Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Wednesday, September 17, 2014

Knicks Morning News (2014.02.20)

  • [New York Times] Rockets Beat Lakers 134-108 for 8th Straight Win (Thu, 20 Feb 2014 06:15:45 GMT)
    Dwight Howard thoroughly enjoyed his first road game against the team he left as a free agent after one tumultuous and contentious season, getting 20 points and 13 rebounds in the Houston Rockets’ 134-108 rout of the Los Angeles Lakers on Wednesday night that extended their winning streak to eight.    

  • [New York Times] Mills Has 29 and Spurs Edge Blazers 111-109 (Thu, 20 Feb 2014 06:09:56 GMT)
    Patty Mills came off the bench to score 29 points, Marco Belinelli hit a go-ahead 3-pointer with 1:34 remaining and the San Antonio Spurs defeated the Portland Trail Blazers 111-109 Wednesday night in a battle of short-handed teams.    

  • [New York Times] Warriors Hold Off Kings 101-92 in Sacramento (Thu, 20 Feb 2014 05:42:58 GMT)
    David Lee had 23 points and 11 rebounds, Klay Thompson scored 18 points and the Golden State Warriors held off the Sacramento Kings 101-92 on Wednesday night in a game both teams played short-handed.    

  • [New York Times] Anthony Scores 42, Leads Knicks Past Pelicans (Thu, 20 Feb 2014 05:12:54 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony made up his mind. He was taking the big shots in crunch time, and there wasn’t anything 6-foot-10 All-Star Anthony Davis or anyone else on the Pelicans could do about it.    

  • [New York Times] Johnson, Blatche Lead Nets Over Jazz 105-99 (Thu, 20 Feb 2014 05:06:57 GMT)
    Joe Johnson scored 27 points, Andray Blatche had 25 and Brooklyn beat the Utah Jazz 105-99 Wednesday night for the Nets’ first win in Utah since 2008.    

  • [New York Times] Johnson, Blatche Lead Nets Over Jazz 105-99 (Thu, 20 Feb 2014 05:06:56 GMT)
    Joe Johnson scored 27 points, Andray Blatche had 25 and Brooklyn beat the Utah Jazz 105-99 Wednesday night for the Nets’ first win in Utah since 2008.    

  • [New York Times] Knicks 98, Pelicans 91: Shumpert Hurts Knee Amid Talk of a Trade (Thu, 20 Feb 2014 05:03:56 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony scored 13 of the Knicks’ final 15 points in a victory that was overshadowed by an injury to Iman Shumpert, whom the team viewed as a marketable trade asset.    

  • [New York Times] Love Has 42 Points, 16 Boards, Wolves Beat Pacers (Thu, 20 Feb 2014 05:01:11 GMT)
    Kevin Love is used to carrying the beat-up Minnesota Timberwolves lately. This time, he finally had some help when he sat down to take a rest.    

  • [New York Times] Balanced Suns Hold Off Celtics, 100-94 (Thu, 20 Feb 2014 04:58:06 GMT)
    The Phoenix Suns were worn out from an overtime victory in Denver the previous night. The Boston Celtics hadn’t played since the All-Star break.    

  • [New York Times] Lakers Trade Steve Blake to Warriors for 2 Guards (Thu, 20 Feb 2014 04:48:56 GMT)
    The Golden State Warriors have made another move in hopes of finding a reliable backup to point guard Stephen Curry.    

  • [New York Times] Sports Briefing: Cavaliers Win 6th Straight (Thu, 20 Feb 2014 04:40:28 GMT)
    Kyrie Irving, who was chosen most valuable player of the N.B.A. All-Star Game, scored 22 points to lead Cleveland past the visiting Orlando Magic.    

  • [New York Times] Irving Leads Cavs Past Magic for 6th Straight Win (Thu, 20 Feb 2014 03:07:15 GMT)
    Kyrie Irving scored 22 points and the Cleveland Cavaliers won their sixth straight game, 101-93 over the Orlando Magic on Wednesday night.    

  • [New York Times] Wall Leads Wizards Past Slumping Hawks, 114-97 (Thu, 20 Feb 2014 02:58:32 GMT)
    John Wall scored 21 points and the Washington Wizards recovered after almost blowing a 20-point lead to beat the reeling Atlanta Hawks 114-97 on Wednesday night.    

  • [New York Times] Boozer Scores 20 and Bulls Beat Raptors 94-92 (Thu, 20 Feb 2014 02:58:32 GMT)
    Carlos Boozer scored 20 points, D.J. Augustin had 19 against his former team and the Chicago Bulls won their fourth straight game Wednesday night, edging the Toronto Raptors 94-92.    

  • [New York Times] Nets 105, Jazz 99: Nets Add a Guard and Pick Up a Victory (Thu, 20 Feb 2014 02:55:51 GMT)
    The Nets sent Jason Terry and Reggie Evans to Sacramento for Marcus Thornton and then overcame a slow start to beat the Utah Jazz.    

  • [New York Times] Jefferson Leads Bobcats Over Pistons Again 116-98 (Thu, 20 Feb 2014 02:43:31 GMT)
    Al Jefferson scored 29 points, Kemba Walker had 24 points and a career-high 16 assists, and the Charlotte Bobcats beat the Detroit Pistons for the second straight night, 116-98 on Wednesday.    

  • [New York Post] Smooth sailing for Carmelo Anthony (Thu, 20 Feb 2014 04:42:51 -0500)
    NEW ORLEANS — If he is lucky, at the end of his career, Carmelo Anthony will little note nor long remember this night, this game, this collision of bad basketball…

  • [New York Post] Knicks’ Stoudemire not expecting a trade (Thu, 20 Feb 2014 04:35:26 -0500)
    NEW ORLEANS — If the Knicks make a move by Thursday's 3 p.m. trade deadline, it likely will be dealing out-of-the-rotation point guard Beno Udrih. Iman Shumpert was a top…

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Opening Tip: Deal or no deal? (Thu, 20 Feb 2014 06:00:05 EDT)
    Tick, tick, tick … The Knicks have a few hours to decide on executing a trade to improve their backcourt. Here are their options, as of late Wednesday night: Darren Collison: The Knicks hope to engage the Clippers on Thursday in talks centered around a deal of Iman Shumpert and Raymond Felton for Collison and Matt Barnes. Talks were tabled late Wednesday night, according to ESPN’s Marc Stein and Chris Broussard. It is unclear how Shumpert’s knee injury will impact the potential deal, though the Clippers are lukewarm about taking back Felton, who has struggled this season and has two years remaining on his contract.

  • [New York Daily News] Melo scores 42, Knicks snap 3-game skid as trade rumors swirl (Thu, 20 Feb 2014 08:01:35 GMT)
    Mike Woodson sounded almost as if he was making a concession speech before his Knicks took the court Wednesday night against the New Orleans Pelicans.    

  • [New York Daily News] Lawrence: From Big Easy, trade deadline for Knicks looks like Mardi Blah (Thu, 20 Feb 2014 06:34:07 GMT)
    The Knicks found themselves on Wednesday flying into the Big Easy, where they could see reviewing stands for the upcoming Mardi Gras parades being assembled as they bussed to their downtown hotel.    

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks talk Shump trade with Clippers, who don’t want Felton (Thu, 20 Feb 2014 00:52:41 GMT)
    The Knicks’ desire to get rid of Raymond Felton in a deal with the Los Angeles Clippers has hit at least one major obstacle. According to a source with knowledge of the Clippers’ thinking, they want Iman Shumpert, but they’re not interested at all in acquiring Felton.    

  • [New York Newsday] Carmelo Anthony scores 42 points as Knicks defeat Pelicans (Thu, 20 Feb 2014 00:25:04 EST)
    Closing games has been a major issue for the Knicks this season, but Carmelo Anthony made sure it wasn't Wednesday night.

  • [New York Newsday] Knicks might put Raymond Felton, Iman Shumpert in package deal (Thu, 20 Feb 2014 00:21:00 EST)
    Iman Shumpert could have been playing his last game as Knick Wednesday night as trade talks involving him seemed to be picking up steam.

  • 161 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2014.02.20)

    1. Zanzibar

      Raptors receive Clips 2017 pick/Knicks 2018 pick/Felton/MWP
      Knicks receive Lowry/Barnes/Green
      Clips receive JR/KMart/Prigs

      Barnes’ contract allows us to dump him at no cost in summer of 2015. Kmart and Prigs could be very useful to Clips in their playoff push. Note we could also swap players between Toronto and Clips depending upon Clips’ preference. Here is trade not including trade exception part and draft picks: http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=l7uza5h

    2. TDM

      Regarding Beno, has anyone seen what Washington is offering? If so, is it better than Jordan Hamilton? Would they offer GRJr?

    3. johnno

      “Knicks 2018 pick”
      Unless they are getting a star (who is signed to a reasonable non-expiring contract) in return, why in the world should the Knicks even consider trading a first round draft pick to get a little better this year? The beauty of them stinking is that the fan base has resigned themselves to the fact that, even if the Knicks were to sneak into the playoffs, they will get trounced in the first round, so there is no pressure to make any kind of deal at all. The only deals that they should consider are deals in which they are clearly the winner of the deal, or deals like giving up Beno, KMart, or MWP for young players or draft picks (even 2nd rounders). Giving up any assets for Lowry so that they can watch his contract expire in three months would be downright stupid.

    4. njasdjdh

      I’m curious, do people here still think the Knicks are making the playoffs? Looking at the schedule+standings, I would estimate we need to win 16 games to get there and I don’t see how that’s going to happen.

    5. Zanzibar

      So, the Raptors would consider taking Felton and MWP for Lowry? Seriously?

      The Raptors have always been willling to take Felton/MWP so long as in the deal they got 2 out of these 3: THJ/Shump/draft pick. So in my scenario they get 2 draft picks. Frank is ready to induct Raptors GM into the Hall of Fame if he could get 2 draft picks for Lowry. The trade machine doesn’t allow you to include draft picks.

      Giving up any assets for Lowry so that they can watch his contract expire in three months would be downright stupid.

      There obviously would have to be a verbal commitment from Lowry to re-sign for a specified amount/duration this summer before we make that deal.

    6. Nick C.

      Unless the Clippers are hard up to get rid of Barnes and their 2017 pick why would they do this? JR is a slightly different version of Jamal. KMart is a 20g a year player. Prigs is nice but they have Collison and Paul will be playing 30-35 mpg.

    7. Zanzibar

      Unless the Clippers are hard up to get rid of Barnes and their 2017 pick why would they do this? JR is a slightly different version of Jamal. KMart is a 20g a year player. Prigs is nice but they have Collison and Paul will be playing 30-35 mpg.

      Barnes is terrible this season. JR has been playing much better of late so would an improvement over Barnes. Also Dudley has been terrible this season. Collison may not re-sign next season so they will need a back-up. Clips are in win now mode: JR + Prigs + KMart >>> Barnes/2017 pick in that context. Who else would take Barnes contract and give them the equivalent of JR/Prigs/KMart in any deal?

    8. Hubert

      I have lost my faith that Shumpert will ever be a strong contributor in New York. He needs a fresh start – and I do not think a new coach is enough. There seems to be a beef between Shumpert and Dolan.

      There’s so much negativity around Shumpert for his (admittedly terrible) play this year. I refuse to join in. I refuse to judge a player based on how he performed for a coach who a) hates young players, b) obviously doesn’t attempt to coach anything into him, and c) has made him his scapegoat so he can keep his job.

      I’ve seen glimpses of an excellent basketball player who needs a real coach and a system. And a real coach can nix whatever beef with Dolan there might be in about 5 minutes. Our focus should be on finding that coach and system and evaluating our players after we see how they perform in it.

      I think selling low on Shump is foolish.

    9. johnno

      “a coach who hates young players”
      I still don’t understand where this comes from. Woodson has started Shumpert in every game that he’s been healthy enough to play in ever since he became coach — even though a real good argument can be made that Shumpert should have been benched long ago. He’s also giving significant minutes to the youngest guy on the team and is also giving meaningful minutes to Jeremy Tyler.

    10. Frank

      I’m not sold that we are making the playoffs — we’re still not that good and suddenly Cleveland and Charlotte are both playing a lot better. The one playoff team that might fall out would be atlanta, who is free-falling with 7 straight losses. But we have to hop over 2 other teams in order to get in – not easy with our remaining schedule (although we can’t win at home anyway, so maybe that doesn’t matter).

      I’d give us a 50/50 shot at best.

      Now that Shump is hurt I think I’d rather not make any major moves at all. Trade partners will use the Shump injury/uncertainty as a reason to ask for more in trades (or to give back less). I want no part of a deal with the Clips unless we are unloading Felton and getting back someone who is either in his prime/is a good player (like Dudley who would basically be a net wash with Felton in terms of 2015-16 cap space) or a young guy on rookie contract with potential (Bullock). Do not give me Matt Barnes, whose prime was like 4 seasons ago, and is nut job to boot.

      Re: Beno Udrih for Jordan Hamilton – why hasn’t this happened already?

      And last thing – is anyone else semi-impressed so far with Steve Mills’ restraint? I especially like him leaking to Marc Stein that in order to get Shump we need to get a 1st rounder or lose Felton — draw a line in the sand and stick to it. I like it (if he actually sticks to it).

    11. TDM

      Results from Shumps MRI probably won’t get released until after the deadline, so my guess is he’s not going anywhere. IMO, there is no reason to trade guys like Shump or Felton when their stock is down, especially when the guys we’d get back aren’t going to make us a contender, and we’d have to give up more picks or young talent or take back a contract / player we dont want. Get them healthy, wait till they start performing better, or they have less time remaining on their contract. If we can pull a Beno deal for a 2nd rounder or GRJr, great. Otherwise, wait.

    12. Hubert

      All I’m saying is I love where Shumpert was heading after the playoffs last year and I’m not convinced he can’t get back on that track.

      I understand he’s been derailed this year but I don’t think it’s to the point where there is no recovery. Just get the assclown with the circle beard out of here as soon as possible before he ruins the next promising young guard on the team.

    13. Hubert

      I’m curious, do people here still think the Knicks are making the playoffs?

      I’m 60/40 that we miss. The 40 is entirely based on my belief that Melo will play amazing basketball come the spring. The 60 is entirely based on Woodson.

    14. Hubert

      “a coach who hates young players”
      I still don’t understand where this comes from. Woodson has started Shumpert in every game that he’s been healthy enough to play in ever since he became coach — even though a real good argument can be made that Shumpert should have been benched long ago. He’s also giving significant minutes to the youngest guy on the team and is also giving meaningful minutes to Jeremy Tyler.

      Let’s see how much he plays Jeremy Tyler when Andrea Bargnani comes back and it’s obvious to everyone who the better Center is. He always goes with his veterans regardless of who is playing better.

      And while he plays young guys, he also throws them under the bus and humiliates them.

      TH2 has been a notable exception. Personally I think he’s scared to treat him the same way because of TH Sr, or maybe he respects TH Sr enough not to do it. Pure conjecture, of course.

    15. DS

      I think the upgrade from Felton to Collison has been underrated by the media. i.e. Zach Lowe (who I like): “The Knicks need to understand that as bad as Felton as been, Collison is not an upgrade worth giving up literally any asset.”

      I think a quick player comparison says otherwise:
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=feltora01&y1=2014&p2=collida01&y2=2014

      Whether this upgrade justifies giving up Shump specifically is a slightly different argument.

    16. er

      I think you guys who think woody hates young guys are reaching. He throws Beno and Felton under the bus all the time. I think he likes bargnani because he stupidly believes hes a good shooter. He has made some miss steps with shump but has been more than fair

    17. njasdjdh

      If CHA goes 10-17 over its last 27 games, we would have to go 15-13 just to catch them. That’s a high bar for this team.

      Re: Collison

      IIRC, the problem is that he excels as an off guard and a shooter. When you put the ball in his hands and ask him to run an offense it can get problematic so he’s going to look better by the stats than he will in terms of game performance. Felton has been putrid this year, but when he’s right, even though his stats are still mediocre, he’s great for us because of what he can do out of the PnR. Collison is a guy who runs in straight lines all over the court and can’t operate out of PnR. In fact, I think the primary reason DAL got fed up with him last year was because of his inability to do what they wanted/needed out of PnRs.

    18. Zanzibar

      @Hubert I agree about Shump – imo he will become a solid 4-5m 3andD player presuming a better coach and defensive system. That said, he’s had all kinds of knee problems dating back to college and for that reason I would have been willing to trade him and 1st round pick for Lowry. Lowry/Melo/Chandler/JR/THJ should make us very competitive in 2014 (TC will be better in contract year and new coach) and I’d rather go into summer of 2015 not needing to fill too many positions because that would be a recipe for disaster. Lowry is better value and maybe better player than Rondo. Aldridge and Melo play the same position. Dragic has family/relatives in Phoenix, likes the area, and will re-sign. Focus on M.Gasol and maybe Hibbert if we’re lucky.

    19. Hubert

      Whether this upgrade justifies giving up Shump specifically is a slightly different argument.

      But that’s the argument Lowe made. You quoted him yourself: “The Knicks need to understand that as bad as Felton as been, Collison is not an upgrade worth giving up literally any asset.

    20. njasdjdh

      Cleveland just gave up 2 second round picks for Spencer Hawes. Yeah, definitely don’t think we’re making the playoffs. Hilarious that we gave up more for Bargnani than they did for Hawes as well.

    21. Hubert

      I think you guys who think woody hates young guys are reaching. He throws Beno and Felton under the bus all the time. I think he likes bargnani because he stupidly believes hes a good shooter. He has made some miss steps with shump but has been more than fair

      Beno, yes. Felton? No way. Felton has gotten a pass all year until very recently.

      Don’t forget Lin in the whole young guys thing, too. Boy, was he excited to work with a young PG who had potential.

    22. er

      @19 we dont even have to catch clt. The hawks are in free fall. They play the knicks and the bulls at home then go on a 6 game western swing……yea they dont look too promising. And Detroit is awful

    23. njasdjdh

      The hawks are in free fall. They play the knicks and the bulls at home then go on a 6 game western swing……yea they dont look too promising. And Detroit is awful

      If DET is awful…what does that make the Knicks? And the Hawks might be in a freefall right now, but even they would have to go 10-19 over the rest of the season along with the Knicks going 15-13.

    24. er

      Hey man its not a big deal just letting you know the hawks and detroit are playing awful. The Knicks are better than Detroit even now with half the team hurt. Charlottes next 9 games are NO, Mem, SAS, OKC, Miami,Indiana , Cleveland, Memphis and Denver.

      It is what it is. They will make the playoffs whether you like it or not

    25. thenamestsam

      Last night’s victory catapulted us above Detroit and Cleveland in the Hollinger Playoff Odds. All the way up to 29% baby. I’d say that sells us a little short because with Bargs hurt, JR coming on a bit and the possibility of a typical Melo spring surge and the possibility of improving the worst PG situation in the league I think we’re a bit stronger going forward than our fundamental data might suggest. I think it’s pretty close to 50-50 and like Hubert my 50% against is largely Woodson based.

      Whether making the playoffs is a good thing or not is an entirely different question. Sneaking in to the 8th seed just to receive a beatdown from Indy (or Miami – still just 2 games back at the top despite everyone seemingly handing Indy that top seed months ago) and having that playoff appearance be seen as enough to save Woodson’s job is definitely my personal worst case scenario for the rest of the year. If we can’t get to the 6th seed (only 5 games back but have to pass 5 teams) and get a winnable first round matchup I’d rather crash and burn as long as I get to see Woody’s head on a spit at the end of it.

    26. Frank

      btw lost in all the trade talk, coach talk etc. is how well JR is playing, at least on the offensive end. His splits by month:

      November – FG 32.8%, 3P 28.6%, TS 41.6%, FT-rate 16.8%
      December – FG 36.8%, 3P 39.8%, TS 48.2%, FTR 9.7%
      January – FG 43.1%, 3P 39.1%, TS 52%, FTR 20%
      February – FG 45.9%, 3P 44.7%, TS 58.3%, FTR 27%
      Usage has been pretty stable in the 20-23 range.

      If JR can keep this up then it might end up being a net + that Shump went down as it’s likely we’ll see (even) more JR and definitely more THJ.

    27. Hubert

      I would rather we miss the playoffs and our pick wins the lottery than make the playoffs and get swept by Indiana.

      At least then maybe we’ll start protecting our future picks as a matter of policy.

    28. DS

      njasdjdh:

      Good point about catching Charlotte but (nerd alert!) I think you’re off by one game. Assuming the Knicks had the better record, the rest of the way, they’d prob. end up better conference record. So they need a 14-14 if the ‘Cats go 10-17. Granted, the Knicks still have to beat out Cleveland and Detroit.

      Your scouting on Collison may be totally correct, but FWIW, Collison has played well in some 5 man units this year w/o CP3: http://www.82games.com/1314/1314LAC2.HTM but Crawford and Redick prob. helped.

    29. Frank

      Sneaking in to the 8th seed just to receive a beatdown from Indy (or Miami – still just 2 games back at the top despite everyone seemingly handing Indy that top seed months ago) and having that playoff appearance be seen as enough to save Woodson’s job is definitely my personal worst case scenario for the rest of the year.

      Barring some crazy long playoff run, I’d literally be more surprised if Woodson’s our coach next year than I was when we let Jeremy Lin walk out the door.

    30. thenamestsam

      Barring some crazy long playoff run, I’d literally be more surprised if Woodson’s our coach next year than I was when we let Jeremy Lin walk out the door.

      Wow, really? I’m very surprised to hear that. My default assumption is definitely that he will be the coach – if his job was at all vulnerable I can’t see how he wouldn’t be canned already. I also think the whole “CAA, family, protect our own, etc. etc.” bullshit (and the extra $20M we can offer) is about the only thing we have to sell Melo on this summer, and Woodson is a big part of what we do in terms of that. We’re not just going to sit here and kick him to the curb. What do other people think – will Woody be back in the scenario where we sneak into the playoffs and take an Indy beatdown?

    31. ephus

      For the Spencer Hawes dead to work under the salary cap, the Cavaliers have to be sending out at least $4.33 million. Earl Clark makes $4.25 million, so there has to be something more.

    32. ephus

      Before the season, I wrote that if the Knicks had a first round elimination, Melo would stay and Woodson would go. I see no reason to change that view.

    33. max fisher-cohen

      Hollinger puts the Knicks’ playoff odds at 28.7%, predicting 34 wins with the 8th seed Bobcats winning 39 games.

      The only team the Knicks have a chance to pass that has a significantly tougher schedule is the Pistons.

      If you want to talk about recent trends, here are the records over the last ten games for the E.C. “pretenders”:

      NY: 4-6
      Detroit: 5-5
      Cleveland: 6-4
      Charlotte: 6-4

      Here are the home/away splits for remaining games:

      NY: 42.8% home games
      Detroit: 46.4% home games
      Cleveland: 51.8% home games
      Charlotte: 51.8% home games

      The only reason I can think of for thinking NY will likely make the playoffs is that you still don’t really believe this is the Knicks, that you think the team from last season is still inside and will somehow emerge over these final games. You’re entitled to believe that, but I don’t.

      My guess for how the EC standings will end up is the top four will remain the same, and then the next seven will be Brooklyn (5th seed), Washington (6th seed), Cleveland (7th seed), Charlotte (8th seed), Atlanta (9th place), New York (10th place) and then Detroit.

      The only way NY becomes a favorite to make the playoffs is if they make a pretty big upgrade in the next four hours or whatever.

    34. Frank

      Wow, really? I’m very surprised to hear that. My default assumption is definitely that he will be the coach – if his job was at all vulnerable I can’t see how he wouldn’t be canned already. I also think the whole “CAA, family, protect our own, etc. etc.” bullshit (and the extra $20M we can offer) is about the only thing we have to sell Melo on this summer, and Woodson is a big part of what we do in terms of that. We’re not just going to sit here and kick him to the curb. What do other people think – will Woody be back in the scenario where we sneak into the playoffs and take an Indy beatdown?

      I think the fact that Woodson’s still around has more to do with lack of viable options midseason than it has to do with CAA, Knicks “family”, etc. I think Melo will want a real vision going forward to re-sign and to re-sign for a discount to boot. Given our cap limitations and no draft pick, the only way you can do that is to hire a bona fide coach with championship-level experience. Not that many guys out there like that — it’ll be the Van Gundys and Phil on the phone with Mills and Dolan the second this season ends. I don’t even think Calipari would qualify given how badly he did in the NBA the first time around.

      I’ve said it before – if Dolan and Mills really want to turn this thing around, you give JVG a Doc Rivers-type deal and an equal vote at a 3 person table re: basketball decisions (Dolan, Mills, JVG). You let him talk however he wants to talk to the media. he’s the highest level coach out there that knows what he would he would be getting himself into and even knowing the shitstorm that is MSG, has already said on national radio that his greatest regret is leaving the Knicks. The return of Jeff Van Gundy would bring instant credibility around the league and also to Knicks fans.

    35. Frank

      In terms of landing the right coach – this team sucks this year but I think Melo has really shown something this year in terms of how hard he plays on both sides of the ball even in the face of how horribly this season has gone. JVG always talks about how the superstars set the tone for the rest of the team, and has gone on the record a bunch of times about how crappy Dwight Howard was last year in terms of attitude etc. I think a grown-up Melo, some reasonable defensive pieces in Tyson/Shump, a John Starks-type player in THJr, an athletic young big in Jeremy Tyler, and some careful offseason signings might be enough of a roster for JVG to bite on a solid $/years offer from Dolan.

    36. Frank

      Interesting stuff from the new Hoopsworld (Basketball Insiders) saying that Andre Miller might get cut if Denver can’t find a deal for him. I can’t imagine any team that has cap space (ie. tanking) would want someone like Miller. So if he clears waivers and would sign for the vet’s minimum, that would obviously be the best possible scenario for us.

    37. stratomatic

      I think 100% of the Knicks focus should be on clearing the decks for a 2015 rebuild. That means getting rid of Felton and JR Smith. Hell, I’ve though that for the last couple of years when it was already obvious the team they built was nothing more than a capped out playoff team with no upside that would go out in the 1st or 2nd round. I “think” management may finally understand that and be willing to throw in the towel in the rest of this year and next. I hope I am right. It took too long, but if they have come around that’s good news for long term thinkers. That doesn’t mean you don’t try to get good long term assets back in any deal. But I think they screwed up so badly in the last rebuild they may have to sweeten deals just to unload Felton and JR Smith eventually.

    38. max fisher-cohen

      Vecsey is tweeting that Love has told the Wolves he’s going to leave and that he may be traded by deadline or else this summer. He also says he won’t go to NY because it doesn’t have a winning culture (Dolan) and because he doesn’t want to play with Melo. You can see all the tweets here.

    39. max fisher-cohen

      JR’s been playing well. I think at this point the Knicks could get maybe a 2nd rounder and contracts that expire this year or next from a team like the Clippers, Bobcats, Blazers — some team looking to get better now.

    40. Frank

      I think 100% of the Knicks focus should be on clearing the decks for a 2015 rebuild. That means getting rid of Felton and JR Smith.

      Assuming that Vecsey is right and Love doesn’t want to come here, who exactly are we targeting in 2015? Aldridge? Is he really worth a max contract? Rondo?

      Someone said it on an earlier thread, but if the goal is to dump 2015 salary (and not to eke out a playoff berth this year), then there is no hurry to make trades right now. The distaste other teams have for Felton is proportional to the amount of years and dollars left – and what they will ask for in return is much more now than it might be next year, especially if Felton starts playing better (he can’t play worse). And if absolutely necessary, we could always waive Felton under the stretch provision and it’d only be a 1.3MM cap hit each year for 3 years (2015-16 to 2017-18).

      Re: JR – I feel much better about JR now than I did a few months ago. It’s pretty clear to me now that shoelace-stuff aside, he was playing awfully because he wasn’t fully recovered. If he continues to play somewhere in the vicinity of his career averages, he won’t be THAT difficult to move, and will be much easier to move next year than this year.

      I’m starting to think that our best option at this point is to do nothing other than trade spare parts like MWP or Beno. Hold our assets, wait for the right trade next year with Felton or JR or whoever. Right now is not the time. Get a real coach this offseason and try to rehabilitate Felton/Shump/Tyson, etc. either increasing their trade values or making a push next season.

    41. hoolahoop

      In terms of landing the right coach – this team sucks this year but I think Melo has really shown something this year in terms of how hard he plays on both sides of the ball even in the face of how horribly this season has gone. JVG always talks about how the superstars set the tone for the rest of the team, and has gone on the record a bunch of times about how crappy Dwight Howard was last year in terms of attitude etc. I think a grown-up Melo, some reasonable defensive pieces in Tyson/Shump, a John Starks-type player in THJr, an athletic young big in Jeremy Tyler, and some careful offseason signings might be enough of a roster for JVG to bite on a solid $/years offer from Dolan.

      Agreed. The shame is that this season could have been salvageable if they replaced Woodson when it was clear he had no clue of what he was doing. Worse, it’s impossible to figure out where the knicks stand as a team, talent wise, with Woodson coaching. Everyone, but Melo, is playing less than they’re capable. This organization doesn’t develop talent. It destoys it. Trading away underperforming players, getting pennies on the dollar, will sink this organization deeper into the abyss. Making the playoffs this year is meaningless. Worse yet, it validates Woodson.

      Regarding JVG, be careful what you wish for. For starters, it’s going to be boring basketball. The offense is going to consist of a lot of dumping the ball to Melo, stand around and watch. Granted, the defense will be better and the knicks will win more games. Personally, I don’t see him as the savior.

    42. Frank

      One more thing re: JR — if he keeps playing like this, I don’t see any need to move him at all. At 6.4MM in 2015-16, he might be overpaid but not by much. And again, I’m not sure there are any franchise-changers in 15-16 other than Kevin Love, and I’ve got concerns even about him — his numbers are like a video game but how often do you have a guy who’s SO good but can’t even get his team into the playoffs ONE SINGLE TIME in six seasons? I know the West is tough, but not even a single 8 seed? Really? Is the talent around him so much worse than what OKC puts around Durant when Westbrook is out? Reggie Jackson? Jeremy Lamb? Kendrick Perkins? Ibaka is great, and Collison is underrated, but that’s not a juggernaut of talent if you take Westbrook and Durant out of the equation.

      Meanwhile Melo has never missed the playoffs ever. Obviously there are teammates, coaches, etc., but not once?

    43. ephus

      max fisher-cohen
      February 20, 2014 at 11:05 am
      JR’s been playing well. I think at this point the Knicks could get maybe a 2nd rounder and contracts that expire this year or next from a team like the Clippers, Bobcats, Blazers — some team looking to get better now.

      I do not think JR Smith is currently seen as an asset in NBA Front Offices:

      1. JR drew little interest last summer when he had just concluded his 6th Man of the Year season;
      2. JR’s notoriety has only increased this year (drug suspension, shoe laces, etc.);
      3. JR’s health is worse – knee surgery;
      4. JR’s contract could last until 2015-16.

      Bill Simmons’ 30 worst contracts column recently ranked JR Smith as #8 worst contract (behind only Eric Gordon, Kobe, Joe Johnson, Deron Williams, Bargnani, Gerald Wallace and Amar’e). Even if you think Simmons is all hat and no cattle on his NBA opinions, he reflects the CW in the NBA.

    44. DS

      http://www.82games.com/1314/1314NYK2.HTM

      Here’s a reason to be optimistic.

      Every lineup that is being outscored by its opponents contains STAT, Bargs, or Udrih. The Knicks are 9-4 without STAT, 6-6 without Bargs. Losses in this stretch w/o Bargs include the blip in Milwaukee; the OT loss against the Kings; and losses to OKC, Miami and Portland.

      What’s the biggest difference in the lineup b/w this year and last? BARGS!

      If we keep up the current non-Bargs(TM) pace, we may be in good shape!

    45. Frank

      Regarding JVG, be careful what you wish for. For starters, it’s going to be boring basketball. The offense is going to consist of a lot of dumping the ball to Melo, stand around and watch. Granted, the defense will be better and the knicks will win more games. Personally, I don’t see him as the savior.

      I’m not so sure about that. The game was completely different when JVG was coaching (ie. pre-D’Antoni and the spread/small offense), and based on his attendance/involvement at Sloan and what he says on-air, I’d be surprised if he went back to his old offensive philosophy.

    46. Garson

      I think one specific concept our upper management does not grasp is the basic theory of SELL HIGH.

      They are trying to sell Shump at his low
      They are trying to sell Felton at his low although he never really had a high
      They tried to sell JR at his low a month ago

      What they should have done is, if they wanted to move Shump, offer him after those specatacular West coast games where he found his 3 point stroke and inner swag.

      They should try and move JR, its tough but he has much more appeal than he did back when he was acting like a bitch.

      and if they can get a long term blue chip/talent that you can build around, Tim Hardaway Jr is at his season peak right now… Why wait until Woodson destroys his mojo and we are offering him for gerrald wallace?

    47. hoolahoop

      A few weeks ago, everyone here wanted to get rid of JR, after he came back and had two good games. I said it was crazy to trade him then, give him a chance. Everybody piled on calling me crazy.

      Same goes for Felton now. This would be the worst time to trade him. Mark my words. He’s going to have some breakout games. Then, hopefully he’ll become more consistent. He’s better than he’s shown this season and will prove to be a bargain.
      Step one – Fire Woodson.

    48. stratomatic

      Frank,

      I don’t think it even matters who we are targeting for 2015. That’s the point at which we can get bad contracts like Stat and Bargnani off the books. We can also decide on whether to bring back Chandler at a much lower salary depending on his health between now and then. The rebuild starts then, mostly likely with Melo (hopefully at a discount or that will be the first mistake), and you go from there over several years. But you at least want as many options as possible.

      To me, Felton has never been more than a backup which chronic fitness and weight issues. But now, he’s slipping and can’t defend at all. He’s toxic around the league. Denver didn’t want him. Portland threw him out of town. Now the Knicks may have to pay someone to take him before then.

      JR Smith is a mental midget and disruption. I don’t care how he plays in the short term or long term. If we actually want to win a championship some day, the team can’t rely on an immature, pot smoking, nitwit, party guy, with a low basketball IQ, and endless character flaws. At this point I don’t care if he’s still here this year or next year because we suck anyway. 2015 is the start of something that hopefully can be good. But by then, he has to be out of here.

    49. thenamestsam

      I think one specific concept our upper management does not grasp is the basic theory of SELL HIGH.

      I think this is basically down to the fact that we are run by the whims of a single (moronic) person. A good, healthy organization has checks and balances that make sure that decisions are not made impulsively. They have a long term plan, they manage the value of their assets, they avoid liabilities, etc. We have always basically done whatever Dolan felt like doing at the moment he felt like doing it. Since he’s not a particularly clever fellow that basically means that we always try to acquire name-brand flavors of the week, and we basically look to trade guys when they piss Dolan off (which naturally is when they’re doing poorly). Not that I’m saying anything revelatory, but every bad thing about the organization basically comes back to Dolan.

    50. max fisher-cohen

      @Frank,

      First, there are still some good players in summer 2015. Melo is playing great right now and IMO over the last season and a half has been a top ten player. I don’t know if he was even top 20 before that, but his transformation into probably one of the top five three point shooters in the league (when you consider volume and ratio of spot ups vs pull ups) makes him extremely valuable. His age and spotty injury history make him a risk, but IMO Love was never a good fit anyway. Melo is a power forward now and will only become more of one as he loses lateral quickness.

      If Melo takes a pay cut, the Knicks tank next season for a top pick, and they get out of JR and Felton’s contracts, there is the chance they could have a top five team if not in 15-16 then in 16-17 when they can use the MLE. I’d do something like this assuming Melo is at $18m in summer 2015:

      PG: Lin ($8m)
      SG: Hardaway Jr. ($1.3m)
      SF: Chandler Parsons ($12m) ( fat chance, I know… maybe Jimmy Butler instead?)
      PF: Melo ($18m)
      C: M. Gasol ($18m)
      bench: 2015 pick (~$3.5m)

      Healthy, that’s a 55+ win team.

      OTOH, if Melo isn’t taking a discount or he’s leaving, yeah, I agree with you. You’re not building a great team off a foundation of Tim Hardaway Jr., a high lottery pick and a bunch of money. Not with the FA class of 2015.

      If that’s the case though, you don’t stand pat; you trade Melo. 3 hours left.

    51. coyle022

      It’s official-Udrih for Hamilton.

      Hopefully Potato Head actually puts J-Ham in the game. 3 and D guy . Kawhi Leonard potential.

    52. Frank

      Wow – so Mills’s first trade is benchwarmer Beno for Jordan Hamilton. I’ll give this one an A++++ and I don’t even know anything about Hamilton.

    53. Frank

      So strange to see a Knicks trade where it feels like we got the better end of the deal. Even if Hamilton sucks he at least presumably has an upside since he’s only 23, has a history of being a good 3 point shooter, and is a rebounding beast at the 3 (basically top 10 in TRB for SFs for his career).

      anyway…never mind. Woj says Denver is still floating other trade balloons for Hamilton. Probably is a leak from Denver trying to get us to throw in our 2020 1st.

    54. Frank

      wow – FWIW since it’s Broussard:

      @Chris_Broussard: Lots riding on Shumpert MRI: in addition to possibly going to LAC, source says possible he goes to OKC for 1st round pick. If mcl not torn!

    55. Nick C.

      So the Beno for Hamilton being official was a false alarm? Too bad. As noted it is very rare where it didn’t feel like the Knicks got the pointy end of the stick.

    56. Hubert

      you give JVG a Doc Rivers-type deal and an equal vote at a 3 person table re: basketball decisions (Dolan, Mills, JVG).

      Here’s how I would imagine that three person table working:

      JVG: I say we do it.
      Mills: I agree
      Dolan: I vote neigh.

      And the neigh’s have it.

    57. Frank

      Here’s how I would imagine that three person table working:

      JVG: I say we do it.
      Mills: I agree
      Dolan: I vote neigh.

      And the neigh’s have it.

      lol. Truth is that the owner always has final say.

      Ian Begley now also reporting that OKC might trade us a 1st rounder for Shump.

    58. Hubert

      He also says he won’t go to NY because it doesn’t have a winning culture (Dolan)

      This is the biggest reason why you make the coaching change now.

      The top 3 candidates (Both Van Gundy’s and Phil) are available.

    59. Hubert

      Dolan: I vote neigh.

      And the neigh’s have it.

      Did I really write the sound a horse makes instead of nay? I would like to pretend that I meant that as some commentary about Dolan being a horse’s ass, but really it was just a brain fart.

    60. SlowMotion

      If it were on this years draft class or 2015 than it would be an equal trade in theory. Thunders pick will border on the 27-30 range for the foreseeable future and in a weakened draft class they get the benefit of getting an established 3-D role-player in his rookie contract which is hard to do deep in the draft. But this years draft will feature talent in the second that could have challenged for lottery in recent drafts.

    61. Frank

      Lesson learned: nothing has happened in the NBA until Woj says it has happened.

      Beno must be so pissed.

    62. ephus

      Iman Shumpert's MRI has revealed no tears in left knee, only a mildly sprained MCL, league sources tell Yahoo Sports. Could miss two weeks.— Adrian Wojnarowski (@WojYahooNBA) February 20, 2014

      Given the MSG history, I fully expect Shumpert to be out four-six weeks.

    63. TDM

      @70 – Both teams that showed interest in Beno have found other pgs. Denver gets Brooks, and Washington snags Andre Miller. Mills seriously screwed the pooch by not getting a Beno deal done.

    64. ephus

      Here is a trade that I have not seen rumored but makes too much sense for both sides:

      Philadelphia sends Jason Richardson to the Lakers for Pau Gasol.

      Lakers get out of the luxury tax for this year.
      Philadelphia gets out of Richardson’s $6.2 million for next year. Because Philadelphia is so far below the salary floor right now ($11 million), Gasol’s extra salary saves them money this year.

    65. lavor postell

      Mills screwed the pooch by not trading Udrih for probably some kind of B.S. second round pick or Jordan Hamilton? Yeah it kind of sucks we’ll lose him for nothing at the end of the year most likely, but he didn’t really destroy the long-term future of the Knicks (which is already kind of shitty in terms of draft picks).

    66. JK47

      Looks like no deal happening, as we’re 13 minutes from the deadline and rumors seem to have flatlined.

      Sometimes the best deals are the ones you don’t make. I would have loved to see the Knicks blow it up, trade Melo and Chandler and start from scratch but at least they do not appear to have dug the hole any deeper.

    67. TDM

      The guy asked for a friggin trade. Knicks are going nowhere with or without him. Could have possibly gotten a guy like Glen Rice Jr., young unproven talent, that could develop into a trade chip down the road. Beno chose the Knicks over Washington last off-season because he hoped he would be playing. The Knicks don’t need a malcontent in the locker room. Not to mention, pgs are being passed around today like groupies on a tour bus. Yeah, Mills screwed the pooch.

    68. thenoblefacehumper

      Stein now saying the Shumpert/Collison deal is back on the table, sounds like it’s more or less the Clippers choice at this point.

    69. KnickfaninNJ

      The NBA blog says Aaron Brooks has to approve the trade but probably doesn’t want to leave Houston. So it’s not totally clear it’s a done deal

    70. thenamestsam

      David Aldridge tweeted that we turned down OKC’s offer for Shump – rumored to be a 1st round pick. Very bad choice in my opinion if true.

    71. thenoblefacehumper

      Adrian Wojnarowski @WojYahooNBA now
      No deal for the Clippers and Knicks.

      Shump Shump…right guys?

    72. thenamestsam

      No trade. Could have been much, much better in a hypothetical world where we’d done the smart thing and torn this whole shit heap to the ground, but given the reality that rebuilding was never going to happen this is about the best thing that could’ve happened. We didn’t make a dumb panic trade – so that’s a victory.

    73. JK47

      That’s insane if NYK turned down a first-rounder for Shump. Like, clinically insane, like in the DSM-IV.

    74. ephus

      No deal for the Knicks and Clippers.

      Knicks have exactly the same roster now that they had yesterday.

      The Kommissar of PR for MSG: “James Dolan promised that there would be no trades. His prophetic words have been proven true by the march of history. All power to the luxury suites.”

      I expect that Beno will be bought out before March 1 so that he can sign on with a playoff team.

    75. thenoblefacehumper

      I give Mills a B-. Seems like there were some deals out there that he should’ve jumped on (no idea what happened with Beno-Hamilton), but at the end of the day we aren’t in a worse position than we were in yesterday. Which is a pretty bad position. So yeah.

    76. Ibai

      The knicks are in so bad position right now that they hadn’t been able to find a way to make it worse.

    77. Zanzibar

      While I wish we could have acquired Lowry, it’s promising we turned down these 2 deals:
      (1) OKC 2014 1st pick for Shump
      (2) Collison/Green/Matt Barnes for Shump and Ray

      btw looks like we never made Chandler available for any trades. And Hawes, maybe best stretch 5 in the league, went real cheap – would have been nice fit for Melo. I would have been happy signing him for 6m/year, even if he’s a backup if we were to sign 30 year old M.Gasol.

    78. Brian Cronin

      That’s insane if NYK turned down a first-rounder for Shump. Like, clinically insane, like in the DSM-IV.

      If that’s true, though, you know what that would have meant, right?

      “Knicks trade Bargs, MWP and an unprotected 2015 first rounder for Josh Smith”

      In other words, so long as the Knicks are not allowed to trade their 2015 first rounder, they’re probably better off not getting a late 2014 first rounder.

    79. thenoblefacehumper

      Yeah, the fact that Hawes went a lot cheaper than Bargnani makes me feel some kind of way.

    80. JK47

      Shump is kind of a bust, and he’s on the third year of his rookie contract. Presumably we had a chance to trade him for a first round pick that is not yet a bust, and who would obviously be on the first year of his rookie contract.

      Whatever, who cares. Um, go Knicks? Shump Shump? Woozle wuzzle?

    81. ephus

      For everyone who has been looking forward to the possibility of using expiring Stat/Chandler/Bargs contracts to rebuild, notice that expiring contracts brought nothing at this trade deadline.

      Gasol – $19 million
      Okafor – $14 million
      Ben Gordon – $13 million

      I would love for the Knicks to be able to turn Bargnani into Larry Sanders next year, but I do not have high hopes.

    82. ephus

      Also, it’s not clear to me that OKC offered its first round pick for Shumpert. It might have been Dallas’ pick, which is protected 1-20 though the 2017 draft and unprotected in 2018. Dallas may convey the pick this year, but it will be real close.

    83. Hubert

      Shump for one of the the last picks in the first round is a wash. The benefit is the two extra years of cost control if you nail the pick. But the cost is the unlikelihood of nailing a pick that late.

      That’s 6 of one, half dozen of the other. Wouldn’t have been mad either way.

    84. ephus

      And this is the one big expiring deal (for expiring deal) trade of the day:

      Philadelphia is sending Evan Turner as part of a package to the Pacers for Danny Granger, league source tells Yahoo Sports.— Adrian Wojnarowski (@WojYahooNBA) February 20, 2014

      Edit: Pacers are getting Lavoy Allen, in addition.

      I put the Pacers at the top of the pack now. They are going to have a lot of fouls and physical play to throw at Lebron James.

    85. Zanzibar

      Shump is kind of a bust, and he’s on the third year of his rookie contract. Presumably we had a chance to trade him for a first round pick that is not yet a bust, and who would obviously be on the first year of his rookie contract.

      Depends how you view Shump. When the whole team stinks except Melo, there’s a problem beyond the abilities of the individual players. That problem is our coach. Unless his knees are shakier than we know, I think odds are Shump becomes a solid 3andD player. The best for fit melo imo are these types of players:
      - A stretch 5 or an elite rim protector like Hibbert who transforms the defense
      - 3andD wings
      - PG just like Lowry (shoots 3s/defends/drive-and-kicks but does not have to be great at PnR)

      Note: Human nature is such that people always project sunshine and roses for draft picks and clear cap. Our situation is more complex; like it or not, Melo will re-sign and we have a limited window before he becomes Al Harrington. Shump more valuable in that context than a 28-30 pick.

    86. Hubert

      For everyone who has been looking forward to the possibility of using expiring Stat/Chandler/Bargs contracts to rebuild, notice that expiring contracts brought nothing at this trade deadline.

      Gasol – $19 million
      Okafor – $14 million
      Ben Gordon – $13 million

      I would love for the Knicks to be able to turn Bargnani into Larry Sanders next year, but I do not have high hopes.

      I predicted that expiring contracts would no longer be as valuable as people think in the current landscape. Everyone told me I was wrong. Time to do the RuRu/THCJ I told you so dance and change my name to Hubertdamos.

    87. Hubert

      All I know is any trade deadline where we didn’t set the future of our team back a year or two is a good one.

      I’m pleased (and pleasantly surprised) to have escaped unscathed.

    88. Brian Cronin

      predicted that expiring contracts would no longer be as valuable as people think in the current landscape. Everyone told me I was wrong. Time to do the RuRu/THCJ I told you so dance and change my name to Hubertdamos.

      Well, the Pacers just used their Granger expiring to get Turner, right?

      But yes, in a league where contracts are all artificially shortened, expirings will naturally have less of an appeal.

    89. Brian Cronin

      By the way, don’t sleep on Lavoy Allen in the Granger deal, too. He’s not an awful back-up big man for the Pacers.

      The Pacers are now almost too good. Turner just seems kind of superfluous.

    90. ephus

      Looking at the Granger trade that the Pacers just pulled off, I have to wonder why the Knicks can’t have executives that crafty.

      The Komissar of PR for MSG: “No press access for anyone making sarcastic reference to the class traitor Donnie Walsh. All power to the luxury suites.”

    91. thenamestsam

      Does anyone understand what Philly gets out of that trade? Just doing Indy a favor? What did they get out of this exactly?

    92. scott112180

      Try making this argument next season when there are actually a substantial amount of Free Agents many teams will want to have cap space for. You would need to have a pipe dream of luring Lebron or Melo this summer in order to value an expiring contract this year. I could see the Lakers but they already have an expiring deal. Okefor hasn’t even played and is dead money.

    93. DRed

      Just when you thought the pacers couldn’t get better

      Evan Turner suuuuuuuuucks. He’s been a huge bust.

    94. KnickfaninNJ

      The East seems to be getting stronger with Cleveland, Washington and Philly making moves. (Of course I thought the East would be better this season than last, so take this thought with a grain of salt)

    95. Hubert

      Try making this argument next season when there are actually a substantial amount of Free Agents many teams will want to have cap space for. You would need to have a pipe dream of luring Lebron or Melo this summer in order to value an expiring contract this year. I could see the Lakers but they already have an expiring deal. Okefor hasn’t even played and is dead money.

      Check out how many teams have cap room in 2015. Hint: it’s the entire league.

    96. thenamestsam

      I’m sure some people here are not going to buy this logic but Evan Turner definitely sucks as an offensive focal point on an awful team. For a third wing I think he’s pretty good. He’s not going to play a ton obviously which is why I don’t think this is some revelatory move, but he’s going to be solid off the bench for them I think.

    97. scott112180

      Question: If the Heat resign their big 3 will they have cap room in 2015?

      I know some teams will because of EXPIRING CONTRACTS but not the entire league.

      And when there are going to be prized Free Agents on the market, expiring contracts are valuable and will be acquired.

    98. lavor postell

      Umm Evan Turner isn’t very good unless he’s playing the Knicks. Exchanging him for Granger makes sense for both teams since Philly will be able to give Granger a lot of minutes and evaluate if he still has enough to give him a new contract versus Turner who they had no plans on re-signing. Indiana will get an extended look at a relatively young player with an option to re-sign at the end of the season.

      In Granger’s age 25 year he put up 25.7 PPG, 58.4 TS% and 40.4 3P% on 29.6 USG%. Turner is 25 now and in his 4th season is putting up 17.9 PPG, 50.4 TS% and 28.8 3p% on 24.2 USG%. Granger isn’t very good anymore, but I would have rather rolled the dice on him in the playoffs over Turner. Allen is more of a difference maker in this trade than Turner.

    99. Hubert

      Evan Turner in Italian is pronounced Andrea Bargnani. I don’t think this is that big a deal. They’re still going to be a minus team when Stephenson and George have to sit. But at the very least they have a body they can count on being there. It’s not a bad trade. I just don’t think we should overlook the fact that Evan Turner sucks.

    100. lavor postell

      Bosh going to PHX this summer would make a lot of sense to me. Miami committing to those 3 guys again could work if Wade took a substantial paycut and they could put in a solid supporting cast around them which would take even longer than last time with the new CBA. Also doesn’t Miami not have some picks coming up or am I wrong?

      Knicks standing pat is annoying only because this means Felton is still on the team. Fuck him and Mike Woodson the two biggest reasons we have massively underachieved.

    101. ephus

      Does anyone understand what Philly gets out of that trade? Just doing Indy a favor? What did they get out of this exactly?

      1. More tanking. Big difference between being guaranteed a top 5 pick (if you have the second worst record) and being in the 6 – 10 slots this draft. Embiid, Parker, Wiggins, Exum and Randle are considered a different level of prospect than anyone who follows.

      2. No marginal cost. Because the Sixers were so far below the salary floor, they have no marginal cost to taking on the additional salary. In fact, the Sixers will stay have to pay the other players (including Granger and Mullens) the difference between the salary floor and their final salary number (around $5 million).

    102. lavor postell

      I wouldn’t sleep on Vonleh at IU. That kid is a beast and I remember reading some execs had him ahead of Randle now.

    103. thenamestsam

      1. More tanking. Big difference between being guaranteed a top 5 pick (if you have the second worst record) and being in the 6 – 10 slots this draft. Embiid, Parker, Wiggins, Exum and Randle are considered a different level of prospect than anyone who follows.

      2. No marginal cost. Because the Sixers were so far below the salary floor, they have no marginal cost to taking on the additional salary. In fact, the Sixers will stay have to pay the other players (including Granger and Mullens) the difference between the salary floor and their final salary number (around $5 million).

      I get 1, but man that is a sad state of affairs making a trade just to get worse. As for 2, I get that it didn’t cost them anything, but that’s not the same as gaining something. Reports are they also got a future 2nd, so that pretty much explains it. Just felt like it was a pick light on their end.

    104. ephus

      Anybody we could potentially buy a pick from late first or early second round?

      If the Suns have three (or four) picks from 21 – 30, past experience says they would be willing to sell one for $3 million.

    105. lavor postell

      @ephus

      I know we don’t really need another 2/3 but I really like Terrane Pettway from Nebraska. Good shooter, great competitor and a great motor. Has a bit of a wild streak in terms of shot selection, but I think that’s more a product of who he’s playing with versus what he is as a player.

      Adreian Payne from MSU might not be a bad pick in the late first round also. A stretch 4/5 who has hit over 40% consistently in 4 years of college ball.

      Unfortunately not really liking the PG options late in the first round.

    106. Frank

      All I know is any trade deadline where we didn’t set the future of our team back a year or two is a good one.

      I’m pleased (and pleasantly surprised) to have escaped unscathed.

      +100000000

      So glad we didn’t send Shump out for Willie Green, Collison, and Barnes. That is horrible.

    107. ephus

      Philadelphia is also getting a second round pick, according to Zach Lowe. No word yet on whether it is Indiana’s 2014 second round pick or Golden State’s 2015 second round pick.

    108. max fisher-cohen

      Don’t understand the trade from Philly’s perspective. They don’t want to win, and this summer they won’t want to sign 31 year old guys with major injury issues. Maybe it was a favor to agents? Granger gets more minutes to maybe get another decent contract this summer and Turner, who Philly had pretty much ruled out re-signing, gets to hope that he becomes Indiana’s backup plan in the case Lance Stephenson leaves?

      I’m also not sure Turner is better than Granger. Statistically at least it’s hard to call Turner better. I don’t know. Maybe Indy sees Turner as a guy whose career they can resurrect, but I don’t see that happening in three months or whatever.

    109. Brian Cronin

      So glad we didn’t send Shump out for Willie Green, Collison, and Barnes. That is horrible.

      It is such a sign of how poor the Knicks management is that the trade ever even got changed to that point. But yes, kudos to Mills for not taking that awful substitution for the original intriguing deal.

    110. yellowboy90

      If Shump has this much value now if he finish out the year on a good note he will be the golden boy of the summer, imo.

    111. thenamestsam

      If Shump has this much value now if he finish out the year on a good note he will be the golden boy of the summer, imo.

      Not sure if this is sarcastic, but if not…what value now? Most serious rumor is he almost got traded for Darren Collison. That’s about as low as your value can go.

    112. hoolahoop

      Knicks were lucky/smart none of the rumored trades happened.
      I doubt OKC’s first round pick (essentially a 2nd round pick) will be better than Shump. . . . though Shump could have given a boost to OKC. Him and Abaka as lockdown defenders while Durant and Westbook supply the scoring would make them even more dominating.

      This team needs a new coach to inject some enthusiasm into this slowly dying bunch of underachievers.

    113. ephus

      Now that the trade deadline has passed, in the words of Coach Norm Dale to Hickory High School:

      This is your team.

    114. nyk8806

      Sadly, Gene Hackman would probably be a major upgrade over Woody. It sure would be nice to be overachieving underdogs for once, rather than epically crashing through the already low bar set by the MSM.

    115. Z-man

      Sort of glad nothing went down, since we were unlikely to improve the team much except at the cost of a future 1st rd pick. And as bad as Shump has been, I still believe in him. Hopefully we can look at his knee tweak as the break that kept him in town.
      Since the Knicks are essentially done, I actually hope that Indiana beats Miami and plays OKC in the finals. Anything to see LeBron not hoist another trophy works for me, and I truly like Vogel’s coaching.

    116. yellowboy90

      So if the Knicks do not have a use for Beno why not cut him and take a flyer on Bobby Brown or really anyone. Making sure to sign them to a two year, second year non-guaranteed.

    117. Totes McGoats

      I will admit I kinda like the no trade at the deadline thing cuz it kinda tells the team to man up. But at the same time i’m kinda disappointed that something wasn’t done. I mean..why empty the tank for the 8 seed and an unceremonious 1st round exit? If we weren’t gonna do a full rebuild then we coulda at least snagged P Jones and a 1st for Shump or even just a 1st. More often than not, contenders are looking to move back into the late 1st for a young asset they can develop. And..I get that Shump has potential and he could very well blossom in another environment. But Murry can give us the same production as the starting SG with less pressure from expectations. If another team is offering a 1st for Shump..u do it. And the deadline passing without a move makes me wonder if Melo has promised to re-sign. Don’t get me wrong..I’ll be happy if he stays. The guy’s a helluva player. But I feel like we missed a golden opportunity to rebuild with the weakened EC and Lebron and the Pacers still in their prime. And with Mills’ intent to use more advanced stats in his assessment of players, the team can get solid players before throwing the whole payroll out of whack for a star. And, if the JVG rumors are remotely true, it would only add to the idea of building a TEAM as opposed to one star and a buncha role players who either don’t understand their role or can’t play their role well. Like we have now.

    118. Cock Jowles, #1 Nostradumbass

      #1 If you have a Knicks’ draft pick in your fantasy trades, you’re an idiot. Seriously. I can’t take this board anymore. Since, like, 2011. But I love you all. But shut up.

      #2 Evan Turner is bad and I don’t get that trade. Sorry: 50% TS is going to hurt your team at any volume. Any.

    119. JK47

      I love how it’s considered a “win” that the Knicks actually managed to NOT make a terrible trade. That’s the first thing I thought, was “well, at least they didn’t trade away the 2018 pick.”

      If you set the bar any lower you’d have to dig a trench to put it in.

    120. nyk8806

      Color me jaded, but not trading it now just postpones the inevitable. I pray to the basketball gods it’s at least traded in furtherance of a legitimate 2015 rebuild and not to acquire a bandaid has-been/never-was to get us to the 8 seed next year.

    121. swiftandabundant

      I’m happy we didn’t make a move (except trading Beno for something would’ve been nice). But to me it means this crew can relax and just ride this season out, Woodson included. I imagine the losing and the fact that we haven’t lived up to the expectations has stressed some players out and also the fact that just about anyone might have been traded. Now they ride or die together. Sneak into the 8th spot and steal game one from The Pacers and the whole narrative on this season changes. All it takes is one game.

      Shump’s value is at its lowest. So is Felton and JR. Giving them the season to get better improves their tradability in the off season. Let Woodson ride out the season then step down gracefully and replace him with Jeff Van Gundy. Hopefully Murry and Tyler get some burn the rest of the way to improve. Shump could come back and if he has a good end of the season or playoff series, he’s now a hot commodity again. Chandler will definitely be moveable this summer. Amare and Bargnani become more moveable this summer. Get a better coach with Van Gundy, go into next season winning some games and now all those crap players are tradable. The fact that Mills wouldn’t give up Shump for garbage shows a change in philosophy. We didn’t trade Hardaway or Shump or a first rounder for the chance to get marginally better or clear the cupboard for a still questionable Rondo. We didn’t give up assets to rent Lowry for two months. Its frustrating as fans for us to see no action but sometimes its the best course of action. Next season, especially with a better/new coach, could look much more hopeful for the future.

    122. dtrickey

      Interesting to see the deals go down. Surprised there hasn’t been some big salary dumps (i.e. Gordon, Gasol etc.) go down.

      I’m not too fussed we didn’t go out and get some deals done. Would have been nice to move Beno out of respect for his request and to at least to get something for him. There were some OK deals floated around, but ultimately none of them would have really helped in the short-term. Probably agree with the sentiment that you could give the FO a deadline grade of a B. I’m alright with standing pat for the rest of the season. Actually see how things turn out (although you probably don’t really need a crystal ball for that) and assess your options come off-season.

    123. thenoblefacehumper

      If there’s anything to gather from the OKC-Miami game it’s that the Miami Heat are still the safest bet to win it all come June, and I have a hard time believing Evan Turner does anything to mitigate that.

    124. BigBlueAL

      I think the Pacers are the only team who can beat the Heat and thats only if they have homecourt. I think OKC would give the Heat a better series than in 2012 but I dont think they can beat them 4 out of 7 even if they have homecourt this season. Spurs dont look as good as last season but if they are healthy come playoff time that could be interesting since they do have Belinelli now who they didnt have last season.

      Of course if Wade isnt healthy in the playoffs then all bets are off.

    125. Brian Cronin

      Good Houston/Golden State game. David Lee just tied it with a pretty shot over Dwight Howard. The next Houston possession was kind of ridiculous, though. They just isolate Harden who holds the ball for 21 seconds before passing it to Lin not in position to shoot. It was sort of like, “One of us is going to have to chuck up an ugly shot, I’d prefer it not be me.”

    126. Brian Cronin

      Harden steals the ball and then he again isolates for 21 seconds – this time he takes the shot himself and nails it. 7 seconds left.

    127. Brian Cronin

      Looking at the Curry shot again, the Rockets had Parsons on Curry to start the play. Odd call by McHale. I guess they didn’t want him shooting a three.

    128. Brian Cronin

      Hilariously, with 3 seconds left, Harden gets the ball behind the three-point line wide open! He actually stumbled and then took a different shot and missed. I think if he was guarded more he takes the first shot and has a better chance of making it. You can tell that he was startled at how wide open he was. Overtime in Oakland!

    129. Brian Cronin

      Harden then again just holds it for 20 seconds and then misses. Not loving this offense, McHale!

    130. Brian Cronin

      But he then has an amazing block on Parsons with the Rockets down one to save the lead for Golden State!

    131. Brian Cronin

      Harden seems clearly hurt and yet he’s still in there and looking to take the possible game-tying three. Kind of odd.

    132. Brian Cronin

      Houston then loses it when the Rockets try a fullcourt pass from under their own basket, Grant Hill-style, because they were out of timeouts and Golden State was going to foul the first guy who got it. Understandable risk. Good game!

    133. iserp

      #2 Evan Turner is bad and I don’t get that trade. Sorry: 50% TS is going to hurt your team at any volume. Any.

      Danny Granger is shooting 49% TS. Evan Turner is younger, gets more assists, more steals, and incredibly, a bit less %TOV. Both contracts end this year. And although it is unlikely, he might be better in a diminished role. His play is similar to Lance Stephenson, which makes it easier to sub him for one another. I don’t see how you think it is a bad trade for the Pacers unless you put too much faith in the 2nd rounder!

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