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Thursday, October 23, 2014

Knicks Morning News (2014.02.17)

  • [New York Daily News] Hard to Deal With: Knicks don’t have pieces to make trade (Mon, 17 Feb 2014 06:31:23 GMT)
    Every move the Knicks make is done with the idea of keeping Carmelo Anthony happy and, above all else, keeping him in New York.    

  • [New York Newsday] Carmelo Anthony helps lead East stars over West (Mon, 17 Feb 2014 00:31:00 EST)
    Carmelo Anthony hasn't had much to smile about lately, and he brought some of the frustration from the Knicks' season with him here. But it didn't affect him Sunday night.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Opening Tip: Road to redemption? (Mon, 17 Feb 2014 06:00:15 EDT)
    Nineteen of the Knicks’ final 30 regular-season games are away from Madison Square Garden. Many see this as a death sentence for the team. But a look at the remaining regular-season schedule shows that some time away from Madison Square Garden may not be the worst thing in the world for New York (20-32). For one, the Knicks are 12-18 at home and 8-14 on the road. So they’re playing .400 ball no matter where the game is being played. And the Garden hasn’t exactly been a safe haven for Mike Woodson and the Knicks.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Melo stars with record-setting night (Mon, 17 Feb 2014 00:11:16 EDT)
    Late last week, Carmelo Anthony said it would be tough to enjoy the All-Star break because of the New York Knicks’ struggles. But it sure looked like he was having a good time on Sunday night. Anthony knocked down an All-Star record eight 3-pointers to help the Eastern Conference to a 163-155 win. The Knicks star finished with a All-Star career-high 30 points on 10-for-18 shooting. He also had five rebounds and two assists. The previous record for 3-pointers in a single game was six, held by Mark Price, LeBron James and Anthony.

  • [New York Post] Some rare smiles for Carmelo Anthony (Mon, 17 Feb 2014 04:12:06 -0500)
    NEW ORLEANS — It was an eventful All-Star weekend for Carmelo Anthony off the court in New Orleans, where he declared he'd take "a pay cut'' to re-sign with Knicks…

  • [New York Times] Irving, LeBron Help East End Its All-Star Skid (Mon, 17 Feb 2014 08:42:49 GMT)
    LeBron James usually has his fun in June, when the Miami Heat have won NBA championships the last two years.    

  • [New York Times] East Rally to Win Record-Setting All-Star Game (Mon, 17 Feb 2014 06:42:34 GMT)
    Kyrie Irving and Carmelo Anthony set aside the unrest with their respective teams and put on a dazzling show that vaulted the Eastern Conference to a 163-155 comeback win over the West in the highest scoring NBA All Star game ever on Sunday.    

  • [New York Times] Irving Validates All-Star Starting Nod, Wins MVP (Mon, 17 Feb 2014 06:30:52 GMT)
    Kyrie Irving validated the fan vote and offered a glimpse of how good he can be when surrounded by first-rate players.    

  • [New York Times] East Gets by Durant, Griffin to Win All-Star Game (Mon, 17 Feb 2014 05:48:45 GMT)
    From the first play to the final minute, LeBron James and Kyrie Irving made it clear how the East felt about this All-Star game.    

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Game of the Week: The Stars Come Back Out (Mon, 17 Feb 2014 05:26:02 GMT)
    After the All-Star break, the league’s two biggest names face off when LeBron James and the Heat visit Kevin Durant and the Thunder.    

  • [New York Times] Electrifying Rivalry and Overheated Scoreboard in N.B.A. All-Star Game (Mon, 17 Feb 2014 05:19:14 GMT)
    LeBron James and Kevin Durant were at the center of a growing debate over James’s legacy, and defense fell by the wayside at the N.B.A. All-Star Game.    

  • [New York Times] Love Fine With Timberwolves but Hungry to Win (Mon, 17 Feb 2014 03:34:39 GMT)
    The All-Star power forward Kevin Love said he remained committed to the perennially struggling franchise, but he could become a free agent in 2015.    

  • 106 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2014.02.17)

    1. er

      One more point about Melo. This might sounds dumb but I hope that clutch 3 last night can bring back some of the confidence in his shot late in close games. I know it probably has to do with being tired in the fourth but he seems to choke in close games nowadays whether it’s turnovers or just missing badly. It’s quite a stark difference from that first year in ny when he hit all of those late shots including the famous “I do this” shot in Memphis

    2. EB

      I could list about 100 different reasons as to why Melo hit that shot in the all star game but not during the regular season. About 85 of those are that the Knicks suck donkey balls and the Eastern Conference All-stars generally do not (excpet Bron-bron, but in a totally different way than the Knicks suck donkey balls, i.e., he’s good and not on my team).

    3. Tony Pena

      Fatigue or not, Melo is speeding up his moves come crunch time. What happened to what he was doing right after the 62 point game? i.e. Holding the ball, sizing up the defender/team D, THEN making a decision (all relatively quick).

    4. Hubert

      So, Mike Woodson is still the coach, and Melo is exerting pressure on the front office to do something this week. A front office composed of Steve Mills and James Dolan.

      This is the worst time to be a Knicks fan.

    5. lavor postell

      The only conceivable way I can see the Knicks getting Lowry or Teague in this rumored 3 team deal is if we take on some other undesirable contracts as well. Maybe Louis Williams from Atlanta is somebody they might want to get rid of as he still seems to be struggling in recovering from his ACL surgery. He’s shooting 4 percent worse from the field (career 41.8%, 2013-14 37.8%) and when I’ve seen him this year looks like he doesn’t have the same explosiveness he had before his injury. Landry Fields is another possibility to sweeten the deal from Toronto. All of these would obviously suck for various reasons, but man getting Lowry at the point would help me get over it.

      Also I sat pretty much directly behind Masai Ujiri for both Saturday and Sunday’s events. Based on the tidbits I was able to catch of him on the phone and how often he was on it, I’d be surprised if Lowry doesn’t get traded before the deadline.

    6. Brian Cronin

      I love the story about how the Knicks are trying to avoid throwing either THJ or a first rounder into a deal for Lowry. Yes, because obviously the Raptors will take less for Lowry now than they did back when he wasn’t playing nearly as well and they were well under .500.

    7. lavor postell

      I’d probably be ok if we had to take on Sweet Lou’s contract. It’s worth the risk if it can net us Lowry since it would expire after next season as well. Not sure how everything could match up financially, but if we’re actually looking to make a move we are definitely going to have to take on some kind of salary dump in the deal.

    8. Tony Pena

      and Melo is exerting pressure on the front office to do something

      This might not be such a bad thing. It forces the Knicks to be proactive. The “let all the big salaries come off the books in 2015” plan would still require the Knicks to be patient and kind of let the market play itself out. They could easily end up overpaying for whatever players they can fit under the cap (they’re sure to sign SOMEBODY after two years of suckitude with a possibly bad 2014 lurking). Then wait to see how the roster fits. If it’s not a championship team (ha!) then you’re stuck with more overpaid players, waiting for them to come off the books. I’d rather them be proactive now. At least assess their needs. They can’t trade away any more picks really, so whatever they get is going to be for the players that are already on the roster. I’m giving them the most basic benefit of the doubt in thinking that the last piece they would trade is THJR.

    9. JK47

      Oh yeah, it’s definitely worth giving up max cap space in 2015 to bring in Jeff Teague. He’s clearly the difference between a sub-.400 team and a championship contender.

      We should definitely empty the cupboard of all remaining assets to acquire Jeff Teague and his .507 TS%. This is a foolproof plan. Truly Dolan has a plan to…. C’MON EVERYBODY! SING WITH ME!! “FIX THE KNICKS, AND LET THEM SHINE, JUST LIKE 1969!!!!”

    10. BigBlueAL

      Forget Lowry, sounds like Teague is the real (more attainable) target. Why I dont know. He has 3 yr/24 mil left on his current contract and is an awful shooter.

    11. Tony Pena

      Def not sold on Teague. I mean nice player, but at 8 mil/per and the Knicks having to give up whatever little assets they have, he has to be the long term answer. Not sure. He has great games against the Knicks tho! (BARGS!)

    12. Tony Pena

      Jeff Teague. He’s clearly the difference between a sub-.400 team and a championship contender.

      No one player, even Lebron or KD, makes up a championship contender. But I think Lowry can be the starter on a strong squad.

    13. lavor postell

      Half the reason Teague is shooting at a career low level is that he’s playing significantly more minutes at the 2 this season than he ever has before. Teague is not somebody that should be camped out on the three point line waiting for catch and shoot opportunities. He is great at getting into the paint and collapsing the defense allowing for others to exploit.

      Don’t mean for that to sound like I’m defending Teague, because he’s an average starting point guard and considering he’s got 3yrs, $24m left on his deal after this season that raises questions. However I think going from playing 97-98% of court time as the point guard versus spending a quarter of your court time camped around the perimeter and taking contested jumpers is part of the equation.

    14. Brian Cronin

      Agreed. Teague is a fine player. But when the #5 seed in the East wants to dump their starting point guard who they just signed, it sure seems to be an indication that they don’t think Teague is worth the deal they gave him. Adding even more post-2015 money when the money being added is to a non-difference making point guard just seems like a bad idea. Lowry is at least really good (with tons of question marks about him, as well, but at least he’s having a great season).

    15. JK47

      The thinking behind the Jeff Teague idea is pretty clear: “We gotta do something, anything, to keep Melo, even if it means shooting ourselves in the foot for 2015 when we have lots of cap space.”

      Typical desperation move that makes zero long-term sense.

    16. Tony Pena

      Melo needs a PG more than a C at this stage. A list of NBA PGs that a) can be somewhat realistically had in the next 1.5 years b) would fill the position at above average rate c) are not a revolving door on D:
      -Rondo
      -Lowry
      -Eric Bledsoe
      That’s it. Yikes.

      Sucky Def honorable mention:
      -Kyrie Irving (and injury prone, Pass)

      Next tier:
      -Jeff Teague

      Some that their respective teams are too invested in, would probably take a lot to get, and have their own flaws:
      -Jru Holiday (assuming NOLA breaks this up)
      -Tyreke Evans (at 11 mil!)
      -Kemba Walker

      I think that’s it for above average. Go through that NBA PG list. Not much there. So Teague is not a bad target. But the Knicks are playing a high risk game. They can’t afford to make anymore mistakes.

      Some that you could trade for to finish out the season, without giving up Chandler, Shump, Tyler or THJ, and are better than Felton:

      -Any NBA guard
      -Greives Vasquez
      -Jarrett Jack
      -Mo Williams
      -Ramon Sessions

    17. Tony Pena

      I don’t mind giving up some of that cap space if we are getting a really good player back. I mean, that’s the whole end game. If they can leave room for one Max-ish player I think that’s fine. The ‘Big 3’ approach does not leave much wiggle room. Better to think ‘Big 2 plus Depth’. Having 40 mm in cap space and not filling it is useless anyway- remember, there’s a cap floor. So you’re asking the Knicks to fill-up the roster with whatever is on the table in 2015. I don’t trust.

    18. lavor postell

      There is value in being a fine player. We are witnessing that this season in which fine players like Novak and Kidd were replaced with not so fine players like Andrea Bargnani and whomever has possessed Iman Shumpert. Obviously in an ideal world we wouldn’t have to trade assets for Teague, but if Teague was a free agent in 2015 I think we’d be fine with signing him for 2 yrs, $16 mill.

      It may not be a move that pushes us into the elite, but pairing Melo with a point guard who isn’t Raymond Felton can make a massive difference. Hell anytime Felton has played effectively this season we have looked like a solid NBA team. Obviously if the question is between Lowry and Teague, then Lowry is a no-brainer every time.

    19. Will the Thrill

      By Melo putting pressure on the front office, he pretty much means that he doesn’t want to wait until 2015. I mean, what are we going to do until then to assure him that this is the place to be? We are going to end up paying the Jeff Teague’s of the world a good amount of money and eating up cap space to try to appease Melo into staying and this probably still won’t make him stay. I really don’t think Melo wants to waste another year of his career here, and I don’t think he has the 2015 free agency in his mind as to when we will become good again.

    20. swiftandabundant

      @20. I agree. Its funny how all season everyone has complained about how awful our PG play has been and now that there is a chance to clearly upgrade, people are complaining because of theoretical cap space in 2015 that it might cut into. Would I love to get Irving, Aldrige and Melo in 2015 as our big 3? Sure. But a big 3 is risky. Teague is a clear upgrade and would be a piece to the puzzle, someone who is a good PG on both sides. Felton plays 30 minutes a night. Replacing him with a better PG option makes this team instantly better. Plus, going into next year its easier to build the team. You know who your starting PG is, you got Melo, Chandler, Timmy Jr, JR and Shump. ITs not bad. Give some real burn to Murry and Tyler and now you’ve got a pretty decent core. Then you have money to spend on another Center when Chandler leaves. We really don’t have many more picks to give up anyways.

    21. bidiong

      Could we swing Chandler in some sort of multi team deal to get Lowry. I think we should trade Chandler while he still has value.

    22. lavor postell

      Can somebody who has synergy post Teague’s shooting splits? His two’s attempted per game have jumped up from 9.9 per game to 12 this season. He’s also had a precipitous decline in his three point shooting which is completely out of whack with the improvement he showed following his rookie season in which in 3 consecutive years he posted three point percentages of 37.5%, 34.2% and 35.9%. This year he’s shooting a putrid 25.6% from three. Anyways just want to see if there’s a reason behind these weird trends in his numbers.

    23. Hubert

      Melo needs a PG more than a C at this stage.

      No, Melo needs to be patient at this stage, and wait a year and a half.

      And if he doesn’t want to wait until 2015, which is entirely within his rights, he can join some other team.

      The dumbest thing he could possibly do is force this team to sacrifice future assets to supplement this core and then re-sign bc they met his demands and made marginal upgrades.

    24. Brian Cronin

      @20. I agree. Its funny how all season everyone has complained about how awful our PG play has been and now that there is a chance to clearly upgrade, people are complaining because of theoretical cap space in 2015 that it might cut into. Would I love to get Irving, Aldrige and Melo in 2015 as our big 3? Sure. But a big 3 is risky. Teague is a clear upgrade and would be a piece to the puzzle, someone who is a good PG on both sides. Felton plays 30 minutes a night. Replacing him with a better PG option makes this team instantly better. Plus, going into next year its easier to build the team. You know who your starting PG is, you got Melo, Chandler, Timmy Jr, JR and Shump. ITs not bad. Give some real burn to Murry and Tyler and now you’ve got a pretty decent core. Then you have money to spend on another Center when Chandler leaves. We really don’t have many more picks to give up anyways.

      Teague is only a clear upgrade because Raymond Felton is terrible. The team is 12 games under .500! What is the point of spending assets to upgrade the point (rather than make the point an actual plus, just “better than terrible”) when you’re 12 games under .500? Is a Teague-led Knicks team going to be a championship contender next season? Of course not, so what’s the point of screwing over the year that the team might be competitive?

      I mean, I guess if your only priority is to make the team better by any measure, then sure, get Teague. I suppose that’s what Melo is thinking. “Who cares about 2015? Just make us better now!”

    25. Hubert

      There is one plan, and one plan only, that offers Melo a chance at success with the Knicks:

      1. Fire the coach yesterday. Interim for this year. Best coach available this offseason. (Not best CAA coach available.)

      2. Melo opts in. Makes us much money as possible next year. He will deserve it. He will be underpaid at $23 mil with the shit team we’ll have.

      3. Hope that a real coach can restore some value to our pieces. Trade Chandler next year; trade Shump next year; let every expiring roll off the books. Bribe someone to take Felton.

      4. Keep your 2015 pick. Use it.

      5. Pray to god JR opts out of his contract in 2015.

      6. Recruit friends to come play w you in 2015, take your paycut then to make it happen.

      That’s his only hope of building something here. No trade for Lowry is going to make us a contender. Nothing we can do in 2014 is going to bring long term good.

      He has to be willing to wait. If he isn’t, he should leave. I won’t be mad at him if he does. I will fucking hang him in effigy if he leaves after forcing our front office to give up future picks for Jeff Teague.

    26. lavor postell

      You can’t just build a championship team instantly in one move unless you hit the jackpot like Miami in 2010 or the Celtics in 2007. Acquiring a player like Lowry/Teague addresses a position of need for the Knicks. In Teague’s case he might be a slight overpay at 8m/year, but Lowry who we could prolly re-sign for around 10m a year is definitely worth it. We wouldn’t even have a shot to acquire him since we wouldn’t have cap space this season.

      The problem is that we as an organization are committed to appeasing Melo at whatever costs and are thus going to continue to make stupid moves to make us more competitive without making the sacrifices necessary to get to that championship level. Ultimately I am okay with trading for Lowry or Teague not because it’s prudent, but because it’s a good move in the context of understanding the short sightedness of Dolan and the Knicks.

      If we are going to continue down this path of making desperation trades these would barely qualify because they actually address a need and I don’t think we’d have to give up far too much. Trading for Bargnani, throwing in picks for Felton and Camby, giving Amar’e 100m contract that was uninsured and unsuccessfully using leverage to hold on to 2-3 assets in the Melo trade all will have set this organization back further than the cost of trading for Lowry or Teague.

    27. JK47

      Would I want Teague on the team? Sure. Let’s see what the cost is. I bet it’s an unprotected first rounder, some horrible future swap rights and probably THJ. Devil is in the details.

    28. lavor postell

      @ 27

      That would be a very prudent strategy to rebuild the Knicks. Unfortunately we all know how much the Knicks value doing the prudent thing.

    29. Hubert

      And to the people talking about Chandler having value, I don’t think he has any right now. I don’t think the Thunder, Warriors, or Clippers would give us a damn thing for him because of the way he’s played and the extra year on his contract. You might have to give up something to get someone to take Tyson Chandler right now.

      All the more reason it is appalling we continue to let that fucking assclown coach this team.

      Better to bring in a new coach, get Chandler playing like Chandler again, and trade him next year when he’s an expiring.

    30. mokers

      Not sure why they would do teague. Lowry is the better 3p shooter, so would be a better fit in the 2PG small lineups. He is 2 years younger, so if you are worried Lowry doesn’t age well, that is one bonus. Teague is also a little bigger and a bit better of a defender. If your thought is that Lowry’s offense and Teague’s offense both go back to their normal ratings, they are closer players than this year’s numbers would show.

      biggest problem is that Mike Woodson would still be the coach.

    31. lavor postell

      I think we need to keep Chandler until next season. It will be his contract year, so he should be motivated and I’m sure his immune system will make a miraculous recovery to withstand all the various strains of influenza, SARS, ebola, malaria and dysentery that constantly ravage the country year after year. Like Hubert said his contract will also be expiring next season so it may be easier to deal him then.

    32. Tony Pena

      No, Melo needs to be patient at this stage, and wait a year and a half.

      He should wait 1.5 years in his prime so… the Knicks can sign all the free agents they can sign, whoever they be, good fir or not, in 2015? Or get the best one they can and wait another year on top? Or get none if they don’t like what’s out there and wait 3 or 4 yrs total? I’m not behind get whoever, whatever right now. I’m saying this 2015 master plan has to start now. ‘Let’s see what’s available in 2015’ is not patient and savvy, it’s almost lackadaisical.

    33. mokers

      I just don’t think Melo is not going to opt-in. 1 year contract vs a possible 5 year contract. No athlete does that. Any discount this year applies to next year as well. The problem is that the team needs to maximize the 2015 pick and having Melo on the team hurts that scenario. Best scenario is still trade your assets (melo included) for as many picks as possible. If the FO has done anything correctly recently, it has been getting value in the draft.

    34. DRed

      Jeff Teague? What the shit, Dolan? I wouldn’t want Jeff Teague if he played for free. Jeff Teague for 8 million a year? Hell fucking no. If the only good thing you can say about a guy is if he regains his shooting touch, he’ll be better than Ray Felton, then you’re talking about a guy who sucks at basketball. If the plan to convince Melo to stay is Jeff Goddamn Teague, than I say vaya con dios, Mr. Anthony.

    35. lavor postell

      Oh yeah I also completely forgot to mention that the whole “Steve Mills is held in high regard in NBA circles” is a real thing based on a couple of conversations I had over the weekend. My friend introduced me to his uncle as a Knicks fan at which point he spent 2-3 minutes making jokes about how the Celtics have won 17 championships and we haven’t won a ring since 1973. His uncle is Dr. James Cash Jr. who broke the color barrier at TCU, been on the board of directors for Microsoft, GE, etc. and is a minority owner of the Celtics. Anyways he then completely unsolicited spent about 2-3 talking about how much respect he has for Steve Mills and how he thinks he’s going to be a great asset for the Knicks.

      This was mind boggling because as we know he did a pretty atrocious job his first time around and also capped it off by recommending to James Dolan we hire Isiah Thomas. I was also very surprised because this man seems like the exact opposite of Steve Mills who went out of his way to try and destroy Anuche Brown Sanders for having the audacity to sue the Thomas, Marbury and the Knicks for sexual harassment. He knows Mills and travels in NBA circles far higher than I have access too so hearing how awesome Steve Mills is was surprising and a complete mindfuck since he hasn’t demonstrated much nous so far, although he also hasn’t had much to work with.

    36. yellowboy90

      Before this year(year’s not over) wasn’t Teague on the career track? However, maybe he lost it altogether.

    37. Brian Cronin

      Mills definitely has a good rep in the league. He was close to heading the Player’s Association, after all. He just hasn’t done particularly well with his work with the Knicks.

    38. Z

      Well, for the past 12 years mid-February has been the best time of the year to be a Knicks fan because it’s presented if nothing else a window out of the mire– a chance to see what is out there and how the Knicks can shuffle the deck to at least be somewhat interesting for the last six weeks of the season.

      But it’s not even fun to play on the ESPN Trade Machine right now because there are literally no good trades out there that the Knicks can make this week (at least if Carmelo Anthony’s proclamation is true). There is nothing out there that brings them closer to a championship. And even if a good player was available, the Knicks have no assets to shop with.

      (What is it that Ephus says about the time to be a Knick fan again?)

    39. maxwell_3g

      The thinking behind the Jeff Teague idea is pretty clear: “We gotta do something, anything, to keep Melo, even if it means shooting ourselves in the foot for 2015 when we have lots of cap space.”

      Typical desperation move that makes zero long-term sense.

      this is exactly how I feel about lowry as well. its amazing how smart people on this board are 95% of the time, but when given the opportunity to trade young players and picks for guys that we will be overpaying on a long term contract after this year, just so we can shoot for the 7th or 8th seed this year, people are all for it. KB FRIENDS, PLEASE STOP complaining about our front office, and simultaneously endorsing the same shortsighted thinking

    40. Hubert

      Let’s see what’s available in 2015’ is not patient and savvy, it’s almost lackadaisical.

      Actually it’s vital. It’s vital because we put ourselves in this situation through a series of mistakes in order to satisfy people who think being patient is lazy. If we make the kind of trades you are advocating (for Teague) we’ll have to wait until 2016. And then 2017. And that’s how you lose a whole decade.

      1. Fire the coach.

      2. Hire a good one.

      3. Protect all our valuable assets unless it’s for a true difference maker.

      4. Be patient.

      That’s the plan we have to sell Melo on. He’s not going to compete for a title in 2015. That’s just a fact. We might be able to do something for him beyond 2015 though. That’s all we can sell him bc that’s all we have. Trading for Jeff Teague is putting lipstick on a pig.

    41. maxwell_3g

      Apparently rondo is also available for two 1st round picks

      do the draft picks have to occur this century. if not, the knicks may be good

    42. maxwell_3g

      the idea of saving cap space for 2015 isnt just about signing big time free agents then. its about maintaining flexibility, gathering assets slowly, etc. then, when there is an opportunity to pounce on something, you are able too. you have all the leverage. you start fleecing short sighted teams. pretty much the opposite of what is going on now

    43. Hubert

      Also, I’m not saying he should wait. He should opt out and join LeBron somewhere if he can, or play with Rose & Noah for Thibodeau. He should do what’s best for him.

      If he wants to win here, and it seems like he does, the unfortunate reality is that he does have to wait. He needs to accept that. I imagine it’s hard, nearly impossible for him to accept that, but he needs to.

      We need to pay off the debt for all our errors and get a clean start. Not commit more of them and increase the debt.

    44. Hubert

      The problem is that the team needs to maximize the 2015 pick and having Melo on the team hurts that scenario

      Sadly, after watching this year, I’m pretty confident we can keep Melo and end up w a good draft pick in 2015.

    45. Tony Pena

      Not advocating for Teague. At all. He’s a nice player on a deal that’s above market value right now. If the Knicks bring him in at 3 yrs/24 mil and he under-performs it’ll be a bigger clusterfuck than what it is right now.

    46. Hubert

      @38 DRed – thank you. People are talking about Teague & Lowry like they’re the same caliber player. Just bc our stupid FO puts them in the same sentence doesn’t mean we should.

    47. Hubert

      Tony, but Teague is the only kind of guy we can get right now.

      If we can get Lowry for Shump Felton and a lotto protected 2018 pick, by all means let’s do it. But I doubt we can.

    48. Brian Cronin

      If we can get Lowry for Shump Felton and a lotto protected 2018 pick, by all means let’s do it. But I doubt we can.

      Definitely agreed. I doubt that that deal gets it done, but if it does, Lowry is worth it. Teague is not. You cannot by any means trade an unprotected 2018 pick for either guy in 2014 when you are twelve games under .500!

    49. The Ghost of Ted Nelson

      the idea of saving cap space for 2015 isnt just about signing big time free agents then. its about maintaining flexibility, gathering assets slowly, etc.

      I agree. Some teams did pretty well in the run-up to “The Summer of 2010″ by leasing their cap space to teams desperate to shed bad contracts. Houston, obviously, lent NY theirs with the McGrady deal; Washington got a 1st round pick for taking the extra year of Kirk Hinrich off of the Bulls payroll; Minnesota got the #2 pick in the draft from just a few years earlier by leasing their cap space to Miami.

      There is a reasonably fast turnaround for NYK in sight, but it has to start with replenishing assets, not burning them.

    50. Tony Pena

      Hubert:

      Also, I’m not saying he should wait.

      Yes you did. #25:
      No, Melo needs to be patient at this stage, and wait a year and a half.

      This offseason, either Melo leaves for nothing or the Knicks begin to re-re-build on the fly. If Melo leaves, which sadly would get a lot of likes if it was a Facebook comment, then “ The Plan” will be in full effect. Bargs, STAT, Chandler all coming off the books. So then it’s hoping Kevin Love reaaallllly wants to come here. They would have to build a team in one offseason. How exactly are they hitting the cap floor? Realistically? Middling players on short contracts, waiting for a big name to become available?
      I’ve only rooted for the Knicks while they’ve been bad, so I personally wouldn’t mind a true Rebuild. But we’re talking a 4/5 year plan to do it right. That’s just not going to happen in NYC in this day and age. JK47 mentioned the Mets. Well they’re about 3 years in, and still not much progress. Harvey gets a relatively common injury, and the plan is set back for 2 years. It’s a freaking conundrum. It’s going to take more than ‘let’s wait’ to have a good team.

    51. Hubert

      Or leave, I also said.

      Those are his only two choices because winning here now just isn’t on the table.

    52. Frank

      It’s really amazing how the perception of Lowry has changed in the last 6 weeks. 6 weeks ago, Zach Lowe was calling him a league average starting PG. Now he’s mad as hell he wasn’t an all-star. Very very few people thought it was a good idea to trade Felton/Shump/2018 #1 for him, and now it’s almost consensus. The dude has been red hot for those 6 weeks of a contract / trade drive. Let’s hope we don’t blow whatever assets we have left (ie. I am really feeling a THJ+Felton+2018 barely protected #1 for Lowry trade coming) for a guy who just happened to be a hot streak. That wouldn’t be the end of the world for me (I like THJ a lot but somehow and sometimes he feels like a rich man’s Anthony Morrow to me unfortunately) but THJ has a lot of love around the league now and one would hope that if we were to trade him, it’d be in a better deal than this.

    53. dtrickey

      Not sure I’m really all that sold on the idea of Teague. Definitely a nice player, but for his price meeeehhh I don’t know. Personally I would be all for just giving Pablo some more minutes at the PG. It probably doesn’t solve all our problems, but it might put a firecracker under Feltons arse and get him back playing some decent ball. I don’t think I’m quite ready to give up on Shump just yet. He’s a third year player who’s just having an absolute stinker this year on a team that’s having the same. I’m not sure we would be having the same conversations if he was having the same form problems, but our record was reversed.

      Where is this word that Melo is pushing the front office to make a move? Or is it just assumed? Maybe we’ve even got some Broussard “sources”?

    54. swiftandabundant

      @26 Brian. Was away for a bit. But its a little disingenuous to call next year’s squad a “Teague led” team. It would be a Melo led team. Just with Teague as the PG. I’m not saying he’s an elite PG. But he’s good. Way better than Felton. To me as long as we aren’t giving up another first round draft pick or TImmy Jr, then upgrading the PG spot with Teague seems like a no brainer. It won’t win us a title, but it could save us the embarrassment of missing the playoffs, which might help convince Melo to stay at a discount like he said he would. Teague would be part of the building block. I just think worrying about 2015 cap space so much that it prevents any moves is foolish. Melo wants a better team now. Felton plays 30 minutes a night. Replacing him with Teague makes us better on both sides of the ball at the PG spot. That is huge for us. If we don’t trade Chandler, Amare or Bargs to get Teague we still have their expirings coming up next year to make us better. I’d rather we get one more “star” to pair with Melo and some really good role players like Teague than go all in on another big 3. Rondo, for example, is a bigger name but may not be worth the bigger price tag (more money, giving up more to get him). I guess it all depends on what we give up for Teague. But if its Felton, Shump and MWP, 2nd rounder..then sign me up.

    55. DRed

      6 weeks ago, Zach Lowe was calling him a league average starting PG.

      I remember thinking Lowe had no idea what he was talking about when he wrote that. Lowry is having a career year, but he’s always been an above average player. Not best non-Chris Paul PG in the league good, but a nice guy to have on your team.

    56. Tony Pena

      Where is this word that Melo is pushing the front office to make a move? Or is it just assumed?

      Based on Melo’s comments with All-Star weekend media. Something along the lines of “I’m opting out and want to re-sign with the Knicks. (But) My number one goal is to be on a championship team. I would take a paycut.”

    57. Donnie Walsh

      If Carmelo wants to win and be a hero, he should force his way to the Cavs.

      Knicks get half a dozen of Cleveland’s youngsters/draft picks.

      Cleveland gets Carmelo Anthony to pair with an obviously synergistic Kyrie Irving to challenge LeBron with in the last year of Miami’s aging Big-III era.

      Win for NY.
      Win for CLE.
      Win for Anthony.
      Win for the NBA.

      (But of course it makes too much sense for all the stakeholders, so it obviously won’t happen).

    58. Brian Cronin

      To me as long as we aren’t giving up another first round draft pick or TImmy Jr

      But they aren’t getting either Teague or Lowry without giving up one of those assets.

    59. Hubert

      All this talk about what our front office might do to improve the team is distracting us from the fact that THAT CIRCLE BEARDED IDIOT IS STILL OUR COACH AND NOTHING IS GOING TO GET BETTER WITH HIM IN CHARGE!!!

    60. Hubert

      We’re actually going to continue to get worse bc he remains employed. How can we be serious about laying out a plan for success while we’re incapable of even the simplest action that is absolutely vital to our improvement??

    61. maxwell_3g

      why would you guys want to trade THJ and a future first, or even one of those plus shump for Lowry???
      1) He is a good player, but not near great.
      2) his value is at an all time high
      3) he is not a youngster
      4) he will not make us a scary playoff team this year
      5) HE IS A FREE AGENT AFTER THIS YEAR….. which means, we will either; a) outbid everyone else for him on a long term contract, ending up with a high priced pg without an established track record, under contract well into his 30’s; or b) we will lose him for nothing, meaning away we gave away TH2 and/or a future first for nothing

      we are a bad team. we are miles away from being relevant. teams that are one piece away (the rockets?, the pacers?, the the spurs?) should be trading for lowry, not us. for once, can we be smart and patient??

    62. ruruland

      I think that’s a fair argument, Max, but conversely, is it possible that Shumpert’s value is at its peak?

      There’s still the belief that he can turn into a good two-way player. To me, his inability to jump at all off of one foot severely limits his upside. His defense has gotten worse since his rookie year, too.

      If it’s just Shump and a couple of second round picks, you have to pull the trigger, right?

      “One scenario to keep an eye on, though, is the possibility of a three-team deal involving the Hawks and point guard Jeff Teague. Atlanta has all of its first-round picks in the next four drafts and could conceivably send one to Toronto to satisfy the Raptors’ demand for a draft pick.

      League sources say a scenario in which Teague ends up in Toronto, Shumpert goes to Atlanta and Lowry winds up in New York has been discussed. Another scenario could have Teague ending up in New York. The conversations are believed to be preliminary.”

    63. Hubert

      He is a gamble, Maxwell. He has a spotty track record. But holy shit, he is playing some amazing basketball this year. He’s the 2nd best PG in the league on current form. But yes, it’s far from guaranteed he will continue to be.

    64. ruruland

      You don’t think it’s possible?

      To me, there’s a dream you can sell on him. I really think there’s a chance that this is as good as he gets. He’s simply an awful finisher.

    65. ruruland

      Shumpert is a career .422 shooter on two point shots. which includes .392 and .407 the last two years after his surgery.

      For the kinds of shots he gets — transition, a lot of cuts and drives– that’s absolutely atrocious.

      He shot 48 percent at the rim last year and he has the same ftr as Raymond Felton. In other words, Raymond fucking Felton has been better around the cup the last two seasons, and his looks are considerably more difficult as a primary ball-handler.

    66. ruruland

      Melo isn’t a great finisher, though when you consider his ability to convert on his own misses he’s at least solid, but the last three years he’s finished at the rate of 66, 60 and 55 percent at the rim. Consider that Melo is driving into traffic at a significantly higher rate than Shumpert.

      Just to give you an idea of how bad of a finisher Shumpert is for his perceived athleticism.

      Will Bynum, for example, 63 percent at the rim last season. Very hard to be passable on offense when you are a sub 50 percent finisher at the rim on transition and cuts.

    67. DRed

      Ruru, do you want me to go find what you were saying about Shumpert after last season? He would have brought back more in a trade if we dealt him after the Indiana series.

    68. ruruland

      DRed, I know exactly what I’ve said about Shumpert. It’s okay to change your opinion when the evidence changes or more empirical data comes in.

      I thought that his finishing problems were primarily related to the surgery recovery. But we have three years now where he hasn’t shown lift off of one foot.

      His inconsistent defense, his lack of focus. I think you can sell him as a guy who can be the player we saw in the Pacers series. I think there’s a chance that’s as good as it gets for him.

      Have you forgotten about Landry Fields?

      We’ve waited all season for Shumpert to break out. I don’t honestly think he’s capable of doing it on a consistent basis.

    69. DRed

      And if you’re saying his peak value was last year, I wouldn’t argue with you.

      It sure as shit isn’t right now, which is what you said like 10 minutes ago.

    70. ruruland

      But it doesn’t matter if it was in the past. It’s whether it will go up or down. Christ. How about you say something instead of trying to pick fights?

    71. maxwell_3g

      my theory of the melo comments was that he wanted the FO to go get rondo for next year. considering sactown apparently just offered Isaiah Thomas, McLemore, and 2 future firsts for rondo, it looks like we may be a little (a lot) short on assets. thats what happens when you make reach trades constantly

    72. maxwell_3g

      ruru, no one is saying that we can get lowry for shump and 2 seconds (which we prob dont even own) as you just suggested. probably cant get him for shump and an unprotected 2018 pick. at some point it needs to stop, or in another year, we will be talking about trading the 2020 first rounder for ersan ilysova or someone

    73. Brian Cronin

      Holy shit, who the fuck is running Sacramento? Thomas, McLemore and two first rounders for Rondo? Sacramento has the worst record in their conference! They have the fourth worst record in the entire league! And they are dealing future first rounders?! Luckily for them, Rondo apparently told them not to bother as he wouldn’t re-sign there long term. But still, wow, what a shitty trade.

    74. Brian Cronin

      If it’s just Shump and a couple of second round picks, you have to pull the trigger, right?

      Correct.

    75. Brian Cronin

      From Ian Begley:

      New York is continuing to try to pry Lowry away from the Raptors, offering packages that include Felton, Iman Shumpert and Beno Udrih,

      Holy shit, how is Toronto keeping themselves from saying yes to that deal!?

    76. DRed

      It’s hilarious that we are trying to get Lowry, who is a very good player, for less than we gave up for Bargnani, who is the worst player.

    77. Brian Cronin

      Right? It’s insane. How is your pitch, “Yes, I know we just traded you more than this for a much worse player during the offseason and I know that we already offered you more than this for Lowry earlier in the season when he wasn’t playing nearly as well as he is now and you guys were well under .500, but how about you take a pupu platter for Lowry?”

    78. maxwell_3g

      the only way these teague rumors make any sense is if ferry is convinced (and is convinced that the rest of the league is convinced) that teague, with his contract is a liability. otherwise, there is no way that they would be considering trading him for a pu pu platter that doesnt include TH2 or a 1st rounder and there would be absolutely no way that they would cinsider throwing in a first rounder to make a 3 way trade work. i say its all BS. But….if they want to trade first rounders and actually ove shump, why dont we offer shump for a first and someone like demarre carroll or pero antic, or whatever cao filler would work. it is time to BLOW IT UP, not rebuild

    79. Will the Thrill

      Holy shit, how is Toronto keeping themselves from saying yes to that deal!?

      Hey, (1/3) of a good player x 3 = 1 good player! I’m not sure if Felton is 1/3 of a good player, though.

    80. Brian Cronin

      the only way these teague rumors make any sense is if ferry is convinced (and is convinced that the rest of the league is convinced) that teague, with his contract is a liability. otherwise, there is no way that they would be considering trading him for a pu pu platter that doesnt include TH2 or a 1st rounder and there would be absolutely no way that they would cinsider throwing in a first rounder to make a 3 way trade work. i say its all BS. But….if they want to trade first rounders and actually ove shump, why dont we offer shump for a first and someone like demarre carroll or pero antic, or whatever cao filler would work. it is time to BLOW IT UP, not rebuild

      I dunno, the three-way deal doesn’t say that Atlanta is giving up the first, does it? I read it as the Knicks giving up the first to Toronto, Atlanta giving Teague to Toronto and the Knicks getting Lowry. But yeah, it would require Atlanta to be willing to deal Teague for just Shump and Felton, which does seem impossible.

    81. maxwell_3g

      If it’s just Shump and a couple of second round picks, you have to pull the trigger, right?

      Correct.

      except, that has never been the deal. not even close. if ruru is allowed to make up the trades, i supposed that he can come up with a lot of trades for lowry that we would all sign up for. i vote for amare and felton for lowry, expirings, and a first

    82. maxwell_3g

      no brian, they are talking about atlanta supplying a first, because of NY reluctance to give up either TH2 or the 2018. the toronto GM has to be like, “What the hell, you just gave us an unprotected first for that POS Bargnani, now you wont give one up for Lowry?”

    83. maxwell_3g

      brian, i should add, when I say “they say”, I have no idea who “they” are and I fully admit that the trade makes no sense to me

    84. Hubert

      Don’t worry, guys, Coach thinks we can win w what we got:

      @HerringWSJ: Woodson, on whether he needs upgrades b4 trade deadline: “I came into this season thinking we could win w this tm, & I still feel that way.”

    85. DRed

      Remaining optimistic in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary is a big part of what we do as a team.

    86. maxwell_3g

      i dont have a problem with woodson saying that. to me its better than talking about how your players arent good enough. seriously, what is he supposed to say? OK, I have now stuck up for woodson my one obligatory time for the year

    87. DRed

      Among five-man lineups that have played 100 minutes or more, the Knicks' starting five is the most efficient in the league. Which is crazy.— Chris Herring (@HerringWSJ) February 18, 2014

      Because Woodson loves big lineups, & has only played this group for 110 mins all season. RT @romblebee: Why doesn't that translate to wins?— Chris Herring (@HerringWSJ) February 18, 2014

      That’s what you get for sticking up for Woodson

    88. lavor postell

      What I don’t understand is if we’re committed to building around Melo the easiest way for us to bring back value is to trade Chandler. You could probably send him to OKC for Perkins, Jones III/Adams and their first rounder this year. Chandler at his minimal effort this season is still a massive improvement over Perkins who is fucking terrible in every single way you can suck at the game of basketball.

      I know OKC doesn’t necessarily need to do this to be a contender, but Chandler would bring the same “intangibles” that Perkins does as a former champion and I think make them the consensus favorite in the West. You can easily platoon Chandler and Collison at the 5 to make an extremely effective pairing there and most importantly his contract expires the same time Perkins’ does. Then again this is OKC and they value draft picks and young players so there’s that.

    89. Donnie Walsh

      Right? It’s insane. How is your pitch, “Yes, I know we just traded you more than this for a much worse player during the offseason and I know that we already offered you more than this for Lowry earlier in the season when he wasn’t playing nearly as well as he is now and you guys were well under .500, but how about you take a pupu platter for Lowry?”

      Perhaps the bargnani trade came with a hand-shake “future considerations” deal like in the old days… (Lowry is the “player to be named later”?)

    90. hoolahoop

      Blahahhahahaaa! Kyle Lowry or Jeff Teague is the missing piece to join Melo in beating Miami, Indiana and OKC. Not sure if this team is more tragedy or comedy.

      Let’s trade draft picks, young talent and anything of value to get these super elite players. Whatever it takes.

      Dolan: Melo, you’re going to thank me. Yes, thanks to me, you’re wish has come true. They’re in the gym working out right now.
      Melo: Fuck outta here. CP3 is in the house? Anthony Davis, too?
      Dolan: No, we got Jeff Teague for Ray, THJ, and all our future picks forever.
      Melo: What da fuck? Jeff Teague? Who’s he on?
      Dolan: Jeff Teague from Atlanta. Anyway, I got your new contract right here. $15 million year for four years.
      Melo: I heard dem Eagles dudes had some badass weed, but you’re way high, man.

    91. Brian Cronin

      I wouldn’t deal an unprotected first rounder for him, but Kyle Lowry is at least legitimately very good. Teague, yeah, not so much. I’d probably let THJ go for Lowry. Not for Teague. And since the Knicks pretty much would have to trade either THJ or a first rounder to get either Lowry or Teague, then I wouldn’t do any deals for either guy.

    92. Brian Cronin

      By the way, why wouldn’t Atlanta just throw in a first rounder of their own and trade for Lowry themselves (a pick and Teague)?

    93. Brian Cronin

      Oh man, I love the Heat reporter who suggested that if Lebron, Wade and Bosh all opt out and then re-sign for $14 million, they could afford to add Melo to the Heat. Ha! Obviously it would never happen but that’d be hilarious. Melo at the 4, Bosh at the 5, Lebron at the 3, Wade at the 2, Chalmers at the 1? Would you even need any other players?

    94. Brian Cronin

      Also, this is how well managed the Knicks are. JR missed a game (that the Knicks lost to a shitty team) because his face mask was too uncomfortable. Okay, fair enough, can’t blame him. If you can’t wear a face mask, then you can’t wear a face mask. So get him a new one, right? Wrong. He’s going to play against Memphis with the same face mask that forced him to miss a game because it was too uncomfortable to wear!

    95. Brian Cronin

      When the Knicks make the playoffs (and the odds are very good that they will make the playoffs), I want to see Woodson act like he succeeded since he got the team into the playoffs.

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