’m more concerned about his development than maximizing our winning odds right now. I think most people on this board want rid of Melo and Rose. In that scenario you’re essentially agreeing that he needs to be thrust into a more highlighted offensive role which will come with much more duties as a shot creator.

      And I agree his ball handling got significantly better. I just don’t want my 7’3″ unicorn’s signature move to be a right to left crossover pull up jumper from the mid post. I also agree with you that his post game will come in time and he’ll be able to dominate switches. In fact I’d go so far as to say he got much better at establishing and holding post position later in the season and that much of his issues at that point were just making the right choice as far as shot selection i.e. taking a bank shot over his right shoulder instead of turning middle over his left shoulder for a more straightforward jumper.

      I went on some negative rants about KP’s slide last year, but it was mostly because I probably had some unrealistic expectations after such a hot start. He’s the least of our problems, immaturity or not. If we are arguing about KP, WE have a problem. IMO, there’s no way we are or should be considering trading him unless someone out there makes an insane offer (which is not going to happen anyway).

      I agree my rant sounds like I’m super down on him, but I’m really not. I just don’t like that all of his struggles get blamed on somebody else within the organization.

    26. stratomatic

      KP can, does and should continue to swing minutes between both the 4 and 5.

      IMO the Knicks are handling it correctly.

      It should be a match up thing. Against some teams/players he’s better off at the 5 and against others he’s better off at the 4. He’s a kind of tweener right now. The bigger problem is getting him and Willy on the court together. It’s hard to get both those match ups right. Willy’s defense leaves a lot to be desired at times also. So if they both have a tough matchup it’s a disaster.

    27. Frank

      Porzingis finished 10th in catch and shoot 3’s attempted per game among all forwards that played at least 10 MPG.

      Another way to look at it is that KP was 87th in the league in terms of 3’s attempted per 36. He was 38th among front court players. I’m not saying that he didn’t shoot a lot of 3’s. I’m saying that he should’ve shot a lot more.

      I’m also not saying that KP is blameless for his relative lack of development last year. The environment was bad, but he also threw up a bunch of garbage on offense that wasn’t necessarily the coaching staff’s fault. But remember that most people thought KP would require 3-4 years or more to reach his potential. To trade him now when he’s already shown so much would be franchise malpractice.

    28. lavor postell

      Another way to look at it is that KP was 87th in the league in terms of 3’s attempted per 36. He was 38th among front court players. I’m not saying that he didn’t shoot a lot of 3’s. I’m saying that he should’ve shot a lot more.

      I’m also not saying that KP is blameless for his relative lack of development last year. The environment was bad, but he also threw up a bunch of garbage on offense that wasn’t necessarily the coaching staff’s fault. But remember that most people thought KP would require 3-4 years or more to reach his potential. To trade him now when he’s already shown so much would be franchise malpractice.

      Frank how do you sort by per 36? Great numbers, thanks.

      And yes I agree. The Knicks’ own internal dysfunction and confusion didn’t help the cause, nor did playing with Rose or Melo doing his best 2011/12 pre-MDA getting fired impression.

      Also agree that we’d be stupid to trade him now and that his 3rd year was always the time I expected him to take a major leap. His start to last season heightened expectations and made the ultimate end product of his season seem more disappointing than it really was.

    29. Accidentank 2017

      KP is 2 more rebounds and two less fouls from being an all star. And he’s like 2 more FGM away from being elite on top of the previously mentioned important.

      Trading a player like that, before he turns 22, is a bad idea. KP will be fine. Let Dennis Smith Jr fall to us at 8. You’ll see how KP benefits from having that kid on our roster.

    30. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Put literally almost anyone other than Derrick Rose and Melo on the court with KP and he’ll thrive (at least comparatively)

      Fuck, put me on the court and I’ll do a better job distributing than Rose did.

    31. Frank

      @lavor – I just went to B-R, created my search (2016-17 season, eligible for minutes played leaderboard, added 3PA/36 (or per 100 posts) as a criteria. then on the search results, all of them are sortable – just click on 3PA and it’ll sort them for you…

    32. DS

      The problem is we’re depending on KP to carry the franchise and that’s a very high bar… Fultz has the looks of an 18 year-old John Wall or Kyrie. That plus a #8 pick even if it Malik friggin’ Monk is a better starting point to a rebuild than KP and Dennis Smith (if we’re lucky) and more likely Frank Ntilkina.

    33. swiftandabundant

      @ 37 – why is that a better starting point? Because you said so? Because its the number one pick from this year and the 8th pick as opposed to the 4th pick from 2 years ago (who is a somewhat known commodity at this point) and the same 8th pick? Because its 2 guards?

      Why is Fultz is a better building block than KP? You have no idea if Fultz is actually going to be a decent. We know KP all ready is.

      Also, I know this is a business but Willie H and KP are TIGHT and that friendship is very important especially since we will most likely be losing games next year. Trade KP and Willie H might become disenchanted with being on the Knicks.

    34. djphan

      KP shooting more 3s was the main reason why his game stagnated…. his FTR rate went down even tho his 2P fg% went up… he needs more attempts inside the paint and draw fouls… shooting more 3s is only good for players who have limited abilities inside the paint… getting to the line is still the most reliable and efficient way to get points…

      if he brings up his FTR and improves his rebounding he’s going to be a really good player… but if he continues to jack up more and more 3s… he’s going to be a 7ft 3 bargnani…

    35. lavor postell

      @Frank – Thanks. I thought you were able to search per 36 on just catch and shoot 3’s on NBA.com/stats so that’s why I was curious.

    36. lavor postell

      If we can grab a good starting caliber guard/wing to pair with KP and Willy moving forward in this draft I’d be pretty satisfied with our foundation.

    37. Frank

      I’d love to somehow pick up a late first or earlier 2nd.

      As of now I would love a draft that looks like this:

      #8 -> Frank Ntilikina or Isaac
      #early 30s ->Derrick White – 6’4″ combo guard, seems right up Phil’s alley, or Caleb Swanigan
      #44 –> Frank Mason Jr
      #57 –> Wesley Iwundu

      Basically the Knicks just need more Franks. Heck I’ll even sign up for Frank Jackson

    38. DS

      why is that a better starting point? Because you said so? Because its the number one pick from this year and the 8th pick as opposed to the 4th pick from 2 years ago (who is a somewhat known commodity at this point) and the same 8th pick? Because its 2 guards?

      Yes, because I said so… seriously, though: I wouldn’t think it would be too greedy to expect Monk and Fultz as good as Lillard/McCollum,Wall/Beal, even Harden/Gordon. From there, it would be relatively easy to some role players, shooters. I love KP but I have very deep concerns about his ability to develop into a superstar in his current environment. Maybe I’m selling too low.

    39. swiftandabundant

      I’m fine with Monk. This site goes on and on about how the 3 point shot is the best/most efficient shot to take when its a good 3 point shooter and then turns around and doesn’t want Monk who will easily be a great 3 point shooter in the pros right out of the gate.

      But in one scenario we end up with Fultz and Monk who would compliment each other well and in your other scenario we only get Frank or Smith. I don’t know why trading KP for Fultz would change the outcome of our 8th pick.

    40. DS

      If we can grab a good starting caliber guard/wing to pair with KP and Willy moving forward in this draft I’d be pretty satisfied with our foundation.

      If we started Dennis Smith, Courtney Lee, ‘Melo, O’Quinn/KP, KP/Willy opening night, I think I wouldn’t throw up. We’re not asking for a lot, here.

    41. DS

      I’m fine with Monk. This site goes on and on about how the 3 point shot is the best/most efficient shot to take when its a good 3 point shooter and then turns around and doesn’t want Monk who will easily be a great 3 point shooter in the pros right out of the gate.

      I have had this exact thought, but I think that people are worried about his D.

      But in one scenario we end up with Fultz and Monk who would compliment each other well and in your other scenario we only get Frank or Smith. I don’t know why trading KP for Fultz would change the outcome of our 8th pick.

      If we traded KP for Fultz, we would no longer need to target a PG at #8.

      FWIW, ESPN’s 5-on-5 also talked about the #1 pick for KP. Kevin Pelton and Ford both supported the notion that Phil Jackson would hang up if Ainge proposed it. Ford goes as far as saying: “Maybe a combination of the No. 1 pick plus another asset for Boston would do the trick.”

    42. swiftandabundant

      I would want the number one pick plus a prospect or another pick. That might seem greedy but KP IS a known commodity at this point. His floor is all ready a very good NBA player. Fultz is far from a sure thing. You’re trading a known commodity who still has a lot of room to grow but is all ready good for an unknown. So I ask for something else in return as well.

    43. Cock Jowles, A Proven Scorer Who Is Worth All of His Max Contract

      I’m in my early 40s now and I feel exactly the same way. There’s something visceral that makes it hard for me to think of anyone the same way I feel about Jordan. But Lebron is right there. The guy truly is the size of Karl Malone, has the vision/passing of Magic Johnson, and has the athleticism of Jordan.

      There’s nothing wrong with insisting that Jordan was GOAT. With the exception of 1995, his postseasons were overwhelmingly dominant. He almost never had a bad game on the offensive side of the ball, and his defense is touted as that of an all-timer at SG. This is a guy putting up .602 TS on 35% USG for an entire postseason (Finals win) with almost zero three-point attempts in the mid-90s, when I believe the league average was in the low .500s. In the playoffs! Plus six rings, the MVPs, the All-Defense Teams, and most importantly, the icon of an entire generation of basketball that is so ubiquitous (especially out here near Beaverton) that young people often forget how exciting and fun 80s basketball was. I was young when Jordan was dominant, and it’s taken a lot of self-restraint and reflection to see LeBron as a worthy successor to the crown.

      I do think that LeBron will end up the GOAT, if he’s not already (he should have 6 MVPs). The best way to secure his legacy would be to join up with Pop and spend 34-40 anchoring whatever 60-win team Pop puts together in his final seasons. Will that happen? Probably not, but I’m already dreading the anti arguments on the day he retires.

    44. Philmelo

      Maybe I’m selling too low.

      Not maybe, definitely. I am glad this line of thinking does not pervade our FO. For all of his faults, Phil seems to understand the potential ceiling he has with KP. And right now, this team should be all about ceiling because it is a light year’s distance away from contention.

    45. DS

      Not maybe, definitely. I am glad this line of thinking does not pervade our FO. For all of his faults, Phil seems to understand the potential ceiling he has with KP. And right now, this team should be all about ceiling because it is a light year’s distance away from contention.

      But I’m talking in the context of KP vs. Fultz. For me, it comes down to KP being dependent on a system and players that will allow him to succeed; something I have little/no faith in the Knicks providing. Fultz could at least have the steering wheel.

    46. Philmelo

      Lebron is a fucking HGH case. No one talks about it but its the truth when you explore the circumstances surrounding his “Paleo diet” at a time when the NBA began its HGH testing protocols. But aside from this fact, its just ridiculous to compare this watered down era of basketball to the period when Jordan played. His dominant career was book-ended by appearances in all-star games with Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Tim Duncan – and he was the best NBA player in that time period.

    47. d-mar

      If Phil were a smart negotiator (and he’s not, see Melo NTC, Noah contract) he would just keep telling Ainge “not interested” in any trades involving KP. And Ainge probably moves on. Or maybe they’re so desperate for a big man he sweetens the pot.

      Either way, Phil holds all the cards and should act that way

    48. Philmelo

      But I’m talking in the context of KP vs. Fultz. For me, it comes down to KP being dependent on a system and players to get him the ball; things I have little/no faith in the Knicks providing. Fultz would at least have the steering wheel.

      Why do people assume Fultz is such a sure bet? I don’t understand. And since when was a 7’3 player with a 3 point shot and a competent handle system dependent?

    49. er

      its just ridiculous to compare this watered down era of basketball to the period when Jordan played. His dominant career was book-ended by appearances in all-star games with Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Tim Duncan – and he was the best NBA player in that time period.

      Awww Man, Hate Hate Hate Hate

    50. Philmelo

      I mean, people here do realize KP was younger last season than Patrick Ewing in his first year as a Knick? Why people want to give up this kid now is beyond me.

    51. DS

      Why do people assume Fultz is such a sure bet? I don’t understand. And since when was a 7’3 player with a 3 point shot and a competent handle system dependent?

      Name a point guard who was drafted first overall in the past 60 years and didn’t have at least an All-Star appearance. If you said John Lucas, then you named THE ONLY ONE… I love the uniqueness of KP but he needs players around him more than a good point guard does.

    52. swiftandabundant

      @ 54 – ER – Jordan’s second 3peat was right after the expansion. If anything the league was more watered down during that era of his second 3peat bc those new teams had no good players and the Euro influence hadn’t added to the talent pool. At the time when the Bulls won 72 games everyone was commenting on how it was only bc of expansion (that was the first year of expansion).

    53. bidiong

      Just to add something about KP being weak… I bet he needs to eat like 7,000 calories a day to add weight if not more when he is working out and conditioning. It’s hard to add bulk when you’re 7’3. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s eating 7-9 meals a day. It’s not as simple as just hitting the gym. Just something to keep in mind.

    54. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      I’m seeing Rubio and possibly Reddick in our future. Add Ntilikina and a tough guy like PJ Tucker. Throw in two quality 2nd rounders and we’ll be great.

    55. Cock Jowles, A Proven Scorer Who Is Worth All of His Max Contract

      I mean, people here do realize KP was younger last season than Patrick Ewing in his first year as a Knick? Why people want to give up this kid now is beyond me.

      The most important thing is that after the 2018-19 season, he will be offered a max contract by some team out there, and the Knicks will have to match to keep him.

      If he hasn’t shown he can be better than a league-average player, what do you do? Do you extend and hope he pulls a Gordon Hayward and starts playing like an All-Star after he’s got the money? Or what if he does like Bargnani and hovers below his “talent ceiling” for the rest of his career?

      I mean, he’s not anywhere close to Bargnani’s level of terrible, but you could end up paying him $25M a year to be average. That’s not good team management. The problem isn’t now; it’s two years from now.

      Just to add something about KP being weak… I bet he needs to eat like 7,000 calories a day to add weight if not more when he is working out and conditioning.

      I don’t see why you’d want a 7’3″ guy to get heavier. Jumping high is more important than banging bodies in today’s NBA. McGee and Zaza are basically the only players on the Warriors who bang bodies. Motion offenses don’t require heavy contact inside.

    56. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      Oh and KP looked terrific in his last few games. I’m expecting big things from him this year as he becomes the man.

    57. Philmelo

      Name a point guard who was drafted first overall in the past 60 years and didn’t have at least an All-Star appearance. If you said John Lucas, then you named THE ONLY ONE.

      So now we are using All-Star appearances as the criteria for developing this team? I guess we should keep Melo then since he’s guaranteed to be an All-Star next season chucking 20+ plus shots. All-Star appearances don’t tell us shit. Derrick Rose has three in his career and as far as I see the only time he’s ever been above average player according to WS/48 is for 120 games in his career.

    58. lavor postell

      @56

      You can also find guard talent outside of the 1st pick in the draft. You’re not finding a 7’3″ guy with range out to 28 feet with the potential to become a defensive stopper anywhere in this draft or 99.9% of drafts. Fultz is going to be a star for sure imo, but KP’s potential is more than worth holding onto and betting on.

      The guy we saw at the start of the year had an All-Star impact before tailing off and that’s without really having the ability to shot create. KP also has the knock on effect that the way he bends a defense makes life much easier for guards because of the difficulty in defending any pick and pop or PNR action with him. Hell, just having him stand in the corner helps out perimeter players because of the spacing.

      Keep KP, work with him on his weaknesses and build a team around him to complement his strengths and mitigate his weaknesses. This is how any normal team would and should operate. The Knicks should try it for once.

    59. Philmelo

      If he hasn’t shown he can be better than a league-average player, what do you do? Do you extend and hope he pulls a Gordon Hayward and starts playing like an All-Star after he’s got the money? Or what if he does like Bargnani and hovers below his “talent ceiling” for the rest of his career?

      This is waaaaay to soon to have that discussion. This team hasn’t even begun to build around him and we’re entertaining scenarios about whether he will be a franchise stud by 26?

    60. DS

      So now we are using All-Star appearances as the criteria for developing this team? I guess we should keep Melo then since he’s guaranteed to be an All-Star next season chucking 20+ plus shots. All-Star appearances don’t tell us shit. Derrick Rose has three in his career and as far as I see the only time he’s ever been above average player according to WS/48 is for 120 games in his career.

      No, All-Star selections are not perfectly correlated with quality of a player, but Wikipedia doesn’t have win shares.
      Look up the names: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_first_overall_NBA_draft_picks

      Rose was pretty clearly impacted by his injury.

    61. DRed

      Its way too soon to give up on kristaps, but we shouldn’t be trying to build the team around him either. We should be trying to get some good basketball players

    62. JK47

      I don’t know about adding weight, but KP’s core strength seems to be pretty sorely lacking. Marcus Smart shouldn’t be able to guard him effectively.

    63. swiftandabundant

      @ 61 – Jowles but with that logic then you draft and any player who isn’t good in their second or third year you should trade. How do you build a team that way?

    64. Philmelo

      Look up the names: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_first_overall_NBA_draft_picks

      This tells us little beyond the fact this generation’s crop of top rated guards coming out of college don’t really compare to those of the past generation. Here are the career WS/48 for the last three chosen #1 overall.

      Rose .101
      Wall .108
      Irving .149

      Before then its Iverson, which is a completely different era but just for kicks his career WS/48 was .128 – hardly something to write home about.

    65. swiftandabundant

      I also think trading KP is a dumb idea bc of his unique qualities as a player. 7’3″ who can run the floor and shoot 3s…that’s very hard to find. Even if he’s not a superstar but just improves gradually the next 3 or 4 years he’s still gonna be a unique player that will be hard to find another like him in the draft. Finding someone under 6’5″ who is a guard is WAY easier to do in the draft.

    66. geo

      you all are hot today :-)

      kp’s fine – the problem is our management, chemistry and toxic environment (again management)…

      it’s one thing to not be successful on the court – but, when you also fail off the court….that’s a whole other situation…

    67. Jack Bauer

      I’m warming up to the idea of drafting Dennis Smith Jr., they need a point guard badly and he wouldn’t be a terrible pick at 8 from what I’ve seen. Accordingly he will be picked #7 and the Knicks will be left empty handed Yet Again

    68. swiftandabundant

      I would be fine with Reddick IF its a sign and trade as part of a Melo deal to the Clippers. Does he fit the timeline for KP and Willie and our draft pick? No. But we’re gonna need some veteran leadership next year cause we’re most likely not going to be good. Also, if we’re trading Lee (who might be going with Melo in a clippers deal) we’re gonna need an SG. I don’t want the team completely devoid of veterans.

      So I think its fine. If we’re signing him outright and Melo is still here? Um pass.

    69. Jack Bauer

      No to Reddick, if you saw him in this year’s playoffs he was mostly awful. Most games he had little or no impact on offense and got absolutely torched on defense, see Utah Jazz series

    70. Frank

      NONONONO to Redick unless it’s just to facilitate the Melo trade and then trade Redick elsewhere. It’s literally the most nonsensical thing we could do otherwise. He’s a good player, but completely wasted on this team.

    71. thenoblefacehumper

      Phil Jackson’s go-to move since he got here has been to overpay veterans who don’t fit into any kind of larger plan. I see no reason to think he’ll stop doing so now. It’s true that he now seems to grasp that Melo was a mistake, but it’s likely he thinks the team will actually be better without him. Hell, he’s probably right about that, but that doesn’t mean he’s picked up any of the necessary lessons about the win curve, opportunity cost, etc. He probably thinks this team is one Carmelo Anthony trade away from being able to fulfill his vision.

      So yeah, I’m sure JJ Redick will be a Knick next year (and at least two years after that). We’ll win 30-35 games again, pick in the 8-10 range again, and so on and so forth.

      Two more years of this shit.

    72. nicos

      KP’s height is something of a macguffin- the fact that he’s 7’3″ with a crossover is meaningless if that crossover just leads to crappy 15 foot bank shots. If he can’t get strong enough to take advantage of his height in the post and on the boards then it’s largely moot. Yes, it’s cool to see a guy his height move the way he does but if it’s not leading to actual production it’s mostly meaningless. Serge Ibaka hits threes and blocks shots (and played much better defense in his prime) would you have not traded prime Ibaka for a #1 pick like Fultz or for 5 and 10 in a very good draft? Bottom line- if you believe KP can get strong enough to take advantage of his height you keep him unless you’re absolutely blown away. If not- and the list of tall skinny guys who never really get strong enough to dominate is long- then I think you’d have to consider trading him for #1 or 5 and 10 if either of those is actually on the table.

    73. DS

      This tells us little beyond the fact this generation’s crop of top rated guards coming out of college don’t really compare to those of the past generation. Here are the career WS/48 for the last three chosen #1 overall.

      Rose .101
      Wall .108
      Irving .149

      Before then its Iverson, which is a completely different era but just for kicks his career WS/48 was .128 – hardly something to write home about.

      I thought no one likes WS/48 anymore; Iverson was more of a 2-guard (if we are counting players that played point in their rookie year then we get to include LeBron); Rose was excellent by any measure, including WS/48, before his injury; Wall has steadily improved; and Irving’s numbers are just fine.

    74. 2FOR18

      For those of who don’t mind drafting Monk because he’s a sure fire 3 point bomber, I implore you to look deeper. He shot at a rate 3 percentage points higher than Smith Jr., and that was propped up by 1 big month where he shot 47%, which in turn was propped up significantly by 1 monster national TV game.
      When you look at his monthly splits and take into account he was known more for his athletic ability than his shooting coming into college, we have to pump the brakes on his narrative.
      If they draft Monk over Smith Jr, Collins or Frank I will riot.

    75. swiftandabundant

      @ 83 – you’ll riot? Even before he plays a single NBA game? You’ll riot bc we drafted a consensus top 8 draft pick with the 8th pick?

      I get having your favorites but these types of thoughts are just silly. For all we know Monk is the next Reggie Miller and Fultz will be a bust. You cannot predict with ANY accuracy how a 19 year old prospect will turn out in the NBA. Monk has as good of a chance as any of the top picks of being good, average or bad.

    76. djphan

      the love for monk is particularly concerning… how we go from speaking about defense and lack of athletic ability to now prizing an undersized sg who can shoot but that’s about it…

      ntilikina.. i hate.. but i can understand them falling in love with the tools… and he at least plays defense…

    77. Brian Cronin

      the love for monk is particularly concerning… how we go from speaking about defense and lack of athletic ability to now prizing an undersized sg who can shoot but that’s about it…

      Man, we have to hope someone grabs him before the Knicks, because if he is still there at #8, the odds have to be good that he’ll be the pick. Ugh.

      I think Smith is gone before #8, but hopefully it is Monk who is gone and not Smith (and I don’t even particularly like Smith, but he’s a better prospect than Monk, at least).

    78. wetbandit

      Picks 3-10 are the most interchangeable I remember. There are so many smart people who are very vocal and adamant about their completely different ranks- I mean, how do we rank this:

      – Fox: Incredibly fast, good passer, great defender; does not have a good jumpshot or 3
      – Josh Jackson: Great two-way aggressive Kobe-esque “motherfucker”; but is he as good as these other guys
      – Tatum: well-rounded offensive player, good defense, can ‘create;’ Melo?
      – Monk: best shooter in the draft, Curry-lite; inconsistent, below-average D
      – Isaac: DPOY potential, efficient scorer; inconsistent, can’t dribble/pass well, raw
      – Dennis Smith Jr: Most athletic, Isaiah-esque, best scorer; Um, literally Rose?
      – Ntilikina: Tall elite defending PG with great passing skill and efficient scoring; Raw, can’t penetrate, too low sample size
      – Markannen: Can be the best shooting big in the NBA; horrible defense in a tall skinny dude, so can’t play him

      And so on and so on…

      I feel like every team will have vastly different rank lists, and someone that someone thinks should go #3 will fall to us, and who the f knows if he’s good? (FWIW I think ours should be Fultz>Ball>Jackson>Fox>Isaac>Ntilikina>(here I give up and cry)>Tatum>Monk>Smith>Collins>OG. Note: although we very very desperately need a PG, we really only have a future center, so BPA is the way to go)

    79. Brian Cronin

      The fascinating thing about the draft is #3. Jackson is the consensus 3rd pick, but does he really make sense in Philly? I don’t think so, so I suspect that they might trade down, even if it is simply swapping with the Suns for an additional asset (as Jackson fits on the Suns perfectly). Colangelo said a dumb thing the other day that made me feel somewhat good to know that other teams are also being run by out of touch guys, as well (it was something along the lines of “If we got two picks in this year’s draft, we would do a traditional rebuild, but if we get only one pick, we’ll be more aggressive in signing veterans to win now” – HUH?!?).

    80. lavor postell

      I’ll be surprised if we don’t take Ntilikina at 8 unless Isaac, Fox or Tatum drop that far, all of which seem unrealistic.

    81. 2FOR18

      @84 I have one thing to say about “the consensus”, but since this is a family site, I won’t.

    82. Hubert

      I’m fine with Monk.

      Yeah, it’s been pretty amusing watching people fret over us taking a guy who is extremely unlikely to fall to us. I wouldn’t want Monk if I was picking 3rd. But at 8? I’d be thrilled if he falls to us.

    83. wetbandit

      There’s only 5 picks between Ball and our #8. So if we would be happy with Jackson, Fox, Frank, Isaac, or Tatum, then if someone picked Smith, Monk, Markannen (lots of people are high on him), or others like Collins we’re good.

    84. Brian Cronin

      I’ll be surprised if we don’t take Ntilikina at 8 unless Isaac, Fox or Tatum drop that far, all of which seem unrealistic.

      I’m fine with Ntilikina, but it’s really interesting to figure out just who will be taken in the draft before #8.

      We know Fultz and Ball are gone #1 and 2.

      So that leaves:

      Philly #3
      Phoenix #4
      Sacto #5
      Orlando #6
      Minnesota #7

      You know Tatum and Jackson are going to be gone to two of those five teams.

      So that leave Fox, Smith, Isaac, Monk and Ntilikina. Which two make it to #8? I think it will be Monk and Ntilikina, but I could see it being Smith and Ntilikina. Isaac is also a possibility if Minnesota is thinking guard. We all think Isaac makes the most sense there, but maybe they want a guard.

    85. thenoblefacehumper

      Monk has as good of a chance as any of the top picks of being good, average or bad.

      Monk is a different player with a different statistical profile than the other top picks. We’re not drawing names out of a hat here. The draft is definitely a crapshoot in many ways but there are some things we know, and one of them is that players with similar college profiles to Monk have overwhelmingly not become good NBA players.

    86. Frank

      I think there’s a really good chance Philly takes Monk at #3 so we may be “rescued” from ourselves.

      I for one would not be upset if we got Monk. People compare him to Lou Williams and Jamal Crawford, and IMHO that’s just nuts. He is a MUCH better shooter than either of those two, and we would certainly feel differently about Lou Williams and Jamal Crawford if they had a career TS of 59 on a usage of 24 like Monk had at Kentucky. But yes, I agree that he would not be my first choice, and I’d much rather we draft Ntilikina, Smith, or Isaac instead.

    87. Brian Cronin

      I don’t think they’d take Monk at #3, but I think there’s a chance that they would take Monk at #4 or #5 after dealing their pick. I don’t see any team passing on Jackson, even if only to deal him.

    88. er

      Watch Monk become a great PG in the league. Lol the criticism here is borderline fanatical

    89. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      “Picks 3-10 are the most interchangeable I remember. There are so many smart people who are very vocal and adamant about their completely different ranks- I mean, how do we rank this:

      – Fox: Incredibly fast, good passer, great defender; does not have a good jumpshot or 3
      – Josh Jackson: Great two-way aggressive Kobe-esque “motherfucker”; but is he as good as these other guys
      – Tatum: well-rounded offensive player, good defense, can ‘create;’ Melo?
      – Monk: best shooter in the draft, Curry-lite; inconsistent, below-average D
      – Isaac: DPOY potential, efficient scorer; inconsistent, can’t dribble/pass well, raw
      – Dennis Smith Jr: Most athletic, Isaiah-esque, best scorer; Um, literally Rose?
      – Ntilikina: Tall elite defending PG with great passing skill and efficient scoring; Raw, can’t penetrate, too low sample size
      – Markannen: Can be the best shooting big in the NBA; horrible defense in a tall skinny dude, so can’t play him

      And so on and so on…”

      And why not Diallo? Who on that list has more upside than he does?

    90. english_knick

      This trade KP stuff is driving me wild. I’ve said it before here and I’ll say it again- this is EXACTLY why people think NY fans won’t stomach a rebuild. Everyone here says they are up for rebuilding but what they mean is ‘as long as we get a lebron-alike who makes us a contender straightaway’.

      To the person who said KP is ‘league average’… by PER, which most people accept is an offence-heavy measure, he is better than average. And by opponent fg at the rim, he is better than average. And he’s TWENTY-TWO!! That average includes everyone in the league, which is mostly guys who have carved out multi year careers. So by what measure are you saying he is average?!

      Sure. If a RIDICUOLOUS offer – multiple firsts and players – comes in you maybe consider it. But it has to be a huge offer to even consider it…

    91. Accidentank 2017

      I don’t see anybody taking my boy Hami before Milwaukee, and I don’t see Hami getting passed Milwaukee. I think we should trade back into the 1st round for one of Portland’s picks and grab Hamidou Diallo there to pair with Dennis Smith. Hamidou Diallo and Dennis Smith Jr would give us a lockdown back court and probably the most athletic back court in basketball. I really hope Hami decides to forego the draft this year and play a year at Kentucky. He’s the perfect wing for us.

      There has to be a way we can get into the mid teens in this draft.

    92. Philmelo

      Serge Ibaka hits threes and blocks shots (and played much better defense in his prime) would you have not traded prime Ibaka for a #1 pick like Fultz or for 5 and 10 in a very good draft?

      Jesus, so now KP’s ceiling is a prime Ibaka? LOL. Please, just stop.

    93. Philmelo

      I thought no one likes WS/48 anymore;

      And yet All-Star appearances are the golden standard of talent valuation. You brought up win shares in the previous post. I presented it.

      Iverson was more of a 2-guard (if we are counting players that played point in their rookie year then we get to include LeBron); Rose was excellent by any measure, including WS/48, before his injury; Wall has steadily improved; and Irving’s numbers are just fine.

      I am presenting the last four guards chosen first overall in the NBA draft – a criteria you insisted upon in your two previous posts. I mean, after that we’re looking at Magic Johnson in the 1979 draft. If you look at their combined WS/48 its not so hot.

    94. Philmelo

      This trade KP stuff is driving me wild. I’ve said it before here and I’ll say it again- this is EXACTLY why people think NY fans won’t stomach a rebuild. Everyone here says they are up for rebuilding but what they mean is ‘as long as we get a lebron-alike who makes us a contender straightaway’.

      Amen. These are the same fans who complain about the erratic, piecemeal and short-sighted decision making of our front office and yet turn around to argue with straight faces that they want to trade our 21-22 year old Euro big who was the franchise’s first top five pick in the past 28 years because he’s “average” at this point in his career. I mean, wow. You can’t make this shit up.

    95. djphan

      Its more like picks 2-8 are pretty interchangeable… and they are all excellent…

      I just hope we are prepared for the situation where someone you might not expect falls to 8… like tatum or smith… and that we dont pick them because we have a hardon for an inferior prospect or we didnt work them out…

      That frightens me because of all the trey lyles and kaminsky rumors in the 15 draft… and that scenario is a lot more likely since we are in a precarious spot in the draft…

    96. 2FOR18

      best shooter in college Malik Monk last season: 20 pts on 15 shots/2.5/2.5/.9 stls/.450/.397 on 7 per game/.822/.586 TS%

      Bryce Alford last season: 15.5 on 11 shots/2.5/2.5/.5/11 shots/.447/.430 on 9 per game/.821/.630 TS%

      Dennis Smith Jr.: 18 on 13 shots/6.2/4.6/1.9 stls/.455/.359 on 5 per/.715/.563 TS%

      Isaac: 12.0 on 8 shots/7.8/1.2/1.2 stls/1.5 blks/.508/.348 on 3/.780/.614 ts%

      So yes, I will riot if we draft Monk over Smith, Fox, Frank or Isaac

    97. JK47

      I don’t want Malik Monk because I’ve already had my lifetime fill of watching one-dimensional scorers who bring nothing else to the table. This guy screams “one dimensional scorer” in big flashing neon lights.

    98. Will the Thrill

      Like what 2For18 said, Malik Monk was a very streaky shooter and his shooting stats were inflated by his great “on fire” games. He struggled in almost all of February and March, while he was incredible in December and January. Which one is the true Malik Monk? Who knows. I don’t think he is as great of a shooter as people have described him as. Also, expecting him to morph into a successful point guard is hopeful to say the least, and there is almost no evidence that this is likely to happen.

    99. nicos

      Jesus, so now KP’s ceiling is a prime Ibaka? LOL. Please, just stop.

      If he doesn’t get stronger then yes. My point was that you can’t get blinded by his height- we know he can block shots and hit threes but if he can’t do the other things that you expect a 7’3″ guy to do like dominate the glass and play in the post then he’s not any better than a lot of other guys. Like I said- if you believe that he can get strong enough to do those things then you don’t trade him unless you get absolutely blown away. If he doesn’t get stronger then his ceiling is someone like Ibaka (who was certainly better than KP is right now in his prime) and if that’s the case you’d have to at least listen to offers. There are plenty of tall, skinny guys who were never able to build up enough strength to take advantage of their height. KP has gotten off to great starts in each season and then seemed really worn down as the season progressed- that needs to change. He’s still really young so his ceiling is still higher than Ibaka but it’s no where near clear that he’s going to get there.

    100. Will the Thrill

      Monk was definitely not the best shooter in college basketball last season. There were multiple players that objectively shot better than him. He may have been the best in spurts, but not over the course of the entire season.

    101. english_knick

      I’ve been in the ‘not Monk or Tatum’ camp for a while. But I’m wavering. ESPN’s advanced stats guys have Monk as the 3rd best prospect in the draft and with the lowest bust %. In a quick survey of the top mock drafts (which I’ll post in more depth later) 8th is his low water mark and his average position is between 5 and 6. So you have to wonder – are we so jaded by score-first entitled ‘stars’ like Melo and Rose that we’ve forgotten how to value plus offensive players, provided they will fit into a team concept and try on D?

      Ditto Tatum who most people consider to be closer to going no. 1 than no. 8… maybe he’s actually just a good NBA prospect? I’m still a length/versatility/D advocate, so I’d still prefer Isaac, Fox, Frank. But maybe if a top-5 prospect falls to us I’d learn to live with it… these mocks are, after all, compiled by people whose pro life is watching and evaluating B’ball…

    102. Brian Cronin

      I’ve been in the ‘not Monk or Tatum’ camp for a while. But I’m wavering. ESPN’s advanced stats guys have Monk as the 3rd best prospect in the draft and with the lowest bust %. In a quick survey of the top mock drafts (which I’ll post in more depth later) 8th is his low water mark and his average position is between 5 and 6. So you have to wonder – are we so jaded by score-first entitled ‘stars’ like Melo and Rose that we’ve forgotten how to value plus offensive players, provided they will fit into a team concept and try on D?

      Ditto Tatum who most people consider to be closer to going no. 1 than no. 8… maybe he’s actually just a good NBA prospect? I’m still a length/versatility/D advocate, so I’d still prefer Isaac, Fox, Frank. But maybe if a top-5 prospect falls to us I’d learn to live with it… these mocks are, after all, compiled by people whose pro life is watching and evaluating B’ball…

      I have no doubt that both Monk and Tatum will be NBA rotation guys, and that’s not an awful result for #8, but I’d prefer to get a guy who might be better than that, and I don’t think either of those guys will be better than that. Ntilikina is more likely to bust than Monk, but his upside is higher and with the team being so far away from actually being contenders, I’d rather go for the home run pick (same reason I wanted them to go for KP at #4 in 2015 once it was clear none of the top 3 were going to drop). With the shape of this team, boom or bust should be their goal (Fox and Isaac would both qualify for boom and bust, and Smith to a certain extent).

    103. lavor postell

      Like what 2For18 said, Malik Monk was a very streaky shooter and his shooting stats were inflated by his great “on fire” games. He struggled in almost all of February and March, while he was incredible in December and January. Which one is the true Malik Monk? Who knows.

      Both are Malik Monk? Shooters have hot and cold stretches and some are extremely streaky. This is like the epitome of JR Smith’s career. The question with Monk is can he be more than a shooter? Is he a better ball handler and passer than we saw at UK or could he develop into one? Do you think you can work around his limitations defensively given his size? Those are the real questions surrounding Monk’s success at the next level.

    104. djphan

      the ESPN analytics model is not good… i wouldn’t put too much weight into it…

      there is a possibility that monk will be a decent scorer… but his rebounding and steals numbers are pretty low which signals that he has subpar athleticism… and that also impacts how much of his scoring translates… if you look at his 2p fg% you’ll see that he had some issues scoring inside also… that means he’s going to be jacking up alot of 3s to make up for his shortcomings there…. that’s what he basically had to do in college to get as many points as he did as well but it will be magnified in the pros…

      if he hits his 3s.. he might be useful… but that’s a very big gamble for not a lot of gain…

    105. Philmelo

      If he doesn’t get stronger then yes.

      Please stop it with the sloppy comparisons.

    106. Jack Bauer

      “Amen. These are the same fans who complain about the erratic, piecemeal and short-sighted decision making of our front office and yet turn around to argue with straight faces that they want to trade our 21-22 year old Euro big who was the franchise’s first top five pick in the past 28 years because he’s “average” at this point in his career. I mean, wow. You can’t make this shit up.”

      WHAT HE SAID !

    107. DRed

      Compared to the other top-60 players on Ford’s Big Board, Monk is unique because he lacks any glaring weaknesses statistically, but the only statistic in which he really stands out is his having a low turnover percentage.

      wut

    108. DRed

      Markkanen is pretty fascinating to me. What if Steve Novak could handle the ball? Novak was a pretty useful player for a few years, and a Novak would could score inside too would have been a really good player on offense.

      (I know I said earlier that we shouldn’t worry about fit with Porzingis, but Markkanen is the one guy in the draft I’d stay away from because of Porzingis)

    109. 2FOR18

      No way Portland keeps all 3 of their picks, right? That’s 3 guaranteed long term contracts they’d have to give out. They could use a big. Oquinn for their #20 or 26. Let’s do this.

    110. 2FOR18

      Really looking at their needs, I think Philly will take Monk, so my worries are probably moot. I mean, they can’t draft another big, and they really need shooting.
      Then another guy I don’t want, Tatum, makes too much sense for Orlando, who’s starting SF is Terrence Ross.
      Minnesota needs shooting and has plenty of guards, so the 3rd guy I don’t want, Markkenin can go there.
      Fultz and Ball go 1 and 2.
      Josh Jackson slides right into SF for Phoenix.
      Sac has to take either Fox or Smith Jr.

      So that leaves us with either Fox or Smith Jr., so I feel better now.

    111. lavor postell

      @2FOR18

      The best deal that makes sense for us and POR is probably sending them Lee and KOQ in exchange for Turner and 2 of those picks.

    112. er

      Like what 2For18 said, Malik Monk was a very streaky shooter and his shooting stats were inflated by his great “on fire” games

      True but can’t he improve at shooting like all of the other prospects like Fox? I only bring him up at PG cuz he is short and Cal said he was a great passer but Fox was asked to do all the facilitation

    113. 2FOR18

      Just read close to my dream draft by draft express, where we draft Smith Jr, Josh Hart and Nigel Williams-Goss

    114. 2FOR18

      ER, this is just anecdotal, but I watch a lot of college hoops, and whenever Fox was out with an injury or foul trouble the offense would often fall apart. I don’t recall Monk ever taking the reins. He was just a guy who would chuck 3s or make an amazing drive and dunk once in a blue. He also didn’t rebound or play aggressive defense.

    115. 2FOR18

      I’d be all over that 121. There is so much talent in this draft that with 3 #1s and 2 #2s we’d have a shot at reloading in one summer.

    116. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      @123 That’s a nice haul but I think that we need a tough guy, as Phil and Horny alluded to at the end of the season. A bruising, no nonsense, shot blocking, big assed, hard rebounding enforcer. Will any of those be available with the 58th pick?

    117. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      @124 I also noticed that there were times during the NCAA playoffs, crucial parts of the games, where Monk was seated on the bench watching the action. Please don’t mention this to the Colangelos.

    118. KnickfaninNJ

      I’d like to see tge Knicks evaluate Zhao Jiwei seriously. He was so good for his age in the Olympics. Its possible he stopped developing because of the nature of the Chinese Basketball Association, but he’s still young. Maybe we could invite him to Summer league

    119. stratomatic

      Whatever we do, I would really like to add Justin Jackson somehow. He’s older, but he’s still improving and I think he will be ready to contribute and score right now. If we could pull that off, I’d be thrilled.

      I have mixed feelings about Monk. I think he’s going to be a freak scorer that will pay well under fire, but if he winds up as an undersized SG that can’t defend and can’t do much else he’s never going to be more than a 6th man.

      However, if you think he has the tools to become a scoring PG over time, I think I like him a LOT at #8. When Curry was 18 people didn’t picture him as a real PG either. But Curry knew he had to work on his passing skills and handle because he was only 6’3″. He’s still not a true pass first PG, but his non scoring skills developed by the time he was 21 and became a pro.

      So how much progress can Monk make in that direction from 19-21? I’m not saying he’s going to be as good a scorer at Curry, but I could easily see him dropping 20 a game with 60 TS% as a pro within a few years.

    120. Totes McGoats

      A few weeks ago, I was dead-set against trading KP. But now that Boston has the top pick, and KP is a perfect fit there and better than any player in the draft- I would have to consider it if I’m Phil. I would definitely give them KP and both our 2’s for their 1 this year and a 1st next season. Then use the top pick on Ball pr Fultz and the 8 on Giles if Isaac isn’t there. If Giles knee is ok, he projects to be a 4 worth developing. I also believe Issac can gain a few pounds and become a KG type at the 4 with his all around game. That also gives Melo all the scoring opportunities he wants if he stays. It also may make him want to waive his NTC so he can go somewhere and carry a lesser load at this stage of his career for a chance to win. I mean..what the hell..we need to rebuild anyway, right?

      Of course..trading KP will definitely bite us in the ass. I think the kid’s gonna be great..environment pending. Obviously, I wanna see him to become great as a Knick, but moving him for the top pick is intriguing. Possibly foolish, but intriguing nonetheless.

    121. djphan

      a decent scenario would involve trading kp and koq for #1 and crowder…. draft fultz and collins….

      pg – fultz
      sg – crowder
      sf – melo or whoever
      pf – wily
      c – collins

    122. djphan

      i’m not too high on justin jackson.. i don’t like prospects who already shoot a lot of 3s… which usually means they are just going to shoot a lot of 3s in the pros also….

      i do like devin robinson and dillon brooks though… both of whom.. along with hart… i hope we nab with our 2nd rd’ers…

    123. yellowboy90

      Devin has to get bigger and work on his handle a lot. He has potential to be a solid player but he is light and can only do basic moves with the ball in his hand. I think he should have stayed in school. HOwever if you can tighten up his handle

    124. djphan

      i don’t think his ballhandling is too much of a concern…. he strikes me as a low usage high efficiency role player in the danny green mold…

    125. yellowboy90

      He will have to really improve as a defender and I think adding more size will help to improve his ability to defend. Right now I see him more as a poor man’s Harrison Barnes(GSW version).

    126. Cock Jowles, A Proven Scorer Who Is Worth All of His Max Contract

      Compared to the other top-60 players on Ford’s Big Board, Monk is unique because he lacks any glaring weaknesses statistically, but the only statistic in which he really stands out is his having a low turnover percentage.

      Compared to the other players on Ford’s Big Board, Monk scores points when the ball goes into the basket and scores fewer points when it doesn’t.

    127. dtrickey

      Indiana was reportedly offered 4 1st roudners by Atlanta for Paul George. Given the flight risk George is for the Pacers, who would say no to that? Granted the Hawks with PG are a solid playoff team, so they aren’t likely to be super high picks.

      If we can even get half that kind of offer for Melo, I would be all over that like Garfield on lasagna.

    128. Brian Cronin

      Indiana was reportedly offered 4 1st roudners by Atlanta for Paul George. Given the flight risk George is for the Pacers, who would say no to that? Granted the Hawks with PG are a solid playoff team, so they aren’t likely to be super high picks.

      I think Atlanta is too good for that deal to be worth all that much. Hmmm…I guess if you think PG is going to Los Angeles no matter what next year, it makes more sense, as Atlanta would then be without PG and maybe their first rounders would be worth more.

    129. Brian Cronin

      Oh sure, but if they’re heavily protected, that wouldn’t even get you in the front door, right?

    130. KnickfaninNJ

      Agreed. So I took a look at the Hawks pick status and it would have to be most of their own future picks, because they seem to mostly have their first rounders and no one elses. Would you do that deal for Melo? To make it work, you would probably have to take back Bazemore (whose contract lasts two more years) and Ilyazova (whose contract is expiring); since I am assuming we don’t want Howard. This trade works per the trade machine. If yes, how many first rounders would you want back? We have to do the trade soon, otherwise Ilyasova rolls off of Atlanta’s books and becomes an unrestricted free agent (then giving us cap space)

      Honestly, I think Atlanta might like that deal. They get schroeder, Howard, Millsap and Melo as starters, assuming they keep Millsap

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