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Wednesday, December 17, 2014

Knicks Confirm They Will Not Match Fields’ Offer Sheet, Possibly Won’t Match Lin EITHER

The Knicks confirmed that they did not match Landry Fields’ offer sheet, so Fields will be a Toronto Raptor next season.

However, the Knicks have made a sign and trade deal involving Jared Jeffries and Non-Guaranteed Contract (otherwise known as “Dan Gadzuric”) for Raymond Felton and Kurt Thomas. In the deal, Felton received a three-year deal for roughly $9-10 million total. Jeffries gets a year guaranteed from Portland plus two unguaranteed years. Portland gets the Knicks’ 2016 second round pick and the Knicks get the rights to some European players the Blazers stashed awhile back.

Therefore, with Felton in the fold, some sources are indicating that the Knicks will not match the offer sheet and Lee will become a Houston Rocket.

Shocking, right? I know! Who knew that the Knicks still had a second round pick that they hadn’t traded yet? Seriously, though, this is a major shocker. Things are undecided and a few New York beat writers still believe that the Knicks will still end up matching Lin and just playing a two point-guard backcourt (which the Mavericks did in the 2011 playoffs with Kidd, who is on the Knicks and the Nuggets did in 2011 playoffs with Felton, who is also on the Knicks).

We shall see. The deadline to match is Tuesday.

285 comments on “Knicks Confirm They Will Not Match Fields’ Offer Sheet, Possibly Won’t Match Lin EITHER

  1. BigBlueAL

    Damn it Brian we were having a good debate on the previous thread now you started this one, where do I go!?!? lol

  2. BigBlueAL

    Well really all of our Knicks plans revolved around Lin, not so sure they really revolved around Grunwald’s plans by the looks of it.

  3. BigBlueAL

    I dunno maybe Im just numb to all of this and I still have a little old-school non-statistical analysis fan in me that doesnt see it being so crazy to pass up on paying Lin 25 mil over next 3 years for what little he has done in his NBA career so far.

    I cant imagine not being a Knick fan anymore because of this.

  4. Brian Cronin

    We’re going to have to root for this team? Ugh. I mean, I will, but boy, it will not be nearly as fun (or as rewarding, since the team will be worse) as I hoped.

  5. Brian Cronin

    Marc J. Spears ?@SpearsNBAYahoo
    Rockets found loophole that would cost them $8 million on third year of Lin offer sheet and Knicks $15 million, source tells Y! Sports.

    There’s no “loophole,” that’s just how offer sheets for Gilbert Arenas free agents work. 3 years/$25 million for the Rockets is roughly $8 million a year for the Rockets while it is $5/$5/$15 for the Knicks.

  6. Gamecockerbocker

    James Dolan has to step in here and slap Grunwald with a pillow case full of solid gold bars or something, right? RIGHT?

  7. bockadoo

    maybe if we lose him, everybody else will be so focused and bust their asses to prove they didn’t need him. i still think we’ll match though.

  8. Brian Cronin

    James Dolan has to step in here and slap Grunwald with a pillow case full of solid gold bars or something, right? RIGHT?

    If they don’t match, there’s a 100% chance it is a decision by Dolan. It’s his money they’d be spending by the boatload if they match.

  9. BigBlueAL

    Gamecockerbocker:
    James Dolan has to step in here and slap Grunwald with a pillow case full of solid gold bars or something, right? RIGHT?

    Im pretty sure Dolan is encouraging not matching the contract. A decision like this has to ultimately be his.

  10. steveoh

    I’m not so sure that Raymond Felton is an either/or with Jeremy Lin. The plan could also be using Jason Kidd at the two with Felton and Lin at the point (and Prigoni).

    Remember, we don’t have another 2-guard yet. And by the time Shumpert comes back, we’ll have an idea about Lin or Felton. It’s hedging our bets. Kidd’s too old to man the position full-time.

    Lin actually has a great contract. $10 for 2 years is just about right for someone of Lin’s track record. If he pans out, that $15,000,000 in the third year is still high but tolerable (along with the luxury tax). If he doesn’t, that expiring contract is a huge trade chip.

    As contracts go, it’d be silly not to re-sign him.

  11. Gamecockerbocker

    Brian Cronin: If they don’t match, there’s a 100% chance it is a decision by Dolan. It’s his money they’d be spending by the boatload if they match.

    All I’ve heard is how the Luxury tax doesn’t matter to him because of all the money Lin would make Dolan in stocks and marketing and all that madness, though.

  12. ess-dog

    Yeah I could see us still matching Lin after the Felton trade. Grunwald must be following the David Kahn point guard domination plan.

  13. Z-man

    Z-man: Look, Lin is far from a sure thing. There are many unanswered questions about him. Can he last 82 games? Can he adapt now that the league has a book on him, e.g. force him left? Can he shoot better than 32% from 3? Is his knee issue totally resolved? It is the promise of Linsanity, the hope that at last our PG savior is here, those 10 magical games, that would devastate us if Dolan lets him go (make no mistake, this is Dolan’s call.) But it is only a promise, not a reality. This is a HUGE gamble for Dolan, or honestly, any rational businessman, a $50+ million roll of the dice on what may turn out to be a middling, injury-prone PG with serious holes in his game. Is there any concrete reason to believe that Lin will be $50 million better than Prigioni for the next 2 years?I will be distraught if we don’t match Lin, but by no means was I convinced that he was a sure thing.

    Reposting from last thread…it made me feel better to write this.

  14. ess-dog

    And if you look at Jeremy’s Feb. vs. March game logs, he really doesn’t look like the sure bet some people make him out to be.

    Nash would’ve been nice…. friggin cRaptors…..

  15. diehardknickerbocker

    Can’t lin take the first offer the rockets gave him which was for 4yrs? The offer we were expected to match. If he can take that from us still, and doesn’t want to because he can get more money in three yrs instead of 4 proves to me how loyal he is to this organization. We should let him walk n roll the dice with felton. After all he did average 18pts n 8ast with us so with the roster we have shouldnt be no problemo.

  16. ess-dog

    Also, regardless of what you think about Fields now, what a sad end to that story. He went from wonderboy to dud to Canada.

  17. alsep73

    I can see Hahn’s point, which Seth Rosenthal also made. Lin was a 2-guard in college, and is still something of a combo guard now. Kidd played the 2 quite a bit in Dallas recently. Maybe instead of signing a Brewer or Foye or whomever as our stop-gap shooting guard until Shump is back, the plan is to load up on points so that Kidd and/or Lin can slide to the 2 when the second unit’s on the floor.

    If that’s what this is, I’d still probably prefer a more traditional shooting guard, but I at least understand the thinking.

    Getting rid of Lin makes no sense from a standpoint of talent (even in 25 games, he showed he’s probably already better than Felton), marketing/money (the Knicks are much more valuable/popular with Lin on the roster than off), age (this would leave Shump as our only real young piece) and, weirdly, flexibility (since we’re capped out for the next three seasons anyway, he becomes a useful expiring in that third year if he falls off a cliff).

    Even by the Isiah/Layden standards, not matching Lin would be idiotic.

  18. diehardknickerbocker

    Brian Cronin: If they don’t match, there’s a 100% chance it is a decision by Dolan. It’s his money they’d be spending by the boatload if they match.

    exactly how much luxury tax we will pay in year three if we match lin

  19. Brian Cronin

    Also, regardless of what you think about Fields now, what a sad end to that story. He went from wonderboy to dud to Canada.

    I think he’s okay to go from second round pick to making $7 million a year in three years. Meanwhile, he’s going from a coach who doesn’t like him and not starting (for a system he is not suited for) to starting for a team whose system fits his skills well. I dunno about the coach thing. I guess we’ll find out! :)

  20. BigBlueAL

    Brian Cronin: I think he’s okay to go from second round pick to making $7 million a year in three years. Meanwhile, he’s going from a coach who doesn’t like him and not starting (for a system he is not suited for) to starting for a team whose system fits his skills well. I dunno about the coach thing. I guess we’ll find out! :)

    What offensive system is that?? According to BBR the Raptors were 29th in offensive efficiency last season. On second thought you’re right Fields will fit in perfectly in that offense.

  21. Brian Cronin

    exactly how much luxury tax we will pay in year three if we match lin

    I am unsure exactly how much, but at least an extra $20 million on top of Lin’s $15 million salary.

  22. Juwanaxedqwe

    Man, what really sickens me is how Woodson and these “sources” drone on and on, claiming to acquire Lin no matter the cost. Instead we’re given the absolute most anti-climatic alternative in Felton, who I’m sure most of the participants in this forum will agree has already hit his ceiling in terms of his potential.

    The numbers that he managed to put up with the Knicks might have been notable had it translated into actual wins where Amare wasn’t required to post near-Herculean numbers in order for the Knicks to scratch out a win. I don’t remember a single game where Felton was the clearly THE guy that managed to carry Knicks to a win against a team that wasn’t already headed for the lottery.

    I already had serious doubts about this team as assembled without Lin. But to remove Lin, who has yet to prove his usefulness, and replace him some washed-out player who hardly has any noticeable impact in meaningful games?

    If this ultimately goes through, it’ll be damn shame. I’ll probably see you guys in 2015-2016 when we hopefully get to start anew.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnHmskwqCCQ

  23. Z-man

    I don’t feel the least bit bad about Fields. I loved his hustle and intelligence, his boy next door innocence, but ultimately, I never got over how horribly he played vs. Celts in playoffs, and he did nothing this year to help me get over it. If he truly wanted to be part of this, he didn’t need to sign the offer sheet. We would have offered him a very reasonable deal commensurate with his talents. Good luck Landry, I’ll follow your exploits but am glad you have found greener pastures.

  24. Z-man

    Brian Cronin: I am unsure exactly how much, but at least an extra $20 million on top of Lin’s $15 million salary.

    Basically, Dolan would be paying more for him than for Tyson Chandler. That’s hard to take.

  25. Brian Cronin

    What offensive system is that?? According to BBR the Raptors were 29th in offensive efficiency last season. On second thought you’re right Fields will fit in perfectly in that offense.

    They play like the 7 Seconds or Less Suns, with Calderon being a mini (much worse) Nash.

  26. ephus

    diehardknickerbocker: exactly how much luxury tax we will pay in year three if we match lin

    Can’t say precisely because there are too many moving pieces: (1) what will salary cap be, and (2) what will Knicks’ total salary be.

    But if the Knicks ended up $20 million over tax line in 2014-15, they would pay $45 million in tax. The incremental tax on Lin’s $15 million salary would be $37.5 million.

    If the Knicks ended up $25 million over tax line in 2014-15, they would pay $63.75 million in tax. The incremental tax on Lin’s $15 million salary would be $47.5 million.

    Let’s let the dust clear before we all freak out.

  27. Brian Cronin

    Basically, Dolan would be paying more for him than for Tyson Chandler. That’s hard to take.

    Well, he’s also paying Amar’e nearly 50% more than Chandler.

  28. BigBlueAL

    Isola just tweeted:

    The Knicks have acquired Raymond Felton and Kurt Thomas from Portland for Jared Jeffries and Dan Gadzuric, sources tell the Daily News

  29. BigBlueAL

    I expect Houston and Spree to come out of retirement and sign with the Knicks any minute now.

  30. daaarn

    I can’t help but like having Thomas back (assuming they keep him). Brings back some necessary toughness. At this point though, I think they should try coaxing Houston outta retirement. He looked mighty good during All Star Weekend haha.

  31. Z-man

    Brian Cronin: Well, he’s also paying Amar’e nearly 50% more than Chandler.

    Come on, Brian, You’re better than that. Amare was signed before Chandler and had a few more credentials than Lin.

    Compare Lin’s first 25 games as a Knicks starting PG to Felton’s first 25 games. My recollection is that they weren’t that statistically different. Is Lin worth an average of $15 million a year?

  32. BigBlueAL

    At this rate might as well re-hire Jeff Van Gundy, he is perfectly suited to coach this roster.

  33. JK47

    If the Knicks do not re-sign Lin and instead go with the fat, talentless Ray Felton and 50-year old Jason Kidd at the point, well thn they will truly deserve the laughing stock status that will be heaped on them.

    I’ll be choosing whether to root for the Lakers or Clippers.

  34. Brian Cronin

    Is Lin worth an average of $15 million a year?

    It’s not an average. It’s an average of $8.3 million. Next year, Lin would make $5 million for the Knicks.

  35. jon abbey

    hahaha, Kurt Thomas.

    I love that Fields is gone, and I don’t believe NY won’t match on Lin.

  36. daaarn

    BigBlueAL:
    At this rate might as well re-hire Jeff Van Gundy, he is perfectly suited to coach this roster.

    Might as well sign Junior too, to have a Ewing on the bench for good luck haha.

  37. jon abbey

    theone811:
    Do we actually know what the hell we are doing ?

    Let’s give Grunwald the benefit of the doubt for now, he has been pretty close to perfect since taking over.

  38. Z-man

    ephus: If the Knicks ended up $25 million over tax line in 2014-15, they would pay $63.75 million in tax. The incremental tax on Lin’s $15 million salary would be $47.5 million.

    Brian, Lin would potentially cost Dolan $25 million in salary plus $37.5-$47.5 million in luxury tax. That is $62.5-$72.5 million in three years. You do the math. It’s not just about the salary cap. Is this a good business decision, based on who Lin is at this point? Imagine if Dolan paid that for Landry Fields, the next John Havlicek, after his first 25 games.

  39. BigBlueAL

    Whoa, Berman just tweeted:

    Another source insists #Knicks won’t match Lin’s offer sheet.

  40. diehardknickerbocker

    daaarn:
    I can’t help but like having Thomas back (assuming they keep him). Brings back some necessary toughness. At this point though, I think they should try coaxing Houston outta retirement. He looked mighty good during All Star Weekend haha.

    HE SHOULD GO SEE THEM DOCTERS KOBE WENT TO

  41. jon abbey

    Yeah, I don’t think not matching on Lin would be the end of the world, I don’t think his style of play fits the rest of the team especially well.

  42. Z-man

    As a fan, I want Lin back, but I totally get the logic in letting him go to Houston. As with Landry, he didn’t have to sign the offer sheet if he truly wanted to stay. He backed out of the USA Select team so that we couldn’t see how his knee has recovered. Lin hasn’t been an angel in this situation. For all my issues with JR, He wanted to be here way more than Lin.

  43. d-mar

    If we can keep Lin and pick up another PG, we can throw out a starting five of all point guards. It would really freak out the other team on defense, although after 40 passes the shot clock would expire.

  44. 2FOR18

    ephus: Can’t say precisely because there are too many moving pieces: (1) what will salary cap be, and (2) what will Knicks’ total salary be.

    But if the Knicks ended up $20 million over tax line in 2014-15, they would pay $45 million in tax.The incremental tax on Lin’s $15 million salary would be $37.5 million.

    If the Knicks ended up $25 million over tax line in 2014-15, they would pay $63.75 million in tax.The incremental tax on Lin’s $15 million salary would be $47.5 million.

    Let’s let the dust clear before we all freak out.

    Sorry, but I am freaking out as a type. They can’t do this to me again.

  45. DRed

    Ray Felton instead of Lin? Is this a fucking joke? It’s like they want me to become a Nets fan.

  46. jon abbey

    from a basketball standpoint, I can see the logic in letting Lin go, but it makes no sense in terms of a business standpoint, I don’t think. I won’t miss the sideshow aspect of him, that’s for sure.

  47. Caleb

    First off I don’t really believe this – we’re just trying to screw with Lin and the Rockets as “revenge” for their jacking up the last offer.

    @55 there’s no logic at all in letting him walk – even if you think it’s overpaying, letting him go doesn’t free up cap space – our only other PG options are guys like Raymond Felton.

  48. jon abbey

    diehardknickerbocker: still should get ronnie brewer to back melo up

    if they got Brewer, I think the team would be very solid:

    Kidd/Felton/Prigioni
    JR Smith/Brewer/Shumpert (hurt, back in Dec/Jan)
    Melo/James White
    Amare/Kurt Thomas
    Chandler/Camby

  49. Loathing

    I dunno…I’m not buying this…it seems like they’re trying to bluff something…but why?

  50. jon abbey

    at least now we know why NY was trying to delay the Houston offer from coming, they wanted to make sure they got this Felton deal done first.

    and before people freak out too much about Lin, his style makes him a constant injury risk, which I was saying before he got hurt this year.

  51. theone811

    We get Felton and ancient Kurt Thomas the nets get cj Watson come on I’m going to the bk and watch some nets game grunwald is in panic mode

  52. jon abbey

    @SpearsNBAYahoo: Blazers will sign guard Raymond Felton to a three-year, $10 million deal, according to a source.

  53. daaarn

    Loathing:
    I dunno…I’m not buying this…it seems like they’re trying to bluff something…but why?

    That’s what I keep thinking too, but I’m pretty sure that’s because I’m in denial. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted. At least it won’t be another decade before we get another playoff win (hopefully).

  54. KnickfaninNJ

    At the rate the Knicks are going they’re going to be trading Frazier and Breen for a journalist to be named later because they don’t want the fans to get to attached to any one Knicks related person.

  55. BigBlueAL

    This site I fear will be real annoying next season. Knicks w/o Lin will still be a pretty good team most likely still winning around 50 games but all we will see is people complaining whenever Lin has a good game even if the Rockets have one of the worst records in the league which will happen if they dont get Howard.

  56. Z-man

    Caleb: First off I don’t really believe this – we’re just trying to screw with Lin and the Rockets as “revenge” for their jacking up the last offer. @55 there’s no logic at all in letting him walk – even if you think it’s overpaying, letting him go doesn’t free up cap space – our only other PG options are guys like Raymond Felton.

    Again, you ignore the implication of the luxury tax…$37-47 million extra out of Dolan’s pocket. Whether you agree with the decdsion or not, it’s far from either “crazy” or “bad business” to let him go, unless you are sure that barring injury he is at worst a top 10-15 PG.

  57. StatsTeacher

    Watching NBATV Wiz vs. Hou, announcers say Lin will be running the point in Houston. That’s idiotic, I am guessing if that happens a lot of the fan base in NYC will go nuts. There is NO WAY I will watch any Knick games with Felton and Kidd running the point, w/ Amare and Melo (!!??) It’s gonna be awful. If this is true, I am a Rockets fan now (along with GS, which is just torture). Oh well, I actually liked the Olajuwon/Sampson finals some years back. We’ll see what really happens.

  58. yellowboy90

    It would be funny if they match Lin and leave Houston without any PG options.

    Also, if they put it out that they will match up to a billion why change now.

  59. MeloDrama

    I trust Grunwald. Don’t trust Dolan.

    My biggest issues if they let them walk…
    #1: This is a hellava time for Dolan to finally exercise fiscal responsibility, not on any of the broken down players of yesteryear but on a guy with real All-Star potential.

    2. It feels to me that if he does walk, it isn’t even so much a financial decision but a panic-snap spite one from Dolan himself. If the plan was to let Lin go, why not attempt a sign and trade with Houston? They’ve got about 10000 useful assets.

    We’ve been signing and trading everywhere else, Grunwald facilitates those things in his sleep, and one of our most tradable assets is now walking for NOTHING?

    Almost feels like even Grunwald was caught off guard by a sudden reversal of position by Dolan. I have no doubt in my mind that if we wanted to not pay Lin, we’d have traded him.

  60. jon abbey

    Z-man: Again, you ignore the implication of the luxury tax…$37-47 million extra out of Dolan’s pocket. Whether you agree with the decdsion or not, it’s far from either “crazy” or “bad business” to let him go, unless you are sure that barring injury he is at worst a top 10-15 PG.

    well, unless he’s pulling in that much, which is quite possible based on the short sample size of last season, but it’s also quite possible that wouldn’t last and they’re selling high.

  61. MeloDrama

    Z-man: Again, you ignore the implication of the luxury tax…$37-47 million extra out of Dolan’s pocket. Whether you agree with the decdsion or not, it’s far from either “crazy” or “bad business” to let him go, unless you are sure that barring injury he is at worst a top 10-15 PG.

    It’s bad business to let Lin go for nothing when everyone on earth believed you’d match an offer. Had they acted before Lin physically signed, they could have gotten a nice haul IMO for a guy with his potential and the marketing-plus.

    I think they’re either screwing with Houston; or Grunwald was told to match Lin by Dolan, then Dolan just said “Nah, let him go.”

  62. Z-man

    jon abbey: well, unless he’s pulling in that much, which is quite possible based on the short sample size of last season, but it’s also quite possible that wouldn’t last and they’re selling high.

    Doesn’t revenue sharing dilute the perceived market value of Lin to Dolan?

  63. Gamecockerbocker

    If they don’t match, “letting the market decide his value” was the dumbest thing the Knicks could’ve done. Make him an offer, if a team ups that offer and you don’t want to match, do a sign and trade. Or is that too simple/not as easy as it sounds?

  64. llcoolbp

    I know I have been hammered on this forum before, but I for one think that Lin is a prima donna. He didn’t step up in the playoffs when we all know he could have helped this team, and was recovered. He has been coy all offseason, and now he will act shocked when the Knicks don’t match. He can take his self righteous ass to Houston, along with his 6 turnovers per game. I grew up in queens and all my best friends growing up were Chinese or Taiwanese. During linsanity some of there mom’s would have linsanity parties. That’s right, 70 year old Asian ladies who never watched basketball would get together to watch. Good luck creating that kind of hype anywhere but new york. Fuck Lin!

  65. Gamecockerbocker

    llcoolbp:
    I know I have been hammered on this forum before, but I for one think that Lin is a prima donna.He didn’t step up in the playoffs when we all know he could have helped this team, and was recovered. He has been coy all offseason, and now he will act shocked when the Knicks don’t match. He can take his self righteous ass to Houston, along with his 6 turnovers per game.I grew up in queens and all my best friends growing up were Chinese or Taiwanese. During linsanity some of there mom’s would have linsanity parties. That’s right, 70 year old Asian ladies who never watched basketball would get together to watch. Good luck creating that kind of hype anywhere but new york.Fuck Lin!

    If there’s anyone who can create that kind of hype for a player of asian decent… it would be the Houston Rockets.

  66. Garson

    Do you guys understand that we just basically let a rookie, who was a top 5 PER rated player for a long enough stretch go? I dont care if it was for a few weeks, he showed his potential and was young, exciting and team first oriented. Can’t believe what’s happening.

  67. JK47

    If you guys think this team is gonna do anything other than suck with Jason Kidd’s carcass and Raymond Felton’s fat ass running the point, you are delusional. The next three years are going to be fucking unwatchable.

    Fuck this team.

  68. Mulligan

    Good god, I will not be able to sleep until this is resolved. Front office is too smart for this to work out with Lin just walking…

  69. BigBlueAL

    Gotta love Isola:

    Sorry to all you “haters” out there but I think what Knicks did tonight makes sense. They are win-now & Lin has zero playoff experience

  70. MeloDrama

    Mulligan:
    Good god, I will not be able to sleep until this is resolved. Front office is too smart for this to work out with Lin just walking…

    Yeah, but the front office’s boss, uh, ain’t.

    Mulligan:
    Good god, I will not be able to sleep until this is resolved. Front office is too smart for this to work out with Lin just walking…

  71. JK47

    Yeah, bring in Ray Felton and every 40-year old still in the NBA so you can “win now.” What a joke.

  72. MeloDrama

    BigBlueAL:
    Gotta love Isola:

    Sorry to all you “haters” out there but I think what Knicks did tonight makes sense. They are win-now & Lin has zero playoff experience

    How many playoff games has Felton started?

  73. Z

    BigBlueAL:
    This site I fear will be real annoying next season.Knicks w/o Lin will still be a pretty good team most likely still winning around 50 games but all we will see is people complaining whenever Lin has a good game even if the Rockets have one of the worst records in the league which will happen if they dont get Howard.

    I promise I won’t be annoying.

    But that’s only because I won’t be following this team anymore.

    I don’t want to be reactive or over dramatic, but I’ve found it really hard to justify spending as much time following this sport lately as I do. Between the lockout, the ref scandal, the Melo trade, the Heat, and the Dolan Decade, I really don’t get the kind of pleasure return on the time investment I’ve put in. I dumped baseball a few years ago. Losing Lin by choice would,I suspect, put the nail in basketball.

    Tennis anyone?

  74. Gamecockerbocker

    BigBlueAL:
    Gotta love Isola:

    Sorry to all you “haters” out there but I think what Knicks did tonight makes sense. They are win-now & Lin has zero playoff experience

    Felton has exactly one playoff win. I agree with Isola, though, massive upgrade if we’re making moves to be better positioned in the playoffs…

  75. K-hab25

    Anyone willing to quit on a team, over a guy with 35 games played in that jersey, wasn’t much of a fan of the team to begin with. Some of you are bigger drama queens than my teenage daughter. I like Lin and hope we match, but if we don’t, I’ll get over it rather quickly. It was 25 starts for F’s sake!!

  76. MeloDrama

    K-hab25:
    Anyone willing to quit on a team, over a guy with 35 games played in that jersey, wasn’t much of a fan of the team to begin with. Some of you are bigger drama queens than my teenage daughter. I like Lin and hope we match, but if we don’t, I’ll get over it rather quickly. It was 25 starts for F’s sake!!

    K-hab25:

    I hear you. But it’s not just losing Lin; it’s losing Lin for nothing, in a year where you caught a break by a rule change allowing you to keep him, keyed by an owner who has never taken issue with paying tax and, in fact, counts that as his only redeeming quality in that position.

    Again: Grunwald gets something for everyone. If this report is legit, you expect me to believe that Dolan didn’t blindside him and muck this up? Jeremy Lin – one of the biggest breakout stars in recent memory – leaves for not even the 12th man on the Rockets bench, after the Knicks knew about this offer sheet for over a week?

  77. Gamecockerbocker

    K-hab25:
    Anyone willing to quit on a team, over a guy with 35 games played in that jersey, wasn’t much of a fan of the team to begin with. Some of you are bigger drama queens than my teenage daughter. I like Lin and hope we match, but if we don’t, I’ll get over it rather quickly. It was 25 starts for F’s sake!!

    I think for many, Lin leaving for nothing would just be the rotten cherry on top of the rotting shit of a cake that has been NY Knicks basketball for the past decade +

  78. formido

    If the Knicks let Lin walk, Morey is a genius. By setting up an expectation they’d be facing a nice reasonable offer sheet, he was then able to emotionally sucker punch them. Dolan strikes me as the type of person who can be influenced this way.

  79. Z

    Scorpio Dragon:
    This has to be a poker game.Has to be, letting the marketing bonanza that is Lin go for Raymond Felton is foolish.

    Someone did mention that MSG stock has gained $600,000,000 in market cap since Lin’s first start… (but I guess it all has to be liquidated to pay for the luxury tax)

  80. Mulligan

    We’re talking about 1 bad year on a 3 year deal. Makes zero sense not to match. We had a decade of epic horrible deals. What about Marbury, Francis, Randolph, etc?

  81. Brian Cronin

    Yeah, it just doesn’t make logical sense to say that you’ll let the market set Lin’s salary and then get pissed when the market…sets Lin’s salary?!? If they weren’t sure about keeping Lin, then try to get him to agree to a sign and trade. Can you imagine how much the Knicks could get in a sign and trade for Jeremy freakin’ Lin? That they didn’t makes this seem just too stupid to actually happen. So I am still holding out hope.

  82. formido

    Yes. And they looked uncompetitive against Miami. And they were 7-1 with Lin under Woodson.

    K-hab25:
    Weren’t the Knicks 18-6 under Woodson, without Lin?

  83. Z

    I like how this entire week we’ve spent discussing whether Dolan would pay the tax to match Fields. But Lin?!? Come on. (maybe the NY med staff knows that Lin will never walk again, let alone dribble…)

  84. MeloDrama

    Right, and they went out easy in round 1, partially because Lin and all other PGs were hurt. We all had the reasonable expectation that with his return, they could build upon their finish when Lin and co came back healthy.

    Losing him for nothing is just indefensible.

  85. MeloDrama

    formido:
    If the Knicks let Lin walk, Morey is a genius. By setting up an expectation they’d be facing a nice reasonable offer sheet, he was then able to emotionally sucker punch them. Dolan strikes me as the type of person who can be influenced this way.

    Yup. Throw something crazy at Dolan and hope he Dolans.

  86. jaredrutledge

    i’ve been a knicks fan for 15 years. i fell in love with them at the tender age of 13 when jeff van gundy took a ride on alonzo mourning’s shoe. when jeremy lin was carving up the lakers in february, it was the most excitement i’d felt about knicks ball since LJ’s four point play – i was screaming, elated, and in awe. for dolan to throw that experience away (despite six hundred million apparent reasons not to do so) would be the final nail in the coffin of his inept reign.

    i’m sitting here talking myself into the bobcats and MKG. sad.

  87. JK47

    The only chance this team had to win Jack shit over the next three years was for the obviously talented Lin to emerge as a star. There is no other way to add talent to the mediocre core of “stars” the Knicks have assembled.

    This team will win 40-45 games for the next three years with no possibility of winning a playoff series and have traded away every draft pick they can possibly trade. What happens the season after this one when Kidd is ANOTHER year older and Amar’e’s body has another year of wear and tear on it?

    Hope just walked out the door, my friends.

  88. K-hab25

    formido:
    Yes. And they looked uncompetitive against Miami. And they were 7-1 with Lin under Woodson.

    Jeremy got hurt on March 6th, Woodson took over March 14th. Lin did not play under Woodson, well as head coach. As far as Miami goes, they’re the best team in the league and if you aren’t healthy and playing your A game, you have no shot. No matter who you are.

  89. Brian Cronin

    Jeremy got hurt on March 6th, Woodson took over March 14th. Lin did not play under Woodson, well as head coach. As far as Miami goes, they’re the best team in the league and if you aren’t healthy and playing your A game, you have no shot. No matter who you are.

    So you’re saying he was playing hurt? He was hurt before the March 24th game? Well, it that’s true, then he was playing well hurt and the Knicks looked amazing.

  90. Juwanaxedqwe

    K-hab25:
    Weren’t the Knicks 18-6 under Woodson, without Lin?

    The same Knicks that were bounced out of the playoffs like a ragdoll by the Heat?

    Do you really think a 39 year-old PG, whose primary objective at his age is, according to him, to help mentor and encourage the team is going to help make the Knicks get past the likes of the Heat, Celtics, or the Bulls?

    Are two additional 39 year-old Centers supposed to bolster the defense of a team, whose actual problem is simply being able to generate efficient points in a game, without resorting to iso-ball?

    Raymond Felton? At least with Lin, there was still the possibility that he could make enough improvements in his game to be a really capable starter.

    Sure, this team might not be worse off without Lin; but they sure as hell will never be better than a 4-seed in this conference.

  91. MeloDrama

    So they took the offer sheet, finally, as soon as the Felton deal was done.

    Not a good sign, friends.

  92. Will the Thrill

    Do you watch the games? How can you think he didn’t play under Woodson lol

    K-hab25: Jeremy got hurt on March 6th, Woodson took over March 14th. Lin did not play under Woodson, well as head coach. As far as Miami goes, they’re the best team in the league and if you aren’t healthy and playing your A game, you have no shot. No matter who you are.

  93. DRed

    jon abbey:
    from a basketball standpoint, I can see the logic in letting Lin go, but it makes no sense in terms of a business standpoint, I don’t think. I won’t miss the sideshow aspect of him, that’s for sure.

    How the hell does letting a good young player go while replacing him with an older, worse player make sense from a basketball standpoint? The only way this makes sense is from a Jimmy Dolan is a fucking idiot standpoint

  94. Garson

    Chalk one more win for melo

    Killed fields game
    Killed a mares swag
    Killed da nToni
    Now officially killed of insanity…. No way he’s sad to see him go after that comment that he should back up Kidd.

  95. BigBlueAL

    Guys, they arent letting Lin go (if they do let him go) because they dont think he is good. This is strictly (surprisingly) a monetary issue.

  96. Z

    Knicks ended the season 12-5 (13-9 counting the playoffs) without Lin (and Amar’e for most of that time, too)

  97. massive

    The Knicks have to match on Lin’s offer sheet. They just have to. If they don’t, then I will always hate the Rockets and Morey.

  98. K-hab25

    I apologise guys, I just googled Lin gets hurt and the article said he was injured on March 6th.

  99. JK47

    This team will never win anything for the rest of eternity. Only a masochist could root for this sad sack franchise.

    Ray Felton. Seriously. Ray. Felton. Why not just come to my house and personally kick me in the balls.

  100. Brian Cronin

    The Berger piece was terrible.

    With a top-heavy payroll in a soon-to-be tax-heavy world, the Knicks have a very small window of time to compete for a championship. They are in win-now mode, and they can’t worry about anything other than putting the most competitive team possible on the floor.

    Soooo…they….then don’t put their most competitive team possible on the floor? And you’re agreeing with that? Oooookay, Ken.

  101. Z

    BigBlueAL: It’s OK, Z can steal my material :-)

    Somehow I missed last thread :) (I didn’t even know there was a last thread (or a summer league game today)– I guess the news of the moment has eclipsed everything else in Knickland).

    Gotta laugh to keep from crying…

  102. K-hab25

    I may be being naive or just optimistic, but I still think they’re going to match on Lin’s contract. People should probably save the flipping out for when they don’t match, if they don’t. This just seams like the media stirring s**t up.

  103. njasdjdh

    DRed: How the hell does letting a good young player go while replacing him with an older, worse player make sense from a basketball standpoint?The only way this makes sense is from a Jimmy Dolan is a fucking idiot standpoint

    This. So much this.

  104. max fisher-cohen

    I see no point to playing poker. What could be the point? To alienate Lin? Is this like those “psych!” jokes that we used to play in 4th grade where you say stuff like, “There’s a giant bug on your back!…. Psych!”

    Lin’s floor is Raymond Felton. Lin doesn’t fit this team? Well, he thrives in the exact same sort of game Felton does — uptempo as the primary creator. Like Felton, his main weaknesses are a mediocre jump shot and sometimes questionable decision-making. However, he’s freakin’ 5 years younger and at his best was way better than Felton ever was even at Felton’s peak early on in D’Antoni’s offense. Felton’s career path is closer in trajectory to Chris Duhon’s than Jeremy Lin’s.

    As far as the battle-tested BS, with all the acquisitions of washed up vets, we will have exactly two rings on the team, both the ex-Mavs, and one is already in serious decline.

    In regard to the “it was only 25 games thing,” Kyrie Irving played all of 11 games in COLLEGE, and that was enough for him to be the #1 overall pick. In Lin you have a guy who proved to be a quality starter and showed flashes of being a potential star in 25 starts in the NBA. If god came down and decreed that Jeremy Lin would be in the 2012 NBA draft this year, he would have been an easy #2 pick. Here we have the opportunity to sign him for a couple million more/year than what his a #2 pick would make on a rookie scale deal, and we balk?

    And lastly, in regard to his potential injury issues, players tend to adapt. Chris Paul attacked the rim like crazy early on, learned it would shorten his career, and adapted.

    If this really happens — if hte Knicks let Lin go — it will be all Dolan and his determination to only see Knick players succeed if their acquisition had the Dolan stamp on it. He’s the only one whose ego is more important than winning and money (because even if Lin ended up only average, he’d still pay for his contract with all the jersey sales).

  105. Brian Cronin

    I dunno, while I think letting Lin go would be terrible and I agree that it would essentially keep the Knicks from having any legitimate shot at being a realistic title contender next season (and unless they can somehow make some amazing trade the following year, then the second and third season, as well), I get the fact that we can’t tell a guy to spend a gazillion dollars for a player who might not be great. It is not committing to putting out the best team he possibly can, but at the end of the day, it’s his money. If he doesn’t want to spend it, then fair enough, I guess.

  106. KnicksFanInVA

    After Eddy Curry, Jerome James, Jamal Crawford, Steve Francis, Zach Randolph, Dolan is showing financial restraint??? Give me a fucking break. This is pathetic.

  107. BigBlueAL

    Brian Cronin:
    Hey Al, I thought you’d appreciate the headline I did over at Replacement Level Yankee Weblog for today’s Yankee win, Yankees Greatly Reduce Odds of Getting Swept at Home This Weekend. :)

    Halo’s Heaven would approve lol

    They tweeted this earlier today (saw it cause one of the RAB writers RT’ed it):

    “The saddest part about losing two straight to the Yankees is how old and tired this year’s version of the bombers appears.”

    Thats why all they do is hit HR’s I guess since they are old and tired therefore dont like to run the bases they prefer to jog them.

  108. DRed

    Brian Cronin:
    I dunno, while I think letting Lin go would be terrible and I agree that it would essentially keep the Knicks from having any legitimate shot at being a realistic title contender next season (and unless they can somehow make some amazing trade the following year, then the second and third season, as well), I get the fact that we can’t tell a guy to spend a gazillion dollars for a player who might not be great. It is not committing to putting out the best team he possibly can, but at the end of the day, it’s his money. If he doesn’t want to spend it, then fair enough, I guess.

    He’s already spent a lot of money on players who had no chance of being great (Eddy Curry, I’m looking at you). Having a team you follow be owned by a spoiled moron is terrible. This idiot spent a ton of money on Marbury and Zeke, laughed along with those clowns during their sexual harassment disgrace, and now expects me to spend my money following his team? Fuck him.

  109. MeloDrama

    Brian Cronin:
    I dunno, while I think letting Lin go would be terrible and I agree that it would essentially keep the Knicks from having any legitimate shot at being a realistic title contender next season (and unless they can somehow make some amazing trade the following year, then the second and third season, as well), I get the fact that we can’t tell a guy to spend a gazillion dollars for a player who might not be great. It is not committing to putting out the best team he possibly can, but at the end of the day, it’s his money. If he doesn’t want to spend it, then fair enough, I guess.

    Then let your GM know you’re not willing to do this in enough time to actually get something for a very valuable asset. If this isn’t posturing, then you’ll never convince me that this isn’t Dolan mismanagement yet again. If Grunwald knows we can’t afford to keep Lin, then we’re getting some assets back for him.

  110. BigBlueAL

    The Yankees want to get their payroll down to 189 mil for the 2014 season to avoid paying massive luxery taxes and now Dolan is appearing to do the same by not wanting to re-sign Lin. What world are we living in now??

  111. Will the Thrill

    If we are in “win-now” mode, then wouldn’t the money matter even less for Lin? Shouldn’t we just be trying to put the best players on the floor for the next 3 years? So frustrating… This team is going to have MAJOR problems penetrating, and probably alot of Melo/Woodson ball. We are pretty much gearing our team for a heavily iso-based offense if they don’t keep Lin and without the plethora of shooters you need for such an offense. Basically we will have the same team as last year, with a couple minor improvements (but keep in mind, Lin was the only reason we even made playoffs last year).

  112. steveoh

    The upside that this team has, the only upside really, is how much Lin improves with Jason Kidd’s mentorship.

    If he doesn’t improve from the way he played during his 7 game run with Woodson, fine. That works. We won’t win anything big.

    But if he improves, we may have a star and a big chance.

    There is no upside to Felton. His upside is bound by his expanding waistline. We’ve seen his best. It’s not good enough.

    Whoever said that Lin’s floor is Felton’s ceiling nailed it.

    The Knicks have to know this. Grunwald and Dolan have to understand this.

  113. Brian Cronin

    Halo’s Heaven would approve lol

    They tweeted this earlier today (saw it cause one of the RAB writers RT’ed it):

    “The saddest part about losing two straight to the Yankees is how old and tired this year’s version of the bombers appears.”

    Thats why all they do is hit HR’s I guess since they are old and tired therefore dont like to run the bases they prefer to jog them.

    Even the Yankees.com story was all about how the Yankees versus the Angels is all youth versus age. The Angels have, like, three young guys! Yes, they happen to be three very exciting guys and all three of them were All-Star worthy (and Trout might be an MVP) but the notion that the Angels are a young team is laughable. As if Cano were ancient.

    In NBA news, I keep seeing writers say teams are worried about the “long term cost” of signing Luis Scola. Seriously? Three years/$10 million is too much for you?!? Huh?!!? Luis Scola at $10 million for three years is a steal!

  114. YJK2011

    Ray Felton will be awesome with the Knicks just like he was 2 years ago. He did get fat in Portland but he was playing great for the Knicks when he got traded and will mesh well with Chandler, Melo, Stat, Novak just as he did with Mozgov, Gallo, Wilson Chandler and Stat a few years ago. His numbers in his first 25 games were as good as Lin’s and he is more of a prototypical point guard who doesn’t need to shoot to be effective.

    As Knicks fans we are usually cynical of management and Dolan throwing around cash but I really think Grunwald has earned our trust and we will have a team to be proud of the team we put on the court whether we match Lin or not.

  115. 2FOR18

    Will the Thrill:
    If we are in “win-now” mode, then wouldn’t the money matter even less for Lin? Shouldn’t we just be trying to put the best players on the floor for the next 3 years? So frustrating… This team is going to have MAJOR problems penetrating, and probably alot of Melo/Woodson ball. We are pretty much gearing our team for a heavily iso-based offense if they don’t keep Lin and without the plethora of shooters you need for such an offense.Basically we will have the same team as last year, with a couple minor improvements (but keep in mind, Lin was the only reason we even made playoffs last year).

    Yep. Welcome to the NY Hawks.

  116. massive

    It makes no sense that the Knicks don’t match Lin’s contract. Absolutely none. Prigioni, Felton, and Kidd aren’t good enough to keep him off the team. If anything, our starting 5 next season will be Kidd, Lin, Melo, Stat, and Chandler with Felton as the primary back-up. I remember reading a tweet that said Shumpert told Clyde that he wouldn’t be ready by January 1st. And we can always trade one of Felton or Kidd if need be.

    Lin is still a Knick, IMO.

  117. DRed

    YJK2011:
    Ray Felton will be awesome with the Knicks just like he was 2 years ago.He did get fat in Portland but he was playing great for the Knicks when he got traded and will mesh well with Chandler, Melo, Stat, Novak just as he did with Mozgov, Gallo, Wilson Chandler and Stat a few years ago.His numbers in his first 25 games were as good as Lin’s and he is more of a prototypical point guard who doesn’t need to shoot to be effective.

    As Knicks fans we are usually cynical of management and Dolan throwing around cash but I really think Grunwald has earned our trust and we will have a team to be proud of the team we put on the court whether we match Lin or not.

    Grunwald is trustworthy, but this team is still owned by Jimmy Dolan.

  118. KnicksFanInVA

    Maybe Lin actually doesn’t want to be here? Maybe he wants to be the alpha dog in Houston?

  119. massive

    And I don’t wanna hear anything about Dolan being cheap. He can just raise ticket prices again, NY always sells out.

  120. Brian Cronin

    Worst part is this could drag on until Tues night.

    While I am very unsure of how this plays out, what I am sure of is that we will know the Knicks’ plans by then. Thankfully. It’d be excruciating otherwise.

  121. Will the Thrill

    I actually think I would rather have Jared Jeffries than Ray Felton + Kurt Thomas, even if we don’t keep Lin lol

  122. massive

    The Pacers match a max deal for Hibbert.
    The Hornets match a max offer for Gordon.
    Brook freaking Lopez gets a max deal from the Nets.

    We don’t match that offer sheet after Woodson affirmed that Lin will be our starting PG, and that we’d match any offer sheet up to a billion dollars? It doesn’t make any sense. We will match the offer sheet.

  123. YJK2011

    DRed: Grunwald is trustworthy, but this team is still owned by Jimmy Dolan.

    But Dolan doesn’t make basketball decisions, he’s known for giving his basketball people a lot of leeway and stays out of judging talent. The most I can see him meddling in this decision would be to ask Grunwald if he thinks Lin will be worth $15 million x 2.5 ever. As much as we all loved Lin, I don’t think his ceiling in the new CBA is even the salary before the tax.

  124. jon abbey

    MeloDrama: Then let your GM know you’re not willing to do this in enough time to actually get something for a very valuable asset. If this isn’t posturing, then you’ll never convince me that this isn’t Dolan mismanagement yet again. If Grunwald knows we can’t afford to keep Lin, then we’re getting some assets back for him.

    except they changed the offer sheet at the last minute, so it’s quite possible NY planned to match the original and is less than thrilled about matching the revised version, understandably.

  125. YJK2011

    massive:
    The Pacers match a max deal for Hibbert.
    The Hornets match a max offer for Gordon.
    Brook freaking Lopez gets a max deal from the Nets.

    We don’t match that offer sheet after Woodson affirmed that Lin will be our starting PG, and that we’d match any offer sheet up to a billion dollars? It doesn’t make any sense. We will match the offer sheet.

    Woodson had to affirm it because that’s what he believed. You really believed the Knicks would match any deal? Lin is not a max player (on the court at least).

  126. jon abbey

    Brian Cronin: While I am very unsure of how this plays out, what I am sure of is that we will know the Knicks’ plans by then. Thankfully. It’d be excruciating otherwise.

    we’ll see, I don’t think they know their plans currently.

  127. njasdjdh

    I wonder if the people who say Felton is a better “fit” (ha!) than Lin realize Felton shot 13.9 per 36 while a Knick and a clear secondary option while Lin shot 14.7 per 36 while playing as the primary option for probably more than half his minutes. It seems to me this perception is based more on Amar’e being terrible last year and good the year before than it does with anything about their games and unless you believe that Felton is a good doctor who’s going to fix Amar’e…idk.

  128. jon abbey

    DRed:
    I am happy that Kurt Thomas is back.If this was 1999 again I’d be optimistic.

    Kidd was first-team all-NBA in 1999, unfortunately Melo was only 15 and Amare only 17.

  129. SharKuz

    K-hab25:
    Anyone willing to quit on a team, over a guy with 35 games played in that jersey, wasn’t much of a fan of the team to begin with. Some of you are bigger drama queens than my teenage daughter. I like Lin and hope we match, but if we don’t, I’ll get over it rather quickly. It was 25 starts for F’s sake!!

    I doubt that people are jumping ship over just this mistake. This has been 12 years of making THIS mistake over and over again. There is a reason this team never wins. And like the other poster said, at some point you stop getting the joy out of it. It’s just not fun anymore after all these years because we all know that we are going to squander any opportunity to win. Personally for me I had kind of though that those days might be behind us, but this reinforces the need to just move on. And if moving on after 25 years of suffering means I’m not as much of a fan well then so be it.

  130. DRed

    jon abbey: Kidd was first-team all-NBA in 1999, unfortunately Melo was only 15 and Amare only 17.

    I’d take 17 year old Amare over the current version in a heartbeat.

  131. Garson

    Knowing Dolan , I can see him matching , and benching Lin for the next 3 years as punishment for this offer sheet debacle. Stupid stupid man.

  132. YJK2011

    The Knicks were all set to match Lin’s original offer sheet of four years, $28.9 million that only had a 19 million guarantee before the Rockets threw a financial curveball that called for a $15 million third year that would have doomed James Dolan’s luxury-tax predicament.

    If Lin made $14.9 million in 2014-15, the Knicks payroll, potentially eight players, could be $87 million — or as much as $17 million over the luxury tax threshold. They would have to spend $2.50 in taxes for that $17 million

    Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/knicks_looking_at_felton_after_rockets_YuDmvTA0PshfWIDvWn1bSN#ixzz20fGow6s4

  133. SeeWhyDee77

    Whoa..honestly yal..I have no problem if we don’t match Lin’s offer becuz thas a helluva pill 2 swallow in that last year. But let me say this: Felton’s a fine player but Lin’s better. He’s younger and he seems 2 work harder. But nearly 15 mil in year 3 is a lil steep. It sucks 2 lose him but at the price we would be payin Felton..we’re not losin much. Skill for skill..the talend discrepancy is not far off. My biggest problem is in the trade we jus got dumb old. Essentially swapping a 23 year old for a 28 year old and a 39 year old (welcome home Kurt!!). Grunny BETTER talk Houston into a deal an get back assets for Lin. Their cupboard is pretty bare but I’d ask for a future 1st along with one of those young forwards or better yet a swap of Stat, Lin and Earl for Martin, Morris an cap fodder. Especially if it looks like they won’t land Howard

  134. YJK2011

    SharKuz: I doubt that people are jumping ship over just this mistake. This has been 12 years of making THIS mistake over and over again. There is a reason this team never wins. And like the other poster said, at some point you stop getting the joy out of it. It’s just not fun anymore after all these years because we all know that we are going to squander any opportunity to win. Personally for me I had kind of though that those days might be behind us, but this reinforces the need to just move on. And if moving on after 25 years of suffering means I’m not as much of a fan well then so be it.

    I think you are reacting to the wrong decision. The mess we used to make was overpaying. If the Knicks window to win is really three years, Lin is not worth it even if you think he is better than Felton.

  135. daaarn

    I can’t see why the Knicks wouldn’t match. If they’re in win now mode there really isn’t a reason to skimp on paying. I mean, worse case scenario, they sign Lin for $5 million each for 2 years, then they have a helluva trade chip that third year. Seriously, if they don’t re-sign him, they’re just idiots.

  136. Brian Cronin

    If the Knicks window to win is really three years, Lin is not worth it even if you think he is better than Felton.

    If the window is three years, then how is Lin not worth it if you think he is better than Felton? Especially if you think he’s a lot better than Felton? The “three-year window” thing is the exact opposite of any argument not to sign Lin, which is why I can’t see why Berger tried to argue it.

  137. diehardknickerbocker

    i think they want both of them n jason kidd at the two sometimes till shump comes back

  138. SharKuz

    YJK2011: I think you are reacting to the wrong decision.The mess we used to make was overpaying.If the Knicks window to win is really three years, Lin is not worth it even if you think he is better than Felton.

    We will be over the tax line for the next 3 years with or without Lin, so getting players will be at a minimum challenging. So if we are already going to be over the line, with hardly a chance at getting new players then it makes no sense to let good promising players go when you can avoid it. It also doesn’t hurt you to gamble on him and match. If he leaves for nothing we really don’t benefit, and if he stays and doesn’t work out so what?

  139. SharKuz

    YJK2011: I think you are reacting to the wrong decision.The mess we used to make was overpaying.If the Knicks window to win is really three years, Lin is not worth it even if you think he is better than Felton.

    And overpaying Felton and letting Lin go makes it ten times worse.

  140. DRed

    I understand the tax problems, but they’re THREE YEARS from now. We can certainly dump salary in the interim. Not matching Lin’s offer makes absolutely no sense.

  141. MeloDrama

    YJK2011: But Dolan doesn’t make basketball decisions, he’s known for giving his basketball people a lot of leeway and stays out of judging talent.The most I can see him meddling in this decision would be to ask Grunwald if he thinks Lin will be worth $15 million x 2.5 ever.As much as we all loved Lin, I don’t think his ceiling in the new CBA is even the salary before the tax.

    Didn’t Dolan “make the call” to give up the entire house for Carmelo?

    He has a knack for staying out of things, except for the times that you really, REALLY need him to stay out of things.

  142. jon abbey

    daaarn:
    I mean, worse case scenario, they sign Lin for $5 million each for 2 years, then they have a helluva trade chip that third year.

    well, no, the worst case scenario is that Lin isn’t as good as he looked during Linsanity and gets hurt constantly and you have a guy with no trade value that third year. someone who’s more of a cap expert can correct me if I’m wrong, but it doesn’t seem like expiring deals have much value anymore.

  143. diehardknickerbocker

    Brian Cronin:
    Yeah, it just doesn’t make logical sense to say that you’ll let the market set Lin’s salary and then get pissed when the market…sets Lin’s salary?!? If they weren’t sure about keeping Lin, then try to get him to agree to a sign and trade. Can you imagine how much the Knicks could get in a sign and trade for Jeremy freakin’ Lin? That they didn’t makes this seem just too stupid to actually happen. So I am still holding out hope.

    sign n trade to toronto be good. we can get kyle lowry n demar derozen n first round draft pick. also lowry is a decent defender n derozen is excellent behind melo

  144. diehardknickerbocker

    diehardknickerbocker: sign n trade to toronto be good. we can get kyle lowry n demar derozen n first round draft pick. also lowry is a decent defender n derozen is excellent behind melo

    can that work

  145. Loathing

    I dunno…is it me or does this look like the Knicks making sure they have plenty of PG depth? I still think they match Lin, and he starts at the 2 alongside Kidd. But that’s just me.

  146. jon abbey

    you can’t sign and trade once an offer sheet is signed, no sign and trade with Lin is happening.

    did Prigioni actually sign his deal already? if NY does match on Lin, I can’t imagine Prigioni will be too happy about being fourth string PG.

  147. Z

    YJK2011:
    The Knicks were all set to match Lin’s original offer sheet of four years, $28.9 million that only had a 19 million guarantee before the Rockets threw a financial curveball that called for a $15 million third year that would have doomed James Dolan’s luxury-tax predicament.

    If Lin made $14.9 million in 2014-15, the Knicks payroll, potentially eight players, could be $87 million — or as much as $17 million over the luxury tax threshold. They would have to spend $2.50 in taxes for that $17 million

    Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/knicks_looking_at_felton_after_rockets_YuDmvTA0PshfWIDvWn1bSN#ixzz20fGow6s4

    This bears repeating:

    Dolan paid $37,000,000 in taxes alone for 23 wins in 2006
    Dolan paid $45,000,000 in taxes alone for 33 wins in 2007
    Dolan paid Larry Brown $40,000,000 to not coach the Knicks
    Dolan once paid $30,000,000 to acquire the 20th pick in ’96 (

    Dolan was fine to pay $13,000,000 in taxes on Zach Randolph’s contract… But not on Jeremy “MSG still owes me my bonus on the $600,000,000 I made them this year” Lin?

    It makes 0 sense that Dolan is suddenly tightening his purse straps– perhaps for Fields, yes, I get it, the rate of return is tiny in his case. But Lin has already paid for his own contract, no matter what the ultimate price turns out to be. It seems like the reporters should no better. (but I guess reasonable deliberation doesn’t get retweeted as much as pandemonium).

  148. YJK2011

    SharKuz: And overpaying Felton and letting Lin go makes it ten times worse.

    I’m pretty sure they didn’t overpay Felton and I they may make you feel better and sign Lin.

  149. jon abbey

    Loathing:
    I dunno…is it me or does this look like the Knicks making sure they have plenty of PG depth? I still think they match Lin, and he starts at the 2 alongside Kidd. But that’s just me.

    it does seem like they could decide to play small, Smith getting some minutes as backup SF.

  150. YJK2011

    MeloDrama: Didn’t Dolan “make the call” to give up the entire house for Carmelo?

    He has a knack for staying out of things, except for the times that you really, REALLY need him to stay out of things.

    That’s my point, this doesn’t seem like a Dolan call. It seems like a Grunwald call.

  151. YJK2011

    Z: This bears repeating:

    Dolan paid $37,000,000 in taxes alone for 23 wins in 2006
    Dolan paid $45,000,000 in taxes alone for 33 wins in 2007
    Dolan paid Larry Brown $40,000,000 to not coach the Knicks
    Dolan once paid $30,000,000 to acquire the 20th pick in ’96 (

    Dolan was fine to pay $13,000,000 in taxes on Zach Randolph’s contract… But not on Jeremy “MSG still owes me my bonus on the $600,000,000 I made them this year” Lin?

    It makes 0 sense that Dolan is suddenly tightening his purse straps– perhaps for Fields, yes, I get it, the rate of return is tiny in his case. But Lin has already paid for his own contract, no matter what the ultimate price turns out to be. It seems like the reporters should no better. (but I guess reasonable deliberation doesn’t get retweeted as much as pandemonium).

    I think signing Lin would be a Dolan call. Maneuvering to get a cheaper starting point guard seems more like a Grunwald move. I think Felton, Kidd are better than last year’s combo of BD, Bibby, Lin

  152. jon abbey

    good luck to Woodson keeping all of these guys happy with minutes this year, that’s not going to be easy. if they keep Lin:

    Lin (28), Kidd (24), Felton (18)
    Smith (26)
    Melo (36), White (12)
    Amare (34), Thomas (12)
    Chandler (30), Camby (20)

    that’s not bad, but once Shumpert gets back, good luck carving out 30 minutes for him there if everyone else is healthy. that also assumes no Prigioni, and no additional SG (still hoping for Brewer).

  153. YJK2011

    jon abbey:
    good luck to Woodson keeping all of these guys happy with minutes this year, that’s not going to be easy. if they keep Lin:

    Lin (28), Kidd (24), Felton (18)
    Smith (26)
    Melo (36), White (12)
    Amare (34), Thomas (12)
    Chandler (30), Camby (20)

    that’s not bad, but once Shumpert gets back, good luck carving out 30 minutes for him there if everyone else is healthy. that also assumes no Prigioni, and no additional SG (still hoping for Brewer).

    No one on that second unit expects to play more than 20 minutes. Kidd and Camby have both already affirmed that so I doubt if Kurt Thomas will complain about minutes. James White may not average more than 5 minutes and Shumpert is versatile enough to earn time. Players on great teams sacrifice minutes for wins and I think this squad is more hungry for a ring than an all-star appearance of new contracts (big motivators of players who whine about minutes)

  154. jon abbey

    oh, right, good luck figuring out minutes adding in him and Shumpert. whew, a nice problem to have, I guess.

    without Shumpert, assuming no minutes for White/Prigioni, but with Lin:

    Lin (28), Kidd (24), Felton (18)
    Smith (26)
    Melo (36), Novak (16)
    Amare (34), Thomas (10)
    Chandler (30), Camby (18)

  155. jon abbey

    that’s not even factoring in that our best offensive lineup has Melo/Amare at 4/5, either.

  156. SeeWhyDee77

    SharKuz: And overpaying Felton and letting Lin go makes it ten times worse.

    3 years 10 mil is overpaying for Felton? I think it’s a steal. It’s not like Felton is a horrible PG. No he’s not the best starting PG in the league..but how is 13 ppg an 7 apg with solid defense not worth 3/10? Letting Lin go is baffling..bad even. But I think Grunny is doin well tryin 2 balance win now and prepare for future. Now if he doesn’t get something back for Lin then this recent string (losing Lin, adding Felton) gets a big fat F..in red ink.

  157. max fisher-cohen

    BTW, I’m fine with bringing in Felton and Thomas if we’re keeping Lin. I think having 2+ PG level ball handlers on the floor at once is the key to beating the heat’s defense. You need to have multiple points of attack and guys who can dribble drive off a pass in order to punish the Heat’s hyper-aggressive defense.

    As far as the money issue goes, I see that argument as a nonstarter. Let’s say, hypothetically, that the team re-signs Lin and flops next year with Lin playing as he did after Linsanity — that is, inconsistent. Half the time average starter, 25% out of control and overwhelmed, 25% all-star. Would it be that difficult to dump his salary those last two years? Smaller market teams often have cap space to spare, meaning what would cost the Knicks $60m (or whatever the number is) including taxes over those last two years, would only cost that small market team $20m. Further, these small market teams are desperate for marketable names, and there’s always the possibility that the reason he struggled was do to roster compatibility issues. At worst, I think you’d have no problem sending him to someplace like Sacramento or Toronto for a 2nd round pick and clear away his entire contract.

    The vindictive part of me, however, almost wants Lin to go elsewhere and succeed. Before Gallinari, we never really had a young player traded after developing a fanbase in New York. It was always draft picks, and fans and 2 bit journalists rarely bothered to make the connection between those picks’ and the successful careers of the players they became. If Lin and Gallinari go on to be all-stars and play for winning teams, however, that is something that even the biggest dunce journalists will hang over the Knicks’ heads, and maybe Poppy Dolan will get sick of watching his son humiliate himself and assign him to do a job more fitting to his skill set — cable installations for Cablevision.

  158. MeloDrama

    YJK2011: I think signing Lin would be a Dolan call.Maneuvering to get a cheaper starting point guard seems more like a Grunwald move.I think Felton, Kidd are better than last year’s combo of BD, Bibby, Lin

    A Grunwald move would be to either match Lin or manuever for a cheaper option, then flip Lin for a return.

    A Dolan move is to flip out at your point guard’s perceived insulence after a different offer than previously agreed on is signed, before making an emotional decision to let him go for nothing because “Jimmy Dolan doesn’t get punked.”

  159. SharKuz

    SeeWhyDee77: 3 years 10 mil is overpaying for Felton? I think it’s a steal. It’s not like Felton is a horrible PG. No he’s not the best starting PG in the league..but how is 13 ppg an 7 apg with solid defense not worth 3/10? Letting Lin go is baffling..bad even. But I think Grunny is doin well tryin 2 balance win now and prepare for future. Now if he doesn’t get something back for Lin then this recent string (losing Lin, adding Felton) gets a big fat F..in red ink.

    This is as painful as anything I’ve felt this year, and I gave birth this year.

  160. MeloDrama

    I will say this: if they ARE just trolling Houston and intend to match Lin … Felton may look like a very underrated signing in a few months.

    If you look on 82games.com, the lineups with Felton at the 2 actually performed quite well in Denver and Charlotte. It was a limited sample size in Denver, but those lineups with he and Lawson were dominant. In Charlotte, he and DJ Augustin actually performed pretty well together. If we have him as a combo guard off the bench, it could actually be to our advantage.

    Probably wishful thinking, though.

  161. Brian Cronin

    Honestly, the fact that the Heat did, indeed, lose to a team that played two point guards does actually have me feeling better about this. Maybe Grunwald thinks that that is the key to beating the Heat.

  162. JK47

    Listen, Ray Felton’s sorry fat ass sucks at basketball. He has a sub-.500 CAREER TS% and at 27 his best years are behind him. But his shitty efficiency doesn’t keep him from shooting all the time, oh, no it doesn’t. He’s over 20.0 in usage every single year, despite the fact that he can’t throw the damn basketball into the ocean. He can’t even be bothered to lay off the donuts long enough to get into even passable NBA condition.

    Oh, but I’m sure Ray will be a terrific NBA player in his age 28, 29 and 30 seasons, and won’t be a corpulent brick machine AT ALL. Hey, we were a playoff team with an overrated fat guy as our PG last year, right? And we even have a new corpse to play backup this year since Bibby’s arm finally fell off. 42 wins, here we come, baby!

    This team is so jive.

  163. mcscrewdriver

    Minutes work much better when Lin starts at shooting guard and Felton/Kidd are at the point. Prigioni would be insurance and not play a lot of games anyway.

    Putting Lin at shooting guard lets him be the slasher the Knicks desperately need and will cut out the turnovers because he won’t have the ball in his hands as much. He’ll continue to be a fantastic passer and run the pick and roll alongside Felton and Kidd who could do the same. Beats those Melo ISOs if you ask me and the Knicks offense won’t be stagnant at all.

    He’ll be a potentially liability on defense at either position so no worries about that.

    Smith stays on the bench and (as great as he can be) won’t waste as many shots as he would feel entitled to as the starter.

    I’d pay $15M for an 15 point, 5 assist guy at shooting guard that I can market like a superstar.

  164. Brian Cronin

    This kills me. From yesterday…

    ruruland: Lin’s penetration and pnr skills are probably the most important pieces to making it all come together.

    Agreed. And the most important piece for it all coming together might not be here. Please match the offer, Knicks!

  165. SeeWhyDee77

    SharKuz: This is as painful as anything I’ve felt this year, and I gave birth this year.

    lol indeed..losing Lin is gonna hurt but when u look at it..in NY Lin is gonna problee put up 13 an 7 just like Felton will so I guess the better question is now who’s the better shooter. Felton’s really streaky and Lin’s not great either but I’d still give Lin the edge cuz he works harder it seems. So either way, whoever runs the point needs to have a reliable J cuz statistically both guys will b the same as a Knick as Stat and Melo get all the shots. In Houston Lin gets the ball so I can’t really blame him for signing that offer sheet. Jon Abbey jus said we have 2 match in order to work a s&t with Houston..I hope it happens. Even if they won’t take Stat..I’ll take Martin and a young forward at the least

  166. YJK2011

    Did any of you guys read the story about Grunwald avoiding the Rockets serving him with Lin’s offer sheet?

  167. SeeWhyDee77

    SeeWhyDee77: . Jon Abbey jus said we have 2 match in order to work a s&t with Houston..I hope it happens. Even if they won’t take Stat..I’ll take Martin and a young forward at the least

    Oops..doin this on my fone and I got lazy and didn’t make sure I quoted the rite person. BC said we have to match to trade..sorry

  168. YJK2011

    For all the “Knicks are crazy not to match” opines, Zwerling makes a solid argument to support the thought that the Knicks will still match

    http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/

    But I don’t think Kidd or Felton or event Prigoni would have agreed to join a team with the thought of 4 point guards so I think Lin is a goner.

    But then again, I thought they would draft Ron Artest out of St. Johns so I’m no psychic.

  169. TheRant

    Isn’t it possible they got wind of either (a) another club wanting to increase upon Houston’s offer or (b) Houston wanting to increase their offer, given that the Knicks said they’d match anything?

    This move would then perhaps discourage someone from bluffing up Lin’s contract.

    I still think they will match it. But I also have inside dirt that Lin has been a prima donna and a few players on the Nix squad don’t like him. He was witnessed trying to steal the girlfriend off another club member, despite the “christian and clean” profile.

  170. tastycakes

    Let’s not be collectively ridiculous here.

    There is NO WAY IN HELL they don’t match on Lin.

    Are you kidding? The tax hit DOES NOT MATTER. And his contract is for only 3 years.

    I get that Felton was a weird move, but it just means more point guard depth. The fact that anybody thinks that Priginioannd is at all relevant when considering re-signing Lin is ridiculous.

    The Knicks have two healthy professional NBA guards right now: Kidd and Felton. Aaaaand…. they’re going to let an international phenomenon and marketing bonanza walk? Don’t believe it for a second. You guys are freaking me out!

  171. Z

    tastycakes:
    Let’s not be collectively ridiculous here.

    There is NO WAY IN HELL they don’t match on Lin.

    Are you kidding?The tax hit DOES NOT MATTER.And his contract is for only 3 years.

    I get that Felton was a weird move, but it just means more point guard depth.The fact that anybody thinks that Priginioannd is at all relevant when considering re-signing Lin is ridiculous.

    The Knicks have two healthy professional NBA guards right now:Kidd and Felton.Aaaaand…. they’re going to let an international phenomenon and marketing bonanza walk?Don’t believe it for a second.You guys are freaking me out!

    I think I agree, though the Knicks always manage to leave me speechless, so we’ll see…

    It does seem strange that they wouldn’t have made this Felton trade YESTERDAY when it could have actually been used to bluff the Rockets into a lower offer sheet. (As it is, it seems kind of like that Freddie Prinze Jr movie where he agrees to date an ugly girl on a bet, then convinces himself he’s in love with her just to make the hot girl feel stupid…)

  172. tastycakes

    Also, there’s good reason for the Knicks to take their time JUST to fuck with the Rockets. Those assholes changed their bid only because they wanted to hurt us more with the ‘poison pill’. Why shouldn’t we make them think that they’re suddenly keeping Lin only to pull the rug out at the last minute? They’re making a huge push for Howard and the longer we keep them in limbo on Lin the more it disrupts their “planning” aka trading their entire team for D-Ho and the most overpaid half of the Magic roster.

  173. Brian Cronin

    Let’s not be collectively ridiculous here.

    There is NO WAY IN HELL they don’t match on Lin.

    Are you kidding? The tax hit DOES NOT MATTER. And his contract is for only 3 years.

    I get that Felton was a weird move, but it just means more point guard depth. The fact that anybody thinks that Priginioannd is at all relevant when considering re-signing Lin is ridiculous.

    The Knicks have two healthy professional NBA guards right now: Kidd and Felton. Aaaaand…. they’re going to let an international phenomenon and marketing bonanza walk? Don’t believe it for a second. You guys are freaking me out!

    It is not the Felton trade so much as it is the “Sources say the Knicks won’t match” stuff. That’s what worries me more than the trade itself.

  174. tastycakes

    Z: I think I agree, though the Knicks always manage to leave me speechless, so we’ll see…

    Yeah, I mean, they traded for Melo! (and about a hundred other horrible decisions I could list if I was feeling saucier).

    What’s funny to me is that people are accusing Dolan of making the decision to dump Lin. I just read a tweet about MSG’s market cap going up 600M USD since Linsanity. Dolan has no reason to want to dump Lin for Felton, as Lin is the best thing that’s happened to the Knicks in his tenure (speaking from a business, excitement-about-the-team perspective).

    From a basketball perspective (and if I was trying to think like normal basketball teams and not from that of the endless-pocketed Knicks, who by the way are completely fucking hopelessly capped out during the Melo era) I can at least SEE an argument that Lin hasn’t proved anything and that making a long-term commitment is dicey.

    Lin at his peak performance showed us something you will never see from 400-year old Jason Kidd or Ray Felton. Even if it WAS a total fluke, there’s no way you don’t gamble on it, especially when you consider the other commitments the Knicks have and the fact that they are trying to win (quixotically) in the next 3 years.

    If Lin does turn into a star as a Knick, we can dump those other overpaid max players and have a foundation for the post-Melo/Stat years.

  175. tastycakes

    Brian Cronin: It is not the Felton trade so much as it is the “Sources say the Knicks won’t match” stuff. That’s what worries me more than the trade itself.

    Yeah, I feel you. My argument that “they’re just messing with the Rockets” doesn’t feel right. But “sources” don’t necessarily mean anything, so I guess we’ll just wait and see.

  176. JK47

    Nah, they’re gonna let Lin walk.

    Grunwald was avoiding accepting the offer sheet from Houston. Why? Because he still hadn’t acquired Plan Z (Ray Felton) from Portland yet. Once the Felton trade was made, Grunwald accepted the offer sheet.

    The writing is on the wall. Lin is outta here. WTF does Dolan care? He knows Woody Allen and Spike Lee will still be sitting at courtside, the Knicks will get some national TV dates and back page ink because of their two “stars” and MSG will be filled night after night with hapless fans who actually believe this team might amount to something other than painful mediocrity.

    The man is a cretin. He does cretinous things over and over again. This is just his latest innovation. The Knicks will never be winners as long as that idiot owns the team– that should be obvious to everyone now. This team’s ceiling is probably a #6 seed and a first round exit, FOR THE NEXT THREE YEARS. Oh, and they’ve also traded away every draft pick you can trade away so they could build this powerhouse “win now” team. Even the sunniest optimist is going to have a very difficult time swallowing this particular shit sandwich.

    How do you eat a shit sandwich, by the way? FOCUS ON THE BREAD.

  177. Z

    JK47:
    Nah, they’re gonna let Lin walk.

    Grunwald was avoiding accepting the offer sheet from Houston.Why?Because he still hadn’t acquired Plan Z (Ray Felton) from Portland yet.Once the Felton trade was made, Grunwald accepted the offer sheet.

    The only explanation that makes sense is that Grunwald was actually hoping to have the Felton deal in place BEFORE he got the offer so that Houston could rescind it, thinking that there was suddenly a very good chance the Knicks weren’t going to match it. That would explain his “going off the grid” while the Houston courier was looking to serve him the offer sheet.

    Or maybe he’d been privately threatening Morey with Felton for days, hoping to keep the Rockets from adding a 4th max-year to the poison pill, and now needs to save a little face by actually signing Felton (not a terrible piece of crow to have to eat) and leaking some crap to Berman and Isola (who are so lame that they’d actually believe it) that they are thinking about letting Lin walk…

    Whatever it is, I’m sure there is a logical explanation for all of this, and Lin will be re-signed in due time. Right?

    RIGHT?!?!

  178. yellowboy90

    Anyone else find it strange that before the first Lin offer reports were that it didn’t matter how much money it would be the Knicks would match. Then after the first offer the Knicks were going to match but Lin was mad. Lin says those rumors are “probably” not true but yet agrees to restructure his deal with Houston and doesn’t stop by to meet with the NY brass on his way out. After he signs the offer sheet reports are that NY is mad and now this.

    Could there really be bad blood between the two?

  179. Brian Cronin

    I have seriously soothed myself with the 2011 Mavericks thing. Just thinking about how two point guards really gave the Heat fits (especially if one can penetrate and one can defend 2’s, which both Kidd and Felton can) has me feeling hopeful.

    Although I have no idea how you fit Lin, Kidd, Felton, Shump and JR into two guard spots, even with JR getting minutes at the 3.

  180. tastycakes

    Oh and thank freaking God we’re done with Jared Jeffries.

    I realize you all fell in love with his goofy ass last year. Personally, I like players who can make a layup at least, I dunno, once out of every ten times. (He wasn’t that bad last year, but I’d rather have Camby doing his job by 1000x)

  181. Brian Cronin

    Jeffries had a good year. His first good year in a long time. And he always played hard. I’ll miss him. Maybe D’Antoni ends up in Portland?

  182. tastycakes

    Oh shit, I forgot JR at the 2.

    Hey, this looks like good reporting:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/sports/basketball/jeremy-lins-future-with-knicks-seems-uncertain.html?_r=1&smid=tw-nytimes&seid=auto

    To wit: “Two reports late Saturday cast doubt on that assumption. The first came via the Twitter account of a South Carolina television reporter, Mark Haggard, who said that Felton had told him that the Knicks planned to let Lin leave for Houston. A short time later, Yahoo Sports reported that Lin “appears close” to joining the Rockets, in light of Felton’s deal.”

    Whoa, MARK HAGGARD said Lin’s a goner, IT MUST BE TRUE

  183. Brian Cronin

    Yeah, but Mark Haggard also broke the entire story. Again, he was on the phone with Felton, who told him he was coming to the Knicks. Which he was. So doesn’t it seem highly plausible that when Haggard also says Felton told him that the Knicks told him they weren’t bringing Lin back, it is true?

    Houston’s beat reporter, though, said that Felton was not given any assurances either way. He was just happy to get mini-MLE money when no one else was lining up to give him mini-MLE money.

  184. ruruland

    People are really over-thinking this. This is a good basketball move — on quite a few levels.

    First of all, let’s all remember that in today’s sports media climate there are literally no consequences to mis-reporting a story based on anonymously sourced information. In fact, ESPN generates much of its news cycle through irresponsible anonymously sourced reporting.

    Can we all agree that sources are wrong far more than 50% of the time?

    As far as the move….

  185. tastycakes

    Hey, if you guys want to lose all faith in humanity, I HIGHLY recommend reading the comments on ESPN from time to time. They are truly special.

    And now I’m going to bed. Goddamnit.

  186. tastycakes

    ruruland:

    First of all, let’s all remember that in today’s sports media climate there are literally no consequences to mis-reporting a story based on anonymously sourced information. In fact, ESPN generates much of its news cycle through irresponsible anonymously sourced reporting.

    Can we all agree that sources are wrong far more than 50% of the time?

    So freaking true. Curious about your opinion on why it’s a good basketball move (presumably you’re talking about getting Felton).

  187. JK47

    tastycakes:
    Oh and thank freaking God we’re done with Jared Jeffries.

    I realize you all fell in love with his goofy ass last year.Personally, I like players who can make a layup at least, I dunno, once out of every ten times.(He wasn’t that bad last year, but I’d rather have Camby doing his job by 1000x)

    Oh, then you’ll love Ray Felton:

    Jared Jeffries
    .484 TS%, 12.6 USG, .109 WS/48

    Ray Felton
    .491 TS%, 20.8 USG, .042 WS/48

    Yes, a brilliant move, trading the minimum-contract Jared Jeffries, who by all accounts plays terrific defense, for the $3M contract of Raymond Felton, who by all accounts loves Twinkies. Felton has similar efficiency to Jeffries but just shoots the ball a hell of a lot more. Great. Subtraction by addition, if you ask me.

  188. Brian Cronin

    Anonymous sources are bad, agreed. Haggard, though, named his source. Raymond Felton, the guy who just told him he was coming to the Knicks (which he was). I mean, don’t get me wrong, I guess whoever told Felton could have been wrong, but why tell Raymond Felton you’re not bringing Lin back if you’re planning on bringing Lin back?

  189. ruruland

    Brian Cronin:
    I have seriously soothed myself with the 2011 Mavericks thing. Just thinking about how two point guards really gave the Heat fits (especially if one can penetrate and one can defend 2?s, which both Kidd and Felton can) has me feeling hopeful.

    Although I have no idea how you fit Lin, Kidd, Felton, Shump and JR into two guard spots, even with JR getting minutes at the 3.

    You don’t have to worry about that kind of thing on a great team.

    First, for those who want to focus on the convoluted, this is insurance on Shumpert’s injury. I guess I’m not surprised no one’s mentioned this, but there is no guarantee Shump comes back this year like the player he was last year…….

    Second, yes, there is significant investment in Lin, but giving him a little competition is a good thing. I think even outsiders can see that Lin is a little full of himself — it’s only human, however.

    Third, at the end of the day, this is a fantastic acquisition:

    1)The Knicks biggest defensive weakness prior to Felton was guarding quick point guards. Felton, in-shape, as he will be next year, is one of the better defensive point guards in the NBA — and can handle guys Lin and Kidd struggle with

    2)Amar’e and Chandler are the league’s best pick and roll duo in the NBA. In fact, despite not getting a ton of attempts, Melo has been an extremely effective pnr roll man the last 3 years.

    Felton can’t shoot, and he doesn’t finish all that well— but he’s a plus pick and roll player who has a rapport with Amar’e that Lin never fully developed.

    So much for the proposterous idea of “isolation” as a system when there are great pick and roll players on the roster— that’s a big time insult to Woodson, btw.

    cont…

  190. tastycakes

    I mean, yeah, Ray Felton is way below average as an NBA starter (though why not cherry pick his TS% from the 4 years prior to his Blazer tenure? — .525, .524, .524, .523). As a backup, I like him just fine. I enjoyed watching him play a few years ago. I don’t think he will start for us unless there are major injury problems.

    Ray Felton is an insurance policy.

  191. SharKuz

    Brian Cronin:
    Anonymous sources are bad, agreed. Haggard, though, named his source. Raymond Felton, the guy who just told him he was coming to the Knicks (which he was). I mean, don’t get me wrong, I guess whoever told Felton could have been wrong, but why tell Raymond Felton you’re not bringing Lin back if you’re planning on bringing Lin back?

    I would have to respond to this with why do you have any obligation to tell Felton anything? I mean it’s not like you are worried about it if he doesn’t want to come. I don’t think that it would be common practice to need to give assurances to a player of Feltons caliber. It seems out of place for them to tell Felton that kind of information to begin with. We brought in Kidd, who is far more accomplished than Felton to be someone that could mentor Lin. So you honestly believe that they were willing to lie to Kidd and tell Felton the truth?

  192. tastycakes

    Oh and I just looked up Jeffrightened’s TS% from his previous 4 years and they are hysterically awful. I won’t post them here because I don’t want anybody to choke on their late night snacks.

    Obviously offense isn’t everything, and I think Felton’s abilities, while limited, are potentially useful to this team. As a backup. He’s the backup, right? As a backup.

  193. Brian Cronin

    So you honestly believe that they were willing to lie to Kidd and tell Felton the truth?

    Of course not. If they don’t bring Lin back, it would obviously be because of the change to the offer sheet. A change that only occurred a couple of days ago, well after they signed Kidd thinking Lin was going to be back. Now when they call Felton to see if he wants to come to New York, they tell him what the situation is as it stands now.

  194. JK47

    @241

    As the backup, okay, sure. But on a roster where Jeremy Lin is the starter, Jason Kidd is the backup and Pablo Prigioni is the 3rd guy, why in the name of all that is holy do you need ANOTHER PG? You only need him if Lin is leaving.

    Otherwise, why not use that Gadzuric/Jeffries combo for something we need, like a shooter? Why a fourth PG?

    Because Jeremy Lin is gone, that’s why.

  195. ruruland

    SharKuz: I would have to respond to this with why do you have any obligation to tell Felton anything?I mean it’s not like you are worried about it if he doesn’t want to come.I don’t think that it would be common practice to need to give assurances to a player of Feltons caliber. It seems out of place for them to tell Felton that kind of information to begin with.We brought in Kidd, who is far more accomplished than Felton to be someone that could mentor Lin.So you honestly believe that they were willing to lie to Kidd and tell Felton the truth?

    My response is lost but this sums up my feelings, basically. Haggard is still working on a secondary anonymous source.

    For all we know, Felton could have been a little lubed up after the trade and said something that didn’t really make sense, and was then was placed into a context that would generate page views.

  196. BigBlueAL

    I just dont see getting Felton and Kidd while also keeping Lin. Kidd and Felton did not sign here (for 3yrs each no less) to barely get any minutes let alone possibly DNP’s.

    You also dont sign guys just to try to light a fire under Lin’s ass while paying him 25 mil over the next 3 years. If JR Smith wasnt re-signed already I could maybe see a logic to this but considering he too is signed already I dunno I just dont see it. Hope Im wrong.

  197. Brian Cronin

    But yeah, if the Knicks match Lin’s offer sheet, then the Felton and Thomas pick-up was great. I have no problem with picking up Felton to be a back-up and I love having Thomas on the team again. Pick up Extra E for some bottom of the barrel minutes (especially since they’re getting back all the other former Knicks) and they’re good to go.

  198. jon abbey

    ruruland: Felton, in-shape, as he will be next year

    this is awesome. I love that you’re the one guy in America who claims to definitively know this.

  199. Brian Cronin

    I just dont see getting Felton and Kidd while also keeping Lin. Kidd and Felton did not sign here (for 3yrs each no less) to barely get any minutes let alone possibly DNP’s.

    It makes sense if you (you being the Knicks) think it makes sense to play two point guards in your backcourt. Let us hope that that is why they did it.

  200. JK47

    BigBlueAL:
    I just dont see getting Felton and Kidd while also keeping Lin.Kidd and Felton did not sign here (for 3yrs each no less) to barely get any minutes let alone possibly DNP’s.

    You also dont sign guys just to try to light a fire under Lin’s ass while paying him 25 mil over the next 3 years.If JR Smith wasnt re-signed already I could maybe see a logic to this but considering he too is signed already I dunno I just dont see it.Hope Im wrong.

    This.

  201. BigBlueAL

    Also remember Kidd has openly talked about still wanting to play 20-28 mins a game while playing the final 6 mins of the game. Felton complained all last season because of his lack of playing time and perceived lack of respect shown to him by his coach. He also said after the trade to Denver that he did not want to stay in Denver if he had to continue to come off the bench.

    I dont see Felton coming here to come off the bench and play 15-20 mins.

  202. jon abbey

    and I’d just like to point out that I just posted at 3:45 AM and had like five posts pop up in between the last post I read and my post. no offseason in the NBA anymore…

  203. JK47

    I can’t believe this team is letting Jeremy Lin go and bringing in Ray Felton to take his place and people are acting like everything’s cool.

    The ship be sinking.

  204. Brian Cronin

    Also remember Kidd has openly talked about still wanting to play 20-28 mins a game while playing the final 6 mins of the game. Felton complained all last season because of his lack of playing time and perceived lack of respect shown to him by his coach. He also said after the trade to Denver that he did not want to stay in Denver if he had to continue to come off the bench.

    I dont see Felton coming here to come off the bench and play 15-20 mins.

    In general, I agree. However, no team giving you any calls for the vet minimum, let alone mini-MLE money, can change a guy’s priorities.

  205. ruruland

    BigBlueAL:
    I just dont see getting Felton and Kidd while also keeping Lin.Kidd and Felton did not sign here (for 3yrs each no less) to barely get any minutes let alone possibly DNP’s.

    You also dont sign guys just to try to light a fire under Lin’s ass while paying him 25 mil over the next 3 years.If JR Smith wasnt re-signed already I could maybe see a logic to this but considering he too is signed already I dunno I just dont see it.Hope Im wrong.

    Here’s what you’re missing though— both Felton and Kidd have played their best ball the last three years with another point guard on the floor.

    Secondly, Lin has combo-guard skills. It actuall makes perfect sense. Lin wants to score, wants to put his head down at times and be aggressive at the basket– complementing him with two point guards who are both adept in pnr, up-tempo and game management also eases Lin’s responsibilities with a very talented surrounding cast…

    In other words, this allows Lin to be what he is (still a solid passer), just as Felton and Andre Miller allow/allowed Ty Lawson to be what he is in Denver….

    Let’s not forget that Felton has been an impressive offensive player in the two up-tempo systems he played in. He was a very good two-way player in his stint in Denver.

    Basically you have five guys (pre-Shump) for 3 positions, minues 5-10 minutes for Melo at the 4.

    That means you have 144 minutes for five players — that’s definitely do-able if you give Melo 5-10 minutes at the four.

    That’s 120/4= an average of 30 minutes for each of those four guys….. which will still leave room for SHumpe when he comes back

  206. Brian Cronin

    I can’t believe this team is letting Jeremy Lin go and bringing in Ray Felton to take his place and people are acting like everything’s cool.

    The ship be sinking.

    It is only because we don’t know that that is what is happening. If it is, then yeah, the team is pretty much fucked (I mean, they’ll still make the playoffs and might even get home court, but it won’t be a legit contender). But we don’t know that that will happen yet.

    And really, if their ceiling is a #3/4 seed, then hell, I’m willing to live with it. That’s still a lot of wins. I like watching Knick wins.

    But hopefully they match, because they really need Lin for this team to be something special.

  207. ruruland

    jon abbey: this is awesome. I love that you’re the one guy in America who claims to definitively know this.

    Not quite the same as knowing JR would re-sign, but I’d be shocked if he came into camp like he did in Portland last year.

  208. BigBlueAL

    JK47:
    I can’t believe this team is letting Jeremy Lin go and bringing in Ray Felton to take his place and people are acting like everything’s cool.

    The ship be sinking.

    Im “cool” with it in the way that I still think the Knicks will be very good next season. Hell Im not sure losing Lin would hurt the Knicks at all next season quite frankly. Its the next couple of years after that yeah this would hurt alot IF Lin proves to eventually be the type of player we hope he becomes.

  209. SharKuz

    Brian Cronin: Of course not. If they don’t bring Lin back, it would obviously be because of the change to the offer sheet. A change that only occurred a couple of days ago, well after they signed Kidd thinking Lin was going to be back. Now when they call Felton to see if he wants to come to New York, they tell him what the situation is as it stands now.

    How much has it really changed though? I find it very hard to believe that the management is so shortsighted in this situation that they would solely focus on the big 3rd year number. And if you look at what the numbers were at the time that they offered to Kidd the numbers were going to equal out to about 7m per year over the life of the contract. The numbers now equal out to slightly over 8 over the life of the contract. It’s not as big of a change as people make it out to be. I also would have to think that even if Lin came in and wasn’t able to recreate the things he had done last year that SOMEONE would be willing to gamble on him in a trade during the next 2 years. He is a marketing machine and lots of teams would probably gamble on having a player like that if he only has one bad year in his contract. Even if they can’t trade him right this minute they could match and trade him in a few months.

    Every idiot Knick fan I know keeps insisting that we are going to get Chris Paul. If that were even a notion for us wouldn’t we need a player like Lin?

  210. Brian Cronin

    How much has it really changed though? I find it very hard to believe that the management is so shortsighted in this situation that they would solely focus on the big 3rd year number. And if you look at what the numbers were at the time that they offered to Kidd the numbers were going to equal out to about 7m per year over the life of the contract. The numbers now equal out to slightly over 8 over the life of the contract. It’s not as big of a change as people make it out to be. I also would have to think that even if Lin came in and wasn’t able to recreate the things he had done last year that SOMEONE would be willing to gamble on him in a trade during the next 2 years. He is a marketing machine and lots of teams would probably gamble on having a player like that if he only has one bad year in his contract. Even if they can’t trade him right this minute they could match and trade him in a few months.

    Every idiot Knick fan I know keeps insisting that we are going to get Chris Paul. If that were even a notion for us wouldn’t we need a player like Lin?

    Oh hey, I’m with you. Things shouldn’t be changed. Things should be the same and Lin should be matched.

    I’m just unsure it actually will happen. I sure hope it does.

  211. BigBlueAL

    I dunno Ruru, I get your point in the basketball sense but you are talking about some pretty big egos that will have to be dealt with. Again I hope your right and Lin stays and this works out but Im skeptical that even if Lin does stay it will be all peachy the entire season with no comments/sources talking about Felton/Kidd/Smith complaining about minutes. Or even Lin for that matter but since he is getting paid more than the other 3 combined he should be happy with whatever minutes he gets lol

  212. ruruland

    Brian Cronin: In general, I agree. However, no team giving you any calls for the vet minimum, let alone mini-MLE money, can change a guy’s priorities.

    Melo- 28 minutes at small forward. Smith 20 minutes at sf
    That means you need to divy up 96 minutes for Shump, Smith, Fleton, Kid and Lin

    Smith-5
    Shump-15
    Lin-30
    Felton–20
    Kidd–26

  213. matte sideburns

    I’m no businessman but if Lin’s sudden arrival did so much to boost MSG’s finances, then wouldn’t it follow that his sudden departure could be bad news for MSG?
    If we were to keep Lin and he didn’t pan out the way we hoped, then I’d presume the effects of this be felt only gradually by MSG until the luxury tax came into play. However, if they were to let him go now then surely there’d be some kind of sharp reaction that would hit MSG overall? But as I say, I’m no businessman. This is pure speculation.

    What I’d really like is a time machine to go back and tell the front office not to pick up Chauncey’s option. This poison pill might be a lot easier to swallow if we still had the insurance of using the amnesty to get out of luxury tax hell.

  214. Brian Cronin

    I dunno Ruru, I get your point in the basketball sense but you are talking about some pretty big egos that will have to be dealt with. Again I hope your right and Lin stays and this works out but Im skeptical that even if Lin does stay it will be all peachy the entire season with no comments/sources talking about Felton/Kidd/Smith complaining about minutes. Or even Lin for that matter but since he is getting paid more than the other 3 combined he should be happy with whatever minutes he gets lol

    I think the other three combine to just edge him out, salary-wise. ;)

  215. JK47

    He is a marketing machine and lots of teams would probably gamble on having a player like that if he only has one bad year in his contract. Even if they can’t trade him right this minute they could match and trade him in a few months.

    This is the first thing I’ve seen that makes me feel better. Surely you have to re-sign Lin, if only to flip him for something else in January. If they just let him walk for nothing it’s inexcusable and will be the end of my 25+ year fanhood.

  216. BigBlueAL

    Brian Cronin:
    I think the other three combine to just edge him out, salary-wise. ;)

    Oh yeah for just next season I guess your right, total salaries though no chance I dont think. 9 for Kidd, 10 for Felton and 3 for JR?? Lin is getting 25 mil.

  217. BigBlueAL

    Hey it would be a good problem to have at least having too many guards now as opposed to last season’s problem of having no guards at all lol

  218. BigBlueAL

    I can easily see him having all 3 PG’s playing at the same time. With JR Smith at PF and Melo at C.

  219. SharKuz

    Well if they pass on Lin they will have one player that is under 25, and they will only have that guy bc they weren’t able to trade him for a 4th guy that would be over 38.

  220. AlmostFanatic

    I’ve followed this site for a while, but I felt compelled to register so I could add my $.02 on this topic. I already saw that someone mention that Lin can play he 2 gaurd position. Another point that I saw that I thought was worth noting from an ESPN bog was that maybe the reason the Knicks were “dodging” the Rocket’s offer sheet was to sign Felton to screw the Rockets, and then Match Lin. The Rockets can’t move under the cap restrictions until Lin’s contract is either matched or they officially sign him. The idea here is that since the Rocket’s tried to get one over on the Knicks by back loading Lin’s deal for more than what was expected, the Knicks fired back by taking another legit PG off the table for the Rockets whose roster is now in flux, and THEN match the deal they offered Lin. It actually makes a lot of sense tactically…especially if Dolan really doesn’t care about the cap. Sort of an “oh ok, we’re playing the who can screw who harder game? I guess you haven’t heard about how I spend money.”

  221. Z

    SharKuz:
    Well if they pass on Lin they will have one player that is under 25, and they will only have that guy bc they weren’t able to trade him for a 4th guy that would be over 38.

    That’s a great observation. Sad, because it’s true :(

  222. Frank

    This is could be one of those watershed moments in a team’s history. I can definitely see a lot of casual NYC fans now going over to the Nets. New team, cool logo, pretty good players.

    That said, I think the Knicks match. It just doesn’t make sense not to, either from a basketball or monetary perspective unless they are sure he is not the real deal. Makes you wonder whether there WAS some kind of gentlemans agreement with Morey and the Camby trade and Morey double crossed them, and that’s why all the drama over accepting the offer sheet etc.

    Oh well, I guess we will find out Tuesday.

    Btw from a talent perspective- gadz + jeffries for felton and Kurt Thomas?

  223. Brian Cronin

    I think it is more like getting rid of Thomas’ contract (they have a lot of options at the 4 and if they match Batum, they could use all the extra cap room they can get) while picking up a somewhat useful player. They weren’t re-signing Felton anyways.

    And I agree, Frank, I think this could very well be a watershed moment if they let Lin go. Like I said before, I’m obviously going to be sticking around no matter what (I followed Marbury/Francis, I can follow any Knick team) but I sure can see how it would drive other people away in anger.

  224. Caleb

    Assuming he goes, this turns the offseason and the next 3 years into a black hole.

    Also recall how quickly they were willing to unncessarily dump Shumpert into the Nash trade…

    If they don’t match, then obviously the brass thinks this group of Knicks is a title contender, which 99 percent of the posters here know is ridiculous. It’s a good group, but Lin and to a lesser extent Shumpert are the reason there is/was hope for improvement.

    This season might be semi-ok -even without Lin, PG is upgraded and they’ll probably get a higher seed than last year. But by 2013-2014 it is going to be some brutal winters.

  225. Frank

    Brian Cronin:
    I think it is more like getting rid of Thomas’ contract (they have a lot of options at the 4 and if they match Batum, they could use all the extra cap room they can get) while picking up a somewhat useful player. They weren’t re-signing Felton anyways.

    And I agree, Frank, I think this could very well be a watershed moment if they let Lin go. Like I said before, I’m obviously going to be sticking around no matter what (I followed Marbury/Francis, I can follow any Knick team) but I sure can see how it would drive other people away in anger.

    But if the trade is like they said it was, then they’ll have Jeffries’s contract instead. Whole thing feels funny to me. Gadz for Thomas made perfect sense for both sides. This is all for a second round pick in 2016 for Portland? Or they really like Jeffries, who they could’ve signed as a UFA?

    I love the trade if they match Lin. From a basketball perspective, I’m ok with the idea that they don’t believe that on the court, Lin will be worth whatever his salary plus luxury tax bill will be. But as a fan- this is like a punch in the gut. I’ve been watching sports for a long time and I don’t know that I’ve ever gotten swept up in something as much as I was into Linsanity. If this really goes down the way it looks like its going to, this team will,have more a of a mercenary feel to it than I can remember.

    But I still think they match. I think this is organizational anger at Houston and Lin, but I still think they’ll match.

  226. Spree8nyk8

    Yo this is a fucking idiot move from any perspective. Even if you think he’s not going to work out you could match him now and dish him at the deadline. Even if he flops the first month or so there is going to be a team willing to take the risk that he’ll bounce back and if he doesn’t the economic upturn would pay for itself. That has value. That is something that we should receive something for, not just let it walk away. And I mean I’m not saying that the kid was going to be an allstar but at the same time I’m definitely not inclined to think that he cannot become one either. For the love of god in a worst case scenario you are really only regretting it for one season. I mean if this were saving some cap room or something I could maybe understand it (although I’d still wanna retain him as a trade piece). But it doesn’t. This move guarantees us that we will not be as strong a team next year as we could be. Because no matter how you slice it having him on the team was going to be better than not having him. And like others said if they are bringing Felton in for insurance then I’m great with that, I mean it might be possible that Lin ends up better suited as a 2. Might be nice to have felton then. Wow man are they REALLY going to do this? I mean are you fucking kidding me?

  227. daaarn

    AlmostFanatic:
    I’ve followed this site for a while, but I felt compelled to register so I could add my $.02 on this topic. I already saw that someone mention that Lin can play he 2 gaurd position. Another point that I saw that I thought was worth noting from an ESPN bog was that maybe the reason the Knicks were “dodging” the Rocket’s offer sheet was to sign Felton to screw the Rockets, and then Match Lin. The Rockets can’t move under the cap restrictions until Lin’s contract is either matched or they officially sign him. The idea here is that since the Rocket’s tried to get one over on the Knicks by back loading Lin’s deal for more than what was expected, the Knicks fired back by taking another legit PG off the table for the Rockets whose roster is now in flux, and THEN match the deal they offered Lin. It actually makes a lot of sense tactically…especially if Dolan really doesn’t care about the cap. Sort of an “oh ok, we’re playing the who can screw who harder game? I guess you haven’t heard about how I spend money.”

    That would be awesome if that was the plan, but sadly, I doubt it. No matter how good Grunwald has been this summer, I don’t think he’s that good.

  228. Spree8nyk8

    Brian Geltzeiler ?@hoopscritic
    Still hearing that NY is leaning in the direction of keeping Lin but nothing would surprise me either way.

  229. GoNyGoNYGo

    What is the REAL cost of Lin in year 3? $15+what in luxury tax? It’s easy for us to sit here and say that paying $25-30M a year (A-Rod territory) for a player with 1/2 a season in the NBA a no-brainer. It’s not our money.

  230. NetsFan

    What I find truly hilarious is that the Knicks are reportedly sending money to Portland to pay for Jeffries 3 million dollar salary.

    In summary: The Knicks WON’T pay Lin to play for them, but they WILL pay Jeffries to play for Portland!

  231. thailandvc

    ok getting Lin is a lost cause. Losing Jefferies and getting Felton is effn disgusting. I can get over both of that. BUT…

    Wtf is wrong with Melo getting into the mix here? Why is he so dumb. This can only come back to hurt him. I don’t care that he’s getting in the mix in an of itself. But it just shows how dumb he is and we have to rely on this douche for leadership?

    He might be a team player when he’s checked by better players and stronger personality ala Team USA but man you CANNOT rely on this guy to lead period.

  232. NetsFan

    thailandvc:
    Wtf is wrong with Melo getting into the mix here? Why is he so dumb.

    1) Why is Melo a wing when he can only “defend” the 4?

    2) Why did Melo check out on D’Antoni?

    3) Why is the sky blue?

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