Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Friday, October 24, 2014

Knicks Morning News (2014.07.05)

  • [New York Times] Sports Briefing | Basketball: Ginobili Suffers Stress Fracture (Sat, 05 Jul 2014 04:15:41 GMT)
    Manu Ginobili has a stress fracture of the lower fibula of his right leg, the San Antonio Spurs said.

  • [New York Times] In Reversal of Earlier Strategy, Knicks Ply Anthony With Cash (Sat, 05 Jul 2014 00:41:23 GMT)
    After being told he would have to accept less to build a winning team at the Garden, Carmelo Anthony was reportedly offered a maximum contract by the team president Phil Jackson — $129 million over five years.

  • [New York Daily News] Carmelo Anthony expected to return to Knicks as NBA waits on LeBron James (Sat, 05 Jul 2014 02:51:45 GMT)
    NBA free agency has been put on hold as the Knicks wait on Carmelo Anthony and the entire world waits on LeBron James, whose future may or may not be tied to Anthony’s.

  • 115 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2014.07.05)

    1. Frank O.

      Sorry. All these comments to marginalize Phil Jackson’s CV are just stupid.
      Red Auerbach was a 9-time NBA champion. Nobody derides him for having Bob Cousy, Ed Macauley, Bill Sharman, Bill Russell, Tom Heinson and KC Jones, John Havlichek, Sam Jones, and Bailey Howell, all Hall of Fame players. Indeed, most of you don’t even know some of those guys, yet they were considered some of the very best, if not the best, in their position in their day.
      People revere Red Holzman, but his Knick teams had Hall of Famers Clyde, Reed, DeBusschere, Lucas, Bradley, Jackson, Monroe and Bellamy on his teams and he only managed two championships.
      In Chicago, Jackson had Rodman, Jordan and Pippen.
      In LA, he had Kobe, Horry, Shaq, Gasol, and Ron Artest (Metta), who was an off the bench guy. I think one could argue those guys are hall of famers. Gasol and Horry maybe a bubble guys. But Rick Fox won’t make it, I don’t think.

      Great coaches always have great players. Not all great players win championships; not all great coaches win championships.

      So when a guy wins as many championships as Phil Jackson has won, you simply say: he’s a great coach, and in his case, he’s won more championships than any other. Indeed, one can argue that his last two championships were his greatest, when just judging the talent he had on his team.

    2. johnno

      Interesting thread yesterday. Strange phenomenon — Knicks offer Amare a bad contract and fans get mad at the team. Knicks offer Melo a bad contract and people get mad at Melo. By the way, I’ve been a big Melo supporter but I will be disappointed in him if he doesn’t give the Knicks at least a 15 million dollar “discount.” On another note, if I ran a team, I’d be pretty pissed if my fiancé were trying to take my best player.

    3. Loathing

      Did I read that right? “…expected to return to Knicks…whole world waits for Lebron James, whose future may or may not be tied to Anthony’s.”

      Anyone else pick up on that?

    4. MSA

      Johnno you are probably right.

      Amare have more of a free pass than Melo for most of the fans.

      It’s undeniable that he is more charismatic despite all his flaws on the court that are much worse than Melo. And that’s a big part of it.

      But there are some differences between both contracts. Amare came here as a free agent when we had a ton of cap space. Melo/CAA/Dolan kind of ripped the team apart to sign here. He also opted out of his actual contract to get even more money one year before the season when the Knicks would have a lot of flexibility.

      I will not judge the fact that he wants more money. I would do the same and Amare, if was still a healthy player, probably too. But there are some differences between both cases.

    5. The Prescient Cock Jowles

      Drumming up some unsubstantiated rumors. LeBron is not coming to NYC with Carmelo making that kind of money.

    6. MSA

      Just to be clear, that’s not an excuse for Amares horrible contract.

      His contract is even worse anything that we can offer Melo.

    7. Frank O.

      It is conceivable that Lebron and Melo could move to LA, with both taking significant pay cuts to play there. Not only would Melo not get a full five year max, but he would need to take a further hit for LA to fit him and Lebron under the cap.
      If LA were to pull that off, it would be remarkable, and the Staples center would simply become the mecca of basketball, with literally four of the best players in the league under its roof.

      The only scenario where you see Melo and Lebron playing in NY, I think, is if Lebron does a one year and then comes to NYC in 2015 when Amar’e, Bargs, Dalembert, Ellington, and Odom all sunset, as does MWP, who the Knicks bought out, removing at least about $63 million in salaries.

      Of course, most of those players (not MWP, obviously) become good trading pieces because of their value as expiring contracts, so it is conceivable the Knicks might try to make a trade involving some of those pieces to bring another near marquee player to NYC.
      Perhaps the Knicks could even pull off a sign and trade with Miami if the Heat realizes Lebron wants out and wants value for him in terms of cap space in 2015. But I kind of doubt Riley would hand the Knicks and Jackson the keys to the kingdom.

    8. The Prescient Cock Jowles

      If LA were to pull that off, it would be remarkable, and the Staples center would simply become the mecca of basketball, with literally four of the best players in the league under its roof.

      Who are the four?

    9. Zanzibar

      Melo’s recruiting begins:

      Melo: Hey Pau, Carmelo Anthony here. How you doin’?

      Pau: Oh hey Melo, Phil told me you’d probably be calling, what’s up?

      Melo: Pau, I’m gonna be a Knickerbocker for life and I’d like us to be teammates this season.

      Pau: Sounds good Melo – you, Phil and Fish would make a perfect triangle.

      Melo: I know 3.2m isn’t much Pau but I think we could do something really special here.

      Pau: Agreed. My youngest bro isn’t much of a baller but he’s real brainy and told me if you take 19m this season that a S&T would be possible and I could make 8-10m. I know Jeanie would make that happen. What do you think?

      Pau (after long pause):….Melo….hello Melo……are you still there Melo?

      Pau (hears Lala/Melo talking in background):…..Melo…hello.Melo..

      Pau (hears click…..dial tone)

      5 minutes later

      Melo: Hey Al (Harrington), Carmelo Anthony here. How you doin’?

    10. Zanzibar

      Everyone stoked about our 2015-16 starting lineup? Melo/Jefferson/Calderon/JR/Shump. And that’s if we’re lucky enough to get Al. OK maybe Hibbert instead of Jefferson. Dragic at max? Melo/Dragic/JR/Shump/Koufos. Woo-hoo. Doesn’t appear Pau and his bro playing together is that high a priority or he would have taken Memphis mle. Marc likely wants to retire a Grizz having played in Memphis since high school. But Melo and Bron? Melo/Bron/Calderon/JR/Koufos. LBJ ain’t dumb.

      What was the alternative?
      – Mirotic on 4 year mle – possibility becomes a 10m+ player.
      – Butler as RFA where we could go above cap to sign him. Teams would know that and wouldn’t place a bid so we’d likely have him on good contract.
      – Tank one year for high 2015 lottery pick.
      – Offer Shump 3 year extension at 4m/year (what Thabo got).
      – Trade Chandler for Wright/Ellington
      – Cole on 2m bae
      – Hope one of Hardaway/Snell/Tyler takes next step.

      Which would you rather have? (1) Mirotic at 5m/year, Butler on good contract, 2015 high lottery pick, Kings 2015 pick OR (2) Melo at near max. I much prefer the former. Better to build value contracts which could be traded when some unhappy star wants to change teams (e.g., Love). Flexibility is the key here. We’d be more likely to land Bron and KD in 2016.

    11. richmond

      Amare could have opted out too this year – not a lot in the press covered that. He could have restructured his contract to stay, maybe $7M for 3 years (lol) instead of $23M this year. Bargnani could have opted out too, and restructured his contract to stay, maybe $4M over 3 years (lmao) instead of $12M this year.

      Lebron opted out as he is tired of saving the owners money, and carrying Bosh. Melo will get his good coin, otherwise he will just go to Lakers or Chicago and maybe contend for a ring. That is one expensive bet on his part. He asked to be traded to Knicks and people agreed, no one should blame him.

      Iverson (broke) Ewing, Karl Malone, and other great players who got to Finals but no ring. It’s not a sure thing, at least the fortune is there written on paper.

    12. The Prescient Cock Jowles

      I pity the guy who thinks that it’s important to cut his salary by 66% to please a bunch of sportswriters and fairweather fans. I actually like Amar’e more for making the Knicks honor their shitty and debilitating commitment to him.

    13. thenoblefacehumper

      Off-topic: Do Calderon’s on/off numbers make anyone else a little nervous? I know there are plenty of factors, but it is a little weird that the Mavs were worse (1.6 points per 100 possessions) on offense with him on the floor. It’s not like they had some great back-up points guard in Devin Harris. I guess the drastic defensive difference (6.9 points per 100 possessions worse) is to be expected, but even that number is so high it has to be cause for some concern.

    14. Frank

      Another off-topic:

      Bosh to Houston should scare the league a lot more than Bosh resigning with Miami or Melo going to Houston. Bosh is perfect for Houston — would give them 3 elite defenders in their starting lineup between Beverley, Bosh, and DH12, and would be a good offensive fit with them also with his shooting ability. If I’m Morey I’d much rather throw $ at Bosh.

    15. ephus

      I do not think the Knicks wanted Bargnani or STAT to restructure. If they did, they would be talking about using the waive and stretch on one of them. That would entail using 2015-16 and 2016-17 cap space.

    16. Aten

      @13

      Why in the world would anyone be nervous about Calderon? He’s going to be 33 in September, his WP48 dropped .087 last season from the year before, and he’s on the books for the next three seasons at seven per. Oh yeah. This can’t miss.

    17. Kahnzy

      Why in the world would anyone be nervous about Calderon? He’s going to be 33 in September, his WP48 dropped .087 last season from the year before, and he’s on the books for the next three seasons at seven per. Oh yeah. This can’t miss.

      All valid points and I agree.

      Yet, that’s still better than having Felton.

    18. The Prescient Cock Jowles

      Yeah, but now Calderon is playing next to Carmelo. His WP48 is bound to skyrocket.

    19. DRed

      Why would Phil Jackson trade for Calderon if he wasn’t good? Do you know more about basketball than Phil Jackson?

      In reality, given the deals guards are getting this season, we can probably move Calderon if he’s not working out. But yeah, he’s clearly on the decline.

    20. ephus

      Calderon is a huge improvement over Felton. He is a great shooter and has great shot selection. He is a great fit for the Triangle. If he gets JR to emulate his shot selection, JR is one of the fifty best players in the NBA.

      Calderon has not been a good defender. I trust Phil & Fish to construct a defensive scheme that hides Calderon’s defensive flaws.

    21. ephus

      Calderon has the size to defend SG. When Shumpert is on the floor with Calderon, there might be a lot of cross-matching.

      It seems there is actual doubt regarding Miami’s ability to bring back both Bosh and Lebron. This could go nuts.

    22. max fisher-cohen

      Z wrote:

      So, there have certainly been more than two star players change teams via free agency during that time: Amar’e, Bosh, Boozer, Nash…

      ALL players who received salaries commensurate with their value at the time. Nash turned out to be a great deal, and kudos to Phoenix for having the foresight to see the direction in which the NBA was evolving.

      The challenge of building a contender is getting ~$100m of talent for $60m-$80m. Paying a player $25m for $25m worth of production is a spectacular idea for a team that already has $75m worth of talent, but let’s look at a best case for the Knicks with Anthony in summer 2015 in terms of the value of their roster:

      Melo: $25m
      Calderon: $9m
      Smith: $9m
      Larkin: $6m
      Hardaway: $5m
      First round pick: $5m
      Early: $4m
      Prigioni: $3m

      That leaves a $33m talent deficit in terms of being a contender and only ~$20m of cap space. You can’t make that up in free agency because the only value you’ll find in free agency is either lucking into a Nash situation or convincing a true elite player like Howard or Lebron to come over as a free agent. With $20m of cap space, you prolly avg $15m of value.

      and @iserp, the reason a team like Dallas was able to win a title was first because if Melo is a $25m player, then Dirk was a ~$33m player back then, whereas his salary was $22m in today’s $s. Further, those Mavs were ~$30m over the cap. It will take NYK ~3 years to get their salaries that far over the cap, at which point Melo will be 34 and will surely be a net loss at his max salary.

      As far as the title vs. decent team question, as a fan, I want to be able to hope for a title. A ~50 win team in this east with old players and and no cap space might make the conference finals but will be wildly outclassed there, and again were they to make the finals. Not the case for a Western Conference team, so were NYK in the west, I’d be thrilled with conference finals, but hell no in the East.

    23. Jack Bauer

      I don’t know about his on/off #’s, Win Shares, WP48, or his WTF, but I’ve watched enough basketball to know that Calderon will likely be a big improvement over Felton. Say what you want, he can shoot, which Felton cannot do (among other things). Agree with the comment above, if P Jackson took him, there must be a reason, he knows a lot more about basketball than any of us.

    24. The Prescient Cock Jowles

      I don’t know about his on/off #’s, Win Shares, WP48, or his WTF

      Welcome to Knickerblogger, Average ESPN.com Commenter!

    25. hoolahoop

      My hunch is that the big three in Miami have decided they had a great run, four Finals in four years, two championships, brothers forever – but let’s try something different.

      Phil Jackson was great at coaching. More specifically, getting super elite players with gigantanormous egos to play together, and create a winning culture. He’s not god. As far as trades go, just because he’s PJ, doesn’t mean it’s a good deal.

    26. JK47

      Well, if you go by WP48, Calderon was 13th in the league among point guards, while Ray Felton was 10,000,000th, and Calderon was worth 7.5 wins to Felton’s 3.0.

      Maybe you like WS instead– Calderon was a 6.3 win player to Felton’s anemic 2.2 So Calderon is worth somewhere between 4.0 and 4.5 wins more than Felton. That’s a pretty big marginal upgrade.

      Having something other than a complete black hole sucking up 2,000 minutes is going to help quite a bit.

    27. JK47

      I would imagine if Bosh leaves that’s probably the end of the LeBron era in Miami. Seems like Riley played this kind of badly. He might have been able to convince LeBron to come back if he had correctly read the tea leaves that Bosh wasn’t going to take a massive pay cut, he could have made a play for some sort of Lowry/Gortat combo, but he dicked around too long hoping for a miracle.

    28. BigBlueAL

      Calderon is a career 41% 3pt shooter. The last 2 seasons he has shot 46 and 44% while attempting 4.5 per game. Thats a pretty big reason to love Calderon regardless of his other limitations.

    29. Aten

      @28

      I agree re: the difference between Calderon and Felton 1) in the immediate term and 2) in a vacuum. But in the bigger picture, where are those extra wins getting us this year? Next year?

    30. JK47

      But in the bigger picture, where are those extra wins getting us this year? Next year?

      The Knicks are obviously not planning on tanking the 2014-2015 season. The merits of that plan are debatable, but that is the plan. There is not going to be a complete tear down and rebuild. If the Knicks are seen as a team that is slowly but steadily improving under Phil Jackson’s watch, that is only going to help going forward. If they win 45 games next year– something that is far from an impossibility– you can make a pretty good case to free agents the following year that the franchise is headed in the right direction.

    31. Frank

      They’ll always be a place in the league for a guy who can handle the ball, run an offense, and shoot 50/40/90. I think it’s quite likely that Calderon plays up to his contract number. And even if he doesn’t, it’s not a huge dollar amount and can probably be traded as an expiring when we might be gunning for Durant after the 2015-16 season. And like others have said, sure, he’s a turnstile on D but that’s what we have Shump for.

    32. Zanzibar

      Random Musings:

      – Miami’s options are melting away faster than an ice cream cone in the Florida summer sun. The way this is going, Bron and Riley may have to blow in Lance’s ear to convince him to join the Heat.

      – The most bizarre occurrence over the last few days has been Bron’s agent refusal to grant the Rockets a meeting while the Suns, Mavs, and Cavs all got face-to-face meetings. If Bron’s serious about leaving, wouldn’t Rockets be far and away his best choice?

      – In terms of +/-, Calderon was still a huge minus despite having Ellis and Dirk to set him up for open 3s which he shot at a close to career high of 45%. So Phil and Fish are gonna be able to solve the problem which stumped Carlisle? There’s a reason Mavs wanted to get rid of him.

      – It’s remarkable the superhuman attributes fans are willing to attribute to Phil. Every development is spun to indicate Jax’s genius. And Jax will convince Pau to play for 3.2m. I guess it’s all relative after Woodson and Dolan-meddling FO but expectations are way too high which, in a way, is unfair to him. Jax is no Superman in his new role and Melo might be his kryptonite. From what I’ve witnessed so far, Jax might turn out to be the Magic Johnson of coaching.

    33. lavor postell

      Calderon is so much better than Felton it’s not even funny. Even if he is a turnstile on D that’s essentially replacing Felton’s contributions on that end, while being infinitely better on offense.

    34. Frank

      - In terms of +/-, Calderon was still a huge minus despite having Ellis and Dirk to set him up for open 3s which he shot at a close to career high of 45%. So Phil and Fish are gonna be able to solve the problem which stumped Carlisle? There’s a reason Mavs wanted to get rid of him.

      If you look at NBAwowy, Calderon played more than 90% of his minutes with Monta Ellis. Their two-man on-court +/- was -1 per 100poss (109/110 basically).

      But if you look at the ~200 minutes Calderon played without Ellis, the Mavs were a +6 per 100 poss (120/114). (small sample size for sure)

      If you look at the 800 minutes Ellis played without Calderon, the Mavs were a +2 per 100 poss (111/109).

      If you ask me, the reason the Mavs got rid of Calderon is a) they wanted Tyson and we wanted a PG that can run an offense, attract Gasols, and shoot 50/40/90; and b) they probably know better than we do that Calderon and Ellis are not a good fit together.

    35. nicos

      Just for fun I thought I’d look at the offensive +/- of the low usage/high TS% bigs that WoW loves using espn’s real +/-. I used bigs with a TS of 60+ and usage less than 16 and using King Cole’s 330 minutes as the cutoff.
      Here’s their offensive +/- highest to lowest.
      DeAndre Jordan +.20
      Chris Anderson +.046
      Tyson Chandler -.07
      Anthony Tolliver -.12
      Robin Lopez -.33
      Jeff Ayres -1.05
      Cole Aldrich – -2.05
      Andrew Bogut -3.12
      Sam Dalembert -3.48
      Ryan Hollins -3.63
      Bismack Biyombo -3.90
      Interestingly, The three guard/wings with 60+ TS% and a usage under 16 all are solidly in the positive: Korver at +2.54, Prigs at +1.73, and Mike Miller at +1.58. What does this mean? My guess is that it means going small usually helps your offense even if it means swapping out a high TS% big for a lower TS% small. Of course the trade off is it kills your defense as of the top 40 guys in defensive +/-, 36 are either centers or power forwards. So if you can get a really good defensive big (like Chandler) who isn’t killing your offense (like Dalembert) it’s a huge plus. But I think it does suggest that having a guy who just dunks might not help your offense at all no matter what his TS%- the best of these guys was barely over the break even point. Or it might just be noise- it’s just one season’s numbers after all- it’ll be much more interesting to look at a few years down the line.

    36. lavor postell

      It’s remarkable the superhuman attributes fans are willing to attribute to Phil. Every development is spun to indicate Jax’s genius. And Jax will convince Pau to play for 3.2m. I guess it’s all relative after Woodson and Dolan-meddling FO but expectations are way too high which, in a way, is unfair to him. Jax is no Superman in his new role and Melo might be his kryptonite. From what I’ve witnessed so far, Jax might turn out to be the Magic Johnson of coaching.

      What have you witnessed so far from Phil Jackson to make you think he’s going to be an absolute failure in the front office? The Knicks fleeced Dallas by ending up with multiple tradeable contracts, 2 second round picks and $3.7m trade exception. Basically you have a report that says Phil Jackson offered him the max, but what matters is what Melo ultimately signs for. If he signs for anything like 5 years, $100-115m I’ll be satisfied and if he can somehow convince Pau to come here on a 2-year mini MLE that would be a coup.

    37. Frank

      What have you witnessed so far from Phil Jackson to make you think he’s going to be an absolute failure in the front office? The Knicks fleeced Dallas by ending up with multiple tradeable contracts, 2 second round picks and $3.7m trade exception.

      seriously Zanzibar – Phil was able to trade fat Ray Felton, his 500 hours of community service, and his penguin arms in a deal that we won. He also traded a very good but declining/always injured/sick player in Tyson who we were almost certainly going to lose for nothing next offseason, and who IMHO was a total disappointment in the “leadership” category during a really terrible year for the team.

      Phil has also (clearly intentionally if you ask me) created a narrative in the media that is basically herding Melo to come back for less than the max, which he seems likely to do. What else do you want? I think he’s done an amazing job so far.

    38. ess-dog

      I like Calderon with Melo. I even think Shump will help to cover Calderon’s defensive flaws, and perhaps Shump will even learn something about offense from Fisher/Jax.
      But the front court is dreadful. Maybe we can package Larkin with JR for a decent big while saving a little $? Cole minutes would be fine. I think Tyler has banger potential. Amare could log some semi decent minutes. Bargs really should be bought out, unless we can package him and some youth for a guy like Bogut. Something like Calderon/Shump/Melo/Amare+Tyler/Bogut is about the best we can do for 2014-15. That’s maybe a 2nd round exit?

    39. Frank

      @41 – I have the irrational (but not ridiculous) belief that somehow we will either land Pau Gasol for the mini-MLE or Lamar Odom will be worth something in 2014-15. If either or both of those things happen, we will be fine.

    40. Brian Cronin

      It has to be a knock on Jackson that he missed out on his top choice for coach. He even did a recruitment dinner with Melo where he expressly told him that Kerr would be the coach next season when he had not yet actually had Kerr tell him he was going to be the coach next season. That was how sure he was he was getting Kerr and then he didn’t get him. That has to be a knock on Jackson.

      That said…

      Phil has also (clearly intentionally if you ask me) created a narrative in the media that is basically herding Melo to come back for less than the max, which he seems likely to do. What else do you want? I think he’s done an amazing job so far.

      I absolutely agree that if Jackson gets Melo to agree to take a substantial discount (of at least $13 million) then sure, he will have done an excellent job this offseason. Big if there, though. I’m certainly pulling for it to happen! I want Jackson to be awesome at this job.

    41. DRed

      There are only 2 Cs in the league who improve their teams offense by even a point per 100 possessions according to real +/-. So I don’t know how much more valuable a guy with a diverse, non-just dunks offense is.

    42. Zanzibar

      What have you witnessed so far from Phil Jackson to make you think he’s going to be an absolute failure in the front office?

      Offering Melo the max is a really bad sign whether he takes it or not.

      The Knicks fleeced Dallas by ending up with multiple tradeable contracts, 2 second round picks and $3.7m trade exception.

      Exactly what I mean by putting the best spin on anything Jax does. What I know is we’ve got a really bad contract for the next 3 years which probably won’t be as easy to move as people think. Mavs didn’t really want Tyson (they had Wright/Dalembert on favorable contracts); they wanted to get rid of Calderon and 1 year of Tyson was a nice option to do that. Now maybe Phil will be able to parlay picks/trade exception into something but that is an unknown at this time. And somehow I’m not supposed to worry about the defense of Calderon/THJ/Melo or Calderon/JR/Melo lineups because Phil’s a wizard so he’ll make it all work?

    43. Frank

      And somehow I’m not supposed to worry about the defense of Calderon/THJ/Melo or Calderon/JR/Melo lineups because Phil’s a wizard so he’ll make it all work?

      All teams have occasional bad lineups from one side of the ball or another. I would guess that most of the time Shump will be alongside Calderon, but we’ll see. And yes – Phil and Fisher are not Mike Woodson so I would expect the defensive strategy to be better next year.

      Mavs didn’t really want Tyson (they had Wright/Dalembert on favorable contracts); they wanted to get rid of Calderon and 1 year of Tyson was a nice option to do that.

      This statement is total conjecture and goes against every single report about the Mavs going back months. They’ve been talking about getting Tyson back since the All-star break.

      Time will tell re: Calderon, but please don’t tell me you think he’s an awful player just because of some +/- numbers and some made-up rationalization about what the Mavs are thinking.

      And re: the assets that are Early, Thanasis, and the TPE – collecting assets is a good thing in and of itself. Of course they all won’t definitely work out – but they’re still assets that can either develop on their own or can be traded. You may not be familiar with them because we haven’t had any in so long.

    44. BigBlueAL

      So now the Mavs didnt want Tyson they just wanted to move Calderon’s contract?? They were so desperate to move Calderon that they were willing to include their 1st rd pick from last season, their starting C (who is entering the final year of his contract), another player entering the final year of his contract and a couple of 2nd rd picks PLUS they were willing to take back Felton??

    45. Zanzibar

      This statement is total conjecture and goes against every single report about the Mavs going back months. They’ve been talking about getting Tyson back since the All-star break.

      Frank, you just wrote this: “He also traded a very good but declining/always injured/sick player” in Tyson. And again, Dalembert and Wright are arguably both better than TC at this time. Of course, the Mavs are not gonna go public and say: we’re willing to take a declining/always injured/sick center for a year to get rid of an average declining 33 yo on a 7m/year/3 year deal.

      Time will tell re: Calderon, but please don’t tell me you think he’s an awful player just because of some +/- numbers

      I don’t believe I ever said he was an awful player – awful defender, absolutely. I said he’s got a really bad contract. It’s hard in the playoffs to hide players who are among the worst in the league at defense (e.g., Novak, Harden). And +/- numbers are maybe the best way to understand the impact of lousy defense since metrics like WP and WS are very limited in that regard. According to WP48, he’s 13th in the league at his position and that’s not really taking into account his lousy defense.

    46. maxwell_3g

      I am not a psychoanalyst, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night. is it possible that Phil and Melo are on the same page? Phil offers the max so that Melo feels that he is respected and a max player. Melo leaves money on the table to show the world what a team player he is. Everyone is happy (except me who wants to blow it all to hell anyway)

    47. nicos

      There are only 2 Cs in the league who improve their teams offense by even a point per 100 possessions according to real +/-. So I don’t know how much more valuable a guy with a diverse, non-just dunks offense is.

      True- I’d say the bigs who do well in +/- seem to be really active/mobile- whether they can hit a 15 footer or not probably doesn’t matter as much as their activity level. I’d actually love to see Chandler’s numbers from the previous 2 seasons where his TS% was significantly higher and he seemed more active (by the eye test anyway) defensively. He was 33rd in total +/- this year so you’d have to think he’d have been significantly better the previous two seasons- I doubt he would have cracked the top ten but he’d have been close. Part of the reason I was interested was that I do think Chandler was much better than a lot of people on the board were giving him credit for being- his scoring numbers looked almost identical to Dalembert’s this year but his mobility/activity as a screener are in another league. Of course, I also think WoW rewards big immobile guys who just hang around the paint on offense more than it ought to.

    48. The Prescient Cock Jowles

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNNVY3T80Y0

      I want you to find me a section of this highlight reel in which:

      1) a teammate’s missed shot is not turned from 0 points to 2 points via offensive rebound and dunk/layup

      2) Chris Andersen does not put himself in position for various teammates to help him put the ball through the hoop

      Find me a section where he does not “create” the points that WP/PoP credits him with.

      Why is it so unreasonable that a guy who can (1) get to the rim (2) get above the rim and (3) finish at the rim might be a highly, highly productive player?

    49. JK47

      So according to Bill Simmons, the Lakers are apparently one of the serious Melo contenders– it’s between the Knicks, Bulls and Lakers.

      So the Lakers would have Melo and Kobe on max contracts, Steve Nash at $9M, Julius Randle and… nothing else. I guess Robert Sacre is under contract too. They’d have pretty much zero cap space left after signing Melo, and giant gaping holes at several positions. Their starting lineup would be 40-year old Nash, 36-year old Kobe, Melo, Julius Randle and Robert Sacre, plus whatever scraps they find for the veterans minimum. Nash played 15 games last year, Kobe played 6 games and Julius Randle has a foot made of porcelain.

      I almost hope that happens, because I live in LA and it would be fun to laugh at that trainwreck on a daily basis.

    50. JK47

      How they gonna fit Kobe, Melo and LeBron under their cap? Kobe makes $23.5M this year and LeBron says he’s only gonna take the max. What are they gonna do, trade Kobe somewhere? They already used their amnesty on MWP so they can’t do that. LeBron gets the max and Melo signs for the MLE?

      They have two more years of riding out Kobe’s shit show of a contract before they can do anything.

    51. BigBlueAL

      Thats why I dont think either Melo or LeBron or going there. Just Simmons talking crap.

    52. BigBlueAL

      If Melo does leave Ive always said I dont care as long as he doesnt go to Chicago or Miami. Just go back out west and dont improve an East team is all I would care about lol.

    53. nicos

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNNVY3T80Y0

      I want you to find me a section of this highlight reel in which:

      1) a teammate’s missed shot is not turned from 0 points to 2 points via offensive rebound and dunk/layup

      2) Chris Andersen does not put himself in position for various teammates to help him put the ball through the hoop

      Find me a section where he does not “create” the points that WP/PoP credits him with.

      Why is it so unreasonable that a guy who can (1) get to the rim (2) get above the rim and (3) finish at the rim might be a highly, highly productive player?

      Why is it so difficult to believe that in today’s spread offenses, guys who don’t spread the floor gum up the works. Of course the flip side, according to +/- is that having a big who can defend the rim is huge benefit so while Anderson may not make the offense much better, the fact that he’s not killing the offense (like a lot of bigs seem to do) while providing rim protection makes him really valuable (23rd in the league by real +/-). Chandler and Anderson are both top 40 players by real +/-, that’s really productive in my book. The question is why do they rate so much higher offensively than say Dalembert when their offensive numbers are so similar- well Chandler (and Anderson and Jordan too if you factor in fast breaks) is a heck of a lot more mobile (maybe you could argue that effective movement spreads the floor as much or more than a decent 15 footer might for a big).

    54. The Prescient Cock Jowles

      I would advise you to reconsider the idea that players like Tyson Chandler and Chris Andersen gum up the paint rather than move toward the rim after the ball is shot.

      The idea that there’s not enough room for two players in the paint in today’s “spread offense” is fucking absurd.

    55. The Prescient Cock Jowles

      They already used their amnesty on MWP so they can’t do that.

      Only contracts signed before the current CBA could be amnestied. Kobe’s was an ineffable, rebuild-sinking contract from Day 1, and there’s nothing the Lakers have that will ever make that contract worth even half of what they’re paying him.

      He’s going to need to do some serious hGH and blood doping to earn that kind of cash.

    56. BigBlueAL

      Now Woj is piggybacking what Simmons tweeted saying the Lakers are in strong consideration now. Kobe’s persuasive powers at work!! lol

    57. nicos

      I do think it’s weird to dismiss real +/- as nothing but noise when there’s so much duplication with WoW at the top of the lists. Here’s your top 15 roster according to Real +/-
      PG Chris Paul, Curry, Westbrook
      SG Manu, Vince Carter, Danny Green
      SF LeBron, Durant, Iggy
      PF Dirk, Collison, Duncan
      C Noah, Howard, Gortat

      And here’s WoW:
      PG Paul, Curry, Dragic
      SG Harden, Stephenson, Korver
      SF James, Durant, Leonard
      PF Love, Jeff Adrien, Anthony Davis
      C Drummond, Jordan, COLE!! (or if you prefer someone who played more minutes Bogut).

      Do you think one lineup would have been significantly better than the other last year? As I said in my original post, given there’s just one year of Real +/- numbers, there may be a big grain of salt attached but I do think it could wind up being really useful at turning up guys who do a lot of things (like setting good screens or moving the ball quickly, or you know actually playing good defense) that don’t show up in the box score but that make for winning basketball.

    58. Jack Bauer

      I don’t know about his on/off #’s, Win Shares, WP48, or his WTF

      “Welcome to Knickerblogger, Average ESPN.com Commenter!”

      I’ve heard a diss before, and that sounds a lot like I’ve been dissed. All good, I can take it :) . Unfortunately I have a job and not enough free time to analyze all of the metrics you experts refer to here on Knickerblogger. Fortunately for me, I don’t have to because you all do it for me! As I said, Calderon can shoot, is a huge improvement over Felton, and should do well in the triangle. That is my basketball opinion in spite of what the advanced stats may say.

    59. nicos

      I would advise you to reconsider the idea that players like Tyson Chandler and Chris Andersen gum up the paint rather than move toward the rim after the ball is shot.

      The idea that there’s not enough room for two players in the paint in today’s “spread offense” is fucking absurd.

      Did you bother to read my post??? I specifically said that Anderson and Chandler DON’T gum up the paint despite not being to hit jumpers because they’re so mobile. I’ve said multiple times on this board that you can’t cheat too far off of Chandler because he’s so quick to the rim and adept at catching lobs (and grabbing offensive boards). But there are a lot of high TS/low usage guys who are nowhere near as quick to the rim (Dalembert) nor nearly so adept at catching lobs (Biyombo, Cole) that IN MY OPINION they just don’t have the same value on offense even if their numbers may be similar because they DO gum up the paint. I always liked Chandler and I’d love to have Anderson as well but I wouldn’t want Biyombo as anything other than a 10-12th guy no matter how highly WoW rates him.

    60. nicos

      Well maybe I suggested it rather than said so specifically so sorry about that- I wasn’t criticizing Anderson who I think is really good. But there are a lot of guys WoW really likes like Dalembert (or Cole, or a host of other bigs) who I think are very average at best. And before you kill me, I do think Cole could be a decent starter- I’d start him over Dalembert- and a bargain at the 2-3 million which they could probably sign him for but he’s not anywhere near as good as WoW would like me to believe.

    61. The Prescient Cock Jowles

      That is my basketball opinion in spite of what the advanced stats may say.

      The advanced stats say that Calderon is an excellent PG (or was, recently) and Felton is historically bad-to-awful. Not Bargnani-bad, but bad.

    62. Robtachi

      Welcome to Knickerblogger, Average ESPN.com Commenter!

      Y’know, nobody is required to know every player’s advanced stat profile offhand to appreciate that player’s value. It helps, but it’s not necessary. I know LeBron James and Kevin Durant are the two best players on the planet and I don’t need to know the specifics of their advanced stats to make that determination. I do, but it doesn’t alter my opinion I had in the first place. The stats are simply there to re-affirm and reinforce what we all thought anyway using other methods of evaluation (eye-test, dumb stats, SportsVu, whatever you like).

      Nobody needs Jose Calderon’s entire repertoire of WS, WP48, etc. to deduce that he’s a massive improvement over Ray “Burger King Dumpster Fire” Felton, who was terrible at basically everything in basketball. Or that Calderon at $7 MM/year, whatever his deficiencies, is still a much better value than Felton at $4 MM/year. The advanced stats will simply reinforce what we already know, because that’s what they’re there for, in addition to occasionally indicating some value in a player that might previously have gone overlooked.

    63. The Prescient Cock Jowles

      The stats are simply there to re-affirm and reinforce what we all thought anyway using other methods of evaluation (eye-test, dumb stats, SportsVu, whatever you like).

      what

    64. Alecto

      That’s preposterous on its face–advanced stats often fly in the face of conventional basketball opinion (WP48 on Carmelo, Bismack Biyombo, and Jeff Adrien show this). It’s a case-by-case thing, really; advanced stats will sometimes reinforce our eye-test/dumb stats observations (hey Lebron is really really good) but they don’t do that consistent enough to be justified in saying that they do it most of the time– approximately equally often they will undermine our eye-test/untrained opinion.

    65. The Prescient Cock Jowles

      Let me say again that the difference between an elite player and a player who is not elite is, all else equal, one shot out of every ten.

      Over the course of scores of games and thousands of minutes, you cannot tell the difference between a player who makes six out of ten shots and a player who makes five out of ten shots.

      Sometimes it’s even harder than that! I assure you that you are more prone to the availability heuristic than you believe you are. That is, when Kevin Durant makes a great shot, you say, “He’s great!” and when Kwame Brown fiddles the ball away at the rim, you say, “He’s terrible!” even though, again, Kwame Brown’s extreme suckitude is the result of only a handful of “negative” plays over the course of an entire game compared to Kevin Durant.

      Who do you think converts more shot attempts over the course of their career? Kwame or Durant?

      Think about it for second. Got an answer? Good! Durant, obviously. That’s my thought, at least. Durant is awesome at shooting.

      On average, Kevin Durant makes 48 out of every 100 shots. Kwame Brown made 49 out of every 100 shots. Now that doesn’t mean that Brown was more valuable than Durant (at all, not even close), but it does mean that you have about the same likelihood to see Kwame Brown make a shot as you do Kevin Durant. Basketball is a confusing game and your brain is probably not smart enough to process all of the information at once, so your brain holds onto little bits of information like tough shots and extreme fuck-ups and all sorts of other things, like intense defense (Shumpert vs. Wade) and outliers (Carmelo scores 62) while rejecting the mundane (Fields cuts backdoor for an easy slam) and the consistent (Chandler tips in a missed jump-shot on the rebound).

      It’s okay to look at Carmelo’s 62 and be like, “Wow, what a player!” so long as you are able to equally hold his all-time-worst game (possibly in the modern era of the NBA playoffs, for any player) against the Celtics in 2013 at the same time. Now try to figure out which one of those is the “real” Carmelo, or if a “real” Carmelo exists in the first place. If a player can single-handedly win the game or single-handedly lose the game, how valuable is he?

      My brain’s stupid too. It’s okay.

    66. nicos

      What the fuck is real +/-?

      On the off chance you’re not trolling: http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10740818/introducing-real-plus-minus

      So it’s an advanced stat (unlike regular +/-) but as I said it’s tough to draw firm conclusions from it until there’s a few years worth of numbers but for now it seems to get rid of a lot of the WoW guys who don’t pass my eye test so I love it!!! The fact that it generates a new bunch of other outliers (Nick Collison and Channing Frye are both in the top 10 on a per minute basis) doesn’t bother me as long as it bumps Cole and Brandan Wright out of the top ten. But as I said I do think it has real potential as at least it’s making an attempt to move beyond the box score.

    67. JK47

      Seriously, WTF was Melo supposed to be “impressed” about when it comes to LA’s pitch?

      “Well, we can offer you $30M less than the Knicks, and we’d be capped out for the next two seasons with no chance of bringing in an impact player until 2016-2017 and we were 27-55 last year and have no coach, but… RIIIIIIINNNNNNGGGGZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!”

    68. Robtachi

      That’s preposterous on its face–advanced stats often fly in the face of conventional basketball opinion (WP48 on Carmelo, Bismack Biyombo, and Jeff Adrien show this). It’s a case-by-case thing, really; advanced stats will sometimes reinforce our eye-test/dumb stats observations (hey Lebron is really really good) but they don’t do that consistent enough to be justified in saying that they do it most of the time– approximately equally often they will undermine our eye-test/untrained opinion.

      It’s not preposterous. If you believe you have a well-trained understanding of what makes a good basketball player, then more often than not, you’ll be able to make that determination without specifically knowing that player’s advanced stats profile. That’s inherent in understanding and applying advanced stats properly. In that case, the stats are merely there to confirm what you thought. Not always – as I said those stats do occasionally reveal some value (or deficiency) of a player you might be unaware of – but mostly, if you’re well-informed, the advanced stats back that up.

      My point was that, if Jack Bauer is a capable evaluator of basketball ability, it doesn’t necessitate he spout off Calderon’s entire advanced stat profile to prove that he was right about him being a bajillion times better than Felton. Cock Jowles simply jumped to an unnecessary assumption and generalization that the guy has no understanding of advanced stats’ role in evaluation. Bauer was talking about one guy, for which it’s hardly necessary to delve into the deeper numbers to draw a conclusion compared to Felton.

    69. Kahnzy

      Felton was the worst starting PG in the league last year. We went from 30th to something better than 30th. I’m just glad I won’t have to watch the incessant whining and complaining he did anymore. Good God, what a cry baby he is. Good riddance.

    70. Robtachi

      Felton was the worst starting PG in the league last year. We went from 30th to something better than 30th. I’m just glad I won’t have to watch the incessant whining and complaining he did anymore. Good God, what a cry baby he is. Good riddance.

      Case in point. Nobody needs the advanced stats to know that Felton sucked and Calderon will suck a lot less. They do show that, but they’re not needed. :)

    71. Alecto

      Anything to stop Zanzibar from going on and on about the havoc Calderon’s contract is going to wreak upon us because of his subpar defense

    72. max fisher-cohen

      @JK47 / re: Melo to LA

      If you look at it like Lala said “I’ll only be happy in LA and NY,” then it makes some sense. LA offers Kobe and Randle for the next two years and then no one on the books but Randle at like $3m in 2016, which is a great FA class.

      NY offers as its second best player… Calderon next year and then one max slot for… who? It could end up being someone like Roy Hibbert, so if you just look at the top two for the next two years:

      NY: Calderon, ( Smith // Hibbert)

      LA: Kobe, Randle

      And then the next year, LA can say, Durant is a possibility!

      All NY can say is… Calderon will be a year older! Oh yeah, and the MLE!

      Realistically, Calderon and JR could end up just as productive as Kobe and Randle, but I don’t think Melo is coldly analytical enough to dismiss Kobe.

    73. Jack Bauer

      Case in point. Nobody needs the advanced stats to know that Felton sucked and Calderon will suck a lot less. They do show that, but they’re not needed. :)

      +1

    74. Zanzibar

      Maybe Phil rushed to offer Melo the max because he “accidentally” found Jeanie’s to-do list: order that Buddha tie for Phil at zazzle.com, review Kobe medical retirement papers, courier paperwork to LBJ’s agent, establish Kobe statue project team. The most optimistic spin I’m able to put on the situation is as follows: Melo has decided he wants to go to Chicago via S&T but needs LA to be viewed as realistic option for Phil to negotiate reasonable S&T. The most likely reason though: CAA pissed at Phil for taking so long to offer Melo the max and now making Jax sweat a day or two.

    75. BigBlueAL

      Yeah, I think this whole Lakers thing is just the fact they are the 2nd likeliest team he would sign with instead of the Bulls. ESPN just put out an article saying Pau would re-sign immediately if Melo signed so I guess the allure is play with Kobe, Pau, Randle and crap for the next 2 seasons??

      Not surprised LA and NY would be his top 2 choices, its Im sure his wife’s top 2 choices and its the 2 teams that can offer him the most money.

    76. ephus

      Here is my jaundiced view of Melo’s people saying the Lakers are in the running:

      1. Chicago cannot offer Melo 4/96 without a S&T
      2. BCT (Big Chief Triangle) has decreed he will not S&T Melo.
      3. With Mirotic, Chicago can offer about 4/64.
      4. Lakers can offer 4/96.
      5. Melo wants the leverage to move the Knicks to his preferred contract, whatever that is.
      6. BCT has been trying to leverage/persuade Melo to take less than 4/96 for the first four years of the contract.

      My fear is that the compromise will be 4/96 with a fifth year player option at 24.5. It will look like a discount off of the full 5/129, but give no additional flexibility in 2015 or 2016.

    77. BigBlueAL

      Whatever happens I just hope the decision is made by tomorrow, already pretty tired of this “drama” lol. Then of course next week becomes all about the Heat and the Big 3’s decisions.

    78. DRed

      “One thing that still bothers Anthony is Jackson had wanted him to take less than a max contract, sources told Yahoo Sports.”

      I laughed audibly

    79. BigBlueAL

      Yet Berman in today’s Post said Melo will likely take less than the max. At this point Im going to ignore all rumors and just wait for the final verdict.

    80. hoolahoop

      So, Melo called the knicks’ bluff and PJ caved like a house of cards, offering the max.
      Melo-2, knicks-0.

      At this point, who are the knicks even negotiating against, LA? Chicago seems like they’re going in a different direction, and Houston and Dallas are not going to offer max money.
      LA is a mess. Is that really the solution for Melo?

      Sorry to say, PJ is screwing up, or this deal has Dolan’s hands all over it.

    81. ephus

      I don’t think BCT folded. I think he went Jedi. My guess (informed by the press accounts) is that he said something like: “you can have the full 5/129 if you want it, but I don’t think you should. If you take 5/115 (or 5/103), we will be able to lure a max free agent here next summer. We can win more this year than last year with our better system, but we can become true championship contenders if we have that extra 5 million in cap room next summer. You have the power, Carmelo. Do you want to use it to get the biggest paycheck, or do you want to use your power to contribute to gathering a great roster here?”

      I also suspect that BCT has been denigrating the Rockets and Bulls. The Rockets would have three players with wildly conflicting offensive preferences. Harden wants to slash to the rim and draw fouls. Howard wants the offense to run through him on the blocks. Melo wants the offense to run through him in the pinch post or from the perimeter.

      Chicago simply does not have the salary cap to make an economically competitive offer. They can only get there via S&T, which BCT has ruled out.

    82. Totes McGoats

      I was just sittin here thinkin..if Early becomes a Wilson Chandler type and Thanny an Ariza/Sefalosha type I would be very happy with the draft haul considering where Phil picked em.

    83. Robtachi

      In other FA news, Devin Harris’ deal is the exact same as the one the Spurs gave Patty Mills.

      One of these things is not like the other.

    84. hoolahoop

      PJ should have reasoned with Melo upfront about taking less money instead of giving it to him and asking him not to take it. Once it’s on the table, it’s gone.

      Regardless, why did the knicks have to offer max money? They didn’t. They just got scared and collapsed. No one was going to offer Melo the max, except maybe LA, and that’s a lot less than the knicks offer. Stuuuuuuupid.

    85. Brian Cronin

      Yeah, there are just waaaaaaaaaay too many conflicting reports out there, so it is too hard to tell what is the truth. I am still presuming that he’s coming back, but boy, I am a lot less sure that he’ll take a discount (not that I was ever all that sure that he would).

      How funny would it be, though, if Melo actually was offended by Jackson asking him to take a discount?

    86. JK47

      There’s one thing I hadn’t really considered: Melo may not really be in love with the idea of playing in the triangle and playing “system basketball” and all that. In LA he can just heroball it up to his heart’s content. Plus he’d still be signing a max contract, and even though it’d be less money than he could make with the Knicks, it’s still a Max Contract™ and he still gets the big ego stroke that comes with that.

      If he goes to LA, it’ll be because they really, really stroked his ego, like gave him the full reach-around happy ending, while Phil was appealing for Melo to play more of a team game and maybe even leave some money on the table for the better of the team. If that’s the kind of creep Melo is– and you really can’t rule that out, I guess– then good riddance.

    87. Brian Cronin

      I guess Kobe, Marshall, Gasol and Randle actually are a better core than what the Knicks currently have. It’s not nearly enough to be a contender next season, but, well…uhmmm…they can offer him max money? I dunno, I got nothing.

    88. Brian Cronin

      Plus he’d still be signing a max contract, and even though it’d be less money than he could make with the Knicks, it’s still a Max Contract™ and he still gets the big ego stroke that comes with that.

      And as we’ve seen, it is not like the Lakers are going to shy away from giving him another big contract when this one ends.

    89. BigBlueAL

      Apparently our boy Robert Randolph of Friday Night Knicks fame says his source has told him its a done deal and Melo has already agreed to re-sign with the Knicks. Well there you go lmao.

    90. Brian Cronin

      Ha! Thanks, Robert! I should do a post “Robert Randolph: Melo to re-sign with the Knicks.”

    91. JK47

      I guess Kobe, Marshall, Gasol and Randle actually are a better core than what the Knicks currently have.

      Except that they’re stuck in purgatory for two years instead of one.

      That proposed Laker team would be one of the worst defensive teams in the league, easily. Kobe doesn’t defend anymore, we all know Melo is mediocre at best and Randle is undersized for a power forward with little alligator arms. Kendall Marshall is also shitty on defense as well, as he is slow as molasses.

      If he does go to LA we’ll all have a lot of fun laughing at how bad that team is for a solid two seasons.

    92. Brian Cronin

      Oh yeah, don’t get me wrong, it really doesn’t make any sense from a competitive standpoint. They basically are only offering the same thing that the Knicks are offering – the hope of future free agents. So I find it very hard to believe. That said, I just thought of the other obvious reason why they’re at least a theoretical possibility – La La might really like the idea of being in Los Angeles. And their kids do live there during the summer, so from that perspective, it makes some sense.

      I still don’t believe they’re a real threat, though.

      Perhaps it is Melo’s counter to Jackson’s PR move to get him to take less? “I almost went to Los Angeles for the max but at the last moment I decided to help New York out and pick them over Los Angeles…for the max, of course, but still, I was really close to leaving so you all should be happy that I’m back, even at the max!” Or “Phil Jackson almost drove me to Los Angeles by telling me I shouldn’t take the max, while Los Angeles was telling me that I should take the max. In the end, despite Jackson, I couldn’t turn my back on New York.”

    93. Brian Cronin

      I love Jalen Rose calling out all the fake drama:

      Wake me if Bron or Melo change teams this summer.

    94. BigBlueAL

      Twitter is great. Melo is trending so I clicked on it to read the tweets and they are literally all Lakers fans excited as hell about Melo possibly joining the Lakers. I think its safe to say they would be pretty shocked to read the opinion most fans on this site have about Melo lol.

    95. rr

      BigAl,

      Lakers fan here; have lurked at this site before. High quality site–good articles and discussions. Came by to see what Knicks fans here were saying.

      About the “shocked” thing–assuming that you are even half-serious, you are dead wrong. If there is one thing that NBA fans in every market know about Carmelo Anthony, it is that he has a very mixed reputation, and the New York media and the Knicks fanbase are not seen as being laid-back and supportive, shall we say, any more than Lakers fans are seen as being objective about Kobe Bryant. Hard-core Knicks fans bagging on Carmelo Anthony is about as shocking as hard-core Knicks fans bagging on James Dolan is.

      As to the basketball issue, Lakers fans at the site that is most analogous to this one in terms of the kinds of commenters you get are very divided about bringing in Anthony. My personal opinion is that it is not a good idea for the Lakers, unless it is leading to Durant or James somehow, and I think it is fair to say that unless he lands in Chicago or Houston, the fanbase whose team gets Anthony will have some mixed feelings about it.

    96. JK47

      The more I think about the Melo situation, the more the Laker rumors make sense: Melo is floating the idea of joining the Lakers so he does not look like a heel when he takes every penny of the Mega Max contract from the Knicks. He’ll try to make it look like he’s doing the Knicks a favor by coming back without any sort of discount.

      Melo back to the Knicks, 5/129. That is what I forsee happening.

    97. Brian Cronin

      Yeah, like I said before, I think that that is at least a possibility. Hopefully the whole thing is just BS, though, driven by self-interested sources feeding info to reporters.

      The killer thing to me and the reason why I don’t like the idea of offering him the max and then asking him to take less is the fact that all Melo has to do is take the offer that you made and you’re fucked. You can’t very well back out of it. I totally understand the PR approach of “Making him take less or else look greedy and/or not interested in making a winning club,” but man, that depends on the guy caring more about looking greedy and/or not interested in making a winning club than he is in making millions of dollars more. That’s a lot to expect of anyone.

    98. massive

      The Knicks also talked to teams about dealing Iman Shumpert prior to the NBA draft and have talked to at least one team about trading Amar’e Stoudemire, according to a source. Stoudemire is entering the final year of his contract this season and is scheduled to make $23.4 million. The trade and discussions of moving Shumpert and Stoudemire suggest Jackson is taking an aggressive approach to overhauling the Knicks’ roster.

      http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/57785/source-knicks-feeling-positive-about-melo

      That would be interesting. With a possible 1 and 3 being filled by Calderon and Melo, I think you’ll need to keep Iman Shumpert. But if the guy can actually move Amar’e Stoudemire, that would be nothing short of impressive. Knowing who Jax spoke to about Stoudemire is honestly the most interesting part.

    99. BigBlueAL

      I was half-joking rr but you have to remember, sites like these and the fans who comment in them are a small minority of the actual fan base especially when you are talking about teams as popular as the Knicks and Lakers.

      The majority of fans have no clue what TS% or win shares are. They just see Melo scoring 62 pts in a game and lead the league in scoring last season and think for the most part he is amazing and of course Kobe at this point is in another planet status wise. Im pretty sure the majority of NBA fans in general still think Kobe in his prime was a much better player than Lebron. Hell alot of the mainstream media fall in this category too.

    100. JK47

      Who could possibly want Amar’e, and what possible asset(s) could the Knicks include to sweeten an Amar’e deal? I hope the plan isn’t to move Amar’e’s contract for other terrible but longer contracts.

      Giving the max to Melo and then flipping the Stat and Bargnani for even worse, longer contracts is EXACTLY the scenario we all dreaded. That’s some Isiah Thomas shit right there. The possibilities are painful to consider. Deron Williams, Eric Gordon, Josh Smith, Gerald Wallace, Joe Johnson, Javale McGee, Tyreke Evans…

    101. Brian Cronin

      Eric Gordon and Tyreke Evans for STAT is exactly the scenario I think a lot of us suggested as a typical Knicks move. I hope that it is somehow impossible to do, cap-wise (ESPN’s Trade machine is not working right now – it has no salaries listed so every deal is approved).

    102. Farfa

      Moreover, what good does Evans in the Triangle? Also, moving Stoudemire while not taking back worse contracts means nothing short of packaging him with a first rounder, which honestly I’d like to keep.

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