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Sunday, April 23, 2017

Knicks Morning News (2017.04.12)

  • [SNY Knicks] GEICO SportsNite: Evaluating the Knicks’ season
    (Wednesday, April 12, 2017 1:10:35 AM)

  • [SNY Knicks] Report: Joakim Noah needs rotator cuff surgery
    (Tuesday, April 11, 2017 11:18:55 PM)

    Joakim Noah will undergo rotator cuff surgery, reports Adrian Wojnarowski of The Vertical.

  • [SNY Knicks] Hornacek discusses Melo’s season, potential Knicks future
    (Tuesday, April 11, 2017 3:45:09 PM)

    It’s expected that the Knicks, who attempted to trade Anthony prior to the deadline this season, will make him available this offseason.

  • [SNY Knicks] Baker has impressed while taking on bigger role than expected
    (Tuesday, April 11, 2017 12:45:39 PM)

  • [SNY Knicks] Oakley in court for arraignment on assault charges stemming from MSG incident
    (Tuesday, April 11, 2017 9:55:00 AM)

    Charles Oakley is in court today to face charges stemming from a scuffle with MSG security in February.

  • [NYDN] Joakim Noah reportedly needs surgery for torn left rotator cuff
    (Tuesday, April 11, 2017 8:09:09 PM)

    Joakim Noah is going under the knife. Again.

  • [NYDN] Knicks coach doesn’t exactly give ringing endorsement for Carmelo
    (Tuesday, April 11, 2017 8:04:36 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony may not even be in uniform for what could be his final game with the Knicks.

  • [NYDN] Fan who Dolan yelled at prevented from renewing season tickets
    (Tuesday, April 11, 2017 4:21:53 PM)

    He’s been rejected.

  • [NYDN] Walt Frazier serves jury duty at same time Oakley faces judge
    (Tuesday, April 11, 2017 9:02:32 AM)

    “I didn’t see the Oak Man!” Frazier said when a News reporter told him of the coincidence.

  • [NYDN] Knicks still sell gear like champs despite another 50-loss season
    (Tuesday, April 11, 2017 8:14:13 AM)

    Knicks fans will buy anything. Hype. Spin. Jerseys.

  • [NYDN] Charles Oakley faces judge for alleged MSG security assault
    (Tuesday, April 11, 2017 6:52:43 AM)

    Former New York Knicks star Charles Oakley faced a judge Tuesday on charges he assaulted a security guard at Madison Square Garden.

  • [NYPost] Walt ‘Clyde’ Frazier was stylin’ and profilin’ at jury duty
    (Tuesday, April 11, 2017 8:47:24 PM)

    NBA Hall of Famer Walt “Clyde” Frazier hit the court Tuesday — for Manhattan grand-jury duty. The former Knick and current color commentator arrived in his typical snazzy style, wearing his signature red-and-black plaid pants, a 1960s-style golf shirt and beige dress shoes. He arrived at around 9 a.m. and left in a yellow cab…

  • [NYPost] Joakim Noah may have to undergo shoulder surgery
    (Tuesday, April 11, 2017 7:10:44 PM)

    In the hard-to-believe-this-is-happening-in-the-same-season department, Knicks center Joakim Noah is contemplating another surgery, according to a source — this one to repair a torn rotator cuff in his left shoulder. The Vertical first reported the suspended Noah needs surgery that would take four to six months to rehab. Noah had shoulder surgery last year that cut…

  • [NYPost] How Game 82 can become a Knicks lottery nightmare
    (Tuesday, April 11, 2017 5:11:11 PM)

    Who says the Knicks haven’t played a meaningful game in April since Phil Jackson started making changes after the 2013-14 season? A Knicks victory at the Garden over the Sixers in their season finale Wednesday could turn into a nightmare and have a negative impact on their lottery seeding. The likeliest scenario, though, is the…

  • [NYPost] Fan James Dolan called ‘a–hole’: Knicks are freezing me out
    (Tuesday, April 11, 2017 1:54:49 PM)

    The season-ticket holder/heckler whom owner James Dolan called “an a–hole” said he is being prevented from renewing his partial-plan tickets for next season. The deadline for keeping the same seats is Tuesday. Mike Hamersky told The Post his attempts were rebuffed when a Knicks phone agent put him on hold twice, then he got disconnected….

  • [NYPost] Carmelo Anthony may have shot his last brick for Knicks
    (Tuesday, April 11, 2017 10:41:43 AM)

    There likely will be no sentimental Garden salute for Carmelo Anthony in the Knicks season finale Wednesday against the Sixers. Anthony is probably done for the season and very well could be done for his Knicks career. Coach Jeff Hornacek said Anthony is expected to rest against the Sixers as the Knicks (30-51) finish up…

  • [NYPost] Charles Oakley still insists he did nothing wrong during MSG brawl
    (Tuesday, April 11, 2017 6:22:55 AM)

    Ex-Knick Charles Oakley said Tuesday that he felt “disrespected” – and still maintained that he did nothing wrong – after his Manhattan court arraignment for an embarrassing scuffle with Madison Square Garden security in February. The retired forward faces misdemeanor charges for allegedly assaulting two security guards during the Knicks’ Feb. 8 game against the…

  • [NYTimes] Carmelo Anthony Plots His Team’s Future: His Soccer Team in Puerto Rico, That Is
    (Tuesday, April 11, 2017 2:28:08 PM)

    His fate with the Knicks may be in doubt, but Anthony says he is committed to the team he owns in the North American Soccer League.

  • [NYTimes] Carmelo Anthony Is Expected to Miss Knicks’ Season Finale
    (Tuesday, April 11, 2017 11:36:08 PM)

    Anthony, who has been hinting that it may be time for him to move on, will most likely sit out Wednesday’s game against the 76ers because of a lingering knee injury.

  • [NYTimes] Knicks Fan Involved in Spat With Dolan Says He Can’t Renew Tickets
    (Wednesday, April 12, 2017 1:15:01 AM)

    Mike Hamersky, a lawyer from Queens, said the Knicks were impeding his efforts to renew his season tickets after he yelled at James L. Dolan to sell the franchise.

  • [NYTimes] Mike Conley Rewards Grizzlies’ Faith With a Career Season
    (Tuesday, April 11, 2017 11:58:45 PM)

    Conley became the Memphis franchise’s career scoring leader and achieved his highest per-game scoring average in the first year of a five-year deal.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks’ Joakim Noah needs surgery to repair torn rotator cuff, report says
    (Tuesday, April 11, 2017 11:41:00 PM)

    Joakim Noah’s health continues to be an issue, and his signing keeps looking worse for Phil Jackson and the Knicks.

  • [NY Newsday] Charles Oakley arraigned on charges from Madison Square Garden incident
    (Tuesday, April 11, 2017 6:35:19 PM)

    Charles Oakley appeared at a Manhattan criminal court Tuesday morning for an arraignment hearing stemming from a series of misdemeanor charges he faces after a scuffle with Madison Square Garden security during a February Knicks game.

  • [NY Newsday] Has Carmelo Anthony taken his final shot with the Knicks?
    (Tuesday, April 11, 2017 5:21:30 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony missed a game-tying three-pointer just before the buzzer last week against the Wizards. That may end up being the final shot of his Knicks career.

  • 187 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.04.12)

    1. fmikieo

      I’m wondering if Noah will have to retire before his contact ends. That’s because, if it’s medically determined that he can’t physically play anymore, then his salary (while still paid by the Knicks) wouldn’t count as one of the team’s salaries. And that extra cap space would be nice.

    2. fmikieo

      That said, I’m still of the opinion that the team should be using it’s cap space for the express purpose of acquiring draft picks by taking on other teams’ bad (ideally expiring) contracts.

      And if Noah can be medically PUP’d (physically unable to play) that, combined with Rose’s expiring contact, would mean about 40MM in cap space this summer. That’s potentially good enough for 2-3 first’s and a hual of second’s going forward.

    3. fmikieo

      I remember reading an article a while back that stated Portland would potentially be interested in acquiring Carmelo Anthony. Unlike the Clippers and Cavs, they’ve got decent near-term assets. In addition, they’re wanting/needing a 3-4 guy that can provide scoring volume. And, since they’ve committed to the current roster, they’re looking for that last piece that’ll make them relevant in the west going forward.

      Just saying.

    4. Frank

      I could be completely wrong, but I am still under the expectation that Melo will be on this team next year. I think his camp (and Melo personally) will be in Dolan’s grille to opt out of Phil’s contract after the season, and that there is still an ongoing power struggle. There’s a twitter account @JSports_ent that seems to have pretty good sources inside the Knicks (he called Courtney Lee first including the contract #s if I remember correctly) who just yesterday wrote that “those close to Dolan have continued to advise the Knicks move on from Phil” but that Dolan still hasn’t shown any signs of wanting to move on.

      I think the best thing for the Knicks would be for both Melo and Phil to go, but if I had to choose one to go, I’d still choose Phil. GM/President is so so important in a salary cap league, and ours is one of the worst in the league.

    5. Frank

      I mentioned this before, and while I wonder whether he would consider accepting the job given who the owner is, I still think an amazing outside the box hire for GM/POBO would be Theo Epstein. Paul DePodesta has already broken the barrier in terms of management types moving between sports, going from the Mets to the Browns.

      Though it pains me deeply as a Yankee fan to say this, give Theo 5 years/$75MM and carte blanche across the ENTIRE Knicks organization, and we will have a winner at the end of it. Theo may have the star power not only to convince Dolan but also to be a FA draw on his own.

      Seriously, running an NBA team has to be easy compared to running a baseball team, considering how hard it is to scout amateur baseball players as well as probably 10+ teams in an organization to run (major + minor leagues).

      In terms of why Theo might do it — he broke the Red Sox curse, he broke the Cubs’ curse. He’s clearly going to the MLB HoF. Has anyone ever gone to the HoF in 2 sports?

    6. Totes McGoats

      I’ve been wondering what the surgery would mean for the squad moving forward. Noah’s still young, talented, and knowledgeable- so it’s gonna be REALLY hard to convince him to retire. He has to understand that it doesn’t mean he’s washed up, because I don’t think he is. It just means that it’s his best move. He’s not what he once was, but not because of ability. His former mobility is what made him special at that size. But he still does all of the things he did as a Bull very well- except cover ground like he used to.

      So..it’s not like he can’t play- he just can’t be relied upon in a role that his stature and contract demands. WhatvO would LOVE to see happen is for Noah to retire and replace Rambis on the staff. Noah’s very bright and still young enough be hands on in practice defensively. That would be awesome.

    7. Hubert

      Brian Cronin
      April 12, 2017 at 12:11 am

      So it looks like one-way tie for #6 will be the worst case scenario. I can live with that.

      Philly and Orlando are both going to end up with a 33% chance of moving into the top 3 and a 10% chance of winning the lottery. Their odds of moving up are greater than Trump’s and the Cubs’ were last October.

      The odds drop off considerably after them. At 6 we have a 21.5% chance of moving into top 3 with a 6.3% chance of winning. At 7 we have a 15% chance of moving up and just a 4.3% chance.

      All things considered, you’re right, it’s not terrible if we land in the top 6 and hit a HR with our pick. But still annoying that we won out against all the East teams fighting for a playoff spot. I will be pissed if all the top guards go ahed of us and we have to choose from Tatum, Isaac, Maarkenan.

      http://www.tankathon.com/pick_odds

    8. Brian Cronin

      I could be completely wrong, but I am still under the expectation that Melo will be on this team next year. I think his camp (and Melo personally) will be in Dolan’s grille to opt out of Phil’s contract after the season, and that there is still an ongoing power struggle. There’s a twitter account @JSports_ent that seems to have pretty good sources inside the Knicks (he called Courtney Lee first including the contract #s if I remember correctly) who just yesterday wrote that “those close to Dolan have continued to advise the Knicks move on from Phil” but that Dolan still hasn’t shown any signs of wanting to move on.

      I think the best thing for the Knicks would be for both Melo and Phil to go, but if I had to choose one to go, I’d still choose Phil. GM/President is so so important in a salary cap league, and ours is one of the worst in the league.

      Agreed on all of those points – I’d like to see them both go, and if I had to choose one, I’d chose keeping Melo over keeping Phil, but at the same time, I don’t think either of them are ultimately going. This is just too good for Dolan to have Phil here to take the blame for everything. Plus, Melo can’t be moved unless he wants to, and he seems like he never wants to leave.

    9. Brian Cronin

      There is no way that a rotator cuff tear is going to end Noah’s career. Come on, that just doesn’t make any sense. Chris Bosh could literally die any time he steps on the court and he still wants to try to get back into the league. A normal enough injury like a rotator cuff tear isn’t going to lead to a guy’s retirement.

    10. Ingmarrr

      I’d rather Melo goes. There is no scenario in which he’s good for this team.
      Regarding Phil, there’s at least an imaginary scenario in which he actually knew he’s getting non productive stars – and doing a stealth tank.
      I’ll take fantasy over a confirmed crappy player who dominates the team for his brand’s needs.

    11. Frank

      Serious theoretical question – would people here rather have Isiah Thomas back or keep Phil Jackson?

      I think I honestly would rather have Isiah.

      *ducks*

    12. Bo Nateman

      If Dolan calls either PJ and/or Melo alcoholics, we will have a clue as to his intended future direction.

    13. Brian Cronin

      Serious theoretical question – would people here rather have Isiah Thomas back or keep Phil Jackson?

      I think I honestly would rather have Isiah.

      *ducks*

      I’d prefer Phil, since he has yet to actually trade a first round pick and Isiah traded two first round picks (when the Knicks were under .500, so it wasn’t like they were some great team at the time) for Eddy freakin’ Curry. That’s just far, far dumber than anything Phil has ever done. But yes, Phil stinks, as well, just not nearly at Isiah levels so far.

    14. mase

      They both need to go!
      It if I had it choose it would be melo, sorry to say it. Phil would be really close To full rebuild with melo gone and that’s at least something previous gms have not accomplished.

      Isiah, come on. Phils not at that level bad

    15. Totes McGoats

      There is no way that a rotator cuff tear is going to end Noah’s career. Come on, that just doesn’t make any sense. Chris Bosh could literally die any time he steps on the court and he still wants to try to get back into the league. A normal enough injury like a rotator cuff tear isn’t going to lead to a guy’s retirement.

      Agreed. That’s part of the reason I said it’s gonna be very hard to convince him to retire. But it would be his best move. Correct me if I’m wrong- assuming that doctors won’t say he’s physically unable- if he retires of his own volition it doesn’t give us cap room, right? Obviously the only way he’s gonna retire is of his own volition. I think he’d make a great coach on this staff. I think that would be best for all parties involved. He would still have a tangible effect on the team without blocking Willy, Plumlee, and KOQ at the 5 spot, and it would get Rambis out of there or add a coach on the staff with defensive credibility and great rapport with the players at the very least.

    16. Brian Cronin

      Yeah, retirement on his own wouldn’t take him off of the cap (edited to add: and yes, as mase notes, he wouldn’t get his money that way).

    17. lavor postell

      Isiah also traded the pick that became Gordon Hayward for Marbury and Penny’s contract. He doubled down on the Curry trade by moving for Z-Bo, which was supposed to be a complementary piece to Curry or something. He also had this sexual harassment lawsuit that I heard about once. Seriously, you can hate Phil with the fire of a 1,000 suns but if you want Isiah over him you need to have a re-think.

      Re: Phil vs. Melo

      I’ll roll with Phil given the choice between the two. At least he drafted Porzingis and got Willy in the 2nd round. He’s not the one that can’t be bothered to contest shooters or ever get back with any urgency in transition.

      The smart move would be to hire a new president of bball ops with the instruction to build without Carmelo Anthony in mind, but we know that’s not going to happen. If we’re sticking with Phil my two stipulations he has to abide by while he’s under contract is no trading 1st round picks, which he hasn’t done, and no contracts that extend beyond 2020, but preferably 2019.

    18. mase

      If he retires on his own he doesn’t get his guaranteed salary for three more years…. yea so that’s not gonna happen

    19. Brian Cronin

      Gil Meche actually did do that in the MLB (gave up his money to retire) but it is extremely rare.

    20. Hugo Busto

      Nets resting their starters tonight is such BS.

      I actually think Brook told management to do this so his brother could make the playoffs.

    21. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      The league really has to punish the tankers. It taints the whole sport. Take away their draft pick if found guilty.

    22. Brian Cronin

      Nets resting their starters tonight is such BS.

      I actually think Brook told management to do this so his brother could make the playoffs.

      Didn’t you mention that the Nets get the Pacers’ second rounder if the Pacers miss the playoffs? So that would make sense for the Nets to want Bulls to win, as well, no?

    23. Z-man

      Here’s how bad the Wolves were tanking. They hit a shot to go up by 1 with like 30 seconds left, then foul on the inbounds pass to send Norris Cole to the line. Truly gut-wrenching to listen to.

    24. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      So the Nets are deliberately losing tonight to gain a draft pick and effecting the playoff final standings in the process? They should be punished severely for this.

    25. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      The league is a joke for allowing this cheating to go on. Shoeless Joe Jackson is turning over in his grave.

    26. lavor postell

      The Wolves aren’t tanking, they’re just not very good. Towns is a stud, but the rest of what they have I’m not very bullish on. The next OKC hype looks like a long shot at this point.

    27. Brian Cronin

      On a positive note, how ’bout those Kings?

      We’ll always be able to hang our hats on the fact that at least the Knicks aren’t the Kings.

    28. Hubert

      Good question, Frank. I can see where you’re coming from. But you definitely want Phil over Isiah for the reasons stated above. With Phil, the downside is he wastes the time he’s here. With Isiah, he can waste the time he’s here and blow up the future.

      Let’s be honest: he should never hold a job in a front office ever again.

    29. alsep73

      Be interesting to see tonight which team wants to tank more: us or the Sixers. And I fear it’s the Sixers.

    30. Philmelo

      I can’t believe people here would rather than Melo stay than Phil leave. Jesus H. Christ does no one remember?

      As for Isiah Thomas, if you want him back you deserve another decade of shitty Knicks basketball.

    31. Z-man

      There’s no way that the Kings are worse than the Thunder when they are playing in Minny and OKC is resting three starters including the league MVP. They were chucking up 3’s, committing dumb fouls and letting OKC get any shot they wanted most of the game. Seems like Thibs realizes what is at stake, but if they are actually trying to win, man do they just suck.

    32. alsep73

      Yeah, I’d rather Melo. Phil seems largely incompetent, but at the same time, so many of this franchise’s worst decisions have been made to appease Melo. Until he’s gone, we can’t start an actual rebuild.

      And as bad as Phil has been, he still wipes the floor with Isiah. Good lord.

    33. Philmelo

      I mean, seriously, WTF is this nostalgia for the Isaiah Thomas days all about. I’ve read multiple posts on various blogs who actually yearn for him again. In no humanly imaginable scenario would his return be acceptable. Whether its the horrendous trades, terrible roster construction, sexual harassment, or his failed coaching stint the man was and shall always have been a total and utter fucking failure who ruined this franchise during the aughties. I am still of the belief he had a hand advising Dolan on the disastrous Melo trade as well.

      Its fucking lunacy fans want this guy back over Phil. The latter will at least leave something tangible to build upon without having had to mortgage future draft capital and all of our cap space if he walks away tomorrow.

    34. Z-man

      I would rather have nearly everyone associated with the game of basketball, and most people not associated with it, be GM of the team than have Isiah back. Phil is the greatest GM of all time compared to him.

      Come to think of it, Phil is not any worse than any GM the Knicks have had in the last 40 years. Sadly, he just isn’t any better.

    35. alsep73

      Phil’s worse than the Checketts/Grunfeld team, which didn’t do a perfect job of putting complementary pieces around Ewing, but kept that team a contender for close to a decade.

      But still light years better than Zeke. Eff that guy.

    36. Hugo Busto

      Brian,

      Yeah if pacers miss playoffs the nets gain a 2nd rounder. Like 95% sure anyway.

      Still kind of sucks. Feel like this is one of the worst last days of season in a while.

      Most of the seedings and teams have already been set

      Sucks for the heat. I want to see them in

    37. Philmelo

      Phil seems largely incompetent, but at the same time, so many of this franchise’s worst decisions have been made to appease Melo

      This. Critics can blame Phil for resigning Melo all they want, but the latter has had his hand in constructing the roster the past year as well. Fans conveniently forget that Melo enthusiastically signed off on both the Noah and Rose moves the past season with the understanding that his approval was needed in retooling the roster for an eventual run during his twilight years. So according to neanderthal logic I read here, we keep the washed up player desperate to maintain his control over this franchise and drop the guy who at least is now committed to building around our young talent. Wow.

    38. Hugo Busto

      I blame him for giving him a no trade clause. And the multitude of other blunders he’s made.
      PHIL 100% is incompetent. It’s not even a discussion.

    39. Philmelo

      I blame him for giving him a no trade clause. And the multitude of other blunders he’s made.
      PHIL 100% is incompetent. It’s not even a discussion.

      If Phil were 100% incompetent we wouldn’t have KP or Willy. So…no…

    40. Z-man

      I disagree, and more about Checketts than Grunfeld, who Checketts fired. His primary job was to build a team around Ewing and to acquire a second or third star. He coddled Ewing to the detriment of the team just as Phil coddled Melo, and he traded away draft picks and young players. He forced Riley out. He engineered the Ewing trade that strapped us with Luc Longley and Glen Rice. He set the stage for Isiah as much as anyone.

      Getting lucky in that first draft lottery is the only reason why the Knicks were good in the 90’s. They made a couple of great low-cost finds (Starks, Mase) and built a team that embodied the NY lunchpail ethic. But management also screwed up tremendously during that time, especially Checketts.

    41. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      The Phil hate in here is just unconscionable. He’s had a total of one inherited draft choice to use since he got here. He’s done just about the best that he could do for the team long term while admittedly not being perfect in the short term. KP and Willy and Baker and Ndour and Plumlee plus draft picks going forward all lead me to predict greatness in our future.

    42. lavor postell

      Man, Plumlee isn’t an NBA player, bless his heart.

      KP and Willy look like, at the very least, competent starting level players moving forward.

      Baker has definite potential as a spot starter, but more as a backup combo guard.

      Ndour has some skills, but the late season push from him needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I really like his physical tools and the combo forward archetype he fits, but I’m not sold on him one way or the other. Bring him back, but I think he has to earn his spot again in training camp next year.

    43. Hugo Busto

      Lol so there was no luck involved in getting KP?

      Clarence Gaines doesn’t exist all of a sudden?

    44. Zanzibar

      I blame him for giving him a no trade clause. And the multitude of other blunders he’s made. PHIL 100% is incompetent. It’s not even a discussion.

      If Phil were 100% incompetent we wouldn’t have KP or Willy. So…no…

      Phil gave Melo max, trade kicker, and NTC in the hope that Melo would be motivated to adopt his principles. But an even bigger mistake was continuing to kowtow to Melo after the contract was signed. He let him play on a bum knee after he made the All Star team. Those games we won because of that cost us KAT. Phil should have done the right thing and told him to have the surgery right after the All Star game. We’re not gonna get any value at this stage for Melo given his performance after the trade deadline. Clippers probably wanted Melo for this year’s playoffs and next. Since this year’s out, Melo’s value has decreased by 50% to them. I suspect they offered Phil their 2021 pick but that was too far out for “win now” Phil who wanted Redick. If LA is out and Melo wants to stay in NY, trade him to Nets for Jefferson or Levert.

    45. lavor postell

      Lol so there was no luck involved in getting KP?

      Clarence Gaines doesn’t exist all of a sudden?

      Phil hired Gaines, so that’s just good judgement and delegation. Every draft pick has an element of luck but if you make a strong pick at 4th overall when most perceived it as a 3 player draft then you deserve some credit. Finding Willy H with the 35th pick as a specific targeted player isn’t luck either.

    46. Philmelo

      Lol so there was no luck involved in getting KP?

      Luck is involved in every pick to one extent or another, so your point is kind of irrelevant here.

      Clarence Gaines doesn’t exist all of a sudden?

      So Phil doesn’t get credit for hiring Gaines to do the job? Phil only gets credit for his bad hires like Derrick Fisher or Kurt Rambis? So when someone he hires does a good job, its that guy who gets the lionshare credit but when someone he hires does a bad job its most Phil’s fault?

      Hahahahaha. Batshit. Crazy. Insane.

    47. Accidentank 2017

      What does Melo’s opinion have to do with anything? This is the shit that bothers me. Melo has zero decision making power. Just because he’s happy we got Derrick Rose doesn’t mean Phil Jackson didn’t think it was a good idea. Just because he was happy to add Joakim Noah doesn’t mean Phil Jackson didn’t think adding Noah would help us triangle our way to victories. Melo wasn’t a fan of the Porzingis pick according to people at the time, and nobody lost their job that day. You cannot make every decision to please the players because players no nothing about building a basketball team, and if a GM knew anything about building a team they would understand that themselves.

      Phil Jackson has been terrible. Saying “well he wouldn’t have been so bad if it weren’t for Melo” is a sorry excuse. There were moves to be made that Phil didn’t make. We’re not talking about a team that barely missed the playoffs every year. You’re talking about a team that has been in the bottom 10 every full year PJ has been here despite having assets (the 2015 NBA draft and cap space now 3 years in a row) to improve the team. We went from 17 wins to 32 wins to 30 wins because of mismanagement of assets and undervaluing potential players because triangle. That’s a shit job and I absolutely believe Phil could have had a 40+ win team with Melo on the roster this year.

    48. Philmelo

      He let him play on a bum knee after he made the All Star team. Those games we won because of that cost us KAT.

      This is just so problematic. Forget the speculative nature of this assertion, since we could have easily moved up to 2nd and still not gotten KAT. But you really want to present the KP as proof of Phil’s incompetence when he was top 3 talent in that draft taken with the 4th pick? Really?

    49. Hugo Busto

      Well for some strange reason Kurt Rambis is still on the coaching staff so yeah he deserves all the hate for it. Guy is a moron

    50. Brian Cronin

      Melo is worse at his job than Phil is at his, but Melo’s last two years can’t screw the Knicks over like Phil’s last two years possibly could. What’s the worst that Melo can do? Continue to be mediocre? Phil gets to pick the roster. And if he was making moves to appease Melo, then that’s on Phil, too. So while I’d like to see them both go, I’d sooner keep Melo over Phil.

      Odds are, though, that we’re stuck with them both for the lives of their respective contracts.

    51. Philmelo

      What does Melo’s opinion have to do with anything? This is the shit that bothers me. Melo has zero decision making power.

      What have you seen the past seven years that I haven’t makes you think Melo has zero decision making power in this organization, because by my count he’s had the decision making power to 1.) force the horrible trade that brought him to NYK, 2.) fire D’Antoni, 3.) extend Woodson, 4.) get Lin kicked off, 5.) have his agency’s players fill our roster, 6.) earn a NTC which allows him to dictate our roster construction moving forward, 7.) earn private consultation with Phil on roster moves and 8.) now, possibly according to rumors, get into a power struggle with his GM. Is there anything else here I am missing?

    52. Brian Cronin

      #1-5 were totally true, but then Dolan got Phil and gave him total control. So anything beyond #5 is on Phil.

    53. Philmelo

      Well for some strange reason Kurt Rambis is still on the coaching staff so yeah he deserves all the hate for it. Guy is a moron

      This was not a deft sidestep…

    54. TheOakmanCometh

      Phil is one of the five worst GMs in the league. He grades out at about a D+. That said, he is light years ahead of Isiah, who was an F-minus minus.

    55. Zanzibar

      This is just so problematic. Forget the speculative nature of this assertion, since we could have easily moved up to 2nd and still not gotten KAT. But you really want to present the KP as proof of Phil’s incompetence when he was top 3 talent in that draft taken with the 4th pick? Really?

      I’m on record that I wanted the Knicks to pick KAT, KP, or WCS so I’ve got nothing against KP and I hope he’ll improve as he gains strength and stamina. At the moment, however, KAT looks a lot better. And the gist is that Phil’s done some good things but it is his kowtowing to Melo which is at the heart of his Isiah-level bad major decisions: Melo NTC, Rose trade, Noah signing. He should have done the right thing and preserved our investment in Melo – especially since he gave him a NTC – by telling Melo he needed to have the surgery. Had he done the right thing, we would have had KAT since we know how that lottery turned out.

    56. Philmelo

      #1-5 were totally true, but then Dolan got Phil and gave him total control. So anything beyond #5 is on Phil.

      Not even the point. The fact that person x spilled the milk doesn’t change the fact that it needs to be cleaned up. The point is that Melo does have power, lots of it, waaaaaaaay more than he should have. Anyone suggesting he doesn’t have his fingerprints on this season’s roster or won’t have them on future rosters if Phil is gone is ludicrous.

    57. TheOakmanCometh

      Minnesota is not tanking. That’s what’s so sad about their performance. They were clearly frustrated to be losing last night.

      They’re trying to win yet have lost 5 straight. The Lakers are trying to lose yet have won 5 straight.

    58. rama

      I’m glad to see sime people suggesting that Isaiah might be better than Phil, because then I know whose comments I can completely ignore in the future.

    59. swiftandabundant

      Blaming Phil for not tanking hard enough when we won 17 games is INSANE.

      First, no way of knowing we lose more games with Melo sitting earlier in the season. I mean, if he’s a selfish ball hog maybe him sitting lets the dudes who were on that team gel without him, play harder and we win a few more games instead of losing 17.

      Second, 17 wins was the worst record in franchise history. So just stop it.

      Third, if there is an alternate universe where Melo sits earlier in the season and we lose even more games (or Hardaway simply doesn’t win that last game for us), there is still no guarantee that we would have had the number one pick bc that would have been an alternate universe with alternate outcomes (haven’t you seen the butterfly effect?). So just bc the worst team in that draft got the number one pick doesn’t mean if we were the worst team we would have gotten the top pick. That’s not how alternate universes work.

    60. Philmelo

      Melo is worse at his job than Phil is at his, but Melo’s last two years can’t screw the Knicks over like Phil’s last two years possibly could. What’s the worst that Melo can do? Continue to be mediocre?

      Let us count the ways:

      1.) Every year he plays on our team he nets us less possible trade capital in return, 2.) he provides another unnecessary distraction with speculation about his status/future, 3.) he stalls our offensive evolution into a more motion-oriented team offense 4.) disallows us from rebuilding around our youngsters since its impossible to assess their evolution with his center of gravity on the team, 5.) becomes the most powerful figure in the organization all over again having removed yet another major figure in another power struggle he won.

    61. swiftandabundant

      I would posit Melo has had a lot of influence and say in the organization but his influence today is nil. I think last off season was Phil’s attempt to give Melo one more chance to compete. Melo still has power of course with the NTC, but I truly believe we are done trying to roster build around Melo. This is just my hunch of course. Maybe I’m wrong. And some of the damage (Noah) will affect us for a few years. But even if Melo isn’t traded, I bet we put a win now team around him this off season. With KP and Zinger and a top pick coming our way plus some fun role dudes with Baker, NDour and our multiple second round picks, its natural for us to go for a youth movement next year.

    62. Philmelo

      …but I truly believe we are done trying to roster build around Melo.

      Yes. I think we are done trying to roster build around Melo if Phil remains the GM. However, if he’s not the GM after losing a power struggle this season with Melo then its impossible to consistently argue that Melo has no power in the organization – he just helped get his GM fired. How much of a display of power do you need? Any GM who would be desperate or stupid enough to want to enter that situation would know who’s in charge.

    63. mase

      Phil should also get credit for coaching choices. Anyone remember his first target was Kerr.
      His commitment to Rambo is strange but Hornacek was brilliant. I grade that an A, Fish a bminus

    64. DRed

      Shame that wreck of a Bulls team is probably going to make the playoffs instead of the much more interesting Heat.

    65. Z-man

      Yeah, Fisher was no genius but I thought he actually coached pretty well. He had that motley bunch at .500 past the halfway point of the season until Melo twisted his ankle stepping on a Ref’s foot. I don’t count that hiring against Phil, how was he supposed to know that Derek would be hanging with the most volatile player in the league’s ex?

    66. mase

      How about this approach to avoid tanking. Worst 5 teams amount of ping pong balls is based on head to head regular season results.
      Soccer does something similar if I remember correctly.

    67. Brian Cronin

      Shame that wreck of a Bulls team is probably going to make the playoffs instead of the much more interesting Heat.

      Yeah, I’m honestly shocked that the Bulls are going to sneak in there. And shockingly enough, NO team in the East will make it with an under .500 record! I sure didn’t expect that to happen, either.

      The Heat, though, still have a chance to sneak in there over the Pacers. If the Pacers lose tonight and the Heat win tonight, the Pacers will be out and the Heat will be in.

    68. Zanzibar

      Blaming Phil for not tanking hard enough when we won 17 games is INSANE.

      Reread what I wrote. I never said he should have tanked. Melo suffered a knee injury, he shouldn’t have been limping around on it to enhance his brand. That’s got nothing to do with tanking; it’s preserving the health of a guy who’s got a NTC and is in the first year of a 5-year deal.

      And yes our record would have been worse if Melo didn’t play those games and we would have had KAT. But AGAIN that would been the result of Phil doing the right thing which had nothing to do with tanking.

    69. Philmelo

      Shame that wreck of a Bulls team is probably going to make the playoffs instead of the much more interesting Heat.

      Interesting you raise the Heat in lieu of our days long discussion about the tanking problem in our league. If we recall, they were among one of the worst teams in the NBA before the new calendar year, rather far behind us in the standings. Instead of tucking tail and tanking like so many other teams did, they actually made a go of it and took a serious run at the playoffs this season. They actually did what the league wanted by competing balls out and are going to be penalized for doing so by getting a late lottery when they could have done a Philly, rested their good players, and aimed for a top 5 pick.

    70. Philmelo

      And yes our record would have been worse if Melo didn’t play those games and we would have had KAT. But AGAIN that would been the result of Phil doing the right thing which had nothing to do with tanking.

      So you’re mad at Phil for not not-tanking enough? I see…

    71. Accidentank 2017

      Phil Jackson has a worse W-L record than Isiah Thomas had. If he gets fired it’s because he’s a below average GM, bro.

    72. Brian Cronin

      True, if Phil gets fired, it doesn’t have to be due to a power struggle with Melo. It very well could just be because of how bad he’s done as a GM.

    73. swiftandabundant

      @ 66 – I mean maybe. But Melo hasn’t been to the playoffs in 3 years. He’s clearly not elite anymore. I know people will say he never was but when Melo came here he had been to the playoffs every year with Denver and the first 3 years here he got to the playoffs too and even got us a playoff series win, the first in a long time. The following year we BARELY missed the playoffs but Melo was very good that year individually and broke the franchise scoring record.

      Since then its been a 17 win season where he missed half the season. And now two bad low 30 win seasons. He’s now in his 30s. He has power in the sense that he can dictate his future with his trade clause but I sensed in the media and from the organization a real shift in their feeling towards him even up to Dolan. Again, this is all just what I’ve sensed reading the articles and news this season but I think they are over him.

    74. Brian Cronin

      Since then its been a 17 win season where he missed half the season. And now two bad low 30 win seasons. He’s now in his 30s. He has power in the sense that he can dictate his future with his trade clause but I sensed in the media and from the organization a real shift in their feeling towards him even up to Dolan. Again, this is all just what I’ve sensed reading the articles and news this season but I think they are over him.

      Agreed, which is how it goes for most stars on the wrong end of 30. Their power diminishes when they diminish.

    75. Philmelo

      If he gets fired it’s because he’s a below average GM, bro.

      LOL. Like Dolan fires you just for being a below average GM. Even Isiah wasn’t canned for that. It took Anuka Brown Sanders and a power struggle with the Commissioner’s office to force Dolan to finish him off.

      If Phil’s fired before his contract is up with less time served than Isaiah after inheriting a worse mess than Isaiah did, it will be because of his power struggle with Melo.

    76. Zanzibar

      So you’re mad at Phil for not not-tanking enough?

      Phil said he kowtowed to Melo’s building his brand after the knee injury. That’s what I’m mad at Phil about. Had Phil done the right thing and not played Melo and told him to get the surgery, we’d have KAT and probably a healthier Melo.

    77. Hugo Busto

      Spoelstra is a very good coach. It shouldn’t really be a surprise they went on a run, maybe not to the extent that they did but still.

      RasMelo,

      What is up with your obsession with PHIL and the triangle? He’s not a good GM and I don’t see how anyone could argue otherwise. He’s the laughing stock of the league besides Vlade and the Kings. Goink

      Are people actually confident with him at the healm heading into this offseason?

    78. Philmelo

      He’s clearly not elite anymore.

      That’s irrelevant now that he has a NTC. If anything, Melo’s diminishing skills ironically makes him even more powerful in the organization since we can’t trade him anywhere and he has nowhere else to go. Its like when you impose sanctions upon a dictator and the dictator becomes even more powerful as his country becomes weaker.

    79. thenoblefacehumper

      Melo is a problem for two more years, maximum. Phil Jackson could fuck things up for the next ten for all we know. My preference is obviously to see them both go, but there’s no comparison as to who the best choice is if it can only be one.

      Also I truly hate to be this guy because I love KP’s demeanor and still do believe he can be great, but we might want to pump the breaks on giving Jackson a ton of credit for the pick until KP actually becomes productive.

    80. Philmelo

      What is up with your obsession with PHIL and the triangle?

      I barely even mentioned the Triangle on this thread and even then it was as one part of a larger argument about how Melo stalls the movement towards a motion offense. You really need to learn to actually read an argument carefully and engage with a person’s points with some detail. It seems as if your understanding of positions are either one extreme absolute or the other with little nuance in between.

      As for Phil, “my obsession” lies is refuting the asinine contention that this team would be better off with Melo winning their power struggle and the idea that a return to the Losing Isaiah days.

      He’s not a good GM and I don’t see how anyone could argue otherwise.

      Good? No. But even you should recognize the difference between that and saying he is “100% is incompetent.”

    81. Hugo Busto

      No one that I see has advocated that Isiah>PHIL. But it just goes to show how bad PHIL has been that it’s even a thought to compare the two.

    82. Philmelo

      Melo is a problem for two more years, maximum.

      Hahaha. You think Melo won’t want to be extended? He loves playing in NYC. And when he leaves nothing tangible will have been achieved with him on the team because he will always be alpha dog and will never accept a Vince Carter/Paul Pierce type role. If Phil were to walk away tomorrow he’d have left us with two of the top 3 picks in their respective drafts, a better cap situation than he inherited, and all of our future picks intact. Name me one GM in that past 15 years who has done that for the Knicks? Even Donnie Walsh left us with a mess of a cap situation and a good chunk of our future draft capital wasted when he walked away. With Phil we can actually build a core, its not even close.

    83. Philmelo

      No one that I see has advocated that Isiah>PHIL.

      More proof you really need to read the posts here more carefully.

    84. KnickfaninNJ

      On a different topic, how does Noah’s rotator cuff surgery relate to his suspension? Does he have to recover enough to be able to play before he can setve the rest of his suspension? Since he already started the suspension, maybe the twenty games he has to serve are now set?

    85. lavor postell

      KP was plenty productive for a 2nd year player. His defensive metrics are still very good despite logging major minutes with 2 of the worst defensive players in the league. He upped his efficiency and his shooting percentages across the board. He needs to get stronger to sustain the level we saw earlier in the year over the course of a season. It’ll also help him be more comfortable and efficient in the post against switches and hold guys off on the glass.

      I’m not worried about KP. His physical development was always going to take awhile. I expected him to make his big leap in his 3rd year, but we saw a glimpse what he can do when he’s physically right for the first 30 games of the season.

    86. thenoblefacehumper

      If Melo is extended after a hypothetical Phil ouster, that would be an entirely separate issue. As it stands now Melo is very annoying to have around but the long-term damage has mostly played out.

      I agree that Phil has stumbled (the good things he as done have mostly been complete accidents) into being one of the better Knicks GMs in a while, but that’s an incredibly low bar and he’s still been an objectively bad GM.

    87. KnickfaninNJ

      I agree with Philmelo, Jackson is way better than Isaiah. I would also point out that historically it has usually taken a long time to turn bad teams around. Danny Ainge took three years to turn around Boston. The Lakers have been turning around at least three years. And I’m sure there are more examples.

    88. Z-man

      On balance, Phil made some moves that are unquestionably counterproductive to team/franchise success. The biggest of all was the Melo deal, and the majority here did not like that move at the time. Then there’s the Noah deal, which again, hardly anyone here liked, and which turned out terribly. Next there was the Rose trade, which was more warmly received by some, others (myself included) were ambivalent, but very few thought it was a strong deal. On balance, it has not turned out well, but not disastrous either (imho.) Then there’s the Chandler trade, which many here were ambivalent about although some hated it. Then there’s not offering Kerr enough to sign him immediately. Then there’s ditching Shump and JR for peanuts, although that solidified the tank that yielded Porzingis and Willy. Then there are little things like the Afflalo, Lee and Lance signings, etc. And of course, the idiotic tweets and Charlie Rose ghost-writing.

      On the other hand, whether through sound decision-making by him or his braintrust, or just dumb luck, there have been some tangible positives. The Willy draft/trade is his best move so far. Then there’s picking Porzingis (against the better judgment of many here), the THJ for a #1 pick trade (never mind that he ditched him in the Rose trade, it was a good trade at the time and a good pick at that spot) and the O’Quinn signing. Then there’s the Hornacek hire, when many predicted that he would re-sign Rambis and was just going through the motions.

      There are also the things that didn’t happen…signing Monroe or Aldridge to max deals, trading #1 picks away to win now, etc.

      So overall, in no way is it as bad as the Isiah years, or even the Donnie Walsh years. But whatever, this is certainly a time of very incremental progress marked by comical incompetence.

    89. swiftandabundant

      @ Z-man I respect your honesty and frankness about Phil. Too often we are backed into corners of thinking phil is awful or being a phil jackson lover and the truth is somewhere in between. He’s made good moves, bad moves, set us up to have all our draft picks for the future and given us a couple of nice young pieces to build around. He’s also done some bad trades. My issue with the people who bash him is that I think they conveniently ignore how depleted we were of draft picks and how hard that makes it to really rebuild. And also I think we will never now the conditions of his hire by Dolan and if Melo was a condition of his being hired. I just find it hard to believe that Dolan would have been willing to trade Melo when he was at his career peak when Phil came on board.

    90. swiftandabundant

      How does Noah tear his rotator cuff when he’s not even playing?

      I fear that dude is so competitive and so distraught by not being able to play well that he’s over working himself out in the gym, pushing himself too hard to get back.

    91. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      Two points:

      1A) I’d rather have KP on my team than Towns.

      A1) Phil has had ONE inherited first round draft pick in all of the time that he’s been here up until now. Be real!

    92. Z-man

      Noah was constantly grabbing his shoulder and doubled over in pain when he was playing this season. Maybe he was trying to improve it without surgery (like Melo did, and like Tiger is trying to do.) But this is not a new injury.

    93. Hugo Busto

      Z-Man is good people. Although I don’t really think the Hornacek hire should be applauded; obviously better than Rambis (but that shouldn’t even be a factor because no sane GM would give Rambis a HC gig)

      Swift,
      probably connected to the SARM’s pro hormones he was taking. They are supposed to help in repair/recovery. It’s possible he had the injury for awhile and used the pro hormones for it. But at the end of the day they can’t heal a torn cuff and surgery is needed (which any smart trainer should have told him).

    94. MSA

      I would trade Melo before getting rid of Phil.

      Barring some miracle, Melo from now on is on a steep decline. He won’t get better on offense and his defense is already non-existent. And he still have some value that we could trade for (a 2nd rounder at least) that Phil doesn’t have. Let’s not even discuss all the drama that will happen when the inevitable moment of Melo being forced to take the backseat happens.

      As dumb as Phil is, there is a possibility that he could learn something from his terrible first 3 years or maybe just got lucky in the draft or free agency. As long as he is keeping our draft picks, we will survive the Phil Jackson era.

    95. Z-man

      Oh, and I forgot siging Robin Lopez, which most here liked. That he turned it around into the Rose trade doesn’t lessen the evaluation of signing Lopez to a fair market deal in the first place.

    96. lavor postell

      It is unclear if this latest injury will prohibit Noah from serving another game of his suspension in the Knicks’ season finale against the Philadelphia 76ers on Wednesday, though the injury is believed to be more of a general wear and tear ailment and not the result of a recent incident.

      That’s from Begley’s piece on the injury

    97. Z-man

      I would also rather be rid of Melo than Phil. For one thing, it would signal that Phil is learning that Melo is a lost cause. He thought he could change Melo’s mindset, but Melo’s b-ball IQ and motor are just not up to the task. Whereas keeping Melo around, Phil or no Phil, confirms that the old mindset is still in place. Melo has been the face of the franchise since we traded for him, not Phil. He’s been through 3-4 GMs now and nothing with him has changed. This is a golden opportunity to move on, with nothing left from the previous regimes.

    98. Philmelo

      If Melo is extended after a hypothetical Phil ouster, that would be an entirely separate issue. As it stands now Melo is very annoying to have around but the long-term damage has mostly played out.

      You really want to hold off our rebuild two years? Because it won’t be a rebuild until Melo’s gone.

    99. Zanzibar

      My issue with the people who bash him is that I think they conveniently ignore how depleted we were of draft picks and how hard that makes it to really rebuild.

      Phil has had ONE inherited first round draft pick in all of the time that he’s been here up until now. Be real!

      Let’s not forget we probably could have had Mirotic and Chicago’s two 2015 1st round picks in a S&T for Melo.

    100. Philmelo

      but Melo’s b-ball IQ and motor are just not up to the task.

      The sad thing is that Melo’s b-ball IQ is up to the task, its his ego which isn’t.

    101. Z-man

      Let’s not forget we probably could have had Mirotic and Chicago’s two 2015 1st round picks in a S&T for Melo.

      We’ve debated this before, there is no confirmation that Chicago offered this and we rebuffed it. If you are going to criticize the guy, at least let it be about stuff that we have evidence for (like not taking Jae Crowder in the Chandler deal.)

    102. Brian Cronin

      The Bulls never made an offer because the Knicks said the entire time that they were not going to trade him. But while yes, Mirotic is speculative, it’s clear that they could have gotten the picks. They dealt the picks for Doug McDermott, ya know? They would have dealt the picks for Melo (and Tony Snell and Carlos Boozer, just for their contracts). That much is clear. Anything beyond that is up for grabs. We’ll never know because Phil had no interest in trading him, while he should have had a lot of interest in trading him.

    103. JK47

      Phil has made three godawful horrendous moves, all of which were obviously massive blunders the second they were announced:

      1. MegaMaxMelo!!! Now with No-Trade Clause!!!
      2. Derrick Rose!!! Former MVP y’all!!!
      3. Joakim Noah!!! Definitely seems like a guy with four good years still left in him!!!

      Other than those three moves, Phil is a garden variety lame ineffectual GM. But those three whoppers make him something truly special.

    104. Zanzibar

      We’ve debated this before, there is no confirmation that Chicago offered this and we rebuffed it. If you are going to criticize the guy, at least let it be about stuff that we have evidence for (like not taking Jae Crowder in the Chandler deal.)

      OK but there’s really no disputing Chicago would have given us their two 2015 picks for Melo. All of the people bemoaning our lack of picks need to acknowledge that.

    105. Zanzibar

      Phil has made three godawful horrendous moves, all of which were obviously massive blunders the second they were announced:

      1. MegaMaxMelo!!! Now with No-Trade Clause!!!

      Don’t forget the trade kicker which it makes it more difficult to trade Melo even if he were to waive the NTC. If we looked at the contract, we’d probably find Phil also agreed to deliver and pick up Melo’s dry cleaning.

    106. Z-man

      Thanks Hugo and swift. We put the microscope on the Knicks but there’s plenty of mismanagement around the league that goes under the radar. Even SA has made some questionable moves (I was not a fan of the LMA deal…he’s sort of Melo light to me and I think they are too slow and old to win a championship right now, but obviously they are the model to follow for consistently shrewd and stable management.) If you put the Knicks emblem on probably 20 teams in the league, we’re having the same discussion, just at a different point in history. Chicago? Atlanta? Miami? OKC? Lakers? Where are those teams going? Phil inherited an absolute mess, and while he has not been good, he or his successor will have something to work with if Melo is ditched, or even if not.

    107. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Phil’s been miserable but I think I’d take him over Melo. He seems to be (very slowly) learning on the job and, to be honest, while we all fantasize about Dolan hiring some great GM from outside the MSG family, that’s just unlikely to happen. It’s exceedingly likely that whoever we would replace Phil with is going to be worse than Phil, and I’m not risk-friendly enough to take those odds in the hope that Dolan pulls a Glen Sather out of his hat.

    108. Z-man

      JK47,
      The original Melo trade was 10X worse than the re-signing.
      The Amare signing was way worse than the Noah signing.
      The Rose for Lopez trade was dumb, but nowhere near as much of a godawful horrendous move as the ones above, or other moves made by other past Knicks GMs in the last 30 years. Lopez has had as bad of a season as Rose and we’d still own him for 2 years. Even if you combine the Noah deal with the Rose deal, it is still not as bad as the deals that the great Donnie Walsh engineered. You can throw the Tracy McGrady debacle into the mix. So you are essentially arguing that Phil is almost as bad as Donnie Walsh.

    109. Z-man

      And Glen Sather has had his share of detractors over his tenure and has made some clunkers too.

    110. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Yeah I’m not saying that Sather is an A+ GM, merely that he’s done a pretty decent enough job, to my mind. Especially in comparison to recent Knicks GMs.

      In draft related news Woj is reporting that Miles Bridges is heavily leaning towards returning for his sophomore year. This is funny because I bet we’re gonna be in a position to draft him next year (if he goes around 8-10, which is where I suspect we’ll end up next year) so the predictions may yet come true.

    111. Z-man

      @109, if your point is that there were better options than re-signing Melo to the deal he got, I agree, and I agreed at the time. I would have been fine with just letting him walk (although not getting something back would have been poor management as well.) I just don’t think it’s useful to accept rumor as fact to overstate his mismanagement. The signing is enough to justify criticism, regardless of what Phil could have gotten. And we’re essentially on the same page on that.

    112. Hugo Busto

      The other day we had discussion on lottery/tanking reform and I stumbled upon a gimmicky idea(not mine) that seems interesting.

      Games 1-20 (100% prob, All games count)
      Games 21-30 (90% prob., 1 game doesn’t count)
      Games 31-40 (80% prob., 2 games don’t count)
      Games 41-50 (70% prob., 3 games don’t count)
      Games 51-60 (60% prob., 4 games don’t count)
      Games 61-70 (40% prob., 6 games don’t count)
      Games 71-80 (20% prob., 8 games don’t count)
      Games 81-82 (0% prob., 2 games don’t count)

      So your record for the lottery would be determined by 25 fewer games than your overall record. And at the end of the season ping pong balls would determine which games wouldn’t count towards your lottery record. Then once those standings are figured out you have the traditional lottery system.

      Thoughts?

    113. Z-man

      It took Sather 5 years to get the Rangers into the playoffs, and they got swept in the first round in year 6. I remember fans calling for his head many times over during that stretch and criticizing many of his moves.

    114. JK47

      Say what you want about the Donnie Walsh/Amar’e/Melo iteration of the Knicks, at least that ish was watchable for a few years. At least the “win” part of “win now” happened at least a little bit. Phil didn’t even get the “boom” part of the “boom and bust” cycle to happen.

      And yeah, I realize we have all our first round picks intact and two decent young players, to which I respond with a resounding “whoop de doo.” We’re not good, and we’re not close to being good. We haven’t squandered assets but we haven’t acquired many either. This team is adrift in a sea of mediocrity with no land in sight. This is a fantastically boring era of Knick basketball.

      Thanks, Phil!

    115. Brian Cronin

      That’s really the most embarrassing part of Jackson’s whole tenure here. He specifically tried to win now instead of rebuilding and ended up with 17 wins, 32 wins and 31 wins. Luckily, he has been so bad at winning now that he at least has gotten them some good lottery picks due to his incompetence at building win now teams.

      But we’ll always have the Willy trade. That was really good.

    116. Philmelo

      It took Sather 5 years to get the Rangers into the playoffs, and they got swept in the first round in year 6. I remember fans calling for his head many times over during that stretch and criticizing many of his moves.

      Could it be that Dolan also remembers this and is giving Phil so much leeway because of it?

    117. Z-man

      No, he didn’t try to “win now.” He tried to “win now” with HUGE caveats, especially not trading first round picks. Let’s not forget how many assets were squandered in Walsh’s version of “win now.” Let’s not forget that he build a “winner” with Amare and Melo, whose combined acquisition cost this franchise a king’s ransom in talent, cap space and opportunity cost. Let’s not forget the Raymond Felton deal, the Jason Kidd deal, the Marcus Camby deal, etc., all of which cost assets/young players/opportunity cost. Let’s not forget that we were the most capped pout team in the NBA. And for 2 first-round humiliations and a monster 2nd round fiasco? That’s winning? That was fun to watch at that cost?

      Brian, take a look at your own preseason predictions for wins, and those of most prognosticators. Many “experts” had this team making the playoffs, and same for the prior teams under Jackson’s reign. Not that Phil is bailed out by this, but the “win now” aspect is not really fair. A team in true “win now” mode trades picks for veterans, period. If they don’t do that, they are balancing putting a competitive team on the floor that “might compete for a low playoff seed in a weak conference” while not going way over the cap and trading away draft picks. The only player that they gave up on is Jerian Grant, and I think that’s a marginal enough move to not pine over whatever “win now” risk was taken.

    118. Z-man

      And frankly, I think we are a “getting rid of Melo and Rose” away from interesting basketball. I have found the young guys very interesting to watch. Add 3 draft picks and an interesting signing or two to what we already have and this could be a very interesting team to watch.

      Even if we are stuck with Melo, we could be something like the team we had just before the Melo deal, the one where Amare was still playing and relatively healthy and we had lots of young talent, like Chandler, Gallo, Mozgov, etc. and lots of draft picks to look forward to. I loved that team, even though they were losing a lot just before the Melo trade. Would that be so bad?

    119. Totes McGoats

      This isn’t a popular opinion, but Phil hasn’t really been terrible- considering the hand he’s been dealt. Every front office makes bad decisions. I’m not even sure that most teams wouldn’t have given Melo that NTC. Most teams have a better structure in place. The system and environment with the Knicks has sucked major, therefore the NTC looks absolutely deplorable- even moreso than that a-year-too-late-max salary. Phil has been bad, no doubt about it. His major decisions haven’t been successful. But..regardless of if he stays or gets fired..we’re in a good spot to build moving forward. With KP/Baker/Willy/Randle/NDour/Kuz/KOQ available to develop, that’s a good thing with a decent vet or 2.

      Not the best, but not God-awful either. I still hate the power struggle and attempting to smite your players through media though.

    120. JK47

      So it was a half-assed version of “win now” that didn’t win jack fucking shit, and also did a poor job of restocking the cupboard with assets. Lose-lose scenario.

      Thanks, Phil!

    121. Brian Cronin

      No, he didn’t try to “win now.” He tried to “win now” with HUGE caveats, especially not trading first round picks.

      The only caveat was not trading first round picks. Otherwise, he had always been about balancing the future with the present, which is moronic, since this team clearly needed to rebuild from the get go. And his balancing act was clearly terrible, since it worked out to 17, 32 and 31 wins. But luckily for him (and us), he was so bad at it that they ended up with a lottery pick in 2015 and one this year. That was not his intent, but he was so bad that it worked out, which I’m grateful for.

      And that Willy trade was good! Can’t take the Willy trade away from Phil. That was a great deal.

      Not to mention that we don’t even know if he will rebuild this offseason, especially if Melo won’t agree to a deal. Hopefully he will, as it would be absurd not to, but we won’t know until it happens.

    122. Bruno Almeida

      @124

      well, we kind lost 6 years and got one semi-decent playoff run out of it, just to maybe get back to the same level this team was with the Gallinari etc. core, so that’s not so great if you ask me.

      In a vacuum? Yes, it’s not the most terrible situation we’ve had to endure as Knicks fans.

    123. DRed

      If we can dump Melo and make a savvy signing or two I think this team could be decent next year. If Melo comes back its going to be a lot harder.

    124. MSA

      … and make a savvy signing or two I think this team could be decent next year.

      You are setting the bar too high for Phil.

    125. Brian Cronin

      If we can dump Melo and make a savvy signing or two I think this team could be decent next year. If Melo comes back its going to be a lot harder.

      It really is crazy how much rests on Melo finally agreeing to be traded. Come on, Melo, you can win a title somewhere else! Just take a trade!

    126. Ingmarrr

      Phil made a mess.
      Now we have 2 young starter level players, one of them potentially all star level, 3 others who may become good bench players, all of them play strong D, a top 8 pick with about 20 percent chance at a top 3, one horrible character (Melo) and another awful contract (Noah.) I think that’s a B+ for 3 years after starting without any assets.

    127. thenoblefacehumper

      No, he didn’t try to “win now.” He tried to “win now” with HUGE caveats, especially not trading first round picks. Let’s not forget how many assets were squandered in Walsh’s version of “win now.” Let’s not forget that he build a “winner” with Amare and Melo, whose combined acquisition cost this franchise a king’s ransom in talent, cap space and opportunity cost. Let’s not forget the Raymond Felton deal, the Jason Kidd deal, the Marcus Camby deal, etc., all of which cost assets/young players/opportunity cost. Let’s not forget that we were the most capped pout team in the NBA. And for 2 first-round humiliations and a monster 2nd round fiasco? That’s winning? That was fun to watch at that cost?

      Well first of all a lot of those moves were Grunwald. More importantly though, they did actually lead to a 54 win team that was probably one of the 5 or so most likely teams to win a championship that season. You can reasonably wonder if getting into that range (basically, only a true contender if you’re fairly lucky) is worth mortgaging the future (to some extent) for, but Grunwald undeniably put together a good team.

      Phil Jackson has tried to do that and failed so miserably that how miserably he failed wound up being the only silver lining.

    128. BigBlueAL

      There is now way the Amar’e signing was worse than Noah. The Knicks had a ton of cap space and signed Amar’e because they had nothing else on the roster at the moment. He was very good his first 2 seasons before the injuries and yet even with his contract on the salary cap the Knicks were able to put together a 54 win team.

      Noah was a horrible signing from the minute it was announced plus it was made to replace a solid player in Robin Lopez who was foolishly traded away leading to Phil thinking he had to sign Noah. I would much rather keep Melo than Phil because Melo has only 2 years left on his contract and the final year is a player option so he could opt-out after next season so it could only mean 1 more year of Melo. Preferably it would be nice to let Philo go, hire a real GM/President who makes a good trade with Melo but that’s a fantasy so for me the lesser of 2 evils is keeping Melo and letting his contract run out rather than keeping Phil who will continue to look for “triangle” players.

    129. Z-man

      Brian, it’s more than just not trading #1 picks, its also about not trading young guys with potential for veterans and not getting into salary cap hell. That the balanced “win now” strategy didn’t result in wins is not a big deal. Again, you predicted 42 wins, and JK47 predicted 37-41 wins. Even Jowles said 37 wins, with caveats, and was too skittish to bet the under like he said he would.

      This is not nearly as bad as when the team botched the Lin deal (by not locking him up before he got that poison pill offer) and by signing Felton and trading for Bargnani. Now THOSE were win-now moves that went awry.

      I have no problem with criticizing the moves and the strategy, but that the team underperformed almost everyone’s expectations is not a valid criticism of Phil’s moves in and of themselves. The more valid criticism is that even if they did win, it would have been bad for the team. It has actually turned out better that they are losing, although I wouldn’t give Phil credit for that either.

    130. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Re: Amar’e vs. Noah signings: We’re basically comparing literally the two worst contracts of the 2010s so they’re both awful. But we did get ~50% of an All-Star season from Amar’e, and we’ve gotten ~50% of a profoundly average season from Joakim, so I’d say Joakim’s signing was worse, so far.

    131. JK47

      The “balanced win now strategy” sucked because everybody could see it would not lead to actual winning, and it came with a high opportunity cost. The smarter move would have been to collect lots of assets instead of farting around with what we’re now euphemistically calling a “balanced win now strategy.” We have fewer assets than we could have because the clown GM thought it would be a better idea to invest in Rose and Noah.

      Some people here don’t understand the concept of opportunity cost and never will, so I’ve given up trying to explain it.

    132. Brian Cronin

      I have no problem with criticizing the moves and the strategy, but that the team underperformed almost everyone’s expectations is not a valid criticism of Phil’s moves in and of themselves. The more valid criticism is that even if they did win, it would have been bad for the team. It has actually turned out better that they are losing, although I wouldn’t give Phil credit for that either.

      They’re both bad. It was bad when I thought they were going to be mediocre, but it’s still bad to not even hit your moronic original goal. In other words, it was a terrible idea to try to win now with a veteran team that was clearly not going to win now, but it’s also embarrassing to not even hit the ridiculous goals they were shooting for. Luckily for us, of course, not hitting those goals gave them a lottery pick, so it worked out as well as it possibly could.

    133. SJK

      Brian, it’s more than just not trading #1 picks, its also about not trading young guys with potential for veterans and not getting into salary cap hell.

      Yeah, but Phil did trade young guys with potential for veterans (see: Grant, Jerian) and got us into an unfavorable cap situation (see: Noah, Joakim).

      I would agree that we aren’t in that bad of a situation right now. But we could be in a much better situation if we had just:

      1) Not re-signed Melo. We would’ve sucked again and still been in position to draft KP.
      2) Not traded Grant for DRose and signed Noah. We would’ve had more cap flexibility and an extra young player with potential.

    134. Z-man

      Again, it’s not fair to say that Walsh/Grunwald “succeeded” at anything. They did NOT put together a good team, only a fool’s gold team with ancient players who got them some of those 54 wins and then one by one disintegrated into dust (first Rasheed, then Kurt, then Kidd.) They did not draft or retain a single young player that we had to look forward to. They were capped out and had almost no picks.

      And BBA, respectfully, I disagree totally on the Amare trade. The last 4 years of that deal ate up 30+% of the cap for almost nothing in return. And it’s not like it wasn’t predictable, PHX wouldn’t re-sign nim after a near-MVP year and no one would even insure his contract. And using the cap space on him made it more tempting to break the bank for Melo as our second star. In terms of setting the franchise back, His was much worse.

    135. Hugo Busto

      “With KP/Baker/Willy/Randle/NDour/Kuz/KOQ available to develop”

      Are Baker, Kuz, Randle anything to write home about? I would say Randle may have the highest potential of the 3 but it’s not really saying much. Every time I watched Kuz he would be getting worked on D and you would expect with that liability he would be a decent shooter but he only shot 31% from 3. Baker??
      And KOQ for whatever reason has never averaged more than 16mpg in his career. Maybe because he has a high foul rate but he’s got to get minutes to work on that. And it’s not like Joakim and his 20mpg is going to just magically disappear.

    136. Z-man

      So long as you acknowledge that YOU thought at the beginning of the season that they WOULD hit that goal, and that you were just as moronically wrong as Jax for thinking so.

      The difference between me and you is that I admit that I was moronically wrong for thinking that this team could win 42 games, and so it would be hypocritical to criticize Jackson for thinking the same thing that I thought. I think this independently of my opinion of his strategy (and I’m on the record for criticizing the Melo Mega Max NTC, the Noah deal, and the Rose deal, to different degrees, so I definitely am not in the “Thanks Phil!” camp.

    137. djphan

      the grunwald team’s were pretty good …. it just had a short run due to billups getting hurt and of course amare but there wasn’t any conceivable way of extending it given the hand that was dealt… but they were by far the most entertaining teams we’ve had this century…

      bargs trade aside.. we had the lin era and a season where we were legitimately playing good ball…

    138. Brian Cronin

      So long as you acknowledge that YOU thought at the beginning of the season that they WOULD hit that goal, and that you were just as moronically wrong as Jax for thinking so.

      The difference between me and you is that I admit that I was moronically wrong for thinking that this team could win 42 games, and so it would be hypocritical to criticize Jackson for thinking the same thing that I thought. I think this independently of my opinion of his strategy (and I’m on the record for criticizing the Melo Mega Max NTC, the Noah deal, and the Rose deal, to different degrees, so I definitely am not in the “Thanks Phil!” camp.

      The moronic thing was trying to go for that goal in the first place. I’m happy they didn’t reach it. It’s still embarrassing for him, since he put together a veteran, mediocre team and then it didn’t even end up being mediocre. But it was a better result than I expected, which I’m quite grateful for.

    139. thenoblefacehumper

      There are many more ways to mortgage the future in favor of the present than trading away first round picks. Jerian Grant is the easiest example because he was a first round pick 11 months before Jackson traded him for nothing.

      Another example is signing Arron Afflalo and Derrick Williams instead of getting Sacramento’s unprotected 2019 first rounder, two swaps, and Stauskas. Even if this specific deal was only made available to Philly, it’s not like it was the only “rent out cap space for assets” opportunity that’s been available since Jackson took over. There have been many, and Phil Jackson has always opted to sign mediocre-to-bad free agents in order to try and “win now” instead. You can replace Afflalo and William with Noah and Lee. It’s always been the same shit; trying to “win now” with teams that everyone with half a brain knows won’t be good.

      These are the kind of opportunities Grunwald passed up as well. They’re the kind of opportunities every team passes up when they decide they want to be players in the free agent market. It’s a major fuck up, though, when you pass up these opportunities AND predictably have absolutely nothing to show for it. Grunwald put together a 54 win team. Jackson put together a 32 win team, and it’s not like anyone besides er and ruruland thought it would be significantly better.

    140. thenoblefacehumper

      So long as you acknowledge that YOU thought at the beginning of the season that they WOULD hit that goal, and that you were just as moronically wrong as Jax for thinking so.

      The difference between me and you is that I admit that I was moronically wrong for thinking that this team could win 42 games, and so it would be hypocritical to criticize Jackson for thinking the same thing that I thought

      No, because we thought going for 42 wins was idiotic and would’ve been a disaster. Jackson would’ve been a moron for aiming for that goal even if he had achieved it.

    141. Hugo Busto

      Geez I totally forgot about the Aaron Afflalo signing, he was already showing signs of decline and definitely wasn’t held in high regard in most circles.

      But he fit that triangle mold right? :)

    142. Z-man

      I get that you’re happy they didn’t reach it but there is no getting around that you thought they would. Whether it is embarrassing or not for Phil is irrelevant to whether or not he was justified after making the deals in thinking that this team would win enough to make the playoffs. YOU thought that they would, so why do you criticize HIM for thinking they would? Shouldn’t you be just as embarrassed as an analyst?

      (the 42 wins you and I predicted would have had them tied for the 6 seed)

    143. BigBlueAL

      If Amar’e didn’t get signed someone was going to get that money because that summer the Knicks had a ton of cap space and basically nobody on the roster. His contract did not hamstring them that much. Could it have been put to better use?? Of course.

      BUT there was absolutely no reason whatsoever to sign Noah and let alone give him the insane contract they have. That contract could very well prevent the Knicks from having a pretty good team in the next couple of years. Plus again they already had a decent player on a fair contract in Lopez plus guys like O’Quinn, KP and Hernangomez on the roster already. The Noah signing is by far the dumbest move the Knicks have made since Isiah was GM.

    144. Z-man

      thfh, I’m saying that the criticism of the strategy is separate from the criticism of the w-l outcome. There are those here who thought this team would not win any more than last year. Brian was not one of them. Neither was I. Were you?

    145. Bruno Almeida

      The problem I have with the argument that Phil wasn’t as terrible as past GMs is that so far he has done literally the same everyone else did, bring back veterans, fail at stockpiling relevant assets and give away terrible contracts to bad players.

      People are excited about the guys Phil didn’t think were even going to be rotation players, like Hernangomez, Ndour, Randle, Kuz or Baker, and aside from Hernangomez every team in the league has somewhat young dudes like them either in the back of their benches or the D-League.

      The real “moves” he made have brought Noah, Rose, Lee on a 4-year contract and Jennings, who’s already gone.

      Praising Phil for not trading first rounders away is like me praising my 8-year old niece for not setting the house on fire, that’s at most a D+ for me… yes he can still turn it around and the past GMs have mostly been worse than him, but it’s still nothing to be happy about.

    146. Z-man

      There are a bunch of ways the Knicks could have used the cap space rather than signing Amare. But in any event, both moves were franchise-killing. At least there’s an outside chance that Noah comes back and gives us some valuable minutes and mentoring. But I’ll defer to the community on this one, not a huge disagreement here.

    147. lavor postell

      Phil didn’t think Hernangomez would be a rotation player? He compared him to Luis Scola and traded two seconds specifically to get him. He clearly thought plenty of him.

      Also he hasn’t repeated every past mistake just on the virtue of not trading picks. Doesn’t mean he’s good or that we should retain him, but comparing him to past regimes because he handed out bad contracts makes no sense. Bad GM’s around the league give out bad contracts all the time. That’s just aa hallmark of bad management, not something the Knicks have some monopoly on.

    148. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      I like the way some on here are saying that maybe Phil can still improve. Talk about hedging your bets! I know that the second the Knicks turn it around you’ll be saying “Look he finally learned. He finally listened to us.” When what it really was was his young guys developing under his system plus a long awaited draft pipeline finally being available to him.

    149. Totes McGoats

      Are Baker, Kuz, Randle anything to write home about?

      No, they’re not. My thinking is that they are competent players already and they are worth the investment as quality depth is important. I don’t expect either to be good starters full time..but I do expect them to good role players on the bench with solid spot starter potential. You just don’t dump guys like that. Teams like the Spurs and Dubs value players like that. The Knicks should too. I think we’ve proven that just having names means jack shit. When you build a team..you build it all the way through.

    150. Z-man

      BA, no one is “praising” Phil, the argument is about modulating the criticism.
      The Courtney Lee deal is not terrible, probably a slight overpay.
      The Rose deal is an overpay for sure, but it basically results in a re-acquisition of Lopez’s cap space. Unless you really believe in Grant’s potential.
      The Noah deal is a disaster. No silver lining there. Any production we get from him in the future is whipped cream on horseshit.
      The O’Quinn deal is a home run.
      The Hernangomez deal is a home run.
      The Jennings deal was fine.
      The Lance deal is probably an overpay, but of little consequence.
      The win-now component of Phil’s strategy was stupid, but caveats made it less harmful than those of prior regimes.
      The team is in a reasonably good position to be much improved in 5 years.
      Most of us were wrong about lots of things over the years on this blog.

    151. thenoblefacehumper

      thfh, I’m saying that the criticism of the strategy is separate from the criticism of the w-l outcome. There are those here who thought this team would not win any more than last year. Brian was not one of them. Neither was I. Were you?

      I think I predicted 38 wins, but it doesn’t matter. I thought mortgaging the future for an attempt to win an amount of games in the low 40s was an idiotic goal, so much so that we would be in considerably worse position had Jackson actually achieved it. That Jackson failed so spectacularly does help mitigate some of the negative consequences that would’ve resulted, but the whole endeavor cost us multiple opportunities.

    152. Z-man

      But it’s important in judging Phil’s overall approach. By not trading first round picks (and actually reacquiring a 2nd rounder in a potentially very deep draft) Phil hedged his bets on the win-now component. He didn’t go all in like his predecessors. When you say that you’re happy he failed, what does that really say? It says that there’s a legit plan B in case of failure. With Checketts, Isiah, Walsh and Grunwald, there was no plan B, there was only win now, period. And we all suffered through those seasons where after failing miserably, we had to watch some other team draft in our spot. So yes, Phil deserves credit for not doing what other “win now” GMs did (including the very highly regarded Donnie Walsh) which is to win now at the cost of any hope for a rebuild through the draft. It’s the potential for a plan B that makes this scenario different.

    153. Bruno Almeida

      I agree with you Z-Man, and my word choices are generally crappy overall for someone who studied as much english as I did, but I still think the fact that people are even trying to find solace in the fact that he did not destroy everything is something that would only happen in a traumatized fan base like ours.

    154. Brian Cronin

      Jackson’s Plan A was moronic in all three years here. I am not giving him credit that his plans failed each time, to the benefit of the team. He could have kept all his first round picks AND actually had non-awful Plan A’s. Then he would get some credit, even if things didn’t work out.

    155. Z-man

      Once Melo was signed, it was a given that the team would try to “win now” during Melo’s window. So that he tried to do so is not illogical, and that he failed at that is not surprising, given what he had to work with. He just shot himself in the foot with the Noah signing. None of the others are all that consequential. But that he didn’t abandon Plan B like his predecessors is praiseworthy.

      And clearly, he is way past the “coddle Melo” stage. A GM going public with criticism is a first during the Melo experience.

      I also think that the Hornacek signing goes under-appreciated. Go back and read the threads from that time. Nearly everyone believed that Phil would sign either Thibs or Rambis. In fact, that was one of the reasons for optimism going into the season b/c Hornacek was not from the triangle camp and would connect with Rose and Jennings and run more pnr.

    156. Z-man

      And Brian, you said many times that any GM that Dolan hired at that time would have re-signed Melo. So the win-now would have been in effect anyway. If you are saying that he should have alienated Melo earlier, fine, but he’d then look even stupider for signing him in the first place.

    157. Ben R

      I say getting rid of Phil is more important.

      Getting rid of Melo helps us short term more than firing Phil but both have to go to truly fix the team. If we fire Phil and get an above average GM then getting rid of Melo would probably be priority number 1 for the new GM and since our new GM is above average we would come out smelling good rather than whatever pile of garbage Phil will most likely get us.

    158. JK47

      Phil signed Melo, and he “negotiated” the friggin’ horrible NTC deal that Melo ended up with. That is on Phil and nobody else. If there was an up-front demand from Dolan that Phil re-sign Melo, then Phil should have turned down the job.

    159. Cock Jowles, The Nostradumbass Who Still Beat Your Weak Preseason Picks

      Re: Amar’e vs. Noah signings: We’re basically comparing literally the two worst contracts of the 2010s so they’re both awful. But we did get ~50% of an All-Star season from Amar’e, and we’ve gotten ~50% of a profoundly average season from Joakim, so I’d say Joakim’s signing was worse, so far.

      While I was apoplectic over both signings, this dude lays claim to worst contract of the decade, and he’s still got 3 years left:

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parsoch01.html

    160. Z-man

      I would guess that it was probably an up-front expectation and Phil probably thought it was reasonable. I think Phil legit believed that he could transform Melo into a great triangle player. I think Phil thought the NTC, trade kicker, etc. were not relevant, b/c he believed in Melo’s talent and his own magical transformative powers. I think he felt that Chandler was not a good triangle fit, and that he got fair value in return for him. I think Phil grossly overestimated his own abilities as a GM out of the box, and that he grossly underestimated the difficulty of building a playoff-level team. I also think that aside from the Melo deal, Phil has had free reign and has no one to blame (or credit) but himself for anything that has transpired.

      I do wonder whether Mills has any sway over Phil’s opinion, and whether he listened to him or some other advisors in making the Rose and Noah deals. I doubt that Melo’s OK meant anything real to him.

      In any case, I’m not sure getting rid of Phil makes things better. What guarantee is there that Dolan doesn’t bring in the next Isiah, or a puppet that allows him to force his will on the team (Donnie, are you listening?)

    161. Grocer

      I’d keep Phil over Melo, for the same reasons as others. Melo leaving is pure upside, Phil leaving could easily end making things worse. It’s close though, I can easily see Phil trading Melo then over spending on another aging ‘star’ assuming he’s got the cap space.

    162. Z-man

      I think getting rid of Melo changes the whole dynamic of the team, i.e. we’d see a lot more of what we’ve been watching over the last 20 or so games. That’s good enough for me.

    163. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      @166

      I think you can plausibly claim any of Amar’e, Parsons, Noah, and Deng (am I missing any others?) as the worst contract of the 2010s. Parsons has been absolutely the worst but he’s only 28 and has a semblance of a chance to turn it around versus our aging fossil in Jo Noah so I give the slight advantage to Parsons. But it’s true that he’s been worse so far.

    164. DRed

      I think Noah was probably more productive than Melo when he could actually get on the floor. he should be okay in his weird way for 30 or 40 games next year before he gets hurt again. Or maybe this shoulder injury will totally ruin him and he’ll retire. I’m trying to be optimistic

    165. the don nelson era

      One of the things I find especially strange about Phil is, by all accounts he delegated a lot of the substantive X’s and O’s of coaching to Tex Winter. How is it Phil didn’t find someone to do the substantive GM-ing while he does whatever it is he does? Why is Steve Mills our front office Rambis?

    166. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      From my understanding Mills actually does the majority of talking with other teams/players but then runs everything by Phil. Or so I recall.

    167. ClashFan

      The Noah situation has definitely now moved well into the realm of Dark Comedy.

      Speaking of comedy, saying that you’d rather have Isiah than Phil as team prez. Uh, what? Absurdist comedy, maybe. Actually, both of those guys are Sophoclean Greek tragedies.

      Phil vs. Melo. Now that one is interesting, but I’ll take Phil. Never wanted Melo, and now he’s a cancer.

      But why do we have to choose from such awful dilemmas? Oh yeah, that’s right, Dolan! (Say that like Seinfeld used to say, Newman!)
      :-)

    168. BigBlueAL

      Everyone likes to say the Knicks play better w/o Melo but you do realize that they were 0-10 last season and are 2-6 this season when Melo doesn’t play.

    169. DRed

      If they won those games at a meloful clip you’d expect them to go 3-5, so it’s not clear to me there’s a difference

    170. SJK

      Melo plays tonight, scores 40 points and wins us the game. The Wolves lose, we lose the coin flip to them and end up picking 7th in the draft. De’Aaron Fox gets drafted 6th overall, and we settle for Lauri Markannen.

      Anyone seen this movie before?

    171. BigBlueAL

      Don’t get me wrong, they suck with or without him. But I guess I’ve always kinda liked Melo and thinks he gets way too much crap on this site so I try to defend him a bit whenever I can.

    172. DRed

      Whether it was lack of effort, unhappiness with Phil/Horny or just age this year’s Melo really sucked.

    173. Philmelo

      I personally don’t give a shit about these doomsday scenarios because I am not sold on Fox like y’all here. I am perfectly fine picking 8th and taking Ntilikina.

    174. Hugo Busto

      Fox’s floor is like Elfrid Payton.

      I miss the old Knicks who lead the league in 3 point attempts

    175. TheOakmanCometh

      Hopefully his asking to play tonight is a sign that he’s resigned himself to being traded and wants one last hurrah at the Garden.

    176. MSA

      I personally don’t give a shit about these doomsday scenarios because I am not sold on Fox like y’all here. I am perfectly fine picking 8th and taking Ntilikina.

      +1

      I would also trade our pick for both Kings or Blazers 1st too.

      After Ball and Fultz I think all those kids have too many holes in their games to be considered a sure bet in the NBA. I rather increase our chances with multiple picks

    177. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      I would def take Frank + Isaac for our pick if at #4 or below but I doubt Sacto is dumb enough for something like that.

    178. Brian Cronin

      And Brian, you said many times that any GM that Dolan hired at that time would have re-signed Melo. So the win-now would have been in effect anyway. If you are saying that he should have alienated Melo earlier, fine, but he’d then look even stupider for signing him in the first place.

      Dolan has since said that wasn’t the case, and honestly, as douchey as Dolan is, he came off as pretty convincing when he said it (as he offered up first saying how he had never given total control to anyone before, which he had never conceded before now and, in fact, had pushed pretty hard against for years, so conceding it now made him seem a lot more believable than normal).

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