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Friday, May 26, 2017

Knicks Morning News (2017.02.15)

  • [NY Newsday] Charles Oakley ‘hurt’ and wants MSG to apologize to fans as his ban is lifted
    (Tuesday, February 14, 2017 7:51:47 PM)

    Charles Oakley said he is hurt and wants a public apology before he steps back into Madison Square Garden.

  • [NY Newsday] Carmelo Anthony on short list to replace Kevin Love in All-Star Game
    (Tuesday, February 14, 2017 7:19:00 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony may be on the short list to replace Cleveland Cavaliers forward Kevin Love in this weekend’s NBA All-Star Game, but he says he would have to ask his family before accepting such an invitation.

  • [NY Newsday] Charles Oakley-James Dolan truce brokered by Adam Silver, Michael Jordan
    (Tuesday, February 14, 2017 12:14:00 PM)

    Charles Oakley could be back at Madison Square Garden as a guest of Knicks owner James Dolan in the near future.

  • [NYPost] Jeff Hornacek on why Russell Westbrook is a coach’s dream
    (Tuesday, February 14, 2017 8:34:44 PM)

    It isn’t the stats, even if they show Russell Westbrook on pace to become just the second player ever to average a triple-double for a full season. It is the eyes. That is what makes Westbrook stand out to Knicks coach Jeff Hornacek. “Look at his eyes. That guy has that determined, ‘I am going…

  • [NYPost] ‘This is the team’: Carmelo and Hornacek think trade drama’s done
    (Tuesday, February 14, 2017 2:05:40 PM)

    For almost one week, Carmelo Anthony has been able to breathe a bit. Most of the talk around the Knicks concerned team legend Charles Oakley and his feud with team owner James Dolan. So talk of waiving no-trade clauses and potential deals was overshadowed. Until Tuesday. But this came in the form of something Anthony…

  • [NYPost] Oakley won’t accept end of MSG ban until Dolan shamed publicly
    (Tuesday, February 14, 2017 6:26:07 AM)

    Well, so much for that happy ending between Knicks legend Charles Oakley and team owner James Dolan. With Oakley’s potential lifetime ban lifted through Dolan’s invitation to the former player to return to the Garden as his guest, Oakley said thanks but no thanks. The former bruising power forward and fan favorite from Pat Riley’s…

  • [NYTimes] Knicks’ James Dolan Offers Apology; Charles Oakley Says He Won’t Accept It
    (Wednesday, February 15, 2017 12:57:49 AM)

    A day after a private meeting with the owner Dolan seemed to end his ban from Madison Square Garden, Oakley said he would not be quick to forgive.

  • [NYTimes] Charles Oakley Has Issues With a New York Team Owner. He’s Not the First.
    (Tuesday, February 14, 2017 2:00:27 PM)

    The city has had its share of dust-ups between the men who own sports teams and those employed by the franchises.

  • [NYTimes] Coach Jeff Hornacek Expects Knicks to Remain Intact at Trade Deadline
    (Wednesday, February 15, 2017 12:37:15 AM)

    Carmelo Anthony, among others, has been mentioned in rumors, but Hornacek said he was planning on leading the same roster after the All-Star game break.

  • [SNY Knicks] GEICO SportsNite: Jeff Hornacek, Carmelo Anthony speak on off-day
    (Wednesday, February 15, 2017 12:05:48 AM)

    Coach Jeff Hornacek and Carmelo Anthony talk about the Charles Oakley incident and the Knicks? upcoming game against Oklahoma City.

  • [SNY Knicks] Report: Knicks lift Charles Oakley’s Madison Square Garden ban
    (Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:20:38 AM)

    The Knicks have lifted Charles Oakley’s ban from Madison Square Garden.

  • [SNY Knicks] Ex-Knick Greg Anthony believes treatment of Oakley will hurt franchise
    (Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:15:32 AM)

    Former Knick Greg Anthony believes the Knicks’ treatment of his former teammate Charles Oakley will hurt the team’s chances of signing future free agents.

  • [ESPN] Wednesday’s Knicks News: Will Melo replace Love?
    (Wednesday, February 15, 2017 4:59:54 AM)

    Wednesday’s Knicks News: Will Melo replace Love?

  • [ESPN] Vote: Who should replace Kevin Love in the NBA All-Star Game?
    (Tuesday, February 14, 2017 12:55:09 PM)

    Vote: Who should replace Kevin Love in the NBA All-Star Game?

  • [ESPN] Sources: Knicks lift ban; Oakley seeks apology
    (Tuesday, February 14, 2017 10:57:11 AM)

    Sources: Knicks lift ban; Oakley seeks apology

  • [NYDN] Love’s injury doesn’t change chances of Knicks trade
    (Tuesday, February 14, 2017 7:13:09 PM)

    Poor LeBron James.

  • [NYDN] Carmelo Anthony, Jeff Hornacek seeks positives in season of chaos
    (Tuesday, February 14, 2017 7:12:09 PM)

    James Dolan has lifted his Garden ban of Charles Oakley.

  • [NYDN] Dolan, Oakley need to make up and end latest MSG grudge
    (Tuesday, February 14, 2017 7:06:13 PM)

    Beyoncé’s acceptance speech at the Grammys lasted longer than Charles Oakley’s MSG ban.

  • [NYDN] Porzingis could replace Love at All-Star Game as Carmelo rests
    (Tuesday, February 14, 2017 12:56:01 PM)

    The Cavaliers were dealt a significant blow Tuesday when Kevin Love underwent arthroscopic knee surgery.

  • [NYDN] Knicks dysfunction plus Giants talk with Pat Leonard: DN Podcast
    (Tuesday, February 14, 2017 10:10:54 AM)

    After a one-week hiatus, the Daily News Sports Talk Podcast returns with a brand new episode.

  • [NYDN] Hornacek doesn’t expect Knicks to trade Carmelo before deadline
    (Tuesday, February 14, 2017 10:07:59 AM)

    For weeks, Carmelo Anthony and the Knicks have been at the center of NBA trade speculation.

  • [NYDN] Forget the ban, Knicks legend Charles Oakley wants public apology
    (Tuesday, February 14, 2017 8:37:05 AM)

    After James Dolan announced Friday that Charles Oakley was indefinitely barred from entering MSG, the Knicks owner has changed his mind.

  • 160 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.02.15)

    1. Totes McGoats

      That Ibaka trade is such a nice move for the Raptors. I’m anxious to see them play together. With or without the Love injury, that lineup looks like it will give Cleveland some serious problems. Does anyone think the Cavs will be more inclined to push for Melo? They’d hafta give up some serious assets now since Love isn’t an immediate answer for anyone- and I don’t see why Phil would ask for him other than to flip him somewhere else with Willy & KP up front. Neither player is better than Love, but their games fit so much better together than Love & KP. That’s something to build upon. So unless you’re flipping Love for a great guard or high lottery pick to put with Willy & KP, I don’t see the need to ask for Love.

    2. Theo

      Only problem with all fantsy trade scenarios concocted by Knicks fan is that the rest of the world does not necessarily see Melo as a solution or even a star player at this point in his career.

      Knicks are NOT in a position to ask for (or get) much of value for Melo.

      Can we deal with reality once in a while?

    3. Theo

      At this point, the most sensible course of action would be to fire Phil Jackson. Continue developing the young players to see what’s salvageable and let the ugly contracts expire.

      An organic, realistic rebuild not predicated on fantasy notions of the Knicks magically landing a superstar in the draft and magically becoming a great team without much additional thought.

      Tanking is not a very realistic option for the Knicks. Or even a good one.

    4. Bruno Almeida

      we’re all dealing with reality, which is the fact that a trade hasn’t happened and most of the rumors died down.

      when it comes to the Knicks, reality is quite boring to be honest.

    5. Philmelo

      Build around a young core? What young core? A basement dweller told me that all we have is Cole Aldrich and Andrea Bargiani 2.0?

    6. Theo

      when it comes to the Knicks, reality is quite boring to be honest.

      That’s because all conversations are based on delusional dreams where the Knicks fleece other teams, Phil Jackson has all the leverage and Melo is a superstar that all real superstars want to play with, instead of being the shitty has-been we want to get rid of.

      Things would be far more interesting if we discussed REALISTIC possibilities for improving the team, instead of letting the conversation be hijacked by the delusional.

      How much time has been wasted talking about how Doc Rivers would come begging for Melo? How LeBron was going to use his power to trade Love and draft picks for Melo? How we are going to land a superstar in the draft? How mindless tanking is the magical cure to all that ails the Knicks? *That* is boring.

    7. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      How exactly is tanking not the best option? What’s the alternative, making the playoffs and staying with our old, mediocre core? Signing better players and maxing out our cap space to hit our ceiling as a 5 seed? What’s the endgame without getting a very high draft pick over the next year or two?

      There would be no endgame. If we don’t entertain these scenarios we’re left with “wait for all the shitty contracts Jackson gave out to expire and hope our #15 draft picks work out.” Which is probably the most uninteresting discussion of all possible discussions we could be having on this forum.

    8. Theo

      How exactly is tanking not the best option? What’s the alternative?

      That’s a good, interesting, legitimate question. As opposed to just assuming that the discussion took place and the unanimous consensus is that tanking alone will magically cure all ills.

      For one, tanking is not easy to do: it’s not legal, players have no incentive to participate because it just hurts their careers, coaches have no incentiv to add losing records to their resumes and management can’t afford the risk of some disgruntled ex-employee or ex-player denouncing the tactic to the press.

      So, things are not as simpke as saying “let’s tank, guys!”.

      Another point (and there are many more): the Knicks are bad enough that they may not need to tank, even if they could. But is tanking the only avenue or best avenue toward improvement? That’s a far better conversation than spending our days discussing what to do with that Brooklyn pick (magically coming via a Melo trade) or our 1st draft pick (obtained when we tank!).

    9. Totes McGoats

      Only problem with all fantsy trade scenarios concocted by Knicks fan is that the rest of the world does not necessarily see Melo as a solution or even a star player at this point in his career.

      Knicks are NOT in a position to ask for (or get) much of value for Melo.

      Can we deal with reality once in a while?

      Bit of a stretch when it comes to the Cavs, but for the most part I agree. My opinion on the Cavs is rooted in reality. They are gonna drop in the standings without Love, and it’s possible they may not get back to their standard of play in time to get out of the Eastern Conference- considering the timing of Love’s injury and the emergence of Boston and Washington. Plus the Ibaka trade looks X Factor-ish, and Miami’s been on a roll and they have the room and assets to be buyers at the deadline. A couple of weeks ago, it was a foregone conclusion that the finals match-up would once again be Cleveland and The Dubs. I’m not so sure about that now.

    10. Bruno Almeida

      ok Theo, I’ll bite for now.

      please introduce one topic of conversation about realistic possibilities for improving the team.

      what would you do?

    11. Theo

      ok Theo, I’ll bite for now.

      please introduce one topic of conversation about realistic possibilities for improving the team.

      what would you do?

      Oh, Bruno – you can do far better than that! The idea is not to have Poster X offering his views while the rest of the blog shoots them down with the only objective of ‘winning’ an argument.

      The idea is not that I alone have the answers. Far from that: I have many doubts, questions and yes, ideas about what could be done, yet I’m not sure it’s the right thing to do.

      The idea is for everyone to offer different perspectives grounded in reality (Melo to the Cavs for Love plus 2 draft picks is not realistic, even after the injury; Knicks tanking to get Lonzo Ball and assuming he is a guaranteed star is not realistic). The idea is to have open-minded, smart, productive conversations, not the deranged ‘volume posting’ that silenced or drove away some of the best posters the blog has had.

    12. the don nelson era

      The idea is to have open-minded, smart, productive conversations, not the deranged ‘volume posting’ that silenced or drove away some of the best posters the blog has had.

      gee that’s rich!

    13. Ambrosenyk

      Theo is not wrong, multiple perspectives/opinions should be encouraged. Ideally, those opinions would be backed up with some empirical figures to maximize discussion. However, if a majority of this board thinks talking about the Knicks adding an additional top 10 pick via a Melo trade (such as that Bklyn pick) is viable simply because it’s “possible”, I don’t know why Theo’s alternate perspective (Melo lacks value and will need to packaged with an asset) is labeled to be trolling. His perspective is just as “possible”.

    14. Bruno Almeida

      well, see, I don’t buy into the idea that some people have been voicing that “you can’t have a decent discussion here anymore, that’s why I dont bother posting anything anymore”.

      that’s why I asked you to bring a new topic of conversation, because it’s really easy to come to a public message board and say “all you guys are discussing is shit!!!”, and yet, you and all those posters have the same possibility to bring forth topics of conversation that are more conducive to open-minded, productive and smart conversations, yet never do.

      I’ve seen people complain about all the posters do now is “bitch about the Knicks”, well, then how is bitching about the bitching going to help in any way? And don’t tell me open-minded conversations are “shut down” or anything; if you can’t provide reasoning for the other posters they will disagree with you, and if you’re so sensitive that a vehement disagreement will make you feel “shut down”, well, you probably should stay out of message boards in the first place.

    15. mase

      He makes a valid point. We have to give up something to get something.

      Everyone agrees about that already. Koq Holliday and kuz and Jennings are all assets that could sweeten a melo deal or garner some picks on their own to a buyer like Miami or l.a.. right?

      We are sellers, let’s get a deal done like Toronto did yesterday with Orlando.

    16. Bruno Almeida

      and Theo, you’ll have to agree that 90% of your posts at the very least are antagonizing people, telling them they are deluded, stupid and incapable of seeing reality.

      how is that conducive to open-minded conversations?

      your Hernangomez argument, for example: you say he’s not going to amount for anything, and yet has never given a single argument as to why except that your eye test tells you he’s Cole 2.0, when advanced metrics say otherwise. how can you expect people to not disagree with it, when all you do is tell people who have a different view that they are deluded and stupid?

    17. KnickfaninNJ

      Here’s a different topic. Derrick Williams just scored 13 points on 5 for 7 shooting with 6 rebounds in 23 minutes in what I think was his first game for Cleveland. He was plus fifteen in a game that was won by eight points. Do we want him back? Did Miami make a mistake in letting him go?

    18. mase

      He’s baiting you about Willy. Don’t take the bait!

      Willy is out second best player already. That’s factorial.

    19. Bruno Almeida

      @18

      I watched the game and he and Frye in particular played really well… it will be fun to see what Williams can do, finally playing for a good team the first time in his career.

    20. mase

      I felt that Williams and Galloway should’ve gotten re signed… if you’re giving lance a contract why not those two?

    21. Theo

      your Hernangomez argument, for example: you say he’s not going to amount for anything, and yet has never given a single argument as to why except that your eye test tells you he’s Cole 2.0, when advanced metrics say otherwise.

      Actually, I’m very clear on Hernangomez: he is a slow player with very little lateral movement who doesn’t pkay much defense. He is most likely a career bench player, a journeyman. That was – and is – my assessment of him and my reply to thse who claim, without any proof, that he is a superstar in the making.

      And yes, I did compare him to Cole Adrich because the people projecting Willy as a future superstar are using the exact same argument people used in the past to ‘prove’ that Cole Aldrich was a potential superstar, one of the best centers in the NBA, but only needed to ply more minutes. What was that argument? Hand-picked advanced stats!

      So, I said and maintain my point: based on ALL stats plus my experience watching decades of basketball, odds are Hernangomez’ career will be similar to Cole Aldrich’s.

      Check the blog archives for what people were saying aboyt Aldrich a few years ago. What are they saying now?

    22. Bruno Almeida

      I think it’s fine to say Willy is not a superstar in the making; but Cole was 26 when he had a good season with the Knicks (and he has an ever better right after with the Clippers, who didn’t re-sign him because he commanded a bigger contract than they could offer), while Willy is 22.

      unless you believe development of young players is a fallacy, it is expectable that Willy will work on his flaws and that’s why many people are hopeful of him… of course there’s no proof, no one can see the future but he’s not Cole Aldrich, he’s s different person, so it really doesn’t make a difference what happened with Cole outside of conjecture.

      but see? you don’t really want open-minded discussions, you want to be right. we’ve all been watching basketball for decades here and still have different opinions, and yet every opinion that’s not yours has got to be delusion because opinions 3 years ago were eventually arguably proven wrong.

    23. Frank

      Actually, I’m very clear on Hernangomez: he is a slow player with very little lateral movement who doesn’t pkay much defense. He is most likely a career bench player, a journeyman. That was – and is – my assessment of him and my reply to thse who claim, without any proof, that he is a superstar in the making.

      I will feed the troll too. I’m not saying Willy is definitely a great defender by any means, but Theo, since you say those who claim he’s a superstar in the making have no proof, what is your proof that he doesn’t play much defense? He has a very good DRtg despite being on a terrible defensive team – per NBA.com he has the 10th best DRtg of any center in the league (minimum 40 games played). His rim protection stats are solid on Sportvu tracking. His DRPM is +1.39 which is better than a host of “good defensive centers” such as Marc Gasol, Noah, Biyombo, and Robin Lopez, and which falls in the above-average category. He’s a very good defensive rebounder (12th among all centers), an underrated/underestimated part of playing defense.

      So that’s my “proof” – not definite or conclusive by any means, but it’s something that has some statistical backing. What is your “proof”?

    24. Theo

      Hand-picked stats are not proof. Hand-picked stats about a guy who can’t even manage to start in one if the worst NBA teams are even less. Hand-picked stats about a guy playing garbage and substitution time are even less of a proof.

      You offered proof about how skewed those stats are: according to them, Hernangomez might be better than Marc Gasol.

      Reminds me of Jowles making the argument that stats proved Chandler was a better offensive player than Meli…lol…yep, it’s true: advanced stats proved it!!!

      Remember the “5 Chandlers Lineup” jokes?

      This is the same. Willy is better than Gasol! Stats prove it!

    25. Ambrosenyk

      Chandler’s TS% was light years better than Melo’s, but because Melo can do that sick spin move and make those hella cool jump shots, he’s a better offensive player than Chandler?

      Chandler was a better offensive player than Melo because, at the end of the day, it’s about production, not the the abstract concept of “talent”.

    26. Nick C.

      I could have sworn I heard Jeff Van Gundy, Mark Jackson and/or Hubie Brown speaking very highly about Willy H.

    27. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Yeah unfortunately dignifying Theo with responses just allows him to deflect and straw man more without making any kind of positive case.

    28. Bruno Almeida

      the fact that Willy doesn’t start is Hornacek’s fault, not an argument… everything indicates that he should, but humans make those decisions and they make mistakes too.

      it’s about being more productive or more efficient. Chandler was a much more efficient player than Melo, which in turn makes him a better overall basketball player, because that’s what basketball is about in its most core concept: score more baskets than your opponents while having a similar amount of possessions, and you will win. Chandler was more efficient at that than Melo.

      and your preconceived ideas are what kills your arguments to me: how is it so absolutely impossible that in certain parts of basketball Willy is a more productive basketball player than Marc Gasol? how is that so impossible, because the media says Marc is a star, while Willy plays for a coach that would rather give Noah’s corpse minutes?

    29. thenamestsam

      Williams’ big problem is that while in theory he seems like a big wing who can shoot (basically the player that every NBA team can’t get enough of) he can’t actually shoot (career 29 3P%). Particularly with the Cavs the most important thing any role player can do by far is stretch the floor. They don’t need shot creation, they just need guys to defend and knock down open jumpers. Doesn’t seem like a great fit to me.

    30. er

      Chandler was a better offensive player than Melo because, at the end of the day, it’s about production, not the the abstract concept of “talent”.

      I will never agree with this. Chandlers job was to NOT shoot anything but layups so that players like Melo and Stat. andJR could shoot shots further out. How the hell does that make you better?

      Pnr bigs like chandler and Jordan are different animals and can’t really be compared to others. Is chandler. Better offensive player than Shaq or wilt?

    31. Ambrosenyk

      Tyson’s career TS% is a solid tier above both Shaq’s and Wilt’s. We can debate about the other numbers for the respective players, but that TS discrepancy can not be ignored or written off. Tyson was a VERY GOOD player for us, and I hate that Knick fans write him off because of the lack of flash to his game.

    32. Bruno Almeida

      @37

      the way I see it, no player is ever forced to routinely take bad shots… it might happen on a couple of occasions a game, but they are not really statistically relevant.

      bad shots are for me long 2s (unless they are completely wide open, and even then 3s are always better), heavily contested running layups, 3s or post shots. the long 2s Carmelo takes when he jab steps 5 times and shoots over a defender are the quintessential example of bad shot.

      Chandler’s game led him to shoot closer to the basket in optimal positions, that’s why he was more efficient… Harden is a good example of a shot creator that does this properly, he understands the best shots in the court will always be free throws, layups, dunks, floaters or open 3s, and he molds his game around the idea of either taking those shots or creating them to his teammates. Melo’s game is pretty much all predicated on hitting bad shots and that’s pretty much his fault.

    33. Ambrosenyk

      So ESPN is ranking the top 50 players 25 and under. Most of the list is laughably shite and in accordance with no known metrics, but they just ranked KP at 6, which is pretty cool. Jokic was ranked 8 for those wondering. Say what you will about KP, but it seems he has the respect of the main stream media at this point in time.

    34. d-mar

      Here’s a different topic. Derrick Williams just scored 13 points on 5 for 7 shooting with 6 rebounds in 23 minutes in what I think was his first game for Cleveland.

      LeBron is like PED’s for role players. Come to Cleveland and get more wide open shots, more dunks and like Shumpert, just stand in the corner on offense and wait for the ball to be passed to you.

      I’m not gonna rue the day we didn’t re-sign Derrick Williams

    35. er

      @40 Bruno, i didnt even say bad shots. I said further shots. Hell, even non layup shots within 10 ft. No player makes the same percentage of these shots vs layups. Knock down shooters shoot like 60-70% on wide open 2s. Layups are like 85-95%. No person is taking Chandler over Shaq/Wilt/Kareem. His ts% is way higher than those guys.

    36. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Derrick Williams works nicely on that team if he takes the court with Thompson or other good defensive players to cover up his deficiencies in rebounding and defense. As an energy guy who gets 15 minutes a night and draws free throw a fair bit you could do worse. Don’t let him shoot beyond 15 feet though.

      He should never be on the floor in crunch time though. He’s horrific on d, as we all know.

    37. Will the Thrill

      Theo’s only proof is that Willy looks slow, and he doesn’t get a lot of minutes. If you’re going to shit on other people’s opinions on why Willy could end up being a good starting center, give us something more than that!

    38. Brian Cronin

      The sad thing is most casual fans would take Wiggins over Jokic if they had the choice.

      Heck, a decent chunk of ESPN analysts would take Wiggins over Jokic! Remember the debate on ESPN last year about whether Wiggins would be “just” Melo or be a superstar? Yikes, they sure do love their pointz.

    39. Ambrosenyk

      On this particular list, Wiggins is ranked outside the top ten, behind KP, Beal, and Jabari Parker so…progress?

    40. Brian Cronin

      Oh yeah, don’t get me wrong, the mainstream media definitely has finally seemed to see the truth of Wiggins’ game this year. When, almost three years in, you’re still the same mediocre player you were as a rookie, even a media predisposed to like you is going to start giving up on you.

      But that same “credit for what people thought of you in the past” is likely leading to KP ranking higher than Jokic, because, come on, how else could you possibly rank KP over Jokic at this point? They’re even the same age!

    41. Will the Thrill

      I am in the advanced stats crowd, but there certainly is a balance to usage and ts% which can’t be ignored. Only looking at ts% doesn’t give you the full picture. Somebody has to take the shots that Chandler refuses to take. If there were no shot clock then looking solely at ts% may be viable because there is no reason not to shoot anything other than a layup or three. The time constraint on possessions means something. If the pick and roll with Chandler doesn’t work with 15 seconds left in the shot clock, you go to someone else because Chandler is probably the worst player on the court to have the ball in a non-pick and roll scenario. That’s where a higher usage player is crucial. Not saying Melo was even better than Chandler due to his relative inefficiencies, but Shaq and Wilt were without question.

    42. Ambrosenyk

      Absolutely. Jokic’s treatment in the MSM has been something that I’ve been following closely and, for the most part, have been quite disappointing. He should be openly referred to as a superstar by the end of the year the latest IMO. Matter of fact, I wonder if Jokic himself has any idea of how good his production has been by the way the media has been (relatively) downplaying it.

    43. Brian Cronin

      I am in the advanced stats crowd, but there certainly is a balance to usage and ts% which can’t be ignored. Only looking at ts% doesn’t give you the full picture. Somebody has to take the shots that Chandler refuses to take. If there were no shot clock then looking solely at ts% may be viable because there is no reason not to shoot anything other than a layup or three. The time constraint on possessions means something. If the pick and roll with Chandler doesn’t work with 15 seconds left in the shot clock, you go to someone else because Chandler is probably the worst player on the court to have the ball in a non-pick and roll scenario. That’s where a higher usage player is crucial. Not saying Melo was even better than Chandler due to his relative inefficiencies, but Shaq and Wilt were without question.

      Oh sure, TS% isn’t the end all be all. Wilt and Shaq were better offensive players. It’s interesting, though, Chandler is actually a player where the “eye test” is valuable, as if you watch Knick games during Chandler’s time here, he didn’t even need to touch the ball to still clearly be the driving force of the offense, as so much of the Knicks’ system ran off of either Chandler PNRs or the threat of Chandler PNRs.

    44. Bruno Almeida

      @44

      but er, ts% doesn’t prove that.

      what if Chandler was a more efficient scorer than those guys? is that so far-fetched to think about? mind you that I didn’t say better, or more versatile, or more important, just more efficient.

      and there’s another caveat Jowles brought that is very important here: league-wide the efficiency numbers are all up in the last couple of years… so a .580 ts% 20 years ago would be similar in relation to the rest of the league to a .630 ts% today, let’s say.

      ts% is a great indicator of what I believe is the most important thing in offense: taking good shots… but it’s not the ultimate criteria to say if a player is better than the other, its just one of the best tools we have.

    45. Brian Cronin

      Absolutely. Jokic’s treatment in the MSM has been something that I’ve been following closely and, for the most part, have been quite disappointing. He should be openly referred to as a superstar by the end of the year the latest IMO. Matter of fact, I wonder if Jokic himself has any idea of how good his production has been by the way the media has been (relatively) downplaying it.

      I would imagine that the delay in coverage has to be at least in part driven by his own coach barely playing him earlier this season. That was likely some sort of weird mind game by Malone (who I’ve always regarded as an intelligent coach), but it still made it look to the mainstream media as though Jokic was regressing.

    46. Bruno Almeida

      I agree that someone has to take the shots, will, but that’s mostly because outdated offensive schemes don’t center themselves around the idea of creating solely good shots.

      I mean, watch Houston play, the entire offensive scheme is predicated on putting guys into the position to take good shots and he is the key that unlocks the entire court for that to happen. does it work without a transcendent star like Harden? probably not as well, but it’s not like every other NBA player is 100% incapable of driving and passing or creating space by moving around the court.

    47. Theo

      I just love to see how the average poster here truly believes that Chandler is a better offensive player than Melo because a certain stat says so – without taking into account the different roles and the different manner in which the scoring took place….lol…

      But then again, the numbers don’t lie: Tyson Chandler is not only a better offensive player than Melo – he is SIGNIFICANTLY better than Michael Jordan!!!!

      Jordan’s career TS: 0.569
      Chandler’s career TS: 0.624

      Talk about being clueless and not understanding what dtats actually mean…lol

    48. er

      what if Chandler was a more efficient scorer than those guys? is that so far-fetched to think about? mind you that I didn’t say better, or more versatile, or more important, just more efficient.

      Well of course. That’s literally what the higher TS% means, higher effeciency. I was more so responding to the “better” offensive player claims

    49. Bruno Almeida

      so why don’t we keep it at that? Chandler was a more efficient scorer throughout his career than those legends, that’s a merit in my eyes.

    50. Theo

      When dwciding that Chandler is a better offensive player than Melo, VORP, BPM, etc. don’t count, of course. Only stats that help paint whatever picture is desired. So many advanced stats guys here! Lol

    51. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      maybe another way to put it is: who would you rather have on your offense, peak melo or peak Chandler?

      Give me peak Chandler every time–having a pick and roll threat is so key in today’s league.

      Peak Melo was no offensive slouch either though. But if he’s not bombing 3’s at a 40% clip in a spread offense he defaults to contested midrangers which are pretty unhealthy for any offensive system in today’s NBA. He’s good at hitting them, sure, but it’s still suboptimal.

      Incidentally, Melo’s best years came when defenses has to adjust to the presence of a Tyson Chandler dive and lob which literally made our offense possible.

    52. Bruno Almeida

      I would rather have Chandler if I was starting a team now, for sure, but that’s because I put efficiency at a premium.

      Melo is inefficient for a wing player, that’s the issue with him; it’s not that he’s inefficient compared to Centers, he’s inefficient, period.

    53. Theo

      Everybody in the NBA is wrong and a few clueless stat heads are right: Chandler, not Melo or Jordan, should have been the one getting the recognition and max contracts as great offensive players!

      Hey, DeAndre Jordan is probably a better offensive player than LeBron James!

    54. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      @60

      Peak Chandler wipes the floor with peak Melo in every single advanced stat with the exception of VORP, which has a positive adjustment for minutes played (Melo has played more minutes bc fewer injury issues.) and those metrics don’t even adequately capture how good Chandler was on the defensive side of the ball and how bad Melo was on that side.

    55. Brian Cronin

      Incidentally, Melo’s best years came when defenses has to adjust to the presence of a Tyson Chandler dive and lob which literally made our offense possible.

      Yeah, Chandler really was the engine behind the offense while he was here. Whether that means he is a “better” offensive player than Melo, I dunno. Chandler was the better overall player at his peak, though. Melo might have an edge, career-wise, since Chandler missed so much time over the years. Melo’s had an amazing career in and of itself, though. These things are all relative, ya know?

    56. Theo

      Oh, shit!!!

      Deandre Jordan has a 0.627 TS. Lebron’s is 0.583!

      Deandre Jordan is a better offensive player! TS says so!

    57. kevin5318

      It is an interesting argument. I’d probably take prime Melo first as it would be easier to surround him with defenders than it would be to surround Tyson with high usage guys to take shots he can’t.

      I can see the argument for Tyson as I do think he is underrated for the most part.

    58. Theo

      Chandler’s 0.627TS shows he ‘s a better offensive player than Steph Curry! (0.617 only). Better at defense, too! Better rebounder! More efficient on offense!

      Warriors should trade Curry for Chandler!

    59. Philmelo

      We’re 9th worse in the league right now and need to keep that low status by losing against OKC. Only game that has a likelihood of helping us out tonight is the LA/PHI game.

    60. Brian Cronin

      It is an interesting argument. I’d probably take prime Melo first as it would be easier to surround him with defenders than it would be to surround Tyson with high usage guys to take shots he can’t.

      I can see the argument for Tyson as I do think he is underrated for the most part.

      Interesting, I tend to think guys like Chandler are rarer in the NBA than guys like Melo. Who in the NBA today is comparable to prime Chandler? Jordan is pretty much it, no? Great defenders who convert pretty much everything they get by the basket. I think there are more players similar to Melo out there. It’s certainly fair to note, though, that the players more similar to Melo are a lot more famous than the guys similar to Chandler.

    61. Theo

      Numbers begin to unveil the truth in basketball: Chandler (0.627 TS) was a much, much better offensive player than Tim Duncan (0.551)!!!!!

      OMG – who would have imagined?

    62. Bruno Almeida

      people think it’s funny that posters here think Chandler is great… I think it’s funny that some of the most adamant Knicks fans (the ones who will argue that someone not behind this team is not a Knicks fan) will make whatever argument it takes to say that one of the absolute greatest players this team has had in 20 years is actually shit.

    63. Brian Cronin

      I don’t think many people were ever down on Chandler, per se. Just not as up on him as they perhaps should have been. Dude did make the All Star team and win Defensive Player of the Year while here, ya know? So I think most people get that he was good. Like most of the arguments here, it was more a question of relative worth.

    64. Philmelo

      He has a very good DRtg despite being on a terrible defensive team – per NBA.com he has the 10th best DRtg of any center in the league (minimum 40 games played). His rim protection stats are solid on Sportvu tracking. His DRPM is +1.39 which is better than a host of “good defensive centers” such as Marc Gasol, Noah, Biyombo, and Robin Lopez, and which falls in the above-average category. He’s a very good defensive rebounder (12th among all centers), an underrated/underestimated part of playing defense.

      Wow, even I didn’t realize that Willy was this defensively elite. Good to know!

    65. Bruno Almeida

      theo is like one of those 15 year old dudes that discovers on the internet that the nazi party was called “National Socialism”, then starts screaming that socialism = nazism.

    66. SJK

      Can someone who is in charge of these sorts of things please ban Theo? I’m sorry but the board is completely unreadable today. I think I speak for most of us when I say I come here for intelligent basketball discussion, not to read the same two sentences over and over and over again.

      I went and counted, 7 of the 22 posts b/w post #57 and #79 are Theo comparing a generational offensive player to DeAndre Jordan or Tyson Chandler. It’s gotta stop.

    67. Brian Cronin

      It’s not really that hard to just skip over his posts, though, no? Just see his name and go to the next comment.

    68. DRed

      Buddy, which stats should we use? Nobody thinks TS% is the only measure of offensive value. Use logic and facts, don’t sputter at straw mwn

    69. Theo

      Theo what stats should we use to help determine how good a player is?

      1. The conversation is about Chandler being a better offensive player than Melo because he has a better TS.

      2. If you want to determine how good a player is, you have to do a detailed study of his stats under different statistical models (no cherry-picking to fit a particular agenda), combine that with the eye test (because there are things numbers can’t capture) and then compare your results with players in more or less similar roles. Then you have an accurate (not perfect) picture.

      The above assumes the observer has ample experience watching basketball, is free of bias and shows interest in the truth.

    70. SJK

      @81, it may not be that difficult to skim over his posts individually, but you can’t deny that the entire conversation this morning has revolved around his posts.

    71. Bruno Almeida

      the conversation wasn’t that.

      and free of bias…
      hahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaahhahahahahahahahahahaha

      ok, I’m done, I’ll follow Brian’s advice.

    72. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      I think most of the defensive stats overrate Willy since most of those are just rough guides/not super definitive while offensive advanced stats are much more substantial but I’m fairly sure he’s a break even or plus defender at his position. Which is crazy, because he was or allegedly was a horrible defender at Sevilla.

    73. kevin5318

      It’s certainly fair to note, though, that the players more similar to Melo are a lot more famous than the guys similar to Chandler.

      Thats sort of what I’m getting at. If there was say a 2012-13 player draft pool where all players were free agents, I don’t think even the Spurs, Rockets, Warriors or Celtics front offices would take a guy like Chandler before Melo. I could be wrong though.

    74. DRed

      1. No it’s not. That’s your straw man

      2. How good was Tyson compared to Melo. Let’s see your analysis

    75. Bruno Almeida

      I agree Kevin, they were much closer at the time, it would depend a lot on fit and the overall philosophy a team likes to follow.

      but well, unless you are the poster who shall not be named, it’s possible to realize that most front offices are mostly not good at their jobs.

    76. Brian Cronin

      @81, it may not be that difficult to skim over his posts individually, but you can’t deny that the entire conversation this morning has revolved around his posts.

      I wouldn’t say the entire conversation, but yes, there’s a decent chunk where people got caught up in stuff they would probably be best off ignoring. A good rule of thumb I always try to use is “If people say dumb things and no one challenges them, they don’t ‘win’. They’re just people saying dumb things without people responding to them.” It’s when people think that they need to argue a point that they themselves think is dumb, that discussions go down the drain. The best part about this rule is that it is specific to you. It’s up to you if you think a post is too dumb to respond to.

    77. Theo

      @88 – you need to read the thread once more to understand the piints being made by all posters. Do your home work.

    78. Brian Cronin

      Thats sort of what I’m getting at. If there was say a 2012-13 player draft pool where all players were free agents, I don’t think even the Spurs, Rockets, Warriors or Celtics front offices would take a guy like Chandler before Melo. I could be wrong though.

      Oh sure, that’s why I mentioned that part, as I was conceding that part of your point, that while players like Chandler are rarer than players like Melo, it’s actually harder to get players like Melo.

    79. Bruno Almeida

      and I’m taking the fall for this theo-driven discussion, I’m on vacations and thought, hey, why not try to reason a little bit?

      but if one person believes he’s so much more intelligent and has no need to proof anything because all he wants is to win the flame wars, it’s no worth it.

      at least I take the fall, unlike Phil Jackson!

    80. Theo

      The best part about this rule is that it is specific to you. It’s up to you if you think a post is too dumb to respond to.

      Well said. There are a few people here that would not get an answer from me no matter what (they try every day, though…lol). I just ignore them.

    81. Philmelo

      Tale of Two Rookies

      Rookie A (22 years old) WS/48 .125, ORtg 112, DRtg 108
      Rookie B (24 years old) WS/48 .121, ORtg 112, DRtg 108

      Who are they?

    82. Ambrosenyk

      Tyson has Melo beat on several advanced metrics, which don’t even accurately assess the difference in defensive value between the two. Several posters pointed that out along the way, but Theo is only focusing on TS I guess.

      I’ve defended Theo’s posts on more than one occasion, but I fail to see why he can’t give reasons to back up his thoughts. Mocking posters that are engaging in empirical analysis is insulting to those taking time out of their day to engage you in intelligent discussion.

    83. geo

      howdy theo…not sure how old or young you are -but, you sounding mighty wise today…

      it was good to start the day off reading some of your thoughts…point well taken about missing some of the long time regular posters on the site…

      i’m not sure though if that’s due to the content and tone of the posts over the last couple of months – or, because our team rarely gives consistent effort or plays enjoyable to view basketball…i’ll take your word though that some of the reasons you gave – might just be the cause…

      i think though that the majority of folks here are tending to see the glass as half empty though…

      shoot – we’re getting tons of press and we’re getting on national tv a bunch lately…admittedly at times that can be a mixed bag of poop – and well, more poop…

      plus – if you really wanna get a smile from this season – just remember, we are not the nets…seriously, could you imagine going through the kind of year their going through, and not even getting your pick…worse yet, it’s not as if the situation gets immediately brighter for them next year either…

      go knicks!?!?!?

    84. Kevin Udwary

      I may be late to the party, but I do hate to see people blasphemy Cole. Here was the thinking at the time, by us Cole champions: Here’s a guy who has only received limited play time through his short career, but in that time he has produced at a pretty damn good level. It wasn’t a cherry-picking of stats, it was simply looking at his per36 numbers, rebounding % and TS%. Here was his per36 line from his first year with the Knicks: 10.0pts/14.1reb/3.3BLK and just 2.0TOV, with a 0.620TS%. The problem was that he only played 330 minutes that season, and less than 1000 all his previous seasons combined.

      When someone produces very well in limited minutes, should we say “Oh, it’s just limited minutes, he must suck because he’s not getting playing time.” or yell “PLAY THE FUCKING GUY SOME REAL MINUTES!”. Unfortunately for Cole, he has horrible stamina andwas near a heart attack when he acctually started to get some more playing time in his 2nd season due to injury. Even then, he was the team’s best rebounder and a solid rim protector. Even today he is still a very solid backup. He’s just very limited in the minutes he can play before he collapses. I do not think my, and other Cole defenders, thinking was flawed at the time. If a guy is playing well in limited minutes, give him more minutes. That is such a basic thing, that I have a hard time understanding why anyone would disagree with it.

      If there is anyone on this team comparable to Cole, it would be O’Quinn. A veteran guy who produces in limited minutes, but can’t find a coach willing to give him real playing time. Then he finally does get consistent minutes and still produces at a reasonable level. The biggest difference with Willie is that he’s still a kid. He is likely to have room to grow, unlike 5 year veterans like O’Quinn and Cole.

    85. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      @95

      Willy and Bertans? I can’t find any rookie with the 2nd one’s numbers. Is he from a different year?

    86. Ambrosenyk

      The only difference between Marc and Billy (aside from defensively) that jumps out to me is free throw rate. Marc’s is extremely high, damn. Nevertheless, I’m not sure how a player improves that or even how much a player improves upon that initial number during developmental years.

    87. Bruno Almeida

      the comparison to Marc is nice, because he’s another guy that was called slow and fat and would never amount to nothing in the league.

    88. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      I think Willy stands to improve his FTR as he matures and polishes his offensive game even further. He plays a very physical post game that’s already enabled him to get fouls against weaker defenders, and he’s clever enough to know when to go at a guy. He may never get to Marc’s ftr, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to tentatively project improvement in that department.

      If we get a player even a third as a productive as Marc Gasol with the 35th pick that’s a huge win right then and there.

    89. Philmelo

      Two caveats:

      1. Marc played waaay more minutes than Willy will this season.
      2. But Willy is 2 years younger than Marc.

      Only physical difference between the two I can see is that Willy is 2 inches shorter with a shorter wingspan. It probably limits his upside.

    90. Brian Cronin

      If we get a player even a third as a productive as Marc Gasol with the 35th pick that’s a huge win right then and there.

      Oh sure. We should obviously hope for the absolute best from Willy, but also just be grateful for what the Knicks have already gotten from him so far. He’s been great. He doesn’t need to become an All-Star for him to be a big help for this team.

    91. Philmelo

      Next move for Willy is to keep improving on that 3 point shot. He can become even more offensively valuable to us if he does that.

    92. geo

      Here’s a different topic. Derrick Williams just scored 13 points on 5 for 7 shooting with 6 rebounds in 23 minutes in what I think was his first game for Cleveland. He was plus fifteen in a game that was won by eight points. Do we want him back? Did Miami make a mistake in letting him go?

      hey KnickfaninNJ…it’s weird sometimes watching “old” knick players when they play well for other clubs…generally though, you don’t get to see those players perform on a consistent basis…

      more to the point – i’m not so sure we have an organization in the knicks which really brings the best out of players…at times it feels as though we could have hakeem, mj, clyde, duncan and lebron out there and we would still find a way to fail…

      not really true – but, until we have a consistent coaching staff (at least a couple of years), some type of positive leadership from above…i think it will be really hard for any player to excel in our environment…hopefully we can shed some not great team basketball chemistry guys (melo and rose) and truly develop players out on the court and in practice…maybe even find some more players that’ll share the ball and play defense…

    93. Philmelo

      Oh, for fuck’s sake.

      Carmelo Anthony said again today that he hasn’t thought about his no-trade clause because management hasn’t discussed any possible trades with him.

      Jeff Hornacek says he and his players believe they can put together a winning streak and get back in the playoffs. He believes management has the same goal as they approach the trade deadline. “They haven’t come to me and said start playing all the young guys. So I think that’s their vision too.”

    94. Philmelo

      And here I stupidly assumed Phil was going to be the adult in the room who told everyone that this team bites and should pack it up.

    95. kevin5318

      Would you rather pair KP up with Willy or Juan if you had the choice? Willy covers up his rebounding while Juan lets him play his ideal position long term.

    96. the don nelson era

      Seeing how much the team improved in 2014-15 when they got rid of the toxic vets, maybe keeping this dogshit core is best for the tank. In any event, I do hope they understand KOQ should be traded this season.

      But the Knicksiest outcome is to stand pat/add someone, then make a run to the 9th seed, so I can’t wait to see how that unfolds.

    97. Philmelo

      @113

      Would you rather pair KP up with Willy or Juan if you had the choice? Willy covers up his rebounding while Juan lets him play his ideal position long term.

      With Juan. He and KP have a brotherly connection that will become greater than the sum of its parts. As you note, they trust one another and have evolved complimentary games. The outside shooter/shot blocker and the post up guy/rebounder combo they present rounds out their individual weaknesses.

      I also don’t have a problem with Willy stopping KP from playing center yet until KP develops a postup game and because I think Willy will be able to play some 4 in the future if he improves his jumper.

      I look at a guy like Marc Gasol who is still adding tricks to his bag at age 32 and I feel Willy can evolve as a 3 point shooter. Gasol is taking 3-4 three pointers a game now for the first time in his career and nailing them at a 39 percent clip. That added wrinkle to his game has given him his most offensively efficient season in years.

    98. Bruno Almeida

      I think I’d rather have Juan because I think he would allow the Knicks to play an optimal setup that leads to KP being closer to the basket in general, but at the same time the defense might be rough… so I’m fine with Willy.

      having both would be insane tho.

    99. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Willy starting again tonight in place of Noah.

      Also re: trade deadline stuff–even if Melo had talked with management abt trades he wouldn’t have said so publicly for various reasons both PR related and negotiation related. Simultaneously, I’m pretty sure Phil is keeping a close eye on this OKC game and will pursue tankish trades aggressively if we get blown out.

      Better hope Russ quadruple doubles us because otherwise I think our team is trying to make the playoffs.

    100. 2FOR18

      “Jeff Hornacek says he and his players believe they can put together a winning streak and get back in the playoffs. He believes management has the same goal as they approach the trade deadline. “They haven’t come to me and said start playing all the young guys. So I think that’s their vision too.”

      This is exactly what I was afraid of after the win over SA.

    101. geo

      i have a question for all you smart folks…at times this season i’ve really enjoyed and appreciated kuz’s game…he looks like a potential rotation guy to me…scoring wise i’m confident he can put in double figures each night…

      lately it seems he’s gassing out and having trouble performing well on the court – but, i’m just curious to know how successful a rookie season (despite his age) has he had statistics wise, could he potentially be a starting – and, stat wise – where does he really need to improve for next year…

      G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% 2P 2PA 2P% eFG%
      47 3 14.6 2.2 5.3 .420 0.8 2.6 .317 1.4 2.8 .515 .496

      FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
      0.7 0.9 .791 0.7 1.2 1.9 1.0 0.5 0.2 0.7 1.2 6.0

      ugh, sorry for the way his stats look…wasn’t expecting that to happen…this is why i don’t mess with the stat stuff much, whether coherent or not – at least i can get words to line up correctly on the page…

    102. thenoblefacehumper

      The line is OKC -7 tonight so Vegas thinks the tank rolls on. I’m less confident–OKC sans Kanter is a damn flawed team.

    103. Accidentank 2017

      Draft night makes the most sense for a trade with Cleveland and Phoenix. We can fleece them for the Miami 2018 and their 2017 pick after Love gets embarrassed in the playoffs and Phil decides to rebuild around KP and Hernangomez.

    104. Owen

      I think this pretty much sums up our shitty Sisyphean existence the past 17 years:

      Remarkably, New York has not had a top-three pick or advanced past the second round of the postseason since 2000. In fact, the Knicks have had only one top-five pick and won only one playoff series this century.

      +1

    105. Ambrosenyk

      @geo

      Kuz’s advanced metrics are less than stellar and when you factor in that he’s a 27 year old rookie, I wouldn’t count on much upward mobility. Numbers say he’s a below average player and a “shooter” with a rough .524 TS%. All in all, I’m not impressed. Which sucks, because he seems like a good kid.

    106. d-mar

      The Knicks will suck for the rest of my life.

      #factorial

      How old are you? Because if you’re under 25 I would say there’s a 10% chance you’re wrong.

    107. geo

      Kuz’s advanced metrics are less than stellar and when you factor in that he’s a 27 year old rookie, I wouldn’t count on much upward mobility. Numbers say he’s a below average player and a “shooter” with a rough .524 TS%. All in all, I’m not impressed. Which sucks, because he seems like a good kid.

      …thanks ambrosenyk…

      and, he’s got a super hot chick too – not sure what’s that has to do with basketball – but, it is a fact…

      is there any way to glean whether he was a plus or minus on defense – i’m not so sure what a Drtg of 113 really means…he seems active on both ends of the court, but, he might just be running around a lot kuz he’s not sure where he should be…

    108. yellowboy90

      Looks like WIlly will be joining KP in the Rising Stars game. Maybe next year Juan and Willy will play together.

    109. Ambrosenyk

      @130 I’m not the biggest fan of looking too much into Ortg/ Drtg because of how susceptible they are to other variables. Sure you can say that about several advanced metrics, which is why the big picture is what counts. Like I said, Kuz’s big picture outlook isn’t particularly promising or irreplaceable.

    110. Bruno Almeida

      @130

      drtg is basically, the highest it is, the worse it is… I like Kuz, but honestly he’s not a very valuable player.

    111. Ingmarrr

      Please Knicks do the right thing just this one time and trade Melo for anything other than long term contracts. Please. We’re begging you.

    112. Bruno Almeida

      Kuz reminds me a bit of Baker in this sense: we, as Knicks fans, have endured the years of Francis, Curry, Z-Bo, Al Buckets, Big Snacks et. al., so as long as a player at least looks like he’s trying, we quickly overrate him, even if he’s objectively bad.

      I think Kuz is more polished and can be a useful player in stretches, but he’s a replacement level player pretty much.

    113. Jack Bauer

      They are not getting Fultz or Ball, so set that fantasy aside. I think trading for 26 year old Rubio and then drafting the best available player (Isaac, Momk, Ntilikina, etc..) is a nice achievable plan. which is why it will never happen because Knicks

    114. geo

      thanks ambrosenyk, thanks bruno…rooting for the knicks – whether it’s consciously done or not, your expectations do seem to lower considerably…

      that’s weird – courtney lee and lance thomas have two of the highest Drtg on the team (not weird to see they are joined by rose)…

    115. thenamestsam

      Along with what others have said I think Kuz has the thing that older rookies often have where most people have a tendency to sort of mentally sort him in with the “young guys” because he is a rookie after all and because of that he gets a lot of benefit of the doubt. But really, he’s 27 and has been playing professionally for a decade. Maybe he can improve a bit as he adapts to the speed of the NBA and playing with better players etc. but for the most part he’s basically the finished article and he’s struggling to get minutes on a bad team. I wouldn’t be shocked if he improved slightly and contributed off the bench next year but that’s pretty much the upside I think.

    116. Ambrosenyk

      Andre Drummond and Reggie Jackson are both, reportedly, on the trade market. Thoughts on both guys? I always assumed Drummond to be good, but it actually seems like he’s been regressing as of late. And for a guy with his play style, that TS% is quite bad.

      As for Reggie Jackson, he’s yet another player who thinks he’s good, but actually isn’t.

    117. kevin5318

      @KevinOConnorNBA

      “Love has had left knee trouble 3 consecutive seasons. And in 2013 had arthroscopic left knee surgery, in 2011 a left knee contusion. Scary.”

    118. DRed

      Whoever told Drummond he should do anything but dunk fucked up. The Celtics should give up the Brooklyn pick for Drummond

    119. ptmilo

      Drummond must be impossible to watch for Pistons fans. On offense, they go to him in the post, but he can’t use the only post game that would work for him because he doesn’t want to / shouldn’t want to shoot free throws. And he also doesn’t pass so he takes bad shots instead. 42% of his shots this yera are from 3-10 feet and his TS on them is well below 40%. He partially makes up for this because he’s the beastiest beast in the entire league, but only partially.

      But on defense, where he looks kinda like the perfect NBA defender, he’s been genuinely horrific. The Pistons are 10 points per possession worse with him on the floor this year. He takes more plays off than any young, lean center I’ve ever seen.

      Boston must be tempted. I mean, if you could never ever post him and just run PNR with Thomas all day he would be just brutally effective. But you have to convince him to try on defense at least a little without getting post touches.

      edit: scooped but i said beastiest

    120. geo

      So, the Knicks are worth $3.3 billion?

      ugh, other than a little bad pub – there doesn’t seem to be any motivation from a ownership/management position to really make any significant changes…dolan made sure to point out how well phil has done from a financial standpoint during his interview with michael kay…

    121. bobneptune

      I could not agree more with Dray:

      http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/18692181/draymond-green-accuses-new-york-knicks-owner-james-dolan-using-slave-master-mentality

      Funny… I honestly thought this is one of the dumber things I have ever read (Green’s comment). How about this beauty from the Philosopher formerly known as Draymond:

      “You doing it for me, it’s all good,” Green said on his “Dray Day” podcast on Uninterrupted. “You doing it against me — you speaking out against my organization — it’s not good anymore? That’s a slave mentality. A slave master mentality. That’s ridiculous.

      No shit Sherlock…. a man paid you millions of dollars a year, you publicly talk trash about him, walk into his building and heckle him publicly and he gets pissed and he treated you like a slave?

      There are millions of actual slaves rolling over in their graves praying to God they were treated like Dolan treated Oakley.

      But that is what you get when you give someone the self control to kick someone in the nuts and cost your team the title last year a platform…. you get uninformed opinion at best and abject stupidity at worst. Just a God awful analogy.

      Here’s a pro tip for Mr Green and Mr Oakley… rich guys don’t tolerate criticism well. Imagine that! They don’t have to listen to it from anyone as long as their board of directors are behind them. And I imagine on Wall Street MSG is likely thought of as a very profitable business.

      I guess Marv Albert must be black , too because Dolan kicked him to the curb the minute he had enough of Marv criticizing the Knicks on the air.

    122. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      @146 I saw Oak strike one man in the face and push another rather violently. I didn’t see Dolan hit a single soul.

    123. geo

      that was good bob…when i saw green’s comments today – i didn’t really see any correlation to race or “slave master” mentality at all…i wasn’t 100% sure though if it was just me not “getting it”…

      i can’t imagine msg scheduling a press conference any time soon to apologize to oak either…we’ll see though…

      thank goodness oak didn’t just start swinging…

    124. Cock Jowles, #1 Pythag. Wins Denialist

      No shit Sherlock…. a man paid you millions of dollars a year, you publicly talk trash about him, walk into his building and heckle him publicly and he gets pissed and he treated you like a slave?

      There are millions of actual slaves rolling over in their graves praying to God they were treated like Dolan treated Oakley.

      I almost responded to you but I don’t think I’m dumb enough to do that

    125. MSA

      I’m a little late on the topic, but do you know who is the best Knicks by RBD% and BLK% like ever.

      I will give you a hint. Some people are comparing him to Willy.

    126. d-mar

      If you want to be entertained, put the Cavs-Pacers game on ESPN and listen to Dick Vitale and Bill Walton jabber and bloviate over each other. Pure comedy.

    127. SJK

      @153, I literally had to turn that game off because Dick Vitale is so unbearable. Walton I don’t mind, but my god Vitale is terrible.

    128. Philmelo

      I will give you a hint. Some people are comparing him to Willy.

      Only one person is comparing him to Willy.

    129. geo

      i think vitale is pretty amazing…didn’t think it was even humanly possible to be able to breathe while never ceasing to speak…

    130. GoldClub

      Sure it’s hyperbole, but there is something about sending his security thugs to harass Oak because Oak isn’t willing to kiss the ring that makes Dray’s comments ring true.

    131. bidiong

      Hate to bring the Melo – Chandler – LeBron true shooting fiasco back up from earlier in the thread, but the TS% needs to be tied to usage to more adequately see who is the overall better offensive player. Out of these three, LeBron of course.

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