Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Friday, December 19, 2014

Knicks 2013 Post-Summer League: 4 Questions

I thought it’d be good to gather some of the brain trust and ask some questions about what they saw of the Knicks during summer league.

1. The Knicks have invited Jeremy Tyler to training camp. Assuming he makes the team, how many games into the season before Woodson actually trusts him to warrant more than token minutes?

David Crockett: Not before December unless there is injury. One exception. If he starts out playing defense, like Shumpert did, he’ll get some rope. Thing is, we probably need him to score.

Robert Silverman: Welp, assuming that Kenyon Martin or Lamar Odom or John Gianelli or some other veteran PF/C is signed before September, given the Tokyo-subway-at-rush-hour-level jam-packed frontcourt rotation (And yes, I’m including Melo), it’s going to take awhile. Best case scenario is a path similar to that taken by Chris Copeland (<3 n’ miss u, Chris. Don’t let West and Hibbert and those Nap Town bullies push you around and tote chartreuse backpacks and stuff. OUR BABY’S ALL GROWNS UP.). Tyler’ll get a smattering of minutes in lopsided victories/ugly blowouts, before a spate of injuries and/or ineffective play opens up space, probably right before/right after the All-Star festivities.

Mike Kurylo: Either 25 games (how long it took Copeland to see some serious time), or when both Woodson gets sick of Bargnani’s hyalophobia and Amar’e is hanging out with the medical staff. Whichever comes first.

Jeremy Conlin: I’m not sure it’s a question of how long before Woodson trusts him as much as how long before Woodson is desperate enough to play him. As long as Chandler, Amar’e, and Bargnani are healthy, Tyler should probably stay on the bench.

David Vertsberger: To me, Tyler’s first real minutes will come due to desperation. We’re due for another STAT injury, or perhaps someone above Tyler in the depth chart will straight bomb. Assuming Kenyon Martin re-signs, I don’t really see Tyler getting genuine minutes on his own accord.

2. Of the non-Tyler big men (Terrence Jennings, Jerome Jordan, and Eloy Vargas), which should the Knicks take another look at?

David Crockett: My eyes tell me Eloy Vargas, but it’s probably Jordan. Jordan has played well as a professional. So there’s that. Jennings played well but I really wonder how well his game translates. I’m intrigued by Vargas’s overall size and athleticism.

Mike Kurylo: Jennings averaged 2.5 blk/36 in the Dees, and led the team in swats (4 blk) during the summer league. Half of his rebounds were Symbiote Knick misses. Sounds like that “mini-Tyson” the Knicks have been looking for.

Jeremy Conlin: Jordan is probably the best of the group – he’s been strong in summer league and has the D-League track record over the last two years to back it up. Plus, he was with the team in 2012 so at least is vaguely familiar with the system and culture.

David Vertsberger: Vargas looks one-dimensional to me and Jordan has yet to develop much skill since we last saw him, so it’d be Jennings. He was sound at just about everything on the court, and that 7’2″ wingspan makes me smile. I’d actually take him over Tyler.

Robert Silverman: It’s an interesting choice. Each of these bigs offers a fairly unique skill-set. Jennings is a banger/hustler with a decent touch from 15′ and around the rim who tends to get manically flail-y and out-of-control on defense. Vargas is more slight of build but might be the most fundamentally sound defender of the three, and can stroke it from three-point range. Jordan is…long. He was probably the least impressive Knick big at the LVSL, but like the old saying goes, you can’t instruct altitude. If I had my druthers (and I buy mine in bulk at the Costco), I’d opt for Jennings by a hair over Eloy. The fact that ‘Eloy Vargas’ sounds like a character in a Phillip K. Dick novel nearly pushed him over the finish line.

3. After watching summer league, this year Tim Hardaway Jr. will be ____.

David Crockett: “A PERFECTLY ADEQUATE, LEAGUE AVERAGE SG.” (And, many fans will not understand the value of a cheap, league average player.)

Mike Kurylo: “CHUCKING.” Was it me or did Hardaway not see a shot he didn’t like? On one play a big man made a good defensive play and hustled up the court. Normally you feed the gargantuan to reward him for his efforts. Tim-may launched a three. If that happens in November, change my answer to “ON THE BENCH.”

Jeremy Conlin: “DYNAMIC.” Perhaps not very, but before he got hurt he displayed a level of offensive skill exceeding that of many of New York’s wing players from last season (Novak, Kidd, Brewer, James White).

David Vertsberger: “EARL.” Summer League confirmed my belief that Tim Hardaway Jr. on the basketball court is a J.R. Smith clone. High-volume scorer who would best suit his team spotting up and taking advantage of his athleticism on the defensive end, if he actually stuck to it.

Robert Silverman: “ENTICINGLYFRUSTRATING.” Okay, that’s not one word, but I think it does sum up the totality of what will be year one of the THJr experience. The talent is there to be an above average shooting guard/long-time NBA #STARTER. He doesn’t have one aspect of this game that really jumps off the page, and when he tries to do things he’s not particularly suited for — like engaging in his best bit of JR Smith CosPlay, launching off-balance 20 footers — he gets in trouble. As with our fave pipe-offerer, there’ll be delicious highs from Timmy the Younger and plenty of gaffes that will cause the ‘Bocker faithful to use their skulls to dent a desk or two.

4. Who haven’t we mentioned yet that the Knicks fans should hope to see on the roster in November?

David Crockett: Leslie. I see what there is to like. (I didn’t catch much of him in college.) He could still be quite a steal, but he’s got some serious work to do.

Jeremy Conlin: Toure Murry might be worth a longer look. The Knicks were at their best last season with multiple ballhandlers on the floor and Murry could be a good fill-in emergency guard. They’d be better served adding another guard than another big man.

David Vertsberger: Toure Murry! A point guard who can do that, what do you call it? Defense? Yeah, that thing. That’s one of our biggest needs at the moment and thankfully Vegas has one again blessed New York with a gift, Toure Murry.

Robert Silverman: Um…TOURÉ MURRY. This article has been completely Touré Murry-free for who knows how many bytes and therefore is not an internet-based basketball commentary/analysis that I wish to take part in. Good day, sir(s). I SAID GOOD DAY. Hyperbolic gushing aside, Murry’s probably not ready to step in as the Knicks 3rd PG. Bobby “BOBBY!” Brown, Bassy Telfair or possibly someone we haven’t heard in the fervid soup of summer gossip — Beno Udrih, Mo Williams or even Nate? (Probably not Nate) — is gonna snag that plum role. That said, like I babbled about here, he’s an intriguing combo guard prospect, mainly on the defensive side of the ball. Stefhon Hannah really opened some eyes playing for the D-League Select Team. An undersized scoring point (think a quicker Lindsay Hunter), he’s also the reigning two-time Defensive Player of the Year. Yes, D-League DPOY, but still.

Mike Kurylo: If Felton gets hurt, and it turns out that Pablo Prigioni is really 53 years old (c’mon that set shot screams “grandpa”), you’ll want Toure Murry on the roster. He was OK in Vegas, and his D-League stats are solid. Also there was this.

32 comments on “Knicks 2013 Post-Summer League: 4 Questions

  1. DRed

    I will happily eat my crowfeather hat if THJ is a league average SG this season. That would be awesome. It’s also not going to happen.

  2. Vinny L.

    “Don’t let West and Hibbert and those Nap Town bullies push you around and tote chartreuse backpacks and stuff. OUR BABY’S ALL GROWNS UP.”

    That’s another thing I didn’t like about old man Woodson. How him and his old geezers on the team used Cope’s compromising position to boost their own ego’s. Cope was a rookie, but he’s still a 30 year old grown ass man who should’ve demanded respect. I think Cope being accepting of the full rookie hazing treatment played a role in him being not getting respect.

    Your 30 years old and you’re letting another man make you carry chartreuse backpacks?

    I don’t think West, Hibbert and the Indy organization are ignorant enough to treat Cope like that.

    “I’m not sure it’s a question of how long before Woodson trusts him as much as how long before Woodson is desperate enough to play him.”

    “To me, Tyler’s first real minutes will come due to desperation. We’re due for another STAT injury, or perhaps someone above Tyler in the depth chart will straight bomb. Assuming Kenyon Martin re-signs, I don’t really see Tyler getting genuine minutes on his own accord.”

    Yup. Woodson is a old stubborn man. He waited until Indiana pushed him and his old geezers to the brink of elimination before he sat Kidd and gave Cope serious minutes in game 5.

    And let’s be real. The fact that we’re talking about summer league players bailing the Knicks out is a quiet admission that this offseason was weak for the Knicks.

  3. Vinny L.

    Or, we can think that Woodson is going to be more willing to throw the kitchen sink at any problem that arrives because this is his last year on his contract…. Knicks should’ve got Doc but I can understand the Knicks loyalty and wanting to give Wood atleast one more year. Next year we can get Jeff VAN GUNDY BACK

  4. Vinny L.

    I was gonna say that TDM just made me cry. But they’re blocking my comments again. I don’t know why.

  5. Vinny L.

    You dudes are nerds and cowards. Blocking my comments cause I don’t agree with your stats and I don’t like your players lol.. My comment blocked because I like Nate?? Hilarious… You guys probably don’t even play ball. You meet any dude in the hood and they have the same dreary disposition when talking about the Knicks. And its been like that for 40 years. What makes your “efficiency” stats better than my opinion?

  6. Frank

    Not sure we can really extrapolate THJr’s summer league to his upcoming year. Chances are he will button his shot selection way down when he’s on the floor with the big boys. I think if he can keep his usage to the 15-17 range he can be pretty good (ie. spot-ups, attacking closeouts, basket cuts, transition).

    Re: Tyler- I’m not sure if we’ll have much choice depending on who we sign. If K-Mart gets a good offer he may just go elsewhere, leaving Tyler maybe as Tyson’s main backup. But my sense is that Woodson doesn’t like to play young players who don’t play defense – he’s good with playing young players (like Shump) who DO play defense.

  7. nicos

    Toure Murry is in no way, shape or form a point guard right now. He might earn a roster spot due to the uncertainty around JR but I can’t see him getting any minutes at the one unless he really improves over the next two months- not impossible, Copeland played just well enough in summer league to get an invite to camp and really played well there.
    I think Tyler may be a year away from being a reliable rotation guy- clueless on defense and both foul and turnover prone (though playing with actual point guards may help with the turnovers). That said, he has the potential to be a legit starter at either the four or the five- solid size and very athletic, he can already shoot the mid-range, put it on the floor, and is good around the rim. He doesn’t block out much but can board as well. I’d love to see Amar’e let him tag along to work out with Hakeem- though now that Hakeem is with the Rockets is he still going to work with other teams players? He’s absolutely worth the risk of a roster spot- I’d give him the kind of deal they gave Leslie right now so they have a chance to keep him under control if he has a Copeland-like breakout year.
    Leslie’s jump shot looks completely busted- he and Hopla should be attached at the hip this summer. Give him a jump shot and 10-15 pounds and he’s a rotation guy but you can say that about a ton of guys who never made it so I’m not counting on it actually happening.

  8. KnickfaninNJ

    I not sure why people think JVG is a better coach than Woody. I remember him coaching. Excellent, motivated defense and very pedestrian offense. But he had very good players. He quit with the Knicks right around .500 and getting worse. I think the players were getting older that if he’d stayed longer Knick fans wouldn’t remember we him as fondly

  9. jon abbey

    nicos:
    Toure Murry is in no way, shape or form a point guard right now.He might earn a roster spot due to the uncertainty around JR but I can’t see him getting any minutes at the one unless he really improves over the next two months- not impossible, Copeland played just well enough in summer league to get an invite to camp and really played well there.
    I think Tyler may be a year away from being a reliable rotation guy- clueless on defense and both foul and turnover prone (though playing with actual point guards may help with the turnovers).That said, he has the potential to be a legit starter at either the four or the five- solid size and very athletic, he can already shoot the mid-range, put it on the floor, and is good around the rim.He doesn’t block out much but can board as well.I’d love to see Amar’e let him tag along to work out with Hakeem- though now that Hakeem is with the Rockets is he still going to work with other teams players?He’s absolutely worth the risk of a roster spot- I’d give him the kind of deal they gave Leslie right now so they have a chance to keep him under control if he has a Copeland-like breakout year.
    Leslie’s jump shot looks completely busted- he and Hopla should be attached at the hip this summer.Give him a jump shot and 10-15 pounds and he’s a rotation guy but you can say that about a ton of guys who never made it so I’m not counting on it actually happening.

    once again showing that the ‘brain trust’ of this site is posters like nicos and Frank, not the group above.

  10. jon abbey

    Vinny L.: Jeff Van Gundy is a very good/nice man…Period… And he took us to the promised land 1 time… unlike old man Woodson who crackes the whip on young uppitty negroes.. Which makes him loved in the media and among corporate types. He don’t want Nate because he’s an effective player from the Bay area.. And we know about those rebelious negroes from the Bay. Van Gundy is more Blacker than Wood in my book…I don’t care what the current Knicks shills think at all. I care about what the people in my hood think and what I think.

    Nate Robinson is from Seattle, the rest of this is even dumber. why haven’t you been banned yet?

  11. Vinny L.

    Hmmm Seattle and Oakland… How far is that Jon? Or do you really think certain people don’t communicate with each other in that region??

  12. jon abbey

    heh, they’re 800 miles away from each other, roughly as ‘close’ as NYC and Atlanta.

  13. Vinny L.

    Yo Jon. They already deleted my comment you pasted. So there was no need for you to respond. They wanted no convo on it

  14. JK47

    Vinny L.:
    Yo Jon. They already deleted my comment you pasted. So there was no need for you to respond. They wanted no convo on it

    None of us want any convo on it.

  15. Vinny L.

    jon abbey:
    heh, they’re 800 miles away from each other, roughly as ‘close’ as NYC and Atlanta.

    Did you see the last atlanta vs knicks game? Who were they rootiing for?

  16. EB

    Vinny L.: Did you see the last atlanta vs knicks game? Who were they rootiing for?

    Vinny please report to your nearest methadone clinic. We’re all very worried about you.

  17. danvt

    nicos: Copeland played just well enough in summer league to get an invite to camp and really played well there.

    I remember Copeland and Prigioni running beautiful P&R’s over and over in summer league. Or was that training camp / exhibition season?

  18. Z-man

    Good riddance, Vinny.

    On another note, anyone think Malcolm Thomas is worth a look-see in training camp?

  19. bidiong

    Thank the Lord! The annoying fly known as Vinny is gone! I might not have been posting but I’ve been reading every day and it’s so annoying to have a dumbass like him around.

  20. bpdelia

    OK. after a coupleabuncha years of loving this blog I actually went through the massive inconvenience of registering on my phone to say one thing……. thank you for banning Vinny. Now that the heavy lifting is done I suppose I’ll be commenting. Ill make sure my first comment is about how efficiency is stupid because Nate Robinson rules. A priori knowledge baby. I KNOW Nate Robinson is efficient because. yup ended a sentence with a conjunction too suck on it nerds.

    seriously though blog rules and comments are generally excellent.

Comments are closed.