Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Wednesday, March 20, 2019

Knicks Morning News (2015.03.31)

  • [New York Times] StubHub Sues Over Warriors Tickets (Tue, 31 Mar 2015 04:38:51 GMT)
    The ticket resale company StubHub alleges that Ticketmaster and the Golden State Warriors unfairly required fans looking to sell tickets to use TicketMaster’s exchange.

  • [New York Times] Blazers Clinch Playoff Spot With 109-86 Win Over Phoenix (Tue, 31 Mar 2015 04:24:09 GMT)
    Damian Lillard scored 19 points before sitting the final quarter and the Portland Trail Blazers secured a playoff berth with a 109-86 victory Monday night over the Phoenix Suns.

  • [New York Times] DeRozan Scores 42, Raptors Beat Rockets 99-96 (Tue, 31 Mar 2015 03:33:10 GMT)
    DeMar DeRozan and James Harden have been battling on the basketball court for more than a decade.

  • [New York Times] Carroll, Korver Lead Hawks to 101-88 Win Over Bucks (Tue, 31 Mar 2015 03:09:22 GMT)
    Kyle Korver was unstoppable for 65 seconds.

  • [New York Times] Grizzlies Beat Kings 97-83 to End Three-Game Skid (Tue, 31 Mar 2015 02:51:20 GMT)
    Mike Conley scored 18 points, Jeff Green added 16 and the Memphis Grizzlies snapped their three-game losing streak with a 97-83 victory over the Sacramento Kings on Monday night.

  • [New York Times] Hayward Helps Jazz Beat Timberwolves 104-84 (Tue, 31 Mar 2015 02:42:19 GMT)
    Gordon Hayward scored 22 points, reserve Trey Burke had 19 and the Utah Jazz beat the short-handed Minnesota Timberwolves 104-84 on Monday night.

  • [New York Times] Lakers Beat 76ers 113-111 in OT on Clarkson’s Basket (Tue, 31 Mar 2015 02:33:17 GMT)
    Jordan Clarkson scored 26 points and made the tiebreaking basket with 0.7 seconds left in overtime to lift the Los Angeles Lakers past the Philadelphia 76ers, 113-111 on Monday night in a matchup of two of the NBA’s worst teams.

  • [New York Times] Bradley Scores 30, Celtics Defeat Hornets 116-104 (Tue, 31 Mar 2015 01:42:34 GMT)
    Avery Bradley had 30 points and eight rebounds, and the Boston Celtics beat the Charlotte Hornets 116-104 on Monday night for an important Eastern Conference victory.

  • [New York Daily News] Phil Jackson swears to the gods…again (Tue, 31 Mar 2015 02:05:34 GMT)
    Phil Jackson is tweeting about the basketball gods again.

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    91 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2015.03.31)

    1. Farfa

      Hey, this year being a Lakers fan has to be much worse than being a Knicks fan! Their top-5 protected pick is looming over every win, I guess that has to be bleaker than whatever we’re going through.

      PS: I don’t understand a fuck about Phil’s tweets. Who are those bb gods he keeps on calling forth? Every time I think his phone autocorrects him, and he’s trying to write “bb guns”.

    2. thenamestsam

      I’ll admit that I do find it slightly concerning that our 70-year old president of basketball operations comes across as more than a little senile on his twitter feed. But old people and technology never mix that well, so it’s a bit hard to judge.

    3. Farfa

      more than a little senile

      Yup, like the grandpa at the Thanksgiving who keeps repeating gibberish about “those faggots who pierce their ears”.

    4. hoolahoop

      “We will rebuild a team that fits together-guys that want to compete and play the way bball gods approve. #groundup,” Jackson tweeted late Sunday night from his @PhilJackson11 account.

      Unless Phil plans on trading Melo, or getting him to radically change his game, this is pure bullshit fan appeasement PR.
      I grew up with the knicks that won their first championship. Tough defense and sharing the ball was their motto. Phils knows full well that’s what the bball gods want.
      Red Holzman must be rolling in his grave every time Melo takes the floor at MSG.

    5. Farfa

      this is a great sentence, Farfa.

      If it’s ironic, I’m sorry. From time to time I fail at proper english phrase-building. :-(

      If not, thumbs up!

    6. Farfa

      guys that want to compete and play the way bball gods approve

      I have a weird feeling that in Phil’s mind Jah is one of those guys.

    7. er

      –Red Holzman must be rolling in his grave every time Melo takes the floor at MSG.

      Good thing he hasnt played in a few months. Red can stop spinning for a while :)

    8. vincoug

      I have a weird feeling that in Phil’s mind Jah is one of those guys.

      My first thought was of Bargnani.

    9. d-mar

      At the risk of invoking the full-fledged wrath of the efficiency acolytes, I have to question the common perception that Tyson Chandler is somehow having a season for the ages. Last I checked, he was 5th in rebounding behind Jordan, Drummond, Cousins and Gasol and 27th in blocks (behind basically everyone)

      Now I know he’s the king of TS% (although right now the top 10 in that stat includes Luke Babbitt, Myers Leonard and Chris Anderson) and I know when he dunks 5 times off of pick and rolls he’s WAY more valuable than a guy who actually has to attempt jump shots, but is he really one of the top players in the NBA?

      OK bring it on Berri-ites!

    10. Brian Cronin

      Fifth in rebounding in the league, second in TS% and a great defender and you aren’t sure why people think he’s having a great season?

      If you’re still unsure after that, I don’t think anyone is going to be able to help you with it.

    11. wetbandit

      I think Jason Smith can be an effective 8th player on a team. He’s been playing OK lately.

      As for the Phil Jackson stuff, come on. How many times can we rehash the same arguments? This is getting to Tyson/WP/Usage argument levels.

      Can we agree that some people think he is doing horrible so far, and some people think he is doing ok-to-slightly-meh, and that we all agree the real work comes in this summer?

      His tweets aren’t that weird. Wants to build ground-up (OK. What about Melo? Maybe he thinks Melo is a foundation to build around). Wants to appease his B-Ball gods (Sounds good to me).

      And I love his retweet: “If you have the right people, the problem of how to motivate them largely goes away.” Jim Collins. I’d like to say that to everyone that brings up valuing Shump/JR.

    12. Brian Cronin

      I don’t think his tweets are a big deal. That said, his tweets are moronic and sophomoric. His recurring “Basketball gods” stuff? How childish is that? It doesn’t affect my opinion about the guy either way, but they’re still ridiculous tweets.

    13. Brian Cronin

      Smith has been awful, but he’s been so much worse than his normal seasons that I do think he has a chance of bouncing back a little next season. I wouldn’t want to bet on it happening, so I don’t want any part of him on the Knicks, but it’s definitely a possibility.

    14. d-mar

      If he’s such a great defender, why is Dallas 16th in defensive efficiency? And I think it’s fair to look at blocked shots when you’re evaluating a center, and Chandler is 27th, behind Jon Henson, Brook Lopez, Bismack Biyombo, etc. etc. Oh, and in a flashback for Knicks fans, last game vs. Indiana he was outscored by the great Roy Hibbert 14 to 2.

      But what do I know?

    15. bidiong

      I don’t know if blocking shots is a huge deal in and of itself, I think strongly contesting shots is more important. There’s probably relevance that if you’re strongly contesting shots you will block more though.

    16. thenamestsam

      I can’t say Dallas is one of my most watched teams this year, but when I have seen them I have not been overwhelmed by Tyson’s D this year. It has definitely bounced back some from last year, but he’s still not close to the force he was when he won that DPOY. He still has some very strong strengths – his mobility in particular is still excellent for a non-undersized C, but he does seem to have fallen off significantly as a rim protector (and the stats seem to back that up).

      But still, super efficient (if limited in other ways) offensive player, elite rebounder, and solid defender is a really, really good C in a world where good C are hard to come by (I assume there’s a different planet where everyone is 7-feet tall and finding a good PG is near impossible). I wouldn’t describe it as a season for the ages, but he’s really good. The guys we got back for him (so far) are not really good, as it turns out. Which is a bummer.

    17. swiftandabundant

      I keep thinking Cleveland is going to lose in the 2nd round or even the ECF and Love is going to want to leave and we swoop in and do a Love/Melo swap. I know, I know…Melo would NEVER go to Cleveland but are we so sure about that?

      1) Melo and Lebron are good friends. Melo missed out on the Big Three in Miami. He would have no problem deferring to Lebron (and Lebron would have no problem letting Melo score more points while he does the playmaking).

      2) Shump and JR are now in Cleveland. Shump may not be there next year but JR most certainly will. Get the band back together one more time Melo?

      3) Melo has his money, now he just needs a ring. Teaming up with Lebron and Irving in the ECF would be his best shot at it during his still prime years.

      I really think this is something that could happen. Either that or he ends up on the Clippers. The NTC to me is not a big deal because most stars of Melo’s caliber (i.e., franchise players) have this in their contract. And I believe that when Phil and Melo discussed the terms of the contract it came up that he would/could be traded to a contender in a year. Melo was all ready needing knee surgery this year. The tank was preplanned. Its our only draft pick in a very top heavy draft. You honestly think Phil didn’t think this was a big possibility?

      Even if trading Melo isn’t the plan, I think the tank was. He can’t come out and say “we’re gonna tank.” If the team outperformed and made the playoffs then so be it but the tank was on my friends.

    18. GoNyGoNYGo

      I have no problem with PJ’s tweets – I only have a problem with his silence.

      If I missed watching a game over the past 10 years it was because it was physically impossible. I think I’ve seen about 6 quarters in 2015. Now it’s emotionally impossible for me to watch. Ripping the team apart ripped my heart out of my chest. His tweet tells me he’s still trying. I had fears he was throwing his hands up in the air and would quit.

    19. Brian Cronin

      Even if trading Melo isn’t the plan, I think the tank was. He can’t come out and say “we’re gonna tank.” If the team outperformed and made the playoffs then so be it but the tank was on my friends.

      There is zero chance that he traded for Jose Calderon with the intent to tank. The tank was a lucky accident. Thank goodness for it, though!

    20. stratomatic

      I think the “basketball gods” reference might be a generational thing.

      I’m older than most of you. I’m 56. When I was younger, talk about appeasing the “gods” of whatever sport/game you were interested in was fairly common. It’s a kind of superstitious reference, as in, if you do things the wrong way, you will have predominantly bad luck and poor results and if you do things the right way, you will have predominantly good luck and favorable results. Think of it as a kind of sports or gambling karma.

      In any event, even if you understood the reference, it was used more commonly years ago. So Phil’s use of it is a total non issue and quite understandable.

    21. Brian Cronin

      If he’s such a great defender, why is Dallas 16th in defensive efficiency? And I think it’s fair to look at blocked shots when you’re evaluating a center, and Chandler is 27th, behind Jon Henson, Brook Lopez, Bismack Biyombo, etc. etc. Oh, and in a flashback for Knicks fans, last game vs. Indiana he was outscored by the great Roy Hibbert 14 to 2.

      It’s a shitty defensive team. Dirk, Parsons, Ellis – they’re all mediocre to bad defenders. Even Rondo, who was once a plus defender, has slipped a great deal. And even with that, their defensive efficiency has risen five/six places from last year.

      As for blocks, he just isn’t a guy who blocks shots. He won defensive player of the year without being in the top ten in blocks. His strengths on defense lie more in his mobility than being a strict blocker. You know, cutting a guy off before he even gets to the rim. The Knicks built an entire defense just on his ability to be able to switch on to any player if need be.

      So anyhow, elite rebounding, elite efficiency and strong defense = pretty clearly a really, really good player.

    22. lavor postell

      Tyson is very obviously not the defender he was 2 years ago. Still a very good player, but not as much of a force he was in his first stint in Dallas and his DPOY year in New York.

      Also it’s interesting that Chandler’s offensive efficiency has been vastly superior playing next to a high usage isolation scorer (Melo + Dirk) than it was when playing in New Orleans with Paul.

    23. Donnie Walsh

      If he’s such a great defender, why is Dallas 16th in defensive efficiency?

      Well, Dallas was 22nd in defensive efficiency last year, so there’s that.

    24. mura2337

      @26. Yup. While hoops is a game dominated by individual greatness, it’s still a team game. You can be Bill Russell, but if you’re paired with a bunch of non-defenders it negates your ability to perform at an elite level. Imagine if he played on San Antonio. We would all be talking about how stunning he is as a defender.

    25. Brian Cronin

      It was sort of similar to how he won Defensive Player of the Year in 2011-12 because he was paired with a bunch of strong defenders and then when they took away most of those defenders and replaced them with bad defenders, he didn’t look as good. He was still the same strong defender but because the rest of the team changed, the defense got worse overall.

    26. DRed

      Also it’s interesting that Chandler’s offensive efficiency has been vastly superior playing next to a high usage isolation scorer (Melo + Dirk) than it was when playing in New Orleans with Paul.

      He got better at shooting FTs. Tyson shot sub 60% from the line back in the NO days.

    27. mura2337

      High usage iso players like Melo and Dirk typically draw more attention from the defense. That, at least in theory, should allow players like Chandler to get easier buckets. I say “in theory” because that hasn’t been the case with Melo, at least on a consistent basis. That could be a product of the talent around him though. Plus, free throws.

    28. lavor postell

      He got better at shooting FTs. Tyson shot sub 60% from the line back in the NO days.

      Good call

    29. Farfa

      We can be bitter as much as we want about Tyson and his last mailed in season, but we can’t dismiss his (historical) greatness because of that.

      Historical note: DPOY or not, Chandler defined two things that will remain in bb gods’ mind (emm, I wanted to say in basketball books): the Chandler tap out and the Chandler PnR dive in. There’s a reason why every non shooting center that barrels to the rim these days is said to be “in the Chandler mold”. Many did it before him, but none did it so efficiently while spacing the court.

    30. lavor postell

      There’s a reason why every non shooting center that barrels to the rim these days is said to be “in the Chandler mold”. Many did it before him, but none did it so efficiently while spacing the court.

      STAT is the guy who popularized this offensive skill for big men in the modern game. Chandler’s great, but the high PNR dive was popularized by MDA’s Phoenix teams with Nash at point and STAT operating as the roll man.

    31. Donnie Walsh

      We can be bitter as much as we want about Tyson and his last mailed in season

      Didn’t Chandler break his leg in game #2 of last season? Is it really fair to say he “mailed it in”?

    32. lavor postell

      Didn’t Chandler break his leg in game #2 of last season? Is it really fair to say he “mailed it in”?

      Yes because he came back healthy and clearly didn’t give a shit. I don’t even think him not giving a shit is tough to understand, but I do think it’s fair to be critical of him for that. I didn’t think it was very hard to understand why Melo didn’t get along with MDA but it was definitely fair to criticize him for it, which he was.

    33. GoNyGoNYGo

      @26 Strat- We’re the same age. I can’t understand the whole hullaballoo either.

      @36 Yes and people who think you can come back from an injury like that and be dominant force obviously haven’t had that kind of injury. Muscles atrophy, timing is off, you favor that leg, etc. I’ve always held the opinion that losing Chandler in game 2 last year is the primary reason why we are where we are today.

    34. d-mar

      Oh please, let’s stop making excuses for Chandler. Before he broke his leg, he was destroyed by Hibbert in the 2013 playoffs. But of course that was because he had some mystery virus or some unknown neck problem. And if his teammates suck so bad on defense this year, I would think he would lead the league in blocks as opposing players blow by their man and get into the paint. But, oh wait, he’s 27th.

    35. Donnie Walsh

      Oh please, let’s stop making excuses for Chandler.

      Wait, so he didn’t break his leg in game #2. (If he did, it’s not an excuse. It’s a simple fact and explains why he underperformed)

    36. d-mar

      Well, it was actually called “a non-displaced fracture of his right fibula”, and no surgery was required. He ended up missing 4 weeks.

      But I guess it’s true: all players returning from injury underperform.

    37. iserp

      There is zero chance that he traded for Jose Calderon with the intent to tank. The tank was a lucky accident. Thank goodness for it, though!

      I believe the trade for Calderon was looking for the 2016 season. PJ swapped Felton for Calderon at the cost of 3M of cap space; which i thought it was good at the moment. Shooting and court vision age well, and the triangle doesn’t ask too much to the PGs. Calderon hasnt looked good lately, though.

    38. Brian Cronin

      I agree that he thought Calderon would be able to contribute going forward, but he also clearly thought he’d contribute in the short term, as well. You don’t trade for a 33-year-old guy if you don’t think he’s going to contribute in his age-33 season. So yes, he had the future in mind with the deal but he definitely did not have tanking in mind.

    39. iserp

      I agree that he thought Calderon would be able to contribute going forward, but he also clearly thought he’d contribute in the short term, as well. You don’t trade for a 33-year-old guy if you don’t think he’s going to contribute in his year-33 season.

      I agree that Jackson tried to fight for a playoff spot this season; and put a team that he thought that could click together. It didn’t, injuries did the rest, and he tore apart what was remaining. But he didnt compromise the future.

      I am more upset about the Shumpert and JR trade. I’d rather have used Shumpert to get some kind of asset and stretch JR at end of the season. Or even let Shumpert play out the season, and see if he deserves a spot going forward.

    40. Brian Cronin

      Oh sure, I think he was very methodically thinking about the future with all of his deals. I was only disagreeing with the suggestion that he planned to tank this season. He did not.

      And the Smith/Shumpert thing is an interesting debate – namely over whether trying to dump guys like Felton and Smith was even a smart thing in the first place, or if the team was better off trading Chandler and Shumpert separately and just eating the contracts of Felton and Smith. I think the way Jackson went pretty much had to be the way once they locked Melo in, as that sort of prevented them from even possibly thinking of extending the rebuild (as his age and the lack of the 2016 pick made going all in in 2015 almost a necessity). So with that in mind, dumping Felton and Smith were fairly big priorities (the mistake, of course, was dumping Felton only to end up with Calderon, who might be an even bigger albatross of a contract).

    41. DRed

      Hibbert averaged 13 and 10 in the playoffs against us. He outplayed Tyson, but I mean, come on.

    42. Brian Cronin

      Yeah, the “he did poorly in the playoffs against Hibbert that one year” is especially weak, considering the fact that, of the recent Knick top guys, Chandler’s the only one who actually won a ring. And he did so via shutting down a no-name like Lebron James in the NBA Finals (Chandler’s defense on James directly led to James learning how to play in the post, which was always his achilles heel and which he then turned into his greatest strength – man, Lebron is amazing. Can you imagine something like that? It’d be like Shaq becoming an 90% free throw shooter).

    43. DRed

      I guess my larger point is that even if Roy Hibbert absolutely demolished Tyson Chandler in a single playoff series while Tyson was totally healthy, it still wouldn’t diminish Tyson’s value. If we as a collective unit learn one thing from that series it should be that team should not make roster decisions based on a single playoff series result, because that leads you to doing wildly stupid shit solving the Hibbert problem by making a trade that ensures you don’t have to face Hibbert in the playoffs anymore by not making the playoffs.

    44. er

      No, Chandler is definitely not one of top players in the NBA. He is not one of the top-5 centers in the NBA, either. Evaluating Chandler based on efficiency, number of blocks or stats alone is not going to lead anyone to the truth.

      The proper way to look at Chandler is this: a solid defensive player worthy of starting for any team in the NBA (this is where the numbers are good and useful). A great value at 14M per year, a not-so-good value at more than that, a terrible value at 20M per year (this is the part of the picture that numbers cant provide).

      So, it doesn’t matter whether Chandler is better than Hibbert, worse than X , doesn’t shoot from 20 feet or never misses from 1. All that is noise. The whole picture requires taking into consideration factors like stats, contract, fit, etc.; that’s the way to properly evaluate a player. Mozgov made Cleveland much better, even though he is not much more than an average player. He brings a lot of value to Cleveland, more than he would bring to New York, for example.

      Formula is simple: numbers + contract + fit = accurate picture.

      Great Post

    45. Eyal

      I don’t necessarily buy the mega max Melo as a gravity center that forces you to go one way or another. The chances of the Knicks becoming a contender in the near future are slim regardless of the Melo decision Jackson made, and he probably knew that.

      I think signing Melo was mostly a business decision – he’s a marketing cornerstone. Can he also be part of a New York contender? Too many moving parts to know. But he’s always going to be the “star” season ticket holders are looking for.

    46. Z-man

      @50 I agree.

      My feeling is that Jackson rushed into the Chandler trade because of most, if not all of these hypothetical reasons:

      a) he wanted to make a big splash upon getting the job
      b) he desperately wanted to participate meaningfully in the draft, which was touted as being historically deep
      c) he desperately wanted to dump Felton and JR
      d) he felt that Calderon was a better fit for the triangle with Melo and for the culture he was trying to build (he described Calderon as a “thoughtful” point guard, a not so subtle jab at Felton.)
      e) he felt that Dalembert was close enough to Chandler to be offset by Calderon being better than Felton
      f) he felt that Chandler had already checked out of the locker room, and would not take well to learning the triangle, which highlighted his weaknesses and de-emphasized his strengths
      g) he worried that Chandler might not stay healthy and if he got hurt, he wouldn’t get anything back for him

      All of these reasons make sense to some degree. At the time, I was OK with the trade, mostly because I worried that Chandler would get hurt. I was also sour on Chandler because of the Hibbert abuse (come on, DRed, he was vastly outperformed by Hibbert…you can blame Woodson for some of it, but we all watched every second of that series, wasn’t it obvious?) and the checking out last year. Looking back, I agree that we could have gotten more for him, but even that was a risk.

    47. DRed

      I’m not sure why Tyson is not a top 5 center. Because he’s a great fit on the Mavs who puts up terrific numbers for a decent price? Who are the top 5 in CL land?

    48. Kahnzy

      I’m not sure why Tyson is not a top 5 center. Because he’s a great fit on the Mavs who puts up terrific numbers for a decent price? Who are the top 5 in CL land?

      Correct me if I’m wrong, but I seem to recall a certain Captain claiming that Jackson should have shipped out Melo (something I’d have been on board with, by the way, so let’s leave the fanboy talk at home) and rebuilt around Chandler. When someone pointed out the Chandler made it pretty clear he wasn;t interested in a rebuild, this Captain then went out of his way to provide evidence to the contrary.

      And now he’s…what? Somewhat above average? A good, but not great, player? Why build around that?

      For the record, I was ok with the trade at the time. Not good, but not terrible either, and I would have loved to have gotten more for him and shipped out Melo to truly rebuild from the ground up.

    49. DRed

      As for Mozgov, he’s obviously the same person as he was in Denver. I doubt he suddenly got much more skilled by flying from Denver to Clevealnd. But the Cavs have made much better use of Mozgov’s skills-he’s dunking the ball a lot more, so his attempts at the rim and his FG% on shots at the rim are up drastically. All his other stats with Cleveland are in line with his career averages. I don’t know what this says about Mozgov’s value in a vacuum. Is he, say, better than Mason Plumlee (a guy who I think could play the Mozgov role in Cleveland effectively)?

    50. Z-man

      As to tanking, I agree, Brian, that Phil had no intention of tanking. At the same time, I disagree with anyone who believes that Phil was trying to improve the team for THIS year by trading Chandler. He clearly said that this was not a “contending” team, but that they could compete for a playoff spot in the East because the East was so shitty. He didn’t talk about a top seed, a division title, a deep playoff run.

      Did he miscalculate? Absolutely, and I said as much on the eve of the season (check back, the usually rosy Z-man was the voice of doom based on what I saw in preseason.)

      But Calderon got hurt right out of the gate, Melo got hurt in the first week or two, Shump and JR absolutely sucked, Dalembert disn’t come anywhere near his last-year numbers, Hardaway absolutely sucked on BOTH ends (maybe the biggest disappointment of all!), Jason Smith underperformed, and yes, Fisher looked like a deer in the headlights. The injuries are not to blame for not being a playoff team. So yes, Jackson had no intention of tanking and miscalculated by thinking that this team could compete for a playoff spot in the historically bad East.

      But at the same time, he didn’t hire an experienced coach, or keep Chandler around at the risk of getting nothing for him if he got hurt (I wonder, what the dialogue on this site have been if Chandler blew out his back and it was learned that Jax turned down that trade he made? Especially if Calderon put up similar numbers to last year in Dallas?)

      My hope (and I admit that it is hope, not expectation) is that Jackson is a quick study, learns from his mistakes, and doesn’t repeat them. My hope is that Melo comes back strong and plays at a high level for the next 4 years. My hope is that we draft a stud impact player and sign a couple of solid 2nd-tier FAs. I don’t believe that all is already lost for the next 4 years and beyond.

    51. thenoblefacehumper

      No, Chandler is definitely not one of top players in the NBA. He is not one of the top-5 centers in the NBA, either. Evaluating Chandler based on efficiency, number of blocks or stats alone is not going to lead anyone to the truth.

      Alas, only you, oh great one, are capable of evaluating players properly. What is Chandler’s Captain Luke Eye Test per 48 minutes (CLET48)?

    52. Z-man

      @58 I understand your thinking, but don’t agree that we had any chance of retaining Chandler, nor would we have wanted to for the money he would demand if he was good and healthy. As to what he said, what was he supposed to say at the dawn of the season? “I hate it here and want out!?” The odds of keeping him here at a reasonable price for an aging C was near zero.

      Chandler was not happy in NY anymore. Jackson and the triangle certainly weren’t gona make him happier.

      Marc Gasol just said that he has not ruled out NY yet. Does that mean there’s a chance that he’s coming here? Yes. But what are the odds?

    53. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      No, Chandler is definitely not one of top players in the NBA. He is not one of the top-5 centers in the NBA, either. Evaluating Chandler based on efficiency, number of blocks or stats alone is not going to lead anyone to the truth.

      The proper way to look at Chandler is this: a solid defensive player worthy of starting for any team in the NBA (this is where the numbers are good and useful). A great value at 14M per year, a not-so-good value at more than that, a terrible value at 20M per year (this is the part of the picture that numbers cant provide).

      So, it doesn’t matter whether Chandler is better than Hibbert, worse than X , doesn’t shoot from 20 feet or never misses from 1. All that is noise. The whole picture requires taking into consideration factors like stats, contract, fit, etc.; that’s the way to properly evaluate a player. Mozgov made Cleveland much better, even though he is not much more than an average player. He brings a lot of value to Cleveland, more than he would bring to New York, for example.

      Formula is simple: numbers + contract + fit = accurate picture.

      oh no you fucking didn’t

    54. johnno

      @25 and 38 — I’m the same age as you guys and a couple weeks ago I said that I hoped that the basketball gods would reward the Knicks for their effort against the Spurs. I just assumed that everyone would know what I was referring to. Are you now implying that people don’t use the term “hullaballoo” any more either? Geez, I’m getting old. (Is now a good time to confess that I once saw the Weather Girls sing “It’s Rainin” Men” live at Studio 54 or that I went to the Peppermint Lounge to see the Grandmaster Flash?)
      P.S. Today is a really weird day — I find myself in violent agreement with Captain Luke (at least with most of what he’s saying today).

    55. d-mar

      Centers I would take ahead of Tyson Chandler:

      Mark Gasol
      DeMarcus Cousins
      Nicola Vucevic
      Andre Drummond
      Al Horford
      DeAndre Jordan
      Joakim Noah

    56. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Okay, I’ll bite for real this time.

      No, Chandler is definitely not one of top players in the NBA. He is not one of the top-5 centers in the NBA, either. Evaluating Chandler based on efficiency, number of blocks or stats alone is not going to lead anyone to the truth.

      This is partially wrong. Will a few all-inclusive stats get at the “truth” of Chandler’s productivity? No. Are they better than your conjecture? Abso-fucking-lutely. You begin with your conclusion and fit the evidence to support it.

      The proper way to look at Chandler is this: a solid defensive player worthy of starting for any team in the NBA (this is where the numbers are good and useful). A great value at 14M per year, a not-so-good value at more than that, a terrible value at 20M per year (this is the part of the picture that numbers cant provide).

      No, the proper way to look at Chandler is:

      1) doesn’t take bad shots
      2) makes the shots he takes at a league-leading rate
      3) rebounds a lot (150% of league average at ORB this season)
      4) doesn’t turn the ball over often, which is because he does not hold the ball, which is a good thing for a C in today’s NBA (uh oh, conjecture!)

      So, it doesn’t matter whether Chandler is better than Hibbert, worse than X , doesn’t shoot from 20 feet or never misses from 1. All … much more than an average player. He brings a lot of value to Cleveland, more than he would bring to New York, for example.

      This is some ruru-level nonsense. You talk about how stats are noisy, and then you point to “fit.” A more reasonable explanation for Mosgov’s new, profound goodness is that he suddenly increased his dunk rate by 50%. If fit exists, it’s that coaches don’t know how to use players, hence drops in productivity. Chandler is good at things that have led to a fucking NBA championship. As evident in this year’s play, he’s still really fucking good at those…

    57. Brian Cronin

      I think “basketball gods” is a fine term…for fans. It’s not the same for the president of the team. To wit, any of us tweeting “That call was bullshit!” is normal, but it’d be weird for a team president to tweet it. That’s the weird thing about Jackson’s tweets, not the term itself.

      And, again, him tweeting ridiculous things doesn’t matter at all. It doesn’t change his ability as a president at all or how I think about the guy. But it is a weird thing that he does.

    58. lavor postell

      Centers I would take ahead of Tyson Chandler:

      Mark Gasol
      DeMarcus Cousins
      Nicola Vucevic
      Andre Drummond
      Al Horford
      DeAndre Jordan
      Joakim Noah

      I wouldn’t take the greatest two centers in the history of the NBA, Drummond and Jordan, over Chandler right now. I still think Chandler’s defense, now that’s he’s happy and motivated, is much better than either of those 2. I also would take Chandler this season over Vucevic. Long-term I’d prefer the other 3 but just on this year’s performance I give Tyson the edge.

      I would take Rudy Gobert over him.

    59. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      High usage iso players like Melo and Dirk typically draw more attention from the defense. That, at least in theory, should allow players like Chandler to get easier buckets. I say “in theory” because that hasn’t been the case with Melo, at least on a consistent basis. That could be a product of the talent around him though. Plus, free throws.

      And interestingly, the exceptionally-rare ability to be 7’1″ and a ridiculous leaper does nothing to draw defenses away from primary ball-handlers. It’s a one-way street, that Kobe Assist!

    60. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Wait, are people actually arguing that a player’s contract, age and character don’t matter? You’re talking about contract value, not player productivity. You could wax on about Dennis Rodman’s shitty attitude, but it wouldn’t change the fact that we’ve never seen a player better at rebounding than he was. That rebounding made him tangibly productive.

      And yes, Chandler absolutely is a top-5 center in today’s NBA. And his contract is expiring. And he’s playing a lot of minutes.

    61. thenamestsam

      A more reasonable explanation for Mosgov’s new, profound goodness is that he suddenly increased his dunk rate by 50%.

      But this actually isn’t an explanation. Or at least not a useful one. The fact that he’s dunking more is the way in which he is better than before, but it doesn’t tell us how it happened. Lets say I’m a GM of a team in need of a C (call them the Knicks) and I want to find a guy who can make a similar leap on my team, would your advice be “trade for anybody and then tell them to dunk the ball 50% more”? Obviously not. We need to know why he was able to increase his dunk rate by 50% in order to actually do anything with that information.

    62. stratomatic

      I think “basketball gods” is a fine term…for fans. It’s not the same for the president of the team. To wit, any of us tweeting “That call was bullshit!” is normal, but it’d be weird for a team president to tweet it. That’s the weird thing about Jackson’s tweets, not the term itself.

      And, again, him tweeting ridiculous things doesn’t matter at all. It doesn’t change his ability as a president at all or how I think about the guy. But it is a weird thing that he does.

      I hear you.

      It’s his personality. He’s known as a hippie type attracted to non mainstream ways of thinking.

      If he tweeted something that was a very professional sounding version of the same thing, it wouldn’t be Phil Jackson. For all we know, some of these idiosyncrasies have contributed to his success. In any event, I think we are should get used to it.

    63. Z-man

      Of all the players playing starters minutes (28+/game) Chandler has the lowest usage rate in the league. He bears virtually no responsibility for scoring relative to other players. The one miss that keeps him from being just OK TS%-wise has virtually no impact on the game. How many players have the luxury of being the absolute last starting player in the league to attempt a shot? It is amazing that anyone could interpret this as a positive, yet he has among the highest ORtgs in the league!

      This means that the other four players have that much responsibility for scoring every time that Chandler is on the court. True, Chandler makes “the team” more efficient by getting offensive rebounds so that those guys can have more attempts, but WP gives Chandler more credit for the basket than the rest of the team. If player X shoots and misses, Chandler taps the O-rebound out to him and player X then sinks a two, Chandler gets all the credit, and the player that shot 1 for 2 has a lowly TS% of .500.

      So, since Chandler’s TS% is historically high, but at a league-bottom usage, why doesn’t he take 4-5 more shots per game and still have an above league-average TS%? Wouldn’t he theoretically be taking those shots from players with lower TS%?

      Maybe we should look at rebounding stats the same way we look at shooting stats. Player X should only go after rebounds he has a high probability of corralling. He may only get 5 rebounds per 36, but he gets nearly every rebound he goes after. Maybe we should credit players who get hardly any assists, but their assist-to-potential assist ratio is high because they only pass to potential shooters who are dunking the ball.

      For all Chandler’s greatness, he has one championship, two trips to the second round (including one in the 2nd round where he was dubbed “Hibbert’s bitch”), and five quick first round exits , despite playing with maybe the greatest statistical PG of all time. But that’s all on the other guys, of course.

      Let’s see how this year’s playoffs turn out…

    64. Alecto

      CL I’m just curious as to why Chandler isn’t a top 5 center. What’s your reasoning? Also what’s your list of top 5 centers?

    65. Nick C.

      You mean like the utility of a f’ib snowshovel right now in the NYC area vs. in Florida?

    66. Alecto

      That didn’t answer the first part of my question unless you’re in the process of typing it up in which case continue.

    67. Donnie Walsh

      He’s known as a hippie type attracted to non mainstream ways of thinking.

      Yet he’s drawn to Twitter?

    68. johnno

      You know who ranks just ahead of LeBron James in the all- inclusive wp48 metric? Bismarck Biyombo. And a couple spots below him? Greg Monroe.
      Luke — nice olive branch at 13 on your list…

    69. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Btw, I know about stats, just don’t feel the need to endlessly debate the little cherry-picked angles that never get to the bottom of issues. I’m not a basketball measurbator. I don’t get too caught up in the numbers game; i give stats the proper use and place as an integral part of evaluating a player’s worth.

      Oh, you!

    70. DRed

      Joakim Noah is averaging 9 points per 36 minutes lololol.

      To put that in perspective, the 13th best Center in the NBA, Sir Cole D. Aldrich, GCB, is averaging more than 11 (with a higher TS%). Anyone who thinks Joakim Noah has been better than Tyson Chandler this season needs to stop watching sports center and read some fucking spreadsheets.

    71. DRed

      Biyombo’s Assists per 100 possessions have started trending upwards after 2 years on the decline. He’s increased his dimes 25% from .4 to .5 per 100 possessions. What does this bode for the future? Bismax Biyombo next year, anyone?

    72. er

      CL I’m just curious as to why Chandler isn’t a top 5 center. What’s your reasoning? Also what’s your list of top 5 centers?

      Not sure why a few of you are so shocked by this statement by the Captain. The center postion is definitely making a comeback

    73. Kahnzy

      Jesus Christ…there should be a rule against former players becoming color commentators. Or at least make them go to broadcasting school or something. Steve Smith is horrendous.

    74. Alecto

      Center is a strongish position but I think Chandler is clear top five material this season. What im really interested in is specifically hearing luke explain his reasoning for it–he’s been staying over and over how chandler is a poor fit beyond x amount of money and how hes clearly not top 5 material but I want to hear the reasoning.

    75. DRed

      If you want to argue that Tyson hasn’t been one of the 5 most productive centers in the league this season I sure can’t dismiss your argument out of hand, but I’d also be interested in hearing it.

    76. mura2337

      I love this site. We’re so bereft of good news Knicks stories that we’re arguing about Tyson Chandler. Best. Day. Ever.

    77. Z-man

      PS I agree that Chandler is a top 5 C this year, but he is pretty far from being a top-5 player in the league, which is what his WoW says he is. In today’s game, the difference between Chandler, Howard, Noah, Horford, and Jordan is negligible, even Mozgov, Whiteside, Gortat are just a minor step down. Gasol is probably the best. Horford is having a superb year, that team probably loses something if he were swapped with Chandler. A healthy Noah is better, but he hasn’t had a better year. If Cousins cherry-picked like Chandler did, he’d be way better, but he is what he is…a head-case chucker.

      In other words, (CONJECTURE ALERT!) the difference between #1 and #5-#10 at the C position is probably less consequential that the difference between the #1 and #5-#10 player at the other positions.

    78. Z-man

      On another note, I think if Minny wins one of their remaining 8 games, we’re a lock for the worst record. No way we can win 3 games, right?

    79. djphan

      the center position is about to see a major make over the next few years…. this draft class alone has about 8 to 10 who have some staying power… and that doesn’t include embiid who will make his debut next year… or the myriad of young guys who stepped up this year and making good progress…

      the center position at the moment is very homogenized but that’s due to the lack of consistently good post games.. whether that’s occurred through the rules or play styles or what have you…. that’s all going to change in my estimates…

    80. Z-man

      One guy who gets no love in this discussion is Jonas V from Toronto. He’s only 22 and is putting up very strong numbers.

    81. ess-dog

      Yeah crazy to think that Towns will be 3 years younger than that next year and that Melo has a no trade clause.

    82. DRed

      Amazing the slimey piece of shit that is Isiah Thomas is back on national TV. He’s like basketball rasputin

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