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Friday, March 22, 2019

Knicks Morning News (2016.09.26)

  • [SNY Knicks] Five Questions Facing the Knicks in Training Camp
    (Sunday, September 25, 2016 2:30:37 PM)

  • [NYTimes] NBA’s King of Fashion Russell Westbrook Talks Style
    (Sunday, September 25, 2016 7:06:41 AM)

    When you’re Russell Westbrook, the undisputed king of NBA fashion, you don’t spend the offseason like a typical player.

  • [ESPN] Monday’s Knicks News: Jeff Hornacek needs Carmelo Anthony to change his game
    (Monday, September 26, 2016 5:32:34 AM)

    Monday’s Knicks News: Jeff Hornacek needs Carmelo Anthony to change his game

  • [ESPN] Knicks hope summer additions lessen the burden on Carmelo Anthony
    (Sunday, September 25, 2016 8:57:25 AM)

    Knicks hope summer additions lessen the burden on Carmelo Anthony

  • [NYPost] Behind Knicks’ plan to relaunch Carmelo Anthony’s game
    (Sunday, September 25, 2016 8:10:31 PM)

    After failing to lead the Knicks to the playoffs for three straight seasons, Carmelo Anthony is being asked to alter his game for new coach Jeff Hornacek. That’s the strong indication coming from team president Phil Jackson and Hornacek as training camp opens Monday. Hornacek promises to speed up the triangle offense. Over the offseason,…

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    70 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2016.09.26)

    1. kevin5318

      http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20160926_Nerlens_Noel__Sixers_situation__doesn_t_make_any_sense_.html

      “I think it’s just silly . . . this situation that we are in now with three starting centers,” Noel said on the eve of the Sixers’ media day. “With the departure of [former general manager and president] Sam Hinkie, I would have figured that management would be able to get something done this summer.”

      Nice to see Nerlens trusting the process.

    2. Frank

      My guess is that there will be a settlement and it’ll be announced the day before the trial is due to start. Brinksmanship is everywhere these days. Both sets of attorneys are playing poker now.

      Ugly stuff. Terrible start to this new year.

    3. JK47

      If LAPD decides to prosecute, the Knicks will have to make some very tough decisions about allowing Rose to play. Anybody can sue anybody for anything, but it’s a different matter entirely if law enforcement thinks there is enough evidence to prosecute Derrick Rose.

      This situation continues to get worse and is now a major black cloud hanging over this season.

    4. DRed

      Scenarios for good starting PG play:

      1. Rose plays well for the first time in 5 years

      2. Rose gets arrested

      3. Rose gets hurt

      This is intelligent roster construction

    5. JK47

      Derrick Rose is going to regain his MVP form very soon. The problem is that it is going to be as a member of the 2017-2018 Guangdong Southern Tigers.

    6. Cock Jowles, Betting the Under in 2017

      If LAPD decides to prosecute, the Knicks will have to make some very tough decisions about allowing Rose to play. Anybody can sue anybody for anything, but it’s a different matter entirely if law enforcement thinks there is enough evidence to prosecute Derrick Rose.

      This situation continues to get worse and is now a major black cloud hanging over this season.

      And Team Realists, are we surprised? To my mind, there’s no excuse to root for Rose except “I like the way the blue and orange colors looks when the basketball players win the basketball games,” and even then, take a hard fuckin’ look in the mirror.

      Chicago fans were livid when they traded him. They can have him.

    7. JK47

      “Hey if you want to root for choirboys maybe you should follow the National Choirboy Association instead of the NBA” some asshat will inevitably say.

    8. Frank

      It’s becoming more and more likely that Derrick Rose never plays a minute in a Knicks’ uniform.

      this is like a 0.000000001% possibility. Rose is going to settle, and while I’m no lawyer, I think it’s extraordinarily unlikely that this turns into a real case. All the evidence has been out there for 2 years+, and in what is basically a he-said-she-said situation, it’d be very difficult to imagine that a DA would take a reputation risk that he could get guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

      I’m not saying that he’s guilty or not guilty, just that I don’t think it’s going to go that direction in terms of legal proceedings.

    9. JK47

      The District Attorney of Los Angeles is Jackie Lacey, who happens to be an African-American woman, and the DA’s office already appears to be putting the screws to Rose’s civil case and to his public reputation with their actions here. I don’t know if it’s just somebody doing a favor to the lawyers for the plaintiff in this case or if the DA’s office is really considering prosecuting Rose, but I wouldn’t say it’s “extraordinarily unlikely” that Lacey’s office brings a case.

    10. JK47

      I should also add that Lacey is popular here (I’m an Angeleno) and she was just re-elected to a new term after running unopposed in June.

    11. wetbandit

      Ridiculous. Replace JR Smith’s meaningless shoelace scandals with a rape scandal. Culture change!

      I don’t think Team Real vs optimist or whatever should have anything to do with this.

    12. wetbandit

      On a more optimistical note:

      “@carmeloanthony tells me he’s had e-mail exchanges w/ @Kaepernick7 and supports him. Also wants to take “the next step” to help communities.”

      I like this Melo guy.

    13. swiftandabundant

      Not here to defend Rose and his upcoming rape trial. But I think when phil said “culture change” and bringing in “high character” people he was referring more to the basketball court than off the court, if they are a decent human being. Hell, he coached Rodman, Artest and Kobe. I think Artest was better off the court than he was given credit for but all of those guys had their off the court issues for various reasons. But all of them were smart, hard working basketball players who didn’t really do stupid shit like untie shoelaces or pout on the court.

      Hell Jason Kidd got a DUI right before the 54 win season and was a notorious wife beater but I don’t remember anyone here complaining about how he hurt our culture when he was a Knick.

    14. er

      Hell Jason Kidd got a DUI right before the 54 win season and was a notorious wife beater but I don’t remember anyone here complaining about how he hurt our culture when he was a Knick.

      #FACTS

    15. JK47

      Hell Jason Kidd got a DUI right before the 54 win season and was a notorious wife beater but I don’t remember anyone here complaining about how he hurt our culture when he was a Knick.

      There was also not some hippie doofus running the team making all sorts of noise about “changing the culture” back then.

    16. Owen

      I have to admit, it’s a good point about Jason Kidd.

      And it’s true that a lot of guys I have rooted for have probably done stuff I don’t approve of.

      That said, something about Derrick Rose feels different. Just doesn’t feel right – and not because he’s played like crap for years. Not sure why this is that much worse than other things other players have done. Probably more the circumstances, the way we went after him despite the fact his redemption narrative hadn’t yet played out. But all in all, just a super bad taste in my mouth.

    17. massive

      It’s definitely because Derrick Rose sucks, bro. If the Knicks traded for CP3 and it were his rape case Knickerblogger.Net would not be up in arms.

    18. JK47

      I would say that part of the outrage, maybe half of it, is because Derrick Rose sucks. And that is a more “fan” based kind of outrage. As a fan of the Knicks, I’m outraged that they traded for Derrick Rose in the first place, and this whole miserable situation makes what was already a terrible trade into a catastrophically bad trade.

      But the more significant outrage comes from the nature of the alleged attack itself. This is not “he said, she said,” this is “she said, THEY said.” Derrick Rose is accused of perpetrating a gang rape. He is being accused of taking advantage of a woman who was not able to give consent and encouraging two other men to violate her. That is a really heinous thing to be accused of. Some of Rose’s answers in his deposition are very troubling, like when he is asked if he understands the meaning of the word “consent” and he says “no.” The conduct of his legal team could charitably be described as “aggressive,” but I think the word “appalling” is actually more appropriate.

      Guilty or not guilty, Derrick Rose is a very unappealing human being. Not an easy dude to root for.

    19. Kevin Udwary

      this whole miserable situation makes what was already a terrible trade into a catastrophically bad trade.

      Yeah, this is a big part of it. Even if you take away the visceral disgust of the details of the case, this was still an awful trade. We gave up tangible assets for a player who has been awful for years, and has a multimillion dollar lawsuit and possible criminal charges hanging over him. Any little trust I had in the front office is certainly gone.

    20. Nick C.

      The Kidd rejoinder is valid. But the world has changed, in that regard. Since then there has been Ray Rice, Adrian Peterson, Ardolis Chapman, Jose Reyes and who knows how many others that I don’t recall that were suspended for off the court “behavior” issues.

    21. thenoblefacehumper

      Some morons, who didn’t understand that criminal charges are largely out of the control of alleged victims, argued that the absence of a criminal investigation somehow made it more likely the Derrick Rose didn’t gang rape a woman. So the silver lining to this clusterfuck is that a sizable amount of morons now have to shut their moronic mouths.

      Other than that, this almost feels like a low point in my Knicks fandom. We all know how much that says.

    22. Cock Jowles, Betting the Under in 2017

      I don’t think Team Real vs optimist or whatever should have anything to do with this.

      Should? It does. Look at the people who have defended (sometimes cautiously) Rose against the allegations and look at the people who are largely convinced by the deposition, which shows Rose as an aggressive sex partner who lacks an understanding of the very word “consent.”

      The party lines are well-drawn on this board.

    23. chrisk06811

      If charges are filed, and Rose is found guilty, despite like you say…..this is he said, she said…..would his defense still be better than Jose Calderons?

    24. Totes McGoats

      OT: Mike Dantoni is a bigger idiot than I thought if he starts Harden and Gordon in Houston.

      I was just about to say the same thing. I like Coach Pringles..I really do. But if this idea isn’t a perfect fit for a stereotype of his coaching theory, I don’t know what is. He should be fired if he starts anyone else other than Beverley alongside Harden. I get the idea since Harden practically is the offense. But any team who pays Harden to chase around PG’s should be disbanded and forgotten forever lol. I really think..hope..that this means Harden will have a higher usage rate as a defacto PG and not play the actual position of PG.

    25. dtrickey

      The whole case is irksome. Certainly not defending Rose or any of his alleged actions, but as an outsider looking in the whole thing is a circus. As a lawyer over here in Australia it’s amazing to see how this has played out so differently in the media and how much access the general public have pre-trial to certain materials. Most sexual assault cases (and suits in general) have very limited public access to information before a trial, and it’s not really until a Court has made a decision that they get reported on. The lawyer in me finds it fascinating, but the Knicks supporter and halfway decent human would prefer not to have anything to do with Rose.

    26. dtrickey

      On an actual basketball note: KP was looking buff(er than last year) at media day. Looks like he has put some muscle on those noodles.

    27. ClashFan

      I never liked Rose and will have a hard time rooting for him regardless of this case, which is very likely to be settled. Most of what’s going on by the attorneys on both sides seems despicable to me, but I guess it is all part of that world and the posturing for leverage in settlement negotiations.

      Interesting that KP said that he failed to work on his legs last year, only his upper body. Who was advising him on that?

    28. Theo

      Rose is not a pleasant character *at this point* because of a number of circumstances that combine into a shitstorm of bad publicity: diminished skill, rape allegations, deluded/arrogant/stupid behavior, aloofness, refusal to rush to come back from injury when his team needed him badly, coming to NY with a superstar salary and Westchester Knicks production, etc.

      Knicks would not be any worse if they had made Jennings the starting pg and kept Lopez and Grant. That ship has sailed, though…

    29. Theo

      BTW, I do agree with those who feel a lot of the critics would sing a very different tune if Rose could still play like MVP Rose.

    30. dtrickey

      They have laws in Australia?

      Well I mean they differ from Mad Max gang to Mad Max gang, but they are still laws. That said anything goes in the Thunderdome, so laws are probably moot most of the time.

    31. GoNyGoNyGo

      It’s a sad state that our society is in that there’s a Wikipedia page listing HUNDREDS of professional sports players that have been convicted of crimes.

      I have no doubt that something awful happened to the accuser. I think that he’ll get away with something and I’ll keep rooting for the Knicks, but I won’t be cheering for Rose. I’ll be disappointed whenever I see a D-Rose shirt on a fan. There are so many other good guys. GoNYGoNYGo – despite Rose.

    32. wetbandit

      Yeah, I agree, the media and reporting culture supports a guilty until innocent practice, which is definitely wrong. There are false rape claims made all the time. I think just as much as the accuser should remain anonymous, the accused should as well. That said, yes, this is a circus, and we don’t need it right now on our team, but that’s from a purely selfish-fan point of view. I mean, he could be innocent, and all those ‘facts’ we’ve heard could be lies, until proven in court. Not picking a side, just pointing out the obvious.

    33. Cock Jowles, Betting the Under in 2017

      Presumption of innocence is a legal right designed to protect individuals from persecution. It has nothing to do with private citizens making personal judgments about facts published in a deposition. Likewise, whether Derrick Rose is found liable has nothing to do with me hearing him say, “What is consent?” and thinking that he might just be a bona-fide scumbag.

      O.J. Simpson was found not guilty, and therefore he should not be imprisoned based on that determination. Also, O.J. Simpson killed two people and I have every right to think he is a terrible person for doing so.

    34. Silky Johnson, Phil Jackson Hater of the Year

      False rape accusations don’t “happen all the time”–the percentage of rape claims in the US that are fabricated ranges somewhere between 2-8%, depending on who you talk to.

      Like Jowles said, innocent until proven guilty is a legal concept, not a maxim for private individuals. The probabilities are such that the person making the accusation of rape did indeed get raped, and you should–as a person, not as a judge–by default be on her side until proven otherwise. This false sense of balance only helps contribute to rape culture. Plus, the evidence against Rose is pretty good, even if it’s not watertight for legal purposes.

      Derrick Rose is a piece of shit. And talking about how people didn’t protest when Jason Kidd came to the team in order to act as if bringing a player under serious allegations of gang rape isn’t a big deal is a really, really lame defense that isn’t logically or morally sound. Phil can fuck right off, too.

    35. er

      Derrick Rose is a piece of shit. And talking about how people didn’t protest when Jason Kidd came to the team in order to act as if bringing a player under serious allegations of gang rape isn’t a big deal is a really, really lame defense that isn’t logically or morally sound. Phil can fuck right off, too.

      it wasn’t a defense that people were making. The discussion was revolving around if Rose was good would there be so much angst

    36. rama

      Thing is, even if Rose’s version of what happened is accurate, it is still utterly repugnant. I can’t even imagine rooting for him.

      Though it is absolutely true that what Kidd did – beat his wife – is almost as awful, and people sure did love them some Kidd when he was here. The fact that he is an all-time great DID make a difference, so don’t pretend otherwise.

    37. Cock Jowles, Betting the Under in 2017

      The discussion was revolving around if Rose was good would there be so much angst

      And I think it’s pretty clear that the same people who think he might be good this year are the same people giving him “the benefit of the doubt” in these proceedings.

    38. er

      And I think it’s pretty clear that the same people who think he might be good this year are the same people giving him “the benefit of the doubt” in these proceedings.

      That’s fair.

      I don’t give him the benefit of the doubt, I just don’t know what happened and I hate judging ppl off of unverifiable info.

    39. thenoblefacehumper

      I just don’t know what happened and I hate judging ppl off of unverifiable info.

      There are facts that both parties in the suit agree on. For many people, myself included, some of those facts are more than enough to not be able to root for Derrick Rose. YMMV.

    40. stratomatic

      False rape accusations don’t “happen all the time”–the percentage of rape claims in the US that are fabricated ranges somewhere between 2-8%, depending on who you talk to.

      This is a misleading stat in this particular case because most cases do not provide an opportunity for a woman to make millions of dollars in a settlement off a false claim of rape. Most accused rapists are not multi millionaires.

      (This is not a defense of Rose. This is a stats board so I thought I should add that note)

    41. d-mar

      I said it once before, but I’m sure a bunch of you are big NFL fans. Take a close look at the roster of your favorite team and make sure you stop rooting for all of the players with questionable morals and/or ones facing legal issues.

      I’m ok with it if you don’t want to root for Derrick Rose, but make sure you apply the same standard to all of your teams.

    42. stratomatic

      I’m a conservative. So I think some choices produce better results than others (I suspect there are probably more societal downsides to casual threesomes, foursomes etc… than committed monogamous relationships lol). But I’ll also a libertarian. If that’s his thing and the other people are consenting adults, so be it. So it comes down to consent. Based on what I read, Id be willing to bet she was is no condition to consent. So that adds a lot of fuel to the fire on a trade that I hated to begin with.

    43. thenoblefacehumper

      I’m ok with it if you don’t want to root for Derrick Rose, but make sure you apply the same standard to all of your teams.

      I can assure you that I’d have issues rooting for anyone who very well may have gang raped a woman. You have to admit this is a pretty damn unique case as far as ethics in sports fandom goes.

    44. iserp

      Like Jowles said, innocent until proven guilty is a legal concept, not a maxim for private individuals.

      This is utter nonsense, I consider completely unethical that people without access to evidence hold judgement on other people. Mob justice has been wrong more often than right, and there are many instances in which people found innocent are unfairly ostracized by the rest of society.

      I refrained from making this comment earlier, but I think this is going for too long. I feel that it is disrepectful (and if you wish, promotes ‘rape culture’) to make a rape case an entertainement show. I think it is fair to weigh in and take interest in the accusation. But all this back and forth mixed with basketball…. disregards the seriousness of a rape crime, and the difficult job of the judge.

    45. d-mar

      I can assure you that I’d have issues rooting for anyone who very well may have gang raped a woman. You have to admit this is a pretty damn unique case as far as ethics in sports fandom goes.

      I’m not sure where you’re drawing the line. Would you root for a player who has had multiple arrests? (27 current NFL players have that distinction) Or any of the 15 NFL players arrested for violence against women in the last 2 years?

      I’m not defending Rose’s behavior, just want everyone to be consistent in their fandom across the board.

    46. er

      You have to admit this is a pretty damn unique case as far as ethics in sports fandom goes.

      Not really…..off the top of my head I can think of Dante Stallworth who was convicted of vehicular homicide and then got another job in the league

    47. thenoblefacehumper

      Not really…..off the top of my head I can think of Dante Stallworth who was convicted of vehicular homicide and then got another job in the league

      1) I’ve never personally rooted for Dante Stallworth
      2) That’s not what he was convicted of

    48. er

      1) That’s not what you posted re your personal rooting interests. I was explaining how this sort of thing isn’t “unique” to Rose and Knick fans.

      2) DUI Manslaughter (thanks….much better)

    49. Silky Johnson, Phil Jackson Hater of the Year

      This is utter nonsense, I consider completely unethical that people without access to evidence hold judgement on other people. Mob justice has been wrong more often than right, and there are many instances in which people found innocent are unfairly ostracized by the rest of society.

      I’m not advocating mob justice. I’m advocating not immediately discrediting the accuser by pretending to be neutral, which is really picking the side of the possible perpetrator.

      Here’s my very simple justification for why I think Derrick Rose is a piece of shit, and why other people should think he is too:

      1. 2-8% of all rape accusations are false.
      2. While there may be additional motive to lie about rape in high profile cases such as this, it is not a significant amount, given that we don’t see a spate of false accusations of rape on tons of famous people all the time. And that any false rape accusation would presumably have motive.
      3. Given Rose’s comments and the evidence on hand, it is clear that he at minimum pressured someone into group sex who could only consent in the most limited sense of the term–probably not even that.
      4. Given that the probabilities are such that it’s likely the rape accuser is telling the truth, and there’s a lack of significant enough mitigating circumstances to render that plausibility judgment questionable, there’s no reason not to think Derrick Rose is a piece of shit.

      An even simpler argument for taking the side by default of those who claim they’ve been raped:
      1. 2-8% of all rape claims are false.
      2. It is likely that the person claiming they were raped was raped.

      Notice how this doesn’t say that we should burn down the alleged rapist’s house and draw and quarter him–that’s for the courts to decide. But it is well within a person’s rights to justifiably think Rose is a rapist and/or a piece of shit even though a legal decision hasn’t been rendered.

      The worst part of this whole thing Knicks-wise was that Phil laughed about the case when asked.

    50. er

      I’m not advocating mob justice. I’m advocating not immediately discrediting the accuser by pretending to be neutral, which is really picking the side of the possible perpetrator.

      ??

    51. Cock Jowles, Betting the Under in 2017

      I’m a conservative. So I think some choices produce better results than others (I suspect there are probably more societal downsides to casual threesomes, foursomes etc… than committed monogamous relationships lol).

      I suspect that your opinions on casual threesomes and foursomes have almost no basis in reality.

    52. Silky Johnson, Phil Jackson Hater of the Year

      ??

      “I’ve been raped”
      “yeah, well there’s an 8% chance you haven’t been, so I’m gonna withhold judgment”

      That’s equalizing one’s credence between the accused and the accuser when there’s no justifiable reason to do so. That’s taking a side.

      That’s not how people operate at all, and not how they should operate. Do you question a friend when they say their car has been stolen by quoting insurance fraud numbers?

      Human social relations are not the same thing as the standards of legal inquiry.

      This isn’t even saying anything beyond, you know, support a possible victim of rape by default. Seems pretty innocuous but apparently there’s some big controversy because women are lying evil succubi who want to take your money.

    53. stratomatic

      Again, that 8% stat is ridiculously wrong when it comes to false rape accusations against pro athletes or other wealthy people. Most accused rapists are not wealthy. Therefore there is almost zero incentive for a woman to make a false accusation other than revenge for cheating, a broken heart and things of that nature. But if she can potentially squeeze out a payoff or settlement of millions of dollars, it adds a huge new layer of incentive and probability.

    54. er

      I’ve been raped”
      “yeah, well there’s an 8% chance you haven’t been, so I’m gonna withhold judgment”

      That’s equalizing one’s credence between the accused and the accuser when there’s no justifiable reason to do so. That’s taking a side.

      Yeah but this isn’t an abstract. These are humans. So that 8% are people too.

      This isn’t even saying anything beyond, you know, support a possible victim of rape by default. Seems pretty innocuous but apparently there’s some big controversy because women are lying evil succubi who want to take your money.

      Yeah im all for support…but you are talking about condemnation based on accusations. That don’t jive with me. And HUMANS are capable of evil. Not just women. We have seen it throughout history. You are acting like it is impossible for the accuser to be fudging something. Idk….but I say I don’t know. You are judging in a weirdly naïve way.

    55. rama

      The point isn’t whether she was raped; the point is that the known facts are repugnant.

      Of course it matters whether she was in fact raped, but there are transcripts of conversations and records of texts that in themselves indict him morally, even if legally he is clear.

    56. er

      but there are transcripts of conversations and records of texts that in themselves indict him morally, even if legally he is clear.

      That’s true. But we only know about this because of the accusations. I’m willing to bet that there are numerous players in the league who are womanizers to crazy immoral degrees that we normal folks couldn’t even imagine.

    57. JK47

      Given Rose’s comments and the evidence on hand, it is clear that he at minimum pressured someone into group sex who could only consent in the most limited sense of the term–probably not even that.

      This is the crux of the problem right here. If you give Rose the benefit of the doubt and go with the most charitable interpretation of the evidence we’ve seen, the plaintiff finally agreed to group sex after expressing many times that she was uninterested, and that she chose to do so on a night when she was intoxicated. But not intoxicated to the point where she was unable to willfully give consent. It just seems unlikely to me that it went down like that. Maybe it did, but even with the most charitable interpretation that is some very sleazy and predatory behavior by Rose and his friends.

      I don’t like him. I didn’t like Derrick Rose before I became aware of this lawsuit and I sure as hell don’t like him any better now. He’s a washed up player with a way overinflated sense of his own greatness, he is dumb as a stump and he appears to lack a sense of ethics. It’ll be a happy day for me when this bum is not a Knick anymore.

    58. Frank

      I come to this board for the basketball, not for the legal talk, but I can say these things with pretty good conscience:

      1) doesn’t look good for Rose or the Knicks

      2) after reading all the texts / depositions, I literally can’t make any judgment as to who is telling the truth. The parties involved live in a completely different world than I do and I can’t possibly use my worldview to decide what happened there.

      3) both sets of lawyers have been hitting below the belt. slut-shaming is repugnant, but at the same time, Jane Doe’s lawyers have been using the anonymity law as both a shield (what it was created for) and as a sword. The media blitz she and her lawyers have been on seems, from my perspective, to be a clear effort to poison the well of potential jurors.

      4) sadly, it seems pretty darn likely that I will still cheer for Rose if he plays well. that’s the life of a Knicks addict.

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