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Friday, March 22, 2019

Knicks Morning News (2016.06.25)

  • [New York Times] Derrick Rose Expects to Be Appreciated ‘a Little Bit More’ as a Knick (Sat, 25 Jun 2016 01:31:17 GMT)
    The oft-injured former M.V.P. said he was grateful to his hometown Chicago Bulls for trading him and giving him the opportunity for “another start.”

  • [New York Post] Kevin Durant’s first blow to Knicks’ long-shot hopes (Sat, 25 Jun 2016 00:39:41 -0400)
    Despite the Derrick Rose trade, the Knicks haven't landed on Kevin Durant's short list. According to The Vertical, Durant's Roc Nation agency, based in Manhattan, is arranging meetings in New York starting July 1 with the Warriors, Celtics, Clippers, Heat and Spurs and Durant's own team, the Thunder. The long-shot Knicks would like a sit…

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    170 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2016.06.25)

    1. johnno

      If the Knicks strike out with the Durants and Whitesides of the world, what would everyone think of Biyombo and Lin? I’ve actually convinced myself that it makes sense.

    2. Z-man

      I’m sensing that some of the initially harsher critics of the Rose trade are modulating a bit.

      BC said: if we talk about who has the most information about Rose, obviously it is the Bulls, and they never would have traded him for this haul if they thought that there was a reasonable chance of Rose returning to form this season).”

      This is misleading. In fact, this trade could be compared to the Tyson Chandler trade, where we got back less than he was worth, but feared that he was on the decline and injury prone and didn’t want to risk getting nothing for his expiring if he got hurt in preseason or early in the season. Let’s not forget that Chandler woefully underperformed against the great Roy Hibbert just prior to the trade.

      Everyone, and I mean everyone, knows that Rose is at a very high risk of re-injury for a guy who’s a max-level player when healthy (maybe not deserving of the max on effeciency grounds, but would certainly command a max). I agree that if he wasn’t as high risk, CHI might have held out for a better haul, or not traded him at all. But to suggest that they know something that the Knicks don’t would be unfair, and total conjecture.

      And your use of the term “this haul” suggests that even you think that the Bulls didn’t get that much in return for him, which an important point! That’s what those like myself are saying…the “grade” for this deal is completely contingent upon whether Rose continues to rebound from his injuries and improves his play to above league average for a starting PG (fair tatget, right?) at a reasonable level of health (66 games again is a fair target, right?) under a new coach and with a new team playing new way.

    3. massive

      The Wizards are going to force the Knicks to pursue Hassan Whiteside and Bismack Biyombo. Maybe even Mozgov. Ain’t no way in hell Noah turns down $120M and an opportunity to play with John Wall.

    4. massive

      Oh man. Apparently the Warriors are targeting Whiteside. If they get Whiteside to GSW they’ll be the first team in NBA history with back to back 70 win seasons.

    5. Owen

      Not modulating. Trade is still just as dumb as it was before. Maybe it doesn’t screw us for a half decade like the Curry trade but it’s till asinine.

      And I don’t want to watch Derrick Rose play. Just aesthetics. It’s not an attractive brand of basketball.

    6. Z-man

      To be clear, I’m not saying that this is a deal I’m giddy about, only that it is one with not much downside compared to others that were being discussed. As iserp said, no one knows for sure whether Rose will stay healthy. He did, knee-wise, for an entire season, has had 2 1/2 months to rest and recover already, and is reported to be looking very good in workouts. What we do know for sure is that there are not many palatable PG options on the market for what we could offer. What would you prefer, signing the likes of Mike Conley to a long-term max deal? Rajon Rondo? Or banking on getting, say, Ricky Rubio for the same deal (anyone think Minny couldn’t get more?) Or just go with Calderon and Grant and maybe a draftee?

      Look, if Rose sucks or gets hurt, it will suck for us next year, but where will that leave us in June 2017? With a high draft pick, a ton of cap space, a budding star, Melo with only 1+1 left on his deal, and whatever else we sign on to with this year’s remaining cap space. Let’s see how Phil uses the rest of this off-season to fill out the team.

      Assuming Durant sez no, I for one would really like to see them bring back Jeremy Lin on a reasonable deal.

    7. Z-man

      Owen, I totally get not liking Rose’s game, even when healthy, or his personality. That doesn’t make the trade dumb or asinine, just one that you don’t like.

      “Maybe it doesn’t screw us for a half decade like the Curry trade but it’s till asinine.”

      That’s the point. It not only doesn’t screw us long term, it may actually help us in both the short and long run. It neither rules out a quasi-tank this year, or a signing of better players on better deals than the ones we gave up. To even bring this up in the context of the Curry deal is what’s asinine.

      A key player in this deal is Hornacek. He’s already been talking in ways that indicate that he values efficiency.

    8. DRed

      Let’s not forget that Chandler woefully underperformed against the great Roy Hibbert just prior to the trade.

      Everyone, and I mean everyone, knows that Rose is at a very high risk of re-injury for a guy who’s a max-level player when healthy (maybe not deserving of the max on effeciency grounds, but would certainly command a max).

      That was a full season before we traded Tyson. We traded him the year after he fractured his leg and missed a chunk of the Bargs season. Even then he was still pretty good before we traded him, unlike Rose who hasn’t played well for a full season since before Tyson Chandler was a Knick.

    9. massive

      The trade is dumb.
      The trade is dumb.
      The trade is dumb.
      The trade is dumb.

      I want as badly as anybody for Derrick Rose to get his FTA to elite levels (looking back at his numbers they were only around 7 per 36 in his prime, which isn’t really elite) and shoot 35% from deep. The truth is even if he defies all logic and becomes a .200 WS/WP guy over 2200 minutes and the Knicks win 55 games, his knees make it so that you can’t feel comfortable about offering him $200M over 5. The trade makes little sense because he will never make under $20M in New York. Not just that, but then you let go of your bag of assets for what’s essentially a powerball ticket when bare minimum you could have taken a safer bet. With all of that said, this is not the Nets’ trade for KG and Paul Pierce that sets your team back 5-7 years (Billy King should have been arrested for that deal). It’s not the TMac trade, or the Curry trade, or any dumbass trade that the Knicks have made in the past. They let go of 15 wins for -3 wins, but this move doesn’t damage us in the future.

      It’s always been what we do in free agency that was going to matter this summer. Our free agent signings will screw us. We can either 4 year max an injury prone 30 year old or we can sign a true franchise player, or we can spend money wisely, etc.

      Derrick Rose gets Phil Jackson off the hook. He doesn’t have to give out a max contract because he got his “superstar” already. We can sign Biyombo, Bazemore, Troy Daniels, trade for Jeremy Lamb, or whatever and nobody will be mad. Without Rose, he had to chase the overrated names like Conley. So I’m ultimately happy with the deal because I did not want to max anybody not named Durant or Whiteside.

    10. Kahnzy

      Let’s see how Phil uses the rest of this off-season to fill out the team.

      How many offseasons do some of you need to reach the obvious (to the rest of us) conclusion that Phil Jackson is bad at his job?

      “Let’s give him one more” has worn itself out.

    11. Z-man

      “Derrick Rose gets Phil Jackson off the hook. He doesn’t have to give out a max contract because he got his “superstar” already. We can sign Biyombo, Bazemore, Troy Daniels, trade for Jeremy Lamb, or whatever and nobody will be mad. Without Rose, he had to chase the overrated names like Conley. So I’m ultimately happy with the deal because I did not want to max anybody not named Durant or Whiteside.”

      Precisely, although I’d be ok maxing Batum as well.
      see how Phil uses the rest of this off-season to fill out the team.

      How many offseasons do some of you need to reach the obvious (to the rest of us) conclusion that Phil Jackson is bad at his job?

      Were you saying that after last off-season, when he drafted Porzingis (over the objections of many here) and Hernangomez, signed RoLo to a cap-friendly (but not bargain basement by any means) contract, and put a team on the floor that started out 21-21 until Melo got injured?

      Were you saying that when he hired Jeff Hornacek, after most geniuses here swore he was feigning interest and was dead-set on signing Rambis to a long-term head coaching deal?

      What a shame he missed out on LMA and Monroe. Right.
      What a shame he didn’t make the idiotic deals that the genius Donnie Walsh made time after time, often at the cost of any cap flexibility and future first round picks. Right.

    12. Silky Johnson, Phil Jackson Hater of the Year

      If the Knicks strike out with the Durants and Whitesides of the world, what would everyone think of Biyombo and Lin? I’ve actually convinced myself that it makes sense.

      I could get behind that, if we decided to blow our cap this year. Lin is more useful in an up tempo offensive, and he’s improved his defense substantially, I think. Biyombo is Biyombo. I think they stand to be some of the less overpaid players in this FA class, but maybe I’m wrong.

      Plus I would just love to have Lin at the Garden again. That’s never happening though, I think.

    13. JK47

      Phil has a lot of people fooled because he’s “Phil Jackson, Zen Master and 13-Ringzz Legend.” He would not get away with his poor results, inept player valuation and lack of long-term foresight without his celebrity cachet. Phil was a great coach and he knew how to squeeze a lot of production out of great players, and you can’t take that away from him. As a coach he was truly a legend. But being a GM is not really a similar job to being a coach. Trying to rebuild a franchise that has been moribund for a decade and a half, and is at the “bust” part of a boom-and-bust cycle is not the same thing as getting Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant to buy into an offensive system and work hard on defense.

      We’re watching the Peter Principle unfold in real time, and Phil has ascended to his own level of incompetence. He’s getting by on his name, and his name only. I mean, sure, let’s see what he does in the rest of the offseason. Maybe he does something to mitigate the circumstances of the bad, nonsensical Derrick Rose trade. He’s an idiosyncratic GM, with some wild hits and misses. Maybe he’s due for a hit. But I’m not real optimistic.

    14. Z-man

      I totally agree that signing Rose to a long-term deal, no matter how well he plays, would be Amare-level foolish. Just like I’m saying now that signing Mike Conley to a long-term deal is not a good idea. If that is your fear, then what has Phil done that indicates that he would do that? He has signed three guys to long-term deals as GM: Melo (fair value) RoLo (fair value) and O’Quinn (fair value.)

    15. massive

      You say that like Phil Jackson has been in office as long as stat geek legend Darryl Morey (who’s about to get fired in a season or two). This is his 3rd off season. The Knicks have sucked under Phil and there is no denying that. But he rebuilt the youth with Galloway, KP and Hernangomez while trying to remain competitive. He hasn’t done a good job at either, and you can’t deny that. However, when the prior regimes have stripped you of draft picks until this next year and the only draft pick you have is seen as a universal slam dunk, building the youth isn’t easy. Between, Galloway, Hernangomez, and KP, we can end up with anywhere between 10 and 22 WP between those three. The free agent center to be, Melo, and FA shooting guard to be could produce another 25 if they get 6,000-7,000 minutes. Or they could produce 15 wins altogether. If D Rose gets back to league average he could give us 5 or he could give us -3 again. The Knicks right now could fall anywhere between 22-52 wins next season. So both sides of the coin are right to hold their positions except for you guys who truly believe Rose is probable to be a top PG in this league. Somebody somewhere is ready to sell you a bridge.

      Free agency is what matters. Phil can hit a homerun and sign Whiteside while trading for Lamb (which should bring us 23 wins if we get those guys to play 4500+ minutes). Phil could bring in Noah and Bazemore, which could be worth 15-20 wins depending on health and MP. Phil could sign Eric Gordon and Dwight Howard which would doom us to 35 wins and POINTZZ. Or my favorite plan where Phil trades for 24 yo Lamb, signs 24 yo Biyombo, and gets good back ups for Rose and Melo like Sloan and Teletovic/Bogdanovic. Free agency will determine where we go.

    16. Kahnzy

      What a shame he missed out on LMA and Monroe. Right.
      What a shame he didn’t make the idiotic deals that the genius Donnie Walsh made time after time, often at the cost of any cap flexibility and future first round picks. Right.

      Just because he’s not the worst GM we’ve had over the past 15+ years doesn’t make him good, and that’s a really ridiculous argument to even try and make. And not making a mistake signing because he couldn’t get them also doesn’t make him good, it just means in his capacity as a bad GM his badness actually saved him from making a mistake or two.

    17. Z-man

      “Phil has a lot of people fooled because he’s “Phil Jackson, Zen Master and 13-Ringzz Legend.” He would not get away with his poor results, inept player valuation and lack of long-term foresight without his celebrity cachet.”

      This is far from the truth, at least as far as I’m concerned. In fact, I think the opposite is true. Phil haters expect things from him that they wouldn’t from other notable GMs. For example, Jowles gave Buford a total pass on signing LMA to a max deal, where he would have crucified Phil for doing the same thing. OTOH, people here gave Donnie Walsh a total pass on fucking up the team for a decade because of his prior rep as a GM, and blamed his failures on Dolan’s meddling. You can’t have it both ways. I don’t give a shit about Phil’s rings, only that the team moves to a better place in the long term, which is definitely happening.

      Put it like this: If Ujiri was hired as GM at the same point as Phil was, and you went into a coma on that day and reawakened today, you’d probably say “What, we have all of our future draft picks, a budding superstar, an intriguing new coach, max cap room for the next two years and no one signed to a deal past 2018-2019? Ujiri is a genius!”

    18. JK47

      I refuse to count “Phil hasn’t traded away any future draft picks” as something that counts as some huge positive. Any GM with anything other than rocks for brains would know that the Knicks should not be trading away future draft picks at this juncture. That’s like saying I’m really happy with my neighborhood supermarket because their air conditioning works properly. You don’t get bonus points for basic competence.

    19. massive

      Good or bad is meaningless to me. Darryl Morey is a “great GM” but how dominant has Houston been since his arrival? Or how about the great Sam Presti who traded for Randy Foye and Dion Waiters or who traded James Harden so he could pay Kendrick Perkins? Or the immortal Danny Ainge who pissed an 8 pick draft away? Remember how terrible Joe Dumars was? It’s about luck. Phil screwed up his 2015 plan and that just so happened to be the year the Knicks had a draft pick which was also a legendary draft class and he got Porzingis and not Hezonja or Okafor (the guys taken before and after KP). Luck matters in this sport. I don’t care if Phil is an idiot as long as he’s not an idiot who makes Ujiri’s job harder when he eventually signs on to become our president of basketball operations and delivers us a championship in 2020; 50 years after we first won in 1970.

    20. Zanzibar

      What would you prefer, signing the likes of Mike Conley to a long-term max deal? Rajon Rondo? Or banking on getting, say, Ricky Rubio for the same deal (anyone think Minny couldn’t get more?) Or just go with Calderon and Grant and maybe a draftee?

      The last one. Grant played as an average + starter in the last 6 games when he actually started and played starter minutes. And he didn’t have KP at all during that stretch and Melo only part-time. If it turns out he’s not a starter, Westbrook/CP3/Holiday/Teague and others are out there in free agency in 2017. We could also mitigate the risk of Grant’s performance by offering Jennings or Augustin a large 1 year deal.

    21. Cock Jowles, Top Predictor of Knicks Future Suckage

      whether Rose continues to rebound from his injuries and improves his play to above league average for a starting PG (fair tatget, right?)

      That is a long way off from where he was last season. We really are talking about the 2nd-worst guard in the whole league, especially since he chucked so much. There were plenty of people who shot as terribly as he did, but not many who combined his volume with his inability to convert.

      I mean, this is not unfactorial. This is real. He was fucking terrible. Not bad, but league-worst.

    22. Cock Jowles, Top Predictor of Knicks Future Suckage

      Good or bad is meaningless to me. Darryl Morey is a “great GM” but how dominant has Houston been since his arrival?

      The Rockets have had a positive SRS in 8 of 9 seasons that Morey has been GM, including four consecutive playoff berths and a WCF loss to a dominant champion (#2/#1 in Ortg/Drtg). The Knicks have just four playoff appearances since the turn of the century.

      Miami was dominant because they exist in a great-place-to-be-wealthy city with no sales tax and managed to persuade two superstars and a tall guy who looks like a velociraptor to coexist for four years, all this during a fortuitous moment when they had 3 max slots and 3 max players willing to take below-market contracts to play together. Cleveland had and has been dominant because they were gifted a hometown hero alien basketball god who doesn’t get injured. Golden State has been dominant because they drafted several players that took unforeseeable meteoric rises to superstardom. The Spurs have been dominant because they are good at everything basketball. They are the outlier.

      Staying competitive year after year is hard in the NBA. Staying in the playoff hunt year after year is a sign that you are doing your job well. If we measure success by Finals appearances and top-playoff-seeding only, the league has a failure rate of about 94%. That’s an unfair measure for a zero-sum market (wins) whereby the only way to improve your position is by stealing market share from your competitors. Considering that the Lakers and Spurs have 10 of the 16 championships since 2000, I’d say that using the Finals as a barometer for success is pretty dumb unless you want to call everyone losers.

      I would be fucking thrilled to have someone as undominant as Morey, because it would mean that we weren’t watching an average of 33 wins over the last fifteen seasons.

    23. Z-man

      Jowles, you are dodging the question. If he plays above league average for a starting PG, does that change your assessment of this deal?

      Here is a list of the guards who played 1500+ minutes, averaged at least 5 assists per game, and had a ws48 of at least .100 last year.

      http://bkref.com/tiny/lS84u

      For all the hype about tons of great PGs out there, this list is only 12 players long, if you take Harden out. If Rose can meet this very low bar, does that make this a reasonable deal?

    24. JK47

      For all the hype about tons of great PGs out there, this list is only 12 players long, if you take Harden out. If Rose can meet this very low bar, does that make this a reasonable deal?

      Not really, because Rose is either a one-and-done player here, or he’s signed to an extension, which is a bad idea because of his injury history. Let’s say he squeaks out a .100 WS48 season– which by the way, would be magnitudes above the .017 WS48 he has amassed in the 4,000 minutes since his first knee injury– I mean, so what? One season of .100 WS48 basketball, freakin’ whoop-dee-doo. And then the contract runs out. Why bother? Why not convert the RoLo and Grant assets into something with longer than a one-year shelf life?

    25. Z-man

      https://youtu.be/RnJcpg1zsE0

      I am fully aware that highlight reels are fool’s gold. But just in terms of recovery from knee injury in and of itself, this is pretty telling, as all highlights are from last year. Pay special attention to the last game vs. Knicks and our three-headed defensive monster of Calderon, Grant, and Afflalo.

    26. Zanzibar

      Z-Man Rose looked great! He’s got Jerian Grant speed! Maybe he even could get his FTr to Grant’s level.

    27. ClashFan

      Z-man, we already knew that Calderon and Afflalo were bad defenders. I mean, Calderon is epic-like bad, so I’m glad he’s gone. Rose does seem to have gotten much of his explosiveness back, but I still cringe every time I see him shoot a jump shot. For each jump shot make we see in the video, there are probably 2 misses.

      But as I said earlier, the trade is not really about this year. If he is good, that’s a bit of a happy coincidence.

      The free agents that Phil signs will give us a better read on what is going on here. Durant is not coming. Phil seems borderline obsessed with cap space, and the trade of Lopez might be a sign that “small ball” is here now with KP moving to C. I’m not sure I like that, but if he signs a guy like Pachulia to a short deal to share time with KP for a year or two, that’ll be confirmed.

      One good point someone earlier made is that Phil has now acquired his “star” this offseason and can now just make smart FA signings. He’s already appeased Dolan. I do seem to recall that that was a criticism of his last offseason (no star, no sizzle).

      Maybe. I still don’t like the trade b/c it appears that the Knicks are just going around in circles rather than slowly building. But yeah, it is not horrible b/c the worst case is the team stinks, gets a high lottery pick for 2017 with lots of cap space.

    28. Z-man

      Welp, I know Grant is bound for the HOF, so forgive me for even using his name in the same sentence with Rose.

    29. ClashFan

      @29
      I like both Grant and Lopez and wish that Phil had kept them. But yeah, some of us are way overvaluing them. I really do wish we’d kept Grant, though. I’m not bullish on Galloway at all as a backup for Rose who might end up having to play a lot.

      Again, though, we’ll see what happens in free agency.

    30. Z-man

      @28, this is reasoned, fair criticism. I do think Phil expect Rose to be at least “good”. Maybe that’s foolish, maybe not. We’ll see,

      Rose was never a good shooter, even in his best years. He needs to adapt his game, take less shots, get to the line more, and play better defense, i.e. become more Rondo-like, if he’s going to be a plus player. It’s a good situation for him, muted expectations, a city hungry for good PG play, other offensive options outside of his space. All I’m saying is keep the jury out and let’s see what kind of team Phil builds with the gazillion open roster spots and oodles of cap space. It’s too early to definitively judge this trade because of the jettison button that is attached to it being only a 1-year commitment with hardly any future ramifications…unless you think Grant is a star in the making. RoLo’s production can be replaced on the cheap. What did the Heat pay for Birdman? What did the Raptors pay for Biyombo? What did the Clips pay for Cole? These kind of guys are more readily available than equivalent PGs.

    31. Frank

      Grant played as an average + starter in the last 6 games when he actually started and played starter minutes.

      lololol.
      Those 6 games that Grant played — that’s supposed to cancel out the rest of the season in which he pretty much sucked.

      I like Grant, and still think this is a ridiculous argument. Mardy Collins was awesome for those last six games of 2007 also.

      If it turns out he’s not a starter, Westbrook/CP3/Holiday/Teague and others are out there in free agency in 2017. We could also mitigate the risk of Grant’s performance by offering Jennings or Augustin a large 1 year deal.

      Let me try this a slightly different way

      If it turns out [Rose doesn’t play well], Westbrook/CP3/Holiday/Teague and others are out there in free agency in 2017. We could also mitigate the risk of [Rose]’s performance by offering Jennings or Augustin a large 1 year deal.

    32. Cock Jowles, Top Predictor of Knicks Future Suckage

      If he plays above league average for a starting PG, does that change your assessment of this deal?

      Of course it does. I try to stay objective about these things, unlike many of the posters here. Asking Derrick Rose to become an average player after 3500+ minutes of terrible, league-worst play is not a “fair” target in my mind.

      Furthermore, they still gave up an above-average C on a cap-friendly deal for a player who, if he plays at even an average level, will ask for $35.6M/year for the right to be our next overrated volume scorer.

      Or worse: that he scores a lot of points at .48 TS% and gets the mega-max anyway, which is very possible with this franchise.

      Edit: JK47 already said all of this. We’re in agreement.

    33. ClashFan

      @31 Yeah, I’ve already said I give a D to this trade. However, Phil’s overall offseason grade is still I. I’ll give him a B for Hornacek (and that move is WAY more important than the trade) and a D for this trade.

      The draft is pretty much moot for the Knicks. If Hernangomez comes over, that’s like the Knicks had a mid-first this year.

      Free agency will be huge, of course.

      BTW, Rose is not going to change. He’s stubborn and vain. It will at least be entertaining to see both he and Melo wanting to go hero ball at the end of games! Like watching a dark comedy…
      :-)

    34. Frank

      Here’s a point of reference on Grant’s chances of becoming a good player.

      Jerian, for the year, had a TS of 47.9 and a WS/48 of 0.030.

      the list of guards in the last 20 years who in the age 22-23 rookie year posted a TS of <50 and a WS/48<0.035 is 126 players long.

      The BEST players on that list are Jamaal Tinsley, Michael Carter Williams, Eddie House, JJ Barea, Goran Dragic, Earl Boykins, Ish Smith, Jacque Vaughan, Will Barton, and Antonio Daniels.

      So out of the entire last 20 years, literally 1 player who met these characteristics actually went on to become a significant NBA player (Dragic).

      The 10 years before that, it's a little better. You have guys like Allan Houston (!), Lindsey Hunter, Jim Jackson, Mookie Blaylock out of the 88 players that met those characteristics from 1987-1996.

      So — chances are/were very small he's going to be anything but a backup. He seems like a good guy and I wish the best for him, but it's not a huge loss.

    35. Frank

      Furthermore, they still gave up an above-average C on a cap-friendly deal for a player who, if he plays at even an average level, will ask for $35.6M/year for the right to be our next overrated volume scorer.

      Said perfectly.

      He will ask for the right.
      We can always say no.

      Everyone acts like it’s a MUST that he gets a MAX contract. It’s not a must.

      Let’s say for argument’s sake he plays like 90% of the player he used to be. Say 22ppg, 7 assists, TS 54, WS/48 0.150. Because of his injury history I would bet a LOT that he still won’t get maxed. And even if he does, there would probably be significnat protections re: guaranteed $ and years.

      You can say whatever you want about Phil and the job he’s done. Now that he’s hired Hornacek and has loosened the reins on the triangle, my major beef with him is gone. He’s had problems with asset valuation in trades — that’s fair to say too. But he has not given out ridiculous contracts in FA. Even Melo’s contract will look cheap next year. The NTC is unfortunate,yes.

    36. Cock Jowles, Top Predictor of Knicks Future Suckage

      @34

      I’ll give it a D if the Knicks can replace Lopez’s production. Otherwise it’s an F+ only because Bargnani and Curry set the bar so very low for a true F. The trade immediately makes the team worse unless Rose becomes MVP-year Rose again, which wasn’t very good in the first place.

      The Knicks traded their undisputed best player in 2015-16 for Derrick Rose’s Burning Viking Funereal Pyre. The only way it could have been worse is if the Knicks had given up draft assets. Grant sucked (and had an identical TS% as Derrick Rose this year) so I really don’t care about that beyond his “potential” as a sophomore player, which is probably 9th-or-10th-man on an 8-seed. Norris Cole-ish, if Norris Cole didn’t get to play next to the Basketball Alien God for four years.

      As it stands, this trade makes it more likely that the Knicks offer him a contract next year regardless of his production. That’s a terrifying prospect.

    37. ClashFan

      @35
      Fair point, but Grant got jerked around a lot. He’d come into a game, make a mistake, and get yanked immediately. That happened a lot until very late in the season and can’t be good for his stats.

      OTOH, those last 6 games were pretty much “garbage time” for a team playing out the string. So, they don’t matter much.

      Still, nice guy, continuity, etc. I wish he was not in the deal.

    38. Cock Jowles, Top Predictor of Knicks Future Suckage

      But he has not given out ridiculous contracts in FA. Even Melo’s contract will look cheap next year. The NTC is unfortunate,yes.

      How can you say “he has not given out ridiculous contracts” and then bring up the no-trade clause? Do I have to remind you that Carmelo Anthony is the only player in the NBA with a no-trade clause?

      Let me repeat that just in case it slips past you:

      Carmelo Anthony is the only player in the NBA with a no-trade clause.

    39. JK47

      Never mind the last six games.

      In his last 25 games of the season, Grant put up a .548 TS%, with a .510 eFG%. He showed real improvement down the stretch.

      There was a lot of hoo-hah about how Derrick Rose finished the season strong, but in his last 25 games he had a .508 TS% and a .477 eFG%.

      Grant, the young player, was better down the stretch than the decorated veteran who was supposedly rounding into form.

    40. ClashFan

      The NTC is bad. I didn’t like the Melo resigning at the time, but perhaps Phil has learned from that. He seems to have learned from earlier rigidity to the triangle.

      Perhaps he’s learned from a bad first coaching hire.

      Lots of ifs/perhapses, I know.

      Btw, who is this “undisputed best player” that the Knicks traded? Lopez? Calderon? Do you mean “most efficient” player?

    41. Zanzibar

      @Frank What is “ridiculous” is you saying Grant’s “ceiling” is an OK backup. He may end up that but to say that is his ceiling makes no sense. Grant was not playing in a PnR offense. Of course that’s gonna affect the productivity of a top 5 college PnR guard. And yeah, forgive me for saying maybe the most recent sample we have is important for projecting at a position with a steep curve for a rookie. It may be a small sample but it is the ONLY sample where he started and played starter minutes and knew he wouldn’t be yanked if he made a mistake. Lillard improved significantly in his rookie year after the break. And you and Z-man have to stop with this nonsense Lopez is some mediocre, average easily replaceable player. And you both have to stop dodging the most important question: Under what circumstances would you be willing to give Rose a large 4 or 5 year deal (because that’s what he’s gonna want)? Where is the reward from this trade? We gave up 2 pieces with some value (which we could dispute) for ZERO reward.

    42. massive

      As of today, Kevin Durant has not scheduled a meeting with the Knicks. He does have a meeting scheduled with the Celtics, though.

      I thought I hated Paul Pierce, but I am more than ready to hate Kevin Durant for the rest of my life if that kid haircut having bastard signs with the Celtics.

    43. Z-man

      But the clause is only relevant if Phil actually wants to trade him, which he has shown no inclination to do.

      “Of course it does. I try to stay objective about these things, unlike many of the posters here. Asking Derrick Rose to become an average player after 3500+ minutes of terrible, league-worst play is not a “fair” target in my mind.”

      I think we are not on the same page with the word “fair”. You are saying that it’s not “fair” to expect improvement from Rose. I’m asking whether if he actually improves to a top-10-12 starting PG, would you consider this deal a positive one in retrospect?

      If the answer is “no, because it increases the chances that we sign him to a long-term max deal,” that’s not fair. How can you possibly criticize a deal for based on a purely hypothetical future transaction that you have absolutely no evidence for, other than your own jaded outlook?

    44. ClashFan

      @44, c’mon! I don’t like the trade, but it is hyperbole to say ZERO reward.

      Cap space for 2017. Unless the Knicks fudge this up, they can sign a max guy next year.

      A 2nd round pick in what is supposed to be a good, deep draft.

      Justin Holiday might be a solid rotation guy. Supposedly he can play D and shoot a bit.

      Again, I don’t like the trade, but I really hoped that the hyperbole of the last couple of days had toned down.

    45. Frank

      Under what circumstances would you be willing to give Rose a large 4 or 5 year deal (because that’s what he’s gonna want)?

      I would not max Rose out no matter what. The injury risk is too high.
      But let’s say he plays 75 games with no issues with either knee. He scores 22/game, 7 assists, average TS, and at least tries on defense. He gets along with everyone. The team makes it to the playoffs but loses in a tough 1st round matchup or in any kind of 2nd round matchup.

      I renounce his Bird Rights.
      I try to get Steph, Russ, CP3, etc. to come. If they say no, then I look at the market. If Rose is the best value out there, then I offer him at most a 3 year deal worth, say, $75MM with some degree of injury protection. I would definitely not give him 4 or 5 years or a max contract. Or any contract beyond 1-2 years that doesn’t have significant injury protections.

      If he misses 25 games due to whatever, then I probably just move on period.

    46. Zanzibar

      @44, c’mon! I don’t like the trade, but it is hyperbole to say ZERO reward. Cap space for 2017.

      Are you saying that no team would take Lopez into their cap for free (technically a protected 2nd round pick) next summer when the cap will jump again? This whole free cap argument is one huge canard.

    47. Cock Jowles, Top Predictor of Knicks Future Suckage

      How can you possibly criticize a deal for based on a purely hypothetical future transaction that you have absolutely no evidence for, other than your own jaded outlook?

      The irony is so thick that I can’t breathe through the laughter. We’re talking pure hypotheticals with no evidence, so how about this one:

      “What if Derrick Rose overcomes like a dozen leg surgeries and plays well again?” How about that?

    48. Cock Jowles, Top Predictor of Knicks Future Suckage

      If Rose is the best value out there, then I offer him at most a 3 year deal worth, say, $75MM with some degree of injury protection.

      You would give a guy with those stats and that injury history a $25M AAV deal? What the hell?

    49. JK47

      If the upside of the trade is “cap space in 2017″ well then that’s not much fucking upside. I refuse to believe there was no better, more sensible way to move Robin Lopez’ reasonable contract than to trade it for the last contract year of one of the worst players in the NBA last season, a player who has been injured and/or ineffective for 4 1/2 seasons now. If Phil was hell bent on 2017 cap space there had to have been ways to get it that involved bringing back future draft picks and/or young players on decent contracts who fit into the team’s long-range goals.

      You have to squint really really really hard to see upside on this trade.

    50. Z-man

      And you both have to stop dodging the most important question: Under what circumstances would you be willing to give Rose a large 4 or 5 year deal (because that’s what he’s gonna want)? Where is the reward from this trade? We gave up 2 pieces with some value (which we could dispute) for ZERO reward.

      Question #1: my answer: Under no circumstances. I’ve already said that. But that doesn’t change my opinion on the deal (meh, at worst a lateral move, at best, some upside.)

      Question#2: the rewards are: a) getting the total stiff Calderon off the roster (he is the worst defensive guard in the league, probably by far.) b) getting a 2nd round pick; c) giving us tier 1 max cap room for a much better FA class in 2017, which wasn’t the case with RoLo’s deal on the roster. and d) an outside chance of having a top 10 PG on the team for the first time since, what, Clyde?

    51. lavor postell

      Personally I think they could replace Lopez fairly easily with a reasonable facsimile in Mahinmi for a cheaper price even in this summer. Whether they do or not is a separate issue.

      I’d prefer they just give Noah a lot of money for a 1+1 and we go full balls to the wall and maybe something similar for an SG like Courtney Lee is possible. That team in some bizarro world of low probability outcomes could make some noise in the East and in the real world of high probablity outcomes likely sucks and gets you a high draft pick. It would also satisfy the starfucking owner and part of the fan base as well as the risk management experts and asset maximization specialist portion of the fan base. Boom or bust for a year is fine by me as we currently stand.

      Also I think Phil is neither great or bad as a GM. So far he’s been overall meh without doing long term harmful dumb shit. If he leaves after this season I won’t be upset and I’d remember him as a guy that wasn’t wholly incompetent and thoroughly mediocre which is an improvement over what we’ve had amazingly.

    52. Z-man

      “What if Derrick Rose overcomes like a dozen leg surgeries and plays well again?” How about that?

      Not the same thing. Rose was reasonably healthy last year, as the video clip showed. He played 66 games and 2000+ minutes. There is evidence for that. We’re not talking about Kelenna Azubuike here.

      Another fact: Derrick Rose was, at worst, one of the top 5 PGs in the league prior to injury. He is also 27 years old. This is not Baron Davis we’re talking about.

      His most glaring area of weakness is perimeter shooting. I agree that that won’t magically get better. But physically, his recent trend is towards increasing health, not re-injury or permanent disability. So if you’re saying that he was always a terrible shooter and that’s compounded by the effects of injury, that’s fair. But you can’t simply ignore the health trend and assume that his production topped out at last year’s level.

    53. Jack Bauer

      Let’s look at the positives:

      No more debating whether the Knicks should max out Mike Conley

      We don’t have to watch the awful backcourt of Calderon & Afflalo being trotted out night after night

      No more talk about the first round draft picks and/or good players that the Knicks could get by trading Rolo.

      See , the glass is half full!

      Let’s face it , the Knicks are not getting Durant and it looks more and more like they aren’t getting Noah, Whiteside, Fournier, etc.. It will be just like last year when they had to settle for 2nd and 3rd tier free agents. Get used to it. Having cap space to sign great or even good players isn’t a guarantee those players will sign. That’s why clearing massive amounts of cap space is usually fools gold. We’ll see….

    54. MamaThereGoesThatMan

      What if this is the season of the intentional tank? You get Rose coming off the books after this year. Then that summer you have Melo+KP+another high draft pick. Maybe then you can convince two max level people to come to the Knicks that summer to join that core (would they have the cap room for that?). Then summer 2019 Melo comes off the books and you go fill out the roster.

    55. Cock Jowles, Top Predictor of Knicks Future Suckage

      But you can’t simply ignore the health trend and assume that his production topped out at last year’s level.

      In 2014-15 he had a TS% of 49.3. His TS last year was 47.9%. As his health trends upward, does his scoring trend downward? That seems a little weird, huh?

    56. massive

      If the Knicks grab Ian Mahinmi for less money than they paid RoLo then we came out on top. Mahinmi is better than RoLo by most metrics out there.

      The Knicks fucked up by trading RoLo, Grant, and Calderon. Okay. I’m honestly tired of talking about that. The Derrick Rose deal was a bad trade. Even if the 2nd round pick we select turns into a HOFer it was a shitty risk to take and you lose more than you win when you make deals like the one we made.

      We, the people in support of the Derrick Rose trade, understand that. We also believe that the trade is not the end of the world, either, and that it cannot be compared to any of the disastrous deals the Knicks have made in past like the T Mac deal, the Melo deal, or the Marbury deal. The Rose trade was bad. Cool. But we still have free agency to go so we can still build a competitive team. Is that not possible? You don’t have to believe in Phil to acknowledge that it will be pretty difficult for the Knicks to not improve being that literally every big available put up better numbers than RoLo and most wings available put up better numbers than Afflalo.

      Fuck Derrick Rose, man. I just want to see who we add in the next few weeks.

    57. Cock Jowles, Top Predictor of Knicks Future Suckage

      I’m honestly tired of talking about that. The Derrick Rose deal was a bad trade.

      I’m tired of talking about it too. Why? Because there are people on this board who think it has potential to be a good thing.

      “Real intriguing, that Rose. A very intriguing possibility for the Knicks. Intrigue abounds. His return to athletic form is just full of intrigue.”

    58. DRed

      Giving up Grant is bad not because he’s going to turn into Goran Dragic. You’re hoping he maybe turns into Ray Felton. On a rookie deal that’s great. If not, well try another route. Either way, we’re going to need a new PG next year and now we have one fewer option.

    59. Cock Jowles, Top Predictor of Knicks Future Suckage

      How bad is this Knicks team that I miss Ray Felton?

    60. Z-man

      TS% is important but never a strength for Rose even before the injury. He was able to compensate for it by being good at other things, like getting to the line (his FTr last year was half of what it was during his MVP year and significantly lower than it was in 2014-15) and passing (his assist rate was at a career low last year even though his usage was down.) It is likely that he was reluctant to go as hard to the rim last year because his focus was on getting through the season without injury problems as a means of scoring in his upcoming free agency. Remember, he tore his right meniscus in Feb 2015 and probably wanted to avoid that last year. Now he has no choice but to risk injury and go balls out, since he will not get a max deal with mediocre play. The combination of the contract year, improving health and a better situation are all in the Knicks’ favor for this year. But I totally agree that no matter how he plays, can’t sign him to a max deal.

      If he actually does play well, one intriguing option would be to trade him pre-deadline to a contending team with an injured PG for assets. Would you agree that if he plays well, he could be as much of a trade deadline asset as, say, RoLo?

    61. BigBlueAL

      KD has to stay with OKC right?? That team next season with Oladipo is scary athletically and they were pretty damn athletic already. Golden St with KD would be insane too but I would love to see OKC next season with KD and their new additions.

    62. Cock Jowles, Top Predictor of Knicks Future Suckage

      Would you agree that if he plays well, he could be as much of a trade deadline asset as, say, RoLo?

      Depends on how many Conference-Finals-contender playoff teams looking to add reliable talent are managed by incompetent, risk-ignorant morons.

      There is no sane person employed by an NBA team who would gamble on Rose’s injury risk — independent of his awful, horrible, league-worst play.

      There really is no feasible explanation for optimism on this trade other than “hey, didn’t trade another 1st rounder.”

    63. Z-man

      How bad is this Knicks team that I miss Ray Felton?

      What team? The team with $35 mill in cap space and 10 open roster spots? Right now, the team is Melo, Rose, Zinger and O’Quinn. Everyone else is either on a cap hold or a minimum deal.

      Let’s see…add RoLo, Calderon and Grant to the mix and subtract Rose, Holiday and a #2 pick for 2017. Now we’re talking!! What a great team!!!

    64. Cock Jowles, Top Predictor of Knicks Future Suckage

      KD has to stay with OKC right?? That team next season with Oladipo is scary athletically and they were pretty damn athletic already. Golden St with KD would be insane too but I would love to see OKC next season with KD and their new additions.

      OKC is probably still a 55-58 win team if all else stays the same, but the Warriors could win another 70 if Durant teams up and they cut their dead weight. He’s got the ability to go to the three best teams in the West. If he cares about winning for the rest of his career, the Spurs are the clear choice. If he wants to create an offensive supernova that could further break the game of NBA basketball, you go Dubs. If he wants to carry a team on his back for another deep playoff run to be defeated by one of the other two teams, you stay Thunder.

    65. GoldClub

      Lavor — great post. Offering a 1+1 to someone who might suck for the second year (Noah, Howard) makes me nervous. Are straight 1 year contracts allowed under the CBA? I have no problem offering a ridiculous 1 year contract this year as long as we have max cap space next year for two max guys. For me success this FA period is very simple. Sign Batum, Whiteside (or Durant or Lebron) to a max deal, or otherwise do not commit to anything beyond this year that would limit is from being a 2x Max destination. As log as we have those 2x Max slots, we will be an attractive option for a super team.

      There is a lot of speculation about Phil doing dumb shit, but I think a lot of that may be based on misinformation deliberately spread by Phil. I have exactly zero confidence in an assessment of whether Phil is a moron or an expert poker player. The evidence suggests either could be true, we have no way of knowing until he proves one side of the debate with either a truly enlightened or truely damming move. This trade is neither. The Melo contract is neither (although there is plenty of speculation that he didn’t need to give the NTC or the +1’s to AA and Dwill, we just don’t know). If he signs fucking Noah or Dwight to a long term deal we will know. For all we know, all the broadcasting of love for Oakafor was just misinformation to throw the Sixers off the scent of KP — if that was the case, sheer genius. If he lands the big fish, we will also know…as they say, we live in interesting times.

    66. Z-man

      The question was if rose plays well, would someone who’s starting PG got injured throw in an asset to take on a half-year of his contract (is that a high risk?) to get them through the season and playoffs? Obviously if he sucks, no one would want him.

    67. Cock Jowles, Top Predictor of Knicks Future Suckage

      The question was if rose plays well, would someone who’s starting PG got injured throw in an asset to take on a half-year of his contract (is that a high risk?) to get them through the season and playoffs? Obviously if he sucks, no one would want him.

      How many more caveats do you wanna throw into this nonsense justification hypothetical?

    68. Brian Cronin

      Again, if Jackson traded for Rose because he thinks Rose will be good next year, that’s an awful trade. If he traded for Rose just to clear some salary for 2017 while viewing Rose as a lottery ticket, then that’s dumb, but not as dumb (it’s still spending $50 for a $1 lottery ticket).

      So either way, it’s a bad trade, but one approach is a lot scarier about Jackson’s valuation skills than the other. Hopefully it’s all about the cap room (still a bad trade even if it is just about the cap room, but not as bad). We’ll see very soon by who the Knicks sign in free agency.

    69. Z-man

      The only way to truly judge transactions is in hindsight. So I ask: at what level of production for Rose would you look back and say this was a good deal? For example, in hindsight, Derrick William’s 1+1 deal was a good deal b/c he played well enough to justify the salary and not be upset if he opted in, and well enough that he opted out but not well enough to be upset that he opted out. What would make you look back on this deal and say, well I hated it at the time but it worked out about as well as it could have…?

    70. Brian Cronin

      That is pretty much the exact opposite of how you should judge transactions. Like spending $50 on a $1 lottery ticket, but the ticket turns out to be worth $1000. It’s still a bad idea to spend $49 over face value. That it worked out is not a compliment to your decision-making. It’s why I don’t knock Phil too much for the Chandler trade. Not a good trade, but it didn’t seem likely at the time that Chandler would have such a resurgence in Dallas and that Calderon would be so bad here (and that the Knicks would be so bad overall that picking up Calderon was such a waste).

    71. max fisher-cohen

      @Z-Man

      SportsVU defensive stats for Calderon last year: players average +3.1% FG%

      And for Rose during his supposed post all star break resurgence: players average +5.6 FG%

      He was better on the season as a whole though: +0.4%

      If you think post ASB Rose is the real Rose, his tracking stats call him a worse defender than Calderon.

      People keep building these other questions into the Rose trade:

      1) Should we trade Robin Lopez so as to open up more 2017 cap space?

      2) Should we try to upgrade from Calderon?

      Let’s say the right answer to both of those is yes. You’re still left with the question people keep dodging, which is “What’s the best way to accomplish these goals and do any of the options to reach them help us more than they hurt?” I might need a new pair of shoes and socks, but if I pay $100 for a pair of 10 year old Starburys and your dirty Wal-Mart socks, I’ve made a bad choice.

    72. airkent

      Man for people worried about Maxing Rose don’t worry after the CBA expires in 2017 there will be an amnesty provision again ;)

    73. Cock Jowles, Top Predictor of Knicks Future Suckage

      SportsVU defensive stats for Calderon last year: players average +3.1% FG%

      DID YOU EVEN WATCH THE GAMES

    74. Boriqua3

      Is it odd to want to add Bismack Biyombo simply because his name is fun to say (like Mbah E’muteh)? How bout him and Derozan? Would that make the Knicks rootable again?

    75. Frank

      the tracking stats are interesting but not that useful.

      it’s easy to play defense when you have KP and RoLo right behind you.

      It’s harder to play defense when it’s Pau Gasol and Mirotic behind you.

      Before Noah went down (late december), his tracking stats showed a -2.2 FG% overall.

      That said – KC Johnson (from Chicago tribune, covers the Bulls and has known Rose since high school) said that Rose/Pau guarding a PNR was awful last year. That’s on both players, and Pau basically has feet of stone at this point of his career. But I’m sure Rose wasn’t amazing – he doesn’t have a history of being a great defender.

      (He also said that he really thinks that the change of scenery will really help Rose, and that his explosiveness is coming back)

    76. Grocer

      @58 I hope so. Best case scenario for the Knicks post Rose trade is tanking for the picks, trying out young talent. Worst case is signing some other old declining FA to an untradeable contract and dooming us to another 4 years of mediocrity. I hope we’re tanking.

    77. Frank

      That is pretty much the exact opposite of how you should judge transactions. Like spending $50 on a $1 lottery ticket, but the ticket turns out to be worth $1000. It’s still a bad idea to spend $49 over face value.

      I don’t think this is a good analogy, or at least it’s not good analysis.

      This is more like looking at pot odds if you’re playing poker. Risk vs. payoff.

      Or if we’re talking lottery – Paying $1 for a $1MM lottery ticket is better than paying $1 for a $500K jackpot. Similarly, paying $50 for a shot at MVP-level Derrick Rose is way better than paying $1 for a shot at, say, Shane Larkin.

    78. Z-man

      “That is pretty much the exact opposite of how you should judge transactions. Like spending $50 on a $1 lottery ticket, but the ticket turns out to be worth $1000. It’s still a bad idea to spend $49 over face value. That it worked out is not a compliment to your decision-making.”

      I agree that when there is broad consensus and clear odds, you can use that logic. But in this case there is neither. There is no way to gauge this trade based on what we could have gotten for RoLo, or how Grant is going to develop, or on how well Rose will respond to a contract year and another long off-season of rehab work and a more favorable situation given his current level of health. There is no way to know whether we could have gotten Rose for less, or whether we could have gotten more value for RoLo. There aren’t definitive odds, like there are with lottery tickets. There is only the judgment of the person you are paying to make the decisions.

      Players are not “dead” cards or lottery tickets. They are living, breathing, complex organisms without predetermined outcomes. In Phil’s judgment, the gamble on Rose is clearly not 50-1, or whatever you have predetermined it to be. Rose has MVP-level accomplishment on his resume and is becoming healthier. At this moment, what is keeping him from getting back to “very good?” If it’s physical, or mental, or situational, that’s Phil’s job to judge. If he turns out to be right, why do you think it’s fair to say “well, it turned out well, but it still was a stupid move!”? Why is it unfair to judge the move in hindsight, when it’s clearly a judgement call right now?

      Didn’t you and Jowles both think that Phil was dumb to take Porzingis for essentially the same reason…the odds were not as favorable for other choices. Do you look back now and say that you were still right, that it was just another dumb move that worked out well due to dumb luck?

    79. Cock Jowles, Top Predictor of Knicks Future Suckage

      I agree that when there is broad consensus and clear odds, you can use that logic. But in this case there is neither.

      Did you miss the part where he’s shot worse than 50 TS% for 3500+ minutes over the last two seasons?

      Didn’t you and Jowles both think that Phil was dumb to take Porzingis for essentially the same reason…the odds were not as favorable for other choices. Do you look back now and say that you were still right, that it was just another dumb move that worked out well due to dumb luck?

      Porzingis has potential to become very good at NBA basketball, but he is not currently very good at NBA basketball. What about that move has “worked out well” aside from that he didn’t get injured and wasn’t an Anthony Bennett-level bust from day 1?

    80. Frank

      Did you miss the part where he’s shot worse than 50 TS% for 3500+ minutes over the last two seasons?

      did you miss the part where he was recovering from surgery? or had double vision for much of the early season?

      or are you his orthopedic surgeon and can tell us whether he’s plateaued in his physical recovery?

    81. Cock Jowles, Top Predictor of Knicks Future Suckage

      did you miss the part where he was recovering from surgery?
      or are you his orthopedic surgeon and can tell us whether he’s plateaued in his physical recovery?

      It’s not about telling you with certainty. Derrick Rose could win the Super MVP this year for most points, highest eFG%, most rebounds, most blocks, and most quadruple-doubles in the NBA. He might even set a record for most blocks in a season. After all, he’s a living, breathing, complex organisms without predetermined outcomes. And a former MVP! Do you think any of that’s gonna happen?

      After three major knee injuries and surgeries, do you think Derrick Rose has any kind of halfway-decent odds to even become a viable NBA starter again, much less a valuable piece of a team?

      I mean, I don’t know I’m going to be right on this one, but I’m almost certainly going to be right, and all of these horrifically stupid opinions are going to be talked about like it was a 50/50 gamble with too many hidden variables to accurately predict, because the only viable analysis is in hindsight.

      I am consistently shocked by the adult posters on this board failing to put together reasonable arguments after being wrong about previous arguments over and over and over and over. This right here is a tremendously bad opinion. This is nothing new:

      http://knickerblogger.net/the-good-and-bad-of-bargnanis-preseason/#comment-448389

    82. Cock Jowles, Top Predictor of Knicks Future Suckage

      Oh god, the “we don’t know the future because last year he was injured” meme has more depth!

      http://knickerblogger.net/on-andrea-bargnani-draft-picks-and-the-importance-of-process/#comment-440566

      Wow!

      On Bargnani:

      But it’s also undeniably true that he was injured during both these years. Last year was his shooting elbow. I can’t imagine what effect that might have on someone’s shooting percentage? The year before was his calf. Last time I checked, you need calves to jump, and you need jumping to shoot a jumpshot.

      It’s also undeniably true that was his USG was 22, he was a much better player than when his USG was 28. When Bosh was THE MAN and Bargnani played off him, he was a flat-out better player. And on this team, they’ll be like four THE MANs other than him. So that can only help.

    83. massive

      How would you guys feel about adding Deron Williams to the Knicks as the starting shooting guard? I’ve been obsessing over two point guard line ups, and I think D Will gives us both a good (great) back up option if D Rose goes down and Hornacek did pretty well with Dragic and Bledsoe as his two guard line up. If Conley ends up in Dallas, I don’t think Dallas would want him back. Ideally for D Will, he would sign on to be the point guard in Oklahoma City, Chicago, or maybe even Houston. At this point though I think he should be an off guard and it would be a good system in a place where he already has a home. He also knows Melo from their time together on Team USA. If we miss out on Bazemore and can’t pull off a trade for Lamb, I think D Will would be a good guy to play at the 2 back up point guard.

      He could be the point next to Galloway instead of having Galloway as your primary back up point. He can run P&R stuff and he seems like a good fit in a triangle-influenced offense.

    84. Cock Jowles, Top Predictor of Knicks Future Suckage

      How would you guys feel about adding Deron Williams to the Knicks as the starting shooting guard?

      Sure. Is is 2011 still?

    85. massive

      I think if you move Deron Williams production over to a different spot, he’ll produce more wins. If we don’t get Bazemore or any other, you know, good players to play shooting guard, then there might be a way to manufacture good players from average production. 16 points, 3 rebounds, and 6 assists per 36 from your starting two guard is pretty decent. His eFG% bothers me but the TS% is passable. I think he’d be about 20-25% better as the off guard than he is as a point guard. Dallas also ran some sets with Felton and Williams together on the floor with him as the two. I wonder what the numbers look like for him there.

    86. Z-man

      Interesting…

      Mike Mazzeo
      ESPN Staff Writer

      The New York Daily News is reporting that Jamal Crawford could be an option for the Knicks at shooting guard. Crawford, a former Knick, is a super scorer off the bench. New York is currently thin at the position.

    87. djphan

      mvp rose is gone… get over it… he’s not coming back… ppl can report that he looks great and all that.. but the proof was on the court the last three years… this is not a fluke one year occurrence that we’re talking about…. and he’s not the first player with some sort of complications or had bad injury luck…. he’s not some unique snowflake just because we traded for him….

      the better discussion is whether or not he can be an average point guard… and in order for that to happen he has to change his game…. that’s not impossible but it’s also still unlikely…

    88. reub

      You guys don’t deserve Phil Jackson, Carmelo Anthony and Derrick Rose.
      I’ll leave it at that.

    89. Frank

      After three major knee injuries and surgeries, do you think Derrick Rose has any kind of halfway-decent odds to even become a viable NBA starter again, much less a valuable piece of a team?

      Wondering – do you even know what operations he had?
      (no googling)

    90. BigBlueAL

      I always try to be optimistic cause I’m a Knicks fan first and foremost and I couldn’t care less about making predictions and being right about them. I hope Rose plays to at least an average starter’s level this season and I’ll be rooting like crazy for him to do so but there is no logical reason to think he will do so.

      I hate all the negativity around here especially when it seems some here root for the Knicks to lose so they can be proven right instead of actually rooting for them to do well cause we are fans and it’s just sports, the point should be to enjoy rooting for your team not hope they suck to make you look smart. But yeah trying to justify stupid trades like the Bargs trade and to a lesser degree this trade is not something I will try to do cause there really is no justification to them. When I read the breaking news of the Rose trade and saw what the Knicks gave up I starting cursing my ass off because I was super pissed. But as usual I’ll try to be somewhat optimistic and hope for the best. The good thing about this season coming up is if the Knicks suck again they’ll have their lottery pick and a ton of cap space next summer so this season regardless of how bad they could be will be alot should be alot more enjoyable to watch than last season when sucking didn’t even come with a lottery pick.

    91. Kahnzy

      You guys don’t deserve Phil Jackson, Carmelo Anthony and Derrick Rose.

      You’re right, we don’t. We’ve suffered enough.

    92. JK47

      You guys don’t deserve Phil Jackson, Carmelo Anthony and Derrick Rose.
      I’ll leave it at that.

      For once we agree.

    93. massive

      You know there are some really great players in this next draft. Even if we do suck, Harry Giles (if his knees check out) would be an excellent player to put next to KP. He’s the projected #1 but I’m certain those two knee surgeries are going to knock him down to size. His NBA comp is Kevin Garnett.

      Man, if only he had good knees.

    94. DRed

      It’s not being negative to say that Rose has been awful for years and isn’t likely to be good this season. It sucks, but that’s just reality.

    95. Cock Jowles, Top Predictor of Knicks Future Suckage

      Wondering – do you even know what operations he had?

      I know the injuries: two miniscus injuries and a torn ACL. Do I know the prognosis of those surgeries? Of course I do. “Patient has >50% chance of regaining his past athleticism that, with help from a deep, strong defensive team, fooled voters into thinking that he was the best player in the league when he wasn’t even the best PG.”

      He did lead all point guards in scoring, though, so there’s that.

    96. Cock Jowles, A Living, Breathing, Complex Organism

      It’s not being negative to say that Rose has been awful for years and isn’t likely to be good this season. It sucks, but that’s just reality.

      Generic rebuttal:

      1) It is being negative and we’re Knicks fans so we should support Jackson and the team because fans.

      2) Rose has had multiple surgeries. That’s why he was bad. You’re not a surgeon so you don’t know his unique situation. He’ll be further from those surgeries, so he will improve.

      3) Rose is a living, breathing, complex organism without a predetermined outcome. You don’t know whether he’ll be good this year.

      4) It’s not reality unless we can look at it in hindsight.

    97. Z-man

      Oh, now I get it Jowles. You’re saying that even if he plays like he did his MVP year, he still sucks and the deal was a bad one. lol.

      Just curious, anyone else feel this way?

    98. Z-man

      BBA, nobody is saying he “definitely” will or “probably will. I’m saying that if Phil thinks it was worth the gamble, and the gamble pans out, give him credit in hindsight.

      Like you, I’m a fan first and foremost, and we sadly have no control over FO moves (although thank Jesus, Allah and Buddha combined that the panning this trade here didn’t have decision-making authority on draft day 2015.)

      Somebody on the Bulls blog put it in an interesting way:

      “this trade swapped our free agency needs from a starting center in a good market to a starting PG in a terrible market.”
      yeah, and the Knicks just did the opposite.

    99. chrisk06811

      Holy shit, everybody calm down. You’d think we traded for Pete Rose.

      We weren’t going to be very good this year; maybe 500 at best. that is still about our ceiling. Our floor was around where we were last year. Now it’s maybe a little lower, but that comes with a better pick and more cap space.

      Who we sign next and for how long is the real issue.

    100. massive

      Okay so I wanna put it out there that Phil Jackson is a complete moron if he signs Jamal Crawford. He’s just as bad as Rose except not injured and old so he has no potential for improvement.

    101. Zanzibar

      You’re saying that even if he plays like he did his MVP year, he still sucks and the deal was a bad one. lol.Just curious, anyone else feel this way?

      Raises hand..though I wouldn’t say he “still sucks”. I would say I still wouldn’t give him a max deal so what did the NYK really gain except the team played better for one year? Forgive me but I wasn’t at all persuaded by your list of the 4 rewards from the trade in response to my query. I rate Grant and Lopez higher than you and don’t envision any real benefit to Rose trade no matter how he plays.

    102. Cock Jowles, A Living, Breathing, Complex Organism

      Oh, now I get it Jowles. You’re saying that even if he plays like he did his MVP year, he still sucks and the deal was a bad one. lol.

      Did I say he sucked during his MVP season? There’s a big ol’ gulf between “didn’t deserve the MVP” and “sucked.”

      LeBron James was the best player in the league and Chris Paul was the best point guard. LeBron wasn’t given the award because he joined the Heat in a really stupid theatrical way. Chris Paul wasn’t the consensus best point guard because he played on team that played Jason Smith, Willie Green, Jarrett Jack and Quincy Pondexter for nearly 5,000 minutes and somehow still made the playoffs.

      Like I said, Derrick Rose was far-and-away the top volume scorer on the league’s best defensive team (#1) while being only 11th in ORtg, which should give you a sense of just how dominant the rest of his team was. He was 12th on the team in DRtg, by the way, and 11th in DBPM. There’s a good case to be made that he was the worst defender on the league’s best defense. That’s a pretty harsh criticism of a league MVP, dontcha think?

    103. Donnie Walsh

      If Rose plays like he did in 2011, the Knicks still aren’t coming out of the East next year. If he then signs an extended contract in NY and continues to play at that level for the next several years, then, yes, the Knicks will be in good shape. But the gulf between the good teams in the league (some of which are historically good) and the Knicks is vast. He and Anthony would both have to put up career years to put the Knicks in a serious conversation about contention.

    104. Z-man

      How many times can I say that I would not sign DRose to a long-term deal no matter how he plays this year? Doing that would be Amare 2.0

      For me, this deal right now is strictly: Derrick Rose for one year, or Calderon for 1 year and RoLo for 3 years (or whatever assets we could hypothetically get for him.) The 2nd round pick +Holiday for Grant is essentially a wash.

    105. Z-man

      @111 fair enough, so then clarify: if Rose plays at a reasonably high level next year relative to top 10 PGs, would you be then ok with the deal and praise Phil for making it? Is there a break-even point?

    106. Cock Jowles, A Living, Breathing, Complex Organism

      @111 fair enough, so then clarify: if Rose plays at a reasonably high level next year relative to top 10 PGs, would you be then ok with the deal and praise Phil for making it? Is there a break-even point?

      He’s a basketball player and I want the basketball players on the Knicks to produce. This is why I loved Tyson Chandler, disparaged Carmelo Anthony. and loathed Andrea Bargnani.

      As I and others have noted, if Rose performs like a top-10 PG, what makes you think the Knicks won’t toss a $35.4M AAV max deal at him over several years? Does that not terrify you?

      So while it would be great if Rose turns out to not be the awful, awful, awful players he’s been over the last 3,500 minutes, it could end up being even worse, as the Knicks could give him $167M over five years from age 29 through 33.

      Given that Jackson thought it prudent to give Carmelo Anthony a mega-max (mistake) with a no-trade clause (inexplicable), I’d say it’s pretty likely that either (1) Rose is terrible and he’s gone next year or (2) he shoots a lot and Jackson rewards him with a crazy amount of money, all the while being an injury risk every time he puts one foot in front of the other.

    107. Z-man

      So your greatest fear (?) is that he will play well enough for Phil to offer him a max? Got it. What about if he plays well, and then Phil lets him go? Would that be OK?

    108. ruruland

      Melo’s a top 25-30 player by RPM wins, a metric designed to take into account a lot more than say, Wins Produced does.

      Melo’s raw +/-
      2015-16: +5.4
      ’14: +9.2
      ’13: +9
      ’12: +3.2

      He’s had the highest +/- of any player on the team getting more than 30 percent of its minutes. And his +/- was significantly better than Chandler’s in ’12 and ’13.

      Not to mention the Knicks actual record without Melo is significantly worse than it is with him, including last year’s 0-10.

      Jowles only uses WP and primarily likes to use it to attack players with high usage and middling or worse efficiency. WP and its founders have a valid point. High usage/ middling efficiency players have been overvalued for years. Low usage players have been undervalued for years. But their incomplete statistic takes this notion to the absolute extreme.

      Jowles never mentions how often WP will churn out numbers that show, for example, that Jose Calderon was the best Knicks player last year, or that Ronnie Brewer was the MVP of the 54 win Knicks.

      That’s important to remember any time you engage with him.
      When he says that player X is good and player Y is bad, it’s often not that simple. that’s not to say I don’t think Jowles reference point is bad, per se, it’s just quite incomplete.

      In the context of Rose, however, it is clear by EVERY metric he’s been very bad all the way around the last two seasons. I do think his offensive impact is greater than his ORTG. But even taking into account how his penetration is a benefit to the offense as a whole, the most optimistic projection for Rose is average. That would be an improvement over last year’s guards.

      The trade was bad on its face, but that doesn’t mean the Knicks can’t have a good off-season, nor build a team better than last year, with the opportunity to get even better when Rose comes off the books.

    109. Cock Jowles, A Living, Breathing, Complex Organism

      Oh shit here we go again

      but mostly I agree with that post, just not about Carmelo, Captain of the 17-win 2014-15 Knicks

    110. Brian Cronin

      Didn’t you and Jowles both think that Phil was dumb to take Porzingis for essentially the same reason…the odds were not as favorable for other choices.

      I was totally on board with taking Porzingis at #4. I also would have been fine with other players #4, as well, but I had absolutely no problem with Porzingis at #4. Heck, day of the draft, I wrote that if he was there at #4, that I wanted them to take him, since he had the highest reward of the remaining players and I wanted the grand slam pick since they were all so close otherwise.

    111. KnickLifer

      Shame on you guys for kicking a man while he’s down. How you going to try and question someone winning the MVP award by calling him a Volume shooter. He was carrying that team on his back. Rose is an incredibly successful basketball player. He’s made the post-season almost every year of his career. The man is only 27 going on 28. Yes 3 knee surgeries. 1 Acl tear which has been fine ever since and A meniscus tear in the other knee with a small tear the next year which sidelined him 6 weeks. Came back, and did his thing in the playoffs. Something we know nothing about. Im rooting for this man to be successful. One of the most talented ball players I’ve ever seen & we are lucky to have him in NY even if it is for one season.

    112. Aten

      @117

      Show me where WP says Ronnie Brewer, and not Kidd/Chandler, was the MVP of the 2013 team. Failing that, admit you’re just lying. Failing that, I’d point out that professional wrestling has way more fake stars wearing way more jockstraps and the rest of us are getting really tired of having to hold our noses and root for the team you deserve.

    113. massive

      I think WP48 is a really good stat, but come on bro they have Carmelo Anthony down for a little over one win produced that season. That is hilarious.

    114. ruruland

      Pardon me, Ronnie Brewer was the MVP of the first quarter of 2013 and was merely the best wing on that team. My bad.

      Jose Calderon’s adjusted p48 last year was 12th among all point guards, better than: John Wall, Isaiah Thomas, Kyrie Irving, Damian Lillard…

      Enes kanter was the 13th best player in the league last year, having roughly the same per minute impact as Westbrook and Durant.

      We can do this all day.

    115. massive

      Speaking of the Thunder, if they keep KD they should be the favorites to win the NBA championship. Russ, Roberson, KD, Kanter, Adams, and Oladipo is about as good a top 6 as you will see in the NBA. Very little three point shooting, but that team isn’t losing to anybody in the playoffs next season.

    116. ruruland

      Cole Aldrich is amazing in 5-10 minute bursts. 4th in NBA in defensive RPM. No arguments there. But it makes little sense to compare an extremely active backup center with a run-your-offense through wing.

    117. Brian Cronin

      Speaking of the Thunder, if they keep KD they should be the favorites to win the NBA championship. Russ, Roberson, KD, Kanter, Adams, and Oladipo is about as good a top 6 as you will see in the NBA. Very little three point shooting, but that team isn’t losing to anybody in the playoffs next season.

      I dunno. A. The three-point shooting actually got worse in the Ibaka/Oladipo deal and it was already iffy outside Durant and B. The ability to play Ibaka at the #5 and not lose outside shooting was huge. They won’t be able to do that with Adams. It is not a huge deal against most of the league, but could be a problem against Golden State.

      But yes, they did very well for themselves in that Ibaka deal. They will likely win a bunch of games if they bring Durant back. I was very impressed with the trade on OKC’s side of the deal.

    118. Kevin Udwary

      How is RPM derived? What are the variables it uses? What is the equation? Say what you will about WP, but at least it doesn’t hide behind a bullshit “proprietary” label.

    119. Brian Cronin

      How is RPM derived? What are the variables it uses? What is the equation? Say what you will about WP, but at least it doesn’t hide behind a bullshit “proprietary” label.

      Yeah, right or wrong, I tune out when I get to “We can’t tell how it is determined.”

    120. massive

      They can always try to go after guys like Mike Miller, Ryan Anderson, and Jared Dudley to add more shooting to their roster, though. When the dust settles there will be guys taking bargain deals. I don’t know if OKC can keep Oladipo after next season if Russ and KD stay (because they’re going to have to commit roughly $350M to KD and Russ), but this is their year. If it doesn’t happen in 2017 it will never happen for them.

      Good point about Ibaka, though. He helped them space the floor. The one thing I hate the most about the Thunder is they do not have an offense. It’s all isolation and high P&Rs. I really don’t wanna see their style of play rewarded with a championship.

    121. Z-man

      All this rancor proves my point: Rose is a revelation and Knicks will win the title in 2016-17. Or something like that.

      OK so I’ve had a bit to drink. Fuck WP.

    122. massive

      Oh, I forgot.

      The idea that Rose can’t play in the triangle is ridiculous. The Bulls ran a lot of the triangle offense under Tom Thibodeau. I mean, he’ll stick probably be bad, but he’s familiar with triangle concepts and won’t be lost on the ideas.

      https://youtu.be/W_3hjMoP6LQ

    123. reub

      Knicklifer it’s easier just to let them be. They really don’t want the Knicks to be a good team this year. They want a “pure” team that will be great in 2025 when KP matures fully.

      Oh, did you hear that our team has a meeting scheduled with KD allegedly? Also Chandler Parsons. We’re going to have a great team in about a week. Jamal Crawford wants to play here too.

    124. Cock Jowles, A Living, Breathing, Complex Organism

      Maybe someday we’ll meet halfway between Boise and Portland and you can use a whiteboard to show me how Carmelo would be underutilized in every modern NBA offense because no one has created a system to maximize his unique talents and I can drink my beer and nod with my eyes closed.

      Hoopfest 2016 in Spokane? As long as it’s not 105 F again, we can settle this beef once and for all. On the court.

    125. yellowboy90

      I dunno. A. The three-point shooting actually got worse in the Ibaka/Oladipo deal and it was already iffy outside Durant and B. The ability to play Ibaka at the #5 and not lose outside shooting was huge. They won’t be able to do that with Adams. It is not a huge deal against most of the league, but could be a problem against Golden State.

      I disagree with the 1st part. Ibaka’s 3pt shooting seems to be declining while Oladipo’s improves a little more every year. He actually shot the ball better than Ibaka last year. Also, I think Ilyasova is a nice get for them because of his shooting. They’ll lose the rim protection but the rebounding is similar. A year removed from injury and Ily might look closer to 2-way player people hoped he would become.

    126. Darrell H.

      It sure seems like this site has 2 camps. The followers of a guy named “Cock” and those that are forced to try to refute the BS. The second group may or may not like what is happening with their team but they are still fans. The first group just wants to make the others miserable. Can anyone from the second group post any decent alternatives to this depressing site?

    127. Z-man

      @143 that’s an oversimplification. there is lots of nuance to the debates here, despite Jowles’ churlishness. P&T has very good authors and some high-end posters. But this is the best sports blog, period.

    128. Z-man

      reub is an outlier here, he offers little but unbridled optimism. Most long-timers are more measured and objective.

    129. Darrell H.

      Thanks Z-man. I’ve been reading here for years. I know who’s who. It just seems like alot of the guys I like to read post less and less or have moved on. Too many times i read here and want to cyber-strangle someone! Oh well. My problem. Not theirs. I’ll try your recommendation.

    130. DRed

      Posting & Toasting is pretty funny, and the general mood is much more optimistic than here. But you miss out on me being right all the time about everything.

    131. djphan

      oladipo’s going to be real good and is going to unmake the horrible harden trade…. his 3pt shooting is mediocre now but he’s improved it every year and he’s improving in all the key areas… he’s about to hit a breakout and the thunder were wise to capitalize…

      this effectively undoes the harden trade which i’m sure presti would want to take back… thunder should be cofavorites with gsw….

    132. Cock Jowles, A Living, Breathing, Complex Organism

      that’s an oversimplification. there is lots of nuance to the debates here, despite Jowles’ churlishness.

      I may be crude, but this isn’t a matter of nuance. Derrick Rose is brute-force, beat-your-head-against-the-wall fucking awful. If you don’t see that, or you think that his past two seasons are not indicative of future play, you are looking for nuance where there is absolutely fucking none.

      Bookmark this thread: Derrick Rose is either going to be one of the worst players in the league by any advanced metric or he will be injured.

    133. thenoblefacehumper

      My biggest criticism of the Rose trade has been mentioned in this thread; even if he defies all probability and plays well, it’s far from certain that the deal will have been worth making. We ain’t winning a championship regardless of how well he plays, and I refuse to believe he’s getting anything but a huge deal if the narrative is on his side (again, he’s made his desire for another max contract very, very clear). I just want to make sure we all agree that a max contract for Derrick Rose would be a horrible idea regardless of how he plays this season.

      Of course, the far more likely scenario is he just continues his 4000 minute trend of shitty play and we lost two assets for the privilege of seeing it up close.

      Re: Grant and Lopez as assets, seriously guys, Thad Young is worse than Lopez at everything and got a first rounder AND a second. Similar contract, similar age. Grant was in the top half of rookies in WP48 (smack in the middle in WS48) and definitely got better as the season went on. I would actually go as far as to say he improved his stock after being drafted 19th. We can argue about various aspects of the trade, but I’m sick of seeing these two being totally written off. I am certain we could’ve gotten multiple seconds at a bare minimum for both, which would still be a lot better than one year of an expensive, terrible, injury riddled player. Hell, I even think Calderon will be shown to have been more important to our offense than people seem to think.

    134. Silky Johnson, Phil Jackson Hater of the Year

      requesting livestream of jowles ruruland And1 street ball faceoff

    135. Brian Cronin

      Ibaka’s 3pt shooting seems to be declining while Oladipo’s improves a little more every year. He actually shot the ball better than Ibaka last year.

      Oladipo’s not replacing Ibaka in the lineup, though, he’s replacing Waiters. That’s a big improvement, overall, of course, but specifically among three point shooting, Oladipo is not better than Waiters while the three-point drop off from Ibaka to Kanter/Adams is huge, as those two guys just don’t shoot threes (Kanter takes 0.3 a game and Adams didn’t take one all season).

      Oladipo’s defense and youth combined with the #11 pick was an excellent return on Ibaka, I just think that the deal does open up some problem areas for OKC even as it closes up other problem areas.

    136. Cock Jowles, A Living, Breathing, Complex Organism

      Can anyone from the second group post any decent alternatives to this depressing site?

      No one follows me. I’m probably the most angry critic of the last fifteen years of James Dolan running this franchise into the fucking turf. Folks like Cronin, JK47, DRed, Alecto, et al. tend to agree with me in a less vociferous (and funnier) way. On Dolan: He’s a fucking moron and if you’re really interested in seeing the Knicks win a playoff game before 2024, you should hope he sells the team tomorrow or gets hit by a fucking bus.

      http://www.reddit.com/r/nyknicks where they do brilliant work like this:

      https://www.reddit.com/r/NYKnicks/comments/1hf90p/help_me_understand_why_the_bargnani_trade_is/

      Upvoted comment on Bargnani’s role after his 2013-14 dumpster fire season:

      either coming in for amar’e or chandler depending on what we need. We know he can score and we know he can lock down opposing centers at a high level. He’s more than decent if used correctly.

      Top comment on why the Knicks were 15-27 before Bargnani got hurt and 21-18 after.

      that’s not because bargnani sucks, it because the “big line up” was horrible. it was made worse because felton and shumpert couldn’t space the floor, and chandler always camps around the paint so it destroyed the floor spacing for carmelo and andrea. coupled with the fact that andrea’s rebounding is streaky, it just was a horrible line up that Woodson refused to give up on. the knicks got better after bargnani got injured because they were forced to give up on that line up. doesn’t change the fact he was having one of his better seasons before getting injured.

      On Bargnani’s rebounding:

      Bargnani is not a terrible rebounder – or, at least not as bad as you all seem to think. per 100 possessions, which adjust for pace because we play at one of the lowest paces in the league, he averages 2 less than Marc Gasol.

    137. Cock Jowles, A Living, Breathing, Complex Organism

      On his rebounding and shot-blocking prowess (upvoted):

      He had his best rebounding (9.4 per 100 possessions) and shot blocking (2.2 per 100 possessions) season of his career. So to say he was terrible for us isn’t accurate. He was often seen hustling, going after loose balls, giving the team a spark when it was never expected of him. I’m not gonna be one of the guys who says Bargnani doesn’t try because he tried harder for us than during his tenure in Toronto. And he had one of his better shooting seasons as well. It’s up to Fish to put him in a lineup that benefits from his production.

      Upvoted comment on how if you stop the master floor-spacer from taking any three-pointers, he becomes a better player:

      Bargnani is fine. his contract is not, but as a player, he is fine.
      I just had this discussion yesterday, and I’m actually considering putting it up on /r/nba for all the fuckwits who trash the dude – Bargnani shot 44% on the season, 27% from 3. take him off the 3 point line and he shot 49% from the field, that is not a typo. it’s almost like good coaches put a player in a position to succeed – a guy shooting 27% from 3 should never be in a position to take 3 a game. oh and that 49% from the field? that’s on like, 90% midrange jumpers. dude never attacks the rim – and that’s ok when you’re shooting fucking 49% from inside the arc.

      If you agree with any of these comments, you might belong over at r/nba with the rest of the basketball geniuses.

    138. Cock Jowles, A Living, Breathing, Complex Organism

      Re: Grant and Lopez as assets, seriously guys, Thad Young is worse than Lopez at everything and got a first rounder AND a second. Similar contract, similar age.

      This is true, but Young scores 15 PPG and Lopez 10. I simply do not believe that this information is irrelevant to most NBA decision-makers, even if it’s like paying a dude for his batting average in 2016.

    139. thenoblefacehumper

      This is true, but Young scores 15 PPG and Lopez 10. I simply do not believe that this information is irrelevant to most NBA decision-makers, even if it’s like paying a dude for his batting average in 2016.

      Sad but true. My point stands though. I am positive they could’ve gotten at least second rounders for him. I wouldn’t have made that trade because I think Lopez is actually good and was one of the relatively small number of 2015-2016 Knicks worth keeping, but it still would’ve been a hell of a lot better than Derrick fucking Rose.

    140. DRed

      r/nba has some good stuff from time to time, but I am not sure how most of those guys turn their computers on

    141. Cock Jowles, A Living, Breathing, Complex Organism

      Sad but true. My point stands though. I am positive they could’ve gotten at least second rounders for him. I wouldn’t have made that trade because I think Lopez is actually good and was one of the relatively small number of 2015-2016 Knicks worth keeping, but it still would’ve been a hell of a lot better than Derrick fucking Rose.

      I agree on all points.

    142. reub

      They are going to be so embarrassed!

      Will they be rooting for the Knicks to win or lose this year? I think I know.

    143. BigBlueAL

      Bargs did have that 1 game where he hit a jumper in KG’s face and talked shit to him. Easily the best moment of the Bargs era.

    144. JK47

      Didn’t he also like punch Garnett in the nuts or something? I seem to remember something like that happening.

    145. Frank

      My biggest criticism of the Rose trade has been mentioned in this thread; even if he defies all probability and plays well, it’s far from certain that the deal will have been worth making. We ain’t winning a championship regardless of how well he plays

      News flash. We weren’t wining a championship regardless of whether we made that trade or not.

      Again – to be 100% clear — I don’t really like this trade, and I’ve stood by that since the start. I wouldn’t have done it and I think we probably should have gotten more (or given less).

      That said – I’d like noblefacehumper, THCJ, JK47 etc. to present a plan by which we WERE going to win a championship in the next 2-3 years (or at least be in serious contention) pre-trade.

      The conditions I’d propose on a realistic plan:

      1) This cannot include trading Melo, since that isn’t happening.

      2) Predictions of FA signings have to be reasonable, as in superstars are not going to come to a team that is tanking or even semi-tanking.

      3) Has to take into account the way the NBA is going — ie. “positionless basketball”, 3 point shooting, whereby bigs who are not mobile are being phased out

      4) The plan has to be at least somewhat specific – ie. trade Melo for some package of stuff that turns into Lebron does not count.

      I think you’ll find it’s much easier to tear down someone else’s plan than to make your own.

    146. Frank

      (The only nonspecific plan I’ll go by is to make a deal with the devil so Jim Dolan sells the team to Obama. regardless of your politics, it would be so freaking cool to have Obama own the Knicks)

    147. Frank

      Thad Young is worse than Lopez at everything and got a first rounder AND a second. Similar contract, similar age

      So despite playing being 4″ shorter and playing a lot more on the perimeter, Thad Young is a better rebounder than Lopez (TRB 15.4 vs. 14.8).

      He assists more than Lopez (AST% 9.5 vs 8.5)

      He turns the ball over less than Lopez (TOV% 11.6 vs 15.6)

      He (volume) scores more than Lopez.

      OK, so now that we’ve seen that Lopez is NOT better at everything than Thad Young….

      Thad Young is also a pretty solid and versatile defender, and can guard 2-4 in a pinch if on a switch. He’s actually capable of defending more than 10 feet from the basket. He plays really well off the ball. Zach Lowe, fivethirtyeight, and others who actually do more than look at someone’ s line at B-R all love Thaddeus Young.

    148. heavencent35

      Derrick rose deal gives the Knicks a chance to hope for the present and the future. Stop hating guys. We will back in the playoffs next year.

    149. Z-man

      I will neither disparage Lopez nor wring my hands over what we could have gotten for him. Same with Grant. Calderon truly sucked, though. Nice guy, but I really hated watching him do anything but take wide-open 3’s.

      The trade is done. The only thing I’m interested in is under what circumstances will the trade have worked out well for us in retrospect. Here are possible scenarios:

      1. If Rose plays from good to superstar level and we trade him at the deadline for assets, that would be ideal.
      2. If Rose plays from good to superstar level and we sign him, that would be a nightmare
      3. If Rose plays from good to superstar level and we keep him but don’t sign him, that would be okay.
      4. If Rose plays poorly or gets hurt, that would suck, but not as much as if he plays just well enough for us to re-sign him

      My guess is that Phil thinks there is a reasonable chance of #3 unfolding. I doubt that he goes for #1 unless the team is losing (not because of Rose) and he decides to punt like he did with Shump and JR. I doubt that he would consider #1. He considers #4 a real possible outcome, but worth the risk in an extremely thin market for PGs. He would rather do this than either stand pat or compete to overpay Rondo or Conley by committing to long-term max deals. He temporarily solved the starting PG problem and can focus on filling other positions where the market forces are more in his favor.

    150. lavor postell

      Porzingis has potential to become very good at NBA basketball, but he is not currently very good at NBA basketball. What about that move has “worked out well” aside from that he didn’t get injured and wasn’t an Anthony Bennett-level bust from day 1?

      This is honestly ridiculous. Plenty about that move has worked out well besides him not getting injured and not being a bust.

    151. Zanzibar

      That said – I’d like noblefacehumper, THCJ, JK47 etc. to present a plan by which we WERE going to win a championship in the next 2-3 years (or at least be in serious contention)

      Here it is, the #s in parens are WS/48:

      1: Westbrook (.230) Grant(.130)
      2: Tyler Johnson (.150) Galloway (.130)
      3: Melo (.150) Lance (.100)
      4: KP (.220) Willy (.120)
      5: Lopez (.175)

      Melo plays to career average. Lopez has attained that WS/48 before. Grant actually had a higher WS/48 than .130 as a backup at the beginning of the year. KP would have to make the Pau or Dirk jump. Galloway should be fine in a more well-defined role. Lance is just a 3&D guy.

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