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Saturday, August 23, 2014

Knicks Morning News (2014.06.22)

  • [New York Post] Track record shows, Knicks would struggle if Melo goes (Sun, 22 Jun 2014 03:04:26 -0400)
    June 23 has loomed as D-Day — Decision Day — for Carmelo Anthony for some time. Monday is the deadline for the Knicks' All-Star to formally announce if he is…

  • [New York Post] Trainer uses brains, brawn to help groom Melo, Amar’e, J.R. (Sun, 22 Jun 2014 00:35:26 -0400)
    He played a role in J.R. Smith's emergence as 2013 Sixth Man of the Year. He influenced Carmelo Anthony's surge as rugged rebounder and scoring champion, and he contributed greatly…

  • [New York Daily News] Lupica: Summer of Melo! Opt-out season tips off, Knicks can only watch (Sun, 22 Jun 2014 03:02:07 GMT)
    On the first weekend of summer, this officially becomes the summer of Carmelo Anthony. He goes or stays. He stays on the stage and in the city he very badly wanted the last time it was his turn to make a move, and get paid. Or he leaves for Chicago or Houston or Miami or somewhere else.

  • 109 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2014.06.22)

    1. DRed

      According to league sources Melo has talked to a high profile person who lives in Chicago!!!!

    2. max fisher-cohen

      I think it’s always Love. He’s younger, better and cheaper. Easy.

      If you think it’s close though, and you’re looking at fit, then you have to ask whether you think Rose will come back strong. If he does, Love is the better fit for his comfort playing off the ball. If not, Melo’s stock jumps for his ability and eagerness to be the focal point of your offense.

    3. kronicfatigue

      I’d also factor in how taking Melo off the market affects the competition. If there’s a strong chance Melo would sign with Knicks for a discount, or go to Miami, then Bulls could have an interest in going with him over the “better fit” of Love.

      The East is weak, man.

    4. JK47

      Hey, Derrick Rose is playing 5-on-5, looking like his old self!

      Yeah, sure he is. This whole Melo-to-Chicago thing looks like a great idea on paper, but it goes tits up real fast if Rose doesn’t come back 100% from his injuries. They could be looking at $40M+ of salary cap money tied up in the hope and prayer that Derrick Rose stays healthy and Melo doesn’t decline too much in his 30′s. I personally think that even a healthy Rose is one of the most overrated players in the league. He is, like Melo, a high-volume/mediocre efficiency scorer, and he has played a grand total of 49 games in the last three seasons.

      You think Melo would learn his lesson about hitching his wagon to another max contract player who is an injury-hobbled volume scorer (coughAmar’ecough), but Melo gonna Melo I guess.

    5. Alecto

      Reports from ESPN indicate that Melo has opted out of his contract. No surprises there.

    6. yellowboy90

      Wow, Sad news about Isaiah Austin (pf/c Baylor). His basketball career j is over just days before the draft because he has been diagnose with Marfan syndrome. The kid had been previously playing despite being blind in one eye and know this.

      Wel, at least it was discovered now but prayers out to the kid.

    7. JK47

      Okay, so if the Knicks take Carlos Boozer back in a Melo sign-and-trade, they’re essentially handing Jerry Reinsdorf $16.8M, correct?

      I guess the question is– would Reinsdorf rather have the $16.8M, or would he rather have whatever assets he’d have to give up to facilitate a Boozer-for-Melo swap?

      I’m getting the sense that Melo to the Bulls is inevitable, and that the assets coming back are going to be pretty minimal, because the only leverage the Knicks have is that $16.8M contract they’d be eating.

    8. Brian Cronin

      There really is no better quote than “According to league sources, Anthony has talked to at least one high-profile person who lives in Chicago about what it’s like to be famous in the Windy City.”

      Oprah? Rahm Emanuel? Dennis Franz?

    9. GoNyGoNYGo

      So here is your current
      starting 5: Felton, JR, Bargnani, Stat & Chandler
      Bench: Prigioni, Shump, TJH, Jeremy Tyler
      Team Salary: 67,867,000 (hoopshype minus Melo)
      Excited?

    10. BigBlueAL

      Everyone here all excited about what the Knicks can get for Melo in a sign-and-trade, I think you guys are all dreaming. I have not read any article that mentions anything about the Bulls or Rockets trading with the Knicks for Melo. At best maybe they get a future pick which is what usually happens in sign-and-trades but thats it. The Knicks are going to basically lose Melo for nothing.

    11. Brian Cronin

      It depends on the leverage Melo gives the Knicks. If he says “I want $20 million, get it done,” then the Knicks will have leverage. But if he says “I’ll sign for $16-17 million,” then yes, the Knicks would have no leverage.

      And yes, it is ironic that the Knicks were fucked by Melo when they traded for him by him giving his current team all the leverage and now they might be fucked by Melo when they trade him by him taking all the leverage away from his current team.

    12. JK47

      The Knicks are going to basically lose Melo for nothing.

      Probably, but there is the issue of Boozer’s contract. The Knicks would be doing Chicago a pretty big favor by taking on that contract. Taking Boozer back in a trade would mean the Bulls would essentially be getting Melo’s services for like $4M or something the first year. So there is a bit of leverage there.

      And then there is the other issue: wouldn’t the Bulls need to clear the decks of salary/cap holds anyway? I’m not even gonna pretend to be a capologist, but I have seen several articles that suggest the Bulls would have to do a lot of maneuvering to just flat-out sign Melo to the max or near-max contract he will require, especially if they are also trying to bring in Afflalo. If you have to dump some pieces anyway– cap holds and such– why not just make everyone’s life easy and move those to the Knicks?

    13. Jack Bauer

      Someone please explain to me why New York would want to take back the corpse of Carlos Boozer in exchange for Melo? Has anyone watched him play the last couple of years?! Bleeecch. I don’t care what is WP48, Wins Share, or WTF come out to, he sucks and is massively overpaid. Cap relief does not sound that exciting as they’ll get that after next year anyway. Would rather have picks, Gibson, Butler, the Euro dude, or even Hinrich (at least he’s a PG).

    14. Brian Cronin

      The Knicks would have to take Boozer back in any deal. It is not about wanting Boozer. It is about him being a given for any trade (and, as JK47 notes, about telling the Bulls “Is it worth other assets to you to avoid amnestying Boozer?”).

    15. stratomatic

      I’m hopeful that Melo’s self centered nature (not to mention CAA’s influence) will cause him to put some pressure on the Bulls to put together a S&T that NY is WILLING to accept that also doesn’t gut the Bulls like his move to NY did. He had to have learned something from that experience, but he’s still Melo and has to want the extra year at big dollars.

      There’s no point in NY giving Melo all that extra money out of the goodness of their hearts by accepting Boozer and some other filler. If that’s what they offer, you simply tell Melo, CAA, and the Bulls to go “F” themselves and let them know we’ll see them in the playoffs in 2015/2016. Tell Melo no deal. He can’t have the extra year.

      Then maybe they come back with something interesting like Boozer, two 1st round picks (that they’ve been trying to move anyway), and a player like Mike Dunleavy or something like that. It’s hard to imagine they’d give up Butler, but what’s the interest in Afflalo if you expect to hold onto Butler. If we get Butler, we can celebrate. He’s EXCELLENT and we’d be in a position to make other moves (like with Shumpert). As long as we don’t damage the cap space for next year and/or get back something good that will move the rebuild forward I’ll be happy.

      All I know is that I WANT my Knicks soul to be exorcised of this demon.

      I hated the trade because I thought it was bad value, destroyed a team I was growing very fond of, and hate Melo’s game. Nothing in the interim changed my mind and I grew even less fond of Melo after the fiasco with D’Antoni and Jeremy Lin. He’s a self centered %&$#@ with an exaggerated view of himself and I’m not going to be able to fully root for this team until he’s gone. I’m a Knicks fan since the late 60s. Please Please Please let him be gone soon! My soul can’t take 5 more years of this demon possession.

    16. cgreene

      I have to say I think Melo turns into one of the most hated athletes in NY history w this move. I certainly feel that way. Phil is generally a pretty perceptive guy and I hope he gets w the press and expresses what everyone here has been saying essentially: “Melo forced the Knicks to give up far too many assets because his major concern was making maximum money over what was best for team that he was going to. Now Melo has fled the team that he fleeced to obtain him in a cowardly way in offering to take less money to do so. He did not have the guts to stick out the situation he created. That’s not a championship personality. Good riddance.”

    17. JK47

      Well, the draft is Thursday and the free agent period starts the following Tuesday, so I suppose getting one or both of the Bulls’ picks in this year’s draft is kind of a non-starter.

    18. BigBlueAL

      Howard Beck just tweeted about this since apparently alot of fans have been tweeting him about s&t scenarios and he basically said the same thing I said, its highly unlikely they can get anything of value for him so the most likely bet is he just leaves for nothing.

      As stratomatic said why bother helping another team sign Melo?? Unlike him though I actually want Melo to stay but fuck it if he wants to leave dont help him make it easier, screw that.

    19. Jack Bauer

      Sorry, I’d rather look into ” other assets ” than take Boozer. Cap relief most often turns into fools gold ( see the chase for Lebron, Mavericks, Dallas etc…..).

    20. BigBlueAL

      Yeah my point is the only thing the Knicks realistically can take back is Boozer so I say screw that. All this talk about 1st rd picks and Mirotic is a pipe dream. Taking Boozer back does nothing for the Knicks and only helps the Bulls and Melo. I cant see Boozer being packaged with some real good assets but if so then fine but if its just take back Boozer and a future 2nd rd pick or whatever then no thanks.

    21. JK47

      The Knicks will not take Boozer for basketball reasons; that is simply not going to happen. Boozer is an albatross; to get rid of a player like Boozer you have to include assets. They will let Melo walk for bupkis rather than adding insult to injury by paying Boozer’s $16.8M salary.

      The only real question here is this: how badly does Reinsdorf want to avoid paying the $16.8M to the amnestied Boozer? That is the only relevant question right now.

    22. Mars

      Hopeful thinking here but maybe melo opts out just to take less this year with the Knicks because he doesn’t want to wait a year to get assets. Hopefully this encourages amare to do the same. Remember the only thing we know from the meeting is that according to melo “it went great” also he does like the fisher hire.

    23. stratomatic

      Well, the draft is Thursday and the free agent period starts the following Tuesday, so I suppose getting one or both of the Bulls’ picks in this year’s draft is kind of a non-starter.

      The Bulls are trying to move those picks or at least move them into the future for cap reasons. What’s to stop NY and Chicago from quietly negotiating a deal where the Bulls select players the Knicks want with this year’s picks and putting them in the deal or trading the picks for future picks and giving them to the Knicks?

    24. JK47

      Hopeful thinking here but maybe melo opts out just to take less this year with the Knicks because he doesn’t want to wait a year to get assets. Hopefully this encourages amare to do the same.

      HAHAHAHAHAHA I JUST DIED LAUGHING. YEAH RIGHT AMAR’E IS GONNA OPT OUT. OH MAN, THAT’S A GOOD ONE.

    25. DRed

      We’ve only got 1.8 million to offer a team for a pick because we gave Toronto 1.4 million for motherfucking Bargnani. That trade somehow keeps getting worse.

    26. BigBlueAL

      Marc Stein has already reported that both Amare and Bargs have opted in even though their deadlines to do so are later in the week.

    27. JK47

      What’s to stop NY and Chicago from quietly negotiating a deal where the Bulls select players the Knicks want with this year’s picks and putting them in the deal or trading the picks for future picks and giving them to the Knicks?

      I think the latter scenario is more likely than the former. It seems to me like there are too many moving parts in this scenario for the Bulls to be drafting for the Knicks in those slots.

      Melo for Boozer plus the two picks this year makes an incredible amount of sense though, so maybe there’s a way.

    28. Brian Cronin

      If the offer is only Boozer, the Knicks will pass. However, if either A. The Bulls don’t want to amensty Boozer and have to deal the two picks anyways, then it makes sense to just deal them to the Knicks or B. Melo says he will take less, but not less than $20 million then the Bulls would have to do a sign and trade at which point they’d have to make the deal worth it to the Knicks.

      Plus, there is always the chance that Melo is bluffing and he will just re-sign here.

    29. Zanzibar

      But if he says “I’ll sign for $16-17 million,” then yes, the Knicks would have no leverage.

      True in the very strictest sense but Bulls and Melo would still have strong incentive to make a S&T. First, there is the matter of avoiding paying Boozer’s salary. Of course they might be able to do this if able to trade Boozer to another team. Second, they wouldn’t have to gut the team to sign Melo; the roster would have no depth at all. Melo/Noah/Rose/Butler/Gibson/2.7m room exception. That won’t win a chip and a sub-par Rose or injury to any of the starting 5 would be devastating. Heat and Spurs both had strong benches in their chip seasons.

      To amplify, if Melo arrives in a S&T they would have 5m mle and 2m bae versus 2.7 room exception. They also could trade for Afflalo or some other player. So: Melo/Noah/Rose/Butler/Gibson/Afflalo/5m mle/2m bae. That’s arguably the strongest 8-man rotation in the league. That’s why I think we have a shot at acquiring Mirotic. The Bulls will be in win-now mode the next 2 years. Mirotic likely would not join Bulls until next season because of buyout cost (plus 2.7m won’t do it). When he arrives, there’s always a chance he’d be a bust. Even if he shows promise, it may take him a year to become acclimated to NBA. If I’m Chicago, that seems to be a no-brainer to give up Mirotic in exchange for a really strong chip-ready squad for the next 2 seasons. If I’m Melo’s advisors, I absolutely advise him to force a S&T. Melo improves his chances of winning a chip, makes a bit more money, and avoids PR hit of NYK receiving no real value.

      Here are the simple trades (let’s call Snell a draft pick and Bulls have two 2014 picks and one 2015 pick available to trade):

      Afflalo for 2 picks/Dunleavy/non-guaranteed contracts
      Melo for Boozer/Mirotic/2 picks

      PR disaster if Phil walks away from mirotic deaI. I’d consider holding out for Mirotic and Butler (no draft picks) and offer to send Prigs and maybe even THJ in the exchange.

    30. BigBlueAL

      Gonna be very interesting to see if Dolan gets involved. From everything Ive read Melo wants to stay in NYC. I just cant imagine he would be willing to re-sign for the full max, how bad would that look for both the Knicks and Melo??

    31. Brian Cronin

      Sure, Zanzibar, a sign and trade would still make sense for the Bulls, but I don’t think they’d be to the point of throwing in big time assets, unless they really, really don’t want to pay Boozer the money (which certainly is a possibility, of course).

    32. Jack Bauer

      If it’s Boozer or nothing, sign me up for nothing. Same cap relief and we don’t have to watch another underperforming overpaid player on the court. Knicks have quite enough of that already. PJ will gave to start earning his money with the Melo move, if he can do anything. Should be interesting to see.

    33. vincoug

      No one’s talking about S&T Melo for Boozer straight up. All that discussion has been in the context of also getting back both of Chicago’s 2014 1st rounders and possibly Mirotic. Some people are saying we should be getting Taj and Butler as well but that’s not happening. The reason Boozer is mentioned every time is because he needs to be included to make the salaries match.

    34. ephus

      The hardball move for Phil Jackson would be to announce he will only sign Carmelo to a five year/103 million contract. That contract could not be part of a sign and trade. Without a S&T, the Bulls would have to gut their roster and still are looking at a 4 year/74 million offer. Rockets could get to 4 years/96 million, if they can ditch Lin and Asik, but that is far from a cinch.

      With the luxury tax, the Knicks would be taking on over 30 million in additional salary if they do a S&T with Chicago, and over $40 million if they do a S&T with Houston. That is a big price, even for Dolan. It is more than credible for the Knicks to say they would rather risk Melo leaving than take back Lin/Asik or Boozer/picks.

    35. stratomatic

      I still want to know who the idiot was that thought giving up a pick to get Bargnani was a good move?

      Quite honestly, I almost broke things in my house when I heard that. Bargnani was already the laughing stock of much the advanced stats community with one of the worst contracts in the entire NBA. And we gave away a 1st round pick and reasonable role players to get him. That has to be among the dumbest trades in the history of the NBA. Some trades can work out badly due to injuries or surprise development by young players, but that’s different. There was luck involved. The Bargs trade was unadulterated insanity or stupidity. A fair trade would have been GETTING a good 1st round pick to take that albatross.

    36. JK47

      If it’s Boozer or nothing, sign me up for nothing.

      But it’s not Boozer or nothing. It’s Boozer PLUS ASSETS or nothing.

    37. JK47

      The Knicks are worth what, $400 quintillion dollars? I think Dolan should just eat shit and pay the $30M or whatever it costs in luxury tax to for a year of Carlos Boozer’s corpse, just to net a couple of draft picks. But that’s just me.

    38. Zanzibar

      Sure, Zanzibar, a sign and trade would still make sense for the Bulls, but I don’t think they’d be to the point of throwing in big time assets, unless they really, really don’t want to pay Boozer the money (which certainly is a possibility, of course).

      But Brian, they’re not really giving up any assets. Sure they give up Mirotic, but in return they get 5m mle. Again, they’re in win-now mode the next 2 seasons so that type of trade-off makes more sense for Melo and Bulls.

    39. bobneptune

      The Knicks would have to take Boozer back in any deal. It is not about wanting Boozer. It is about him being a given for any trade (and, as JK47 notes, about telling the Bulls “Is it worth other assets to you to avoid amnestying Boozer?”).

      I believe Chicago is @ ~ 62M this coming season. If they amnesty Boozer and sign Melo in that slot, doesn’t Boozer’s salary still count for luxury tax purposes, making it more important to get him off the books via a trade?

    40. vincoug

      I believe Chicago is @ ~ 62M this coming season. If they amnesty Boozer and sign Melo in that slot, doesn’t Boozer’s salary still count for luxury tax purposes, making it more important to get him off the books via a trade?

      No, it doesn’t count for luxury tax purposes. That’s the whole reason for the existence of the amnesty provision. The only leverage we have regarding Boozer is that I’m sure Reinsdorf, a well-known and notorious cheapskate, wouldn’t want to pay the nearly $17M Boozer’s owed next year.

    41. stratomatic

      1. The Bulls have a lot of incentive to get rid of Boozer in some way other than amnestying him because he’s an expensive piece with little left in the tank and will be cost them plenty even if they amnesty him.

      2. The Bulls have a lot of incentive to add Melo given they seem to think he’s the missing 3rd star and offensive weapon they need.

      3. Melo has a lot of incentive to win NOW, get 5 years, and not leave any (or much ) money on the table while moving past his prime.

      4. The Knicks have an incentive to keep Melo at a price that makes sense (which is less than the max) or to get back players and/or picks that help them start the rebuild.

      So how do you bridge the gap between what everyone wants?

      NY should be willing to take Boozer off Chicago’s hands and give Melo 5 years, but only if it gets back enough value to jump start the rebuild. That means some combination of quality players or picks have to be included. How much and how you get there is debatable. But there are several quality players and picks floating around in Chicago that would satisfy NY and not gut Chicago. There is also the possibility of a 3rd team. Just do it!

    42. Farfa

      Anthony for Boozer and picks in this draft would be pretty ok. But let’s hope the picks aren’t Hairston and Warren.

      Also, if Melo goes to Chicago, do the probability of Bron to Houston go up? I still think Bosh will go elsewhere.

    43. vincoug

      1. The Bulls have a lot of incentive to get rid of Boozer in some way other than amnestying him because he’s an expensive piece with little left in the tank and will be cost them plenty even if they amnesty him.

      2. The Bulls have a lot of incentive to add Melo given they seem to think he’s the missing 3rd star and offensive weapon they need.

      3. Melo has a lot of incentive to win NOW, get 5 years, and not leave any (or much ) money on the table while moving past his prime.

      4. The Knicks have an incentive to keep Melo at a price that makes sense (which is less than the max) or to get back players and/or picks that help them start the rebuild.

      So how do you bridge the gap between what everyone wants?

      NY should be willing to take Boozer off Chicago’s hands and give Melo 5 years, but only if it gets back enough value to jump start the rebuild. That means some combination of quality players or picks have to be included. How much and how you get there is debatable. But there are several quality players and picks floating around in Chicago that would satisfy NY and not gut Chicago. There is also the possibility of a 3rd team. Just do it!

      With the new CBA Melo can’t get a 5-year deal in a S&T; he can only get that if he’s agreeing to stay in NY.

    44. stratomatic

      With the new CBA Melo can’t get a 5-year deal in a S&T; he can only get that if he’s agreeing to stay in NY.

      Ouch, that throws a monkey wrench into my thinking.

      If that the case then the Knicks best move is to make Melo a 5 year offer for quite a bit less than the max (what he is worth anyway) and incentivize him to want to go to Chicago. Then do the S&T.

      If the Knicks offer Melo a 5 year deal at the max and he takes it, I’m going to be calling for Jackson to be fired. We’ll be right back in the same boat we are in now. We’ll have a max player who is not max value and will never fit enough around him to be a serious contender.

    45. Zanzibar

      I still want to know who the idiot was that thought giving up a pick to get Bargnani was a good move?

      I really don’t want to go through this again because I was only very slightly in favor of the bargs trade but consider this: Marco Belinelli’s stats before last season were almost identical to Bargs (check ‘em out on bref). Yet Spurs turned Bells into a .140 WS/48 player in their system. Bargs btw had a WS/48 of about .140 the first month here when he was productive in many stretch 5 lineups before he shifted to PF in those terrible Chandler lineups. If you watched the effect Antic had in that Hawks/Pacers series, you understand the effect Bargs could have had also. Plus we dumped Novak’s contract in the process. All that for a likely 20-30 pick at the time.

    46. bobneptune

      Being a GM in the NBA isn’t easy. According to this piece:

      http://my.chicagotribune.com/#section/545/article/p2p-80585392/

      ….amnestying Boozer only opens an 11M slot for Melo. Other pieces must be traded with nothing in return to open a slot big enough to interest the money grubbing Melo. Hence SnT is more likely.

      Or…. Melo isn’t really interested in leaving and is only trying to create leverage to up his salary here…

    47. vincoug

      I really don’t want to go through this again because I was only very slightly in favor of the bargs trade but consider this: Marco Belinelli’s stats before last season were almost identical to Bargs (check ‘em out on bref). Yet Spurs turned Bells into a .140 WS/48 player in their system. Bargs btw had a WS/48 of about .140 the first month here when he was productive in many stretch 5 lineups before he shifted to PF in those terrible Chandler lineups. If you watched the effect Antic had in that Hawks/Pacers series, you understand the effect Bargs could have had also. Plus we dumped Novak’s contract in the process. All that for a likely 20-30 pick at the time.

      They’re not that similar particularly their shooting percentages. Marco’s a career 39% shooter from 3 and his worst season he shot 35%. Barg’s a career 35% shooter from 3 and he hasn’t shot even that well since 2009-10. His 3-point shooting and much, much faster decision making makes a big difference when comparing to Barg.

    48. bidiong

      If you can trade Melo for a couple 1st rounders and boozer you do it all day. Obviously you go for more and max it out, but there’s something to be had in shipping him to Chicago. About time we cashed in on an investment for a change.

    49. ephus

      @bobneptune,

      The big disparity in salary that Chicago can offer Carmelo in a S&T vs. cap space is the leverage that the Knicks have. Bulls could get to 17 million in space with some feasible moves, but they can get nowhere near 22 million.

      If I were Phil Jackson, I would put Chicago and Melo to the test. Publicly announce 5 year/103 million offer (cannot be part of S&T). Only if Bulls throw Mirotic/#16/#19/Snell into deal would I move to a Four year offer that could be part of S&T. Risk losing him to Chicago for cheap contract. Risk losing him to Dallas. Risk losing him to Houston, if they can dump Lin/Asik.

    50. stratomatic

      Zanzibar,

      There is a gargantuan difference between the statistical expectations of a C/PF and a SG. Bargs is so horrible as a C/PF (which is what he must be compared to) his value is among the worst in the NBA for players that get significant minutes. If he could defend SGs there might be a conversation, but only if they made similar money.

    51. Zanzibar

      They’re not that similar particularly their shooting percentages. Marco’s a career 39% shooter from 3 and his worst season he shot 35%. Barg’s a career 35% shooter from 3 and he hasn’t shot even that well since 2009-10. His 3-point shooting and much, much faster decision making makes a big difference when comparing to Barg.

      Bargs shot career .425 from 10-16 and 16-3 compared to .400 for Bells. The real issue here is that a 3fg% of 35% would have been good enough to accomplish the purpose for which we should have acquired Bargs: draw Hibbert/Lopez/Noah out of the paint. And Bargs did shoot 36% that first month after which his % fell off a cliff. But the descent happened at the same time Woodson started playing him huge minutes in all of those cockemamie lineups. Who knows, maybe he could have maintained his productivity if Woodson had limited his minutes and role to certain lineups just like Spurs limited Bells. It’s not just Bargs – everybody except Melo seemed to play worse last season so Woodson at least to some degree must be accountable in Bargs’ performance as well.

    52. JK47

      There are some very interesting players that could be available with those #16 and #19 picks. How realistic is it, though, to think the Bulls and Knicks could have some backdoor arrangement hammered out by Thursday, so the Bulls could essentially be drafting for the Knicks? That doesn’t seem like a plausible scenario to me.

    53. stratomatic

      If Melo is trying to up his leverage to get more out of NY, we should all chip in and rent the moving vans, pay closing costs on his new Chicago home etc…

      Seriously, if he wants to win, he’s got to realize it’s not happening in NY if he’s maxed out. If he doesn’t understand that by now, then IMO he’s more delusional than most Knicks fans.

      How can NY possible win when you have guys like Duncan/Parker/Ginobili, James/Wade/Bosh, and other younger superstars making less. We might be able to beat the Lakers and Kobe’s albatross contract, but we aren’t winning a title. You can’t build a serious contender when other teams have better core payers and they are making less money.

    54. JK47

      There are really people making the case that trading for Andrea Bargnani was not a terrible idea, both at the time and in retrospect? The guy couldn’t shoot in 2011-2012, he couldn’t shoot in 2012-2013 and he couldn’t shoot in 2013-2014. Take away his shooting and you’re left with… well, not a whole lot. The only good thing about Bargnani is that he’s injury prone so he’ll only kill you for half a season before he inevitably ends up on the IR.

      It doesn’t matter what Bargnani’s “role” is– he’s terrible at everything, in every system, in every role, because he is terrible at basketball. The only reason the Knicks traded for him was so JD And The Straight Shot could open for The Eagles.

    55. ephus

      I have no doubt that the Knicks and Bulls could make the logistics work if they had a sign and trade deal. It’s not that hard to tell the Bulls who to select at 16 & 19.

    56. Jack Bauer

      Why should we help the Bulls by taking Boozer off of their hands?? This sounds like an Isaiah move.

    57. Alecto

      Because we can get picks and players back as opposed to letting Melo leave for nothing? It’s not hard to understand.

    58. flossy

      Are you saying you wouldn’t be pissed if the Knicks had traded the best 3 point shooter in the NBA, a future 1st, two future 2nds and cash for Marco Belinelli? Because I sure would have, and Belinelli is a lot better than Bargs for reasons others have already mentioned.

    59. stratomatic

      Just a reminder, the Nuggets currently hold the rights to swap first round picks with the Knicks in the 2016 season. #melo

    60. Zanzibar

      There is a gargantuan difference between the statistical expectations of a C/PF and a SG. Bargs is so horrible as a C/PF (which is what he must be compared to) his value is among the worst in the NBA for players that get significant minutes.

      First, Bells played SF 2/3 of the time for the Spurs. Second, expectations matter for WP48 but not for WS/48 (use bref to sort by various positions and there’s no real difference). Third, Bargs is a special case – how many stretch 5s are there in the league against which to compare? All that matters is raw +/- for stretch 5 lineups to determine Bargs worth to the team. And those figures were quite good.

      he couldn’t shoot in 2013-2014. Take away his shooting and you’re left with… well, not a whole lot.

      Fair enough but he did shoot 36% the first month when used as a stretch 5. Bargs is a low IQ player and he probably became physically and mentally fatigued playing 35 mpg in ever-changing lineups. Are you really so sure that he couldn’t have maintained a 3fg% >= 34% if Woodson had limited his minutes and role to those lineups? Isn’t it possible that strategy would have helped him to maintain his strength and fostered familiarity which, in turn, could have helped his overall play?

    61. BigBlueAL

      Guys, the draft is this Thurs. Free agency doesnt begin until the following Tues. How can the Bulls and Melo have a deal done already by Thurs where the Bulls can make picks for the Knicks for a s&t?? Its not one bit realistic at all.

    62. Zanzibar

      Are you saying you wouldn’t be pissed if the Knicks had traded the best 3 point shooter in the NBA, a future 1st, two future 2nds and cash for Marco Belinelli?

      Yes I would have because Bells wouldn’t have met a key need. Bargs, at least in theory, might have helped in the playoffs against certain teams unlike Novak (again, I refer you to Antic/Hawks v. Pacers). We witnessed Novak’s lack of contribution in the playoffs and we managed to unload his contract in the deal. I was on record saying we should have signed Jorts (and then we shouldn’t have included a first round pick for Bargs).

    63. JK47

      Just a reminder, the Nuggets currently hold the rights to swap first round picks with the Knicks in the 2016 season. #melo

      Actually, the Knicks don’t even own that pick any more. They traded that pick for Bargnani. Because Knicks!

      Fair enough but he did shoot 36% the first month when used as a stretch 5.

      Yeah, until he completely predictably regressed to the mean and shot even worse than he did the two previous seasons. And furthermore, what difference does it make what role he was in? Why was it magically easier for him to shoot when he was “properly” used as a stretch 5? I watched a lot of the games, and to me it seemed like an awful lot of those threes bricked by our man Bargs were of the wide open variety. I don’t care what “role” you’re in– you can either shoot or you can’t. And he can’t.

    64. ephus

      @BBA, Teams select for each other all the time in order to sidestep the Stepien rule. If Chicago is prepared to give Melo the 4/96 max, it is not too hard to make the deal happen. The picks get assigned salary slot #s for the trade. The rights to Mirotic carry no salary cap impact. Boozer + Snell + 16 + 19 + rights to Mirotic = Melo at the (new team) Max.

      The deal might not happen because (1) Phil Jackson does not like it or (2) the Bulls do not like it. But the logistics are not an impediment to getting this deal (or something similar) done.

    65. stratomatic

      Zanzibar,

      PF/Cs tend to score slightly more efficiently than smaller men because they spend more time around the basket. They also tend to be very good rebounders because they are big and play close to the basket at both ends.

      If you are going to argue that Barg’s lack of scoring efficiency is made up by the fact that he’s a “stretch 5″, he’d have to at least be efficient enough to generate value from beyond the arc. But Bargnani has generally been so bad from beyond the arc, the smartest thing the other team can do is pack the paint and let him shoot. That’s a winning possession for the defense. His stretch 5 abilities are huge liability on offense.

      When you throw on top of that the fact that he’s a terrible rebounder and below average defender, I can’t see how anyone can think he’s anything but horrible as a PF/C. When you throw the salary on top of that it’s open and shut.

      If you want to argue that you thought he would suddenly revert back to his 40% year from beyond arc, then he’s less of a liability, but he’s still not a good player and definitely not good at the price.

      Bargs is one of those players that has been misvalued for a long time because he has some “skills that other big men don’t have” and because he can score points. The problem is none of it translates into value.

    66. stratomatic

      Guys, the draft is this Thurs. Free agency doesnt begin until the following Tues. How can the Bulls and Melo have a deal done already by Thurs where the Bulls can make picks for the Knicks for a s&t?? Its not one bit realistic at all.

      I suppose they can’t legally, but sometimes winks and nods are a part of business. They can also trade those picks for future picks.

    67. Zanzibar

      Why was it magically easier for him to shoot when he was “properly” used as a stretch 5? I watched a lot of the games, and to me it seemed like an awful lot of those threes bricked by our man Bargs were of the wide open variety. I don’t care what “role” you’re in– you can either shoot or you can’t. And he can’t.

      First, he should have been playing fewer minutes. Once the legs go, the shot goes. Had Woodson played Kmart and Cole at center as well, Bargs would not have had to play so many minutes. Second, players get used to a certain flow when they play in stable lineups which typically helps their shooting. Not only Bargs’ shooting dropped off, but also Shump/Felton/JR and others which, at least in part, may be attributable to Woodson’s inability to set the lineups to promote familiarity and flow.

    68. JK47

      I’m gonna go instead with Occam’s Razor: Bargs couldn’t hit a shot because he stinks, and has stunk for quite a long while now.

    69. Zanzibar

      @stratomatic #74 Bargs’ salary is irrelevant to this discussion given our cap situation at the time. Yes he has to shoot a certain % from the arc for this to work. He did just that the first month and, but for Shump’s mistake, we would have beaten the red hot Pacers. What I’m arguing is that if Woodson had been smarter about how he used Bargs (and KMart and Cole) Bargs MIGHT have been able to maintain a sufficiently high 3FG%. Pop figured out how to use Bells and profited; surely you’re not gonna argue Woodson’s approach to Bargs or anything for that matter was optimal?

    70. Alecto

      So I think Zanzibar has Stockholm Syndrome re: Bargs. Sure Woodson maybe could have rested Bargnani more or something, but Bargs has, time and time again, proven that he CANNOT shoot the 3 consistently well. So perhaps resting Bargs more magically renders him a 40% shooter, but that’s relatively unlikely–and we don’t have to accept that alternative over the simpler and more effective explanation that goes thus: Bargs is a shitty player who has one season shooting 40% from three, from which he has continually regressed. He wouldn’t have been useful against the Pacers because he’s a shitty player.

    71. stratomatic

      Zanzibar,

      IMO salary is always relevant.

      If he was making the 2m-3m he’s actually worth as a 2nd or 3rd string PF/C on a mediocre team, you might be able to trade him for a productive player instead of being stuck with him for another year. Granted, his 12m this year is not our only problem (Amare’s 23m is a disaster also), but good management is always about value.

    72. Mr. Jowles, who commands your respect

      This board never ceases to amaze me. We’re still arguing about whether Bargnani can be productive in the NBA. Or how much he’s worth.

      The answer is no, boys. No. Not at any salary. Again, let me spell this out for the geniuses: we know Bargnani is terrible. Truly awful at almost everything. Sign an undrafted rookie for $500k and try to find the next Lin. Wasting a roster space is all you can do by having Bargnani.

      He is terrible. Anthony Bennett is the heir to his throne. I believe I also heard posters talking about taking Bennett back in some kind of trade with the Cavs.

      Un-fucking-real, you guys. Please stop. Stop. You’re hurting me with the stupidity.

    73. bobneptune

      I’m gonna go instead with Occam’s Razor: Bargs couldn’t hit a shot because he stinks, and has stunk for quite a long while now.

      William of Ockham…… getting it right since 1287! :-)

    74. bobneptune

      Un-fucking-real, you guys. Please stop. Stop. You’re hurting me with the stupidity.

      HCJ

      You know the Spurs will be about 10M under the cap this coming season. Maybe Pop will call Melo and see if he is really interested in winning a ring on a 1 year contract :-)

    75. lavor postell

      I disagree with the majority of what Jowles says and I was kind of optimistic Bargs would find his perimeter stroke again, but he fucking nailed it as soon as that trade went down. There is no question that Bargnani is one of the five worst players in the entire league regardless, role, minutes, system, coaching, etc. His sub 30% mark from 3 is even more awful when you consider that almost all of his threes were completely wide open and from the top of the key area which is supposedly his sweet spot. On top of being a horrifically inefficient offensive player, he is a horrible defensive player who doesn’t even grab rebounds to offset how bad his defense is.

    76. ephus

      For real question: would you trade Bargnani’s expiring contract for Larry Sanders. Milwaukee is looking to dump the last three years of Sanders.

      Cons:

      1. Has been injured for much of the last two years.
      2. Substance abuse problems. He is reportedly going to rehab this summer.
      3. Poor impulse control. Bar fight led to one of his major injuries.
      4. Horrible offensive skills. Better than Biyombo, but few others. Has no range beyond 3 feet.

      Pros:
      1: When he is right, Sanders is a dominant defensive player.

      I would do it, knowing it could go horribly wrong.

    77. Kahnzy

      For real question: would you trade Bargnani’s expiring contract for Larry Sanders. Milwaukee is looking to dump the last three years of Sanders.

      Not a chance. One JR Smith level headcase is quite enough, thank you.

      We’ve got one more year of horrible basketball to get through before we reach the promised land of 2015. Let’s just tough it out rather than adding yet another terrible contract to the mix.

    78. lavor postell

      Are the Warriors seriously not going to trade for Kevin Love because they don’t want to give up Klay Thompson? Also interesting to note that Kerr is apparently one of the main voices in dissent of that trade. I like Thompson and I think he’s an underrated defensive player, but if you’re getting Love and Kevin Martin for Thompson, Lee and a 2015 first rounder you have to make that deal.

    79. Mr. Jowles, who commands your respect

      That’s the thing about Love vs. Bargnani, for instance. Both considered poor defenders, but when you say Love is a bad defender, you’re talking about leaving players in a position to score easily. No one will ever say that Love is bad at getting in position to deny an offensive rebound. Bargnani? Fuck Bargnani.

      Steve Nash’s best rebounding season is almost as good as Bargnani’s worst rebounding season. Think about that.

    80. lavor postell

      Fuck Bargnani

      Said every Knicks fan ever. I’d rather have Othella Harrington than fucking Bargnani.

      Steve Nash’s best rebounding season is almost as good as Bargnani’s worst rebounding season. Think about that.

      Seriously how pathetic can you be? On top of that we gave up 3 draft picks for the privilege of watching Woodson run offense through him and play him for over 30 minutes a night.

    81. Zanzibar

      We’re still arguing about whether Bargnani can be productive in the NBA. Or how much he’s worth. The answer is no, boys. No. Not at any salary. Again, let me spell this out for the geniuses: we know Bargnani is terrible.

      Are you willing to be consistent and state categorically that Spurs should not have signed Belinelli? His stats were almost identical to Bargs before this past season (refer to comparison link below). And don’t bring up the draft pick either since you’ve argued it was a mistake to sign Bargs regardless of the pick. And you’ve acknowledged salary is a non-issue.

      Both had similar stats. Bells turned out to be a good acquisition; Bargs did not. Maybe coaching and how the players were used was the difference? Maybe a top 3 coach versus a bottom 3 coach was the difference?

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=belinma01&y1=2013&p2=bargnan01&y2=2013

    82. JK47

      Bargs is a C/PF and Belinelli is a guard. They play different positions. You can live with a guard that’s kind of one-dimensional– doesn’t rebound or defend much. But a center who doesn’t rebound or defend much is a far more serious problem. If Bargs was a guard, he’d be just a regular crappy guard. As a center, he’s uniquely crappy.

    83. Zanzibar

      Nash’s best rebounding season is almost as good as Bargnani’s worst rebounding season. Think about that.

      One day you will understand that boxing out is the critical skill not who grabs the actual rebound. Bargs-at-the-5 lineups did not suffer at all in terms of rebounding for that reason when Melo/JR/Shump swooped in to grab the actual rebound. And once you understand that, WP48 begins to fall apart because it presumes you may treat an individual like a team; team rebounding is very important per WP48 regressions but individual rebounding is not so clear-cut.

      Bargnani is a bad defender at a level David Lee and Kevin Love do not even approach.

      Bargs is a far better 1-on-1 defender than either of those players.

      On top of that we gave up 3 draft picks for the privilege of watching Woodson run offense through him and play him for over 30 minutes a night.

      Precisely! Maybe, just maybe, Woodson is a large part of the problem! Again, minutes and lineups.

      ***
      BTW I’m consistent about the effect of Woodson’s ineptitude. Many of you want to swap Shump for a 25-30 pick? I think that’s nuts. Woodson and the front office adversely impacted Shump’s performance. History strongly suggests Shump’s floor is a solid 3andD player who may also be able to improve his ball-handling skills and drive-and-finish ability. Don’t be so speedy in giving those type of players away. The fact that Presti and the Phoenix GM have shown interest in Shump should make you think twice.

    84. ephus

      I was consistent in pointing out that Bargnani is a surprisingly effective one-on-one post defender. That skill is useful against Dwight Howard and few others.

      He is so bad in playing team defense that he cannot stay on the floor.

    85. Zanzibar

      Bargs is a C/PF and Belinelli is a guard. They play different positions. You can live with a guard that’s kind of one-dimensional– doesn’t rebound or defend much. But a center who doesn’t rebound or defend much is a far more serious problem. If Bargs was a guard, he’d be just a regular crappy guard. As a center, he’s uniquely crappy.

      You’re using a paradigm which doesn’t really apply to stretch 5s. You need to focus on a different set of metrics because of the stark difference compared to a traditional center. I’ve advocated team raw +/- as the appropriate metric for obvious reasons. If rebounding/help defense outweighs floor spacing, it will show up in the +/- stat.

      He is so bad in playing team defense that he cannot stay on the floor.

      The +/- figures for stretch 5 role do not indicate this to be true.

    86. Alecto

      Are we using a 10 game sample of Bargnani successfully defending offensive juggernauts like Roy Hibbert as our proof of Bargs’ good 1-on-1 d? Please. Even if he *is* better 1v1 than Love or Lee (and the only area where he would be is in the post as Ephus said), he is the most incompetent help defender in the league and is an extreme, extreme minus. Why are you so adamant about defending the worst player in the league?

    87. Alecto

      Can we please talk about anything more interesting we’ve all fed Zanzibar enough today

    88. lavor postell

      The Knicks had a top-5 offense after Bargs got injured. That is a pretty damning indictment of a guy who was supposed to be an asset offensively. Defensively the Knicks were -2.2 points per 100 possessions worse with Bargs on the floor and -2.3 per 100 possessions worse offensively with Bargs on the floor.

    89. ephus

      WHY the hell are there still people here trying to defend Bargs????

      Because all of you have to do is leave Bargs open.

      I’ll be here all week.
      Try the veal.
      Don’t forget to tip your waitress.

    90. Zanzibar

      The Knicks had a top-5 offense after Bargs got injured. That is a pretty damning indictment of a guy who was supposed to be an asset offensively.

      I’ve acknowledged that Woodson played Bargs in lineups where he was not effective, mostly Chandler and Bargs together. Also Amare and Bargs but those occurred at the beginning of the season when Amare was terrible regardless of the players on the floor. Knicks faced an easier schedule at the end, but more importantly, Woodson smartened up and played Melo at the 4 in similar lineups to previous season and also a rejuvenated Amare/Melo together. That’s fine – that’s what he should have doing all along instead of Bargs at the 4 and Melo at the 3. I’ve only argued he should have also incorporated stretch 5 lineups featuring Bargs for 15-20 mpg because we very might have needed them in the playoffs just like we did the previous season.

      Defensively the Knicks were -2.2 points per 100 possessions worse with Bargs on the floor and -2.3 per 100 possessions offensively with Bargs on the floor

      I’ve talked to this ad nauseum; the only stat which matters is raw +/- for the stretch 5 lineups in which Bargs thrived. The only surprise in the defensive stat above is that Knicks were not a lot worse on defense considering how bad a defender everyone considers Bargs. And yeah, Bargs is a negative when you play him too many minutes in lineups for which he is not suited. None of that contradicts anything I’ve argued here.

    91. max fisher-cohen

      I don’t understand why you would ever take Butler over picks/Mirotic. Butler is entering the last year of his contract. He’ll be an RFA next summer. You think he’s some uniquely special player, go pay him next summer. Then you have the picks and Butler. Butler won’t get the max, so you just sign him to an offer sheet that the tax-fearing Bulls won’t match. Voila.

      If the Knicks were going to be competitive next season, maybe it’d make sense, but they aren’t, so all Butler will do is hurt their lotto odds.

    92. BigBlueAL

      Marc Stein just tweeted:

      Hearing: Knicks have explored possibility of swapping Iman Shumpert for late first-round pick heading into Thursday’s draft

      Links to OKC are inevitable when subject of Shumpert comes up after OKC showed interest in defensive specialist at trade deadline

    93. Donnie Walsh

      I truly don’t understand what Marco Bellineli has to do with whether Andrea Bargnani fucking sucks or not. He does. and the Knicks suck for not knowing it.

      But Bargnani is just a scrub who the Knicks pay a lot of money to. Carmelo Anthony, if he takes less money to play elsewhere, is the franchise destroyer.

    94. iserp

      Bargnani…. The point of the trade is that he could have been useful if his shooting returned to the form of his first 4 years in the league, instead of the last two. It has not been the case. We also dumped Novak, who was of little use during the playoffs, and was eating our salary cap for 2015. A late 1st rounder (it was the worst of Denver or NY) was a big price even if Bargnani retrieved his shooting form.

      About Bargs actual contributions last year. He was a nice defender 1-on-1, but he is clueless on help defense, and all the switching only exacerbated that weakness. The Knicks played well when Bargnani was injured, but too when Chandler was injured. If you look at the Knicks numbers with only one of them on the court, the team is much better than when both are on the floor. The ultra big lineups were terrible defensively, and we were giving open shots every time…. and since neither Bargs or Chandler could shoot from outside, the spacing was also terrible on offense. Only Bargs or only Chandler worked much better. But ‘the east is big’, you know.

    95. Zanzibar

      @iserp Thank you, finally a voice of reason. I’m not really a Bargs’ advocate; I don’t think he’s a good player. I’d be OK if he didn’t play a single minute this season because I don’t envision a stretch 5 role in the Triangle. But the same could be said for Belinelli who turned out to be productive for the Spurs. People need to go to 82games.com and look at the lineups where Bargs was effective; it’s very obvious. Put some blame on Woodson for not limiting his minutes to those lineups – ultra-spacing units which might have been necessary against teams like Pacers/Bulls/Nets in playoffs. Btw Don’t you think his 1-on-1 defense would have been useful against Hibbert and Lopez?

      Even if Woodson did that, Bargs would still have had to shoot a 3FG% in mid-30s. The first month he shot 36% and then his % plummeted to 18% which left him in the end at 28% average. Does anyone really believe Bargs is an 18% shooter? Something clearly was happening. Is it not at least a plausible hypothesis that the minutes and ever-changing lineups took their toll? We’ll never know but it’s strange that people are not willing to place a lot of the blame on Woodson.

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