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Tuesday, July 25, 2017

Knicks Morning News (2017.02.13)

  • [NYTimes] Latrell Sprewell Visits. Minds Boggle. Knicks Win.
    (Monday, February 13, 2017 1:34:17 AM)

    The Knicks beat the Spurs, 94-90, but they created more double takes at Madison Square Garden off the court as the former star Latrell Sprewell and other ex-Knicks sat with the owner, James L. Dolan.

  • [NYTimes] Knicks 94, Spurs 90: Knicks End Four-Game Skid With Uplifting Win Over Spurs
    (Monday, February 13, 2017 3:23:20 AM)

    After dropping four straight, all at home, and battling through more off-court tumult, the Knicks stepped up their defense in an encouraging victory over formidable San Antonio.

  • [NY Newsday] Latrell Sprewell gets royal treatment at Garden in first visit since ’04
    (Sunday, February 12, 2017 10:26:04 PM)

    Charles Oakley is out, but Latrell Sprewell is back in.

  • [NY Newsday] Carmelo Anthony scores 25 to lead Knicks past Spurs, 94-90
    (Sunday, February 12, 2017 10:16:29 PM)

    If this was Carmelo Anthony’s final home game as a Knick, he can say he led his team to its best win of the season.

  • [NY Newsday] Gregg Popovich likes Spurs’ environment free of drama
    (Sunday, February 12, 2017 9:37:54 PM)

    In the previous 19 seasons, Gregg Popovich’s San Antonio Spurs won five NBA championships and had a .710 winning percentage — an average of 58 wins in an 82-game season. And even after their 94-90 loss to the Knicks at the Garden on Sunday, the Spurs are exceeding that. They’re on pace to win 62 games.

  • [NYPost] The Willy Hernangomez coming-out party is on — for how long?
    (Sunday, February 12, 2017 5:20:24 PM)

    Jeff Hornacek still is talking about starting Joakim Noah when he is healthy — likely after the All-Star break. But that could change if Willy Hernangomez continues to spark wins as a starter. Hernangomez made his first start as a center, paired with Kristaps Porzingis, and the Knicks shut down the Spurs, 94-90 in a…

  • [NYPost] Carmelo can exhale — and weigh a late All-Star Game choice
    (Sunday, February 12, 2017 4:51:12 PM)

    It was, Carmelo Anthony said a few nights back, as if a cloud resided over the Knicks who seemed to be the living embodiment of Murphy’s Law, even more so. If something could go wrong, not only did it go wrong but it usually ignited a five-alarm fire with it. So on Sunday, the cloud…

  • [NYPost] How can the rotten Knicks still produce a day like this?
    (Sunday, February 12, 2017 3:11:27 PM)

    The parade was endless, and after a while more than a little comical. Latrell Sprewell, who once upon a time dunked a basketball in a Minnesota Timberwolves uniform, landed, sought out the owner of the Knicks and offered this greeting — “BLEEEEEEEEP YOOOOOU!!!!!” — was introduced, lauded, cheered. Larry Johnson was there, and Gerald Wilkins,…

  • [NYPost] A strange old-timers’ day ends with Knicks-Spurs stunner
    (Sunday, February 12, 2017 1:08:17 PM)

    There were no Charles Oakley chants and one giant Knicks victory over a Western Conference power. Who would have thought that entering Sunday’s nationally televised matinee? With Carmelo Anthony scoring seven points in the final 2:46, the Knicks averted arguably their worst homestand in history when they stunned the Spurs 94-90 at the Garden. Anthony…

  • [NYPost] Dolan trots out Latrell Sprewell and many ex-Knicks in Oakley cover
    (Sunday, February 12, 2017 11:48:46 AM)

    Knicks owner James Dolan should invite Latrell Sprewell to every game. In an attempt to show his strong relationships with Knicks alumni in the wake of the Charles Oakley ban, a desperate Dolan sat between the mercurial Sprewell — with whom he formerly feuded — and Bernard King during Sunday’s 94-90 matinee stunner over the…

  • [NYPost] Charles Oakley treatment was ‘Eric Garner without the chokehold’
    (Sunday, February 12, 2017 10:12:41 AM)

    Charging that the treatment of Charles Oakley was “Eric Garner without the chokehold,” Brooklyn Borough president Eric Adams said he will meet Monday with Knicks owner James Dolan and Garden officials over the incident that resulted in the Knicks legend being banned from the arena. “This is a blemish, not only on the Knicks, Madison…

  • [NYDN] Carmelo Anthony passes Barkley in points, plans All-Star rest
    (Sunday, February 12, 2017 7:39:23 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony scored 21 of his 25 points in the second half, passing Charles Barkley for 25th on the league’s all-time scoring list.

  • [NYDN] Knicks snap four-game losing streak with 94-90 win over Spurs
    (Sunday, February 12, 2017 7:37:59 PM)

    The Knicks had one of their best defensive performances of the year Sunday at the Garden in a 94-90 win over the Spurs.

  • [NYDN] Latrell Sprewell’s suspect MSG reunion just another Dolan PR ploy
    (Sunday, February 12, 2017 7:36:24 PM)

    James Dolan once had to reprimand Madison Square Garden security for not protecting him from Latrell Sprewell. Do you sense a pattern here?

  • [NYDN] Eric Adams: Oakley bust like ‘Eric Garner without the chokehold’
    (Sunday, February 12, 2017 5:40:00 PM)

    Charles Oakley’s ejection by MSG security was like “Eric Garner without the chokehold,” Brooklyn Borough President Eric Adams said.

  • [NYDN] Spike Lee explains why he’s wearing Charles Oakley jersey
    (Sunday, February 12, 2017 12:42:15 PM)

    Spike Lee was in the Garden hallway where Charles Oakley was arrested last week, and said there were tears in his eyes.

  • [NYDN] Latrell Sprewell sits next to James Dolan at Knicks game
    (Sunday, February 12, 2017 11:06:21 AM)

    James Dolan banned one beloved Knick and brought back another.

  • [ESPN] Monday’s Knicks News: Hernangomez shines in win over Spurs
    (Monday, February 13, 2017 4:50:06 AM)

    Monday’s Knicks News: Hernangomez shines in win over Spurs

  • [ESPN] Knicks find relief in their biggest win of the season
    (Monday, February 13, 2017 12:45:28 AM)

    Knicks find relief in their biggest win of the season

  • [ESPN] Spike Lee wears Oakley jersey, questions Dolan
    (Sunday, February 12, 2017 6:22:34 PM)

    Spike Lee wears Oakley jersey, questions Dolan

  • [SNY Knicks] Anthony, Rose lead Knicks to home victory over Spurs
    (Sunday, February 12, 2017 6:49:49 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony scored 25 points and Kristaps Porzingis had 16 points and seven rebounds as the New York Knicks beat the San Antonio Spurs, 94-90, on Sunday at Madison Square Garden.

  • [SNY Knicks] Anthony passes Barkley on NBA’s all-time scoring list
    (Sunday, February 12, 2017 5:27:46 PM)

    New York Knicks forward Carmelo Anthony passed Hall of Famer Charles Barkley on the NBA’s all-time scoring list in Sunday’s game against the San Antonio Spurs.

  • [SNY Knicks] Ex-Knick Sprewell returns to MSG, two days after Oakley’s ban
    (Sunday, February 12, 2017 5:10:37 PM)

    Former Knicks star Latrell Sprewell has returned to Madison Square Garden for the first time in 13 years, just two days after Charles Oakley was banned from the building.

  • [SNY Knicks] Hornacek led three-hour practice on Saturday
    (Sunday, February 12, 2017 10:35:41 AM)

    Another disappointing loss on Friday, which Knicks head coach Jeff Hornacek said the team “should be embarrassed” about, led to a practice that ran three hours on Saturday.

  • 194 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.02.13)

    1. Frank

      You know, I try not to talk politics here, but this Brooklyn borough president is a total joke, equating the Oakley thing with Eric Garner. It’s just ridiculous.

      Re: yesterday’s weirdness –

      1) obviously wins are not good for us at this point, but even knowing that for sure, I was still pulling so hard for the win. What are we supposed to expect the players and coaches to do?

      2) say what you will about Phil (and I have!!), since the Rosen article came out, Melo’s been pretty freaking good, at least on the offensive end — per 36 26.4, 6.5, 3.1, TS 56.6, eFG 53.2. His D has been up and down (at best) but offensively he’s been about as good as you realistically could hope for.

      3) Dolan trotting out all the old Knicks was pretty embarrassing, but Boomer made some good points this morning – mainly that Dolan does a bunch of great stuff behind the scenes (Garden of Dreams, supporting a lot of Knicks alumni that had nowhere else to go) and that the whole thing is not as straightforward as Knicks fans of the 1990s would like to believe. I know for a fact he also basically bankrolls (with zero fanfare) the operations of the biggest pancreatic cancer charity in the country so that 100% of every donation actually goes to research as opposed to administration.

      I find Dolan to mostly be as bad as we all think he is, but I highly doubt that Oak was blameless in all of this. Seems most likely that it was a bad situation from the start that just snowballed, and that Dolan actually thinks he did the right thing. Or maybe he just has a warped vindictive mind. I don’t know. But the fact that all those old Knicks (many of whom played with Oak and have no direct employment with the Knicks) came out and sat with Dolan just a few days after the whole thing went down — to me that feels like a silent rebuke of Oakley.

      re: the game (afterthought!) I didn’t get to watch most of it, but holding any team to 36% shooting is remarkable.

    2. wetbandit

      1. For some reason only the galaxy understands, we play the Spurs well.

      2. It is not up to the players to tank, nor the coaches, their job is to win games. Coaches may start to “value growth of the young players” at some point, but its all up to-

      3. The GM. It is up to him to start the tank process. If we give up Melo, Lee, and KOQ for youth n’ picks, we may lose a lot more games. As of right now, our core of Rose/Jennings/Lee/Melo/KP/Willy are not bad enough to lose every game. We’ll win a few.

      4. I just hope we don’t start a winning streak. Playing the Cavs and OKC on the road will probably remedy that before the deadline, and then we have winnable games vs. the Magic and 76ers along with the warriors. We can lose a ton of games here. Only three games behind the fourth worst team.

    3. Farfa

      @2

      1) This time was pure dumb luck (and a great defensive effort from KP, but they missed sooooo many open shots – see the one Danny Green attempted with around 13 seconds left)

      2) Agreed. I would argue Derrick Rose has taken tanking on himself, but that’s just because he has a poor feel for the game if not properly motivated

      3) I really don’t know what to think about Phil. I know Ras is utterly convinced that he wants to tank, but I’m not sure. At all. We’ll see

      4) I think we’ll win some spot games here and there and in the end the most likely outcome is that, after we deal KOQ to someone for filler and a 1st, we end up with the 12th worst record.

    4. 2FOR18

      @1. Wade equated it with BLM in his “#staywoke” tweet.

      Also, I’m sure Dolan does some good things behind the scenes, just like Steinbrenner did even in his darkest, nixonian days, but what does it say about the culture of his team that no one except non knicks players stood up for oak? As a fan of the team, I only care about how the owner affects the basketball sidea of things, and his transgressions there are too plentiful and painful to list. He’s a complete and utter disgrace and failure wrt the Knicks.

    5. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      On that note, Bondy retweeted what he says is the longest video he’s seen of the Oakley confrontation. There’s echoes there of how black people are treated by primarily white authorities. Oakley clearly didn’t initiate the aggressiveness and has his hands up the majority of the time.

      Here’s the video: https://twitter.com/sbondynydn/status/830966426748014592

      It doesn’t stretch the imagination to think that a white person would’ve been treated much differently than Oakley was.

    6. 2FOR18

      Regarding yesterday’s game of, to quote one poster, “winning basketball”, here are some tidbits:

      – SA missed 58 shots!(the knicks only took 68), yet the knicks only got 39 defensive rebounds.

      – the knicks had 20 turnovers and 18 assists!

      – the spurs had 21! Offensive rebounds

      – the 2 superstars on the knicks, who combined for 75 minutes and 37 shots, who touch the ball on every possession, totalled 4 assists and 7 turnovers!

      – the spurs shot 20% from 3; the knicks shot 64%!

      Now I know all fans can get delusional, but to me, winning basketball is something that, if sustained, would produce wins in a consistent basis.
      But yesterday’s knicks play, if repeated another 81 times, would likely result in a 10 win season.

      Now there’s nothing wrong with getting a lucky win; every team gets their share of them, as well as unlucky losses. But let’s acknowledge what happened, not turn it into a reason not to shop half the team.

    7. Frank

      I saw the video and didn’t think it was that bad. He was the one who actually turned violent. It looked like he fell on his own/tripped (no one pushed him, and even they did – which they didn’t – it would take some kind of shove to knock over Charles Oakley who is about 2x the size of anyone surrounding him). Then he was the one who put his finger right in the guy’s eye, then started hitting hands away, shoving etc. Honestly it seemed like all the security guys were trying to defuse the situation. And there was also a black security guard there.

      I think it really does the BLM movement (which I am in support of) a disservice when conflating this kind of situation with what happens on the streets. Anytime you see anyone confronted by security in an arena or stadium there are a bunch of security guys around. It’s not because he’s black.

    8. d-mar

      @6 Please stop with the “Spurs played so, so terribly, it had nothing to do with the Knicks” argument. If the Spurs play well, they beat every team in the NBA not named the Warriors or maybe the Cavs.

      This wasn’t some game changing, season rescuing performance, but give the Knicks a little credit. They shot well from downtown and the Spurs didn’t, that’s usually one of the main factors in one team winning and one team losing.

    9. Frank O.

      Anyone else feel as though Spreewell was a bit like a scab crossing a picket line?
      I know Spree wanted to be back in the fold again, but I wish he had the self-awareness to realize how badly he was used.
      Sure, Dolan is most at fault; I’m just saying Spree was a disappointment.
      I hope he’s still feeding his family well.

      As for the Knicks, this game showed what might have been if these guys actually had tried on defense.
      Courtney Lee has greatly improved his game.
      But really, everyone talks about Rose, Melo and KP, but I actually think it’s far more important that Willy and Lee are playing much better basketball. Whether tanking is a good idea or not, it was a great win and it didn’t feel like a fluke.

    10. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Willy and KOQ have actually been far and away the best players on the team, the former since he started getting more minutes and the latter since the beginning of the season (ignoring KP’s torrid start.)

    11. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      There are 3 or 4 players worth tanking for. Fultz, Ball, Jackson and maybe Isaac. We’re not likely to get any of them even if we intentionally tank. Picks 5 through 12 or 13 all seem to be fairly equivalent in value and risk.

    12. MSA

      There are 3 or 4 players worth tanking for. Fultz, Ball, Jackson and maybe Isaac. We’re not likely to get any of them even if we intentionally tank. Picks 5 through 12 or 13 all seem to be fairly equivalent in value and risk.

      Except that the 5th worst record give you a 25% chance to get a top 3 pick while the 13th less than 3%.

      It’s not really rocket science here. Lose a lot of games and improve your odds.

    13. Totes McGoats

      Dolan should do two things immediately:

      1. Publicly demand that the team, Phil most importantly, zip it and do their jobs. When I say “zip it”, I mean stop the sniping and get to work. I know we want to see Melo traded so the team can rebuild around KP, but enough’s enough. Can you imagine the ridiculous amount of extra unnecessary stress Melo’s under all because Phil is high schoolin it? It’s a bit much..

      2. Issue a public apology to the fans and Oak. Inviting Spree to sit with you right after the Oak sitchew was poorly timed- even if it was already planned. I mean- I love Spree and seeing his appreciation and love for the franchise and it’s fans made me smile. But it just came off as a blatantly sucker shit by Dolan due to the timing of it.

      Speaking of Spree..he gained a few pounds, but he still looked young enough to play didn’t he? His spirit is definitely one of the things this team is missing. I don’t think people realized what he gave to the team in addition to 19 points a night. He was clearly the best player on the team, but he sacrificed alot to make the team work. He played out of position every night, played tough defense on whomever was the best opposing perimeter player, he shared the ball and the spotlight when he could’ve EASILY scored 30 a game, and he clearly left it all on the floor Allen Iverson style. I completely understand why he was pissed when he got traded to the Wolves- shit I was too lol

    14. Totes McGoats

      3) Dolan trotting out all the old Knicks was pretty embarrassing, but Boomer made some good points this morning – mainly that Dolan does a bunch of great stuff behind the scenes (Garden of Dreams, supporting a lot of Knicks alumni that had nowhere else to go) and that the whole thing is not as straightforward as Knicks fans of the 1990s would like to believe. I know for a fact he also basically bankrolls (with zero fanfare) the operations of the biggest pancreatic cancer charity in the country so that 100% of every donation actually goes to research as opposed to administration.

      I find Dolan to mostly be as bad as we all think he is, but I highly doubt that Oak was blameless in all of this. Seems most likely that it was a bad situation from the start that just snowballed, and that Dolan actually thinks he did the right thing. Or maybe he just has a warped vindictive mind. I don’t know. But the fact that all those old Knicks (many of whom played with Oak and have no direct employment with the Knicks) came out and sat with Dolan just a few days after the whole thing went down — to me that feels like a silent rebuke of Oakley.

      To kinda piggyback off of that-
      We all know the team hasn’t been very good since Dolan has had it. We all know he’s been a bit idiotic more times than not. But he will spend the money to make the team better. That’s a good thing. He’s made poor decisions thus far, but if he will hire good basketball people and truly be seen and not heard- he won’t suck. And that’s his problem. His ego is as big as his wallet. One small change from him, and he’s golden.

    15. Nick C.

      If Dolan actually had worked to get his money, I might, might, begrudge him some credit for spending. But he didn’t so people really have to stop with that. Though Woody Johnson also is an heir and he goes cheapskate at the wrong times with the Jets, so there is that.

    16. Nick C.

      Oh and one more thing that peeved me, this whole family friendly arena line he trotted out was absurd. If he wanted to be family friendly how about lowering the ticket prices so that maybe a middle class family would be able to go.

      As for the basketball. Players are not going to try to lose to improve draft position. I do hope the team gets off the treadmill of scrapping for the 8th seed, but “Knicks.” It is good to see KP and Willy play well. Perhaps KP is past his injury.

    17. swiftandabundant

      I enjoyed the win. We will continue to win some games here and there so why not against a great team on national tv? They played great and it was a complete team effort.

      I honestly don’t care about the draft position that much. If we don’t make the playoffs I would prefer the pick be higher but I’m not gonna sweat over picking 10th vs. 8th. or 8th vs. 6th. Its pretty obvious that unless we’re the first pick there will be a contingent on this board who will complain about how we wasted this pick bc we didn’t tank the season. But the last time we had a pick we picked 4th and got Zinger. We could have lost those last two games and still not picked first and ended up with Okafor or Russell instead of Zinger. There are plenty of good players available in the top 15 if you draft well. To me its about not drafting a bust. Not every pick will be an all star but if you get a solid rotation player out of it that fills a need, then its a win. The draft is littered with picks later than the top 5 who did well and full of players in the top 5 who sucked. We haven’t been in no man’s land like many claim. We’ve literally not had draft picks at all for most of the last 6 years. And we have a first rounder and 2 second rounders no matter what. I guess the next 3 or 4 games will determine a lot.

    18. GoldClub

      @15 — I’ve seen it first hand. MSG security are total goons. The worst of the worst of aggressive, chip on the shoulder, officers/security. I’ve seen them behave this way with white and black folks alike so don’t think it is nessessarily racial, but it is so inappropriate how they behave it could easily be interpreted as racial. We all know that Dolan sends them to kick out people that he doesn’t like how they are cheering or signs they are holding and that has nothing to do with proscribed rules.

    19. TheOakmanCometh

      Here are the lottery odds for each place in the standings.

      http://www.lotterybucket.com/

      We are currently 9th after last night’s win. That gives us a 6% chance at a top 3 pick. If we fall to 4th by season’s end, we have a 38% chance at a top 3 pick (and of course can get no worse than the 7th pick in a worst-case scenario).

      I understand the sentiment of wanting your team to win. But honestly, 6 months from now, nobody is going to remember or care about a meaningless February win against the Spurs. What EVERYONE will care about is if we draw a top 3 pick in the lottery and get to look forward to watching a Fultz or Ball for the next decade. Rooting for losses in this lost season seems like a no-brainer.

    20. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      There’s one game left to be played before the trade deadline against OKC. Two things I’m hoping for: we get blown out, putting an exclamation point on the whole trade Melo and other players while we can situation. And that KOQ plays really well and OKC thinks about parting with a pick or with Cam Payne for some OQ deal.

      Make it happen, Russell

    21. Theo

      I don’t feel bad for Oakley or Dolan. Any other (not famous) person, of any color, would not get a single sympathetic sentence in this forum if the same thing happened to him/her. There is a lot of bias because Oakley is black and because he’s a famous Knick.

      When everything is said and done, nobody seems to know who initiated the incident or why it happened. We are all guessing here, so, the fair thing to do is to withhold judgement until more details surface.

    22. thenoblefacehumper

      We should be able to get at least as much for KOQ as Orlando does for Ibaka right? KOQ is signed for another year and is prooooooobably better.

    23. Theo

      Dolan is perceived as a terrible owner because he has failed so miserably at delivering a ring to NY.
      Blame the salary cap: without it, the Knicks would have bought a few rings and he would be seen in the same light Steinbrenner was. Fans would be much happier.

      Is he good or bad? Who knows…he’s just terrible at working within the limits imposed by the salary cap.

    24. djphan

      reub- you have to add in fox, smith and tatum…. fox and smith are the best pg’s to come out since john wall… and tatum isn’t far behind jackson…

    25. Theo

      We should be able to get at least as much for KOQ as Orlando does for Ibaka right?

      It all depends on how valuable other teams think KOQ is.

    26. TheOakmanCometh

      KOQ’s per-36 numbers are almost all superior to Mason Plumlee’s, who is about to get paid big bucks this offseason (as opposed to Kyle’s team-friendly deal). In theory we should be able to at least get what Portland got — a Nurkic-level talent and a mid/late 1st rounder. The problem is KOQ just doesn’t play enough, and I’m not sure how that will affect the perception of GMs.

    27. Bruno Almeida

      people didn’t sweat too about getting the 8th instead of the 7th pick in 2009…

      I know it’s been repeated ad infinitum here, but I still can’t really believe people won’t understand that if there’s a good player available in the 15th slot, he’s also available at the 8th slot, together with potential even greater prospects.

      the fact that 14 NBA franchises ignored Kawhi or Giannis can’t possibly make the 15th pick as valuable as the 8th.

      I do think O’Quinn should fetch at least a similar price as Ibaka but he won’t, because reputation is still a big deal for the almighty front offices that never made a mistake in player evaluation ever.

    28. iserp

      I know it’s been repeated ad infinitum here, but I still can’t really believe people won’t understand that if there’s a good player available in the 15th slot, he’s also available at the 8th slot, together with potential even greater prospects.

      Do you also realize that if there is a terrible player available at the 15th slot, it is also available at the 8th?

      You should average the expected value of draft picks and not say Ntilikina is going to be the next… The 2014 was supposedly stacked (beyond the overhyping of Wiggins), and now it looks quite average (to below average depending on how injuries will go).

    29. Frank O.

      I understand the idea behind tanking; but bad losses gnaw at me.
      Many of us recall the Ewing era fondly, but that era was ultimately a losing era. So many gut wrenching losses. Same goes for the Bernard King era.
      I think it’s why the feature piece on NBA Countdown yesterday on the Knicks so bothered me. It wasn’t a hit piece. It was simply the truth. MSG was the Mecca of boxing and the Mecca of college basketball, and for a brief period in the 1970s, it was home of one of the best basketball clubs ever.
      But it hasn’t been a Mecca for some time.

      I grow tired of the futility and the tyranny of tomorrow. I’d like to see them try hard now to win. I can back a team that plays hard now, win or lose.

    30. Bruno Almeida

      @31

      how is that relevant?

      if there’s, say, 7 overall very good players in the class and they are divided like, 5 in the top 8, 1 in the 15-18 range and one in the second round.

      yes, there will be terrible players available at both the 1st, 8th and 15th picks… but a top 8 pick will always be more valuable than a 15th no matter the draft, and it is even more obvious in a draft that looks to be stacked.

      for all we know this draft might produce 0 stars and only busts, but how is that an argument? working the probabilities is still the best way to go about the draft.

    31. Philmelo

      You know what gnaws at me? Fielding a team full of 30+ year old hasbeens and wash ups every fucking year. That’s what gnaws me. It would be nice if we could sacrifice maybe 7 wins this season so KP has a legitimate shot at playing next to another young stud during his prime who isn’t Willy.

    32. kevin5318

      @JSports_ent

      A name that I continue to be told teams are calling #Knicks about is KOQ. So far NY has yet to get an offer they like. Teams are interested.

      This guy has been pretty consistent going back to last season. Shouldn’t be surprising that teams are interested.

    33. Philmelo

      So far NY has yet to get an offer they like.

      Here’s an example of proof Brian wants to indicate Phil is committed to a rebuild.

      We should accept nothing less than a late first round choice, IMO.

    34. TheOakmanCometh

      That’s good to hear. KOQ, Jennings, and Holiday should be super easy to move because of their contracts. If we can’t use them to sweeten the pot for a Melo deal, we should absolutely move them.

    35. wetbandit

      – I think the counterargument to tanking (which I completely understand, but disagree with) is that if you try to lose and end up with a few early-first round picks in a row, you may end up with half-busts and a superstar or two, but the “culture” of losing and failing over and over again is detrimental to the team’s health, and may end up with the young good players leaving. Which would be horrible. The flip-side would be trying to win, and scouting/picking very well, and ending up with a good system that develops players well, with good trades/FA’s, and end up with a winning team and good culture that develops good players into great players.

      – The second counterargument would be that there are no incentives to most of the people in an organization to tank. Players don’t want to tank, they are built to compete. Coaches don’t want to tank, they have a win/loss record to establish. GM’s are beholden to some owners (like Dolan), and owners want to win to keep butts in seats. Fans may want to tank, and that’s it.

      – That said, ship O’Quinn for another pick, ship Melo for picksNyouth, ship Lee for the same, and tank away, because we ain’t Coutney Leeing our way to a championship.

    36. TheOakmanCometh

      What about Noah and Holiday to New Orleans for Asik and Galloway? The Pelicans get a center who can actually play — Asik is completely out of the rotation — and bring in Jrue’s brother as a way to make him re-sign. The Knicks go from Noah’s albatross contract ($18m for 3 more years) to Asik’s ($11m for 2 more years, then a $3m buyout).

      It would have the secondary effect of making New Orleans better now, so they pass us in the standings.

    37. wetbandit

      Also, I’m ok with keeping our 26/27 year olds like O’quinn/Holiday/Kuz unless the offer is really good. These guys are not making much money and are productive. I wouldn’t ship them out for anything other than first round picks. I mean, isn’t 27 still kinda young in some of these never-injured guys? Would it be that weird if Holiday stuck with us for 6 years and was productive all that time? His 3/D is pretty good. O’Quinn is also really, really good for his contract, and if the offer isn’t great, I dunno if I want to give him up.

    38. DRed

      It would be nice if we could sacrifice maybe 7 wins this season so KP has a legitimate shot at playing next to another young stud during his prime who isn’t Willy.

      The only way this is going to happen is if we tell Rose to go out there and take 18 3s a night, which he would never do since he’s going to be a FA. We cannot tank like that without players conspiring to throw games, which players won’t ever do, because it would cost them money.

    39. TheOakmanCometh

      @38

      Wetbandit, your point about creating a culture of losing may be valid. I don’t know if that carries over from season to season, but it’s possible. However, this other point is a false choice that so many of the anti-tankers erroneously cite:

      The flip-side would be trying to win, and scouting/picking very well, and ending up with a good system that develops players well, with good trades/FA’s, and end up with a winning team and good culture that develops good players into great players.

      Scouting well, developing players, making good trades, and signing good players has NOTHING to do with tanking. They are not mutually exclusive. Of course we should be scouting well and making good trades. We can do that just as well with the #4 pick as with the #14 pick. We don’t have to choose between scouting or tanking. We can do both.

    40. JK47

      Also, I’m ok with keeping our 26/27 year olds like O’quinn/Holiday/Kuz unless the offer is really good. These guys are not making much money and are productive.

      O’Quinn has one more year on his team-friendly contract after this one. Holiday’s contract is up after this season. Kuz is not very good, and his contract runs only through next season.

      That’s why none of those guys are valuable as long-term assets. By the time any hypothetically good Knicks team would ever come together, these guys will either be gone or they will getting paid market value.

    41. Philmelo

      The only way this is going to happen is if we tell Rose to go out there and take 18 3s a night, which he would never do since he’s going to be a FA. We cannot tank like that without players conspiring to throw games, which players won’t ever do, because it would cost them money.

      Untrue. It can happen if we trade what few useful pieces we have outside of KP and Willy. You get rid of KOQ, Lee and even Jennings it would mean more minutes for Noah/Plumlee, Baker, and Rose. Add Melo into that mix and you have more Kuz/Thomas.

    42. Philmelo

      but the “culture” of losing and failing over and over again is detrimental to the team’s health, and may end up with the young good players leaving.

      Explain to me how, exactly, this is any different than finishing another season with a 7-1o more wins and still a losing record?

    43. chrisk06811

      this is amazing:
      Latrell Sprewell, J.R. Rider, Earl Boykins, Brian Cook and Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf have signed on to play in Ice Cube’s Big3 league, which features ex-NBA players playing 3 on 3 and is set to kickoff this summer

    44. Philmelo

      Latrell Sprewell, J.R. Rider, Earl Boykins, Brian Cook and Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf

      What do each of those guys have in common? They are broke as hell. Sprewell should be ashamed selling what little soul he has left to Dolan to show up Oakley like that. Someone here said Sprewell looked like a scab. He’s worse. Your usual scab didn’t blow millions of dollars to become a sad desperation case.

    45. chrisk06811

      we actually could pull this off. Philly has 3 less wins than us but is gaining quickly. Dallas has 1 less, Minn and NO have 2 less. Dallas is better than us, Minn probably is too. Only the nets, Orlando, Phx and the Lakers are worse than us. and that’s debatable. It’s good how bad we suck.

      Although…..the other way to look at this…..we are 3 games out of the 7 seed, 11 more home games to go. We are undefeated at home when Spree shows up

    46. Philmelo

      we actually could pull this off. Philly has 3 less wins than us but is gaining quickly. Dallas has 1 less, Minn and NO have 2 less. Dallas is better than us, Minn probably is too. Only the nets, Orlando, Phx and the Lakers are worse than us. and that’s debatable. It’s good how bad we suck.

      I’ve been trying to say this for a while. A legitimate tank is doable if we commit. Phil needs to empty the bank if Melo’s not waiving his NTC.

    47. d-mar

      Lance Thomas on yesterday’s defensive adjustment:

      “A big thing for us, especially in pick-and-roll, is we have these downhill scorers coming off the screen,’’ Thomas said. “Our bigs are all the way back into the paint, so [opposing ball-handlers] have so much room to create. We want to bring the big man up and have [the guard] make a quicker decision as opposed to seeing all that real estate to make a play.”

      So it took Hornacek and Rambis 56 games to realize that you don’t sit your big men back and let every PG in the NBA run wild in the paint? Doesn’t exactly inspire confidence in our “brain trust”

    48. bobneptune

      Dolan should do two things immediately:

      1. Publicly demand that the team, Phil most importantly, zip it and do their jobs.

      I completely disagree!

      Dolan should only do one thing for sure: Stay the bleep out of any basketball decisions! I don’t want him doing anything that isn’t related to money. He hired Phil for better or worse now let the bloody man do his job.

      Phil was well known for precisely one thing…. namely getting star players to do what others couldn’t a great part of the time by manipulating them.

      I don’t know if he has been thumping Melo to try to make him play in his vision, or to make him waive his NTC, but this is Phil’s balliwick and let him do his stuff,

      And PLEEEEEEEEZe… No Dolan making any BB decisions…..

    49. DRed

      You get rid of KOQ, Lee and even Jennings it would mean more minutes for Noah/Plumlee, Baker, and Rose. Add Melo into that mix and you have more Kuz/Thomas.

      Over the rest of the season that’s nowhere close to a 7 game drop off in talent.

    50. Philmelo

      Over the rest of the season that’s nowhere close to a 7 game drop off in talent.

      Even if its a 2 loss drop that could be multiple lottery spots with how scrunched the pack is right now. That could be difference between Isaac or Fox.

    51. Frank

      So it took Hornacek and Rambis 56 games to realize that you don’t sit your big men back and let every PG in the NBA run wild in the paint? Doesn’t exactly inspire confidence in our “brain trust”

      It’s almost as if they went by the Robin Lopez rules even when they went out of their way this summer to sign Noah — the whole point was that he’s more mobile and so can hedge/help harder on PNRs!!

    52. Frank O.

      I also think if they play defense as well as last night, they could upset someone in the first round.

    53. Bruno Almeida

      upsetting the Cavaliers in a 7 game series?

      well, maybe if LeBron falls over Kyrie after a dunk and both get season ending injuries, who knows.

      if the Knicks get extremely hot and extremely lucky they get the 7th seed, then 7 more lucky games would maybe be enough to beat Boston or Toronto.

    54. Philmelo

      I also think if they play defense as well as last night, they could upset someone in the first round.

      No, we won’t. It took a lot of missed open shots from the Spurs for this win to happen. KP was defensively elite – the rest of the team not so much.

    55. thenoblefacehumper

      I also think if they play defense as well as last night, they could upset someone in the first round.

      Are we gonna do this shit after every win?

    56. wetbandit

      I also think if they play defense as well as last night, they could upset someone in the first round.

      Yeah, us.

    57. DRed

      Even if its a 2 loss drop that could be multiple lottery spots with how scrunched the pack is right now. That could be difference between Isaac or Fox.

      Could be. I think we should trade everyone on the team over 25 if we can, but it’s just not going lead to us winning 3 games for the rest of the year.

    58. Accidentank 2017

      Guys go watch film on De’Aaron Fox and tell me he’s not worth tanking for. Imagine how good Iman Shumpert would have been if he worked hard, didn’t wanna rap, could pass the ball, and could finish a lay up. That’s De’Aaron Fox.

    59. Philmelo

      Could be. I think we should trade everyone on the team over 25 if we can, but it’s just not going lead to us winning 3 games for the rest of the year.

      We can speculate about the number of losses a tank would net we but its irrelevant in the end because if this team isn’t a playoff contender, which it isn’t, then the only other rational option left for us to pursue is a total tank. The NBA’s bottom parity means that a few games will separate #5 from #10. That’s a pretty big deal. We have to go for it.

    60. Philmelo

      Guys go watch film on De’Aaron Fox and tell me he’s not worth tanking for. Imagine how good Iman Shumpert would have been if he worked hard, didn’t wanna rap, could pass the ball, and could finish a lay up. That’s De’Aaron Fox.

      Ntilikina might not have his floor but the ceiling is so much higher. His skinny Euro-frame of 170 lbs will put on weight and he will get stronger + more explosive like Giannis.

    61. thenamestsam

      Are we gonna do this shit after every win?

      The ESPN/ABC guys were doing it consistently yesterday as well: “Oh this could be a huge turning point for the Knicks”. San Antonio is in the midst of a long road trip and played a Sunday afternoon matinee after a Saturday evening in NYC. They missed some shots, we played pretty well and it doesn’t mean anything more than that. We’re not on the verge of some breakthrough here, and honestly, even if the team made dramatic strides towards improving we would still be bad because of just how low the point we’re starting from is. If you’ve watched 50+ games of this Knicks team and still somehow think they’re capable of winning a playoff round you’re optimistic to a level that I truly can’t comprehend.

    62. Philmelo

      If you’ve watched 50+ games of this Knicks team and still somehow think they’re capable of winning a playoff round you’re optimistic to a level that I truly can’t comprehend.

      Or really dumb like most Knicks fans tend to be after wins.

    63. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      @68 At least Ntilikina looks like he can shoot a little, unlike Fox. He might be there by pick #12 or so.

      It looks like the odds of finishing 5th and getting a top 3 lottery pick are about 20%. Did I use that calculator correctly? We’re not finishing 4th.

    64. Frank

      unless Phil makes a top-down decision to tank, I have a hard time believing we’ll sink any lower in the standings than 9th or 10th. There just will be too many other teams tanking.

    65. Frank

      As I understand it re: Ntilikina, there are concerns about how athletic he is ie. quick twitch. Is he going to be able to go by guys in the NBA? And he looks great on defense playing 18 year olds in Europe, but the PGs he’d have to guard in the NBA are basically another species.

      You’d never have to worry about that with Fox, but it’s hard to imagine someone shooting 17% from 3 point range ever becoming more than a barely adequate shooter. And when you can’t shoot as a PG, your ceiling basically becomes Elfrid Payton, Ricky Rubio. Which is a nice player but not exactly who we think of when we talk about tanking.

    66. Bruno Almeida

      the reports on Ntilikina are that he has good, not great, burst, but understands the pace of the game really well.

      that means that he won’t be able to blow past defenders like a Westbrook, but he’s able to switch speeds and find space probing the defense.

      he is doing all this against 18 year olds, yeah, but he’s also 18 and has a supreme body… if he’s a hard worker like the reports say, and a good medical department picks him up, he might be able to develop his body to dominant levels… the tools are pretty much all there.

    67. Philmelo

      As I understand it re: Ntilikina, there are concerns about how athletic he is ie. quick twitch. Is he going to be able to go by guys in the NBA?

      Draft Express also estimates there’s also room for him to athletically improve. He’s 6’5″ (without shoes) at 170 pounds soaking wet. At 18 years old the kid has barely matured into his ectomorphic body. With NBA nutrition and training he can improve his explosiveness. But even so, with a 7 ft. wingspan he might not need to be an elite quick guard. He could very well bulk up and use his superior vertical to his advantage of drives to the basket by drawing contact.

      And he looks great on defense playing 18 year olds in Europe, but the PGs he’d have to guard in the NBA are basically another species.

      Is it any different than many of the NCAA players that guys like Smith, Fox, etc. feast on?

    68. Bruno Almeida

      one interesting thing is that the draftexpress scouting report specifically mention that Ntilikina still has a lot of room to grow in terms of lower body strength, which could help him a lot in terms of explosiveness… they basically picture him as a super smart, multi positional lock down defender who can run the pick and roll expertly, but a player who’s better suited at being a secondary star… that’s one of the reasons I like him so much, he would fit right next to KP and allow and enable him to be the star of the team.

    69. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      I’d rather keep O’Quinn, Jennings, Lee, Kuz and Holiday and try to trade Melo. Continuity is important.
      Draft well with our 11th pick (we’ll get a good player) and sign Teodosic and/or Jrue or acquire Rubio. Plus 2 number 2 picks as well. We could even trade a #2 or a fringe player like Plumlee to move up a slot or two to draft Ntilikina. All of this without destroying our team for a guy who can’t shoot.

    70. Philmelo

      the reports on Ntilikina are that he has good, not great, burst, but understands the pace of the game really well.

      We can’t underestimate how important this is for a young guard. Its what puts him above guys like Monk for example. This kid will understand how to integrate himself as part of any offense no matter how he’s used. He has experience playing either the point or off guard.

      And just for edification. Here is what the 2013 DraftExpressProfile report said about 18 year old 6’9″ Giannis Antetokounmpo as one of his main weaknesses.

      “Needs to fill out his 196 pound frame. Weak base, needs to strengthen lower body. Issues finishing through contact & over length. Fluid athlete but lacks explosiveness, 1st step.”

      Sound familiar? This kid has serious upside as a guard.

    71. Bruno Almeida

      the thing is reub, in your scenario the Knicks are keeping at least 3 players who also can’t shoot and signing another one lol.

    72. Bruno Almeida

      fun fact to elaborate a little further: Fox has a near identical ts% in college than Jrue Holiday had, .533, against .532 for Jrue… Holiday is also a .518 career ts% player, which is pretty shit considering he doesn’t really do anything else at an elite rate.

    73. Ingmarrr

      Our 2 2nd’s can become as good as Draymond and Jokic. Have you guys pictured the two of them next to KP before advocating us blowing up a chance at the playoffs?

    74. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      I’m torn on Fox and Ntilikina. They’re both going to be good-to-elite defenders, and both play an intelligent brand of basketball. Ntilikina won’t ever match the raw athleticism of Fox, who is a quick-twitch PG par excellence. Simultaneously, Fox can’t shoot, and will probably have trouble finishing at the rim at the next level where the athleticism level is going to be higher.

      Ntilikina’s game is more reliant on craftiness, which might end up translating better than Fox’s game which is drive-and-kick with almost a complete absence of long-range shooting. That being said, working on your shooting is much easier to do than working on, say, your rebounding or your first step. I think I give the edge to Ntilikina. They both have solid upside but Frank has better physical tools if they develop optimally.

      Next year if we plan on being in the top 10 for draft picks we should be looking at Luka Doncic (if we’re horrible because he’s going 1-3 and looks drop-dead amazing), Isaac Bonga (looks Giannis-esque), or Troy Brown (6’7 Evan Turner do it all type SG but with a head on his shoulders and can guard 4 positions) if we’re picking around 10. There’s actually a surfeit of SGs and SF in the top half of the first next year, which bodes well for us, given that we still have holes at those 2 positions even if we presumably draft a PG.

    75. djphan

      i would be careful with ntilikina… tall pg’s tend to disappoint.. livingston, exum and mcw… are just recent examples… but tall pg’s just like any other player needs to produce… even at such a young age… and he’s not exactly lighting the french league on fire…

      it’s possible that he’s being misused… but being tall and not producing is the same as any other player who doesn’t produce either… players do get better but very few players start out bad and become even ok players… most bad rookies just flame out…

    76. Bruno Almeida

      honestly, Doncic looks like a bonafide superstar, he’s an insane passer, can play 3 positions and he can score from anywhere on the court against top-shelf euro competition… he’s averaging a godlike 15/7/7 per 36 while playing limited minutes in a stacked team.

      Bonga is super intriguing too, incredible upside.

    77. Bruno Almeida

      @85

      well, if Ntilikina has a career-threatening injury like Livingston had he might not be great then.

      this argument is like saying “czech players tend to be shit, Vesely was a bust”… yeah, not a very logical argument.

    78. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      “the thing is reub, in your scenario the Knicks are keeping at least 3 players who also can’t shoot and signing another one lol.”

      But we’re not tanking to do it. And at least three of those players are good shooters…Lee, Justin Holiday, and O’Quinn. We’re still competing and striving for wins and building a mentality as we add a nice draft pick, maybe as good as what we’ll get at pick 7 or 8 by tanking. We’ll also be adding a good point guard or two, like Teodosic, Jrue or Rubio, and will draft two number twos, whoever they turn out to be….hopefully like fat Willy. We’ll have continuity for the first time in a long time too.

      If we can trade Melo, which I would approve of, we can add more young assets going forward.

    79. Bruno Almeida

      @88

      my argument is that you hate so much the idea of picking up Fox, career .533 ts% in college, but is fine with Holiday, career .518 in the NBA (and .532 college).

    80. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      From Realgm:

      “The Cleveland Cavaliers are seeking a second opinion on the left knee of Kevin Love.

      Love has been ruled out of Tuesday’s game against the Timberwolves, his former team, and there is a strong possibility he’ll miss more time.

      Love is scheduled to play in the All-Star Game this Sunday.

      Love underwent an MRI on Sunday, and while the Cavs have not disclosed results of the procedure, the fact that Love will visit another doctor suggests that something was detected.”

      Hmmm. I’d take him and let him heal properly for Melo. And Lebron won’t be wasting one of the few peak years he has left.

    81. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      @89 Jrue is shooting 46.3% this season overall, 39% from three, and 49.4% from two point range so he’s a good shooter right now. We don’t know if Fox will ever be a good shooter. Big difference.

    82. 2FOR18

      Playoffs! People are talking about the playoffs! And about winning in the playoffs!
      Jeebus, give me strength. This is why knicks fans can’t have good things

    83. Bruno Almeida

      @91

      not really.

      paying 100 million over 4 years for a career .518 ts% shooter who’s having a mediocre season (.545) in his 40 games so far is Isiah-esque.

    84. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      Nbadraft.net has Frank going 10th…. to us. Giles is the next pick.

      Without tanking and giving away all of our 27 yr olds.

      You’re also ignoring my other suggestions of signing Teodosic and/or trading for Rubio.

    85. djphan

      @87 – it’s not saying that at all… but what i’m saying is that i’d be careful with projecting growth for a player who hasn’t produced yet…. no matter how good they look on a tape measure… it has to translate to the court in some discernible fashion no matter how old you are and no matter how good you might look….

    86. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Tell me again why Love’s contract is better than Melo’s?

      Because he helped Cleveland win a title and because he’s better than Melo at basketball and doesn’t have an NTC?

    87. thenoblefacehumper

      Tell me again why Love’s contract is better than Melo’s?

      Much younger, much better, no NTC, and a cheaper contract.

      Take away all of those things though and it’s neck-and-neck!

    88. Bruno Almeida

      @97

      well, no, what you said was that tall PGs tend to disappoint, while giving 3 arbitrary examples.

      Ntilikina is barely playing because euro teams are famous for not giving minutes to younger players, no matter who they are… Porzingis played 14 minutes per game when he was 18 with Cajasol Sevilla… and when Ntilikina got to be the star and play a lot of minutes at the U18 tournament, he produced insanely well.

      now, you might think those stats are irrelevant, that’s your choice, but the argument that tall PGs tend to disappoint is frankly illogical.

    89. Bruno Almeida

      Giannis is a good example of a player you can’t even find stats in Europe, because of how irrelevant the team he played with was, but he was drafted mainly based on great performances at the U20 european national level.

    90. Dough Chew, Ntank Commander

      Shoot for the Fultz. Even if you miss, you’ll land among the Ntilikinas.

      Or something.

    91. Dough Chew, Ntank Commander

      And I think Ntilikina has had good showings for France at the international level.

    92. Bruno Almeida

      I’d be of course very happy with Ntilikina at the #10 without having to trade anyone other than Melo… but as much as I think he’ll be a great player, I would still rather try to get a chance at Isaac, Ball or Fultz.

    93. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      @103 I totally agree that Frank could be the right pick. But not to tank for him (or Fox) because there’s risk involved and he may fall to us anyway. If we have to settle for Giles, Tatum, Bridges or Patton we’re getting a possibly better player anyway.

    94. Bruno Almeida

      @106

      he averaged 15/4.5/2.8 rebounds while shooting 50% overall and 58.6% on 3s and 92.3% on free throws in the 2016 U18 european championship… 3.3 turnovers, not great, but understandable.

    95. SJK

      If KP and Willy continue to start for the rest of the season, it will be interesting to see what we have there. It’s feasible, for example, to imagine them being good enough to get us a few extra wins. While that hurts the tank, it’s at the same time good for the team in long run for obvious reasons.

      If the two of them starting are good enough to lead us to 32 wins instead of 29, it’s hard to be upset about that.

    96. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      @107 Where can we realistically finish? 5th or 6th is the best that we can hope for, giving us a 15 or 20% chance at the sure things. Those aren’t good odds. That’s why I think that playing to win, keeping the continuity, and getting a good player later on in the draft, maybe even Frank, makes sense here. Without breaking up the entire team.

      But I think that most of us can agree that acquiring Love, even with a meniscus tear, is a good strategy if we can do it if it means moving Melo.

    97. Bruno Almeida

      @110

      yeah, it was one of the tantalizing things about Giannis as a prospect… I just used him as an arbitrary example of why it’s not wise to ignore raw potential because there’s no real “production” attached to it.

    98. Cock Jowles, #1 Pythag. Wins Denialist

      Because he helped Cleveland win a title and because he’s better than Melo at basketball and doesn’t have an NTC?

      Ok but like is that all? prove that Melo wouldn’t be a better fit in Cleveland

    99. Bruno Almeida

      @112
      I believe continuity is overrated; having continuity with bad or average players is not going to make them better than their current level, specially if most of them are 27+ years old.

      I think a chance, even a slight one, at a real star potential guy is better than the benefits continuity and winning 32 games instead of 25 would give this group of players… we’re not talking about winning 45 games and having a playoff run against winning 24 games and being terrible.

      if this was a 45 win team I would be fine with staying the course and letting the group develop together… it is not, and won’t ever be, specially when the older guys decline even further.

    100. djphan

      giannis had the benefit of a late growth spurt… and late growth spurts usually mean that old stats are no longer applicable…

      tall pg’s don’t do well absent production…. there aren’t many datapoints but what we do have is not encouraging for a guy like ntilikina…. doing well in u18s is not indicative of much because in the nba you won’t be playing against guys younger than you until you are about to retire if you are so lucky… this is why college upperclassmen who all of a sudden turn it on are huge red flags also …. and also why a lot of highly regarded high school seniors disappoint once they get to college….

      and again… ntilikina could just be misused as he’s playing some offguard but his numbers so far indicate that he won’t even be a bench player in the nba… that’s a long way to go…

    101. geo

      sorry to backtrack about 8 hours or so on the thread – some of us poor folks out here on the west coast gotta work for a living still :-)

      saw some thing on espn today suggesting spree should have refused the invite from dolan…fuck that – was glad to see spree sitting there courtside trying to be cool with big daddy warbucks…get what you can get when you can get it…good for you spree…

      the vin baker thing was a little weird – but hey, can’t never have too much backup, right guitar jimmy…

      shit…if james needs any more friends – hell, i’m both cheap and easy (not for 50 bucks though – that ain’t cutting it)…

      yeah, for the most part i’m like the majority here and fantasizing about some rook who can come aboard next year and help turn this mess around…

      it was good though to see the fans at the garden happy, the team happy for the moment, and to know all those poor knick fans around the world, like myself, tuning in got a brief respite…

      get in where you fit in folks…probably not too many more shining moments left in this season…

    102. Bruno Almeida

      @117

      sorry, but again you make no sense.

      Ntilikina was playing against guys around his own age, that’s the entire point of having an Under 18 tournament in the first place… just like every single college kid in history has done… so should we disregard productive freshmen in the NCAA because well, they won’t play against kids around their age in the NBA?

      or do you really think that college freshmen facing seniors is that much different than Ntilikina facing the best U18 players in Europe? When most juniors / seniors in college are the not-great players who weren’t projected to be good enough to be drafted as freshmen?

    103. Philmelo

      Giannis is also 7? taller.

      Back in 2013 when Giannis was 18 in Greece he was 6’9. Which brings me to another point about Ntilikina. Back in 2015 when he first appeared on the scouts radar as a 17 year old in the Basketball Without Borders Tourney they had him as a 6’4 guard. After this December at the U18 Tournament he was measured as 6’5 without shoes. With room to grow, I wouldn’t be surprised if Ntilikina becomes a 6’6/6’7 guard when its all said and done.

    104. Philmelo

      he averaged 15/4.5/2.8 rebounds while shooting 50% overall and 58.6% on 3s and 92.3% on free throws in the 2016 U18 european championship… 3.3 turnovers, not great, but understandable.

      He was also sick for the entire tournament. So sick he didn’t want to enter it until France forced him.

    105. Philmelo

      tall pg’s don’t do well absent production…. there aren’t many datapoints but what we do have is not encouraging for a guy like ntilikina…. doing well in u18s is not indicative of much because in the nba you won’t be playing against guys younger than you until you are about to retire if you are so lucky… this is why college upperclassmen who all of a sudden turn it on are huge red flags also …. and also why a lot of highly regarded high school seniors disappoint once they get to college….

      The beautiful part about Ntilikina is that he can also be an off-guard/2 guard. His shooting stroke is that good and his defense is that solid he can handle larger guards and swingmen. Ultimately, I think he can clean up his handle with his freakishly large hands – another Giannis type trait BTW.

    106. Cock Jowles, #1 Pythag. Wins Denialist

      if this was a 45 win team I would be fine with staying the course and letting the group develop together… it is not, and won’t ever be, specially when the older guys decline even further.

      When you have a 45-win core, you clear space for a max-level player and swing for the fences for a true franchise player (Harden, Davis, Westbrook, Durant, James, etc.) in free agency. When you have a 33-win core, you divest yourself of long-term, veteran contracts by trading them for draft picks, and you swing for the fences there.

      This team managed a 54-win roster and then jettisoned the “supporting” star in favor of the “superstar.” Two seasons later and it’s a 17-win team. Because Knicks.

    107. Philmelo

      Adam Silver had Jim Dolan and Charles Oakley in his office to reconcile with Michael Jordan on the phone: “It is beyond disheartening to see situations involving members of the NBA family like the one that occurred at Madison Square Garden this past week. In an effort to find a path forward, New York Knicks owner Jim Dolan, Charles Oakley, and I met today at the league office, along with Michael Jordan, who participated by phone…. Both Mr. Oakley and Mr. Dolan were apologetic about the incident and subsequent comments, and their negative impact on the Knicks organization and the NBA. Mr. Dolan expressed his hope that Mr. Oakley would return to MSG as his guest in the near future… I appreciate the efforts of Mr. Dolan, Mr. Oakley and Mr. Jordan to work towards a resolution of this matter.”

    108. djphan

      i don’t know what’s so difficult to understand…. how old was ntilikina relative to everyone else in the u18? in case you didn’t know… u18 stands for 18 and under…. which means he’s the same age or older than everyone in that tourney… dominating ppl your own age isn’t an amazing feat… it is a prerequisite… how good would jerian grant look if everyone he played against was younger? well that’s what happened when he got the summer league mvp….

      college is much much different than u18s… as freshmen everyone they play against is older than them…. that’s why if they dominate as freshmen it’s as good as predictor as we have that they will eventually be really good players in the nba…. what a freshmen does in college means something entirely different than what a senior does… u18s aren’t much different than looking at extended high school play… and that’s where you’ll find plenty of ppl who can dominate against that kind of competition but also very few who are able to take that next step and dominate once they go up a level…

      the mcdonald’s all americans are filled with guys who have dominated in hs but also very few who have gone on to dominate college basketball… and very few who dominate college basketball go onto dominate the nba…. but the large majority who have been great in the nba also dominated at every level they’ve been at…. so a guy having issues even at this age should be a major red flag…

    109. Philmelo

      how good would jerian grant look if everyone he played against was younger? well that’s what happened when he got the summer league mvp….

      Jerian Grant was a full grown 24 year old man playing many kids out of college who weren’t fully matured men. I think your analogy is bad.

    110. Bruno Almeida

      he is not having issues, have you not read the stats? he absolutely crushed competition of his age or younger, and he barely plays for a team that has like 4 more experienced guards than him.

      I don’t care if Lonzo Ball eats senior guards who will play in Serbia if they are very lucky next year for breakfast, I care about the potential he shows and how he can develop in the pros… and that has a lot more to do with the skills he shows, the state of his body and the potential development of it. Most college teams wouldn’t win in the D-League and the ones that would are filled with star freshman / sophomore players that are NBA hopefuls around his age.

      but well, you seem to have decided Ntilikina will be a bust already and there’s nothing I can say, apparently, so you do you man.

      @123

      I agree completely… there’s no reason at all to stay the course if you’re the Knicks, even if this team was better than it the garbage it is.

    111. MSA

      I’m not very high on Frank due the high risk but you gotta give him some credit for his U18 play.

      Here are U18 MVPs so far.

      2000 – Tony Parker
      2002 – Erazem Lorbek
      2004 – Sergio Rodríguez
      2005 – Dragan Labovi
      2006 – Nicolas Batum
      2007 – Kosta Koufos
      2008 – Donatas Motiejunas
      2009 – Enes Kanter
      2010 – Jonas Valanciunas
      2011 – Álex Abrines
      2012 – Dario Šaric
      2013 – Kenan Sipahi
      2014 – Egemen Güven
      2015 – Vassilis Charalampopoulos
      2016 – Frank Ntilikina

      Most of them are real NBA players. Some of them are too young yet to judge.

      Frank probably will not gonna be a game changer, but the odds of getting one between the 8th and 13th pick are not very high anyway.

    112. stratomatic

      I have concluded that one of the things wrong with the Knicks defense is that we no longer have Langston Galloway.

    113. swiftandabundant

      I hate the mentality of having to get a game changer with the draft pick. We have Zinger and Willie H. Getting that second star (sans Melo) in the next 5 years will not be difficult if we draft well. That doesn’t mean we have to get a game changer. We just have to draft well…ie, get good young rotation players and then develop them. I hate the idea of having to draft another star. Of course its nice but man so many times even the top pick turns into not a game changer. And I think it puts too much pressure on that player…ie, its kind of like “win now” but with draft picks instead of free agents. We expect them to be stars and when they are not we want to kick them to the curb.

      Develop the young guys (Zinger, Willie, Baker). Draft well and add more young players with potential. Create a team first culture and start to win games. Do that with a young team and one star (Zinger) and you’ll get your second star either via a trade, free agency or through the draft.

      I mean all these dudes people are salivating over in the top 5…every single one of them could just turn into an average NBA player.

    114. er

      This team managed a 54-win roster and then jettisoned the “supporting” star in favor of the “superstar.” Two seasons later and it’s a 17-win team. Because Knicks.

      Ok Kelly Ann. Nice alternative facts.

    115. latke

      @swiftandabundant

      The fact that no one can predict the future with perfect accuracy doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try for the outcome that has the best chance of paying off. When you run a red light, sometimes you don’t get a ticket and don’t get in an accident. Some people who smoke their whole lives never get cancer. Sometimes you get away with shoplifting.

      The bottom line though is that these are all reckless choices, and over time, if you continue making reckless choices, you will almost without question be punished.

      ” And I think it puts too much pressure on that player…ie, its kind of like “win now” but with draft picks instead of free agents. We expect them to be stars and when they are not we want to kick them to the curb.”

      The whole point of rebuilding is to take pressure off. On a win now team, Westbrook never gets to fuck up as PG for several seasons in a row while he’s learning the ropes. The message from the top when you choose to rebuild is, “We have faith in you young guys and are going to give you time to grow up.” The message from the top when you don’t is, “This team is about now, and those who aren’t ready don’t fit.”

      I mean, imagine if when you were kid and first got into organized sports, they only let you play on the varsity team. You’d ride the bench, and when you did play and you made that first mistake, the older kids would flip out. That’s the environment you create when you try to force short term success on a team that’s not ready to win in the short term.

    116. Bruno Almeida

      thank you, latke.

      yes, we could theoretically build a winner around Porzingis with mid to late picks and hope good players will eventually show up… but why should this team squander a chance that has the best possible outcome to do it?

      it has been proven many times in the NBA that the best players come from high lottery picks, and obviously it’s not a sure thing, but what is certain? not even KP developing into a star player is a sure thing. I can’t believe people are advocating with certainty that 5% is bigger than 40%, and I’m being kind on the numbers.

    117. Owen

      I was reading about the Sixers getting angry at Embiid for dancing at a concert today, good piece on Deadspin i think, and took a stroll through the Sixers B-Ref page.

      Nerlens Noel has played a pretty sparkling 500 minutes this season. He’s gone full T-1000, his TS% is 62% and his turnover rate is down dramatically. Someone is going to fill in the blank and tell me why this is a fluke but he seems to be making a third year leap.

    118. stratomatic

      This team managed a 54-win roster and then jettisoned the “supporting” star in favor of the “superstar.” Two seasons later and it’s a 17-win team. Because Knicks.

      Ok Kelly Ann. Nice alternative facts.

      I agree 100%.

      The Knicks had 2/3 of a proven championship team in Chandler and Kidd. By some advanced metrics they contributed very significantly to 54 win season even though as usual “the scorer” got most of the credit. The Knicks deteriorated badly in each of the next 2 seasons as each of those players were discarded helping to confirm their significant value that year.

      At least you were correct in giving an good example of alternative facts. Melo fans have facts provided by many models, they are just using the wrong models.

    119. MSA

      It’s not about getting a game change either. It’s about the odds of getting the best player possible.

      Ntilikina seems to have all the physical tools to succeed, but it’s very hard to quantify anything with his non-existent numbers in Europe. Several players came to the league as athletic freaks and didn’t go nowhere (Stromile Swift?)

      As I said, I give Ntilikina some credit for his U18 play but that’s like what, 7 games?

      I much rather go for someone with some sort of track record.

      If we had multiple picks I would totally fine with swinging for some unknown potential player.

    120. swiftandabundant

      @ 135 – dude, I get it. You all want as high as a pick as possible. I’m just saying don’t be shocked if we get a top 5 pick and that player ends up worse than another team that drafts later. Who drafts the player really matters too.

      I’d love to see a list of each NBA’s teams draft picks (both rounds) since say 2000 and compare them all. If you compared the Spurs (outlier) to say The Kings (another outlier) you’d have a list of good to great players drafted later vs. a list of ok or shitty players drafted higher. I don’t think hoping for just a lottery pick savior is a strategy or answer to our problems. So I’m less inclined to be so worried about picking 4th vs. 8th. If we scout well we can get a good player anywhere and developing that player (along with the ones we all ready have) is just as important. That is all I’m saying.

    121. Bruno Almeida

      Noel is the new under appreciated star that will go under the radar for most casual (or regular Knicks) fans because “he’s limited offensively”…

    122. KnickfaninNJ

      I have concluded that one of the things wrong with the Knicks defense is that we no longer have Langston Galloway.

      This could actually be true. I used to think that defense was mostly effort and teamwork, but now I think differently. People are good or bad at defense just like some are good or bad at offense. It’s very hard to make bad defensive players better at defense. The Knicks clearly lack defensive talent and Galloway would have have helped in that regard.

    123. swiftandabundant

      For example everyone uses the Jordan Hill example as a cautionary tale but people forget that Jrue Holiday was drafted later in the first round. I’d obviously still want Steph Curry over Jrue Holiday but how different does the 2010 reboot look if we had young Jrue Holiday in the fold? Instead the Knicks crapped the bed bc they didn’t get the guy they really wanted so they took who they thought was the next best player according to draft lists or whatever and they got screwed out of a good PG. Also right after we picked Jordan Hill the raptors picked Derozan.

    124. KJG

      I’m watching Noel right now. He is extremely active…hands feet …sixers are playing pretty well tonight. Saric is getting better too with each game

    125. Bruno Almeida

      wikipedia has a list, swift, and I’ve made this comparison many, many times.

      you can find good players in the lower parts of the draft, but they are very very far and few between, while most great players were high draft picks. considering it seems fair to say the Knicks are neither the Spurs nor the Kings, that’s why Im so adamant about a good draft position.

      you are right that development is sometimes more important than a raw star, but if you have the right development, isn’t getting a potential star better than getting a good role
      player anyway, since both would develop and one has a higher ceiling?

      of course we can draft the new Kawhi, but again, how probable is that comparing to the probability of a top 5 pick becoming a good player? All i’m advocating is that probability is still a relevant tool.

    126. swiftandabundant

      Jowles – the way you wrote that sentence made it seem like the Knicks traded Chandler after the 54 win season, which is false. Maybe you didn’t mean to write it like that but that is how its read. The Knicks won 54 games and then decided to trade Chandler. Which is false. The Knicks traded Chandler after a season where he underperformed, broke his leg and generally checked out on the team. I loved Chandler and yes that trade in hindsight looks bad (mainly because of Calderon) but you did alternative facts your statement.

    127. Bruno Almeida

      the Sixers are playing like they are the clear better team than the Hornets… they might win more games than they do when all is said and done in this season.

    128. swiftandabundant

      @ 145 – fair enough. I’m not totally sold on trading away everyone just to get a higher pick though. I think we will most likely get a top 8 pick and that’s fine with me. We have them going forward every year plus multiple second rounders too. I know we could get value for KQ but also maybe he’s worth keeping around. I don’t know. So many people on here talk like they know the future when they don’t.

    129. KJG

      This time McConnell just going to the rack … how come our only guy that gets to the rack like this happens to be a freak athlete…

    130. Totes McGoats

      RE: Ntilikina

      You know who I miss? Penny Hardaway. In the past few years I’ve seen 2 PG’s with Penny-like qualities. One got injured early, and the other hasn’t made it to the league yet. Dante Exum and Ntilikina. Exum’s not quite as athletic as Penny was but his game kinda reminded me of him as does Ntilikina. I don’t wanna compare them because Penny was incredible. I’m just sayin it would be nice to see another Penny. Maybe Ntilikina’s not a bad choice if we can’t get Ball in the draft. And for the record, I’d be just as happy with Isaac. A Willy/KP/Isaac frontcourt is a nice fit in today’s NBA

    131. KJG

      There’s definitely a general ineptitude in the way we play when I’m watching no names, retreads, cast offs and promising rookies play a pretty solid all around game

    132. Bruno Almeida

      @150

      I would love to see Melo go, and O’Quinn traded if a good offer comes; I don’t think he’s developing much further than what he is now and he’s probably at his peak value.

      outside of that, I’m either fine with keeping everyone (outside of Rose obviously who needs to not be re-signed) or understand the fact that they aren’t going anywhere (Noah, Lance).

      I agree with you tha I would be fine with a top 8 pick… not super happy, but fine enough… I still think getting let’s say, the 13th pick is a disaster, though, because that’s precisely where the potential talent dies off in this specific draft.

    133. Bruno Almeida

      KJG, McConnell and Covington are quietly playing pretty well lately… the Sixers tries hard and seems like a well structured team despite the obvious lack of talent that leads them to play dudes like Ilyasova, Henderson or Rodriguez big minutes.

    134. Bruno Almeida

      in other bizarre news, Giannis has 0 points and the Bucks are beating the Pistons by 17 points at halftime, Monroe is a man possessed right now.

    135. DRed

      I have concluded that one of the things wrong with the Knicks defense is that we no longer have Langston Galloway.

      Be nice to have his rebounding and decent on ball defense for sure.

    136. DRed

      I am very much going to enjoy the lamestream nba media struggle to wrap their brains around Philly winning without All-Star caliber center Joel Embiid. Did you know they have the best defense in the NBA when he plays with their starters?

    137. KJG

      Would love to have Galloway back… sixers are giving saric some good minutes here… he plays with a nice aggression and appears to be a tough dude. Roco not shooting so hot here in the 4th… and geez… Gerald Henderson. I remember many of his 15 footers against our Knicks.

      No illyasova or El chacho much in the 4th

    138. ClashFan

      The NBA statement about the Dolan/Oakley situation is pretty much PR. Hopefully, though, Silver made a real attempt to resolve the situation and not just try to appease Oakley to avoid an embarrassing lawsuit.

      I’d really like to see Oakley honored at the Garden. He was a great Knick.

    139. stratomatic

      This could actually be true. I used to think that defense was mostly effort and teamwork, but now I think differently. People are good or bad at defense just like some are good or bad at offense. It’s very hard to make bad defensive players better at defense. The Knicks clearly lack defensive talent and Galloway would have have helped in that regard.

      I am sometimes wrong, but I am rarely spectacularly wrong like I was this year. I was more worried about the offense this year than the defense because we have so many inefficient scorers (KP improving has helped) and I thought we got better defensively in some spots . I thought there was a very good chance the defense was going to be top 10-12. That’s being spectacularly wrong.

      Defense is hard to measure because some of it is individual, some of it is team, and some of it is scheme/strategy. It’s hard to find reasons the Knicks are this bad defensively. You can point to Rose, Melo, and Jennings. Some have even pointed to Lee being disappointing. But Melo hasn’t deteriorated that much. KP is KP. There’s no way Rose and Lee are worse than Calderon and Afflalo. Noah is not same old Noah from years ago, but he’s not a big drop off from Lopez. So you have to start looking elsewhere. That leaves you with Galloway (who was clearly a good defender) and Lance Thomas who was also good and has been very diminished and out for most of the year.

    140. KJG

      76ers

      Batum guaranteed a win… McConnell said nuh Uh…

      Also you guys might like to know … Nate Robinson making his home debut for Delaware 87ers tomorrow !

    141. Bruno Almeida

      Juan Hernangomez is playing heavy minutes against the Warriors and playing super well, 11 points in 7 shots, 2 three pointers, 2 rebounds and a steal in one quarter, played every minute so far.

    142. Bruno Almeida

      Juantcho has 17 and is keeping up with Durant on defense… 77 points so far for the Nuggets in the first half, holy shit.

    143. Bruno Almeida

      the Nuggets made 16/23 3s, had 21 assists and 30 rebounds in the half… Juantcho leading the team with 17 and 4 rebounds.

      man, if they can get some value out of their veterans, this team can be reeeal good, with Murray / Hernangomez / Jokic.

    144. djphan

      i never said ntilikina will be a bust… but him struggling right now means a great deal as in it’s a long road to get to where he is now to an allstar without the aid of a growth spurt or him being totally neutered by his coach.. he’ll probably struggle for a long while before he finds his groove if he ever does…

      there are very few players who fall into the ‘tools’ camp that lack production and go onto succeed… and for those that did had extenuating circumstances surrounding them… marc gasol(massive weight loss), deandre jordan(coaching) and giannis(growth spurt)… for ntilikina it might be the coaching but it’s going to take a lot of full game viewings to determine if that’s the case… i don’t think anyone stateside could determine if that’s what it is or not…

      if it’s a hunch.. that’s fine.. but don’t judge prospects from highlight reels… that’s how you fall in love with guys like exum…

    145. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Jokic almost had a triple double in one half my lord

      And Juan! Denvers gonna be a fun team to watch for a long time coming.

    146. Cock Jowles, #1 Pythag. Wins Denialist

      Jokic is really, really good. He’s pudgy and probably always will be, but you can see the feel he has for the game. He’d be a great center for the Triangle if the Triangle weren’t totally fucking stupid in today’s NBA.

    147. d-mar

      Somehow amid this Nuggets love fest the name Emanuel Mudiay hasn’t come up. He’s their PG of the future folks, unless you think Jameer Nelson has 5 good years left.

    148. Bruno Almeida

      Mudiay is not a big issue, honestly.

      he’s still in his rookie contract which is dirt cheap until 2020, and probably has trade value… if he absolutely cannot develop into something useful, Denver can just give up on him for no price and use the gigantic cap space they have to get someone better… they also have plenty of assets and young, cheap players under team control for many years, and Gallinari specially is very tradeable.

      they already have 16 million in cap space this season without making any moves, even after re-signing Plumlee they’ll be in prime position to fill the holes around Jokic and whatever young player eventually emerges from Juantcho, Murray, Harris, Mudiay and Beasley.

    149. Bruno Almeida

      Nuggets tied a nba record for 3 pointers made, 24… damn, I wish we had both Hernangomez’s brothers.

    150. Philmelo

      Our tank would be in such a much better position had we lost yesterday. So many big wins from our competitors to the bottom. What a waste. It pisses me off that people in the fandom don’t realize that a top 5 draft choice is available for us if we commit to failure.

    151. Philmelo

      This Kevin Love situation is a very interesting one. Phil better hope he didn’t completely burn a bridge with Melo because a 1 for 1 trade is very doable if a doctor’s second opinion reveals that Love’s knee needs rehab.

    152. Philmelo

      Phil should eat crow with Melo and admit he fucked up building a team around his talents (which is bullshit but whatever) to get a waiver on that NTC. Then he should get on the phone with Griffin and offer Melo/Jennings for Love/Frye straight up now. Period. The end. Then he should sit Love down for the rest of the season and heal his knee while talking to any and all teams that finish behind in the win column into trading their first round pick for him. If Boston bites, we can get a top 3 pick and have our probable top 10 pick.

    153. yellowboy90

      Why would any other teams want Love after he has broken down? I doubt teams are thinking …Hey, Kevin I know the team that you’ve won a championship with didn’t want you but I think you are the missing piece for us to beat the Cavs.

    154. rama

      Noel is the new under appreciated star that will go under the radar for most casual (or regular Knicks) fans because “he’s limited offensively”…

      I doubt anyone here would say anything like that.

      I thought there was a very good chance the defense was going to be top 10-12. That’s being spectacularly wrong.

      Same here. I made identical assumptions about offense and defense and have been surprised that we are so incredibly bad at defense. Coaching has to be some of it – it can’t all be Gallo and Lance.

    155. KnickfaninNJ

      Stratomatic, you make a lot of sense. It’s weird watching the team this season. When watching, I often feel like they should be better than they are, but then they just keep giving up baskets. I hope very much one or two more reasonable defenders will make a big difference.

    156. Philmelo

      Why would any other teams want Love after he has broken down?

      By this logic no one would want Melo either since he had knee surgery to shut his season down two years ago. Or no one would want Blake Griffin since he “broke down” with a knee injury and needed surgery in 2016. But we know this isn’t true. Teams like the Celtics will take the risk because a healthy Love could mean the difference between a Finals or not.

    157. Z-man

      Our tank would be in such a much better position had we lost yesterday. So many big wins from our competitors to the bottom. What a waste. It pisses me off that people in the fandom don’t realize that a top 5 draft choice is available for us if we commit to failure.

      It pisses me off that people in the fandom make dumb statements like this one. Who the fuck doesn’t realize it?

      Let me enlighten you to a simple fact. It doesn’t matter if every single fan and his/her mother realizes it. The only thing that matters is whether management/ownership commit to failure, and even in the unlikely event that they trade Melo before the deadline, that’s not a sure thing. Until they do, feel free to keep on living your pipe dream.

      As to me, I fully expect that they will keep on trying to win, for better or for worse, and I’ll keep on enjoying wins. If and when they (Dolan/Phil) decide to change course, I’ll just go with the flow and root for the development of the young guys. I’m not gonna beat my head against the wall like you and others seem content to do when what I think makes absolutely no difference in the team’s direction.

    158. Philmelo

      Who the fuck doesn’t realize it?

      The NYC media for one. A sizable segment of our fanbase for another.

      Let me enlighten you to a simple fact. It doesn’t matter if every single fan and his/her mother realizes it.

      Actually, its quite the opposite. Its the Knick fandom that drives this franchise’s failure. Dolan and his cronies only get away with whatever incompetence Knicks fans allow. Right now a mass of moron fans are begging for Melo to stay with the Knicks so we can play for an 8th seed chance of losing to the Cavs in the playoffs. This is precisely the type of mentality which has relegated the Knicks to an endless loop of mediocrity and irrelevance the past 17 years because it has allowed our management to be complacent to the prospect of any rebuild.

      As to me, I fully expect that they will keep on trying to win, for better or for worse, and I’ll keep on enjoying wins.

      Hence, the problem. Meanwhile in Philadelphia their fans are happy that Colangelo is going to keep Ben Simmons from playing the season because they want 2 top 10 selections in the draft. They get it. Its why they already have a team that is playing about as well as ours without Embiid or Simmons with the added benefit of expecting more talent coming aboard next season.

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