Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Thursday, September 18, 2014

Knicks Morning News (2014.06.20)

  • [New York Times] AP Source: Cavaliers Offer Blatt Coaching Job (Fri, 20 Jun 2014 04:13:21 GMT)
    The Cavaliers’ lengthy coaching search could be nearing its conclusion.

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Roundup: Keeping the Heat’s Big 3 Intact Will Be a Priority, Riley Says (Fri, 20 Jun 2014 02:44:23 GMT)
    Pat Riley, Miami’s president, says the team needs to retool, not rebuild, and will do what it can to keep LeBron James, Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade.

  • [New York Times] Draft Picture Hazy After an Injury to Embiid’s Foot (Fri, 20 Jun 2014 00:01:36 GMT)
    Kansas center Joel Embiid, a candidate to be taken No. 1 over all by the Cleveland Cavaliers, is set to have surgery for a stress fracture in his right foot.

  • [New York Daily News] Heat’s Pat Riley all but rules out luring Carmelo Anthony to Miami (Fri, 20 Jun 2014 02:01:52 GMT)
    The Miami Heat wants to keep its Big Three intact, but the Heat isn’t interested in it becoming a Big Four with a max-contract player like Carmelo Anthony.

  • 65 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2014.06.20)

    1. Brian Cronin

      The Cavs are odd. They decide not to give the head coaching job to Lue and then they try to get Lue to leave the Clippers to be part of the staff of Blatt? Why would Lue want to come work for the guy who beat him for them job? Especially when he has a very nice gig on a winning team in Los Angeles already? Odd.

      Plus, I’d have waited to see if Lebron opted out of his contract first before hiring a head coach.

    2. Brian Cronin

      I am a bit irked that the Embiid injury looks like it will work out perfectly for the Celtics. They look to have a real shot at Embiid now. Blech.

    3. Brian Cronin

      Chicago is undeniably a better option than the Knicks next year (providing that Gibson isn’t traded), but yeah, I don’t think it is such a no-brainer that he’ll actually leave.

    4. Nick C.

      Stress fracture in foot/feet + center generally = disappointment, no? Bill Walton, Ilgauskas, Brook Lopez come to mind. Yao as well. Admittedly these guys have ranged from good to on the short list for best center ever or in the NBA when healthy, but it sounds unpromising and I am sure there are career that barely were that I have omitted.

    5. DRed

      I’d probably try to trade down now if I were the Cavs, but I imagine they’ll do something stupid like drafting Wiggins.

      “Knicks, looking to trade up, have eyes on troubled P.J. Hairston”

      How do you trade up if you got no picks? Hairston, Kyle Anderson and Jordan Adams are all in the 24-29 range in Chad Ford’s latest mock. If we could somehow get a late round first I’d be pretty happy with any one of those guys.

    6. tastycakes

      What this team needs is another “troubled” player!

      Other teams are gonna play the Knicks and say “these guys are trouble!”

      (super pro trading into the first round… what would it take though? Shump or THJ good enough for a mid-first? Either are probably too much for a late-first… we have so few assets it’s sad)

    7. Sakei99

      They decide not to give the head coaching job to Lue and then they try to get Lue to leave the Clippers to be part of the staff of Blatt?

      When in doubt, it helps to remember that Dan Gilbert quite literally is a psychopath. This isn’t a joke, he has a history. Even Dolan, bless his incompetent heart, wouldn’t pull half the crap of a DG.

      I’d have waited to see if Lebron opted out of his contract first before hiring a head coach.

      When the owner of a franchise goes out of his way to eviscerate a player in front of a national audience and all but says ‘go fuck yourself and die in a fire’, it’s a pretty safe bet that said player won’t be walking back thru that door.

    8. DRed

      what would it take though?

      I’d trade anyone on this team not named Cole Aldrich. And I’d probably only trade Pablo to the Spurs. I’d think Tyson could still fetch a bottom 1st round pick, but I really have no idea. As for Shump and THJ, I’d be fine trading either one of them, preferably Tim. I think he might have a higher perceived value and he’s so ridiculously bad at everything except scoring that I don’t think his ceiling is particularly high.

    9. tastycakes

      The national media has this weird interest in promoting a “LeBron returns home” narrative… because it’s fun to think about.

      LeBron isn’t leaving Miami, no way no how.

      If only it was as sexy to imagine him in blue and orange… The Knicks reputation and position to make deals is so poor right now it’s startling. Phil Jackson probably needs two successful years exceeding expectations before that changes. He sat down at a table knowing he had a shitty hand to play… hopefully he’s patient enough to wait for the right cards.

    10. Hubert

      I really think LeBron is giving Miami one more year, out of loyalty, and then leaving if they fail to improve on his cast.

      And I think Sakei is right. Gilbert treated LeBron like a runaway slave. Throw in the fact that they are incompetent on every level, and I think him returning to Cleveland while still in his prime is the most unlikely scenario. Especially if you consider that if he goes there, and (as expected) they continue to be incompetent around him, he’s pretty much stuck there for the rest of his career! I mean, he can’t leave them again, right?

      I think he’ll return to the Cavs in his twilight, and not a day sooner.

    11. tastycakes

      How sweet would it be if LeBron said publicly, “I’ll return to the Cavs if Dan Gilbert sells the team”?

    12. stratomatic

      I don’t see the point behind trading Shumpert for a late 1st round draft pick. I think the Knicks are at least as likely to get a worse player as they are a better one. The only possible reason for trading him would be if you think he’s going to get a big payday next year and you already know you are unwilling to give it to him (cap space or other reasons). Then bringing back an asset makes some sense.

    13. stratomatic

      I don’t think Miami will have any trouble upgrading the bench and “retooling”. The real issue is that Wade is clearly starting to decline. He’s playing fewer games, can’t really play back to backs, wearing down during the playoffs, and losing his athleticism. That’s means the big “3″ is starting to become a big “2″ . I thought Pat Riley made some interesting comments about Wade. Wade’s game has been driving to the basket and using his athleticism. He can’t do that as well consistently anymore. So Riley is suggesting he “reinvent” himself. What I think he means is spending the summer in the gym working on his outside shot and becoming more of a spot up shooter and off the ball player. If Wade can do that, he may extend his shelf life and keep the Heat as major contenders.

    14. Hubert

      I don’t see the point behind trading Shumpert for a late 1st round draft pick. I think the Knicks are at least as likely to get a worse player as they are a better one.

      If they could get a player as good as Shumpert, that would have more cost control for a longer period. That’s the point.

      But I share your concern about our likelihood of getting a better player. I have no idea who is doing the scouting, how much work Phil has put into this draft, or anything of that nature. If we’re using Steve Mills’ people, for instance, how much do you really want a pick in this draft?

    15. Hubert

      I don’t think Miami will have any trouble upgrading the bench and “retooling”. The real issue is that Wade is clearly starting to decline.

      But that’s the point. You can add a bench guy here and there, but how can you maintain a championship level while paying $40mm to Wade and Bosh?

      Honestly, who would you rather have for the next two years? Bosh at $20mm+ per year, or Copeland at $3mm? I know Bosh does great things defensively, but he is pretty much nothing more than a worse shooting version of Copeland on offense at this stage in his career.

    16. stratomatic

      I know Bosh does great things defensively, but he is pretty much nothing more than a worse shooting version of Copeland on offense at this stage in his career.

      I can’t agree with you on that. Bosh is under and perhaps incorrectly utilized because James and Wade are on the team and they don’t have a productive C, but he could easily score 20 a night consistently, rebound more, and score in more ways if given that role. Copeland couldn’t even get off the bench for Indiana when they are desperate for scoring.

    17. sugarslim5

      I am a bit irked that the Embiid injury looks like it will work out perfectly for the Celtics. They look to have a real shot at Embiid now. Blech.

      I doubt you’ll ever see embiid on the Celtics.

    18. Hubert

      You’re basing that entirely on Bosh of 2009, though, and really you have no idea if that player still exists. For all we know, the Heat may be maximizing his abilities right now.

      I sure as hell wouldn’t want to be spending 1/3 of the cap on him.

    19. stratomatic

      You’re basing that entirely on Bosh of 2009, though, and really you have no idea if that player still exists. For all we know, the Heat may be maximizing his abilities right now.

      I sure as hell wouldn’t want to be spending 1/3 of the cap on him.

      I’m basing it partly on his history before Miami where he became the 3rd scoring option, partly on games when either James or Wade sat out and he became the 2nd option, and partly on the fact that they want him on the perimeter creating space for James and Wade to get to the basket.

      I agree that he’s not worth 22 million, but I’d take him over a few other players in the NBA making that much. He’s a good “Robin”. He’s not a “Batman”.

    20. DRed

      I was reading through some draft stuff on the WWL, and I found this “analysis” of Zach LaVine:

      “The analytics perspective

      Kevin Pelton: Both the potential and the pitfalls for LaVine are evident in his statistics. He projects as a first-round pick almost entirely on potential. Next season in the NBA, his translated numbers suggest he’ll contribute at a below-replacement level. Scoring efficiently could be a challenge, since he rarely got to the free throw line and wasn’t a particularly accurate shooter on 2s (49.4 percent) or 3s (37.5 percent).

      LaVine will have to hone both his shot selection and his playmaking skills. His assist rate is below average for a combo guard, let alone a point guard, since he played largely off the ball at UCLA. Ultimately, his combination of ballhandling skills, shooting range and size could make him a valuable contributor. ”

      Are they not allowed to write bad things about kids? LaVine might turn out to be a really good pro. But, at least from an analytics perspective, he’s a terrible pick in the lottery. Where is the potential in his statistics? His statistics suck, so I guess they’ve got the potential to be better, but is that supposed to be some sort of analysis?

    21. JK47

      PJ Hairston? Really? I do not get that at all.

      He is exactly the kind of player we all hate: a guy who is just looking to “get his,” an utterly selfish player who pretty much shoots every time he touches the ball. On defense he’s a sieve– low IQ, low effort. On a personal level he seems like a complete train wreck, he has been involved in a “series of personal incidents” that involve guns, cars registered to felons and drugs. He’s like a dumber, less talented JR Smith.

      I cannot think of a single worse player to target in the draft. Hopefully this is a smokescreen, because if Phil Jackson drafts this guy, we all might as well throw in the towel and root for the Nets.

    22. Frank

      RE: THJ – I wouldn’t mind trading him if we could get a mid-1st rounder back. Someone might go for that.

      Re: how bad he is at everything but scoring – that was sort of a new phenomenon for him if you look at his college stats. His last year at Michigan he basically averaged 5 rebounds and 3 assists per 40, which is not so terrible for a SG.

      Defensively though — yeah he was miserable last year. One can only hope that with a real defensive-minded coach he will get better.

    23. DRed

      PJ certainly seems like an idiot off the court (pro tip: if you find yourself driving a rental car with a convicted felon named Fats, something is amiss), but he scores efficiently on it. I don’t know if that’s selfish or not, but if the ball is going through the hoop does it really matter? We’re talking about a hypothetical late pick. Depending on how the draft plays out, if we wind up in the mid 20s, there might be some guys I’d rather have than Hairston, but he’s not a terrible roll of the dice.

    24. DRed

      Also, it was interesting to here Riles talking positively about James Ennis in his rant yesterday. I’d wanted the Knicks to draft him instead of Timmy. Looks like I was wrong about Hardaway, but for the sake of my own smugness I’d like Ennis turn out to be a decent player.

    25. SJK

      Curious: for the Berri guys, who are some mid-late first round guys that WP48 rates highly? Kyle Anderson?

    26. mokers

      Glad to see that Blatt is getting a chance in the NBA. Too bad he wasn’t part of Phil’s circle as I think he will be a good coach. Looks like the Kerr/Fisher deals have really driven up the price of coaches. Blatt has a much longer track record of course, but through it was interesting that three first-time NBA coaches all got hired for > $4 million a year.

    27. JK47

      I thought we were supposed to be “changing the culture” here. Bringing in a guy who only wants to score, doesn’t pass, doesn’t care about defense, likes to play with guns… I mean, that’s a guy who sounds like he would blend right in with the current culture.

      I don’t care how efficiently he scores, PJ Hairston is gonna be a bust. DO NOT WANT

    28. Frank

      I don’t care how efficiently he scores, PJ Hairston is gonna be a bust. DO NOT WANT

      This is based on what?

      Lance Stephenson is a total knucklehead too but we’d all like him on the Knicks.

    29. Mr. Jowles, who commands your respect

      BoxScoreGeeks just posted their draft preview.

      Wiggins does not project well. Looks like there could be several undrafted rookies who could be impact players.

      But as noted in the comments, Andre Drummond was projected to be terrible and he’s been among the most productive big men in the league so far (and he’s only 20).

    30. DRed

      I can tell you without even looking that the Berri guys have a big analytic stiffy for Kyle Anderson

    31. JK47

      By all accounts Hairston is a low-IQ player with zero court vision who is extremely loath to pass the ball, and he only plays defense when he feels like it, which is not often. There are major questions about his character and attitude. Isn’t this exactly the type of player we should be trying to avoid?

      I love Kyle Anderson, who is a versatile box-score stuffer and a real team player.

    32. GoNyGoNYGo

      You know, all this banter is fun and exciting but in my mind here’s the list of things I want:

      1) Point guard
      2) Point guard
      3) Point guard
      4) Point guard
      5) Point guard
      6) Point guard
      7) Point guard
      8) Point guard
      9) Point guard
      10) Point guard

      You get the point.

      The Knicks are WAY over the cap. If we make no changes to the top of the roster (including getting Melo back) but simply replace Felton with a point guard that can play basketball, I’ll be happy. We’ll all be happy. The Knicks, as horrible as 2013-14 was, if healthy, are close enough to compete in 2014-15. In 2015-16 they’ll have 80% of their cap space.

      That all being said, I have zero confidence that we’ll do the right thing.

    33. Sakei99

      “Dan”: Melo at a super max/kobe-esque deal over 5 years, or have him walk for nothing?

      Pelton: I think it’s possible to get carried away with concern over the money. The Knicks are going to spend all their cap space if possible next summer, so the real question is will Melo attract a better second star than they could get by signing two free agents? And I think the answer to that is quite possibly yes.

      Pelton kinda hits the point home here. Or to put it another way, when Melo invariably leaves us, who do we sign next summer? Lets not kid ourselves, without Melo none of the A-List guys are walking thru that door, so no Lebron, Love, or Gasol. The question is do we dole out that money wisely or do we repeat the mistakes of the past, ie miss out on Lebron so sign Amare to a max deal every person on the planet knew was going to end badly.

      Let’s hope after the inevitable loss season, Phil manages to show restraint and not force a move just to prove he can.

    34. Brian Cronin

      You know, all this banter is fun and exciting but in my mind here’s the list of things I want:

      1) Point guard
      2) Point guard
      3) Point guard
      4) Point guard
      5) Point guard
      6) Point guard
      7) Point guard
      8) Point guard
      9) Point guard
      10) Point guard

      If they run the triangle, the point guard position is not that important.

    35. Sakei99

      Funny thought experiment: If/when Love goes to GS they’ll have the best 3PT shooter in the game along with the best 3PT shooting big man, along with the most accurate 3PT shooter in league history calling the plays.

      If your the opposing team how in the world do u guard that PnR? Do you fall back to guard the paint and give up the easy jumper? Do you challenge the shot and risk the drive blowing by you? Do you send out a 3rd help defender to trap leaving the paint open, and hope two of the league’s best passers don’t find a hole?

      I might be rooting for Love to GS just for the highlight reels.

    36. Brian Cronin

      Pelton kinda hits the point home here. Or to put it another way, when Melo invariably leaves us, who do we sign next summer? Lets not kid ourselves, without Melo none of the A-List guys are walking thru that door, so no Lebron, Love, or Gasol.

      With Melo none of those guys were coming through the door, except Gasol, possibly, but only because he’s the only one of the three that would be an option with or without Melo. I assure you Marc Gasol could give a fig about having Melo as a teammate (I’m sure he’s not opposed to the idea, but it isn’t a determining factor. It’s not like they’re friends or anything like that).

    37. bobneptune

      Stress fracture in foot/feet + center generally = disappointment, no? Bill Walton, Ilgauskas, Brook Lopez come to mind. Yao as well. Admittedly these guys have ranged from good to on the short list for best center ever or in the NBA when healthy, but it sounds unpromising and I am sure there are career that barely were that I have omitted.

      Or own Bill Cartwright had a couple of stress fractures in his feet early in his career, along with his majesty Michael Jordan, Clyde Drexler, Andrew Toney and a ‘cast’ of thousands.

      I found this little quote for former Knick’s orthopod form the late 80′s in SI:

      “Dr. Norman Scott, the Knicks’ team physician, agrees, saying, “At least one third of the players in the NBA have had foot fractures of some kind.” That adds up to about 100 players. “

    38. Kahnzy

      If they run the triangle, the point guard position is not that important.

      Offensively, sure. But with Felton they’re still playing 4-on-5 on defense. 3-on-5 if Bargs is in too.

    39. Sakei99

      On a personal love? Sure, I doubt Gasol spends his night rubbing his basketballs thinking of Melo.

      But Melo is a Superstar. And players like winning and for most players, playing alongside other Superstars=Winning. It’s why Melo either goes to play with Harden/D12 or Rose/Noah. It’s why the Superfriends formed up. It’s why if Lebron leaves Miami, the safe bet is on Superfriends 2: CP3/Blake Edition. It’s why we currently have the pleasure of enjoying Love Fest, which itself was preceded by the D12 Escape from the Magic Kingdom (twice!), and the Great CP3 Calamity b4 that.

      If Melo stays do any of them sign up? Honestly? Nah, prolly not… But, there’s always hope.
      Without him? I assure you Gasol/”Insert legit Superstar here” could give a fig about playing for a loser in NY.

      More importantly, you ignored my larger point. Which is where does that money go when the Superstars don’t cum running thru the door? We’ve alrdy been thru the experience once (multiple times actually), and it wasn’t pleasant the first time.

    40. Zanzibar

      Offensively, sure. But with Felton they’re still playing 4-on-5 on defense. 3-on-5 if Bargs is in too.

      Add a soupçon of Timmy and it’s 2-5. Knicks baby!

      Hey, what about Amare? Make that 1-5. And if only we still had Novak, 0-5 though that would raise major philosophical issues.

      But on a more serious note, could we just get Patty Mills? I know 3.2m may not be enough, but he does want to be a starter and the triangle would be a nice fit for his abilities. But what if it’s not enough? I’d say the odds are high Melo to Chicago in S&T for some picks. Maybe Chandler trade nets us a pick. I hope Phil considers this very radical approach: play only rooks and young players in triangle to develop them but also position ourselves for #1 pick in 2015 draft. Tell Amare, Bargs and JR they won’t be getting any minutes next season and offer them buyouts below their contractual salaries. I believe they could then make up the difference when they join new teams. Melo/Chandler trades plus buyouts might put us enough under the apron to enable 5m mle which should be enough to net us Mills. We get Mills and tank develop our young players. Does this approach make any sense?

    41. Zanzibar

      Oops, I left out Boozer so ….Tell Amare, Bargs, Boozer and JR they won’t be getting any minutes next season and offer them buyouts below their contractual salaries.

    42. ephus

      If you squint while looking at Joel Embiid, you can see the reflection of Sam Bowie. His injury makes this draft much weaker.

    43. Brian Cronin

      More importantly, you ignored my larger point. Which is where does that money go when the Superstars don’t cum running thru the door? We’ve alrdy been thru the experience once (multiple times actually), and it wasn’t pleasant the first time.

      But as soon as the Knicks had money, they did get Melo. He had no reason to come here besides it was New York. Hell, he specifically gutted the team and he still came here because it was New York. If the Knicks have cap room, they will bring in a star player. Who that star player is is the question. That was always the madness of Layden and Thomas that it was not until 2009 that the Knicks actually had the cap room to sign a big free agent. Years of shitty teams and yet never had enough cap room to actually sign a big guy. If they had cap room in any of those years, they would have signed whoever star free agent was available then. Chris Webber would have come here. Tracy McGrady would have come here. One of those big guys. Instead, the Knicks never had the cap room to sign anyone. Star players will come to New York because it is New York and it is a lot of money.

    44. Brian Cronin

      Offensively, sure. But with Felton they’re still playing 4-on-5 on defense. 3-on-5 if Bargs is in too.

      Definitely, but what I’m saying is that with the triangle, you don’t have to play Felton. Shump can play the point in the triangle.

    45. GoNyGoNYGo

      @Brian Cronin:
      Yeah, you don’t need a point guard. You need someone like Derek Fisher or Steve Kerr. That’s what we’re looking for. I would call them point guards. You can call them what you like. Do we have that on the team? Do you like our back court? I don’t.

      I don’t like our point guards and I don’t like our shooting guards. When JR Smith is your best guard, you’re not a good team.

    46. Sakei99

      But as soon as the Knicks had money, they did get Melo.

      They didn’t get Melo, Melo got the Knicks. The team doesn’t choose the Superstar, the Superstar chooses the team. It’s a subtle but important distinction.

      He had no reason to come here besides it was New York.

      For one thing, that not’s completely true. Melo (or his people) correctly predicted drastic changes to the CBA (the Lockout as it turned out) were incumming and that he needed to force a trade ASAP or risk losing millions if he opened himself to free agency. The other thing, which I’ll repeat because you ignored, is that Superstars don’t willingly sign up to play with losers. That Knicks team was second in the Atlantic Division and in the thick of the playoff race. Heading into free agency by this time next summer *SPOILER ALERT KNICKS FANS* sans Melo, we’ll have totally missed the playoffs and finished 12th in the East, ahead of only the tanking Philly, Orlando and Milwaukee.

      Hell, he specifically gutted the team and he still came here because it was New York.

      Not according to the Superstar Rule he didn’t. Superstars don’t read advanced metrics or have need of your girlie draft picks. Superstars (especially oblivious ones like Melo) judge Winning talent by the amount of other Superstars joining them. In this case, he went from a team with no other Superstar and joined a team with one (Amare) better yet from his POV he brought the 2nd best player on the Nugs (Chauncey) with him. Two and a Half Superstars! And the Knicks give up Nobody! Becuz I can assure you as far as Melo is concerned Gallinari and Wilson Chandler are nobodies.

    47. Brian Cronin

      Superstars don’t usually leave their teams period.

      But when they do, they certainly do go to bad teams. Hill and T-Mac went to Orlando. Lebron and Bosh went to Miami. Neither team was a good team when they went there but they trusted (wrongly in one of those instances) that they would build a good team around them.

      Hell, Los Angeles was a worse team in a tougher conference than Orlando when Shaq decided to go there (and they also had to gut their team to get him).

      Superstars like winning but they also like big markets. They also think that they can make the former happen in the latter by virtue of going there. The Knicks have had cap room once in the past fifteen years and they got Amar’e Stoudemire and Carmelo Anthony to come play for them. If the Knicks have cap room, they will get a major player to come here. Any notion that star players won’t come here without Melo is just completely off base.

    48. Sakei99

      If the Knicks have cap room, they will bring in a star player.

      I have no doubt they’ll try. But as I said Superstars doing the choosing.

      Who that star player is is the question.

      Well yea… That’s kinda what I’ve been saying all along.

      they would have signed whoever star free agent was available then.

      Again… that’s kinda been my point. Are we signing true Superstars or “whoever is available”.

      Tracy McGrady would have come here.

      It’s very interesting that you used McGrady as an example. If only becuz you just proved my point for me. In 2000, Peak McGrady spurned the major market Bulls, a team that made no secret how badly it wanted him and quite publicly bent over backwards for him, for the small market Magic and moar importantly the opportunity to team with fellow Superstar Grant Hill. In point of fact McGrady was quite vocal that teaming with Hill was his major reason for signing.

      Star players will come to New York because it is New York and it is a lot of money.

      As you may have noticed recently from all the Superstar movement going on, money means nothing to Superstars. Not becuz they’re practicing Buddhists. But becuz thanks to max salaries, its a moot point, they’ll make that money where ever they go. In fact, if your argument is money, NY and its top ten highest income tax in the country would be a reason not to sign here.

      As for playing in NY. Yea, all things being equal, I have no doubt a major market like NY would be awesome. But alas all things are not equal, and winning (and the fun of playing with perceived equals) matters to Superstars. As Chicago found out with McGrady, as LA found out with D12.

    49. Brian Cronin

      Sure, they could pick poorly again, they could not. I don’t know. I am not particularly worried about it. Especially with Dolan presumably letting Phil Jackson make the decisions, so we won’t have Dolan mucking things up like he did with the Melo trade. If Dolan had just listened to Walsh, the team likely would have been fine. They’d either have gotten Melo or they would have gotten Chris Paul and still had room to work with.

    50. Sakei99

      The Knicks have had cap room once in the past fifteen years and they got Amar’e Stoudemire.

      I was waiting for you to bring this up. Yea, we got the broken down guy no other GM would touch with a ten foot pole. A guy everyone but Dolan knew going in would break down by the third year. As it turned out that was being nice, he started breaking down in year 2. This was a contract rated worst contract in the NBA by a country mile by both Hollinger and Pelton. This is exactly what worries me. Thank you for proving my point.

      But when they do, they certainly do go to bad teams. Hill and T-Mac went to Orlando. Lebron and Bosh went to Miami. Neither team was a good team when they went there but they trusted (wrongly in one of those instances) that they would build a good team around them.

      That’s what the second time now, you ignored what I said. Superstars use other superstars as a quick gauge measure of Winning talent. T-Mac + Hill + Mike Miller = Winning. Lebron + Bosh + Wade = Fuck Yea U Bet Yo Ass We Winning

      Hell, Los Angeles was a worse team in a tougher conference than Orlando when Shaq decided to go there (and they also had to gut their team to get him).

      Worse is a bit of an over statement. LA finished 2nd in the Pacific Division, 7 wins behind Orlando. Which I guarantee you Shaq knew he would make up. And which he did, LA finished ahead by 11 wins the following year. And I loathe to compare opponents since most players are too narrow minded to care about other teams. But since you bring up conferences, Shaq had apparently just been swept by sum guy named Michael Jordan. I don’t know who this Jordan guy is either but apparently he had sumthing of a rep.

      Sure, they could pick poorly again, they could not. I don’t know

      You, me, and about 5 million other Knicks fans. And that’s worries me.

    51. Brian Cronin

      I was waiting for you to bring this up. Yea, we got the broken down guy no other GM would touch with a ten foot pole. A guy everyone but Dolan knew going in would break down by the third year.

      The broken down guy that no one wanted to touch but somehow he was enough to draw Melo here? That makes no sense. Either he was a draw, in which case he was a star, which shows that the Knicks can attract a star without being a good team or he wasn’t a star, in which case Melo came to the Knicks just because he wanted to come to New York, which shows that the Knicks can attract a star without being a good team.

      T-Mac + Hill + Mike Miller = Winning

      If they don’t bring back Melo, they will be bringing in two guys in 2015, so the Hill/McGrady stuff applies (As a quick aside, Mike Miller? Give me a break that the promise of fifth pick in a shitty draft Mike Miller impacted Hill and T-Mac’s decision to come to Orlando based in the slightest bit. It didn’t negatively affect them, but it sure as shit didn’t factor into them deciding to come to Orlando). They’ll be a clean slate for whatever pairings they can get. Maybe they’ll go three less than max guys. Maybe two max guys. I dunno. I’m not worried about it.

      That said, I’d certainly prefer it if Melo were to come back here at a discount. That’d be swell. That’s my #1 preference – him coming back at a discount. But if he doesn’t come back, I’m fine with Phil Jackson rolling with an empty cap in 2015. They’ll be fine in either scenario.

    52. Sakei99

      The broken down guy that no one wanted to touch but somehow he was enough to draw Melo here?

      Nice try. Funny how one word can make all the difference. Here’s what I actually said:

      we got the broken down guy no other GM would touch

      Here’s me repeating myself a third time, just so I’m being purrfectly clear

      Superstars don’t read advanced metrics or have need of your girlie draft picks. Superstars (especially oblivious ones like Melo) judge Winning talent by the amount of other Superstars joining them.

      Or to put it out there again, players are not GM/analysts. Surprisingly most of them don’t know or give a shit who Kevin Pelton or Tom Haberstroh are. They judge Winning potential differently.

      they will be bringing in two guys in 2015

      So said Chicago to T-Mac, so sayeth Lakers fans to D12. And yet they still left.

      Tell me, if the roster stands roughly as it now, who exactly are these two players you’re so sure we’ll be bringing in.

    53. JK47

      The idea that you need to sign Melo to bring in other star players is completely wrongheaded. It is EXACTLY the kind of boneheaded thinking that led to the terrible Amar’e Stoudemire contract, and hopefully the people in charge now won’t think like this and give out a similarly idiotic contract to Carmelo Anthony.

      You can’t afford to whiff on a max contract in this game. You have to give out max contracts because you’re bringing in basketball players who are true max contract players. You shouldn’t give out a max contract to someone because he’s one of the “cool kids,” in the hope that he’s going to convince players better than him to come play for your team.

    54. Sakei99

      The idea that you need to sign Melo to bring in other star players is completely wrongheaded.

      No where did I say I wanted Melo back.

      You have to give out max contracts because you’re bringing in basketball players who are true max contract players.

      I just spent five posts saying this.

    55. JK47

      I just spent five posts saying this.

      You’re a little bit all over the place. I can’t really exactly figure out the argument you are making.

      But according to you, we apparently agree, so, um, cool.

    56. Brian Cronin

      Or to put it out there again, players are not GM/analysts. Surprisingly most of them don’t know or give a shit who Kevin Pelton or Tom Haberstroh are. They judge Winning potential differently.

      Sure, but whatever they judge it on, the Knicks got their star five years ago. Again, when they have cap room, they get stars to come play for them. Hence me not being worried about Jackson bringing in stars when the time comes. When the Knicks get cap room, they will get stars to come here. On that point, if Jackson was in Los Angeles last year, I doubt Howard leaves them.

      Tell me, if the roster stands roughly as it now, who exactly are these two players you’re so sure we’ll be bringing in.

      Dunno, it’s a year away. I’m sure Phil Jackson will pick some good guys, whether he goes two MAX guys or decides to go with some lesser guys in the hope of enticing Durant the following year. I dunno what he’ll do, but so long as the Knicks have a ton of cap space and Phil Jackson, they’ll entice some star here.

      That said, I do think it is fair to say that Jackson is not going to sign whoever the STAT of 2015 is. So that’s good. If there truly isn’t a star available in 2014, he’ll spend less money on lesser guys and try again in 2016. He won’t be desperate, which is probably the best thing we can hope for. So yes, if that’s the worry (the Knicks signing a guy just to sign a guy, like they did with STAT)- then I don’t think we need to worry about that.

    57. yellowboy90

      Would Andre Iggy be like the 2.0 version of Ron Harper? Is Kerr going to run the triangle? How would Curry fit in that offense? Maybe Kerr goes to more of what he learned from Pop but is what he learn similar to what the spurs do today.

    58. Farfa

      But what exactly is a superstar? Is Melo really a superstar? Is a guy a superstar just for the sake of being one or is it about winning?

      As of now, if Melo walks away, even for nothing, I’ll be happy. I’ll understand his choices, and since his choices seem to have nothing to do with Phil’s ideas, well then, Melo, that’s the door. He’s been good this season. He really tried. But he couldn’t lead anything or anyone. And we need a leader. Even if we get him next year. Or the year after. Give me solid players. Give me solid coaching. I’ll be fine without a superstar, if said superstar isn’t all about winning.

    59. Mr. Jowles, who commands your respect

      “Superstars don’t read advanced metrics or have need of your girlie draft picks. Superstars (especially oblivious ones like Melo) judge Winning talent by the amount of other Superstars joining them.”

      This certainly makes it look like the poster assigns high value to “player ability as perceived by peers,” which is a dangerous route to build a team around.

      And by dangerous, I mean that it is the strategy that has made the Knicks suck total ass for near fifteen years now.

    60. Hubert

      Sakei, I think you’re overlooking the fact that if Melo leaves, not using our cap space in 2015 will be a good thing.

      The only max free agent worth pairing with Melo is LeBron. I kinda want Melo at the price he is worth (I refuse to say discount bc he is not a max player, no way no how) if only to see if we can get James here next year. But other than that I don’t want us signing guys in 2015. I want to draft players and build a team the real way.

    61. Farfa

      Totally agree with Jowles.

      Also, would you like to have a “Superstar” like James Harden? I’m very conflicted about it. On one hand, he’s obviously a great scorer (and somehow an efficient one at that). On the other hand, his greatness completely plummets in the playoffs. I’m not sure about his superstardom (but I suppose it could also depend on coaching).

    62. Farfa

      But other than that I don’t want us signing guys in 2015. I want to draft players and build a team the real way.

      +1 Hubert.

    63. Sakei99

      the Knicks got their star five years ago.

      No they didn’t. They made no attempt to hide Lebron/Bosh were there priorities. When they swung and missed there they overpaid for a fake max contract guy no one else wanted and so as not to feel left out.

      If there truly isn’t a star available in 2014, he’ll spend less money on lesser guys and try again in 2016. He won’t be desperate, which is probably the best thing we can hope for.

      I assume u mean 2015, not 2014 here. But yes fair enuff. I hope they don’t make desperation signs either, but as the expression goes “becuz Knicks”. So I’m skeptical.

      This certainly makes it look like the poster assigns high value to “player ability as perceived by peers,” which is a dangerous route to build a team around.

      Really? Tell me where I said that, go on I’ll wait. Did I say “player ability as perceived by peers,”? Yea, essentially. Did I once ever say that I personally would build a team around that. Well it would be a dangerous assumption to make, and by dangerous I mean dead ass wrong.

      In case people are confused, I am neither Carmelo Antony nor am I a Superstar (though it can be hard to tell the difference I know). When I say “Carmelo/Superstar” do this/that/whatever, quite surprisingly I am not speaking for myself. In fact, all I did was ask the question of where do we go next from here (when Melo inevitably leave us)? And yet somehow this repeatedly gets twisted into a straw man argument I never made. But yes if people want to make pull the straw man that signing Peter to pay Paul, is stupid then yea I agree that the stupid thing I never said, is in fact stupid.

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