Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Tuesday, September 30, 2014

Knicks Morning News (2014.01.28)

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Opening Tip: Can Melo win a title in N.Y.? (Tue, 28 Jan 2014 06:00:24 EDT)
    Carmelo Anthony has won a scoring title and an NCAA National Championship. He’s won multiple Olympic gold medals and played in plenty of All-Star games. So the list of priorities for the rest of Anthony’s career is simple and short. There’s winning a title, and there’s everything else. “Nothing else even motivates me anymore, just that,” Anthony said on Monday. Carmelo is in his 11th season in the league, so there’s little left to accomplish at this point.

  • [New York Times] Durant Does It Again as Thunder Rally Past Hawks (Tue, 28 Jan 2014 05:39:06 GMT)
    Kevin Durant played the fourth quarter Monday night with the intensity of an NBA Finals game.    

  • [New York Times] Love Scores 31 as Timberwolves Beat Bulls 95-86 (Tue, 28 Jan 2014 05:17:55 GMT)
    Both the Chicago Bulls and the Minnesota Timberwolves were missing their starting centers.    

  • [New York Times] Favors Powers Jazz Past Depleted Kings, 106-99 (Tue, 28 Jan 2014 05:11:56 GMT)
    Derrick Favors had 17 points and 12 rebounds, and Marvin Williams added 16 points and 11 rebounds to power the Utah Jazz past the depleted Sacramento Kings 106-99 on Monday night.    

  • [New York Times] Favors Powers Jazz Past Depleted Kings, 106-99 (Tue, 28 Jan 2014 05:06:13 GMT)
    Derrick Favors had 17 points and 12 rebounds, and Marvin Williams added 16 points and 11 rebounds to power the Utah Jazz past the depleted Sacramento Kings 106-99 on Monday night.    

  • [New York Times] Raptors 104, Nets 103: Nets Give Up Chance to Close Gap on Raptors (Tue, 28 Jan 2014 05:03:27 GMT)
    The Nets allowed an opportunity to win their 11th game of the month slip from their grasp as they fell to the Raptors for the second time in January.    

  • [New York Times] Patterson’s Shot Lifts Raptors Over Nets, 104-103 (Tue, 28 Jan 2014 04:36:22 GMT)
    The Toronto Raptors are the only thing standing between the Brooklyn Nets and a perfect 2014.    

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Roundup: Anthony Says Winning Title Is Sole Focus (Tue, 28 Jan 2014 04:35:22 GMT)
    The Knicks’ Carmelo Anthony refused to elaborate on free agency, but he did make clear that he wants to be in a situation where he feels he can vie for a title.    

  • [New York Times] Clippers End Grammy Trip, Rout Bucks 114-86 (Tue, 28 Jan 2014 03:36:05 GMT)
    Blake Griffin dominated the paint with 20 points, Jamal Crawford scored 25 and the Los Angeles Clippers ended their seven-game road trip with a 114-86 win Monday night over the Milwaukee Bucks.    

  • [New York Times] Suns Lead All the Way in 124-113 Win Over 76ers (Tue, 28 Jan 2014 02:44:56 GMT)
    Gerald Green scored 30 points and Goran Dragic had 24 to lead the Phoenix Suns to a 124-113 victory over the Philadelphia 76ers on Monday night.    

  • [New York Daily News] Melo: I only care about winning a championship (Tue, 28 Jan 2014 04:16:59 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony knows the deal, knows that even close friend Kobe Bryant said on Sunday that collecting championship rings is the only thing that will alter public perception for star players who haven’t previously won one.    

  • [New York Daily News] La La says Melo will ‘definitely’ stay with Knicks (Tue, 28 Jan 2014 04:13:23 GMT)
    On the same day Carmelo Anthony talked at length about prioritizing winning an NBA championship, his better half said she “definitely” believes her husband will re-sign with the Knicks. “I definitely think he will stay,” La La Anthony said on “Watch What Happens Now.”    

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks Insider: Melo & co. not sticking around for Super Bowl (Tue, 28 Jan 2014 04:06:52 GMT)
    Super Bowl Week finally is in full swing in New York, but the Knicks will be leaving town on Sunday before the big game. After the Miami Heat come to town for a game Saturday night, the Knicks will depart the next day for a game in Milwaukee on Monday.    

  • 81 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2014.01.28)

    1. Hubert

      Every time I venture away from this site to read some opinions on mainstream sports sites I quickly become disgusted and return here.

      I was just belatedly catching up on the weekend’s top takes. Apparently Melo scoring 62 points is something to be derided and picked apart; but a couple of petulant, cheating, scumbags that don’t matter to anyone outside of Boston returning to said shithole of a city is something that should be applauded nationally.

      I would rather read 9 pages of Owen and RuRu arguing about Tyson Chandler than the shit that passes for discourse on most sites these days.

    2. Nick C.

      I understand that Pierce has had several buzzerbeaters or late game shots against the Knicks and Garnett is somewhat overfeisty. Why the over the top namecalling? Did they kill someone? I don’t microparse their lives but are they classless jerks off the court. I know this is a Knick board and, as such, other teams players are to be loather, but this all seems so off, especially from a board that has half the time half the posters hating the team or its direction.

    3. er

      Are you joking? They are Celtics. That should be enough, but the fact that they are jerks AND they have killed the Knicks puts the icing on it.

    4. chrisk06811

      did anyone see how the Nets blew that game last night? up 1 with like 12 seconds left, D-Will throws away the inbounds pass….Tor scores. Nets have no Timeouts left, they have no clue what to do and almost get called for 5 seconds, then take a crappy Pierce shot at the buzzer. Totally unprepared.

    5. Nick C.

      Meh. Until the last few seasons the Knicks have been a team that it was hard to root for and in fact during Isaiah’s tenure easy to root against. Every 50 point blow out, Rickey Davis dunk or three was one step closer to Dolan coming to his senses. Since the Knicks got good the Celtics have been down so they never bothered me. At any rate I preferred them to Miami/Lebron in the playoffs.

      While I am apparently being contrary. How has Durant done without Westbrook? We are frequently and multiply apprised of his fumbles but lately it has been crickets.

    6. Hubert

      Why the over the top namecalling? Did they kill someone?

      Are you serious?

      Calling Kevin Garnett petulant and cheating isn’t name calling, they are apt adjectives that describe what he does on the court.

      The scumbag bit may be aggressive titles, but when you intentionally yank Carmelo Anthony’s arm out of it’s socket during a playoff game and blow kisses to the MSG crowd, I think you’ve earned them.

      Never thought I’d see the day when someone attacks hating two pieces of shit like Pierce and Garnett on a Knicks site.

    7. Donnie Walsh

      If all Anthony cares about is a title, why not opt in for next year, then re-sign in NY for the minimum?

    8. Nick C.

      Are you serious?

      Calling Kevin Garnett petulant and cheating isn’t name calling, they are apt adjectives that describe what he does on the court.

      The scumbag bit may be aggressive titles, but when you intentionally yank Carmelo Anthony’s arm out of it’s socket during a playoff game and blow kisses to the MSG crowd, I think you’ve earned them.

      Never thought I’d see the day when someone attacks hating two pieces of shit like Pierce and Garnett on a Knicks site.

      Geez sorry. I didn’t realize that asking a simple question was so offensive. I I won;t bother next time. Back to our regularly scheduled programming the endlessly fascinating attempts to psychoanalyze Melo by people that never met him.

    9. Hubert

      At any rate I preferred them to Miami/Lebron in the playoffs.

      I was the opposite. In fact, it was playing the Celtics that made me start loving LeBron James again. He had lost me after the decision (not because of how stupid the decision to televise it was, but because I was bitter he didn’t choose us). I spent most of that year going along with the crowd and hoping he would fail. Until he played Boston. And it wasn’t Rondo (I’ve always enjoyed his game); and it definitely wasn’t Allen (who I’ve loved since I watched him light up MSG at UConn). At that point I had to go back to cheering for LeBron. And I kind of haven’t stopped (when he’s not playing the Knicks).

      I think my LeBron love stems from my Jordan hate. And it’s twofold:

      1. I hated losing to the Bulls so much that it denied me the ability to appreciate one of the greatest athletes of all time. I literally appreciated zero moments of Michael Jordan’s career. Nothing about it gave me joy. So I kind of missed out. And now that someone in his class is around, it’s nice to be able to marvel at it without unadulterated hate getting in the way.

      2. Said hate still persists, and I want LeBron to succeed as much as possible because I know it will piss off the man who ruined my early Knicks fandom.

      Anyway, sorry if I may hate for Pierce & Garnett offends you, but it keeps me warm. I kind of love the fact that those two bastards are ending their careers in the shadow of the Knicks playing for a team no one really gives a shit about. I would like it even more if every time they went food shopping in Brooklyn they would get hit in the head with organic watermelons.

    10. Hubert

      Sorry, Nick C, I think my hatred of those two spilled over into that post so much that it made it seem like I was attacking you. Didn’t mean that. You’re more than welcome to be reasonable. I can’t be when it comes to them, or anything that reminds me of them. One time my girlfriend blew me a kiss and I spent the rest of night angry and mad.

    11. knickster

      I understand that Pierce has had several buzzerbeaters or late game shots against the Knicks and Garnett is somewhat overfeisty. Why the over the top namecalling? Did they kill someone? I don’t microparse their lives but are they classless jerks off the court. I know this is a Knick board and, as such, other teams players are to be loather, but this all seems so off, especially from a board that has half the time half the posters hating the team or its direction.

      Childish stuff.

      The same people who (irrationally) hate Garnett and Pierce conveniently forget the current object of their adoration once cowardly sucker-punched Mardy Collins.

    12. Frank

      If all Anthony cares about is a title, why not opt in for next year, then re-sign in NY for the minimum?

      while you’re at it, why not get him to opt out NOW and then resign a 5 year contract for the minimum?

      I think there’s maybe some middle ground between the minimum and the super-max that is fair to Melo and ok for the team. I still think a deal averaging around $21-23MM for the full 5 years is a reasonable place to be for Melo provided that they structure the deal in such a way that his cap hit is less for our big splurge 2015 offseason — especially considering the cap is likely to go up significantly after the new TV deal is signed after the 2016 season (ie. Melo will not take up as big a percentage of the cap after that).

    13. knickster

      @7

      If all Anthony cares about is a title, why not opt in for next year, then re-sign in NY for the minimum?

      I have asked the same – the usual excuse is that he might get a career-ending injury in the interim…

    14. lavor postell

      I hate Pierce, but he deserves all the love and reverence he gets from the Boston fans having played their for 15 years and been through his fair share of suck in that time. I still hope to never have to see him strut around MSG again after hitting a clutch jumper from the elbow.

      The Garnett love is a bit nauseating though from both his end, the Boston fans and the media. Him talking about how he bleeds Green and he’s a Celtic for life while Boston fans serenade him and make video tribute for a guy, acting like he’s some kind of lifer Celtic that spent 18 years bearing the burden of winning the 18th title all with the tacit approval of the national media is sickening.

      First off this is a guy who made a Mother’s day joke to Duncan who’s mom died when he was 14. This is a guy who punched Wally Sczerbiak in the face in practice, deliberately pulled Melo’s shoulder out of his socket, talks all kind of shit, barks and woofs without any repercussions in today’s watered down and pussified NBA. He spent 10 years in Minnesota and 6 in Boston, which were obviously highly successful, but 6 years do not make a Celtic4Lyfe, especially not when his best years came with another franchise. Fuck KG and his bullshit “no-nonsense, wants to win, a real competitor” reputation that ignores the amount of bullshit he’s got away with in his career.

      Garnett is a first ballot HOF’er but fuck that guy in every which way.

    15. lavor postell

      I have asked the same – the usual excuse is that he might get a career-ending injury in the interim…

      Yeah what an absurd consideration for a player to make. Also him opting in this season or otherwise doesn’t help us in any way if we assume he’s going to sign long-term with the Knicks in 2015. If anything I’d rather have him locked up, hopefully have a monster season again next year and have him in the bag to sell to free agents that summer. Additionally in 2015 there are way more teams with cap space, so a lot more potential for us to have to offer a higher salary with more variety of attractive destinations.

    16. Hubert

      If all Anthony cares about is a title, why not opt in for next year?

      I’ve been saying all year that opting in is his best option.

      Right now, neither re-signing with this team in the state it’s in nor bolting this team after you worked so hard to get here seems like a good choice. So why not opt in and give it one more year and see if the Knicks can get their act together and execute their plan for 2015? It also minimizes the heat if you leave. And, oh by the way, he would make a shit ton more money over the rest of his career doing it this way.

      It could also be the worst choice for the Knicks, if they take it as pressure to improve next year and move their expiring contracts for more Bargnani-type “fixes”.

    17. Hubert

      I hate Pierce, but he deserves all the love and reverence he gets from the Boston fans having played their for 15 years and been through his fair share of suck in that time.

      From Boston, absolutely.

      I was getting disgusted by the national coverage. From what I was reading over the weekend:

      - Carmelo Anthony scored 62 points, and the national discourse talked about how is a selfish gunner who takes inefficient shots and plays the wrong way.

      - Kevin Garnett actually DOES play the wrong way (illegal screens, dirty plays, intentionally injuring players, insulting the wives and dead mothers of his peers), and the national discourse seemed to be about a tribute the world’s greatest warrior.

      Just made my blood boil a bit, that’s all.

    18. kronicfatigue

      Better for Melo to leave when Knicks are at their worst. From a PR standpoint, nobody could blame him for leaving a team that fails to make the playoffs, especially since he’s having a monster year.

      If Knicks manage to get a 6th seed and beat the Hawks, then it becomes dicier.

      Leaving in ’15 when the PR sell is the cap space and Dolan pretending he’s going to get talent would be the worst.

    19. DRed

      - Carmelo Anthony scored 62 points, and the national discourse talked about how is a selfish gunner who takes inefficient shots and plays the wrong way.

      - Kevin Garnett actually DOES play the wrong way (illegal screens, dirty plays, intentionally injuring players, insulting the wives and dead mothers of his peers), and the national discourse seemed to be about a tribute the world’s greatest warrior.

      KG was a much better player than Melo in his prime, so while he is a dirty player and a fake thug bully, he also did a lot of things right on the court. We would all love KG if he had been a Knick most of his career.

      The best way to avoid being annoyed by the national discourse is to not pay any attention to it. It’s shockingly terrible. Carmelo had an amazing game the other night. It was a ray of sunshine in a gloomy season. Who gives a shit what some idiot at ESPN has to say about it?

    20. Nick C.

      Hubert I will grant you it is odd how some no rings, mostly one and done stars get treated differently. Look at Melo, Garnett with Minnesota or Chris Paul for example.

      Does anyone have faith that this front office will be able to get the players the team needs if Melo stays?

    21. Frank

      Look at Melo, Garnett with Minnesota or Chris Paul for example.

      Yeah – CP3 goes out in early Jan and since he’s been out, the Clips have literally the best offense in the league with an OffEff of 112.8. But no one talks about the fact that they are just fine without him. He does the exact same thing as Melo in terms of forcing his way out of town, yet no one calls him Paul-o-drama. And his playoff record is even worse than Melo’s.

    22. lavor postell

      http://grantland.com/features/the-resurrection-of-the-dallas-mavericks/

      “The Mavs are the league’s strangest team, and it’s something in which they take pride. They give regular minutes to a lineup featuring no player taller than 6-foot-7. They play more zone defense than anyone but the helpless Bucks. They’ll break out Marion-Blair pick-and-rolls, and even the occasional Nowitzki–Sam Dalembert Frankenstein pick-and-roll”

      “In this league,” Carlisle says, “you have to embrace who you are. We have to embrace our inner misfitness.”

      Carlisle and Nowitzki personify these strange Mavs. The coach is an oddball wizard, regarded around the league as the NBA’s second-best tactician, behind only Gregg Popovich. Talk to executives on other teams about the Mavs’ cap sheet and lack of trade assets, and many of them will stop you right away: “Remember the team’s most valuable long-term piece — the coach.”

      It’s amazing more coaches don’t experiment and tinker the way Carlisle does. Outside of Popovich I think he’s the best coach in the league and if Dallas can ever start drafting like San Antonio he might be able to replicate that type of success. Articles like this just make me so angry Woodson is our head coach.

    23. lavor postell

      Yeah – CP3 goes out in early Jan and since he’s been out, the Clips have literally the best offense in the league with an OffEff of 112.8. But no one talks about the fact that they are just fine without him. He does the exact same thing as Melo in terms of forcing his way out of town, yet no one calls him Paul-o-drama. And his playoff record is even worse than Melo’s.

      I wonder how the press would have reacted if Melo had punched some dude in the nuts like Paul did with Julius Hodge in college.

      Paul is great and I think he ultimately makes the Clippers a better halfcourt offense which is essential to their potential success in the playoffs, but he monopolizes the ball more than Melo but since this leads to a lot of assists as he’s the point guard that fact gets hidden nicely. He also is not a very adept fast break point guard and limits the ability of Griffin, Jordan, Crawford, Collison etc. to get out in transition by slowly bringing the ball.

      I’ve watched a lot of the Clippers and their offensive success without Paul I think stems from how often they get out on the break, but I don’t think that’s sustainable in the playoffs. Either way while Paul is great I think his status as the best PG in the game is not some indisputable truth and that while he adds a lot to the Clippers he doesn’t necessarily complement Griffin very well.

    24. johnno

      There are two kinds of sports hate — the first is when you despise a guy who killed your team regardless of the fact that he is, by any measure, apparently a good human being (like Giant fans used to feel towards Roger Staubach; I HATED that guy); the second is when you despise a guy who killed your team and also seems like pretty much of a douche (like Knicks fans feel towards Pierce and Garnett). The former is easy to get over once the player stops killing your team while the latter is enduring. Juvenile, I know, but it is what it is…

    25. johnno

      By the way, I just watched the highlights of the Nets game last night. How much did that look like the end of any number of Knicks games this year? Could you imagine how this board would be exploding this morning if the Knicks lost the way the Nets did last night (especially since Kyle Lowry had such a great game)??

    26. er

      knickster-”His tenure in New York has brought the little dirty secret to the forefront: Melo is just a gifted volume scorer and not much else – even when he tries. ”

      —On Sunday, Melo played in his 41st game, the equivalent of half a season. He has accumulated 1115 points, 367 rebounds and 126 assists. The last player to hit those numbers in his first half-season was Shaquille O’Neal, way back in ’99-’00. Lebron James is pretty much unanimously considered the best all-around player in the game, yet he has never gotten to all three of those lofty totals in one half-season. The only other players to get there in the last 25 years: Shaq, David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Karl Malone, and Charles Barkley. That’s some pretty damn good company.

      http://www.postingandtoasting.com/2014/1/28/5349342/the-bluecheese-wonder-room-1-20-1-27

    27. knickster

      @28Cherry-picking stats (“hey, let’s just consider this portion of his tenure or that portion of his career”) is not the smart or objective way of judging a player. Especially when the conclusion is that even LeBron James (of all people!) has never reached those “heights”…i got news for you: Lebron and carmelo don’t belong in the same sentence. And that’s not a knock on carmelo, a great player in his own right (but far from a superstar).

    28. er

      You are the worst kind of person to debate with (A goal post changer). Who said melo was as good as Lebron? You said Melo is nothing more than a volume scorer. When i show stats that refute that, then we hear hes not as good as Lebron. The worst.

    29. DRed

      Carmelo is having a very good season. He deserves to be in the All-Star game. But let’s not get carried away because of some cherry picked stats. He’s nowhere as good as Lebron, even if he’s hit some arbitrary milestone that Lebron has not.

    30. DRed

      You are the worst kind of person to debate with (A goal post changer). Who said melo was as good as Lebron? You said Melo is nothing more than a volume scorer. When i show stats that refute that, then we hear hes not as good as Lebron. The worst.

      If you want to refute someone calling Carmelo purely a volume scorer, just point to his terrific rebounding numbers this year. Don’t mention Lebron at all, because he’s a much better basketball player.

    31. er

      –If you want to refute someone calling Carmelo purely a volume scorer, just point to his terrific rebounding numbers this year. Don’t mention Lebron at all, because he’s a much better basketball player.

      I didnt write that. I linked to the person who did. But it was important to incude the portion of the quote with those names i felt. It shows that hes not just some guy. That said hes not as good as any of those guys.

    32. knickster

      I didnt write that. I linked to the person who did

      lol…but you were using the writer’s analysis (cherry-picking stats and all, including the LeBron part) as your own argument. Now that it is exposed as ridiculous, you are trying to distance yourself from it. Funny.

    33. er

      What am i distancing my self from? What is ridiculous?

      Stats are stats idk what “analysis” is ridiculous about that. If the names that put up similar stats are ridiculous then so be it.

    34. cgreene

      Jeez. Some crazy word twisting by Knickster and DRed. All er is saying is Melo is having a very well rounded season thus far comparable to some half seasons of great players so the “he’s just a volume scorer” narrative is bunk. And ps that narrative has been bunk for a season and a half at this point. Put it to bed for crying out loud. No Carmelo Anthony is not as good as a guy who may go down as literally the greatest player of all time. But he’s damn good right now. Superstar, elite, great these are all just words. Right now Melo is a top 10 player in the league. Period end of story. The Knicks suck. Literally every single other player on the team is having one of the worst years of their career.

    35. cgreene

      Ok. I think it is very hard to discuss Melo this year within the context of the other great players in the league based on how bad his teammates are. Was Melo top 10 last season? I mean he finished 3rd in MVP voting and PER fwiw. He put up his best efficiency w his highest usg. So if we just compare him statistically across seasons this year his scoring efficiency is a little down as is his usg. And his rebs and assists are up. D looks similar. Seems to me unless we think a number of players passed him then he’s still top 10. That’s my argument.

    36. DRed

      Ok. I think it is very hard to discuss Melo this year within the context of the other great players in the league based on how bad his teammates are.

      Nonsense.

    37. Tony Pena

      How has Durant done without Westbrook?

      Stepped it up another level. Meditated like a Buddhist…

    38. DRed

      Melo, broadly speaking, is playing a lot like he did last year, when he was on a team that was talented enough to win 54 games. So I think it’s fair to compare him to other players who are on better teams.

    39. cgreene

      Ok. So if Melo was a top 10 player last year. And this year he is playing a lot like last year. Then Melo = top 10 player. Pretty easy logic equation by my estimation.

    40. cgreene

      Unless you think a bunch of players jumped ahead. Lamarcus and Willard come to mind. I would have said Melo was better than Blake last year but maybe not this year. But Kobe who had a great year has fallen out. I might even say Dwight Howard has fallen out as well. So where’s the list?

    41. er

      I would love to hear cgreene and Dred top 10.
      mine is alot diff than the preseason in no order

      Lebron
      KD
      Paul
      Love
      Westbrook
      Melo
      George
      Griffin
      Parker
      Curry

    42. DRed

      A top 10 is fairly arbitrary, but here are players I’d rather have than Carmelo. Lebron, Durant, Paul George, Iguodala, and Leonard over Carmelo. And those are just the guys who play his position. I’d take Howard, Kevin Love, Deandre Jordan, CP3, Noah, Curry, Drummond. I dunno. There are a lot of guys I’d rather have than Melo.

    43. cgreene

      I still have a hard time with Paul George being a better individual player. That team is so stacked. Here are best players in the league in no order.

      James
      Durant
      Paul
      Westbrook
      Aldridge
      Curry
      Love
      Griffin
      Melo
      Harden
      Willard
      Parker
      Howard
      George
      Unibrow is pretty darn close

    44. Hubert

      Ok, we’ve reached the DeAndre Jordan > Carmelo Anthony portion of the thread. My cue to leave.

      One final thought:

      You know one guy who probably has been better than Melo this year? (And this is no knock on Melo, who I think has had an outstanding, albeit probably not top-10, year.) Kyle Lowry.

      I was among the people who were happy we didn’t trade an unprotected future pick for him at the time. And you can still argue it isn’t smart to trade away a future pick when you’re going nowhere. But damn. Kyle Lowry has been outstanding. If we had Lowry instead of Felton, and anyone instead of Woodson, we’d probably be as good as last year, IMHO. (I’m assuming the fact that we have anyone instead of Woodson means we aren’t foolishly playing Bargnani as much as we currently are).

      Oh, and speaking of AB, isn’t he pretty much the reason we don’t have Lowry? Fuck that fucking trade, man.

      I was also pissed off two years ago when I thought we probably could have gotten Lowry from Houston when they pursuing Lin if we had any sort of foresight. So that’s about twice now I think we’ve missed getting an excellent point guard due to our own stupidity.

    45. knickster

      The problem with all those Top-10 lists is that they are very subjective and only look at a part of the entire picture.

      Is Carmelo really better than Paul George at this point?

      Stats do not provide a clear answer, but there is another way of looking at it: a combination of stats, eye test and value to the team. The first two are self-explanatory, while the third one is a bit trickier, but essentially uses the first two (actual and perceived production, play) and compares them to age, salary, contract length, trade value, etc.

      When you mix all those elements, you see clearly why Indiana would never trade Paul George for Carmelo Anthony at this point and why there is at least another 15-20 players whose teams would not swap straight up for Carmelo (Durant, Curry, Harden, Love, LeBron, Westbrook, Chris Paul, Griffin, etc.). Melo is a better player than some of them, but not a better value.

      Numbers are only a part of the equation – but that’s just my opinion.

    46. er

      do you mean lillard? You keep saying Willard. lol. DRed you just dont like melo. Anyone who would take Jordan or leonard is not objective

    47. Nick C.

      Maybe I am a homer but after Lebron and Durant is there really any clear cut pecking order? I know by reputation Paul is 3, but I am not so sold. Who there is, by reputation, even an average defender? Howard and George and Westbrook. Melo has been at least that. He even gets a video game block a week, which never happened before. You have some TO machines on there as well. If you want to put in the Noahs of the world (WAR in baseball would say do it) but I don’t have a way mentally to equate it.

    48. Hubert

      Anyone who would take Jordan….is not objective

      I wouldn’t go that far, but it certainly means you are a very zealous believer that WS/.48 is the absolute indicator of a player’s worth. I expect some other posters to vehemently agree with him.

      I cut Leonard out of your statement because a case can be made for him with all things considered (contract, age, etc). I like Melo more than Leonard right now but I would probably (almost definitely) trade Melo for Leonard tomorrow factoring in age, contract, etc.

    49. DRed

      You know one guy who probably has been better than Melo this year? (And this is no knock on Melo, who I think has had an outstanding, albeit probably not top-10, year.) Kyle Lowry.

      I was among the people who were happy we didn’t trade an unprotected future pick for him at the time. And you can still argue it isn’t smart to trade away a future pick when you’re going nowhere. But damn. Kyle Lowry has been outstanding.

      Yeah, I didn’t put him on my list b/c I thought people would think I was just trolling, but I agree. Lowry has been one of the best 2-3 non-CP3 point guards in the league this year.

    50. DRed

      I wouldn’t go that far, but it certainly means you are a very zealous believer that WS/.48 is the absolute indicator of a player’s worth

      Jordan, Anthony and Leonard all have essentially the same WS/48. So I wouldn’t say that. I would say it’s evidence that an objective person could think that Carmelo is not as good as those other two.

    51. DRed

      Hubert, isnt that my point? If you base everything on WS/48 then you are not objective.

      I wouldn’t base rankings on any one box score metric. But it is more objective than saying “Carmelo was a top 10 player last year, and he’s playing basically as well this year, so therefore he is still a top 10 player”. It’s also more objective than saying “anyone who thinks Jordan or Leonard are better than Carmelo is not objective”.

    52. Hubert

      Lowry has been one of the best 2-3 non-CP3 point guards in the league this year.

      How funny was it watching that game last night when Lowry was pretty much everything Brooklyn hoped Deron Williams would be, and Deron Williams was crap. Again.

      I don’t know if this is just a guy in a contract year playing out of his mind, but at the level he is at right now, he’s worth the max.

      So, in case you were keeping score at home: the trade that Dolan allegedly forced us to make with Toronto (for Bargnani) has been the most worst deal of the year so far. And the trade the Dolan allegedly forced us to back out on with Toronto would have been the best deal of the year so far.

      Dolan.

    53. DRed

      So-why would I take Jordan over Carmelo? Aside from LOL I hate Melo? Jordan is a center. It’s harder to find good centers than good small forwards. He’s the best rebounder, this season, in the NBA. He scores in a limited, but efficient fashion. He doesn’t turn the ball over. He’s a pretty good shot blocker. Jordan is a guy who will win your team a lot of possessions, and getting more possessions is a good way to win basketball games.

    54. er

      –I wouldn’t base rankings on any one box score metric. But it is more objective than saying “Carmelo was a top 10 player last year, and he’s playing basically as well this year, so therefore he is still a top 10 player”. It’s also more objective than saying “anyone who thinks Jordan or Leonard are better than Carmelo is not objective”.

      I agree, to judge a player you must look at multiple metrics. But i strongly feel like Jordan or Leonard for melo straight up in a vaccum is absurd. I could be wrong, but there are more Leonards and Jordans than Melos in the league

    55. Brian Cronin

      Here’s a crazy stat I just saw from Yahoo. In 2001-02, Spree took more threes than Allan Houston. Man, that is stupid.

    56. johnno

      You know what’s really funny? Loads of people on this site trash PER as an antiquated and inaccurate way of measuring a player’s worth. (Probably because Melo ranks in the top 10 in PER.) Then, when you ask those same people to name their top 20 players in the league and you compare their lists to the top 20 players in PER, the two lists are virtually identical. The same people who trash PER and claim that Melo is not even a top 30 player but, rather, is an average efficiency volume scorer worship at the alter of WS and WS/48. He’s top 10 in the league in total WS and top 20 in WS/48.

    57. Frank

      So, in case you were keeping score at home: the trade that Dolan allegedly forced us to make with Toronto (for Bargnani) has been the most worst deal of the year so far. And the trade the Dolan allegedly forced us to back out on with Toronto would have been the best deal of the year so far.

      lol true – but the wild card is that Lowry’s a FA after this year. They wanted Felton, Shump or Hardaway, and the 2018 pick — and no one else is lining up to offer up 1st rounders for Lowry even with his career year so far.

    58. cgreene

      This discussion was not about contracts or age or potential IMO. It’s about if you had to win this season one player’s value vs the other regardless of teammates. E.g. I know if I had Harden and another scorer I dont need Melo and would rather Leonard. It’s Harden or Melo in a vacuum.

      Also yes I meant Lillard… ha.

    59. DRed

      But i strongly feel like Jordan or Leonard for melo straight up in a vaccum is absurd. I could be wrong, but there are more Leonards and Jordans than Melos in the league

      Jordan leads the league in defensive rebounds, total rebounds, rebounds per game, FG%, eFG% (obviously not in FT%), Total Rebound %. He’s in the top 5 in offense rebounds, offensive rebound %, blocks, block %, defensive rebound % and defensive win scores. You think there are guys like that all over the league? I was shocked by how good his numbers were, but the kid is having a monster season.

    60. The Ghost of Ted Nelson

      I think there’s maybe some middle ground between the minimum and the super-max that is fair to Melo and ok for the team. I still think a deal averaging around $21-23MM for the full 5 years is a reasonable place to be for Melo

      That is fine, I suppose, but if Anthony is serious about a championship being the only thing he cares about, then he should just play for free. It’s been said here by somebody that Anthony has made $300,000,000 and doesn’t need to make any more. Anything he takes could otherwise go toward buying another asset. Would he really be okay being a #3 option? If he was, he’d probably win a championship.

      And there’s not really any injury insurance. Injuries happen, and if he gets hurt, he won’t win a championship. So, if all he cares about is winning, the best injury insurance he can have is great teammates to pick up the load should his body break. (Like Patrick said, in somewhat selfish fashion back in 1999, when he was injured for the finals: “win me my ring!”)

      The same people who (irrationally) hate Garnett and Pierce conveniently forget the current object of their adoration once cowardly sucker-punched Mardy Collins.

      Yeah, if anybody here rooted for Mason, Oakley, Starks, and Harper, Pierce and Garnett shouldn’t really be criminalized in a court of decorum.

      He does the exact same thing as Melo in terms of forcing his way out of town, yet no one calls him Paul-o-drama.

      It wasn’t the exact same thing. Paul’s team didn’t even have an owner, so there couldn’t be a “long term plan” to even make him a part of. And he didn’t target a team. In fact, he was jerked around by the league, which effectively traded him, and then nullified the trade, in a comedy of errors by the league. And then he opted into his existing contract to allow his new team to build around him. (Oh, and he made the Clippers instantly and significantly…

    61. lavor postell

      The question wasn’t who has a better contract, who has a better value, or who gives you most production per dollar. The question was who are the top 10 players in the league. No shot that Leonard or Jordan are even in the top-20 forget 10 in the league. Jordan has gotten better defensively and his elite athleticism allow him to recover when he is out of position and allow him to be a very good rebounder and finisher around the rim. He’s a liability at the end of games still because he can be neutralized by good halfcourt defenses and his free throw shooting is still atrocious.

      Leonard is a very nice player with lockdown ability on defense. I have a hard time saying he’s better than Carmelo when he’s the 4th option on his team offensively and gets most of his point off of catch and shoot opportunities and basket cuts. I think Popovich is being patient in developing him to be ready to be a primary offensive option so I’m not sure there’s much he can do about it now, but I’d expect him to displace Anthony in the next year or two as Ginobili’s offensive load slowly gets shifted in his direction assuming he can remain an efficient scoring option, though he hasn’t demonstrated much ability to distribute. Melo has never had a season with as low an AST% as Leonard has put up this year, 9.1, a career high.

      I love Iguodala as well, but I’ll take Melo over him purely because I’m scared to see what an Andre Iguodala with declining athleticism would look like. That time is approaching as Andre has already hit the age 30 mark.

      Also one thing I’ll say about Melo that I think is extremely valuable when discussing him but doesn’t get enough credence is his willingness and ability to play as a legitimate 4 not just for 5-6 minutes stretches, but game after game. Lebron is a monster at the 4 but will not do it for more than stretches at a time. Durant simply can’t take that abuse. Is Melo as good as those absolutely not, but neither of them bang at…

    62. Glew

      Dred- You do realize Jordan is career 42% free throw shooter…He would be brutal to have on the court in close games

    63. DRed

      The same people who trash PER and claim that Melo is not even a top 30 player but, rather, is an average efficiency volume scorer worship at the alter of WS and WS/48. He’s top 10 in the league in total WS and top 20 in WS/48.

      Dude, you’re not even doing it right. The strawman is that I worship at the alter [sic] of Wins Produced.

    64. Hubert

      They wanted Felton, Shump or Hardaway, and the 2018 pick — and no one else is lining up to offer up 1st rounders for Lowry even with his career year so far.

      I thought the offer we nixed was Felton and one of Shump/Hardaway/2018 pick?

      Either way, I didn’t think people weren’t lining up to trade for Lowry, I thought Lowry basically played his way out of trade talks. If you’re Toronto, how do you sell tanking to your fans when you’re the 3rd best team in the East? Even if it is a terrible conference, that’s tough to make your fan base swallow.

      I just assumed people weren’t throwing first round picks at Lowry right now because that wouldn’t get it done.

    65. DRed

      Dred- You do realize Jordan is career 42% free throw shooter…He would be brutal to have on the court in close games

      Indeed. And that’s a valid criticism of him. But I think with Jordan on your team you’d be less likely to be in close games.

    66. johnno

      DRed — Which is the stat that led CJ1N to conclude that Jordan Hill was “awesome at basketball?” That’s the stat that is clearly useless.
      P.S. Good catch on alter…

    67. Brian Cronin

      I thought the offer we nixed was Felton and one of Shump/Hardaway/2018 pick?

      Either way, I didn’t think people weren’t lining up to trade for Lowry, I thought Lowry basically played his way out of trade talks. If you’re Toronto, how do you sell tanking to your fans when you’re the 3rd best team in the East? Even if it is a terrible conference, that’s tough to make your fan base swallow.

      I just assumed people weren’t throwing first round picks at Lowry right now because that wouldn’t get it done.

      Toronto still doesn’t think it’ll re-sign him, so Lowry is still very much available. I think teams are wary that his two best seasons by far so far were both contract seasons.

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