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Sunday, May 26, 2019

Knicks Morning News (2017.02.22)

  • [NYPost] Why the Knicks’ playoff hopes are better than you think
    (Tuesday, February 21, 2017 9:13:37 PM)

    The optimist will look at the list of remaining NBA games and say, “Oh, wow, the Knicks are entering the easy part of their schedule.” The cynic will look at the same list, see an opponent about to face the Knicks and think that same rival is entering the easy part of its schedule. While…

  • [NYPost] Joakim Noah takes step back in recovery from hamstring injury
    (Tuesday, February 21, 2017 6:43:00 PM)

    So the Knicks came roaring back from the All-Star break all set for a practice that would propel them toward greatness and glory in the second half. Only the starting center, Joakim Noah, didn’t practice, still bothered by a bum hamstring. The starting shooting guard, Courtney Lee, was sick as a dog and not back…

  • [NYPost] Carmelo and Derrick Rose on center stage in Knicks’ trade drama
    (Tuesday, February 21, 2017 5:43:33 PM)

    There is one saving grace in all the drama leading up to the NBA trading deadline for the Knicks. It ends Thursday. And if coach Jeff Hornacek proves to be a prophet, the Knicks roster will stay the same. Hornacek doubled down Tuesday on his pre-All-Star break contention the Knicks would not make a deal….

  • [NYPost] The road to glory for Knicks guard and siblings began in a driveway
    (Tuesday, February 21, 2017 3:38:28 PM)

    LOS ANGELES — Driveways, backyards and school grounds all across the nation are littered with little kids carrying big basketball dreams — dreams that usually begin and end with making it to the NBA. For most kids who play into the darkness of night with their siblings and friends from the neighborhood until elbows are…

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks’ Derrick Rose remains stoic in face of trade rumors
    (Tuesday, February 21, 2017 10:04:00 PM)

    GREENBURGH, N.Y. — Derrick Rose used the edge of his jersey to wipe the sweat from his forehead after practice Tuesday. He was equally as practical and matter of fact when it came to dealing with questions about reports that the Knicks are talking about trading him to the Timberwolves.

  • [NYTimes] Lakers, in Shake-Up, Hand Reins to Magic Johnson
    (Wednesday, February 22, 2017 1:34:40 AM)

    Jeanie Buss, the team president, ousted her brother from his job as the head of basketball operations and fired the longtime general manager, Mitch Kupchak.

  • [NYTimes] Pacers’ Glenn Robinson III Wins N.B.A.’s Slam-Dunk Contest
    (Wednesday, February 22, 2017 12:00:27 AM)

    Houston’s Eric Gordon won the 3-point contest, and the Knicks’ Kristaps Porzingis triumphed in the skills challenge.

  • [SNY Knicks] GEICO SportsNite: Rumors surround Knicks at trade deadline
    (Tuesday, February 21, 2017 11:49:00 PM)

    Jeff Hornacek and Derrick Rose address the trade rumors surrounding the team as the deadline looms.

  • [SNY Knicks] Noah to miss game against Cavaliers with hamstring injury
    (Tuesday, February 21, 2017 8:27:55 PM)

    Joakim Noah tweaked his hamstring in practice prior to the All-Star break and that injury will cause him to miss Thursday’s game against the Cavaliers.

  • [SNY Knicks] 3 Keys: All-Star culture, the trade deadline, and who plays at center
    (Tuesday, February 21, 2017 10:10:01 AM)

    In this week’s edition of “3 Keys,” SNY.tv’s Keith Schlosser takes a look at All-Star culture, the trade deadline, and who should receive playing time at center.

  • [ESPN] Wednesday’s Knicks News: Hamstring still bothering Noah
    (Wednesday, February 22, 2017 5:08:08 AM)

    Wednesday’s Knicks News: Hamstring still bothering Noah

  • [ESPN] Clippers, Celtics keeping hope of Carmelo Anthony trade alive?
    (Wednesday, February 22, 2017 2:00:04 AM)

    Clippers, Celtics keeping hope of Carmelo Anthony trade alive?

  • [NYDN] Joakim Noah’s injury woes continue with hamstring pull
    (Tuesday, February 21, 2017 4:28:45 PM)

    Jeff Hornacek said Willy Hernangomez will start in Noah’s place against the Cavs.

  • [NYDN] Derrick Rose says he’ll be ‘prepared’ if Knicks trade him
    (Tuesday, February 21, 2017 4:10:07 PM)

    Was Tuesday Derrick Rose’s last practice in the blue and orange?

  • [NYDN] Phil dumped again as Jeanie Buss ends all hope of a Lakers return
    (Tuesday, February 21, 2017 4:01:33 PM)

    First, Phil Jackson lost the girl and then the job.

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    233 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.02.22)

    1. Bruno Almeida

      Justin Verrier? @JustinVerrier
      In case it needs to be said: Sources say a Jrue Holiday trade before Thursday’s deadline is highly doubtful. Pelicans have their big three.

      and they are reportedly giving Holiday a max contract in the offseason… big three has become a very loose concept it seems.

      I have a feeling this deadline will be incredibly disappointing for the Knicks, but I still believe in the tank.

    2. Totes McGoats

      I like the Pels’ top 3 and think they will be dangerous, but boy are the Rockets looking crazy explosive right now- as if they weren’t already

    3. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      I’m checking in from the beautiful island of Bonaire, Dutch Antilles.. Captain Theo hasn’t run us aground yet. However he kept telling all of the passengers that we were much too fat. No bueno. Have we given away the team yet?

    4. stratomatic

      Every year I adopt a team to root for in the playoffs once the Knicks are done. I’m going to be rooting for the Rockets and D’Antoni this year. On some level MDA has already been vindicated by the way the league has changed and by the success of the Warriors. But I’d love to see him win for himself and get coach of the year. He was relentlessly trashed by “know nothings” in the media for his stints in NY and LA – which were not entirely his fault. So I’m loving the success he’s having in Houston.

    5. bobneptune

      For the life of me I do not understand why Phil doesn’t force Melo’s hand by selling off any asset of value (KOQ, LEE, and whatever can be gotten for Jennings , Rose and whomever can be moves and tell him, “do you want to languish on a 20 win team for the next 2 years or do you want to got to team XYZ tomorrow, cuz we ain’t moving you for dreck in the summer.

      And, OH… by the way, enjoy you 18 minutes a game role as sixth man and the second you upset the offense we treat you like Marbury.

      Embrace the tank, Phil!!!

    6. Ambrosenyk

      @6 Agreed. What’s concerning about this whole ordeal is that, even with all the drama, the Knicks are reluctant to commit to a direction this team should be going in. Forget about trying to trade Melo, Noah, or Rose. Why are there no rumors re: Lee and O’Quinn, and to a lesser extent BJ? What purpose do they serve for the Knicks? IMO, I fear that Phil is still deluded into thinking the Knicks are a win-now team and will do another “soft-rebuild” this summer.

    7. stratomatic

      @6 The problem with that strategy is the same as the problem with Jackson’s tweets. Players notice how you treat the players in your organization. If you treat them poorly or without respect that attitude will work against you in the future when it comes to marginal decisions about where to play.

    8. bobneptune

      @6 The problem with that strategy is the same as the problem with Jackson’s tweets. Players notice how you treat the players in your organization. If you treat them poorly or without respect that attitude will work against you in the future when it comes to marginal decisions about where to play.

      I don’t buy this argument in the slightest. No one moves anywhere other for the reasons of the most money, a chance to play with great players and win or to play in their home town for similar money.

      If the knicks had Wade on the roster, leBron and Bosh almost certainly would have come here despite any other distraction.

      The only players that come here are players that can’t get as much anywhere else, other than Melo who wanted to come here for his brand and other non BB related ideas.

      These guys are mini conglomerates and they are following the money unless the money is close and there is a chance to grab for the ring.

    9. MSA

      If we are talking about the second or lower tiers of players, then sure, it’s all about the money.

      But Top players can choose where they wanna play. And Phil is not making any easier in this front.

      And treating players badly is not exactly what a functional franchise that we are aiming to be should be doing.

      As much as I hate Melo’s contract, he didn’t do exactly anything wrong.

      But you can be a little bit smooth. Reduce his playing time to 28-29 minutes, keep him out of some crunch time, “rest him” in back to back games and trade any veteran on the team.

      This along with a team with no perspective on improving short term will be probably enough for him to wave his NTC.

    10. Theo

      I proposed benching Melo months ago as the only realistic chance of getting him to become more amenable to different trading scenarios.

      The usual reply that “free agents won’t come here if you do that” is eadily refuted by pointing out that Melo himself, Stoudemire, Chandler and many others came here via trade, free agency, etc. after the Marbury incident.

      So, yes, benching Melo is the correct strategy – but one that only knowledgeable, smart fans can comprehend.

    11. Bruno Almeida

      yeah, I don’t care much if future free agents will look down on the Knicks, what was our last good free agent signing anyway?

      the Knicks are not attracting top free agents because we fucking suck, that’s it… the way to rebuild for this team is drafting and smart trading, and then the role players will come from free agency.

      I think getting Melo out of this team is a higher priority than the “image” of the Knicks, which is already in the gutter anyway because of decades of ineptitude.

      if Melo stays beyond the next summer Phil deserves to be fired instantly.

    12. Theo

      Getting rid of Melo should not be the priority, though. Firing Phil Jackson before he further cripples the team with his next win-now move is the top priority.

      There is no evidence whatsoever that Phil Jackson has a plan. All rumors and theories are just that and whisful thinking by fans

    13. Bruno Almeida

      I just said that getting rid of Melo should be a higher priority than saving the franchise’s image to prospective hypothetical free agents.

      the real top priority is fortifying the tank at all costs.

    14. bobneptune

      Lee was felled by a bug and was too sick to travel. “He was so sick today he couldn’t get on his flight so hopefully he gets on a flight early enough [Wednesday] to make a practice beforehand,” Hornacek said. “That’s what we’re hoping. But that’s going to be tough too after sitting out for five days.” 11 hours ago – via New York Post

      Hmmmmmmmm……….

    15. DRed

      For the life of me I do not understand why Phil doesn’t force Melo’s hand by selling off any asset of value (KOQ, LEE, and whatever can be gotten for Jennings , Rose and whomever can be moves and tell him, “do you want to languish on a 20 win team for the next 2 years or do you want to got to team XYZ tomorrow, cuz we ain’t moving you for dreck in the summer.

      If Melo is staying here because he likes NY and his family is most comfortable here I imagine he’s willing to sacrifice some wins. We should be moving Kyle etc because it’s best for the Knicks. If Melo doesn’t want to be traded there’s nothing we can do.

    16. Jack Bauer

      I’m afraid the trade deadline for Knick fans will be a lot of talk and rumours that amount to no action…Yawn. Too bad, Rose for Rubio, including extra pieces if necessary , would be nice.
      Houston looks to be ridiculously deep at least on offense. I agree with the sentiments above, he scoreboards are going to get a good workout during the western conference playoffs.

    17. JK47

      Phil will probably make one or two minor moves in which he gets rid of a couple of guys and gets a very meager return. Then next offseason he’ll probably use Rose’s cap space to sign some more mediocre second-tier “win now” type veterans. And this time next year we’ll be having these same stupid discussions all over again.

      But at least we’ll have Miles Bridges to build around.

    18. ptmilo

      daily social media red herring update: Rubio just followed KP on twitter. Presumably we’ve traded Zinger for Shabazz.

    19. KJG

      bobneptune… im reading through the accounts… # 1) he sounds entitled … # 2) sounds like he was looking for trouble… #3) his paranoia is either him looking for trouble, or, he actually does need help… it’s probably a combo of both

      its interesting though… the higher up the chain the accounts are, the more “company” they seem, however I don’t doubt they are mostly truthful accounts… there is just too much corroboration in their stories…

      end of day… im embarrassed as an Oakley jersey owner…

    20. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      I can feel things heating up with Knick trades. Hot like the Caribbean waters. It’s going to happen. Bye Melo. Bye Rose. Bye Jennings. Pass me some rum.

    21. d-mar

      Philmelo, who is this kc1nyk you keep posting tweets from? Sounds like another Tommy Dee, let me just keep throwing shit out there and if one turd sticks to the wall I’ll look like a genius.

    22. Hugo Busto

      It’s awful. Some account with 90k! Tweets and only 1k followers. And yet we are dyin getting fed updates from it

    23. DS

      Sorry to be a wet blanket, but when you read about things like Melo’s kid being settled in a school and his wife liking NY, you realize that if he wants to stay here, he’s just going to ignore Phil wanting to move on and the fans wanting to move on… he’s going to make the Hall, he’s had winning seasons, been to the WCF. Lifting your odds of winning a ring by 20-30% and not being occasionally booed just are not very effective motivators.

    24. er

      Philmelo, who is this kc1nyk you keep posting tweets from? Sounds like another Tommy Dee, let me just keep throwing shit out there and if one turd sticks to the wall I’ll look like a genius.

      Lol….

    25. wetbandit

      Given what we know about how Dolan runs MSG and how we saw they handled the situation, I don’t think I care what his employees say.

      Seems like a lot of “I didn’t know him” and “we were all standing there in front of him and all of a sudden he was getting aggressive/making racial statements.” They protest too much. Oh, and not one person said anything about knowing Oakley and huddling/watching him closely per orders? Right.

    26. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      Rubio is now following KP on Twitter? Why hasn’t this important fact been mentioned?

    27. Philmelo

      Philmelo, who is this kc1nyk you keep posting tweets from? Sounds like another Tommy Dee, let me just keep throwing shit out there and if one turd sticks to the wall I’ll look like a genius.

      It’s awful. Some account with 90k! Tweets and only 1k followers. And yet we are dyin getting fed updates from it

      Jesus, what is all of the bitching about? If you don’t like the tweet ignore them. I personally find the site to be on top of all of the rumors coming out as they come out.

    28. Philmelo

      #Knicks and #twolves have continued talks surrounding guard D. Rose. TWolves were the aggressors. I'm told NY are motivated to get it done.— Sports News (@JSports_ent) February 22, 2017

      In case someone cries about it, this tweet isn’t from the site kc1nk twitter account.

    29. ptmilo

      Why hasn’t this important fact been mentioned?

      posting on knickerblogger is like when I tried to teach my dog Spanish, if my dog was in shuffleboard league full of excessively fat people

    30. wetbandit

      Facts:

      Rose, Lee, Noah sitting out practice today, I believe Melo came back after sitting out yesterday.

      KP and Willy follow Rubio on Twitter. Rubio tweets: “Never stress over what you can’t control,” Willy and KP like the tweet.

      Jennings back on social media, Knicks stuff off.

      Discuss.

    31. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      Social media tells us absolutely everything these days. We no longer need to rely on fake news. Ain’t it grand?

    32. geo

      posting on knickerblogger is like when I tried to teach my dog Spanish, if my dog was in shuffleboard league full of excessively fat people

      perfect posting – good to have you back ptmilo :-)

    33. Theo

      Focused analysis is the domain of the coherent.

      Butterfly-caliber brains are happy to spend their days jumping from rumor to rumor, cheerfully repeating silly, patently absurd fantasies.

      Where are all those guaranteed trades? Where’s Lebron forcing a Love-for-Melo swap? Where’s Doc Rivers begging the Knicks for Melo? Where are the Celtics willing to give Phil Jackson that Brooklyn pick for Melo? Where is the single person outside NY thinking Melo is a solution and not the problem the Knicks are desperate to get rid of?

    34. Theo

      I said it before and will repeat it: the Knicks would be the ones having to “sweeten the pot” in any Melo trade – if one materialized.

    35. geo

      whoa reub – you racking up some serious frequent floating miles…sounds like cpt theo needs to get tossed overboard…enjoy sir…

    36. Theo

      @ Theo – if everyone here is so stupid, why do you waste your time here?

      Not everyone here is stupid. Never said that.

      What I said is very clear: a few stupid posters spend their days posting and referencing stupid shit that always proves false. You’re one of them.

      So, no, there are many smart, insightful people here. There are stupid ones, too.

    37. geo

      theo – what else do we have to discuss?

      pretty much all of us have little to no confidence in phil, we all think rose and melo need to be gone, we are all pretty okay with some of our young guys, we’re all hoping to get something for our “vets”, we’ve discussed just about every human being eligible for the upcoming draft, we’ve beaten the oakley thing far in to the dirt…

      it’s seems now we’re in that circle jerk portion of the process where all we have is to discuss potential trades (sensible or not) until something happens…

      waiting for something to happen…waiting…waiting some more…

    38. Z-man

      So theoretically, if Rose for Rubio happens, how do people feel in retrospect about the initial Rose trade? In other words, if the trade was Lopez, Calderon and Grant for Rubio, Holiday and a #2, would that have been a more palatable deal than the initial trade?

    39. Philmelo

      Theo is here because no other place will stand him. But that isn’t his biggest problem. His biggest problem is that he thinks he’s way smarter than he really patting himself on the back for the fact that the Knicks, like 26 other teams, haven’t made a trade deal yet.

    40. Philmelo

      Word is that the Knicks were interested in trading for Patrick Beverley but the Rockets told them to fuck off.

    41. JK47

      Word is that the Knicks were interested in trading for Patrick Beverley but the Rockets told them to fuck off.

      PHIL: Uh, hey Darryl, it’s Phil Jackson. I’m just calling to see if you have any interest in trading Patrick Bev–
      MOREY: Fuck off, hippie.
      (click)

    42. KJG

      nice philmelo… give us everything you got… i like that one twitter account everyone is ragging on… no, i love it actually

    43. KJG

      Michael Scotto: Sources: Knicks turned down a Rockets offer of Patrick Beverley. Asking price of a first-round pick and two rotation players was too high.

      whos michael scotto… this offer is a farce

    44. Jack Bauer

      @ 35 -“Truly, I hate this time of year.
      More falsities, few facts.”

      What he said – particularly when it comes to the Knicks

    45. Jack Bauer

      Asking for a 1st round pick + 2 rotation players for Patrick Beverly = saying Fuck Off

      Do not trade with the Rockets – we lose big every time

    46. Z-man

      Come to think of it, the deal would have essentially been Rubio for Lopez. Grant and Calderon for Holiday+2nd rounder are pretty much a wash.

      In that sense, if the deal goes down, we wind up getting fair (but not great) return for Lopez, a similarly good but deeply flawed starter on a fair market value contract.

    47. KJG

      Al Iannazzone: Jennings said he shut down his twitter for bit because he “needed a break from it… As Knicks player you get all types of weird tweets.”

      How weird ya think?

    48. the don nelson era

      @52 I think the Noah signing still has to factored into the sequence of moves. Rubio for Rose makes it less bad but it’s still pretty bad.

    49. Philmelo

      I still don’t want the Rubio trade to happen. Its going to fuck up our tank and we’ve got freefalling Magic, Lakers and Kings teams to deal with.

      But with that said, any Rose for Rubio trade would make Phil’s Lopez/Calderon/Grant trade with Chicago look way better.

    50. Frank O.

      So theoretically, if Rose for Rubio happens, how do people feel in retrospect about the initial Rose trade? In other words, if the trade was Lopez, Calderon and Grant for Rubio, Holiday and a #2, would that have been a more palatable deal than the initial trade?

      yes

    51. djphan

      i wouldn’t worry too much about draft positioning… we are pretty locked into the 9th or 10th pick and we just got a big boost with the pelicans probably adding a few wins….

      if the pacers deal paul george then i might start to worry….

    52. Z-man

      I believe that the Noah trade has to be considered separately, even if Phil linked them in his mind. There was no obligation to sign Noah. If you want to be critical of the entire win now-ish mindset, that’s fair. But Phil did not have to replace Lopez with Noah, there were other options.

    53. Z-man

      I guess it could be argued that Lopez would yield more in a current deadline deal than just Rose, but I don’t see much of a market for a piece like Lopez right now, am I missing something?

    54. the don nelson era

      I think the Melo and Paul George talk is just a smokescreen by the Celtics. Melo doesn’t help their D, George doesn’t help their O.

      If you’re them and you’re acquiring a wing, it’s gotta be Butler or bust, right?

    55. SJK

      I disagree. Phil created a void by dealing Lopez and he signed Noah to fill that void. By that fact alone, the two transactions are inextricably linked. It’s not relevant that there were other options because Phil ignored those other options and chose Noah.

    56. thenoblefacehumper

      Come to think of it, the deal would have essentially been Rubio for Lopez. Grant and Calderon for Holiday+2nd rounder are pretty much a wash.

      In that sense, if the deal goes down, we wind up getting fair (but not great) return for Lopez, a similarly good but deeply flawed starter on a fair market value contract.

      1. Rubio for Rose is still highly unlikely to happen. Hope I’m wrong, but that’s just the way it is.
      2. Grant and Calderon for one year of Holiday and a second rounder would’ve been a bad trade. Grant is looking like a rotation player.

    57. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      It’s almost time for Phil Action Jackson to work his magic again. Are you as excited as I am? Even the pink flamingos are dancing right now!

    58. Jack Bauer

      “we are pretty locked into the 9th or 10th pick ” – ho hum. Unless they get really lucky, this player will probably not move the needle much. factor in the Knicks drafting history and my expectations are pretty low

    59. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      Captain Theo is younger and dumber than he looks. I’m really worried about my safety.

    60. Accidentank 2017

      The Knicks have been god awful since Christmas. We have what, like 9 wins in the past 7 weeks? A Rubio trade won’t move the needle so much as to sink our tank. I think it’s still likely we pick top 7, and hopefully we land in the top 5.

      Playing KP over O’Quinn is also a great way to tank.

    61. geo

      Even the pink flamingos are dancing right now!

      hmmmmm, are those pick flamingos contained within some adult beverages…let em dance, let em dance…

      i’m intrigued by the lakers choice of bringing in a current player agent to act as gm of their team…

      on the surface that seems like a really smart move, and pelinka is well thought of – at least what’s out there right now…

      any one know if that is a totally unique path to gm (being a “former” player agent)…or, is this something that’s happened in the past with other clubs…

    62. Frank O.

      The Knicks are looking for a first-round pick in exchange for Kyle O’Quinn. (Frank Isola, New York Daily News)

    63. thenoblefacehumper

      Nets got the Wizards’ 2017 first for Bogdanovich. I really hope we didn’t turn that down for Lee, whose market is drying up quickly.

    64. Hugo Busto

      Good deal for both sides. Fetched more than Lou Will got. Also creates space for Wiz to resign Otto

    65. Brian Cronin

      What a great deal by the Nets.

      All of these first rounders on the move! Come on, Phil, grab one of them!

    66. Philmelo

      That Twitter account I get shit for posting had said that the market for Bogdanovich was good. They have it as PF Andrew Nicholson, SG Marcus Thornton, 2017 protected 1st to #Nets for PF Chris McCullough and SF Bojan Bogdanovic

      Man, we really need to get something for Lee. Bogdanovic sucks so hard.

    67. ptmilo

      hate that deal for washington. i get that they ditch the nicholson contract but bojan is the kind of player that looks pretty good with a 57% TS on decent usage as a shooter/scorer but is kinda worthless. totally, completely sucks on D and not a passer or rebounder. don’t think it makes them better and they have a terrible bench desperately in need of an upgrade. seems like they wasted a valuable commodity here.

    68. Accidentank 2017

      As a Brooklyn native I have no problem with the Nets making good trades. I sorta hate Billy King forever for what he did to that franchise (and how Boston is set up for a decade because of it).

      Phil Jackson is definitely gonna screw this one up, guys. He has been terrible up until today and he’s not gonna have a stroke of genius anytime soon.

    69. Philmelo

      Lee’s contract will look like a pittance after the types of deal we’ll be seeing dished out to mediocrity this offseason. We’re looking at a market where Jrue Holliday (a career .080 WS/48 player) is going to be considered a near max or max contract core player.

    70. Philmelo

      Its not even Phil who should be handling these trade deals. That’s what Mills is for. Phil should just be the guy who signs off on it. If he’s more active in this market than that I will be majorly pissed.

    71. Bruno Almeida

      Bogdanovic does not suck, he’s a decent shooter and better than whatever the Wiz have in their terrible bench.

      great trade by the Nets, anyway.

    72. Cock Jowles, #1 Pythag. Wins Denialist

      So theoretically, if Rose for Rubio happens, how do people feel in retrospect about the initial Rose trade? In other words, if the trade was Lopez, Calderon and Grant for Rubio, Holiday and a #2, would that have been a more palatable deal than the initial trade?

      I was reading backward in the thread and saw this comment quoted by another poster. I guessed that OP was either Frank or Z-man, and sure enough, I was right.

      The trade was not Lopez, Calderon and Grant for Rubio, Holiday and a #2. The trade’s centerpiece was a one-year. $21.6M deal for Derrick Rose while retaining his bird rights, which was a negative aspect of the trade. That trade was an F+.

      To use a blackjack analogy: these are two different hands. Maybe you stand on a hard 12 and got lucky when the dealer busts. Then you take those winnings and make a smart play with them. Does that erase the shittiness of your earlier play? The answer is a flat no, even if your 2nd play was much smarter.

      This is par-for-the-course thinking for you, so I’m not terribly surprised, but last year you talked about how the evaluation of a roster move or draft pick can only happen once the results are confirmed. This is simply poor decision-making. You need to evaluate the decision at the moment it was made, with all of the available information under consideration. The conclusion here is that there was a terrible trade followed by a good trade (pending). That’s it.

    73. ClashFan

      I keep reading that Indiana is willing to deal its #1 pick to improve the team (if they don’t deal George to Boston). Would the Pacers have any interest in Lee and/or OQ?

    74. Philmelo

      The sad thing is that the Pacers are more likely to see Okafor as a more valuable commodity than O’Quinn when the opposite is true.

    75. ClashFan

      If the Pacers keep George, OQ makes way more sense than Okafor. However, if they trade George and are thus rebuilding, I could see them preferring Okafor.

    76. Brian Cronin

      Oh man, that Pacers’ pick would be a really nice pick to have. Come on, Larry, you have to like O’Quinn!

    77. Brian Cronin

      Oh, and Thibs, I bet if you asked John Starks, he would tell you to trade for Derrick Rose. Don’t listen to anyone who hasn’t at least rode ruff a little bit in their career. What do they know? You know best. You know you need D-Rose! He’s a gamer!

    78. Z-man

      @104 I disagree (what a shock!) I would argue that you can actually judge a move both at the time with the available info and in retrospect. If you are saying that the trade was “bad” because the odds of it being good were too low given what was known at the time, I would agree. However, I think it’s fair to say that if Phil (or whoever) sees multiple ways that the deal can pan out (including the likelyhood that Rose would have reasonable value at the trade deadline) then he deserves credit (or reduced blame, if you will) if one of those scenarios plays out. And clearly the possibility of trading Rose’s expiring at the deadline was a consideration at the time of the trade. Many (including you, if I recall correctly) felt that there was little chance that Rose would retain any value at the deadline (i.e. he would be either injured or as bad as he was the last two years). Getting a player the caliber of Rubio (who I don’t particularly like, but whatever) is not some unforeseen event like, say, Sam Bowie’s feet breaking down or Allan Houston’s knees giving out. So if the trade goes down, I’d say that a) it was an overly risky move, but not prohibitively so given the thin PG and robust C markets at the time, and b) a relatively reasonable and predictable scenario played out, and can be used to pass final judgment on the deal. But as you have admitted, you are extremely risk-averse, right?

    79. MSA

      I have a funny feeling the holdup is Nemanja Bjelica. The Knicks want both Rubio and Bjelica.

      I hope you are wrong.

      Bjelica is like Jason Smith without a midrange shot.

    80. Cock Jowles, #1 Pythag. Wins Denialist

      Many (including you, if I recall correctly) felt that there was little chance that Rose would retain any value at the deadline (i.e. he would be either injured or as bad as he was the last two years).

      If Jackson knew beyond a reasonable doubt that Thibodeau would want to trade an outstanding mid-prime PG on a multi-year, cap-friendly deal for a washed-up former “star” with literally 2 months left on his already-too-big contract and who’s demanding to be paid like he’s a tier-one franchise player into his mid-thirties???????????? Then yeah: fuck me, all praise Jax.

    81. Brian Cronin

      I hope you are wrong.

      Bjelica is like Jason Smith without a midrange shot.

      I wouldn’t mind that if that were the case if it was just a matter of the Rubio/Rose deal being the base that will happen and the Knicks are just trying to get them to throw more into the deal. Like if Jackson is currently holding out for, like, a future first or whatever. And if that little extra is Bjelica, then whatever, it’s just gravy if the trade equals the other team giving a player with any skills for Derrick Rose.

    82. Hugo Busto

      Do we really want to swap rose for Rubio?

      I know it will help KP development but other than that???

    83. geo

      I have a funny feeling the holdup is Nemanja Bjelica.

      if you don’t know, now you know – “professor big shots” is mighty clutch…

    84. stratomatic

      If Derrick Rose lands us Ricky Rubio, I think we have evaluate the Rose trade in a new light.

      I’m generally not in favor of things like that. However, we have to concede that even though many of us hated the Rose deal (and we were mostly right) that does not mean the rest of the league values him the same way we do.

      If Phil understood that Rose’s value around the league was still fairly high, then one could argue he overpaid, but was playing a game of greater fool. He bought damaged goods with the intention of either keeping it (if Rose turned out to not be damaged) or trading it because he knew he could still get good value back.

    85. Brian Cronin

      Appropos of nothing, I just saw that the Kings are going to let McElmore play some power forward. That’s hilarious.

    86. the don nelson era

      I can see why Phil would target Nemanja Bjelica. He’s like Mindaugus Kuzminskas, but worse.

    87. Z-man

      “an outstanding mid-prime PG on a multi-year, cap-friendly deal…”

      Some would say a somewhat overpaid below-average starting PG who can’t (and doesn’t) shoot…

    88. thenoblefacehumper

      The Pacers are 18th in DRtg and 26th in total rebounding. O’Quinn would be great for them, but he’s probably not flashy enough to appeal to Paul George which is all they’re really trying to do.

    89. Cock Jowles, #1 Pythag. Wins Denialist

      There’s no way he’s overpaid. It’s not a steal like Danny Green in 2014-15, say, but that is a ridiculously good contract for a guy who does everything else well. And to be clear, I am happy that a .530 TS% player is not jacking up 20 shots a game. That’s why Carmelo sucks.

    90. Brian Cronin

      I’m generally not in favor of things like that. However, we have to concede that even though many of us hated the Rose deal (and we were mostly right) that does not mean the rest of the league values him the same way we do.

      Honestly, while I hated the trade as a trade, as I said at the time, the worst aspect of the bad trade was that it seemed like an indication that Jackson was going to try to contend this season when anyone could have seen that this team should not have been trying to contend this season. At the time, I said that I would wait to judge Jackson’s offseason until we saw which way he was going. If the Rose trade was just about dumping salary, it would be a bad trade, but Jackson’s offseason wouldn’t have been that bad if that was it. But nope, it was, in fact, an indication that he was going to try to contend with veterans with a team that was not going to be a contender even with veterans. So while that didn’t make the Rose trade itself any worse, it made the offseason dreadful, so I sort of still blame that deal for starting things. So fuck that trade. :)

      But while it doesn’t redeem the initial terrible decision, you have to give Jackson a ton of credit if he swaps Rose for Rubio. That totally separate deal is a good one. So good for him if it happens!

    91. Z-man

      “…washed-up former “star” with literally 2 months left on his already-too-big contract…”

      Some would say a phat expiring deal that opens up longer-term cap space squandered on an overrated pass-only PG that no one seems to want.

    92. stratomatic

      @125

      I don’t advocate “greater fool” theory in investing and I don’t advocate it in basketball trades either, but “if” Phil knew the market value for Rose was a lot higher than generally perceived here, you could argue the possible 3 scenarios were :

      1. Rose turned out to be a lot better and healthier than expected and we got a bargain (very low probability).

      2. Phil could get out of the deal with a trade that would net him as much or more than he gave up originally (a scenario few of us even considered)

      3. Rose broke down or was terrible and we got back cap space for next year. That’s a small loss because Lopez was on an attractive contract and we’d be unlikely to get another deal like that in FA.

      When the trade occurred, my possible scenarios were #1 and #3, with 3 being far more likely. So I considered it a poor deal. Had I realized #2 was a legit possibility, then the deal changes. My perception of Rose’s trade value was based on MY perception of his ability. But Phil is not trading with me or you.

    93. Philmelo

      How do people know that Phil didn’t see the benefit of Rose’s expiring contract as part of the value of in trading for him? As it stands, the market for Rose isn’t just confined to Minnesota. Reports say there are multiple offers.

    94. Bruno Almeida

      I mean, it seems impossible still that anyone would look at Rose, then look at Rubio, and seriously think Rose is the more valuable player… Im still not convinced it will happen, to be honest, because the only argument that can be made as to why the Wolves would make the trade is “Thibodeau is fucking stupid”.

      Don’t try to give this success (if it happens) to Phil, please. He’s getting bailed out of a terrible deal he made by another utterly clueless front office. Yes, it’s going to be a good deal if it happens, no, it does not mean he’s a good GM or anything close to that.

    95. Brian Cronin

      I mean, it seems impossible still that anyone would look at Rose, then look at Rubio, and seriously think Rose is the more valuable player… Im still not convinced it will happen, to be honest, because the only argument that can be made as to why the Wolves would make the trade is “Thibodeau is fucking stupid”.

      Don’t try to give this success (if it happens) to Phil, please. He’s getting bailed out of a terrible deal he made by another utterly clueless front office. Yes, it’s going to be a good deal if it happens, no, it does not mean he’s a good GM or anything close to that.

      I mean, you have to give him credit for trading a terrible player for a decent player. I will, if this goes down. If he deals a terrible player for Rubio, good for him. That’s a good deal. Even if it is “lucky,” GMs have to be “lucky” sometimes. Sometimes it is about being the smarter guy in a deal with a dumb guy. That’s not Jackson’s fault. So he gets total credit for this deal if he deals a terrible player for a good one. I’m just not giving him credit for acquiring the terrible player in the first place. But the second trade, sure, rock on, Phil! I hope it happens! Thibs, did you see that play from back in December when Rose went coast to coast in, like, two seconds to score as a quarter ended? Kris Dunn needs that as a mentor for two months!

    96. Philmelo

      I’m sorry but there seems to be a major problem with many posters on this blog where it is assumed that their opinion is synonymous with fact. Reports have said there were multiple teams which have inquired about Rose.

    97. Bruno Almeida

      @131

      Brian, you put it in words much better than me.

      I’m not saying I won’t give him credit, what I meant is that the Rose deal was still horseshit and there’s no way Phil “envisioned” something like this, he got lucky and (hopefully) took advantage of the situation.

    98. Bruno Almeida

      @134

      and what does that mean?

      the Lakers might have called and offered Deng + Mozgov for Rose and our first rounder, that’s an inquiry… the Spurs might have called and asked “how much for Derrick? just kidding” and hung up the phone, another inquiry.

      the only offer that has been showing up is the Wolves offer still, so that is the offer everyone will discuss.

    99. Z-man

      Jowles, Rubio is not just a smart, lower-usage PG. He is an historically bad offensive player. There is only one player other than Rubio who has played more than 30mpg who averaged more than 8 assists and less than 7 FGA, and that was a 24yo Nate McMillan. Rubio is about as bad of a scorer as you can possibly be at PG and still be starting. His TS% is inflated b/c even though he only gets to the line 3.2 times a game, his good FT% outweighs his terrible FG%. He’s good, but far from a savant defensively or as a rebounder. It’s a pretty big deal when your primary ball-handler is not a threat to shoot, especially in today’s NBA.

      But you kee going on thinking he’s on a cap-friendly deal. How long has he been on the trade market? Why are there no takers?

    100. Philmelo

      and what does that mean?

      It means there are other teams who think Rose has value. He didn’t get “lucky” because there’s an actual market of teams that would want him at his current contract.

    101. Hugo Busto

      Rose is a massive expiring contract, there’s always gonna be a market for that. Shouldn’t be a surprise

    102. Philmelo

      Rose is a massive expiring contract, there’s always gonna be a market for that. Shouldn’t be a surprise

      Exactly. No luck about it.

    103. Bruno Almeida

      @139

      No, it means they inquired for him, just that… they might think he’s worthy of a bag of chips, so they called to see if Phil wanted a bag of chips for Derrick Rose, we have no idea.

      And today I learned that Rubio is an historically bad offensive player because he takes 7 shots per game while averaging 8.4 assists…

    104. SJK

      To be completely honest with you, if MIN called and offered a bag of chips for Rose, I’d still do that. Getting Rose off the team accomplishes two goals:

      1) It helps our tank. As bad as Rose is, a Jennings/Baker combo is worse.
      2) It’s better for KP. At least he won’t have to stand out on the three point line while Rose charges to the hoop play after play.

    105. KnickfaninNJ

      We think of ourselves as a board full of pessimists (or “realists”), but almost all of the WL projections for this season turned out to be overly optimistic. Now I am worried we are being too optimistic about possible trades this week

    106. Bruno Almeida

      @143

      oh, I would too, a bag of chips is far more useful than him.

      but it’s pretty bizarre to make conjectures about how teams are seeing value in Rose and how smart Phil is when we literally have heard of one potential offer and “multiple inquiries” by shadow sources.

    107. Bruno Almeida

      Woj just reported that the Bulls are pushing for an Okafor trade now… does this mean Butler is staying and they want to “get better”, or that Butler is gone and they want any young dudes who could maybe develop someday?

    108. Accidentank 2017

      He isn’t having a great game today, but I am so sure Luke Kennard is going to be an excellent pro. He’s much better than Grayson Allen IMO.

    109. MSA

      This is 2015 deja vu.

      Phil built a terrible team trying to be competitive, around the all-star break realizes that the season is lost and now is trying to grab any value for the pile of shit he hired.

      And here we are 2 years later giving Phil credit because he envisioned that he would find a trade for Rose at the trade deadline.

      Come on…

    110. Brian Cronin

      Rose is a massive expiring contract, there’s always gonna be a market for that. Shouldn’t be a surprise

      Oh, I always thought that there would be a market for Rose from some dumb team (I was hoping Sacramento but then they gave up) for, like, a second round pick. For that very reason, that he’s an expiring contract. It’s the same reason I could see a team taking on Jennings, who is also terrible. So sure, hearing teams kicking the tires on Rose doesn’t surprise me. That someone might like Rose enough that he would deal an actual decent player for him, though, that’s very surprising. And if that happens, that will be awesome!

    111. Ben R

      @138

      Rubio doesn’t shoot very much but traditionally PGs that shoot around 10 times a game per 36 are not rare. Rubio averages 9.5 shots per 36 in his career and this season is the first one he has taken less 9 per 36. Hell, Stockton one of the greatest PGs of all time averaged less than one more shot per 36 than Rubio. Rubio is far from perfect but he has a good shot (82% career ft%) so developing consistent 3pt range wouldn’t be surprising. Even if he doesn’t he rates anywhere from slightly above average to excellent in defensive metrics, is a good rebounder and is one of the best passers in the NBA.

      Looking at the PGs in the league, factoring age, contract, and health there are only about 7 or 8 I would take over Rubio at this point. He would be a fantastic addition.

    112. Brian Cronin

      Phil built a terrible team trying to be competitive, around the all-star break realizes that the season is lost and now is trying to grab any value for the pile of shit he hired.

      Hey, at least he was bad enough to botch this season fully. I was afraid of him building a team just good enough to miss out on the top 12 picks. Heck, I’m still worried about that depending on how the rest of the season goes.

    113. Bruno Almeida

      the worst part of this pre-deadline antecipation is the funny feeling in my stomach that the Knicks will screw up everything in a completely unexpected way…

    114. Brian Cronin

      the worst part of this pre-deadline antecipation is the funny feeling in my stomach that the Knicks will screw up everything in a completely unexpected way…

      While I obviously want the team to make good moves period, at the same time, I also just sort of want the deadline to hit just so that we can see where the team’s decision-making stands. For instance, do the Knicks actually value cap space the most in any possible Rose trade? Or do they want Rubio? Do they want Reggie Jackson? I have no clue. And I’d like to have some sort of idea of where their head is at. There are lots of sources going back and forth, and some of them contradict each other (like the “Knicks value cap room the most” source – I hope that that source is full of shit).

    115. Bruno Almeida

      I agree Brian, the fact that we have no idea still which way this team is going is driving me nuts.

      Even if we are keeping this exact same group of players, there’s enough reason to be optimistic that at least a good draft pick is coming our way… but I might be scarred for life when it comes to the Knicks and I still can’t shake off the idea that Jackson is clueless and inept at his job and will find a way to screw up everything.

    116. Kevin Udwary

      While I obviously want the team to make good moves period, at the same time, I also just sort of want the deadline to hit just so that we can see where the team’s decision-making stands.

      Yeah, same here. We have made some actual good value moves under Phil, like the Lopez and O’Quinn contracts and trading THJ for a mid 1st round pick. We’ve also made awful awful moves, like Melo NTC, Rose trade and Noah contract. It’d be really nice to see which direction we are going to move in as Phil learns on the job. Hopefully he is recognizing and learning from his mistakes and we get more good moves, than bad. But if he can actually get value for Rose, maybe he won’t see that initial trade for him as a mistake… Anyways, I’m about 80% sure we’re going to do something stupid, but hold out hope Phil is just learning on the job and isn’t going to repeat the mistakes he has already made.

    117. Jack Bauer

      “There are lots of sources going back and forth, and some of them contradict each other (like the “Knicks value cap room the most” source – I hope that that source is full of shit). ”

      I agree, 99% of the time planning for and clearing up a ton of cap room hoping to hit it big is a large pile of steaming Fools Gold

    118. Bruno Almeida

      @163

      the 2017 one is swap rights and the 2018 is outright theirs, iirc Kevin.

      a silly question: if someone gets the 2017 Nets swap rights from Boston, would the Nets receive their pick in the swap or Boston’s?

    119. Brian Cronin

      I agree, 99% of the time planning for and clearing up a ton of cap room hoping to hit it big is a large pile of steaming Fools Gold

      Luckily, since we don’t know what they’re thinking, we can always just assume that the “they’re looking for cap room” sources are full of shit.

    120. Accidentank 2017

      It’s the right to swap. They got the unprotected picks in 2016 and 2018 so they could only receive the swap.

    121. Brian Cronin

      a silly question: if someone gets the 2017 Nets swap rights from Boston, would the Nets receive their pick in the swap or Boston’s?

      Boston’s.

    122. Bruno Almeida

      and I agree Jack, the news that the Knicks value cap space is literally the one Im most afraid of… it would show the philosophy behind the franchise is still completely fucked up.

      edit: thanks Brian! another reason for the Celtics to hold tight to that 2017 pick.

    123. Brian Cronin

      edit: thanks Brian! another reason for the Celtics to hold tight to that 2017 pick.

      Hm? I don’t get it. Why is that another reason to hold tight to the pick?

    124. Bruno Almeida

      let’s say they have the possibility for a trade: trading away the 2017 pick means they get no pick whatsoever in the 2017 draft, while trading away the 2018 Nets pick still leaves them with their 2018 pick, which is going to be low, of course, but still better than no pick at all in a perceived strong draft… so they would rather hold on to the 2017 Nets pick and trade the 2018 one if possible. (unless they perceive the 2018 draft to be more suited to their needs of course)

      I maybe worded it in a weird way.

    125. Theo

      Why would anyone want Rubio in a Knicks uniform? Yes, he is a bit better than Rose, which means we are going to still suck, just suck a little less.

      As in winning 41 games and picking lower in the draft!

      Rubio is a mediocre pg. He does not move our needle a bit, comes with two more years on his contract and needs one more contract to make salariesmatch. A jewel like Shabazz has been suggested.

      Why on fucking earth would the Knicks want to do that? Isn’t that more of the “win-now” mode everyone has criticized?

      Jesus…you guys are so fucking dumb…

    126. Philmelo

      Sadly, I agree with Theo. Rose is invaluable to our tank. This Rubio deal shouldn’t be made unless we’re serious about making him a starting PG down the line.

    127. DRed

      Yeah man, we’re going to go 18-7 down the stretch thanks to the addiction of a mediocre point guard who barely moves the needle. Great analysis.

    128. Philmelo

      Even if we win 1 or 2 extra games, it makes a difference. Back in 2015 its the difference between a fourth round pick or a first round pick.

    129. Bruno Almeida

      you guys complain all the time about the Knicks having no defense, and then when the Knicks are finally reportedly looking to bring a PG who plays very good defense, he’s a scrub that doesn’t move the needle.

    130. Bruno Almeida

      @182

      I was more answering to theo, and while I’m afraid the Knicks will lose positionsin the lottery if they get Rubio, I don’t think he’s that good to instantly make a huge difference for a team that’s terrible pretty much everywhere else.

      I think the Knicks are not committing to a tank anyway, so getting Rubio for Rose is the best possible value.

    131. JK47

      It would be nice if KP got to play with an actual real NBA point guard. So far he has played with a bunch of bums, and that’s not really helping his development much.

      I’m up for a full-on tank, but if you’re not gonna tank you might as well try to properly develop the young players you DO have.

    132. geo

      you guys complain all the time about the Knicks having no defense, and then when the Knicks are finally reportedly looking to bring a PG who plays very good defense, he’s a scrub that doesn’t move the needle.

      i’m with you on the whole “go defense” thing…which, may in fact not be such a ringing endorsement for your idea there…

      so, with the little bit of knick optimism i have left…i’ll end the day thinking come tomorrow’s night’s game rose is no longer a knick, we have a new defensive and pass first minded point guard and we will not have added some albatross of a contract or player…

    133. Boriqua3

      Rose for Rubio = thumbs up; if only to avoid offering “the flower” a fat contract. Rubio plays D and makes his teammates better.
      It seems like some fans complain for the sake of complaining…

    134. Philmelo

      I think the Knicks are not committing to a tank anyway, so getting Rubio for Rose is the best possible value.

      Rumor is that they’ve tried to trade two starters (Rose and Melo) as well as O’Quinn for a pick. I think a tank is in the cards.

      I’m up for a full-on tank, but if you’re not gonna tank you might as well try to properly develop the young players you DO have.

      There is a thinking that Rose helps KP because of the spacing benefit that results from the threat he poses off the dribble. Word is that KP shoots way higher 3 point percentage with Rose on the floor and that Wiggins shoots worse 3 point percentage with Rubio on the floor for the opposite reason.

    135. Bruno Almeida

      exactly, JK47… as much as I hope for the full tank it just won’t happen, if it was going to happen then O’Quinn at the very least would already be gone.

      if an intentional tank is not coming, the Knicks will win some games by virtue of not being as terrible as some of the other teams that are trying hard to lose, so it’s better to take the trade that sends a complete bum and brings a good player back.

    136. Bruno Almeida

      @187

      I don’t buy into that, ras, I’m sorry.

      the Wolves main backup is Dunn, who is a worse shooter than even Rubio and doesn’t really provide much dribble penetration… and KP plays in the second unit with Jennings, who is terrible, and in the first unit with Melo who, for all we criticize him, is still the main focus of any defense facing the Knicks.

      spacing is not only based on whether your PG can shoot or drive, there’s a million other factors.

    137. Ben R

      I am all for the tank, but we do have to start getting talented players. After this draft we need to try and win. Win properly with players in KP’s window. Rubio is exactly that kind of player. With Rubio, KP, Willy and whoever we draft this year we should try and do as well as we can next year. Losing hurts a players development and right now we have our star in KP and everything we do needs to be with his development and window in mind. We can’t simply tank every year. A high pick this year and then try and compete.

      As for the stat that Wiggins is struggling with Rubio on the floor, I think that is due to the system Thibs put in place. Before this season the timberwolves were consistently better offensively with Rubio on the floor. Oftentimes much better.

    138. Accidentank 2017

      If Rubio gets traded here and starts to play with the same flash he used to when he first got into the NBA? He will be worth the price of admission in MSG. The Euro Squad will attract some serious attention

    139. ClashFan

      I wish something would happen tonight, cuz I have to teach all day tomorrow, and by the time I get home to read and post, there’ll be a thread with 300 posts or so of (probably angst-filled) posts to read through…
      :-)
      Come on, Thibs! Put the BAND back together!

    140. Philmelo

      I do think a player like Rubio would be pumped to play in MSG. Word when he was drafted was that he didn’t want to play in Minnesota in favor of a bigger forum to show off his skills like the Garden.

    141. Accidentank 2017

      The Raptors appear to be offering Sully and a 1st rounder for wing depth. I’ll take that right now for Courtney Lee.

    142. Philmelo

      The Raptors appear to be offering Sully and a 1st rounder for wing depth. I’ll take that right now for Courtney Lee.

      LOL, can we throw in Lance too?

    143. Brian Cronin

      The Raptors appear to be offering Sully and a 1st rounder for wing depth. I’ll take that right now for Courtney Lee.

      Oh, hells yeah. The Raptors’ pick is even higher than the Wizards’ pick right now, right?

    144. alsep73

      What assets do the Suns have that they’d be willing to surrender for Kuzminskas? A 2nd rounder? Do they have any draft-and-stash players?

      At this stage, I’m happy trading anyone other than KP and Willy, even as I’m aware we’re also stuck with Noah and probably Melo. Kuz’s deal is cheap, but like O’Quinn’s, it doesn’t run long enough for us to really take advantage of the value of it in the way that a better team could.

    145. DRed

      The Raptors appear to be offering Sully and a 1st rounder for wing depth. I’ll take that right now for Courtney Lee.

      I’d take that for anyone on the Knicks except Porzingis and Billy

    146. Philmelo

      What assets do the Suns have that they’d be willing to surrender for Kuzminskas? A 2nd rounder? Do they have any draft-and-stash players?

      I would do it for a 2nd rounder.

    147. Z-man

      “Rubio doesn’t shoot very much but traditionally PGs that shoot around 10 times a game per 36 are not rare. Rubio averages 9.5 shots per 36 in his career and this season is the first one he has taken less 9 per 36. Hell, Stockton one of the greatest PGs of all time averaged less than one more shot per 36 than Rubio. Rubio is far from perfect but he has a good shot (82% career ft%) so developing consistent 3pt range wouldn’t be surprising. Even if he doesn’t he rates anywhere from slightly above average to excellent in defensive metrics, is a good rebounder and is one of the best passers in the NBA.

      Looking at the PGs in the league, factoring age, contract, and health there are only about 7 or 8 I would take over Rubio at this point. He would be a fantastic addition.”

      Right, in today’s NBA where 3-pt shooting is all the rage, having a starting PG that shoots 28% is just swell. Among NBA guards who have 4 assists or more a game, he’s 41st in eFG%. He’s only 18th in WS48. How you have him 8th or 9th is pretty generous.

      And bringing up Stockton to defend your point is really a joke. He averaged 4-6 more assists per game, had a career TS% of over .600 and was a career 38% 3pt%. And 10 shots is a 43% increase over 7 shots.

      Rubio is a serviceable but deeply flawed starting PG. He’s better than Rose, but no bargain at $14 million per.

    148. Philmelo

      Rubio is a serviceable but deeply flawed starting PG. He’s better than Rose, but no bargain at $14 million per.

      You do know that Jrue Holiday (he of a career .o80 WP/48) is going to be extended by the Pelicans at near max contract worth?

    149. Bruno Almeida

      damn, that Wolves blogger is pissed at the prospect of getting Rose… I don’t blame him tho, poor soul.

    150. Z-man

      So because teams are willing to overpay Jrue Holiday, that justifies overpaying Rubio?

      It would essentially be getting Robin Lopez back in PG form. Bully.

      Don’t get me wrong, I’d do the deal in a heartbeat, jut not very excited about having Rubio as our starting PG for the next 2.5 years.

    151. Ben R

      @202

      I wasn’t comparing Rubio to Stockton, I was simply showing that you can be an all time great PG and not shoot much. Of course he isn’t close to one of the top 10 PGs to ever play basketball. Overall he is an above average starter, not a star but a solid piece who is 26 and on a good contract.

      I also was not saying he was a top 7 or 8 PG, though I could see how it read like that. What I meant was we are building for the future so any guard over 30 like Parker or Paul is a worse fit, players like Holiday, Hill or Teague who are about to get massively overpaid are worse fits. I’d rate him somewhere in the 13-17 range in current PGs but there are only 7 or 8 PGs that would be better for us.

    152. Philmelo

      So because teams are willing to overpay Jrue Holiday, that justifies overpaying Rubio?

      Yes, that’s what a seller’s market is. Demand for mediocre PG play so outstrips supply that a shittier player than Rubio is getting max money.

    153. Z-man

      Ben R, thanks for the clarification. There’s a huge difference between a PG who can shoot extremely well but chooses not to and a PG who shoots so poorly that he has few peers among starters, but has the good sense to not shoot much because he knows he is bad at it.

    154. Ben R

      I do agree that his lack of shooting is a problem. If it wasn’t he would be an all-star and completely out of reach. The thing about him is that other than scoring he is above average at everything else. He gets to the free throw line well, he defends well, he is one of the best ball hawks, one of the best passers and is a good rebounder.

      Plus he is only 26 and his good shooting from the free throw line and midrange gives at least a glimmer of hope he could become serviceable from 3. Without that shot he is still a solid PG whose pass first mentality should help our bigs. If he ever develops it he could be exactly what we need from our PG for the next 5+ years.

    155. geo

      under the “new” salary payroll…unless they’re on a rookie deal or filling in – will there be many starting guards in the league making less than 14 million a year, other than courtney lee :-)

      i don’t know, 14 million doesn’t really sound like a lot anymore…

    156. Z-man

      Rubio averages 3.2 FTA per game, I wouldn’t call that getting to the FT line well. He’s not exceptional at anything but getting steals, a category that has little value in most advanced metrics. He’s a decent (but not excellent) rebounder for a guard, his ast% of 38% is good but not great, and his TO% is ok but not great.

    157. Cock Jowles, #1 Pythag. Wins Denialist

      http://www.foxsports.com/nba/stats?season=2016&category=ADVANCED&group=1&sort=8&time=0&pos=0&team=0&qual=1&sortOrder=0&opp=0

      I mean he’s only 9th in the league in FT Rate, but I know you “wouldn’t call that getting to the FT line well.” And he was 7th last year.

      So, like, now that you’re wrong, what do you do?

      Also, if Danny Ainge manages to land Butler for a pair of 1st-rounders, he is an absolute genius. I’d expect them to win the East this year if they stay healthy and put out a starting five of Thomas, Butler, Crowder, Johnson and Horford. Filthy front 5, right there.

    158. Bruno Almeida

      from what I’ve seen, the biggest reason why the negotiations stalled was because Chicago was adamant at getting Crowder back, and the Celtics won’t give him up.

      I hope Chicago gives up on the deal, because this Celtics core with Butler AND Crowder would be incredibly scary.

    159. Cock Jowles, #1 Pythag. Wins Denialist

      Giving up Crowder would make the Butler trade a virtual wash in terms of value. His AAV of $7M over the next four full seasons… totally absurd how good that contract is, especially since his numbers continue to improve.

      He performs as you’d hope a #1 overall pick would perform, considering that about half of them are LeBrons, Townses and Davises, and the other half are Bargnanis, Bennetts and Browns…

    160. rama

      “Don’t get me wrong, I’d do the deal in a heartbeat, jut not very excited about having Rubio as our starting PG for the next 2.5 years.”

      I’m pretty excited about it. Young enough to grow with KP and Willy, and a good all-around player, as Ben points out. People are so down on the Knicks they don’t realize this is a good team with even average point guard play. Lee, KP, Willy, Oaq, Melo are all better than average to average. Rose and Jennings are awful. One player would make that much difference simply because of who he’s replacing.

      If you want to argue, like Ras does, that acquiring an average/better than average PG will keep us from fielding a potential championship team in the near-future, that’s a different argument. But Rubio would be an exciting addition. If we got/traded for a high draft pick on top of that, I’d be more excited about this team than any time in the last 15 years.

    161. JK47

      We’re kind of whipping ourselves into a Ricky Rubio frenzy here, but dude is probably not even coming here. I expect only minor moves, like Justin Holiday moved for a protected second rounder or something completely inconsequential like that. Phil Jackson is not good at this shit.

    162. rama

      Hard to say what’s possible at this particular deadline. I know you hate Phil, but he has done good stuff before, stuff no one here predicted, like hiring Hornacek.

    163. Brian Cronin

      We’re kind of whipping ourselves into a Ricky Rubio frenzy here, but dude is probably not even coming here. I expect only minor moves, like Justin Holiday moved for a protected second rounder or something completely inconsequential like that. Phil Jackson is not good at this shit.

      That’s the annoying thing about the various sources we’re seeing. The king of all sources, Woj, has been saying some bad shit (namely that other teams have been inquiring on Rose, but only in a general, “You’re giving him away, right?” sense) but David Aldridge isn’t too shabby himself (he’s no Woj, but who is Woj?) and he has Thibs saying that he wants to upgrade from Rubio and that he sees Rose as an upgrade (which seems odd since the Wolves are going nowhere this season, so what good would it to to get an “upgrade” for the last couple of months, unless the Wolves would plan on committing to Rose long term, maybe?), which is obviously great news to hear. So I really don’t know what to think.

      Before all of this, I would have been thrilled to get a second rounder or a late first for Rose, which I figured was a doable deal (big expiring contracts sometimes have some value). And that seems to be how Woj is reporting things, but the other reports give me hope that the Knicks could actually get something legit for Rose, which would be swell. But I don’t know whose sources are the correct ones!

    164. Philmelo

      I think that if the trade went down to Rose straight up for Rubio, a deal would have been made. Phil is holding this trade up over a demand that Thibs include someone like Dunn, Bjelica, Pekovic or maybe even a draft pick. I don’t blame Phil for trying to get as much as he can since the Wolves called him according to the reports. But if he’s serious about moving Rose and push comes to shove at the deadline, Phil will just have to cave in and do the deal.

    165. Brian Cronin

      Possibly, or the Wolves could have called up to offer a second rounder for Rose and then said that the deal could expand to Rubio if the Knicks kicked in a draft pick. Jordan Schultz said a couple of hours ago on Twitter, “Per source, unlikely Ricky Rubio is dealt unless Minny gets a first rounder – and a high one at that – in return.”

      And followed that with, “In essence, #Twolves are super high on Kris Dunn and would love to open more minutes for him to play w/Towns, but seek real value for #Rubio”

      I’m not saying Schultz is correct, of course, as he could be full of shit. But there’s no way to tell at this point. It’s all a bunch of anonymous sources spouting all sorts of stuff.

      The only person I really trust on this stuff is Woj (Shams is second, but it’s not a close second), and he hasn’t said much on the Rose situation either way, which suggests to me that he isn’t that plugged in on it.

    166. Philmelo

      If that’s the offer Thibs can go fuck off. He’s nuts. Knicks can get a no shooting, unselfish, defense oriented PG where they’re at in the draft by selecting De’Aaron Fox.

    167. Brian Cronin

      Agreed, I certainly would not expect any team to trade a high first rounder for Rubio. But that’s the weird thing about the Rubio stuff period. The dude’s a decent player who is signed for two more years after this. Are the Wolves seriously that desperate to get rid of him right this instant? For a guy who’s going to be available as a free agent on July 1st? It wouldn’t shock me, because former coaches so far have done some pretty weird stuff once they’ve become GMs, so maybe Thibs is just a bad GM. But it also wouldn’t shock me if the Wolves just hold on to him if they don’t get a better offer for him.

    168. Brian Cronin

      They’re clearly trying to trade him, hence the calls. It’s just a matter of what they’re trying to get in return.

    169. heavencent35

      We will hit a home run if we were able to get Reggie Jackson and nick young. Plus we’ll have a cap space to sign Rudy gay this summer. It can’t get very Knicksy than that. Jackson rose gay melo and kp will be our pipe dream 5

    170. Brian Cronin

      Nick Young is so lame that I don’t think he’d even be a Knicksy move at this point! That’s how bad he is! The other guys, though, yeah, those would be Knicksy moves.

    171. richmond

      Houston got better, NOLA could be a threat at 8th seed, and Phil still smoke sage with his 11 rings pondering how great a coach he was.. trade Rose and Noah already

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