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Wednesday, October 18, 2017

Knicks Morning News (2017.03.14)

  • [NYDN] John Andariese, longtime Knicks broadcaster, dead at 78
    (Monday, March 13, 2017 7:39:25 PM)

    “Johnny Hoops” has died.

  • [NYDN] Why Phil Jackson may be looking to dump Hornacek after the season
    (Monday, March 13, 2017 7:28:29 PM)

    Phil Jackson has never really been sold on Jeff Hornacek as his head coach. That was painfully obvious from the beginning.

  • [NYDN] Knicks – Pacers postponement would be up to NBA
    (Monday, March 13, 2017 1:32:53 PM)

    The Knicks haven’t been able to stop the losing themselves, so maybe a snowstorm will save them Tuesday.

  • [NYTimes] Thin Lines of the N.C.A.A. Women’s Bracket Bend Under the Weight of UConn
    (Tuesday, March 14, 2017 1:42:29 AM)

    The Huskies, on a 107-game win streak and seeking their fifth straight national title, are the No. 1 seed in the Bridgeport Region. First up is the Albany Great Danes.

  • [NYTimes] A Potential Surprise Ending, and the Best N.B.A. Games This Week
    (Monday, March 13, 2017 6:54:57 PM)

    The Warriors and the Cavaliers are getting some unexpected conference competition. Utah is at Cleveland on Thursday night.

  • [SNY Knicks] Longtime Knicks broadcaster John Andariese dies at 78
    (Monday, March 13, 2017 10:14:13 PM)

    John Andariese, a New York Knicks broadcaster for more than 35 years, died Monday. He was 78.

  • [SNY Knicks] Who deserves the blame for the Knicks’ season?
    (Monday, March 13, 2017 6:26:48 PM)

  • [SNY Knicks] Porzingis notes ‘confusion’ as Knicks fall 15 games under .500
    (Monday, March 13, 2017 9:15:41 AM)

    Kristaps Porzingis noted “confusion” on both ends of the court during New York’s loss to the Nets on Sunday as the Knicks fell 15 games under .500.

  • [SNY Knicks] TheKnicksBlog Podcast: The Dog Days
    (Thursday, March 16, 2017 2:50:18 PM)

    Anthony Donahue and Moke Hamilton are officially in the dog days of the season as the guys discuss what Knicks fans can look forward to for the rest of the year.

  • [NY Newsday] John Andariese, longtime Knicks TV-radio analyst, dies at 78
    (Tuesday, March 14, 2017 12:07:04 AM)

    John Andariese, a popular, longtime Knicks TV and radio analyst, died on Monday at age 78, the team announced.

  • [NY Newsday] Kristaps Porzingis, Knicks struggling to keep heads above water
    (Monday, March 13, 2017 7:22:59 PM)

    Kristaps Porzingis could have gone with the infamous words of former Knick Micheal Ray Richardson and said, “The ship be sinking.”

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks Insider podcast: Confusion ‘from top to bottom’ is a big problem
    (Monday, March 13, 2017 11:50:00 AM)

    Just when you think it can’t get worse for the Knicks, it has.

  • [NY Newsday] Confusion in inverted triangle as Knicks lose to Nets
    (Monday, March 13, 2017 8:53:00 AM)

    On a night when the Nets honored the memory of Brooklyn rapper Biggie Smalls, the home team came up big and the Knicks came up very small.

  • [ESPN] Tuesday’s Knicks News: Porzingis must be the priority moving forward
    (Tuesday, March 14, 2017 4:59:26 AM)

    Tuesday’s Knicks News: Porzingis must be the priority moving forward

  • [ESPN] Knicks HOF broadcaster Andariese dies at 78
    (Monday, March 13, 2017 10:08:02 PM)

    Knicks HOF broadcaster Andariese dies at 78

  • [NYPost] Knicks are an utter disaster but they have one reason for hope
    (Monday, March 13, 2017 7:26:55 PM)

    There is only one way this can get worse for the Knicks, of course. They aren’t making the playoffs again, for the third time in three years under Phil Jackson, for the 12th time in the 16 years since Jeff Van Gundy’s last full season as coach in 2000-01. They are a chore to watch,…

  • [NYPost] This picture shows exactly how Knicks blew Nets game
    (Monday, March 13, 2017 6:28:48 PM)

    Sometimes, the solution is as obvious as a hand in front of the face. And sometimes, the solution is a hand in front of the face. Take the Knicks’ 3-point defense Sunday. The Nets hit a team-record 14 in the first half, many of them completely wide open. The Nets finished the night with 19…

  • [NYPost] John Andariese, beloved Knicks broadcaster, dead at 78
    (Monday, March 13, 2017 5:25:33 PM)

    Words were hard to come by for Marv Albert on Monday night. A few hours earlier he had learned John Andariese, his longtime broadcast partner both on television and radio, had died at his home in Florida after a long battle with dementia. Andariese, the Knicks analyst for nearly 35 years, was 78. The Knicks…

  • [NYPost] What’s driving Porzingis insane is only half the Knicks’ problem
    (Monday, March 13, 2017 11:48:54 AM)

    Interesting couple weeks for the Knicks, huh? They’ve all but signed an official concession to playoff elimination – the tragic number is 10, by the way. Additionally, they have lost to every team not named the Magic since Feb. 27, have had the team president personally provide triangle instruction and have surrendered at least 104…

  • 72 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.03.14)

    1. Totes McGoats

      Wow. Rest Well Johnny Hoops. I didn’t realize he was 78..he didn’t look a day over 55 maybe 60. I always enjoyed his takes..so full of love and respect for the game.

    2. stratomatic

      Ricky Rubio had 22 points on 8 of 15 shooting and 19 assists. 19 assists is a great week for Rose. #justsayin

    3. chrisk06811

      right except we didn’t have anything Minny wanted for Rubio, except our 1, which we were smart to keep

    4. GoldClub

      Based on the reports it is pretty clear we could have gotten Rubio straight up for Rose. That said, if Rubio won us 5 extra games (and I think he would have) that would be the difference between say the 7 pick and the 14 pick which is the difference between Fox/Frank and Ferguson. Fox/Frank (+ a 15pct chance at a top 3 pick) is more valuable…end of story.

    5. Philmelo

      The funny thing is that according to more recent mocks Isaac is slipping into that #9 territory we might have occupied with Rubio playing for us. Its all speculative though.

    6. stratomatic

      Fox/Frank (+ a 15pct chance at a top 3 pick) is more valuable…end of story.

      Can’t agree.

      Except for some exceptional prospects here or there, the draft is largely a crap shoot. A moderately higher pick does not improve your chances of getting a much better player by that much. I’m not saying I wouldn’t rather have the 7th pick than the 14 pick, but over the long haul it won’t matter that much. The 14th pick will turn out to be an equal or better player than the 7th pick often enough to make the difference lower than perceptions. Trading for Rubio would have been a 100% probability of having a solid young PG and still getting a good pick. If Jackson could have made that trade and blew it by insisting for more and then Minny pulled out, imo it was his worst move since he came to NY (and there have been quite a few).

    7. Accidentank 2017

      The thing is Rubio might play his way off the trade block which would suck so much.

      After watching my fair share of Frank Ntilikina highlights, I’ve come to the conclusion that he’s definitely a shooting guard long term, but a shooting guard in the mold of James Harden. James is 6’5″ with a 6’10” wingspan and Frank is very likely to measure similarly. The only thing is that James is around 220 and Frank is around 180. Of course Frank is only 18 and gaining 25-35 pounds wouldn’t shock me, and Frank has the potential to be an all world defender. James was clearly more polished as an individual talent when he came out(the AAU culture develops egos, personalities, and scoring while Europe is teaching Frank spacing, defense, and teamwork in general), but he also got drafted after two years in college while Frank would be a true freshman right now. Long term, I’m pretty sold on Ntilikina. He’s a smart kid and his upside as a 2 and defense alone put him #4 on my big board behind Fultz, Isaac, and Ball in that order. Only reason Ball is 3rd is because his father is a wildcard to me, otherwise I’d rank him #2.

      But yes. You heard it here first; Frank Ntilikina reminds me of a better defending version of James Harden and we need to develop his talents similarly. Trade for Rubio, draft him, and let him learn the game as a 6th man behind Rubio and Lee (who would be the best backcourt we’ve had in a very long time).

    8. GoldClub

      Isaac certainly is intriguing but I think hard to pass up one of the top (top5) tier PG prospects for the chance of having another unicorn (seems like Isaac is a high risk/high reward prospect). In any event, always better to have a higher pick.

    9. Knickerbicker

      (a) How likely is Hornacek to be the fall guy for this season?
      (b) How deserved would it be?
      (c) What is the most objective basis on which to answer (b)?

    10. Accidentank 2017

      The Knicks’ starting 5 needs to be Rubio, Lee, Isaac, Porzingis, and Hernangomez with Ntilikina as the 6th man. On draft night we will acquire Rubio and the Wolves’ pick and Rubio in a mega deal where Love goes back home to Minnesota and Melo goes to Cleveland for a year or two. We’d be the super Euro squad. I’m convinced this is the way life should be.

    11. Z-man

      Funny how, as Brian C mentioned in a previous thread, how DX has us picking Markkanen at #7. He looks like a phenomenal offensive weapon, but sort of redundant with KP in the fold. His D and rebounding seem very suspect, and for now, he struggles going right. He could be anything from Steve Novak to Dirk Nowitzki. A front line rotation of KP, Willy and Markkanen would score lots of points, but would give up lots of points too. Will he be the best player available at #7?

      Isaac looks like he has limitless potential, but there isn’t a lot of hype about him. Is he a low-IQ player?

    12. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      So given a choice of Ntilikina or Isaac, which would you choose?

      I really doubt we’ll be able to acquire Rubio after his recent breakout but we can only hope.

      Why does Isaac get so little love everywhere else but here?

      Horny definitely gets some blame for trying to run a fast, young man’s game with old, slow veterans. And for not stressing defense enough. But I still like him.

    13. djphan

      hornacek needs to stay the coach… i sincerely hope he gets a full season with next year’s roster to see what he can do… i think derrick rose was a horrible fit for his offense…. and obviously rambis should not be anywhere near this team….

    14. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      DX doesn’t account for team need they just slot the players in the order they thing they’ll go regardless of teams until closer to the draft. If any other team were in 7th it’d say they’re drafting Lauri too.

      Markkannen is really good but his defense is poor and he’s not as athletic as KP. I really see him as a Ryan Anderson type–which is really good, don’t get me wrong–but not what we need at the moment.

      I’d take Isaac over Frank. Isaac is a high iq player btw, he’s just underhyped because he’s the third guy on a deep FSU team where Dwayne Bacon and XRM get all the touches/talk.

      Pretty sure he plays SF and small ball PF when he’s on the floor w Bacon.

    15. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      De’Aaron Fox and Luka Doncic together would be absolutely disgusting and would cover up Doncics defensive limitations–he’s a good defender with good iq and fundamentals but his lateral quickness is a bit lacking.

      As would Frank and Doncic but they both will play SG I think.

      We’re not getting him but perchance to dream.

    16. Z-man

      I’d hesitate to compare Frank to James Harden, because Harden is such a unique offensive player, maybe on the verge of being one of the greatest offensive players ever. The sample size is so tiny with Frank, only 28 attempted 3’s (Harden had 271 attempted 3’s in college before being drafted.) I think that if we draft Frank, it should be with the assumption that he will be a PG (perhaps in the current Harden mold) in the NBA. And there were already signs in college that Harden had PG skills (4.2assts/game as a sophomore.) That said, I think that Frank has a very high floor of at least a serviceable NBA rotation player, based on his high IQ, physical tools and defensive skills. I’d be totally fine with him at #7 but definitely would groom him to be a PG, even despite his low assist numbers and low ast/tov ratio.

    17. JK47

      Isaac was supposed to have been a raw “late bloomer” type but he has been very productive for Florida State. He scores pretty efficiently (TS% north of .600), he rebounds, he blocks shots, he plays defense. And he still looks a little bit raw, but he has such fluid and effortless movement. He runs like a gazelle, covers a lot of ground very quickly, and for a guy his size he’s very agile, moves well left-to-right. Compared to a guy like Brandon Ingram, who has that “giraffe on ice skates” look, Isaac looks like he is way more coordinated and way more of a natural athlete.

    18. Philmelo

      Isaac is a very timid scorer in the Florida State offense. A part of that is that the offense is dominated by Bacon but another part of it is that his handle is a little suspect. He’s perfectly fine to fit into the system they run, play defense and grab rebounds. From what I see he’s one of the elite defenders in this class with tons of versatility to defend either forward position.

      And since we need to draft/acquire two long, athletic wing defenders who can also rebound to round out our front court with KP and Willy moving forward, I believe getting defensively versatile forwards with high ceilings like Jonathan Isaac and OG Annunoby to rotate at the #3 and #4 spots would help this team a lot going forward. Our biggest problem is that we are by far the weakest defensive team at the small foward position in the NBA. Kuz, Lance, and Melo respectively have the 64th, 72nd and 77th worst defensive real plus-minus out 81 small forwards in the NBA this season.

      That’s just completely unacceptable in today’s NBA where the #3 is the premier scoring position with top notch scoring threats like Lerbon, Kawhi, Giannis, KD, Butler, George, Hayward, etc. manning the spot.

    19. Philmelo

      As would Frank and Doncic but they both will play SG I think.

      Wouldn’t matter since Doncic is a ball dominant guard. He could be the primary ball handler and Frank could play off him, especially in the kind of Triangle offense we run. This tandem has been a dream of mine since I saw Doncic play. I’d tank a whole season just to see it happen.

    20. bobneptune

      That’s just completely unacceptable in today’s NBA where the #3 is the premier scoring position with top notch scoring threats like Lerbon, Kawhi, Giannis, KD, Butler, George, Hayward, etc. manning the spot.

      The 3 has always been a premier scoring spot in the league from Bird to Wilkens, to Alex English to Bernard King, Worthy, David Thompson……

    21. Jack Bauer

      The Knicks are going nowhere without a competent point guard. Let’s hope they draft one or can lowball Minnesota and get Rubio in the offseason. Otherwise it will be rinse and repeat next season.

    22. Philmelo

      The 3 has always been a premier scoring spot in the league from Bird to Wilkens, to Alex English to Bernard King, Worthy, David Thompson……

      In the 1990s, not so much. It was more an era for bigmen and interior defense/rebounding was key. We could play a guy like slower, short guy Mason at the 3 back then for example and not get too burned at the wing. Nowadays he’d be a strict 4.

    23. Philmelo

      Frank Ntilikina’s game is not to similar to James Harden’s game in many respects. Harden was an efficient finisher at the rim coming out of college, Frank isn’t right now. Harden was an efficient isolation scorer, Frank is not. Harden was a high usage player, Frank is not. Harden was not good shooter coming off screens, Frank is excellent at it. Harden was a savant at drawing fouls, Frank barely draws any.

      But, with that said, if there’s a player Frank should emulate its James Harden. Since Frank has length but lacks explosive first steps or strong movement to his weak hand side (Harden is a lefty, Frank is a righty) he could greatly benefit from perfecting the great assortment of hesitation moves and change of pace dribbles, that Harden often uses to get by players. By learning and mastering these crafty maneuvers he could actually become a ball dominant guard in an offense that doesn’t mind his high turnover rates.

    24. Will the Thrill

      I don’t think that Isaac will be a bad player (he may end up being the best player in the draft), but he and KP seem redundant to me. Based off of what I’ve seen, he plays like a 5 inch shorter version of KP. He is more agile, but I don’t think he is quick enough to play SF in the NBA (he didn’t even play much SF in college). His rebounding is nice, but I can’t really see that fully translating due to his KP-like frame. I know that choosing the BPA is the smart choice, but I think this is a special case where we would either have to choose KP + Willy, or choose Isaac + Willy/ Isaac + KP.

      I would choose Fultz, Ball, Smith, Jackson, Fox, and maybe Frank over Isaac.

    25. Philmelo

      I don’t think that Isaac will be a bad player (he may end up being the best player in the draft), but he and KP seem redundant to me. Based off of what I’ve seen, he plays like a 5 inch shorter version of KP.

      A five inch shorter version of KP is a very very versatile defensive player who can guard the wing and is therefore not redundant in a lineup with KP and Willy. Its true that offensively he might not have the handle to ever play the 3 the way a team might like. But his vertical length, lateral quickness, and wingspan is such that he could be a very valuable lock down defender at either forward spot. Remember the 2011 Mavericks championship team? Their starting front court surrounded a stretch forward scoring machine in Dirk with two lower usage players, high rebounding, defensive stalwarts in Tyson Chandler and Shawn Marion. A Jonathan Isaac can be the Shawn Marion in our equation.

    26. Will the Thrill

      A Jonathan Isaac can be the Shawn Marion in our equation.

      I guess I just don’t think Isaac’s lateral quickness is as good enough to keep up with SF’s on defense. If I am correct, he simply won’t be able to guard SF’s because he is too tall/lanky/slow to keep up, and not strong enough to body them up or slow them down. Think KP trying to defend quick PF’s.

    27. Will the Thrill

      I think Isaac will be a valuable stretch 4 type player (maybe evolve into a KG-like defender), but even KG didn’t play SF.

    28. Philmelo

      If I am correct, he simply won’t be able to guard SF’s because he is too tall/lanky/slow to keep up, and not strong enough to body them up or slow them down.

      KG did play SF when he was young, but that’s irrelevant. I think we need to look at these players in less absolute terms and more in terms of what their versatility provides. There is potential for him to guard taller players in the wing while using his height and reach to great advantage there in certain matchups. If we want to go small and put KP at the 5, he’d be a great person to put in the 4 as well. The name of the game is versatility. He’s a major piece. You throw in an Anunoby and we have a dude who can be a pure wing defender.

    29. Brian Cronin

      I like Isaac a lot, but I suspect that if the Knicks are in position to be able to pick him, they’d be pretty high up in the draft, so I think I would probably still prefer they take the best available point guard. Isaac is precisely the type of player who rises in the draft the closer you get to the actual draft. Remember how teams talked themselves into Marvin freakin’ Williams over Chris Paul and Deron Williams? That’s what will happen with Isaac. I suspect he will go top five.

    30. Philmelo

      Does anyone know the position this team defensively excels at the most? Its shooting guard. Sasha and Holiday are the 6th and 8th respective best defenders at the position in terms of defensive real plus-minus. Baker is 22nd.

    31. nicos

      I think the most important positions defensively are center and point guard- there are a ton of good scoring small forwards but it’s a pnr league these days- if you can’t defend the high screen and roll you won’t be a very good defensive team. Plus I think it’s easier (and cheaper) to find good wing defenders than good defensive point guards who won’t derail your offense so I’d prefer Fox to Isaac. I haven’t seen enough of Smith or Frank to make that call. Isaac seems like a higher IQ Anthony Randolph (which could be very good indeed) so I wouldn’t be heartbroken if we picked him but, like Brian, I’d prefer a point guard.

    32. thenoblefacehumper

      I like Isaac a lot, but I suspect that if the Knicks are in position to be able to pick him, they’d be pretty high up in the draft, so I think I would probably still prefer they take the best available point guard.

      I’m not so sure. Ball and Fultz will still likely be gone, so at best you’re choosing between Isaac and Smith/Ntilikina/Fox. I personally am a bit bearish on Smith due to injury, defense, and turnover concerns. I’ll continue to regard Ntilikina as a total unknown until we have more information than grainy videos against dudes in the French league. Could be Mudiay, could be Giannis. Fox is the only one of the three I might take over Isaac, but even then I’m not sure. Isaac’s numbers are already great (and having watched a lot of him I think they’d be even better sans Dwayne Bacon) and he’s got plenty of room to improve. I like Fox a lot too so I’d be very happy to have either, but it’d be a tough choice. I guess my point is there isn’t a particular urgency to getting a point guard this draft besides the fact that there happen to be a lot of potentially good ones.

    33. Philmelo

      If Fox can’t drastically improve his jumper he’s going to be an offensive liability. Its the same problem Rose presents for us. Today’s game is about spacing, spacing, spacing. And right now that guy can’t shoot the 3 and may never be able to judging by the historical track record of similar players with such poor 3 point shooting averages.

    34. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      Let’s not forget Josh Jackson either. Is he better than all of the above?

    35. Brian Cronin

      I think Ntilikina will rise the closer we get to the draft, as well. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Isaac and Ntilikina as the #4 and #5 picks following Fultz, Ball and Jackson. That’s more me looking at NBA Draft history and less me judging whether they should be rising or not (although I really like them both).

    36. Brian Cronin

      Ntil-i-kina.

      That’s how I’m personally remembering how to spell his name. :) If the Knicks get him, though, I’m sure it will become a lot easier to remember.

    37. thenoblefacehumper

      If Fox can’t drastically improve his jumper he’s going to be an offensive liability. Its the same problem Rose presents for us. Today’s game is about spacing, spacing, spacing. And right now that guy can’t shoot the 3.

      It already improved a bit as the season went on and 73% from the line gives me hope. FWIW, he shot a ton of threes in high school at a 34% clip overall.

      Let’s not forget Josh Jackson either. Is he better than all of the above?

      I don’t totally understand the hype. His rebounding is good-not-great for his size and his 3PT shooting seems like a bit of a mirage given his 56% FT%, a la Winslow. He definitely seems like a potentially great defender though. I think I’d prefer Isaac.

    38. Philmelo

      I think Ntilikina will rise the closer we get to the draft, as well.

      He very well could. His performances are getting better and better in Strasbourg as gets more and more playing time. He had his first 3 assist game and had no turnovers. He’s averaging 14 points a game on insanely efficient rates.

    39. Brian Cronin

      I don’t totally understand the hype. His rebounding is good-not-great for his size and his 3PT shooting seems like a bit of a mirage given his 56% FT%, a la Winslow. He definitely seems like a potentially great defender though. I think I’d prefer Isaac

      I think I’d like Isaac, as well, but Jackson almost certainly will be a top 3 pick. Just like how I think Isaac will rise based on how teams draft, Jackson seems like a lock to be drafted in the top three based on how teams draft. I guess you could maaaybe talk me into Isaac going #3 and Jackson #4. But no lower than that.

    40. Philmelo

      Tatum will rise as well. Do not sleep on him if Duke cleans up in the championship tourney and he plays well.

    41. Brian Cronin

      Oh, true. Good call. Tatum is also clearly the type of player teams like to draft. I guess I was just sort of sleeping on Duke overall. :) But yes, if they perform well, he probably goes top five, as well. Which is great for teams drafting at #6, 7 and 8, as Fox, Ntilikina and Smith might be all available there. I don’t like Monk, but Monk at #9 is a super good value.

    42. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      If we end up with Tatum he should never ever get a NTC like we gave to his older brother :)

    43. Philmelo

      @49

      Bill Simmons just said that Tatum would be the perfect disaster pick for the Phil because his presence would make Melo insecure about being our starting #3. I don’t know if I am more offended by the thought Phil would pick a meh player like Tatum or that Melo will be on our team by then to be threatened by such a pick.

    44. djphan

      ntilikina has basically been a spot-up shooter for strasbourg… he might be hidden but i don’t really see great playmaking ability… if he’s a sg then his value is way down since he needs to score a lot more at that position… his 2pfg% and def ability are promising but he’s at best a consolation prize…

      fox and smith are the reasons why and they are really good… the best pg’s to come out since wall and rose… they are not perfect and wall and rose weren’t either…. but their strengths will allow them to be serviceable players while they work it out… they might not but their upside is a lot higher since they have less serious questions than a guy like a ntilikina who might not even be a pg…

      in other words… their upside is less important of a question than what they currently are…. and fox and smith are much much better players at this stage…

    45. kevin5318

      I’ve seen enough ISO Melo to know not to pick a worse version of him in Tatum. Actually the way he moves reminds me more of Danny Granger.

      I don’t get the Jackson hype either, he screams defensive specialist who can’t shoot. I think teams will end up regretting taking guys like Smith and Jackson before Isaac and Fox in this draft.

    46. Philmelo

      Fox’s inability to shoot a 3 > problem than Ntilikina’s handle/playmaking in today’s NBA game. Its a non-starter for me. If you want to excel in the modern NBA game you need a point guard who can shoot 3s. All of the best offenses have proven this time and time again in San Antonio, Golden State, Houston, Cleveland.

      You also don’t need elite scorers to be an offensively effective player at the 2 guard spot. Timmy Hardaway Jr. and Nick Young are both in the top 10 in offensive real-plus minus at the position.

    47. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      John Wall, pre injury Rose, Russell Westbrook, John Stockton, Marbury, all didnt and don’t shoot 3s well and ranged from very good to possibly GOAT PG in Stockton’s case

      What you need more than anything is someone who can break down the defense and pass it to the open guy–this is to say running he offense effectively and distributing are still the most important PG skills (at least in my eyes)

      3 point shooting is important but it doesn’t have to come from the PG position.

    48. Philmelo

      @55

      You’re not putting the numbers into perspective.

      1. Wall was a 32 percent three point shooter in college shooting 3.1 per game.
      2. Westbrook was a 35.4 percent three point shooter in college shooting 1.3 a game.
      3. Rose was 33.8 percent three point shooter in college shooting 2.6 a game.
      4. Marbury was a 37 percent three point shooter in college shooting a whopping 6.6 a game.
      5. Fox is a 24 percent three point shooter taking just 1.9 per game.

      As for Stockton, he played in an era of college basketball where they didn’t even tabulate 3 point percentages. It took him until he was 27 to become proficient in an era where the 3 ball wasn’t as important. To me this comparison is bogus anyway since Stockton was historically efficient as a shooter on a level Fox hasn’t come close to emulating.

    49. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      I like defense but I also like an offensive ankle breaker at PG. Am I asking too much? Which PG is closest to CP3?

    50. thenoblefacehumper

      Fox’s inability to shoot a 3 > problem than Ntilikina’s handle/playmaking in today’s NBA game. Its a non-starter for me.

      I think the complete opposite is true. 3PT shooting on its own isn’t terribly difficult to find. Even Jimmer is a 38% 3PT shooter in the NBA. Elite playmaking ability coupled with plus defense and rebounding isn’t exactly a waiver wire commodity.

      Just for a very quick, rudimentary example:

      There are currently two NBA players this season who match Fox’s assists/40, rebounds/40, and DBPM–Draymond Green and Westbrook.

      There are thirty nine players shooting 40% or above from 3.

    51. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      The point I’m making is that you can still be an extremely productive point guard running an efficient offense while simultaneously being a net negative shooter–this is especially true regarding 3 pointers

      There’s no reason to believe that Fox mucking up the offense with his bad long range shooting is going to be any more of a problem than Westbrook doing it or Wall doing it–especially because Fox knows his limitations and shoots very few threes as a result.

    52. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      And, for what’s it’s worth, his form is very good and his free throw percentage is good enough where it’s not unreasonable to project him to shoot at ~33% like other poor shooting LFs Westbrook, Wall, etc

    53. Jack Bauer

      Sure, pick Isaac and the Knicks can wander in the desert of No Decent Point Guard for the foreseeable future. They need a fucking point guard already, it’s getting old.

    54. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      Maybe we can get a PG who can play like Melo, only shorter and faster.

    55. Philmelo

      I think the complete opposite is true. 3PT shooting on its own isn’t terribly difficult to find.

      But that’s the point. If you’re a player who can’t even produce within the modicum of 3 point proficiency seen in the NBA then you’re playing someone who puts your offense at a disadvantage.

      Just for a very quick, rudimentary example…There are currently two NBA players this season who match Fox’s assists/40, rebounds/40, and DBPM–Draymond Green and Westbrook.

      Comparing these college stats to pro stats is very disengenuous. I ran the same numbers in terms of assist percentage/rebound percentage/ and DBPM for all college players since 2010-11. Here is the list of 91 players. Outside of Draymond Green, it doesn’t have one all star. In terms of guards with comparable minutes played you’re looking Kris Dunn and Marcus Smart as your best comps outside of Lonzo Ball which is interesting since both are very good examples of point guards with poor outside range.

      There’s no reason to believe that Fox mucking up the offense with his bad long range shooting is going to be any more of a problem than Westbrook doing it or Wall doing it–especially because Fox knows his limitations and shoots very few threes as a result.

      You’re really pushing it when you take outliers like Westbrook and Wall as examples of point guards who can overcome poor 3 point percentages. You’re talking about the strongest/most physical point…

    56. Philmelo

      And, for what’s it’s worth, his form is very good and his free throw percentage is good enough where it’s not unreasonable to project him to shoot at ~33% like other poor shooting LFs Westbrook, Wall, etc

      So did Marcus Smart. He had a better FT%/3P% (.751/.295) than Fox (.734/.242) does with far more attempts but he’s still a sub-30 percent three point shooter.

    57. thenoblefacehumper

      But that’s the point. If you’re a player who can’t even produce within the modicum of 3 point proficiency seen in the NBA then you’re playing someone who puts your offense at a disadvantage.

      But it’s easy to find guys who can shoot threes well. It’s not easy to find guys who can make plays, rebound, and defend well. Besides, there’s really no reason to think Fox is doomed to be a bad 3PT shooter forever. He’s taken 62 total attempts this season. In reality we shouldn’t be drawing any conclusions from that. I mean hey, he’s 7 for his last 12!

      Comparing these college stats to pro stats is very disengenuous. I ran the same numbers in terms of assist percentage/rebound percentage/ and DBPM for all college players since 2010-11. Here is the list of 91 players. Outside of Draymond Green, it doesn’t have one all star. In terms of guards with comparable minutes played you’re looking Kris Dunn and Marcus Smart as your best comps outside of Lonzo Ball which is interesting since both are very good examples of point guards with poor outside range.

      Dude, you included the entire NCAA and didn’t plug in ANY kind of minute limitation. Well over half that list played double or single digit minutes! Plug in a mere 400 total minutes played limitation and all of the sudden it’s a 31 player list that still includes plenty of guys from tiny conferences. If anything, it demonstrates how unique Fox’s skill set is.

      Ball is shooting 41% from 3 on plenty of attempts by the way.

    58. Philmelo

      But it’s easy to find guys who can shoot threes well.

      But if its so easy to find these guys it means that every backcourt is full of them. Being proficient in this skill is a requisite. Fox can’t even match this requisite, that puts him at a major disadvantage which is my point.

      Besides, there’s really no reason to think Fox is doomed to be a bad 3PT shooter forever. He’s taken 62 total attempts this season. In reality we shouldn’t be drawing any conclusions from that. I mean hey, he’s 7 for his last 12!

      Can you find me one college player with so few attempts at such a low percentage who became a proficient 3 point shooter? Why should I believe he’s going to improve? Has Marcus Smart, Micheal Carter-Williams, Gary Payton Jr, etc.?’

      Plug in a mere 400 total minutes played limitation and all of the sudden it’s a 31 player list that still includes plenty of guys from tiny conferences.

      And I gave you the best of that list – Marcus Smart, Kris Dunn, Gary Payton Jr, Lonzo Ball, Micheal Carter Williams, T.J. McConnell. My point is unchanged.

      Ball is shooting 41% from 3 on plenty of attempts by the way.

      I know, which is why I don’t even consider him in this equation. He’s the outlier whose long range talent isn’t in question. I want Lonzo Ball, De’Aaron Fox not so much.

    59. djphan

      rondo was a pg for multiple championship teams… and he was pretty decent for a time…. rubio has also been pretty good…. and parker continues to be a good pg and has never ever shot that many 3s…. you can be a solid pg and not have a 3pt shot and be a pg for a team that wins….

      and you also have pg’s who didn’t really shoot well but developed it in the pros… lowry and conley both took a miniscule amount of 3s and shot ~30%… and they wound up being fine…

      don’t get too caught up in that outside shot… yes it is important but for prospects the other things are the building blocks in building a great player.. scoring inside efficiently and with volume… getting to balls off the glass or stealing it from a player… handling the ball and leading possessions to buckets.. those are elements of any good to great player….

      even a guy like curry still gets more points on the other side of the 3pt line…

    60. Philmelo

      @70

      1. Rondo’s a great comp. But believe it or not even Rondo shot a higher 3 point percentage (.273 to .242) at the same attempts per game (1.9) than Fox. That’s the level of bad shooting we’re looking at. Also, Rondo is a guy this team could have had and didn’t want because his game doesn’t translate well to where the game is going. You can see it the way his WS/48 has diminished since 2013 his production of similar metrics across the board.

      2. Lowry shot less than Fox in college but still at a higher percentage. Conley also shot a higher percentage at the same rate. But you can add them Oladipo to the dozens who haven’t.

      3. But Curry’s ability to draw opposing defenders to the perimeter is what gives him the freedom to operate.

    61. nicos

      I like Isaac a lot, but I suspect that if the Knicks are in position to be able to pick him, they’d be pretty high up in the draft, so I think I would probably still prefer they take the best available point guard. Isaac is precisely the type of player who rises in the draft the closer you get to the actual draft. Remember how teams talked themselves into Marvin freakin’ Williams over Chris Paul and Deron Williams? That’s what will happen with Isaac. I suspect he will go top five.

      One thing that worries me about Isaac is that he seems a little Marvin Williams-esque, a guy too content to be the third wheel to fully take advantage of his skill set. Williams’ numbers college numbers were very similar to Isaac’s (better shooting, fewer blocks, everything else pretty equal) but he’s never made much of an impact in the pros. To me Isaac seems like just as big a question mark as Fox- Fox is much closer to Wall, pre-injury Rose, etc… in terms of his quickness/handle than he is to Smart or Dunn. Hell, Rose still gets into the lane at will without any semblance of a three point shot. If Fox had a three point shot right now he might go number 1- his ceiling is as high as anyone’s in the draft. I agree he’s somewhat of a risk but so is just about everybody except maybe Fultz and Ball.

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