Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Friday, July 25, 2014

Knicks 99, ‘Ptors 94

New York Knicks 99 Final
Recap | Box Score
94 Toronto Raptors
Kenyon Martin, PF 36 MIN | 9-10 FG | 1-2 FT | 11 REB | 0 AST | 2 STL | 1 BLK | 1 TO | 19 PTS | -6

After K-Mart flailed helplessly at his first touch like a swarm of wasps, I thought he’d just take the night off. But Martin turned things around quickly – obliterating a running hook from Valunchooniss (I’m not looking that up), sticking a baseline J, and following up a Felton miss with a vicious, bolt-snapping put-back late in the first semi.

Martin got things going in the second with another mid-range hit, a second put-back slam, and an engaged – if not always correct – performance at the other end. The final stat line may speak volumes, but K-mart’s contributions go well beyond that: Name the intangible, he’s thrown it down in spades. Credit China for tempering him, but not so much that the temper’s rendered useless.

Carmelo Anthony, SF 43 MIN | 14-31 FG | 7-11 FT | 6 REB | 1 AST | 1 STL | 2 BLK | 7 TO | 37 PTS | 0

The Melo-Landry Quasi Blood But Not Really They Just Kind Of Never Got Along But Probably Shared a Cab Together and Maybe a Woman at Some Point Vandetta Thing looked legit in the early going, with Melo forcing many an ill-advised jumper and drives and generally jeopardizing the Bockers’ otherwise snappy ball movement. The trend got worse for a brief stretch to start the second half, helping spur a brief Toronto run before the Knicks got their shit together.

Thirty-two shots is silly – no doubt about that. But the give to the take lies in run-staving bursts, which Melo sparked on couple of occasions when the going got thick. The seven turnovers and lack of board brawn are a little disconcerting; a small sign perhaps that the recently drained knee might do well to only garner the 32 minutes Woodson has been promising.

Iman Shumpert, SF 17 MIN | 2-2 FG | 0-0 FT | 3 REB | 3 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 5 PTS | +2

Shump’s last two Air Canada Center outings have been a far cry from the night last year when he ate Jose Calderon’s soul and Linsanity arguably hit its apex. Another night of early, marginally productive minutes followed by plastic pine for our befroed one – he buried a corner three (good sign), got up in Gay’s grill (good sign), and generally looked at ease on the supposedly hobbled knee. We saw scant traces of him in the second half – a precautionary move, no doubt – save for a few of the game’s final possessions.

Raymond Felton, PG 42 MIN | 2-6 FG | 1-2 FT | 3 REB | 3 AST | 2 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 7 PTS | -3

A superfluous, forgettable performance from Felton on the whole, although that three-point bank had me howling. Really, Felton’s most noteworthy contribution was on the defensive end, where he was key in keeping Toronto’s pair of firebrand points – Lowry and John Lucas’s grandson – from getting into any kind of rhythm. But really, forty-two minutes?

Pablo Prigioni, PG 10 MIN | 1-1 FG | 0-0 FT | 0 REB | 2 AST | 2 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 2 PTS | -3

Some of us were joking about it a few days ago, and god damn if it didn’t come to pass: Prigs has become the token ten minute starter. Pretty strange, considering he’s often responsible for the best sequence of three basketball events in a given game. tonight’s installment: clowning Landry Fields with a ridiculous up-and-under 15-foot flip bank shot from the left elbow, stealing the subsequent in-bounds pass (which, how the hell does this still happen?), and finding Melo for an open three.

Ten minutes. He played ten minutes. Eight of those were spent slap-fighting with Kyle Lowry.

Chris Copeland, SF 5 MIN | 1-2 FG | 0-0 FT | 0 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 3 PTS | +5

At this point, you wouldn’t be totally off base in defining Woodson’s relationship with Copeland as psychological warfare. More than any other player, Copeland’s leash – which is choke-collar length to begin with – is attached to a chain that is then attached to a cannon ball faced squarely in the opposite direction of wherever he’s facing. Tonight was a helter skelter example in miniature: an out-of-control charge, followed by a confident corner three, followed by spasms of defensive flailing, followed by 90 minutes of Kurt Thomas “Texas stories.”

Steve Novak, SF 6 MIN | 2-2 FG | 0-0 FT | 2 REB | 1 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 5 PTS | +13

Steve Novak averaged 30 points, 12 rebounds, and 6 assists per 36 minutes tonight.

Marcus Camby, C 12 MIN | 0-2 FG | 0-0 FT | 5 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 1 BLK | 1 TO | 0 PTS | +8

Celebrating your 39th birthday by promptly sending someone’s shit into the first row and glaring bloodlustily at Bennett Salvatore after a shoddy foul call late in the first? That gets a man stamp. Five rebounds and a block in 15 minutes amounts to found fortune, at this point – a solid outing that hopefully didn’t end with him fashioning his own wheelchair out of Pizza Pizza boxes and socialist tape.

Jason Kidd, PG 31 MIN | 2-5 FG | 1-2 FT | 5 REB | 3 AST | 0 STL | 1 BLK | 2 TO | 7 PTS | +1

Speaking of Birthdays, Jason Kidd got two free hot dogs and a pension from the Esso on the way to Wayne Gretzky International Airport.

He turns 40 tomorrow. Forty! Not a bad celebratory outing, either: a pair of timely threes in the third, beautiful hockey assisting, a bevy of break-ups and deflections – basically being the glue that stirs the drink. The gluestraw.

J.R. Smith, SG 38 MIN | 5-10 FG | 3-7 FT | 5 REB | 3 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 14 PTS | +8

J.R.! J.R.! OK, J.R., STOP! OK STOP! STOP! WAIT A SECOND! J.R.! STOP! J.R., LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME, J.R.! J.R.!……. DO THIS ALL THE TIME!

J.R. Smith has honestly become one of our most consistently engaged defenders. That’s not to say he’s great – he’s not, and sometimes he’s flat out victimized. But the effort and the intensity are there. I know those things don’t mean shit, statistically speaking. Alan Anderson just lit his face up – I get that. Here’s the thing tho: He may take “life moments” off, but he seldom takes a PLAY off. If that makes any sense. It doesn’t.

Five Things We Saw

  1. Who felt comfortable with a 25-15 lead, raise your hand? Right. That didn’t last long. And it never does, because the Knicks are terrible at the end of quarters. Tonight, the Knicks spotted seven points in the final buck and change, turning a would-be blowout into a juju-sapping slog.
  2. Georgetown. Every $%#&*! year.
  3. We’ve all chirped and kvetched tragic on the state of our defense, and what chance we have – if any – of righting that bauer in time for when it matters most. The second quarter was the snapshot of what the Knicks are capable of: Focus, communication, movement. And then? Gone like piss in a fast moving river.
  4. I know Alan Anderson pretty well. I’m a huge Michigan State fan, you see, so I got to catch a good number of Alan’s games back in the day. He never did any of this. Any of it. Never. He was good – don’t get me wrong. But not great. Not even NBA-caliber, really, if you asked us back then. But the fact that he’s here, now, doing this to us ALL THE TIME, well, that’s impressive. We treat “Rise and Grind” like stolen slang – we don’t really know what that’s like, to slog away in an ancient world hoping for one shot at the top. Good for him. Sparty could use him this weekend.
  5. Good win! I predicted earlier today that we’d split this home-and-home. That was assuming a 30-point loss tonight followed by a one-point eeker tomorrow where Melo plays 89 minutes, of course. So this is pretty much found money. It might well be that Martin, Melo, and Earl will have to keep us afloat as the wounds mend. The schedule fast gets tougher after this, so whatever psychic anchor we got, we got.

41 comments on “Knicks 99, ‘Ptors 94

  1. llcoolbp

    Solid win tonight, but woodsen is starting to “ride melo like secratariet”. He really needs to cut hs minutes down around 35 per game. I can see that gimpy knee acting up again if he doesn’t. Speaking of the knee, maybe ruru has some insight- why doesn’t melo wear a knee brace/knee sleave/knee pad on his gimpy knee? We rode Patrick Ewing with 2 gimpy knees and 2 big ol knee pads for 15 years. I have torn my acl twice and still ball at 37. You better believe I strap on the best knee brace I could find and afford every time I play. The compression definitely helps provide stability for my knee. My last acl surgery was at 29 (first one was at 24 on the same knee). I’m going on 8 plus years of weekend warrior/rec league bball. I don’t think I would have lasted without the knee brace.

  2. Z

    …and the oldest team ever gets a little older… Happy birthday Marcus Camby and Jason Kidd! (combined, you guys don’t look a day over 80 :)

  3. Frank O.

    It’s not a gimpy knee. It was a gimpy hammie that caused fluid build up behind the knee.
    Nothing wrong with his knee structure.

  4. llcoolbp

    Frank O.:
    It’s not a gimpy knee. It was a gimpy hammie that caused fluid build up behind the knee.
    Nothing wrong with his knee structure.

    The tendons of the hamstring support the knee. So yes, he does have a gimpy knee, and probably would benefit from a knee brace. But knowing melo, he probably thinks a knee brace doesn’t look cool, or something stupid like that.

  5. chrisk06811

    It’s not a gimpy knee. It was a gimpy hammie that caused fluid build up behind the knee.
    Nothing wrong with his knee structure.

    His knee shoots too much. You take 31 shots, your whole body contributes.

  6. d-mar

    Man, this board has been quiet. Seems like it only gets active after losses, kind of sad….

    K-Mart has been a total revelation, I really hope when Tyson comes back Woody starts him at the PF. Establish defense early, screw the token starter concept with Copeland or White or Prigs. And we don’t need to play Melo at the 4, sure it creates mismatches, but he also gets the crap beat out of him.

  7. Z-man

    Funny, K-Mart had a very Tyson-like game last night. How could he possibly do that at 6-8 and age 35 after a 50-game layoff, considering that Chandler is an all-time great two-way center in his prime?

  8. lavor postell

    d-mar:
    Man, this board has been quiet. Seems like it only gets active after losses, kind of sad….

    It really is pathetic we get more action when we are hit with a slew of injuries, go on a West Coast trip and get our asses kicked. Then we get to hear about Denver’s superior ball movement and how much more enjoyable and fun they are to watch. Funny how nobody was talking about anything other than how fun this team was at the beginning of the year when we were running the exact same offense and getting the same looks we are right now, but actually converting at a ridiculously high and unsustainable clip.

  9. jon abbey

    Z-man:
    Funny, K-Mart had a very Tyson-like game last night. How could he possibly do that at 6-8 and age 35 after a 50-game layoff, considering that Chandler is an all-time great two-way center in his prime?

    heh, you know I was thinking the exact same thing, and even that Martin is so much of a smarter offensive player. he’s not any more skilled than Tyson at scoring, but he knows how to keep the defense off-balance and how to exploit the holes so much better. when he gets a pass on the perimeter, he is actually facing the basket where he can theoretically make a pass for an open hoop, as opposed to Tyson’s zero threat/back to the basket while 20 feet away approach.

    FWIW, Tyson has scored 19 points or more only six times all season, he has only had five “Tyson-like” offensive games in the 62 he’s played.

  10. jon abbey

    lavor postell: It really is pathetic we get more action when we are hit with a slew of injuries, go on a West Coast trip and get our asses kicked.Then we get to hear about Denver’s superior ball movement and how much more enjoyable and fun they are to watch.Funny how nobody was talking about anything other than how fun this team was at the beginning of the year when we were running the exact same offense and getting the same looks we are right now, but actually converting at a ridiculously high and unsustainable clip.

    Denver is still way more enjoyable to watch, I am not sure even ruru would argue that. it seems kind of silly to focus on that after a win, though.

  11. daJudge

    I’m actually pretty excited. I am big on players fitting into roles so looking at Chandler (5), K-Mart (4), Melo (3), Shump/Kidd/JR (2) with Felton at the one looks really good. I love Stat, but K-Mart, if healthy, is playing much more like a power forward. He needs to start with Chandler. That line up would be seriously physical. I am so pleased to see hard (not dirty) fouls happening finally. Add Kidd for the ball movement and maybe we have something. Let Melo be Melo at the three.

  12. lavor postell

    jon abbey: Denver is still way more enjoyable to watch, I am not sure even ruru would argue that. it seems kind of silly to focus on that after a win, though.

    Not arguing that they are more enjoyable, I just don’t see how that’s relevant and how much people base what’s enjoyable on winning. Nobody was bitching about Melo or the offensive system when we were draining 3′s. Now that we aren’t shooting at nearly as high of a clip Melo has become the major culprit for some reason even though our shooting guard and bench contingent contributions have been the major reason for our dip in offensive efficiency. The majority of problems have been on the defensive end where a certain center hasn’t been the force he was last season.

  13. ruruland

    jon abbey: heh, you know I was thinking the exact same thing, and even that Martin is so much of a smarter offensive player. he’s not any more skilled than Tyson at scoring, but he knows how to keep the defense off-balance and how to exploit the holes so much better. when he gets a pass on the perimeter, he is actually facing the basket where he can theoretically make a pass for an open hoop, as opposed to Tyson’s zero threat/back to the basket while 20 feet away approach.

    FWIW, Tyson has scored 19 points or more only six times all season, he has only had five “Tyson-like” offensive games in the 62 he’s played.

    Great points. Except Kenyon is actually quite a bit more skilled than Tyson. He’s had years where he’s knocked down close to 40% of his 3 mid-range shots a game. Actually has a post-game he can use when teams switch on him. Shoot, he’s made 66 career 3-pointers, making 14 on 37% in 2008 (and some of them were big shots, actually).

    A very solid passer that is adept at exploiting the tilted defenses with Melo on the floor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZxVkyY7HLU

    The guy is an all-around good basketball player who’s impact has always been belied by his numbers.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkOqckUembk

    He scored 36 points against the Knicks in the playoffs ;)

  14. ruruland

    lavor postell: It really is pathetic we get more action when we are hit with a slew of injuries, go on a West Coast trip and get our asses kicked.Then we get to hear about Denver’s superior ball movement and how much more enjoyable and fun they are to watch.Funny how nobody was talking about anything other than how fun this team was at the beginning of the year when we were running the exact same offense and getting the same looks we are right now, but actually converting at a ridiculously high and unsustainable clip.

    Owen and friends were not around when the Knicks were winning early in the season except to defend Denver and James Harden.

    So, this portion of the Knicks “fanbase” is actually really consistent.

    Their will be a flood of posts on the Melo trade and Amar’e signing the next time the Knicks lose two games in a row. Clockwork.

  15. ruruland

    llcoolbp:
    Solid win tonight, but woodsen is starting to “ride melo like secratariet”. He really needs to cut hs minutes down around 35 per game. I can see that gimpy knee acting up again if he doesn’t. Speaking of the knee, maybe ruru has some insight- why doesn’t melo wear a knee brace/knee sleave/knee pad on his gimpy knee? We rode Patrick Ewing with 2 gimpy knees and 2 big ol knee pads for 15 years. I have torn my acl twice and still ball at 37. You better believe I strap on the best knee brace I could find and afford every time I play. The compression definitely helps provide stability for my knee. My last acl surgery was at 29 (first one was at 24 on the same knee). I’m going on 8 plus years of weekend warrior/rec league bball. I don’t think I would have lasted without the knee brace.

    He’s worn a knee brace before. Feels it hinders his mobility.

  16. lavor postell

    The roller coaster of a Lakers season continues. They dropped 2 home games this week to Phoenix and then gave up an 18 point lead last night to Washington making John Wall destroy them on the pick and roll all night. D’Antoni doing another masterful job of managing Gasol’s minutes. Now they start a 4 game road trip.

  17. massive

    The attack on Tyson because of K-Mart’s great game last night is absurd. Why is nobody minimizing Amar’e's role on the team? 9-10 and 10 boards is something we were accustomed to getting from STAT, not Tyson. Why can’t it just be a good thing that we have capable, if old, bigs and not a slight on other players or how certain people feel about them? The reality is that Kenyon will be replacing Amar’e moving forward and not Tyson. If we can get this uber efficient version of him to put next to Tyson, then we will be better off for it and it will allow Amar’e to ease back into the rotation without much pressure. I don’t see how Martin’s performance can be seen as a slight on Chandler. If anything, it makes Amar’e look worse as a two-way player.

  18. Owen

    Out if the country on a very slow connection and don’t get the games, but let me be consistent and say that if Carmelo wants to drive away the boo birds that stat line is not how to do it. Especially having more turnovers than boards. Seems like Just the same thing as ever, let me take a lot of shots and hopefully people will think I am better than I am with some help from my legion of apologists….

  19. er

    Owen:
    Out if the country on a very slow connection and don’t get the games, but let me be consistent and say that if Carmelo wants to drive away the boo birds that stat line is not how to do it. Especially having more turnovers than boards. Seems like Just the same thing as ever, let me take a lot of shots and hopefully people will think I am better than I am with some help from my legion of apologists….

    Sorry but you sound like a jackass. Melo didn’t have a great game , way too many turnovers with careless ball handling. But he did his job especially in The second half. Played good D, hit the open man for the most part. Not seeing the game and then making that statement is kinda wierd. Stat lines ain’t everything dude

  20. flossy

    I don’t see why Kenyon Martin having a good game needs to diminish either of Tyson or Amar’e. There is a reason K-Mart was drafted #1 and was given a near-max contract for his prime years. Him having an impact when given 36 minutes amidst a barren frontcourt shouldn’t be blowing anyone’s mind. Still, this is a PF who has never scored at even league average efficiency during any season of his career, so assuming he’s going to score like this going forward or saying he is in Chandler’s league offensively, to say nothing of Amar’e, is nuts.

    At his age, I hope he can give us 20-24 mins of excellent defense and be a threat around the basket that other teams can’t just ignore. Based on the early results I’d say he’s definitely capable of that and sometimes more, which is great–a huge boost in Amar’e's absence.

  21. ruruland

    massive:
    The attack on Tyson because of K-Mart’s great game last night is absurd. Why is nobody minimizing Amar’e’s role on the team? 9-10 and 10 boards is something we were accustomed to getting from STAT, not Tyson. Why can’t it just be a good thing that we have capable, if old, bigs and not a slight on other players or how certain people feel about them? The reality is that Kenyon will be replacing Amar’e moving forward and not Tyson. If we can get this uber efficient version of him to put next to Tyson, then we will be better off for it and it will allow Amar’e to ease back into the rotation without much pressure. I don’t see how Martin’s performance can be seen as a slight on Chandler. If anything, it makes Amar’e look worse as a two-way player.

    I don’t think it’s a slight on Chandler per se. Just gives us a broader sense of his impact, which at his best is still great.

  22. jon abbey

    massive:
    The attack on Tyson because of K-Mart’s great game last night is absurd. Why is nobody minimizing Amar’e’s role on the team? 9-10 and 10 boards is something we were accustomed to getting from STAT, not Tyson. Why can’t it just be a good thing that we have capable, if old, bigs and not a slight on other players or how certain people feel about them? The reality is that Kenyon will be replacing Amar’e moving forward and not Tyson. If we can get this uber efficient version of him to put next to Tyson, then we will be better off for it and it will allow Amar’e to ease back into the rotation without much pressure. I don’t see how Martin’s performance can be seen as a slight on Chandler. If anything, it makes Amar’e look worse as a two-way player.

    I was also saying when Amar’e went out that if Martin and Camby could play 30 minutes combined, it might actually help the team overall, if that makes you feel better.

    the slams on Chandler are a reaction to his deification by many here, THCJ calling him a top 10 in the league offensive player (still holding down the most ludicrous statement made during this season in my book) and him getting a free pass on his sporadic defensive effort for most of the year.

    Tyson is an incredible, game-changing and season-changing defensive force when going all out, as seen in the Finals against Miami, as seen for most of 2011-2012, and as seen all too occasionally this season. he is an extremely limited offensive player, though, wildly overrated by many.

  23. jon abbey

    flossy:
    saying he is in Chandler’s league offensively, to say nothing of Amar’e, is nuts.

    see, this is what I mean. Chandler is a shitty offensive player in the vast majority of games he plays. even factoring in his picks and his offensive rebounding, he is a net negative on offense because of his massive limitations. Martin’s offensive game last night was better than all but a few offensive games Chandler has played all season. that fact is worth noting amidst the ongoing deification of Tyson our Lord and Savior.

  24. lavor postell

    jon abbey: see, this is what I mean. Chandler is a shitty offensive player in the vast majority of games he plays. even factoring in his picks and his offensive rebounding, he is a net negative on offense because of his massive limitations. Martin’s offensive game last night was better than all but a few offensive games Chandler has played all season. that fact is worth noting amidst the ongoing deification of Tyson our Lord and Savior.

    I’m assuming you’re talking about Martin’s offensive game in terms of things he can do other than be a fantastic rolling presence in the pNr game. Martin is easily a better shooter and passer than Tyson which has been apparent even in this little run of extended time he’s getting right now. Chandler does also give us a ton of extra possessions with his activity on the offensive glass and tipping everything back he can get his fingers too.

    To be fair I don’t care about the debate over Tyson’s offensive value as much as I have been concerned over his middling effort defensively this year. Maybe this is because he’s been asked to do more offensively or he’s just a bit worn down from playing basketball almost non-stop for 2 years with the Mavericks’ Finals run and his participation in Olympic ball this summer. Either way we need the guy from last year that I remember constantly shutting down elite frontcourt players last season and owning the paint.

  25. ruruland

    Flossy,

    Chandler’s offensive impact is greater than Martin’s because he is a better screener, slightly better finisher, and definitely a better offensive rebounder. Obviously Amar’e is light years better than Martin offensively.

    But let’s consider a few things. My contention/I’m in the camp that has always believed that low usage players like Chandler can essentially game certain metrics that overvalue efficiency in lieu of models that have yet to be completed publicly that factor interaction effects, the affect of absent skills, and decision-making in those contexts.

    The fact that over their respective careers, Kenyon has averaged about 6 more shots per 36 than Chandler is the primary reason he appears so inferior statistically.

    Martin has a higher assist rate and lower turnover rate.

    Take a look at their shot profiles:

    http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Kenyon%20Martin

    http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Tyson%20Chandler

    If you look Martin from 2007-2009, his shot attempts and efficiency at the rim are very close to Chandler.

    Basically, Martin is coming close to providing the same value in that area.

    The primary difference is that Martin averages about 3 shots per game from 16-23 feet.

    On its face, obviously, that is far from an ideal shot. One of the worst in basketball.

    But what if it replaces a contested 3-point shot from Anthony Carter or Raymond Felton? What if Martin’s ability to make that shot on occasion forces a defender to take a step or two out to guard him, and later opens up a driving lane?

    These things are really hard to measure.

    But since Owen decided to show up and deride Melo today, he seems to be the ideal test case for this.

    Melo took 31 shots last night and had basically just below league average efficiency.

    But guess what? Raymond Felton took six shots, most of which were open 3-pointers.

    Cont…

  26. ess-dog

    d-mar:
    Man, this board has been quiet. Seems like it only gets active after losses, kind of sad….

    K-Mart has been a total revelation, I really hope when Tyson comes back Woody starts him at the PF. Establish defense early, screw the token starter concept with Copeland or White or Prigs. And we don’t need to play Melo at the 4, sure it creates mismatches, but he also gets the crap beat out of him.

    Re: Melo at the 3, it’s not gonna happen, and I’m not going to go out and buy parade confetti after wins against the Raptors and the Magic, sorry.

  27. lavor postell

    If the Knicks win and Nets lose at the Clippers tonight we’ll be up 2.5 games with 14 left (13 for BKN) and 3 games up in the loss column.

  28. ruruland

    With Melo in the game, Felton averages 14 fga per 36 minutes.

    With Melo on the bench, Felton averages 19.3 fga per 36 minutes.

    In Felton’s case, given his struggles spotting up this year, his efficiency hasn’t changed. But the fact that he is taking far fewer shots (self-created) is a net positive for the offense because Melo makes those self-created shots at a much higher level.

    Generally, teammates’ efficiency improves with Melo on the floor because of the positive change in shot type distribution..

    You can see this all over the roster this year:

    Melo/Felton: http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/player-vs-player.html#Raymond-Felton-vs-Carmelo-Anthony|101109,2546;year=201213;season=r

    Melo/Smith: http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/player-vs-player.html#J.R.-Smith-vs-Carmelo-Anthony|2747,2546;year=201213;season=r

    Melo/Kidd: http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/player-vs-player.html#Jason-Kidd-vs-Carmelo-Anthony|467,2546;year=201213;season=r

    Melo/Prigioni: http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/player-vs-player.html#Pablo-Prigioni-vs-Carmelo-Anthony|203143,2546;year=201213;season=r

  29. BigBlueAL

    ess-dog: Re: Melo at the 3, it’s not gonna happen, and I’m not going to go out and buy parade confetti after wins against the Raptors and the Magic, sorry.

    So we arent supposed to get excited over these last 3 wins (which is understandable) but we have to declare the season over after losing in Golden St, Denver and LA??

  30. BigBlueAL

    BTW ess-dog Im not talking about you, just agreeing with what dmar was referring to. This site last week was a funeral for the season yet this week when the Knicks have won 3 in a row its as if the Knicks have had the week off (although the Jazz win was pretty exciting and had people on here talking).

    Just like there is no reason to think the Knicks are back on track and are championship contenders now there was even less reason to think the season was over (plus the next 2 seasons too apparently) because they lost 4 in a row out west with their 2 best players missing half the games.

  31. lavor postell

    BigBlueAL: So we arent supposed to get excited over these last 3 wins (which is understandable) but we have to declare the season over after losing in Golden St, Denver and LA??

    Well we should have won in LA certainly, considering we completely unburdened our offense of Melo’s inefficient volume scoring…

  32. jon abbey

    BigBlueAL:

    Just like there is no reason to think the Knicks are back on track and are championship contenders now there was even less reason to think the season was over (plus the next 2 seasons too apparently) because they lost 4 in a row out west with their 2 best players missing half the games.

    I was doom-and-gloom well before that road trip, and I still hate the way they match up with possible first round opponents like Chicago and Boston. I have been expecting a first round exit for a while now, and the only thing that has changed in the last ten games is the emergence of K-Mart as a quality contributor. if he can stay healthy into the playoffs, that certainly helps.

  33. flossy

    jon abbey: see, this is what I mean. Chandler is a shitty offensive player in the vast majority of games he plays. even factoring in his picks and his offensive rebounding, he is a net negative on offense because of his massive limitations. Martin’s offensive game last night was better than all but a few offensive games Chandler has played all season. that fact is worth noting amidst the ongoing deification of Tyson our Lord and Savior.

    Just because the people you find annoying over-praise Chandler doesn’t mean he isn’t praise-worthy. His career OReb% is literally twice as high as K-Mart’s (and that’s not even counting tip outs), his career TS% is over .600, his career ORtg is 116. He makes his teams +3 point/100 possessions better for his career.

    Martin’s TS% is 90 points lower, his ORtg is 15 points lower and he’s a net negative on offense over his career. This year, in 227 minutes so far, K-Mart is actually playing like a poor man’s Tyson Chandler on offense, with a .586 TS% and 118 ORtg–typical numbers for Tyson that would be Martin’s best BY FAR over a full season. Of course, NYK’s offensive efficiency is -6 with him on the floor, but he’s gotten his minutes during the shittiest part of the season for the most part so that’s excusable.

    But no, he is not a better offensive player than Tyson Chandler. He’s not as good at the things Tyson is good at, and I disagree with Ruruland that the things he does that Chandler doesn’t do, like take (and mostly miss) mid-range jumpers, make him more valuable than Chandler on offense. None of that is to say that he isn’t a welcome addition and a good player.

  34. ruruland

    flossy: Just because the people you find annoying over-praise Chandler doesn’t mean he isn’t praise-worthy.His career OReb% is literally twice as high as K-Mart’s (and that’s not even counting tip outs), his career TS% is over .600, his career ORtg is 116.He makes his teams +3 point/100 possessions better for his career.

    Martin’s TS% is 90 points lower, his ORtg is 15 points lower and he’s a net negative on offense over his career.This year, in 227 minutes so far, K-Mart is actually playing like a poor man’s Tyson Chandler on offense, with a .586 TS% and 118 ORtg–typical numbers for Tyson that would be Martin’s best BY FAR over a full season.Of course, NYK’s offensive efficiency is -6 with him on the floor, but he’s gotten his minutes during the shittiest part of the season for the most part so that’s excusable.

    But no, he is not a better offensive player than Tyson Chandler.He’s not as good at the things Tyson is good at, and I disagree with Ruruland that the things he does that Chandler doesn’t do, like take (and mostly miss) mid-range jumpers, make him more valuable than Chandler on offense. None of that is to say that he isn’t a welcome addition and a good player.

    I explicitly said those things don’t make him better than Chandler offensively, but they are worth considering.

  35. Owen

    Saying Melo is good because Felton is bad, it’s just such shoddy analysis. If you put me on an NBA court how good does that make Melo?

    Seriously, how far are we from the MVP discussion earlier this year? A loooooooong way. And how close is Melo to his career averages, which is what I predicted he would have by season end? Not very far.

    You have been flogging Melo and his life-saving ability to score a ton of points at league average efficiency for more than two years now, and i not only am not impressed, I now can’t wait for him to be traded. Which i think is becoming inevitable. If not at the trade deadline, then next offseason.

    Melo is is going to be on a seriously hot seat next trade deadline if we get bumped in five by the Celtics and are looking far above at Miami and Chicago at the trade deadline next year.

    Btw, shall we revisit whether we should have unloaded Amare? Or whether the nuggets are really a good team or not? Care to offer a new prediction as to when Melo is going to cross that 58% ts% threshold? Wait till next year right?

    I am waiting….

  36. nicos

    I’m not going to get too excited about Martin’ offense- he got a lot of buckets last night due to Toronto’s non-existent rotations. That said, in this offense having a weakside cutter who can finish at the rim can pay some big dividends as Amar’e did this season which will allow him to play some 4 alongside Chandler at the five. Defensively however, I think we’ve seen that he can have the same kind of impact against small lineups that Chandler has against normal/big ones- he can blow up pnrs and recover, switch onto just about anyone, and still has enough hops to defend the rim. He’s not going to be super successful defending the post and rebounding against legit 7 footers but if Bosh is your center… And like others have said, put him at the four alongside Chandler playing at playoff intensity and you’re basically going to have to shoot over the top to score- something Boston/Chicago/Indiana all might struggle to do.

  37. jon abbey

    flossy: Just because the people you find annoying over-praise Chandler doesn’t mean he isn’t praise-worthy.His career OReb% is literally twice as high as K-Mart’s (and that’s not even counting tip outs), his career TS% is over .600, his career ORtg is 116.He makes his teams +3 point/100 possessions better for his career.

    Martin’s TS% is 90 points lower, his ORtg is 15 points lower and he’s a net negative on offense over his career.This year, in 227 minutes so far, K-Mart is actually playing like a poor man’s Tyson Chandler on offense, with a .586 TS% and 118 ORtg–typical numbers for Tyson that would be Martin’s best BY FAR over a full season.Of course, NYK’s offensive efficiency is -6 with him on the floor, but he’s gotten his minutes during the shittiest part of the season for the most part so that’s excusable.

    But no, he is not a better offensive player than Tyson Chandler.He’s not as good at the things Tyson is good at, and I disagree with Ruruland that the things he does that Chandler doesn’t do, like take (and mostly miss) mid-range jumpers, make him more valuable than Chandler on offense. None of that is to say that he isn’t a welcome addition and a good player.

    career numbers just confuse things, honestly. this year’s Chandler is a decidedly different player from last year’s Chandler, etc, etc.

    my argument is that this year’s Chandler is a net negative on offense a huge amount of the time, even factoring in his offensive rebounding, tipouts and picks. his understanding of spacing and how to exploit it is shockingly bad, he is not as good as his numbers make him seem.

  38. flossy

    jon abbey: career numbers just confuse things, honestly. this year’s Chandler is a decidedly different player from last year’s Chandler, etc, etc.

    my argument is that this year’s Chandler is a net negative on offense a huge amount of the time, even factoring in his offensive rebounding, tipouts and picks. his understanding of spacing and how to exploit it is shockingly bad, he is not as good as his numbers make him seem.

    Chandler’s career numbers are actually lower than his numbers this season. This season the Knicks offense has been +7.2 pts/100 better with him on the court, so if your argument is that he has been a net negative on offense, your argument is just wrong, sorry.

  39. jon abbey

    yeah, you’d think that would be definitive, but it isn’t somehow. Novak has an even bigger positive offensive differential, and he also has been offensively worthless in a huge number of games this year (of course he couples it with dreadful D).

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