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Wednesday, October 22, 2014

Knicks Morning News (2014.08.03)

  • [New York Times] Paul George’s Injury Fuels Concerns in N.B.A. Over International Competition (Sun, 03 Aug 2014 00:09:22 GMT)
    The league receives global exposure through such play but gets few tangible benefits, and team owners worry about injuries to players they have invested a lot of money in.

  • 110 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2014.08.03)

    1. JD & The Rim Shot

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GFb_ZoGr1g

      Watch as $90 million blow up in a handful of seconds.

      Pretty hilarious how the NBA has no problem fining it’s own players for playing in the Philippines, citing unsafe working conditions. But has no problems with players suffering career threatening injuries in their home country, as a result of a non-regulation basket stanchion, then raising it’s hands in the air and going “shit happens” and “it could’ve happened anywhere”.

    2. flossy

      Pretty hilarious?

      First of all, nobody is saying “oh well, shit happens.” Who the hell suggested the league has “no problem” with players getting injured? Everyone associated with the NBA has shown great concern for Paul George. Are you proposing they just up and cancel Team USA’s participation in the WBC because of what was, in fact, a pretty random accident? Short of being packed up in bubble wrap from June through October, nothing will 100% prevent players from getting injured in the offseason, so it’s a matter managing risk and prioritizing playing opportunities. It could, indeed, have happened anywhere, but but representing your country on the international stage is typically considered a big enough honor that players are willing to risk it. I have no idea why you’re casting aspersions at the NBA over this.

    3. JD & The Rim Shot

      First of all you contradict yourself, when you say something could happen anywhere, anytime; you are in fact using the very definition of the “shit happens” defense. So thanks for agreeing with me there.

      Secondly, no, it was not by any definition a random accident, let alone a “fact”. The stanchion was closer than regulation distance. If that stanchion was two feet further back like it is in nearly every NBA court, this doesn’t happen. So no, it doesn’t happen anywhere. And when it happens because of failure to follow regulations specifically made to prevent incidents like this, that’s called neglect.

      Are you proposing that Filipino people are sub-human and don’t deserve the gift the of NBA basketball that Americans are entitled to? And if representing your country on the international stage is so important why are players being fined for playing in the Philippines?

      And yes it’s hilarious has no problem chastising other countries safety conditions, then immediately lose a player because it failed to follow it’s own. It’s pretty downright hypocritical.

    4. JD & the 21-Foot Turnaround Fadeaway Carmelo Shot

      Are you proposing that Filipino people are sub-human and don’t deserve the gift the of NBA basketball that Americans are entitled to?

      I… uh… what…

    5. Kahnzy

      Are you proposing that Filipino people are sub-human and don’t deserve the gift the of NBA basketball that Americans are entitled to?

      I… uh… what…

      I thought the same thing. Where JD#2 got from, I’m not sure. But I’ve noticed he has a tendency to put words in other people’s mouth (or hands in the case of a blog) and then triumphantly proclaim an unassailable counter-argument (in his mind anyway) that leaves everyone a bit baffled as to what exactly he’s arguing against.

    6. johnno

      I never like seeing a pro athlete’s career get derailed by injury and I feel really bad for Paul George. I don’t feel bad for Pacer fans (and I don’t imagine that they felt so bad for us when Chandler broke his leg). The truth is that, over the last four years, except for Granger, I don’t think that they’ve had a single rotation player miss 10 games in a season. They’ve been the luckiest team in the league health-wise by far.

    7. danvt

      except for Granger

      You mean, this is the second franchise player for IND in the last five seasons that has sustained a season ending career threatening injury and they’ve been relatively “lucky”?

      Rooting for the competition to get hurt is just plain downright sucker-ish and people on this blog should know better. Especially in the wake of something this horrific. I’m calling you out, Brian Cronin @ #9 yesterday. (I get it, but) REPENT!

    8. Hubert

      I have nothing against Paul George and it’s unfortunate when anything bad happens to any person.

      But, um, yeah, this is kinda awesome from the perspective of “I dislike the Pacers” and “hmm, that’s one less playoff team to worry about.”

      And the timing of it is perfect, too. If this had happened a month ago they would have resigned Stephenson.

      Anyway, sorry Indiana, the stanchion may not have been in position but it was vertical, and we know that’s all that matters.

    9. DEFINITELY NOT JD & The Rim Shot

      I don’t understand how a fan can say, “I’m glad that the conference is weaker so the Knicks might go further into the playoffs.”

      Would it be cool if the Knicks went 82-0 against Div. III opponents? Is winning that important?

    10. Z-man

      Being glad that an unfortunate break happens to work in the knicks favor is a far cry from wishing for an opposing star player to get injured. Nothing we say, do, or feel will un-injure PG’s leg. The reality is, it’s a bad break that helps the Knicks and hurts a rival team.

    11. Kahnzy

      To be honest, the reaction to George’s injury has been a bit over the top anyway. Don’t get me wrong, his injury doesn’t really make me happy nor do I salivate at the opportunity it presents (which, it doesn’t because Cleveland and Chicago are still around and were better than IND was going to be anyway). However gruesome it may have looked, though, he broke his leg. Painful, and even possibly career ending or career altering, but still just a broken leg.

      People are acting as if he might never walk again and he’s some sort of great war hero or something. The guy broke his leg. And he’s going to be paid tens of millions of dollars still. Maybe it’s just me and maybe I’m just an asshole, but there are people who are far more deserving of your sympathy and prayers (for whatever they’re worth) than multi-millionaire with a broken leg Paul George. It’s an unfortunate accident and I’m never happy to see a star athlete taken out in his prime (if indeed he’s even done), but he still has a very good life ahead of him and ample means to support his family for generations.

    12. lavor postell

      I feel no guilt about the Knicks potentially benefitting from another team’s misfortune. I never wish a player suffer a severe injury and I hope Paul George has a full recovery. At the same time if it benefits the Knicks that’s something I’ll be okay with. Not sure how that’s remotely close to the Knicks hypothetically playing D-III opposition for a season.

    13. Hubert

      I don’t understand how a fan can say, “I’m glad that the conference is weaker so the Knicks might go further into the playoffs.”

      Actually I said I’m glad the conference is weaker bc the Knicks might actually make the playoffs. I wouldn’t expect them to win a round regardless.

    14. JD & The Rim Shot

      But I’ve noticed he has a tendency to put words in other people’s mouth (or hands in the case of a blog)…

      Wow. That’s something. This is coming from someone who , totally unprovoked, has called me “deluded”, “blind”, “oblivious” repeatedly insinuated I’m stupid. Then had the temacity to call me contentious, even though I never once made it personal with you. But it’s ok because when you insult me “it’s not personal”.

      I tried ignoring it and keeping the conversation focused on basketball. You kept insulting me. I asked you politely to stop. You say its not personal then insult me more. Then you pull this “#2″ snide ass remark while again calling me contentious, seeing if I’ll bite. Despite however contentious you might think I am, I never once insulted your character or made it about it you. You seem to have no such qualms however. But yea keep being an asshole (you got me to bite. Congrats!) and see how that goes.

      As for the other remark, yea it was hyperbole, I thought that was obvious in its extremity. Most of your counter, seemed to suggest that I was against Team USA, that I insinuated pulling players, or that I didn’t want them on the international stage, despite never once bringing up Team USA or anything of the sort. I thought it was pretty clear from the Philippines remark, I love seeing NBA players take their game globally. I thought it was a leap in logic to go from the NBA really fucked with there own safety regulations (while calling out an entire country), to he wants to baby the players and not see them play for their country.

      And despite what you said as “fact”, it wasn’t a freak accident. This never would’ve happen on an NBA court, specifically because they build them exactly so that this doesn’t happen. For someone to have to go thru that becuz of neglect and casual oversight. It’s not right and never should’ve occurred.

    15. DEFINITELY NOT JD & The Rim Shot

      The reason that the Giants’ 2008 and 2012 wins were so delicious is because they beat the very best teams in the league on their way to a championship.

      You want the Knicks to win at any cost instead of winning through adversity and strong opposition. I think that’s pretty weak. It’s just a uniform, bro.

    16. danvt

      But, um, yeah, this is kinda awesome from the perspective of “I dislike the Pacers” and “hmm, that’s one less playoff team to worry about.”

      it’s a bad break that helps the Knicks and hurts a rival team.

      I feel no guilt about the Knicks potentially benefitting from another team’s misfortune.

      I really respect you guys and am having a hard time believing what I’m reading. Here’s my take. When you win, you want it to be legitimate. The Knicks winning in ’94 would have been great but always would have had that little asterisk. No MJ. Let’s say the Knicks get the #8 seed and play CLE in the first round. Both LBJ and Love break down in freak accidents and can’t play. We win. Do you feel as proud?

      Everybody knows you don’t root for people to get hurt and to be the best you want to beat the best. You guys are saying the opposite.

    17. Hubert

      18 & 19, you guys are pretty funny, comparing the 2014-15 Knicks to two Super Bowl winning teams and talking about wanting to beat the best to be the best.

      I’m talking about being an 8 seed and getting year 1 of the PJ era off to a decent start.

      And yeah, I think it’s good f

    18. Hubert

      or us if one of our competitors is weakened, possibly long term.

      I don’t recall San Antonio bemoaning the fact that Dwayne Wade was practically crippled, nor do I think it cheapened their accomplishment.

      You think Germany feels winning the World Cup after Brazil lost Neymar and Argentina lost DiMaria makes it less special?

      In general, I am happy when bad things happen to our rivals, despite the fact that the human being in me wishes Paul George no harm. FYI, they’re happy when bad things happen to us, too. No one in Indiana apologized for beating us because we had an immobile Tyson Chandler and Carmelo Anthony was playing with a torn labrum, did they?

    19. lavor postell

      You need good luck to win a championship and injuries are a part of that. I don’t particularly care if there’s an “asterisk” next to a championship run because of injuries to an opposing team mostly because I think that nobody remembers that shit over time.

      Does anybody preface Hakeem leading Houston to 2 rings by saying that Jordan was retired? Does anybody question the validity of the Lakers’ 2009 title because Kendrick Perkins misses game 7? Does anybody care that the Pistons’ 1989 title came against an injury ravaged Lakers team? If the Knicks won in 94 or in a lockout shortened 99 season I doubt anybody would remember anything other than that they were champions.

      It sucks for Indiana that they lost Paul George but nobody in even 5 years time would remember the Cavs or Bulls or any other potential Eastern Conference contender any less because the Pacers dealt with an injury to their best player.

    20. dtrickey

      As nasty as the PG incident was I found myself watching it a few times. It’s certainly pretty bad, but I kind of think Kevin Ware’s break from last year was harder to watch.

      I don’t think anyone would actually want an opposition player to ever go down with a serious injury. However, as much as we all want to beat the best teams at their best, none of us could honestly say that we would dismiss winning say a playoff series because a key guy from the opposition was hurt. Whilst we never want to see it happen, as opposition supporters, we can’t say we’re devastated he’s out for a while.

      Hopefully he has a speedy recovery. It’s good for the sport to have the best in the league out on the court rather than cheering from the sidelines. From all reports, he’s going to make a full recovery after successful surgery, it’s just he’s going to be out for a while.

    21. danvt

      18 & 19, you guys are pretty funny, comparing the 2014-15 Knicks to two Super Bowl winning teams and talking about wanting to beat the best to be the best.

      No, I’m talking about sportsmanship.

      I don’t recall San Antonio bemoaning the fact that Dwayne Wade was practically crippled, nor do I think it cheapened their accomplishment.

      Yes, injuries are part of the game. Sometimes they diminish the achievement of the victor, depending on the context. In fact, they always do unless you look at staying healthy as part of preparation for an athlete, which sometimes it is. SAS still achieved much but it would have been a better accomplishment had a healthy Dwade shown up.

      No one in Indiana apologized for beating us because we had an immobile Tyson Chandler and Carmelo Anthony was playing with a torn labrum, did they?

      No, but everyone clearly misjudged how good they were based on that series win (among others). The world found out last season that they were less badassy than they seemed. So, they were lying to themselves if they thought they had withstood NYK’s best shot. Just like we’d be lying to ourselves thinking we’re better than anyone missing their top player.

      Great, the Knicks can beat IND now! Bargnani for President. Do you think there’s a Knick who might make the all star game in Paul Georges place? That’d be awesome.

    22. johnno

      @9 — I think that, if you check the numbers, you will find that, over the last four years, the Pacers have been one of the healthiest teams in the league. Name one important guy other than Granger who has missed 10 games in a season. I don’t think you’ll be able to do it. And then think about how many major injuries the Knicks – and every other team in the league – have suffered in that same time period. Kobe, Rose, Westbrook, Horford (twice), Lopez (twice), Amare, Chandler, Shumpert, Martin, Wallace, Davis, Felton, Bargnani, etc. etc. Hell, the Knicks had two guys blow out their ACLs in one playoff.

    23. Hubert

      Does anybody question the validity of the Lakers’ 2009 title because Kendrick Perkins misses game 7?

      You mean besides Bill Simmons and every Celtics fan I know?

    24. Hubert

      No, I’m talking about sportsmanship.

      You act like I’m dancing bc he got hurt.

      Every time a player gets injured we all have to do a collective circle jerk about how horrible it is and you never want to see that happen and blah, blah, blah, while inside we all think about how it impacts our team but can’t say it bc PR police come out and talk shit to you for not being sportsmanlike.

      But only if it’s certain players on certain teams in certain sports. I mean, no one shed a tear for the ’99 Knicks when they lost Patrick Ewing en route to the finals. But this is the small market pacers in the corn-fed Indiana so it’s somehow more of a travesty than when Amar’e Stoudemire gets injured for the Knicks.

      Look, it sucks for Paul George. But we should be able to talk about how this affects the Knicks on a Knicks website, and it’s a positive development for us. I think this injury is going to do to Indiana what Rose’s injury did to Chicago for two years. Combined with the loss of Stephenson, I can’t see them being credible threats for a while.

      Unfortunately we are too far away from contention to really benefit from this in any significant way other than in our chase for the 8 seed. So I’m pretty sure you don’t have to worry about how the championship we win will be less sweet bc Paul George got hurt

    25. lavor postell

      You mean besides Bill Simmons and every Celtics fan I know?

      I think every Knicks fan I know questions the validity of the Pacers beating us last season. NBA fans and media as a whole though clearly do not. That was my point. Not what a team’s fans directly impacted by an injury to key player thinks.

      But only if it’s certain players on certain teams in certain sports. I mean, no one shed a tear for the ’99 Knicks when they lost Patrick Ewing en route to the finals. But this is the small market pacers in the corn-fed Indiana so it’s somehow more of a travesty than when Amar’e Stoudemire gets injured for the Knicks.

      Exactly. If it was Melo instead of George there’d be platitudes given to how this is an awful injury, but then the Knicks would be beaten with the stick of this being the risk you take when you make a long-term commitment to a player. I doubt there’d be much sympathy for us and that’s fine. I don’t expect Pacers, Bulls and Nets fans to give a shit about our players getting injured.

    26. Z-man

      danvt, I don’t know how to say this respectfully, so I’ll just say it: I never read a bigger crock of holier-than-thou BS on this site than what you are trying to sell here. I don’t think a championship is EVER diminished because of injury to an opposing player; it is a pure historical accomplishment that is the culmination of dedication that is hard for the non-professional athlete or coach to fathom. Winning a championship also usually requires some luck, whether benefiting from an opponent’s injury or avoiding injury on your team, getting a lucky call or an opponent getting a bad call, getting a lucky break or an opponent getting an unlucky break, etc. Some have even involved cheating…stealing signs (Thompson vs. Branca), steroids (Yanks w/ Clemens and/or A-Rod) illegal videotaping (Patriots.) But no one lucks their way into a championship, you have to put yourself into the position to have the lucky breaks make the difference.

      If we had won in 1994, the furthest thing from my mind would have been whether we had to get past Jordan or not. Did I relish the ’69 championship more than the ’73 championship? Yes, but not because of whether the Lakers were fully healthy or not (PS: they weren’t either time.) I doubt that Lakers fans care that Isiah hurt his ankle, or Spurs fans cared that Ewing blew out his achilles or when Bowen took out Nash, or Jets fans cared that Johnny Unitas tore a muscle in his arm.

      I understand that a team with lots of championships (Yanks, Lakers, Bulls, etc.) might relish certain ones above others on the basis of what they overcame in a particular season, but truly don’t get the mentality that would tarnish any major athletic accomplishment because an opponent was missing due to injury. You can only beat the players who show up.

    27. Z-man

      I should also say that I have no problem with anyone feeling otherwise. I only have a problem with being judgmental about those who feel differently than you do on this issue, and making it some kind of referendum on someone’s character or intelligence. Which is implied in comments like “No, I’m talking about sportsmanship” and condescending stuff like “Great, the Knicks can beat IND now! Bargnani for President. Do you think there’s a Knick who might make the all star game in Paul Georges place? That’d be awesome.”

    28. danvt

      Z-Man,
      Those things are all crucial. Jordan not playing, Isiah turning his ankle. Yeah, winning is nice but that doesn’t lessen the impact of those events and it does change the outlook on a winning team when you look at the circumstances of that win.

      This is a statistically based blog. Now I’m reading that it just doesn’t matter who plays for a team because beating everybody is the same. So, you’ll really relish beating Deng and the Heat, I guess?

      I’m sorry if I seem holier than thou but I guess in this case I am. You are literally happy when someone good can’t play anymore. That makes my skin crawl.

    29. lavor postell

      @danvt

      If you want to play that game then virtually every championship winning team should have an asterisk next to it.

    30. Z-man

      “I’m sorry if I seem holier than thou but I guess in this case I am. You are literally happy when someone good can’t play anymore. That makes my skin crawl.”

      I’d be embarrassed to write something like what you just did because it clearly indicates a fundamental lack of understanding of what was being said (even though it was not particularly complicated.) I’ll dumb it down for you:

      I think breaks (such as injury) are an integral part of sports.

      When breaks happen, as they inevitably will, I am less upset when they happen to a team that I don’t root for than when they happen to a team I root for. This is especially true when it happens to a team that is a rival. (if less upset=more happy, whatever.)

      Example: I was far less upset when Paul George got hurt than I was when Bernard King got hurt.

      I’ll go out on a limb and guess that there are some decent people who feel the way that I do. Maybe that’s why you started @19 with “I really respect you guys and am having a hard time believing what I’m reading.” If people who you otherwise “respect” feel this way, then maybe you should be more respectful in having a discussion with them. Otherwise, you are not someone whose respect I would value very much.

    31. Z-man

      “Yeah, winning is nice but that doesn’t lessen the impact of those events and it does change the outlook on a winning team when you look at the circumstances of that win.”

      No it doesn’t. It changes YOUR outlook. But you’re entitled to your opinion.

      “This is a statistically based blog. Now I’m reading that it just doesn’t matter who plays for a team because beating everybody is the same. So, you’ll really relish beating Deng and the Heat, I guess?”

      Yeah, I will really relish beating the Heat, Pacers, and every other team in the league. Maybe true Heat fans (if there are any!) should just not root for their team, since it can’t possibly match the last 4 years. Tell you what, maybe I’ll stop rooting for the Knicks at all until they are in the finals against a genetically engineered reincarnation of the 1987 Lakers. I mean, even in 1969-70 we didn’t beat the greatest statistical team of all time at full strength, so what a hollow feeling I have about that series now that you’ve cleared things up for me. In fact, I’m just gonna watch replays of the 1980’s Celtics-Lakers finals over and over again.

    32. CaptainB

      Why is this injury being treated differently than any other player? It is a terrible injury and it sucks for him and Indiana, but why am I reading about Paul George risking life and limb?

      The over reactions to this injury are plain silly. Maybe the Knicks should forfeit their games against the Pacers next year because they feel bad.

    33. Owen

      I think the difference in this case is that Paul George may never play again. In the space of a gruesome second he went from All NBA to probable has-been, unlike with say Amare or Brandon Roy, who were in gradual decline for years.

      We’d all be delighted if he got a crippling flu in the middle of a playoff series. But no one wants his career ended by his leg exploding. We’re all fans of the game and no one can be happy about not getting to see Paul George play ball anymore.

      It is interesting how different the reaction to this has been as opposed to the Derrick Rose injury. Just strange how different it feels having happened outside of an NBA game.

    34. danvt

      @33 You’re right Lavor, but there’s a difference between saying that and saying, “Great, we we’re lucky Jordan didn’t play in ’94 because it made it easier for us to beat the Bulls”. That’s what you’re saying now. You’re glad Paul George is hurt, plain and simple. You don’t believe your team is good enough so you relish the misfortune of other teams.

    35. Z-man

      @38, that’s not what is being said at all. You are now purposely distorting what other people are saying to hoist yourself up on some kind of moral pedestal, which is a strangely ironical.

    36. Z-man

      Owen, I have yet to read any diagnostic analysis that even suggests that Paul George will never play again. Sure, it is a remote possibility, but no more so than it was in the case of Derrick Rose, and perhaps less so.

      I agree that more is being made of the injury. I think that it is somewhat because of the fact that it occurred outside of an NBA game, and that he’s one of the leagues best young stars on a final four team, but that the bigger factor is the horrific visual impact of seeing someone’s leg snap in two. Knee injuries are a bit less nauseating (although Baron Davis’s was pretty gruesome.)

      I’m not “delighted” that it happened, nor would I be if he had the flu under the circumstances you described. But would I rather beat the Pacers without George than lose to them with George? Every day of the week and twice on Sundays. That’s wa-a-a-ay different than “delighting” in another’s injury/illness or wishing harm to come upon him.

      You can only play the guys you have in uniform and you can only beat the guys the other team has in uniform. Such is sports, past, present, and future.

    37. lavor postell

      @danvt

      I never said that, but I’m not too upset if any potential roadblocks on the path to whatever our goal is this year are made less imposing though. I feel bad for Paul George, but as a Knicks fan I’m okay with conference competition dealing with injury issues and chemistry problems we’ve had to deal with in the past without feeling any remorse for it.

      @Owen

      Almost every prognosis of George’s injury so far suggests he should be able to resume his playing career. Brian Hartline, WR for the Dolphins, sustained an identical injury before starting his college career at OSU and he’s come back strong from it. Every case is different and I’m not a doctor so I have no clue what his chances are of making a full recovery, but the consensus seems to be that he’ll still have a lengthy career.

    38. danvt

      “Tell you what, maybe I’ll stop rooting for the Knicks at all until they are in the finals against a genetically engineered reincarnation of the 1987 Lakers.”

      You’re kidding right? You think this is what I mean? I’m happy when the Knicks can beat anyone. I was pissed when the summer league Knicks couldn’t beat summer league CHA. I was really rooting for a summer league championship, and didn’t care who was or wasn’t playing or why, but did I want to see PJ Hairston get injured so it could happen?

      I’ve certainly been there, I’ll admit that much. Shit, I hoped Bargs would get hurt and he plays for us! But in the wake of this injury, and Owen summed up nicely, I just thought it was gigantically callous for you guys to take that POV.

      It’s one thing to benefit from the chaos of an NBA season. It’s another to hope that everyone gets worse or express happiness over a great athlete’s extreme misfortune.

    39. Z-man

      “It’s one thing to benefit from the chaos of an NBA season. It’s another to hope that everyone gets worse or express happiness over a great athlete’s extreme misfortune.”

      Here’s where you go off the rails. No one on this blog, and I mean no one, expressed hope that other teams would get worse specifically due to injury. Any opinions about the effect of this injury on the Knicks’ fortunes were after the injury occurred.

      Many on this blog, however, hoped that other teams would get worse due to losing players in free agency, bad trades or front office mismanagement. Is that immoral as well?

    40. danvt

      Here’s where you go off the rails. No one on this blog, and I mean no one, expressed hope that other teams would get worse specifically due to injury.

      except for you and Lavor and Hubert.

      Any opinions about the effect of this injury on the Knicks’ fortunes were after the injury occurred.”

      So, it’s OK to be happy about it once it’s happened but not before it happens?

    41. danvt

      “Many on this blog, however, hoped that other teams would get worse due to losing players in free agency, bad trades or front office mismanagement. Is that immoral as well?”

      Oh yes definitely. This is the logical extension of my point of view. You nailed it.

    42. danvt

      No one on this blog, and I mean no one, expressed hope that other teams would get worse specifically due to injury.

      But would I rather beat the Pacers without George than lose to them with George? Every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

    43. lavor postell

      I expressed happiness? You make it sound like I’m ecstatic that George is out for the year and suffered a gruesome injury. I feel bad for him, but I don’t really give a fuck about the Pacers and it improves the Knicks chances of maybe accomplishing a second round appearance this year if we get our shit together and capitalize on lack of strength in the East. I didn’t realize that’s a crime.

    44. CaptainB

      No offense danvt but You are way off base on understanding what people are saying. Way off base.

      You are having a real comprehension problem.

    45. dtrickey

      Knee injuries are a bit less nauseating (although Baron Davis’s was pretty gruesome.)

      Shaun Livingston’s was pretty nasty to see also. I also rate Bogut’s elbow a few season ago with the Bucks as one of the nastier one’s I’ve seen in basketball. In short; sports injuries are pretty shit.

    46. danvt

      I was far less upset when Paul George got hurt than I was when Bernard King got hurt.

      That’s disingenuous, you aren’t upset at all about George’s injury. If King had played for the Pacers you would have been happy about his injury. You said plain as day that you’re happy when players get injured and when teams get worse as a result because you want it to be easier for your bad team to be more successful. I’m frankly offended that you could react the compound fracture of a national treasure in such a way. (Or that a Knicks fan would have so little cojones.) That doesn’t make me Ghandi but I couldn’t let it go.

    47. danvt

      “I feel bad for him, but I don’t really give a fuck about the Pacers and it improves the Knicks chances of maybe accomplishing a second round appearance this year if we get our shit together and capitalize on lack of strength in the East. I didn’t realize that’s a crime.”

      I’ll just let you guys keep making my point for me. I really couldn’t say it better than you just did.

    48. Z-man

      Please refer me to the post where I (or Brian, Hubert, lavor) said or even implied “I hope Player X gets injured so that our chances of winning are better.” If you can’t find one, then what does that say about you?

      And no one expressed any glee in PG getting injured. You are grossly misleading in this insinuation. I’m happy that the Knicks have a better chance of making the playoffs. It’s a shame that it is because of George’s injury, but the fact is, our chances are improved and I’m happy about that fact. If someone could magically heal George’s injury at the Knicks expense, I would be happy about that, but that’s not gonna happen, so I choose to move on and deal with the realities of being a basketball fan. Players get hurt, sometimes it helps my team, sometimes it doesn’t; I feel better when it doesn’t. If that puts me in the same moral sub-basement as the likes of Brian, lavor and Hubert, I can live with that.

    49. Z-man

      “No offense danvt but You are way off base on understanding what people are saying. Way off base.

      You are having a real comprehension problem.”

      +1000

    50. lavor postell

      I’ll just let you guys keep making my point for me. I really couldn’t say it better than you just did.

      Thanks bro. Please point out in that statement where I said I’m happy that George got injured. I’d prefer if he didn’t get hurt because that’s a shitty thing to hope for, but in the event he does I’ll concentrate on how that can potentially benefit the Knicks. I guess it makes you a better person than me that if by some miracle the Knicks made the ECF this year you’d put an asterisk next to it because George got injured and it made our path easier, while I’d probably be celebrating at a bar with some buddies that we won multiple rounds in the playoffs.

    51. Z-man

      lavor, should this occur, can I join you and your fellow Satan worshipers in hoisting some devil’s brew? Brian, Hubert, you in?

    52. danvt

      Paul George is a national treasure?

      Not many can play SF for team USA. Yes, national treasure.

      And no one expressed any glee in PG getting injured. You are grossly misleading in this insinuation. I’m happy that the Knicks have a better chance of making the playoffs. It’s a shame that it is because of George’s injury, but the fact is, our chances are improved and I’m happy about that fact.

      OK, so you’re not gleeful just happy.

      Please refer me to the post where I (or Brian, Hubert, lavor) said or even implied “I hope Player X gets injured so that our chances of winning are better.”

      You just said it. I found where you said it. It’s in your quote here and it’s in this thread over and over. Before or after the fact makes no difference. I want to beat IND with Paul George. I feel cheated that we don’t have that opportunity. You said and implied, as did those other guys, that this is some kind of lucky break for NYK. I totally disagree and I’m surprised that guys I read and respect would A.) say it (and so soon, really tacky) and B.) go to the mat defending it.

    53. max fisher-cohen

      It’s more satisfying to win at monopoly against your friends than to win at monopoly against your eight year old and his friends. You might even brag about the former, but you’d look like a bum to brag about the latter.

      If an insane Knicks fan poisoned all the Knicks’ opponents’ top players for all 82 games and then the entire playoffs, allowing NYK to win each game easily, would that be meaningful?

      To me, it’s perfectly legit to say that the significance of a your success is directly proportional to the level of your competition. I mean, if the KNicks had the chance by some quirk in the universe to play in the NCAA tournament, would they? Should they? Would you want them to?

    54. Owen

      If the injury is a temporary setback, and he’ll be back full strength in a year, it’s a much different conversation I guess.

      I still have a hard time putting this in the generic sports injury bucket with the Tanaka TJ say or any other. It’s a little different for a few reasons….

    55. danvt

      Thanks bro. Please point out in that statement where I said I’m happy that George got injured

      Look, it sucks for Paul George. But we should be able to talk about how this affects the Knicks on a Knicks website, and it’s a positive development for us.

    56. Z-man

      “Before or after the fact makes no difference.”

      To you, it makes no difference. To me, it makes all the difference.

      “Not many can play SF for team USA. Yes, national treasure.”

      Less of a national treasure to me than a great parent, teacher, police officer, nurse, etc., but whatever. If you choose to glorify highly-paid entertainers, so be it.

    57. lavor postell

      I didn’t say that.

      Also that statement doesn’t imply joy over the injury, simply that it potentially makes life easier for the Knicks this season.

    58. johnno

      I’ve been away for a few days so I may have missed part of the story. Are we talking about the Paul George who supposedly slept with Hibbert’s “side piece” and is in a paternity dispute with a stripper or the Paul George who broke his leg stepping on a land mine while trying to rescue kidnapped girls from terrorists and fights a never ending battle for truth, justice and the American way? National treasure. Yeesh.

    59. lavor postell

      It’s more satisfying to win at monopoly against your friends than to win at monopoly against your eight year old and his friends. You might even brag about the former, but you’d look like a bum to brag about the latter.

      If an insane Knicks fan poisoned all the Knicks’ opponents’ top players for all 82 games and then the entire playoffs, allowing NYK to win each game easily, would that be meaningful?

      To me, it’s perfectly legit to say that the significance of a your success is directly proportional to the level of your competition. I mean, if the KNicks had the chance by some quirk in the universe to play in the NCAA tournament, would they? Should they? Would you want them to?

      Paul George is one player on one team. If the Knicks have any success this year it’s not going to be simply because Paul George got hurt in a Team USA scrimmage. They’ll have to compete and win against teams that are not the Pacers. I’m not happy about Paul George being injured but it could potentially provide a marginal benefit to the Knicks and I’m okay with that.

    60. danvt

      .I didn’t say that.

      Sorry about the misquote.

      “Also that statement doesn’t imply joy over the injury, simply that it potentially makes life easier for the Knicks this season.”

      Did you say that? Is the implication that this is not necessarily a good thing? Is it a neutral thing?

    61. dtrickey

      I think there’s a bit of perspective that needs to be considered, and I think the point was raised earlier. Given the Knicks haven’t won a chip since the early 70’s, does a championship mean any less to us if we had have beaten someone without a key guy? Hell no. I think where such asterisks probably have more weight is when you have teams like say a Chicago of Lakers who won several within a generation and you are looking to rank them.

      I’ll be the first to say that you always want to playing and beating the best, but if the Knicks were to win a Championship against say OKC sans a Westbrook or Durant for whatever reason, I am still partying and celebrating my arse off.

    62. Z-man

      “It’s more satisfying to win at monopoly against your friends than to win at monopoly against your eight year old and his friends. You might even brag about the former, but you’d look like a bum to brag about the latter.

      If an insane Knicks fan poisoned all the Knicks’ opponents’ top players for all 82 games and then the entire playoffs, allowing NYK to win each game easily, would that be meaningful?

      To me, it’s perfectly legit to say that the significance of a your success is directly proportional to the level of your competition. I mean, if the KNicks had the chance by some quirk in the universe to play in the NCAA tournament, would they? Should they? Would you want them to?”

      max, do you really think that these are meaningful comparisons? I honestly give you more credit than that and think you are just being argumentative.

      George’s injury knocks the Pacers down a couple of pegs, but it hardly turns them into a NCAA team. Injuries like this happen every year to one team or another, sometimes to several key players on one team. The affected franchises still manage to suit up a NBA-caliber team. When Knicks fans were trying to eke into the playoffs last year, did any of them care that Horford was out for the season with an injury? I certainly didn’t.

      Tell me, max, would you have felt cheated if the Knicks beat the Rockets in ’94 (they were among the weakest title teams ever, no?) and not have gone through Jordan to do it?

    63. danvt

      OK, thanks for the spirited debate guys. I see where you’re coming from. I’ve been there myself but I think you’ve twisted yourselves into knots trying to justify a mean spirited and weak willed POV. I see I won’t change your minds, though.

      I loved it when the 2007 Giants beat one of the best teams in history in the Superbowl. It wouldn’t have been the same if Brady and Welker hadn’t played. I wouldn’t have minded seeing them knocked from the game because of clean hits. In that case it would have shown the dominance of the D-Line. Clyde Frazier used to do finger tip pushups to keep from jamming fingers. LBJ seems impervious to injury and it’s part of his greatness. Lack of fitness from the other team? Can’t answer the bell? Our own guys play through the pain? The other team doesn’t show that much courage? It’s all good. But being happy about an opponents freak accident? And let’s admit it, you guys have expressed this idea over and over. That’s just too much. Ewing was disappointed he didn’t get a chance to beat Jordan in 94! He wasn’t relieved. Is Lebron hoping Tim or Manu or Tony will be injured next year so it will be easier to win a championship? No he wants to rip their throats out (metaphorically speaking).

    64. danvt

      And one more thing (why not? could I be more of a pariah at this point?) Winning a championship is always a great achievement. There are very few cases where an asterisk is truly apropos. I’ll be totally psyched if we beat an OKC team featuring Hasheem Thabeet and Reggie Jackson. You always have to beat real NBA players who are excellent to win a championship. I never said a NYK championship would be tainted by this injury. Only that there’s no good that comes from this. This sucks in every way. I wanted to beat this guy, not to avoid playing him.

    65. Will the Thrill

      Nobody here is happy that PG got injured. Some of us are happy about the result which comes from this (better chances for the Knicks).

      Danvt’s mindset is puzzling to me. Here’s an alternate scenario that mirrors the PG situation:
      Say my Aunt passes away and leaves me some money behind. I didn’t want my Aunt to die, and I certainly am not happy about it. It just so happens though, that I am struggling to pay my bills and survive on my own. Is it immoral to be thankful/grateful/happy about the money that she left behind after the fact? Or should I feel unhappy about the money and just burn it because of how it came to be? Just because there is some beneficial result doesn’t mean that I have to be happy about what led to it.

      One injured player on a team that won’t even contend for a championship anyway will not take away from whoever wins the title this year. You can be upset about him getting injured (which I think all of us are) but don’t expect everyone to be upset about the Knicks improved chances this year.

    66. Z-man

      “Is Lebron hoping Tim or Manu or Tony will be injured next year so it will be easier to win a championship?”

      Yeah, right, LeBron was actually devastated that his team beat the Spurs in 2013 when Manu was a shell of himself. In fact, I think he tweeted that he felt much better this year getting his ass kicked by the real Spurs team. Didn’t you see that look of satisfaction on his face when he checked out of the game with 6 minutes left and his team down 18 points?

      But you keep trying to make sense, preacher dan. Your arguments are quite logical and compelling, if you do say so yourself.

    67. max fisher-cohen

      @ Z-Man. It’s not about feeling cheated. Maybe the extremity of my example was distracting.

      How about this: let’s say you go to the carnival, and there are two of those things where you bash the hammer into a plate, and it gives you a score on your strength. One is 5% easier than the other. You do 5% better on the easier one than the other. Which are you more proud of? Neither, right? It’s the same thing.

      To me, if the EC is 5% easier without George, then the Knicks have to do 5% better than they would have with a healthy George for me to be equally excited.

      I feel bad for George, but just looking at the two situations (healthy and unhealthy George) as a Knick fan, the difference means nothing to me.

    68. Nick C.

      In non-schadenfreude Knicks news did anyone else read the Daily News blog by THJ yesterday where he, to me, gushed about being taught principles of defense by Thibodeaux while with Team USA.

    69. danvt

      Say my Aunt passes away and leaves me some money behind. I didn’t want my Aunt to die, and I certainly am not happy about it. It just so happens though, that I am struggling to pay my bills and survive on my own. Is it immoral to be thankful/grateful/happy about the money that she left behind after the fact? Or should I feel unhappy about the money and just burn it because of how it came to be? Just because there is some beneficial result doesn’t mean that I have to be happy about what led to it.

      What these guys wrote is the equivalent of showing up to the funeral in a Porshe.

    70. danvt

      But you keep trying to make sense, preacher dan. Your arguments are quite logical and compelling, if you do say so yourself.

      Do you have a kid that plays sports Z-Man? Would you want the best player on the team he’s playing to get injured and not continue so that your son could win easier? Oh no of course not! You’re not a poor sport. But, if it happened, would you talk about what a good break he got on the way to Friendly’s after the game? What are you teaching him in this scenario? That winning against inferior competition is better than losing to a better team? That he’s not good enough to win with both teams at full strength?

      Parents have been teaching these lessons to kids for generations. “May the best man win”, “It’s not whether you win or lose, it’s how you play the game”. I didn’t make up these arguments, but yes they are compelling and logical.

    71. CaptainB

      What you are doing is the equivalent to reading a word in a dictionary, making up your own meaning to it, and then using that new meaning to craft a sentence.

    72. Z-man

      I would feel bad for the injured kid and happy my son won. I would tell him that breaks, including injuries, are a part of sports. When they happen to you, try to overcome. When they happen to the opponent, take full advantage. If he won, I would tell him he beat the best tram available to play.

      I guess in your narrow world, I should tell my son to quit because hr can no longer beat the beat possible team. Or that he should repent if he feels good about winning.

    73. Z-man

      PS dan, your comparative scenarios are incredibly lame. Maybe you feel that we should give the Sixers a trophy even though they finished last. Or that coaches should play the 12th guy on the bench because, hey, winning isn’t everything.

      And again, you conflated how to react to an opponent’s injury after the fact with actively hoping for an opponent to get injured beforehand. Not sure why you even bring up the latter, since it has never applied here.

    74. DRed

      The Knicks are going to be mediocre at best next year with or without national treasure Paul George in the NBA. We’re not going to the ECF without a lot more injuries. Indy is probably going to suck next year, but what does that make us? A win better? Two?

    75. Z-man

      @75, that makes more sense, max. Similarly, I would expect the Knicks to do better in the EC than if they were in the WC but don’t feel the least bit bad that the EC is a relatively weak conference.

    76. Hubert

      Here’s the thing:

      The Knicks aren’t winning anything. At all. I just want to talk about this outside the context of “Oh my god this is a tragedy.”

      It’s not a tragedy. I’m ambivalent at best and would like to discuss this in the context of how it impacts the Knicks. When Kevin Ware broke his leg playing for Louisville while making no money and being exploited by one of the most corrupt organizations in America, that was something to feel for. When Marcus Lattimore broke his leg playing for South Carolina, came back and broke his leg again, I felt for the kid and his family. That was a travesty. This is a megamillionaire with a guaranteed contract who broke his leg.

      Also, this isn’t like Bill Walton breaking his foot. We’re not being denied the pleasure of watching a transcendent player develop. Paul George is a third team All NBA guy. His defense is overrated and his offensive game is limited.

      So to me, PG breaking his leg is 1,000,000,000,000,000,000th most tragic thing that happened last Friday. I think I should be able to talk about the fact that, while I’m in no way glad it happened nor would I ever hope for anything like that to happen to anyone except Paul Pierce, I’m pretty happy that the Pacers are fucked and their fans and their fans are heartbroken because I really don’t like the Pacers and I especially dislike their fans.

      If that breaks up the narrative that some of you not only want to be a part of, but want to force on everyone else, so be it.

      Godspeed, Paul George. And suck it, Indiana.

    77. johnno

      “I just want to talk about this outside the context of “Oh my god this is a tragedy.”
      I agree. Reggie Lewis was a tragedy. Hank Gathers was a tragedy. Len Bias was a tragedy (albeit self-inflicted). Paul George’s injury was a bad break (literally and figuratively). It looked gruesome, but I think that it’s safe to say that it was a whole lot less gruesome than watching a player actually drop dead on the court. Guys get injured all the time and sometimes really good players suffer really bad injuries. I feel bad for George, but I feel a whole lot worse for the kid from Baylor who had his dream of an NBA career derailed when doctors discovered that he had the same congenital defect that killed Lewis and Gathers. Can we please stop with the “how dare you speak ill of a national treasure” nonsense?

    78. Donnie Walsh

      if the KNicks had the chance by some quirk in the universe to play in the NCAA tournament, would they? Should they?

      Knicks didn’t match up well with North Dakota State. They would have high picknrolled us to an early exit.

    79. Hubert

      Hey, johnno, you busy friday? Me, Lavor Postell, Z-Man, and Brian Cronin are hosting poker night in our moral sub-basement. Your comments qualify you for inclusion.

    80. Farfa

      While I agree that winning against unlucky or stupid competition is less rewarding, all I have to say is that I can say to my grandsons I saw my country win the World Cup (in 2006) thanks to a very stupid headbutt that negated the presence on the field of the best opposing player in the last 10 minutes. And that (as a neutral fan, nevertheless) I was happy that San Antonio won game 1 of last year Finals and LeBron cramped up.

      Not happy about the injuries or the stupidity, but happy about the increased chance to win.

    81. Farfa

      winning against unlucky or stupid competition is less rewarding

      Sorry, I intended to write “…competition is theoretically less rewarding”.

    82. lavor postell

      How awful is Indiana going to be to watch next year offensively? They might challenge some records for offensive ineptitude. I’m personally excited to watch them run offense through Hibbert as he gets pushed off the block out to 18 feet by a guy giving up 5 inches and 70 pounds.

    83. Hubert

      And in this world cup the USA advanced from the group of death in large part because Cristiano Ronaldo was injured and playing at about 60% of his normal effectiveness. Which I guess explains why so few people left their moral sub-basement to gather in public spaces to watch us play Belgium in the second round.

      But maybe that was ok bc Cristiano Ronaldo is a bit of an asshole and Portugal is a foreign country, and Paul George is a national treasure from America’s heartland.

      I don’t know the rules.

      And again, the point isn’t about whether this will diminish anything the Knicks accomplish because we are VERY unlikely to accomplish anything. The point, to me, is about whether or not we’re permitted to discuss this in a different context than the one the national media is pushing on us.

    84. johnno

      “Your comments qualify you for inclusion.
      I have a confession. I laughed at your joke about the stanchion being vertical. I’m so ashamed.

    85. GoNyGoNYGo

      I haven’t had a chance to throw my 2 cents in on this so I will.

      1) I feel sorry for Paul George and the $15.8M he’ll collect from his wheelchair next season.
      2) I don’t feel bad for any team that loses a player or two or three. Them’s the breaks.
      3) I am glad the Knicks now have a slightly easier path to the playoffs and the Eastern Conference title. This in no way minimizes the accomplishment. I’m sure that nobody in Miami thinks that their accomplishments over the past two years were trivialized because D.Rose was out.
      4) The bad news is that Indiana will have a higher pick in next year’s draft and they get to couple it with the return of Paul George.
      5) I’m all for these “exhibition” games. The Yankees lost Mark Teixeira last year because of a bad swing in the World Baseball Classic. Crap happens. That’s life.

    86. danvt

      Gosh everyone hates me. Lonely me. I guess I’m not invited to poker.

      I didn’t read one thing on George in the national media. I don’t think this is a tragedy. I say national treasure just because the odds on getting another athlete like that are 1/1,ooo,ooo,ooo or probably longer. Being an honest good cop is slightly easier, though no less laudable.

      Captain B seems to think I’m having a problem understanding your argument. Let me know if I’m right as I sum up the subtle nuances.

      You feel bad for Paul George as a person.
      You feel not bad about how this changes the landscape in the eastern conference.
      You feel a victory is a victory and the quality of the opposition doesn’t change the quality of victory.
      You feel that I’m putting myself above you for disagreeing on points two and three.

      How’d I do, Captain?

    87. Z

      eternal damnation for you!

      Z-Man’s spot in hell has been set ever since he defended Dolan for not matching the Lin offer… He has nothing to lose in rooting for the stanchion vs Paul George!

    88. Z-man

      “Z-Man’s spot in hell has been set ever since he defended Dolan for not matching the Lin offer… He has nothing to lose in rooting for the stanchion vs Paul George!”

      et tu, Brut-Z?

    89. johnno

      I think I’ll go over to a Philadelphia Eagles or Dallas Cowboys blog today to see if they are lamenting the fact that David Wilson’s year — probably his career — are over because of his neck injury. I feel much worse for Wilson than George for two reasons — (1) I’m a Giants fan and (2) Wilson has made a whole lot less money than George and his contract isn’t guaranteed. Somehow, I feel like the folks in Philadelphia and Dallas don’t give a crap about David Wilson.

    90. danvt

      Johnno,
      I don’t doubt that injuries are part of the game and it’s true that most go by unheard of by the casual fan. Some change the equation greatly and some do not. I just think it’s not GOOD for anyone when the guy who’s ahead on the depth chart suffers an injury and can’t continue. The home fans don’t get to see him play. The away fans miss it even more because they don’t see him on a regular basis. I’d be really disappointed if I had tickets for CLE and LBJ didn’t play. Away fans really want to see their team beat a great player in a great game of major consequence. That’s the ultimate.

      Seems like the status quo is well against me here but I needed to make a stand against all the glib, “well I hate IND anyway” quotes. Can’t anyone else see what I’m talking about?

    91. Hubert

      Gosh everyone hates me. Lonely me. I guess I’m not invited to poker.

      Not at all, danvt. I actually appreciate you adding something to the discussion. I disagree with most everything you said about this topic, but I’m glad you said it because it contributed to a lively conversation.

      You are welcome to play poker with us moral degenerates any time you want.

    92. thenoblefacehumper

      I have a confession. I laughed at your joke about the stanchion being vertical. I’m so ashamed.

      I cracked up reading it on my phone and probably looked really weird to anyone looking.

    93. danvt

      You are welcome to play poker with us moral degenerates any time you want.

      Thanks, I’m not above it.

    94. MSA

      Good,

      Now that the discussion is settled, let’s return to discuss Melo’s mega contract! ;)

    95. stratomatic

      The Pacers are going to miss the playoffs next year, get a lottery pick, and come back strong the following year when George comes back and slowly works his way back into top form by the second half of that season.

    96. danvt

      OK, I realize I’m beating this to death now but I’d like some posters that I haven’t heard from and maybe even some moderators (Silverman, c’mon man throw me a bone here) to weigh in.

      You have tickets to see CLE at NYK. LBJ is missing the game with “flu like symptoms”. Are you pissed or are you happy?

    97. Kahnzy

      You have tickets to see CLE at NYK. LBJ is missing the game with “flu like symptoms”. Are you pissed or are you happy?

      Happy if we win, though I’d be happier to beat them with LBJ, but I’d still be really happy to see the win.

      But really pissed if we lost. Even more so than I’d normally be for fairly obvious reasons.

      But remember Melo’s 50 against the Heat at the end of the 2011-2012 season? Miami’s Big 3 were all sitting as rest before the playoffs. Doesn’t mean I didn’t enjoy that game immensely. Would it have been better had Melo dropped 50 on LeBron? Sure. But it was still awesome to watch and I still thoroughly enjoyed it, with or without their best players.

    98. Alecto

      No matter what Hubert, Z-Man et al. are saying I think the basis premise of their argument (something like: one can be happy about fortunate event y, that arose from unfortunate event x, without being happy that unfortunate event x occurred) is sound. The Knicks winning the chip (lol) or getting the 8th seed because of no PG isn’t really a diminishing of their accomplishment, or the diminishment is infinitesimal at best. The Knicks winning the chip or getting the 8th seed because CLE lost LeBron in a freak accident is a slight diminishment of their accomplishment but still not enough to make me gloomy about our success. The Knicks winning the chip or getting the 8th seed because every other team’s top 2 players get knocked out with season-ending injuries is a huge diminishment of accomplishment and is deserving of an asterisk. Strings of events like the 3rd one never, ever happen. I see little to no reason to feel bad about the Knicks possible success next season just because PG is injured. So I’ll be pretty happy with that possible result of the PG injury, even if I feel bad for PG and feel bad that I don’t get to see a good player develop for a year.

    99. danvt

      No matter what Hubert, Z-Man et al. are saying I think the basis premise of their argument (something like: one can be happy about fortunate event y, that arose from unfortunate event x, without being happy that unfortunate event x occurred) is sound.

      That’s not my argument, nor is it my question.

      As to my argument, I’m still happy when the Knicks beat IND. I don’t feel bad about them beating IND. I just think it’s less of a quality win without PG and I’d rather beat them with PG than without him. I think it’s dishonest for a fan to talk out of both sides of his mouth. I’m sorry for him but this is good for us. If it’s good for us than you’re glad it happened and you can’t convince me you don’t want things like this to happen.

      As to my question. Take a moment to simply answer it. Do you want to see LBJ play or do you want him out to give NYK a better chance to win?

      Just because more people say something doesn’t make it right.

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