Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Monday, July 28, 2014

Knicks Morning News (2014.02.24)

  • [New York Daily News] Isola: Reeling Knicks a mess three years into Anthony era (Mon, 24 Feb 2014 03:54:51 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony’s grand entrance was accompanied by the song “I’m Coming Home,” which always seemed a little odd since Anthony, despite being born in Brooklyn, considers Baltimore his hometown.    

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Opening Tip: Will Melo stay or will he go? (Mon, 24 Feb 2014 06:00:37 EDT)
    The Knicks have lost eight of 10 and are 5 1/2 games out of the final playoff spot.Nothing about this season has followed the script that players, management and ownership envisioned back in September. Unless the Knicks can string together some wins to close the regular season, there really will only be two story lines to pay attention to from here on out: Mike Woodson’s job status and Carmelo Anthony’s free agency.Looking at Melo’s situation, could you blame him if he wanted to walk away from this team when he hits the free-agent market this summer?

  • [New York Times] A Place for Collins, and His Style of Basketball (Mon, 24 Feb 2014 09:10:46 GMT)
    NBA players insisted since last spring there would be a place in the locker room for Jason Collins.    

  • [New York Times] Scoreless Collins Receives Warm Welcome on Nets Debut (Mon, 24 Feb 2014 06:48:45 GMT)
    Jason Collins did not register a single point on Sunday, but he scored a moment for basketball history as he became the first openly gay player to appear in an NBA game.    

  • [New York Times] Collins Back in NBA, Nets Beat Lakers 108-102 (Mon, 24 Feb 2014 06:04:03 GMT)
    Although Jason Collins played only 10½ minutes in his first game with the Brooklyn Nets, it was a groundbreaking appearance.    

  • [New York Times] Beverley’s 3 Helps Rockets Down Suns 115-112 (Mon, 24 Feb 2014 05:09:57 GMT)
    Patrick Beverley sank the go-ahead 3-pointer with 34.3 seconds to play and the Houston Rockets escaped with 115-112 victory over the Phoenix Suns on Sunday night.    

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Roundup: Clippers Give Thunder More Trouble at Home; Heat Win Without James (Mon, 24 Feb 2014 04:54:14 GMT)
    Jamal Crawford scored 36 points to help the Los Angeles Clippers overcome Kevin Durant’s 42 points and hand the Oklahoma City Thunder their second loss in a row at home.    

  • [New York Times] Lillard Leads Blazers Past T-Wolves 108-97 (Mon, 24 Feb 2014 04:51:57 GMT)
    Damian Lillard had 32 points and the short-handed Portland Trail Blazers rallied to beat the Minnesota Timberwolves 108-97 on Sunday night.    

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Game of the Week: The Second Tier at Its Best (Mon, 24 Feb 2014 04:42:52 GMT)
    The return of point guard Chris Paul has elevated the offense of the Clippers, but they will also have to do a solid job on defense against the Rockets.    

  • [New York Times] Nets 108, Lakers 102: Nets’ Win Is Ordinary, Though the Night Is Anything But (Mon, 24 Feb 2014 04:33:19 GMT)
    Jason Collins, who said he was trying to focus on his job rather than on his place in history, was scoreless with two rebounds in a victory over the Lakers.    

  • [New York Times] Thomas, Gay Push Kings Past Nuggets 109-95 (Mon, 24 Feb 2014 03:51:56 GMT)
    Isaiah Thomas scored 33 points, Rudy Gay had 32 and the Sacramento Kings routed the Nuggets 109-95 on Sunday night for their first win in Denver in six years.    

  • [New York Times] Jason Collins, First Openly Gay N.B.A. Player, Signs With Nets and Appears in Game (Mon, 24 Feb 2014 03:09:46 GMT)
    The 35-year-old center signed a 10-day contract and took the court Sunday night against the Lakers.    

  • [New York Times] Collins Enters Game, NBA’s 1st Openly Gay Player (Mon, 24 Feb 2014 02:58:24 GMT)
    Jason Collins has become the first openly gay player to see action in an NBA game.    

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: N.B.A.’s 10-Day Contract Is Essentially a Job Tryout (Mon, 24 Feb 2014 02:39:10 GMT)
    With Jason Collins agreeing to a 10-day contract with the Nets it is worth looking into what the contracts mean and how they work.    

  • [New York Times] Nets’ Collins Becomes NBA’s 1st Openly Gay Player (Mon, 24 Feb 2014 02:34:07 GMT)
    History? Pressure? Jason Collins would have none of it after becoming the NBA’s first openly gay player.    

  • [New York Times] On Pro Basketball: Collins Finds Spot Again, Moving the N.B.A. Forward (Mon, 24 Feb 2014 02:16:49 GMT)
    No matter how few minutes he gets, count on the Nets’ Jason Collins to embrace his role as the first openly gay and active athlete in one of the four major American professional sports leagues.    

  • [New York Times] Lowry Scores 28 and Raptors Beat Magic 105-90 (Mon, 24 Feb 2014 02:10:10 GMT)
    Kyle Lowry scored 28 points, DeMar DeRozan had 24 and the Toronto Raptors beat Orlando 105-90 Sunday night, handing the Magic their 15th straight road loss.    

  • [New York Times] Wall, Beal Lead Wizards Past Cavaliers 96-83 (Mon, 24 Feb 2014 01:49:17 GMT)
    John Wall scored 21 points, Bradley Beal had 17 and the Washington Wizards beat the Cleveland Cavaliers 96-83 on Sunday night.    

  • [New York Times] Heat Beat Bulls Without LeBron, 93-79 (Mon, 24 Feb 2014 00:36:53 GMT)
    LeBron James watched from the bench in a stylish gray suit, and with the game deadlocked at halftime, he took off his necktie.    

  • 69 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2014.02.24)

    1. njasdjdh

      It’s mostly games against TOR, BKN, a pair of Utah games, etc. So while they are playing teams over 500, they’re not necessarily playing good teams. Or at least, the Knicks will have more talent when taking the floor against most of their upcoming opponents. Whether or not Woodson will find new ways to screw it up, that remains to be seen. But in all seriousness, the Knicks have a shot at the 6-8 seeds, only because of the fact that all teams that are not IND or MIA (maybe TOR and CHI) are too unpredictable. Like ATL was the clear cut 3 seed not too long ago, and yet as of last night they were scrapping for the 8th seed. So anything can happen, but with Woodson at the helm, the NYK expectations should be tempered. 8th Seed here we come!

      I continue to be amazed that there are people who look at the Knicks schedule and discuss how “they don’t play that many games against good/above .500 teams so they might make the playoffs” as though the Knicks don’t have one of the worst records in the entire league…

      I agree that it will take a 37-45 record to make the playoffs in the East. The Knicks are now 21-35. They will have to finish 16-10. Looking at the remaining schedule I would be shocked if the Knicks won the following games: @ MIA, vs GSW, @CHI, @ MIN, vs IND, @ PHX, @ GSW, @ MIA, @ TOR , vs TOR,

      That’s 1o losses right there. I think these games are 50/50: vs DAL, @ DET, @ CLE, @ SAC, @ UTA, vs BRK, vs WAS, vs CHI, @ BRK

      Let’s say the Knicks play well and go 6-3. You’re already looking @ 6-13. Now, of course, I’m assuming we win the following 7: vs UTA (about .500 in the WC since Trey Burke showed up), vs PHI (eked out a 4 pt victory last time we faced them at home), @ BOS (already beat us twice this year), vs MIL (we’re 2-1 against them YAY!), @ PHI (Lost to them in Philly last time we went there), vs CLE (1-1 season series. They have Kyrie, we can’t guard PGs), @ LAL.

      In summation, playoffs!?

    2. er

      The Knicks could make the playoff. But theres like a 1% chance. They are a horrible team.Chandler and Anthony are the only players worth a damn. And Chandler can rarely give you 10 points. Only way they can is if all the teams in front just collapse

    3. Hubert

      continue to be amazed that there are people who look at the Knicks schedule and discuss how “they don’t play that many games against good/above .500 teams so they might make the playoffs” as though the Knicks don’t have one of the worst records in the entire league…

      People accept reality at different moments.

      Personally, I’m at the point where I think if the rest of the schedule consisted only of Orlando, Milwaukee, Philadelphia, and Sacramento, we would still miss the playoffs as long as Woodson is the coach.

    4. Donnie Walsh

      I think these games are 50/50: vs DAL, @ DET, @ CLE, @ SAC, @ UTA, vs BRK, vs WAS, vs CHI, @ BRK

      50/50??

      The Knicks can’t even beat teams that are losing on purpose.

      The Knicks will lose 65% of their remaining games. They have told us who they are. We should believe them.

    5. flossy

      The Knicks could make the playoff. But theres like a 1% chance. They are a horrible team.Chandler and Anthony are the only players worth a damn. And Chandler can rarely give you 10 points. Only way they can is if all the teams in front just collapse

      Wasn’t it about 48 hours ago that you were insisting “the Knicks will make the playoffs whether you like it or not?”

    6. flossy

      Eh. I didn’t see anything over the past 2 games I hadn’t seen over and over and over for the past 3 months.

    7. thenamestsam

      The thing is, it’s not like you can even hang your hat on the idea that this Knicks team is streaky. We haven’t had one stretch all year that would be good enough to get us in the playoffs. We have had exactly 1 26 game stretch this season where we won more games than we lost, and we were 14-12 in that stretch. Now we need to finish at least 16-10 and more likely about 18-8. It’s not impossible but it assumes we’re just about to start playing at a level we haven’t approached at any point this season. I certainly didn’t see much evidence of that over the weekend. Even if we did reel off such an unlikely run, barring about 6 teams collapsing we’d get the distinct privilege of taking a consolation game off Indy or Miami mixed in with 4 shellackings.

      Basically for all intents and purposes, the season is over. I’ve been on the fire Woodson bandwagon since about the 5th game, but at this point it’s too late. It would be a cathartic moment but it’s not going to do any good this year. We’re just playing out the string with 26 games left. Hard to believe. This is not how I expected this season to go.

    8. er

      Wasn’t it about 48 hours ago that you were insisting “the Knicks will make the playoffs whether you like it or not?”

      Well that was before shumpert hurt himself and woody started putting hard away on PGs. And as the great Hubert said , reality hits ppl at different points

    9. hoolahoop

      That Woodson remained coach for the whole season is an insult and disrespectful to the fans. Although it still should be done, firing him now is “almost” more of an insult.

      With relatively the same team as last year, J. Kidd coached the knicks to twice as many wins.

      Sometimes I wonder if Woodson undermined D’antoni and pounced on the opportunity of his departure, now clinging on with every manipulative ounce of strength he has.

    10. Brian Cronin

      Woody made a biiiig deal out of Larry Drew doing that to him in Atlanta (plotting against him to get his job) so I would like to believe that he wouldn’t do it to another coach.

    11. JK47

      The Knicks are 2-8 in their last ten games, with losses to the Bucks, Kings, Magic and free-falling Hawks making up half of those eight losses. They have the fourth worst defensive rating in the NBA and are 14 games under .500 despite playing a schedule that ranks as the 23rd most difficult in the league.

      When the Knicks’ opponents shoot the ball, it generally goes in, evidenced by their rank of 28th in defensive eFG%. And just to make things a little more helpful for their opponents, they foul a lot. A LOT. Dead last in the league in FT/FGA, 30th in the NBA.

      They’re 5.5 games out of the 8 seed and would have to jump over two teams to get there.

      But yeah, playoffs!

    12. Donnie Walsh

      Woody made a biiiig deal out of Larry Drew doing that to him in Atlanta (plotting against him to get his job) so I would like to believe that he wouldn’t do it to another coach.

      The fact that it’s on his mind at all shows that that’s the way he thinks.

    13. DRed

      Amare, Felton, THJ, Bargnani-those have to be 4 of the 20 worst defensive players in the NBA. Sadly they’ve only played 13 minutes together this year. We really had a chance to do something special.

    14. flossy

      Can you believe that there are 4 teams worst on defense than the Knicks?

      Jesus…

      Well, I’ve heard that with the 2014 draft so highly-touted, some teams might not be quite giving it their all this year.

    15. johnno

      “some teams might not be quite giving it their all this year.”
      I wish that I could remember who had the great line earlier this year about how the Nuggets had “outsourced their tanking to the Knicks…”

    16. er

      It’s amazing that out of all of the terrible Knicks moves, the billups picking up of the option and amnestying could be the worst lol

    17. hoolahoop

      Woody made a biiiig deal out of Larry Drew doing that to him in Atlanta (plotting against him to get his job) so I would like to believe that he wouldn’t do it to another coach.

      Have you ever criticized someone for doing something, only to find yourself doing the same thing or something similar? If not, pay more attention.

    18. ephus

      Philadelphia is going to be much better next year. They will add:
      1. Nerlins Noel;
      2. Their own first round pick (virtually certain to be top 5);
      3. The Pelicans first round pick, unless the Pelicans get into the top 3 in the lottery (pick is protected 1-5); and
      4. Free agents with more than $30 million in cap space.

      I think Philadelphia is the dark horse to bid on Carmelo Anthony. If Carmelo does not want to move, he and Lala can continue to live on Fifth Avenue and he can commute to Philly for games (Wilt did).

    19. Owen

      “Can you believe that there are 4 teams worst on defense than the Knicks?

      Jesus…”

      I had that exact same thought during the Atlanta game.

      Re: outsourcing tanking, yes, hilarious. David Walker, True Hoop….

      Philly would actually be a really interesting spot for Carmelo, although Thaddeus Young, who I guess will be gone, is sort of redundant in that case…

    20. The Ghost of Ted Nelson

      Philadelphia is going to be much better next year. They will add:
      1. Nerlins Noel;
      2. Their own first round pick (virtually certain to be top 5);
      3. The Pelicans first round pick, unless the Pelicans get into the top 3 in the lottery (pick is protected 1-5); and
      4. Free agents with more than $30 million in cap space.

      I think Philadelphia is the dark horse to bid on Carmelo Anthony. If Carmelo does not want to move, he and Lala can continue to live on Fifth Avenue and he can commute to Philly for games (Wilt did).

      Philadelphia also has 5 2nd round picks this year. (If the season ended right now and the lottery held true to record they would own the #2, #11, #32, #39, #44, #49, #56).

    21. yellowboy90

      Would you trade Tim Hardaway for a PG? I think Courtney Lee is a pretty good comparison for who THjr is and may grow to be. Can he become something special? I guess it is possible but special players usually show something more than just scoring, imo.

      Courtney Lee and add ins were traded for Vince Carter and Ryan Anderson. Now Vince didn’t get them over the top but they still won nearly 60 games and got a good young player. Now, the goal would not to get another Vince but a better player. So, would you do it?

      Has the land scape change to much that a deal like this would not work?

      Also if you say no, would it be because of past and the lack of “home grown” talent?

    22. thenamestsam

      Philly and Boston will be kicking our asses well into the 2020s.

      People were posting the exact same thing about Cleveland two years ago with their bonanza of draft picks – hasn’t quite worked out that way so far and it’s not looking like it’s going to either. Any ass-kicking being administered has a lot more to do with our own foibles than with their greatness. Draft picks are wonderful, and having lots of them doubly so, but they don’t guarantee much of anything. I’d love to see the Knicks commit to really rebuilding (also: not go out of their way to toss an extra pick or two in every deal) but I’m not handing future Atlantic division supremacy to a couple of god-awful teams (worse than the Knicks! And that’s saying something!) because they have 3 or 4 extra picks. Not saying I wouldn’t rather be in their shoes, but acting like it’s a foregone conclusion is putting the cart before the horse in my opinion.

    23. Frank

      Interesting article by Toure Murry’s agent re: Melo signing for less – specifically the part about the value of 2nd round picks as basically being the cheapest contract there is not just because they are rookie contracts but because for tax purposes they count for only about 50% of even a rookie FA contract. That guy in Philly knows what he’s doing. The guys in NYC — not so much.

      http://hoopshype.com/columns/bernie-lee/why-the-cba-is-bad-for-almost-everyone

    24. Donnie Walsh

      People were posting the exact same thing about Cleveland two years ago with their bonanza of draft picks – hasn’t quite worked out that way

      It matters a lot which draft your bonanza of picks are in. In 2014 you can rebuilt your franchise, literally, in one night.

    25. ephus

      I’m not saying that Philly will definitely be better than the Knicks next year.

      I am saying that Philly management can present Melo/CAA with a coherent plan on how he could immediately compete for a championship as a Sixer. Remember, by July 1 (when Melo has to make his decision) Philadelphia will have utilized its draft picks. I could see Philly management whispering with CAA to determine what draft picks would make Philadelphia a more enticing landing spot for Melo.

    26. Owen

      “People were posting the exact same thing about Cleveland two years ago with their bonanza of draft picks – hasn’t quite worked out that way so far and it’s not looking like it’s going to either. ”

      This whole argument is kind of bogus. Sure, draft picks can go wrong. But it’s difficult to see many realistic ways of building a good team that don’t include signing and affordably extending homegrown talent.

      Signing Lebron or Durant to max contracts would work, sure. But short of that it’s really difficult to build in other ways.

    27. The Ghost of Ted Nelson

      Philly and Boston will be kicking our asses well into the 2020s.

      If the season ended right now Boston would own the #4 and #16 pick. (And, of course Boston owns all of New Jersey’s picks until 2018).

      the value of 2nd round picks as basically being the cheapest contract there is not just because they are rookie contracts but because for tax purposes they count for only about 50% of even a rookie FA contract. That guy in Philly knows what he’s doing.

      Other teams with multiple 2014 picks are:

      Suns: (#13, #14, #21, #30, #51)
      Bucks (#1, #31, #35)
      Bulls (#17, #18, #48)
      Hornets (#10, #25, #45)
      Nuggets (#8(!), #42, #55)
      Raptors: (#20, #50, #59)
      Wolves: (#41, #46, #53)

      Philly management can present Melo/CAA with a coherent plan on how he could immediately compete for a championship as a Sixer. Remember, by July 1 (when Melo has to make his decision) Philadelphia will have utilized its draft picks. I could see Philly management whispering with CAA to determine what draft picks would make Philadelphia a more enticing landing spot for Melo.

      Philadelphia can also use it’s cap space and litany of picks to acquire the Rondos, Loves, Lowrys, Asiks, Saunders, Monroes of the world (or anybody else that might become available around draft time).

      (But there are a lot of other teams out there that can present Carmelo Anthony with great plans too, and he has foolishly limited himself to cities where he has no chance to win/go to. So, of course, he’s not “all about winning a championship”.)

    28. thenamestsam

      It matters a lot which draft your bonanza of picks are in. In 2014 you can rebuilt your franchise, literally, in one night.

      It’s by all accounts a great draft, but people’s perceptions of a draft have basically everything to do with the guys who will go off the board with the first 15 or so picks and almost nothing to do with the guys who will go in the 2nd round. Philly will likely have 1 pick in the high lottery and another late lottery pick. Boston will likely have 1 pick in the high lottery and one not too far outside it (least favorable of Hawks and Nets). I think there’s a good chance that at least one of them will draft a perennial all-star level player with one of those picks. That’s phenomenal and bodes very well for their future. It’s also the very beginning. Let us not forget that the same Cavs who were going to be our overlords drafted Kyrie with the very first of their extra 1st round picks. They got the perennial all-star. As they’re showing, you still have a long way to go after that.

      This whole argument is kind of bogus. Sure, draft picks can go wrong. But it’s difficult to see many realistic ways of building a good team that don’t include signing and affordably extending homegrown talent.

      What whole argument? The section you quoted is a straight up fact. As i said, picks are great. They also don’t guarantee anything. Which part of that “argument” is bogus?

    29. The Ghost of Ted Nelson

      Also– for those out that aren’t properly lamenting the Shumpert to OKC non-trade from last week, Oklahoma owns the Mav’s 1st round pick this year, which is protected 1-20. If the season ended today, that pick would be #22, so Oklahoma would have the #22 and #27.

      In comparing the relative values of Shumpert and the #22 pick in the 2014 draft, it looks like this:

      Shumpert = #17 pick in 2011.
      Faried = #22 pick in 2011.
      Knicks openly want to trade (#17) Shumpert for (#22) Faried.
      #22 in 2014 is significantly greater value in a deep draft (2014) than a weak one (2011)

    30. The Ghost of Ted Nelson

      Cleveland two years ago with their bonanza of draft picks – hasn’t quite worked out that way so far and it’s not looking like it’s going to either.

      I wouldn’t say that Cleveland’s rebuild via the draft isn’t going to work out. They have one building block in place. Plus they have a multitude of diverse assets to develop and either keep or trade.

      And finally, in keeping with my trend on this thread, Cleveland also owns two picks this year, their own pick which is currently the #9 pick, and also Orlando’s 2nd rounder, which could be a very valuable pick as it is currently #3 but could still end up #1, which often nets a great international player.

    31. thenamestsam

      I wouldn’t say that Cleveland’s rebuild via the draft isn’t going to work out. They have one building block in place. Plus they have a multitude of diverse assets to develop and either keep or trade.

      One building block…who’s already making noise about being discontent and interested in being dealt. One building block…and they’ve used 3 other top 4 picks to acquire two guys who are never going to be more than rotation guys and the worst #1 pick ever (so far, I still have some hope for Bennett actually). They used a few picks (including those much beloved early 2nd rounders) to get another middling rotation guy in Tyler Zeller and used the 19 and 31 picks (early 2nd round alert) last year on Sergey Karasev and Allen Crabbe. I mean sure, they have some diverse assets (diverse presumably in the sense that some of them are good, some of them are bad, and most of them are really bad) but they’re a hell of a long way from ruling over the Eastern Conference, which again, is what was “supposed” to happen and what is now again being predicted for the Celts and Sixers. I have no doubt that 3 or 4 years from now both those teams will have a stockpile of diverse assets. Whether they will, in fact, be “kicking our asses”, I have significantly more doubt about.

    32. d-mar

      I tend to agree with thenamestam. Boston and Philly are doing what they have to do in terms of loading up on draft picks and clearing cap space, but as he says, that’s far from a guarantee of future success. Exhibit A has to be the Bobcats, who have acquired the likes of Brandan Wright, DJ Augustin, Gerald Henderson, Kemba Walker and Michael Kidd-Gilchrist in the lottery since 2007 (and I know if the only Charlotte games you watched were vs. the Knicks you’d think they were all All-Stars)

      And while they’ll probably make the playoffs this year, which I guess is progress, going from there to Eastern Conference powerhouse is a huge step.

    33. Frank

      RE: Melo and wanting to play in a big city – this could be (and probably is) as much about Lala as anything else. I’m pretty sure no matter how much I wanted to win, I’d have to check with my wife first. And if she said no (or looked unhappy), we wouldn’t go.

    34. Frank

      Re: the accumulation of draft picks etc – the best case study is Houston — Morey accumulated assets slowly but surely, whether low 1st round picks, guys on good contracts, 2nd round picks, etc and then traded a bunch of them in for Harden, then used his well-managed cap space to land Dwight. It doesn’t have to be all about hitting homers on draft picks. We basically did the same thing to land Melo, but overpaid for him unnecessarily, and that only compounded what has turned out to be a massive error in signing Amare to that contract.

    35. GoNyGoNYGo

      Trading away a pick and 4 players for Melo was NOT the problem.

      Trading away 2 picks and players for an oft-injured draft-bust like Bargnani is a problem. It’s the stupid trading away of picks that make me sick.

    36. GoNyGoNYGo

      @Frank – We were chanting MVP for Amare 2 years ago. His presence drew Melo to NY. When he plays, Stoudemire lights up the board. Amare was not a mistake. He was a turning point.

    37. johnno

      I’m probably in the minority but I think that most people greatly overestimate the value of 2nd round picks. I think that, as anything other than throw-ins to make trades look better, they aren’t worth much at all. Go back and look at the 210 players drafted in the second round over the last 7 years. You can count on one hand the number who have become starters for the team that drafted them. There are a number of guys who eventually became rotation players, but that was usually several years after they were drafted and usually after they bounced around Europe and the D-League and then signed with someone as a free agent — kind of like Jeremy Tyler and Toure Murray. And then there are solid rotation players who were never even drafted — kind of like Pablo Prigioni and Chris Copeland. Actually, the Knicks (and a lot of other teams) have gotten much more value out of guys that they signed for free than anyone whom they picked in the second round.

    38. hoolahoop

      It’s bad enough that the knicks are an underachieving team that sucks this year. Considering the hole they’ve dug going forward, that they can’t even play the game of rebuilding, is outright deflating. I guess at some point I’ll (and a large part of the fan base) will just tune out.

      I hope that a significant number of season ticket holders don’t re-up. A lot of corporations probably will buy in again, but as an individual, I think you’d have to be crazy to renew your season tickets. It just tells Dolan and Co. to stay the course. The only power fans have is to withhold their money. As a collective, we’re more powerful than Dolan. The knicks can’t play in an empty arena.
      BOYCOTT MSG!

    39. DRed

      Stockpiling draft picks isn’t worth a lot if you don’t know how to evaluate talent correctly, which seems to be the biggest problem teams like the Bobcats and Cleveland have. Then again, they both have better records than the Knicks do, so maybe they are on to something after all.

    40. flossy

      Amare was not a mistake. He was a turning point.

      I think as we sit amidst the smoldering wreckage of this season, it’s fair to ask “turning point to what?”

      If the Knicks don’t make the playoffs this year (seems likely) and Melo bails this summer (who knows), the Melo/Amar’e rebuild era could very well conclude in 2015 with a grand total of seven playoff wins over five years.

      At that point, Dolan will have paid (including luxury tax) around half a billion dollars, or more. I don’t even want to do the math.

    41. hoolahoop

      I agree that Amare was a turning point. People are quick to forget how hopeless things were before he came (just like it is now). He came in and immediately instilled a winning attitude, carrying the team on his back. The string of 30 point games, the MVP chants, and a roster of young, scrappy players who gave it their all every night. Melo wanted in on that.
      People keep calling Amare’s contract one of the worst, but this year, albeit limited minutes, he’s been great. His defense is weak, but his offense has been efficient. Plus, he has a great attitude. Stats, even the most advanced stats, fail to measure the importance of intangibles.

      So, maybe Amare isn’t the most cost effective contract right now, but he’s not the reason the knicks lose every night. You have a coach who has no idea what he’s doing, a DPOY that’s been weak on defense, a super-duper star that, maybe, is figuring out that scoring is not more important than winning, young players that are not being developed, a FO that gives away lottery picks and makes moronic trades, etc. etc. You won’t find “clusterfuck” in the dictionary, but you’ll find it right here.

    42. DRed

      Giving up a massive chunk of salary to a player who can’t stay healthy and plays no defense is a major reason why the Knicks lose so often.

    43. Frank

      Re: Amare – I love the guy but his signing has been an unmitigated disaster at this point. We are paying a max salary slot to a guy who is a shell of himself on offense (some of this is Woodson’s fault) and is even worse on defense. He brought essentially 6 months of excitement but other than that his signing has been a debacle. I applaud him for how hard he works, how humble he has been, and how he has not made waves for the most part, but he’s a terrible player at this juncture of his career. If he’s a turning point, it’s not in the way I think we would have liked.

    44. Owen

      “Draft picks are wonderful, and having lots of them doubly so, but they don’t guarantee much of anything.”

      I guess I should have clipped this instead of the Cleveland quote. I still strongly disagree with the implication of your post, which is that building through the draft isn’t the strongest way to rebuild and that it’s risky relative to other options.

      Building through free agency is, in my estimation, far more risky. You are far more likely to sign a player at a high valuation who is closer to decline and who you have an informational disadvantage with. (see Amare Stoudemire)

      Sure, draft picks usually bust. But what exactly is the alternative? Daryl Morey style wheeling and dealing? Sure. But that’s pretty hard to do and probably never could have happened without Yao going down. It came at a cost of three years of mediocrity.

    45. johnno

      Is anyone curious what the Knicks won-lost record is for the franchise’s entire history? Going into the season, the Knicks were the very definition of mediocrity — their all-time record was 2,615 wins and 2,614 losses. Their record by decade since 1970 —
      – 70s — 437 – 383
      – 80s — 380 – 440
      – 90s — 486 – 302
      – 00s — 327 – 473
      – 10s — 132 – 98
      By the way, how many of you were aware that the Knicks have been to the NBA Finals 8 times?

    46. DRed

      I think I like Shump more than a lot of this board, but it’s ridiculous that we would only trade him if it could help us win this year.

    47. thenamestsam

      I guess I should have clipped this instead of the Cleveland quote. I still strongly disagree with the implication of your post, which is that building through the draft isn’t the strongest way to rebuild and that it’s risky relative to other options.

      You are 100% putting things into my post based on your own biases. They are nowhere in the post. They are in your mind. “Draft picks are wonderful, and having lots of them doubly so, but they don’t guarantee much of anything” does not equal “building through the draft isn’t the strongest way to rebuild and that it’s risky relative to other options”. I’m not talking about the strongest way to build a team. Never have been. Only you are talking about that. I simply pointed out that handing out Atlantic Division supremacy throughout the 2020s based on 4 or 5 extra draft picks is a touch premature. Anything you’re extrapolating from that to general rules about team building is pure strawman arguing by you.

    48. SlowMotion

      @50

      Honestly I am not sure I would make that trade. Trading a 3-D guy for a late first can be likened to gambling lottery winnings in hopes of getting a bigger jackpot 2 years from now.

    49. thenamestsam

      Honestly I am not sure I would make that trade. Trading a 3-D guy for a late first can be likened to gambling lottery winnings in hopes of getting a bigger jackpot 2 years from now.

      Except that even if we hit the exact same size lottery again we’d come out massively ahead because we’d get the additional years on the rookie contract. The fact is that Shumpert is a decaying asset. Not only because he has gotten progressively worse since his rookie year, but because the inherent nature of almost all non-star level players is that they don’t have a ton of value once they hit free agency and start making market rate. Shumpert is a year away from either leaving as a Free Agent (very possible given we need to ditch his qualifying offer to open cap space for all the maneuvering we have planned), in which case we get nothing, or returning on a market-rate contract at which point he won’t have much value unless he gets better over the life of that contract. This year is a lost cause so that gives us one more year to squeeze some value out of Iman, versus a 1st round pick on a fresh rookie contract who could give us 4. That’s why you roll him over into a pick today.

    50. flossy

      I agree that Amare was a turning point. People are quick to forget how hopeless things were before he came (just like it is now).

      LOL. We went from hopeless to something else to hopeless in less than the time it took his contract to expire? Some turning point…

      People keep calling Amare’s contract one of the worst, but this year, albeit limited minutes, he’s been great. His defense is weak, but his offense has been efficient. Plus, he has a great attitude. Stats, even the most advanced stats, fail to measure the importance of intangibles.

      Yeah… no. I really, honestly do love Amar’e, but the truth is he has really sucked this year. The Knicks manage an abysmal -12.7 pts/100 possessions when he’s on the court. They manage to be 14 points per 100 possessions worse with him on the floor vs. on the bench, which means that he takes a shitty team and makes them even worse. If literally the only thing you do at an above average level is score, then a .541 TS is not cutting it. It would be one thing if he were killing it in 20 mpg, but he’s not. He’s killing the Knicks with his unfathomably bad defense and poor rebounding. Even Bargnani, whom I LOATHE, was not this bad.

    51. DRed

      I simply pointed out that handing out Atlantic Division supremacy throughout the 2020s based on 4 or 5 extra draft picks is a touch premature.

      Philly has millions more cap space and 7 more picks this year alone than we do. They could certainly fuck it all up, but I’d take that over this capped out shit show going into next year.

    52. thenamestsam

      Philly has millions more cap space and 7 more picks this year alone than we do. They could certainly fuck it all up, but I’d take that over this capped out shit show going into next year.

      Obviously. “Not saying I wouldn’t rather be in their shoes, but acting like it’s a foregone conclusion is putting the cart before the horse in my opinion.” Quote and emphasis both mine.

    53. DRed

      Yeah, sure, we don’t know where the Knicks or Philly are going to be in a few years. But for a team that is 15-41 they are in very good shape. Considering the Knicks have had 1 good season in the last decade, I know who I’d bet on being good 3 years from now.

    54. SlowMotion

      Shumpert is a year away from either leaving as a Free Agent (very possible given we need to ditch his qualifying offer to open cap space for all the maneuvering we have planned), in which case we get nothing, or returning on a market-rate contract at which point he won’t have much value unless he gets better over the life of that contract.

      Fair point. If anything the Knicks FO can revisit this in the offseason after OKC lose in underwhelming fashion against one of the West elites. Possibly get more than one pick, thus making it the greatest trade by a Knick GM in the last decade or possibly more.

      Yeah… no. I really, honestly do love Amar’e, but the truth is he has really sucked this year. The Knicks manage an abysmal -12.7 pts/100 possessions when he’s on the court. They manage to be 14 points per 100 possessions worse with him on the floor vs. on the bench, which means that he takes a shitty team and makes them even worse.

      And the fact that most of Amar’e's minutes take away from JT’s minutes compounds the issue. Haven’t seen the updated stats but Tyler had a significant impact on both sides of the floor when he plays.

    55. DRed

      Woodson still isn't sure about Bargnani's status for the rest of year. NYK could very well opt to sign a 4/5 type to fill in for him & KMart— Chris Herring (@HerringWSJ) February 24, 2014

      Or, I dunno, maybe play the competent backup big men you have rotting on the bench?

    56. Donnie Walsh

      @50

      The OKC pick should have been a no-brainier for this Knicks team. And if they were offered that Dallas pick, that is even more of an obvious trade. That pick is top 20 protected for the next few yearnandnthen completely unprotected. Any of those picks will help the Knicks a lotmmorenthan Iman Shumpert would. (oh wait, I forgot, we’re a win now team!)

      Philly has millions more cap space and 7 more picks this year alone than we do.

      So you’re saying you don’t think Sacramento’s 2nd round pick will be in the 56-60 range this year??

    57. Donnie Walsh

      Obviously. “Not saying I wouldn’t rather be in their shoes, but acting like it’s a foregone conclusion is putting the cart before the horse in my opinion.”

      If it’s not a foregone conclusion that everything Jim Dolan touches turns to suck, what exactly is a foregone conclusion?

    58. max fisher-cohen

      There is no guaranteed way to build a title winner. If there was, then everyone would follow it, and we’d all just split the Larry O’Brien trophy 30 ways. Fun.

      There are ways, however, to eliminate yourself from the conversation: stack your team with largely diminishing assets who as a whole don’t have enough talent to compete against elite teams. Hello New York!

      The Cavs were the youngest team in the NBA at the beginning of the season. Adding Deng may have dropped them to 2nd youngest. They have a chance to make a great team, but it’s not going to happen for another couple years, and they still will have to make a number of smart decisions and will have to have some luck.

    59. SlowMotion

      So you’re saying you don’t think Sacramento’s 2nd round pick will be in the 56-60 range this year??

      I saw this the other day and wondered who made that trade. Can’t recollect when the Kings were involved in a trade with us, although it couldn’t been from another team acquiring their pick iirc.

      Anyways, why would any franchise even bother taking a top 55 protected pick. Its like asking for the tip of the bread on a hotdog or the butt of the bun…I like how that sounds.

    60. thenamestsam

      If it’s not a foregone conclusion that everything Jim Dolan touches turns to suck, what exactly is a foregone conclusion?

      Fair point. I was more saying that their greatness isn’t a foregone conclusion than our suckiness, which pretty much is.

    61. Brian Cronin

      contents of that link confirmed by Zach Lowe who I trust way more than Broussard.
      I think we should’ve made both trades.

      Is Broussard the one saying that the Clippers made the Knicks think that they were going to a deal just to make sure the Knicks turned the Thunder down and then the Clippers pulled their del at the last minute?

    62. mokers

      Not surprising to see Woodons say they are going to pick up scrap heap vets. If the Knicks really balked on a Shumpert deal because they weren’t getting back anything that could help them this year, it shows how out of touch management is.

      Is Woody:

      a) The dumbest NBA coach alive
      b) the greatest Knicks troll ever

      Discuss.

      Maybe the plan is to grind Melo until he needs to have offseason surgery, forcing him to opt-in and giving the Knicks an excuse to tank?

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