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Friday, December 19, 2014

Knicks Morning News (2014.08.04)

  • [New York Times] Sports Briefing | Pro Basketball: Minnesota Owner Says Trade of Kevin Love Is Likely (Mon, 04 Aug 2014 04:11:59 GMT)
    The Minnesota Timberwolves owner Glen Taylor told The St. Paul Pioneer Press that the All-Star power forward Kevin Love would most likely be traded to the Cleveland Cavaliers by Aug. 23 or Aug. 24.

  • 41 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2014.08.04)

    1. dtrickey

      Serious basketball lesson for Wiggins happening with this trade talk. Gone from being a big fish in a little pond to being a trade piece with another #1 pick for one of the better players in the league. Welcome to the NBA Andrew!

      Also talk of Marion going to the Cavs as well. Wouldn’t have hated the Knicks taking a look at him. Solid veteran presence and still relatively versatile and productive. This Cavs team (and my apologies for stating the bleeding obvious) is going to be basically Heat circa 2012-2013 2.0. Every handy and productive vet will go to Cleveland for peanuts to get a sniff of a Championship. There’s nothing wrong with that, it just feels we’ve seen this story before and not too long ago.

    2. DEFINITELY NOT JD & The Rim Shot

      There’s nothing wrong with feeling bad for Paul George. If you work all your life to be good at one thing, and someone’s careless groundskeeping takes away that one thing in a catastrophic way? C’mon, guys. Have a heart, here.

    3. DRed

      Cavs fans:
      If we don’t get dieng or Noel back in this trade then I am 100% against. Love is a want, not a need, and if we can’t roll out a lineup with a rim protector then I’d rather keep the youth. I wanna trade Dion Bennett and wiggins to get back Noel and Love so we can start Kyrie Miller Lebron Love Noel with one of the top benches in the league behind it. We keep the youth, while getting a better fitting team in the process

    4. Z-man

      Jowles, just about everyone has expressed that they feel bad about what happened to Paul George. Just about everyone has expressed that they hope he makes a speedy and full recovery. Nobody has expressed that they wished for it to happen, or that they are glad it happened.

      But what happened, happened. Many here have expressed that his injury, while disturbing, unfortunate and sad, might better the Knicks chances of making the playoffs as a silver lining thing. It happens all the time in sports, so I don’t see any moral quandary here. It’s a legitimate sports fan talking point. Turning it into some kind of morality litmus test is just plain stupid.

    5. dtrickey

      Kevin Love for Andrew Wiggins and Thad Young. Woof. Glad I’m not a T-Wolves fan

      Don’t forget Bennett. If you chuck a a few 1st rounders in there (from Cleveland and maybe Philly depending on the makeup of the deal) that’s maybe not so hard to stomach, but it’s still not great, considering what Cleveland will get back in Love and what it does for their Championship aspirations.

    6. Brian Cronin

      I really don’t get Shawn Marion’s willingess to take the vet minimum for a chance at a championship. He already WON one, he has nothing left to prove. And he is worth more than the vet minimum. Perhaps Indiana if they free up some more cap space (they have cap space right now, but not much more than the vet minimum)?

      There’s an interesting thing about Indiana and the Disabled Player Exception they can apply for – since it still counts for luxury tax purposes, I don’t think they’re even going to apply for it (it would give them the full MLE to spend on a free agent to replace George).

      By the way, if you’re Indiana, would you trade a first round pick and filler for Jeff Green at this minute? He seems like he’d fit them pretty darn well. But I guess his salary might be too high. But if salary weren’t a major issue, would you be willing to part with a first rounder for Green if you’re the Pacers?

    7. Hubert

      Jowles, just about everyone has expressed that they feel bad about what happened to Paul George.

      I don’t think that’s Jowles. If I’m not mistaken, I think we now have

      1. JD & the Rim Shot (formerly Sakei99)
      2. JD & the 18 foot contested Carmelo Anthony shot (Jowles)
      3. DEFINITELY NOT JD & the Rim (I have no idea who this is)

      Don’t worry, in a few days Jowles will be right about something and change his name and this will be cleared up.

    8. Hubert

      Kevin Love for Andrew Wiggins and Thad Young. Woof. Glad I’m not a T-Wolves fan.

      That is such a remarkably low return for a tremendous player. 40% of what they are getting for Kevin Love is hype. I would comfortably wager that Andrew Wiggins never makes an All-NBA team in his career. I hope they at least get a bounty of draft picks so the Cavs can’t make further moves. If they have enough assets left to add a rim protector to that team, it’s pretty much over in the East for the next 4 years.

    9. Hubert

      The Pacers are going to miss the playoffs next year, get a lottery pick, and come back strong the following year when George comes back and slowly works his way back into top form by the second half of that season.

      The Pacers as we know them are probably finished. Yes, they will get a lottery pick. But they won’t get to use that pick to supplement the strong team we know. They’ll be using it to try rebuild a new one. David West is 34 right now, and will be approaching 36 by the time Paul George is rounding into top form (assuming he does). Stephenson is gone. Vogel may not last the season and Hibbert is a free agent at the end of it.

      I’m not saying the Pacers as an organization are finished. They’re intelligent and they can certainly rebuild around George. But this incarnation of them is probably over.

    10. lavor postell

      @Hubert

      Hibbert actually has a player option worth $15.5m for next season which I think he’ll end up taking if he struggles, which I expect he will as he’s expected to carry a much heavier offensive load and also play over 30 MPG which he has struggled with throughout his career. I highly doubt Roy “my feelings are hurt” Hibbert is getting another max contract in his career given his mental fragility, pathetic rebounding and belief he’s an offensive juggernaut despite all evidence to the contrary.

      You’re right about this Indiana team being done though. They have George for the future which should still be a very nice piece to build around and after the 15-16 season, West and Hibbert come off the cap which shaves off $27.5m. That Scola trade now really looks terrible given that they could have definitely used Gerald Green, Miles Plumlee and their first round pick this season to bolster their nucleus moving forward.

    11. Hubert

      David West is probably going to be a highly sought after commodity at the deadline, and they will probably get a decent package for him. The sad part is their franchise is probably still in better long term shape than we are.

    12. Hubert

      Btw, Cleveland owns these two picks:

      2015 first round draft pick from Memphis
      Memphis’ 1st round pick to Cleveland protected for selections 1-5 and 15-30 in 2015, 1-5 and 15-30 in 2016, 1-5 in 2017 or 1-5 in 2018 or unprotected in 2019 [Cleveland-Memphis, 1/22/2013]

      2015 first round draft pick from Miami
      Miami’s 1st round pick to Cleveland protected for selections 1-10 in 2015 or 1-10 in 2016 or unprotected in 2017 [Cleveland-Miami, 7/9/2010]

      Minnesota better have acquired both of them.

    13. lavor postell

      I don’t know how sought after West will be. I don’t doubt there will be plenty of teams that would be interested in trading for him, but he makes $12m/yr over the next 2 seasons. The Pacers will be looking for some combination of cap relief, good young players and picks. I don’t know what kind of “haul” they’ll actually end up getting for him. They’re also owe George Hill $24m over the next 3 years which is funny.

    14. Hubert

      I seem to be talking to myself today, but I’ll go on.

      (EDIT: no offense, Lavor, didn’t see your posts.)

      Re: Cleveland

      Because they’re idiots, they already gave Kyrie one of their two allowable five year deals. LeBron took a two year deal with the intent of maxing out when the salary cap is expected to rise. LeBron, it’s fair to assume, is not going to be taking any discounts for Dan Gilbert. The second max deal has to be slotted for him.

      So when Kevin Love opts out after this season (and he likely will because an extension is so inferior to the contract he could sign when he opts out) the Cavs will not have any financial advantage in signing him due to the Kyrie deal. So is Love going to be willing to take the deal that Harden wouldn’t? That should be interesting.

      The CBA did a pretty good job of making the 3 max player model nearly unsustainable. It crippled the Heat and it prevented the Thunder big 3 from staying together. And those are two intelligent front offices. How are the nitwits in Cleveland going to figure it out if Pat Riley and Sam Presti couldn’t?

      It would be a simple enough problem to solve if they hadn’t (foolishly and needlessly) already committed the max deal to Kyrie. Then you could just give the megamax to the two players who deserve it (LeBron & Love) and if Kyrie isn’t happy making less than the megamax you can trade him and find fairly equal value because, while good, he’s just not on the level as the other two. But with him already taking one of those slots, the Cavs will be faced with having to convince one of their top two players to take less money because their 3rd best player is maxed out.

    15. Hubert

      I don’t know how sought after West will be. I don’t doubt there will be plenty of teams that would be interested in trading for him, but he makes $12m/yr over the next 2 seasons.

      Right on cue, Zach Lowe has an article up about players of West’s ilk.

      I have a lot of respect for West as a player, but you may be right. His skill set is sought only by a select few teams.

    16. lavor postell

      @Hubert

      I guess it’s just me and you on here right now. The only advantages Cleveland will have are being able to offer high annual raises and obviously the chance to dominate the East for the next 5 years.

    17. DRed

      From that Lowe article:

      “That means any big man who can’t protect the rim defensively had better be able to get the hell out of the way on offense, working as a long-distance threat around the pick-and-rolls that dominate the NBA.”

      Why? What if you can’t protect the rim on defense but you’re a devastatingly effective low post scorer?

      To give credit where it is due, though, Lowe is dead right when he agrees with me about Aminu.

    18. SJK

      I’m a big Lowe fan but I don’t think he really said anything in that article. It read like a list of players like Fareid and Thompson. I was expecting him to look more into how these types of players were effective within an offense, but aside from a view Trevor Booker clips he didn’t do too much of that.

    19. Hubert

      I don’t think that statement, Dred, is his opinion. But rather he is stating the current prevailing sentiment in the NBA.

      Further down the line, he adds “The league might be fetishisizing the 3-point shot, especially among big men, at the expense of other skills”, and he also states that these players may be the new market ineffeciency.

    20. Frank

      Lowe’s article was a little scattered by his usual standards — but I left that article thinking man, peak Rasheed Wallace was just a beast. He and Ben Wallace were just freaking perfect together.

      And – I know he doesn’t count as any sort of a rim protector, and I know that I ask this every offseason, but why in the world doesn’t Amare work on being a 3 point shooter? With his post and PNR skills, adding a 3 point shot at a league average % would make him valuable in any offense.

    21. Hubert

      I had the same thought, Frank. I remember he was attempting that a bit in his second year before he got injured and MDA quit.

      Then he went and improved his post game, which, to his credit, was pretty awesome. I don’t think the days of Amar’e being useful are over. I think he’ll have a decent final act at a fair cost somewhere.

    22. GoNyGoNYGo

      Hubert,
      I think you are correct about Amar’e but I don’t think he needs the 3pt shot. His mid-range jumper is lovely and opens the floor for the real 3pt shooters.

      As far as the statement “The league might be fetishisizing the 3-point shot” it has me dreaming of some team coveting Bargs. I can dream, can’t I?

    23. Hubert

      Oh, I agree @26. I think Amar’e actually fits the mold of the power forwards that Lowe was talking about in that article. And when someone gets him on a cheap one or two year deal next year, I think he’ll actually be a valuable NBA player for a bit. Kinda like McDyess’ final act.

    24. DRed

      Amare’s combination of high efficiency scoring and brutally terrible defense would really fit better if he was coming off the bench for a strong defensive team. He’d be great at a low price for some squads. He’s just a really bad fit on the Knicks right now. Who knows-maybe we’ll be able to dump him on a contender at the deadline.

    25. Hubert

      As far as the statement “The league might be fetishisizing the 3-point shot” it has me dreaming of some team coveting Bargs. I can dream, can’t I?

      I mean, he’d have to actually make some 3 pointers.

    26. yellowboy90

      @24

      In the workout videos on STAT’s Instagram he seems to be practicing shooting 3s but those are just short clips. Who knows if he is jacking up 3s like a Ray Allen workout.

      I do wonder about the spacing in the triangle if Melo plays the 3. How do the keep the spacing(15-18ft) if Melo is posting up?

    27. Brian Cronin

      I do wonder about the spacing in the triangle if Melo plays the 3. How do the keep the spacing(15-18ft) if Melo is posting up?

      Won’t Melo be mostly playing the the 4 in the Triangle?

    28. Brian Cronin

      The Spurs just keep on being awesome. They just hired Becky Hammon as an assistant for this upcoming season.

    29. yellowboy90

      I don’t know I thought Phil said he wanted a traditional line up. Maybe I am mistaken.

    30. danvt

      Turning it into some kind of morality litmus test is just plain stupid.

      Z-Man
      Since you still seem to be taking shots my way, just go ahead and answer my question:

      Do you want to see LBJ against NYK or would you rather have him sit with flu like symptoms?

    31. Z-man

      dan, this is such a pathetic question. You have failed miserably to make a case for your ridiculous premise (and the ridicule has been well-deserved) that it is somehow morally questionable to even bring up the notion that an opposing player’s unexpected injury might benefit a team in terms of rankings and playoff possibilities. You are clinging to the equally ridiculous premise that any success the Knicks might enjoy this year is tainted and therefore not worth celebrating, and even worse, that one is guilty of some kind of blasphemy if he doesn’t label the entire season with an asterisk. You are truly beating a dead (high) horse.

      What will you ask next: would I rather see the Knicks win a championship with a starting lineup of LeBron, Durant, Dwight, Melo and CP3, or of Gallo, Lee, Nate, Shump and Lin? Did I enjoy the Dream Team more than the Miracle on Ice? Sheesh.

    32. danvt

      You are clinging to the equally ridiculous premise that any success the Knicks might enjoy this year is tainted and therefore not worth celebrating, and even worse, that one is guilty of some kind of blasphemy if he doesn’t label the entire season with an asterisk. You are truly beating a dead (high) horse.

      No, I’ve said repeatedly that I don’t feel that way.

      What will you ask next: would I rather see the Knicks win a championship with a
      starting lineup of LeBron, Durant, Dwight, Melo and CP3, or of Gallo, Lee, Nate, Shump and Lin? Did I enjoy the Dream Team more than the Miracle on Ice? Sheesh.

      No, you’re putting words in my mouth. And, for some reason you refuse to answer my question. It’s a simple enough question.

    33. Farfa

      Actually I understand what danvt is saying.

      Even though I don’t think winning against a weakened opposition is less worthy, I totally understand the pride in saying “We won against the absolute best”, and I also understand that there is a certain kind of bad schadenfreude that sometimes goes in the way of sportsmanship.

      That said, danvt, I’m not sure the guys on this board are saying that Indiana deserved to lose Paul George to injury or that their loss is a sweet thing. I think they’re just saying what the majority of sports fans think: mors tua, vita mea. This is true in life, also.

      You know how hard is to win something in the NBA? All things equal (and they’re not), you have a 3.33% chance to win a Championship any given year. If by any chance you increase that to a 5% or 6%, you are a very lucky team and you shouldn’t worry about anything else (real Knicks situation: increase from 0,01% to 0,20%. Still, there is a sudden chance to make the playoffs with slightly better odds). Every Champion gets a few breaks along the way, just as in real life you get where you are because of luck or a lack thereof.

    34. bidiong

      Here’s my take on the PG thing for what it’s worth. When it comes to major life events that effect careers there’s always going to be a benefit to someone or something in the destruction. Because of PG getting hurt either a free agent or the guy behind him is going to get an opportunity to showcase their skill set to teams around the league due to an increase in playing time. This is good for that player. As a tertiary benefit to teams around the league they get an easier draw possibly when they face the Pacers which could allow them to rest certain players more, etc… Even though nobody was watching that game hoping PG gets hurt, the benefits still occur. There’s no reason to not talk about the ramifications of the injury in regards to the Knicks or be obligated to feel bad about talking about the ramifications of an injury.

      If you work at a company and the guy one position above you comes in and discloses he has stage 4 cancer and is leaving work you obviously feel awful for that person and their family.
      You also submit your resume for that position when the posting comes out for it the next week. Does that make you an asshole because you’re benefiting from someone’s prospective death? It absolutely does not and nobody would tell you to not improve your own financial standing in honor to the sick individual who left.

    35. Nick C.

      There is a difference between chortling and simply stating Indy will be worse and that will make it easier for the Knicks to make the playoffs or remove a higher seed from the equation.

    36. Z-man

      Farfa, bidiong and Nick C,
      Thanks for the very intelligent and thoughtful responses. What pissed me off is that danvt bastardized his interpretation of some commentary to conclude that some here were “happy” that PG got hurt, and even implied that we sat around wishing injury on opposing players because that would improve the Knicks chances. What actually set me off was when he called out Brian Cronin for saying the following:

      “Glen Taylor of the Wolves specifically said that he expects a Love trade on either the 23rd or the 24th, which is when Wiggins can be traded. So yeah, it’s pretty much an inevitability that Love is going to Cleveland. Luckily, with Indy seemingly out of the playoff mix (or at least out of a top seed), there is a lot of room there for that #3 or #4 seed. Perhaps even the Knicks!”

      I mean, WTF? Brian and I have had some heated disagreements (see: Jeremy Lin) but I (and I think most guys here) consider him to me as honorable as anyone who posts on KB. Do you see anything wrong with what he said?

      danvt went on to equate such talk, i.e. discussing how the Knicks’ situation might have been improved as a by-product of PG’s injury, with showing up to an aunt’s funeral in a Porsche one rushed out to buy with the inheritance money.

      And now he’s trying to justify this narrow-minded and judgmental view by asking inane questions like he did in #34. Seriously, who cares what I would rather see? Is the answer to that question really any kind of litmus test for someone’s character?

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