Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Thursday, April 24, 2014

Knicks 118, Celtics 110

Boston Celtics 110 Final
Recap | Box Score
118 New York Knicks
Carmelo Anthony, SF 40 MIN | 13-24 FG | 7-8 FT | 12 REB | 10 AST | 35 PTS | +3

Despite a pair of franchise-burdened shoulder muscles that probably wouldn’t even appear on an MRI – last I checked, the scanners don’t register vapor – Melo continued on his beast of burden rampage with his first triple double in over five years. Hitting from anywhere and everywhere and getting to the stripe when he needed to, Melo feasted on Brandon Bass and an ankle-hobbled Paul Pierce in equal measure, refraining from forcing the issue and almost always making the right pass out of the many first half traps sent his way.

But while Melo managed to match Pierce bucket for blistering bucket down the stretch, it was his trip-dub-sealing dishes to Novak – both threes, both nylon-singing hits – that proved the true daggers. It’s safe to say that Anthony’s enjoying the finest stretch of his career; one that’s quickly beginning to resemble that of another Knick legend, and Anthony’s boyhood idol. Some dude named Nard or something.

Landry Fields, G 19 MIN | 1-3 FG | 0-0 FT | 5 REB | 2 AST | 2 PTS | -4

After confiding in reporters earlier today that he “wasn’t sure” whether Landry or Shumpert would remain in the starting lineup upon Amar’e Stoudemire’s now imminent return, Mike Woodson’s diplomacy was met with a combination of laughs and and pants-pissing laughs in the Twitterverse. And for good reason: Fields just looks lost and / or outmatched out there most of the time. He did make a couple very nice feeds to Chandler, but mostly he spent his time getting crop-dusted by Paul Pierce, who oddly enough was farting out the gas created after eating Landry Fields.

Someone would call these a “well-rounded game,” in the same way that USA Today is a “well-rounded” newspaper. Me? I’m just hoping Landry’s sophomore slump doesn’t degenerate into something more acute.

Tyson Chandler, C 42 MIN | 9-10 FG | 2-2 FT | 7 REB | 1 AST | 20 PTS | -1

Opponents of late seemed to have had the Tyson Rubik’s Cube figured out, emphasizing having their bigs draw Chandler away from the orange-clad slaughterhouse he calls home. Entering tonight’s series finale against the C’s, it seemed obvious that the Celtics – forced by true center-less circumstances to roll with KG at the five – would do just that. KG mostly had his way from mid-range, and Tyson finished with fewer than 10 rebounds for the second straight game. But his 20 points — almost all of them on thunderous throw-downs, and on NINE OF TEN FROM THE FIELD — were as timely and momentous as could be.

By far my favorite Tyson tidbit of the night came towards the end of the third quarter. During a stretch in which the referees managed to inflate the foul disparity to 17-8 in favor of the Celtics, Chandler was called for an offensive foul after Greg Stiemsma had the misfortune of running straight into TC’s flying scissor kick. So tough, and so, so awkward.

Baron Davis, PG 18 MIN | 0-3 FG | 0-0 FT | 2 REB | 1 AST | 0 PTS | -9

After a few dozen games of positively pooptastic performances, exactly three of which he managed to finish in double figures scoring, it was understandable that the Knicks would want to put Baron under the knife to have his headband – worn since birth – surgically removed. Little did they know that the thin film on the inside of the headband was actually Baron’s brain. The result? A point guard that looked like a goat being lowered into a raptor cage, why with Avery Bradley having been sicced on him. Thank God Mike Bibby was there to I’m starting to feel lightheaded….

Iman Shumpert, G 25 MIN | 1-4 FG | 3-4 FT | 1 REB | 0 AST | 6 PTS | 0

With all the ink being gushingly spilled over Shumpert’s meteoric rise to the upper echelon of wing defenders, you have to expect something in the way of zebra backlash. Danny Crawford and company put the handcuffs on #21 early and often, preventing the precocious rook from getting far enough into Pierce or Rondo’s shorts to wreak any kind of havoc. He found ways to contribute here and there, but his four turnovers helped make this largely a night to forget.

Mike Bibby, PG 26 MIN | 1-3 FG | 0-0 FT | 5 REB | 6 AST | 3 PTS | +16

Let’s be honest: Watching Bibby get in on the first half three-point action was super charming. On a night when Baron Davis was as useful as a plastic bag full of toenail clippings, Bibby managed a fairly decent ballgame, dishing a few vintage dimes while committing no turnovers. Prior to the game, Woodson indicated he might need to give TD “another look” before the season’s end. But if Bibby can give what he gave tonight, I see no reason to hedge on resurrections.

Jared Jeffries, PF 6 MIN | 1-1 FG | 0-0 FT | 0 REB | 0 AST | 2 PTS | +9

Not a whole hell of a lot to write home about for JJ, who hasn’t exactly had the greatest of career moments opposite the shamrock green. But his pair of steals and solid defense on Garnnett meant tonight’s burn wasn’t a total wash.

Steve Novak, SF 28 MIN | 8-10 FG | 1-1 FT | 0 REB | 2 AST | 25 PTS | +9

Hearing Charles Barkley refer to Novak at halftime as “the best shooter in the NBA” marked not only the nicest thing Chuck has ever mumbled semi-coherently about our beloved ‘Bockers; the frequencies actually made their way through time and space and into the sharpshooting forward’s ears, propelling him to an equally torrid second half that very nearly shook the Garden roof to sand. In the wake of a stretch where the savant-like marksmen seemed hesitant to hoist, tonight’s outburst — his 25 points were a career high — was just as important as Melo’s in helping keep foot to Celtic throat. As SI’s Zach Lowe joked on Twitter, during Novak’s final two throws, you wouldn’t have been surprised if the Garden scorekeepers had just tacked on the three points — Frank Drebin style — before the ball even hit it’s apex.

J.R. Smith, SG 36 MIN | 8-16 FG | 2-2 FT | 4 REB | 6 AST | 25 PTS | +17

In the first half, it was Smith whose lights-out bombs helped balloon the Knicks’ lead. In fact, heading into the locker room, Smith was on pace to break the NBA record for treys in a game by two. But — in what was a microcosm of J.R.’s general M.O. — Smith tailed off in the second half. Still, his stat-stuffing ways, solid perimeter D, and timely fall-away jumper with the Celtics down only six should help move Earl’s performance out of Melo and Novak’s shadows, and into a shared spotlight.

Five Things We Saw

  1. During the Knicks’ ridiculous first half three point shooting barrage, I felt about as close as I ever will to an all-out orgy — everyone got a piece. Spearheaded by J.R. Smith (7-9 from deep in the first half, 7-10 overall) and Steve Novak (4-6 in the first half, 8-10 on the night), the Knicks bludgeoned their foe’s corpse so hard that even the perpetually zombie-like Celtics couldn’t overcome it. Being that we’re unlikely to see that kind of display again this season – and maybe ever – let’s all huddle up and give thanks. For that amazing orgy.
  2. After being hammered on the boards by both the Bulls and the Heat in recent games, it was imperative that the Knicks – doomed as they are to tussle with one of those two – came out ready to punish the glass-challenged Celtics. With both teams shooting lights out for extended periods, the Knicks ended the night with a 36-26 rebounding advantage — progress, to be sure.
  3. I know it’s bad bueno to bitch about the refs, particularly when you’re proves victorious. But the crew of Danny Crawford, Pat Fraher, and Tony Brown were out of their $%@^&* skulls for extended stretches tonight. Aided by a third quarter stretch in which the Knicks were whistled for seven fouls in three and a half minutes — while Greg Stiemsma got away with literally shoving Tyson Chandler out of bounds, and very nearly took the big guy’s head off with a would-be flagrant moments later — the Celtics finished with a 26-17 foul advantage, getting to the line 34 times to the Knicks’ 17. Just sayin’.
  4. The Knicks 118 points in regulation mark the most given up by the Celtics this season, and only the second time in the last 22 games that the C’s — still tops in the league in terms of defensive efficiency — have given up a hundo (the other being to the Heat, whom they beat 115-107). That’s impressive. More impressive still was how horribly the Knick bench bested that of their green-clad foes: 55-2. Fifty-five to two!
  5. This probably should’ve been auto-corrected.

70 comments on “Knicks 118, Celtics 110

  1. jon abbey

    biggest game of the season was the OT one we lost to the Celtics where D’Antoni didn’t foul Pierce at the end of regulation up 3. if we’d held on there and everything else since had played out the same (big if, I know), we’d still have a real chance at the division.

  2. ABG

    The Knicks magic number is 3 for the playoffs. Lets make it 2 tomorrow night, followed by a MKE loss in Indy on Thursday–then we clinch Friday night in Cleveland.

  3. JC Knickfan

    jon abbey:
    biggest game of the season was the OT one we lost to the Celtics where D’Antoni didn’t foul Pierce at the end of regulation up 3. if we’d held on there and everything else since had played out the same (big if, I know), we’d still have a real chance at the division.

    What about 89-91 lost at Boston? Where MDA had Novak come in game for first time and shot for the game winner?

  4. johnlocke

    Fields and Baron: “What does a dude need to do to get an F around here, Punch Amare in the back?”

  5. Jacob

    Thx Jim.

    Carmelo had stretches like this in Denver… What worries me, is that they don’t seem to be random. He genuinely seems to love being The Man on a 45-win team, as opposed to being One of The Men on a 60-win team.

    If Amar’e and Lin come back, I’m afraid he’ll lose his rhythm and revert to an inefficient 18-point scorer, thus negating all the progress we seem to have made.

  6. ruruland

    Jacob:
    Thx Jim.

    Carmelo had stretches like this in Denver… What worries me, is that they don’t seem to be random. He genuinely seems to love being The Man on a 45-win team, as opposed to being One of The Men on a 60-win team.

    If Amar’e and Lin come back, I’m afraid he’ll lose his rhythm and revert to an inefficient 18-point scorer, thus negating all the progress we seem to have made.

    How many times do I need to………

    Ok, well, he had really efficient seasons with Allen Iverson. He was really efficient last year with Amar’e and Billups. Maybe a lot of his inefficiency this year had to do with the fact that he was playing with injuries, he was being totally under-utilized and misused as a corner spot-up shooter and point guard in MDA’s offense (one in which had no floor spacing when Melo was playing solid before he got hurt)…….all of that turned into a mental slump.

    Someone warned you all he would come out of it, and come out of it big time.

    Indeed, Melo has played like this before for long stretches. A 90 game stretch, even. But injuries and team overhauls have played a big part, IMO, in Melo not being able to sustain his play. I don’t expect him to be a 33/8/5 guy on 60 TS, but if he can stay healthy, he’ll be very efficient here in the long-run. Melo’s never played with the same primary ball-handler for a long period — the longest time he was with a player — Miller– was the most efficient time of his career.

    And …”The Man on a 45 win team..”

    When does it end, folks? IS there not a difference between a 45 win team and a 49, 50, 52,53 and 54 win team?

    On what teams has Melo played on that had the potential to win 60 games?

  7. ruruland

    “He’s the best 3-point shooter in our league by far. I mean it’s not even close,” Smith said. “The guy’s shooting 50-something percent from 3, so people are starting to catch onto it but not fast enough.”

    I’d do just about anything to see Smith, Novak and Shumpert play together for the next few years.

  8. formido

    Lin haters in the game thread getting bizarre. Not a top 50 pg in the league despite being top 40 in +/- and PER amongst all player?

    Lin will be an all-star in at most three years. Remember I told you. Remember, last year was the very first year in his life that all he had to do was play basketball, unlike virtually every drafted player in the NBA. He got a 4.2 in HS and an Economics degree at Harvard while other kids were spending every waking moment living and breathing basketball. And how much did he improve this last season?

    To recap his history:

    I’m just a normal fan of basketball, don’t follow high school basketball, but I hear about Lin beating mater dei and winning the title. But he’s no good, doesn’t get a scholarship.

    I forget about him but he pops back up in the news for dunking on and blocking Uconn’s lottery players while racking up a bunch of stats and almost beating them singlehandedly. But he’s no good, doesn’t get drafted.

    I forget about him but he pops back up for working John Wall summer league. But he’s no good, Golden State cuts him.

    So what are the odds that somebody with marginal talent keeps overcoming major hurdles to show up in the national press, at every level? When folks claim he’s just a competent pg, not that special, I think I’m going to remember just how accurate the analysis has been by people who tend to make judgments based on the eye test and whether players have “talent”, by which they always mean long arms and speed and by which they never mean mental abilities, even though those are even less trainable.

    What are the odds that armchair scouts have finally corrected for the cognitive biases that caused them to incorrectly evaluate Lin at every previous stage. I say just about zero.

    The team had something like a 15 point average margin of victory with Lin and Melo under Woodson. You better HOPE it works because one star does not win a title. People talking about who needs to take a backseat to…

  9. ruruland

    formido:
    …who are trolling hard.

    I love Lin. We all love Lin’s story. But he does need to take a backseat to Melo, and he needs to change his mindset. he needs to be a distributor and an opportunity scorer. He’s fully capable of doing that, and that’s what the team needs him to do when he comes back.

  10. jon abbey

    “Lin haters in the game thread getting bizarre. Not a top 50 pg in the league despite being top 40 in +/- and PER amongst all player?”

    if you mean me, I said they’ve been winning without a top 50 pg, Lin hasn’t been playing. he is certainly a top 50 PG, although I will be surprised if he is ever an All-Star on merit.

  11. Ben R

    ruruland: I love Lin. We all love Lin’s story. But he does need to take a backseat to Melo, and he needs to change his mindset. he needs to be a distributor and an opportunity scorer. He’s fully capable of doing that, and that’s what the team needs him to do when he comes back.

    I don’t understand the idea that Lin is a score first PG. He has averaged under 15 shots per 36, which is 5th on the team, this season and that is including his linsanity stretch where he was the primary scorer.

    Lin was taking a backseat to both Melo and Amare before they both went down and we still want Lin being aggressive and attacking the basket. I don’t see why Lin and Anthony cannot coexist without either having to make huge changes to their games. In a perfect world Lin takes the third most shots on our team after Amare and Melo.

  12. ruruland

    Ben R: I don’t understand the idea that Lin is a score first PG. He has averaged under 15 shots per 36, which is 5th on the team, this season and that is including his linsanity stretch where he was the primary scorer.

    Lin was taking a backseat to both Melo and Amare before they both went down and we still want Lin being aggressive and attacking the basket. I don’t see why Lin and Anthony cannot coexist without either having to make huge changes to their games. In a perfect world Lin takes the third most shots on our team after Amare and Melo.

    Ok, pace aside, here are some interesting numbers.

    Chris ball-in-hands every possession Paul: 14.4/ 4.6 fta/shots per 36 19 shots per 36
    Tony Parker: 16.6/5.4 fta 21.9 total shots per 36
    Deron Williams:17.3/5.4 22.7 total shots per 36
    Steve Nash: 10.2/2.5
    Rondo 10.7/3.4

    Lin:14.7/7.0 21.7 totals shots per 36

    Billups is around 18.5 to 19.5 shots per 36

    Rose is 23-24.

    So, yes, among point guards, Lin clearly has a scorers mentality. That’s not what this team needs. He needs to orchestrate the offense which means 1)getting role players early touches 2)getting Amar’e going 3)Let the offense run through Melo often — and play off of it 4) scoring as a last resort, scoring on easy opportunity.

    The more Lin passes, the easier his opportunities will be.

  13. ruruland

    It’s the kind of offensive mismatch for which Rivers said there are only two comparables.

    “you’d put him, Kevin Durant and Dirk [Nowitzki] maybe in a category by themselves,” Rivers said.

    Why do NBA coaches keep saying stupid things like this, Owen?

  14. The Infamous Cdiggy

    Ben R: I don’t understand the idea that Lin is a score first PG. He has averaged under 15 shots per 36, which is 5th on the team, this season and that is including his linsanity stretch where he was the primary scorer.

    Lin was taking a backseat to both Melo and Amare before they both went down and we still want Lin being aggressive and attacking the basket. I don’t see why Lin and Anthony cannot coexist without either having to make huge changes to their games. In a perfect world Lin takes the third most shots on our team after Amare and Melo.

    Cosigned.
    During the Linsanity streak, I’d wager that if he didn’t score like he did, the Knicks don’t have that win streak. D’Antoni AND Jeffires came out and said that he was scoring within the offense. As much success Melo has had being the focal point of the offense, you need Lin to drive to the hole a few times to suck in the D almost the way the D gets sucked in when Melo drives (like tonight).

  15. ruruland

    The Infamous Cdiggy: Cosigned.
    During the Linsanity streak, I’d wager that if he didn’t score like he did, the Knicks don’t have that win streak.D’Antoni AND Jeffires came out and said that he was scoring within the offense.As much success Melo has had being the focal point of the offense, you need Lin to drive to the hole a few times to suck in the D almost the way the D gets sucked in when Melo drives (like tonight).

    Oh, Lin needed to be a scorer with Melo out and Amar’e not right. We want Lin to be very aggressive driving. We want a lot of pick and rolls. But it’s best for the team if Lin focuses on driving and kicking, driving and probing for teammates jumpers — especially Amar’e.

    And of course he was scoring within the offense; that offense was designed for the point guard to make all the plays.

  16. Brian Cronin

    What do you think is closer to the truth? Novak has improved this season or other teams didn’t get the most out of Novak in the past? Jeff Van Gundy said he was the best three-point shooter he had ever seen, and that was, like, six years ago he said that.

  17. ghost of Darko

    I like Lin – his rise from the fringes is a great story. I love his heart & his toughness and how quickly he has adapted while learning the most difficult position on the floor (especially given that he played primarily SG in college). he doesn’t have a future as primary scorer PG (a la Rose) and needs to greatly improve his orchestration skills.

    Melo & Amare are past the point of being able to wait for a PG’s maturation. MSG has strong financial incentives to keep Lin. ‘Melo at the 4′ is fool’s gold. Melo will post great numbers & that team will get crushed on the boards. A weak rebounding Celtics squad masked that weakness tonite. Chicago & Miami made it very clear.

    based on how his Hawks teams played, I would’ve never thought Woodson to be as good a coach as he’s been in this stint with the Knicks. now if he can just get Shumpert to eliminate the 1-2 transition pull-up 3s he launches nightly, he’ll be in line for coach of the year.

  18. Basketcase

    Yes, trade Lin. Please please please trade him.

    At 23, Lin’s career-high point score in a game is 38. At 28, Novak’s is 25. So, trade Lin.

    Lin brings it virtually game after game after game, and 4th quarter after 4th quarter after 4th quarter. Depending on his teammates and the opposition, Novak is perfectly capable of “disappearing” for entire games. So, trade Lin.

    Lin sells out arenas everywhere he plays. Novak can’t even sell out Milwaukee. So, trade Lin.

    Yeah, good luck trying to convince a Harvard guy with an economics degree he’s not worth even $5m after he’s helped his organization make at least tens of millions of dollars in his few short months with them – all while drawing a league-minimum salary. LOL.

  19. Robtachi

    Honestly, I can’t understand how this is even a debate. I’ll blame it on not being able to see Lin play in a while.

    Jeremy Lin is an absolute steal as a starting PG for $5 million/year.
    Steve Novak is an overvalued role player for $5 million/year.

    I love ‘em both, but you’re talking about a guy who gives you 35 high quality minutes and the brain stem of your offense versus 20 minutes of the part of the offense that remembers hot chicks’ names.

  20. David Crockett

    Brian Cronin:
    What do you think is closer to the truth? Novak has improved this season or other teams didn’t get the most out of Novak in the past? Jeff Van Gundy said he was the best three-point shooter he had ever seen, and that was, like, six years ago he said that.

    My impression is that he doesn’t have the athleticism and footwork to consistently run off screens like Kyle Korver, and a lot of offenses get their 3pt shots off staggered screens. Novak is a pure shooter, but only off the penetrate-and-kick or very simple plays. He fits really well in this offense.

  21. Frank

    Re: the whole Lin topic: the anti-Lin people must be joking. The dude makes the minimum and is a top 10 PG and top 37 overall by PER. He’s a second year player who is coachable, wants to do all the right things, has made unbelievable progress in his game through hard work over just one offseason, and whose teammates love him. What in the world do you want? He’s an absolute steal at 4-5MM/year especially if you consider guys like Wilson Chandler (also signed to a contract in this CBA climate) are making ~$8MM per year averaging 9 points and 5 rebounds on 40% FG and TS 44.5. And that was considered a GOOD signing by the media types!

    Re: Melo – this stretch is why he is considered a max player by just about everyone not posting on KB or Denver’s equivalent– not because he plays like a max player all the time, but that his CEILING is just much higher than 98% of the other players in this league. Yes, he should bring this kind of intensity and all-around play every night all year long, but for all we know, he just needed a coach like Woodson to really make him thrive.

    I think it’s totally fair to worry that the whole thing will fall apart once Amare gets back. It’s probably not a coincidence that these #s exist:

    Woodson-era Melo:
    With Amare (7 games): 17.5 pts/36, 6.8 reb/36, 4.6 a/36, 47% TS
    Without Amare (12 games): 29.7 p/36, 7.6 r/36, 3.3 a/36, 58.7% TS

    And that’s with the schedule getting much tougher in the “without Amare” sample.

    So let’s just say I’m glad that we will have a few games to work this out before the playoffs start. Hollinger playoff odds up to 98.8%!

  22. Frank

    btw – in the final analysis on the Melo trade, it looked something like this:

    NYK send out Felton, Gallo, Wilson Chandler, Randolph, Mozgov, Curry’s contract, and 2014 #1 pick (and any chance of landing DWill or DH12, which may have been zero anyway)

    NYK gets Tyson Chandler (after Billups amnesty) and Melo

    At this point more than 1 season in, the trade actually looks more like:

    NYK sends out Gallo, 2014 #1 pick, Curry’s contract, and filler (and bad filler at that)

    NYK gets possible/should-be DPOY Tyson Chandler who also happens to have the highest FG% and TS% since Wilt Chamberlain, and Carmelo Anthony, who is playing completely out of his mind, and looks every bit the max player (for now).

    Given how awesome Chandler is, I think it’s a no-brainer. This (in the final analysis) was an excellent trade for the Knicks.

  23. Frank

    A couple last thoughts from last night’s game –

    I hate to say it, but that’s the kind of game D’Antoni’s Knicks lose in the 4th quarter. Just imagine this board if we had lost that game after that ridiculous shooting display in the 2nd quarter.

    That being said – that might be the first time I’ve seen Boston look demoralized on defense. Our Offensive efficiency was 137 last night – and granted we made a ton of 3′s, but the vast majority of them were WIDE OPEN. Guys like JR and Novak SHOULD hit 70% of wide open 3′s. Our spacing last night was just awesome – from all the open 3′s to all the times Tyson dove to the rack on the PNR and had nothing but daylight. Seriously – he would receive the pass outside the free throw line and have two steps and a dunk with no one nearby. And that’s the best defense in the league!

  24. Brian Cronin

    NYK gets Tyson Chandler (after Billups amnesty) and Melo

    You cannot factor Chandler into the trade. They could have gotten Chandler without the trade.

  25. JLam

    obv both Lin and Novak are underpaid this year. The OP was simply asking who to give the MLE to. It would be great to keep both of them next year but if it comes down to the numbers I rather have Lin. He younger , and has a higher ceiling IMO. Even if Lin plays half descently (not to Linsanity quality) he would be valuable in a trade. I doubt Novak would have the same trade value.

  26. JC Knickfan

    Not signing Lin to MLE is one stupidest thing on board. There many teams that cannot fill the stand in their arena. Even at average player Lin going to be very good financial commodity.
    I doubt Dolan let cashcow go, but Lin can be easily traded.

    These obvious trade that I easily could see happen if Knicks willing let Lin go.
    1) Nash resign (3 year $10 million) with Phoenix then trades for Lin (5mil) and Fields (5 mil). All Lin and Fields haters would love this.
    2) D William (If he willing come to NYC) & A. Morrow for Lin and Stat (has to included to make salaries work).
    3) Rondo for Lin, Fields and Shump. Rondo probably best fit for team.

  27. jon abbey

    JC Knickfan:
    Not signing Lin to MLE is one stupidest thing on board. There many teams that cannot fill the stand in their arena. Even at average player Lin going to be very good financial commodity.I doubt Dolan let cashcow go, but Lin can be easily traded.

    These obvious trade that I easily could see happen if Knicks willing let Lin go.
    1) Nash resign(3 year $10 million) with Phoenix then trades for Lin (5mil) and Fields (5 mil). All Lin and Fields haters would love this.
    2) D William (If he willing come to NYC) & A. Morrow for Lin and Stat (has to included to make salaries work).
    3) Rondo for Lin, Fields and Shump.Rondo probably best fit for team.

    all of these trades would be fantastic, although I’d hate to lose Shumpie. any of those deals make NY at least a second round playoff team next year, and a much more legitimate playoff contender (particularly the first two).

  28. soultrane

    JC Knickfan:

    2) D William (If he willing come to NYC) & A. Morrow for Lin and Stat (has to included to make salaries work).

    Had to register on this site just to reply to this comment. As a Nets fan, I would never ever want Amare. And I can’t imagine any team would agree to take him and that monster contract on. I think the Knicks are stuck with him for the life of the deal, sorry to say.

  29. Brian Cronin

    all of these trades would be fantastic, although I’d hate to lose Shumpie. any of those deals make NY at least a second round playoff team next year, and a much more legitimate playoff contender (particularly the first two).

    If you like those trades, then why not just advocate not re-signing Lin and trying to get Nash with the MLE?

  30. jon abbey

    Brian Cronin: If you like those trades, then why not just advocate not re-signing Lin and trying to get Nash with the MLE?

    because this way gets rid of Fields too, and I never have to see him play again? :)

    none of those deals are happening anyway.

  31. Brian Cronin

    Ha! Do you really think it is that much of a foregone conclusion? I mean, if it is, good for him (good city, his hometown, good, if old, teammates), but I can’t help but wonder if there isn’t a better fit for him. He’ll pretty much have his pick of the litter.

  32. briand

    Is there an actual debate going on about giving the MLE to Lin or Novak? Have people seen our PG play recently?!?

  33. TelegraphedPass

    @37 I’m not sure there is a better fit out there. He obviously wants to win a ring as quickly as possible. He’s been overshadowed by Chris Paul his entire pro career. A ring would change that, especially in the eyes of more casual fans.

    The only team I could see him considering above Dallas is whatever team wins the Unibrow lottery this summer. Assuming the team has cap space, and isn’t miraculously the Warriors or something…

  34. soultrane

    TelegraphedPass:
    @37 I’m not sure there is a better fit out there. He obviously wants to win a ring as quickly as possible. He’s been overshadowed by Chris Paul his entire pro career. A ring would change that, especially in the eyes of more casual fans.

    The only team I could see him considering above Dallas is whatever team wins the Unibrow lottery this summer. Assuming the team has cap space, and isn’t miraculously the Warriors or something…

    No way he goes to the team that drafts Anthony Davis. The odds are likely that one of Charlotte, New Orleans, Washington, or Cleveland will be winning the lottery. Why would Deron leave one losing team for another? None of those teams, even with Williams and Davis, will be anywhere close to competing for a championship or even a top seed in the near future. Not to mention Washington and Cleveland already have 1st and 2nd year PG prospects.

    Williams wants to win now. Dallas seems like a natural fit.

  35. Frank

    Brian Cronin: You cannot factor Chandler into the trade. They could have gotten Chandler without the trade.

    Tough to say that for sure. If my memory serves me correctly, even after Curry’s $ came off the cap, the Knicks were on the hook for about $51M in contracts in 11-12 if you include cap holds and options. The salary cap this year is $58M. To get down to $44M we would have had to release some combination of TD, Gallo, Wilson Chandler, Bill Walker, and Randolph. It could’ve been done (i.e.. drop TD’s 1.1, Wilson’s 3.1, Randolph’s 2.9) but that would have left us with Felton, Fields, Gallo, Amare, Chandler, and little else. That’s not remotely close to a championship-caliber core, and I feel pretty confident that Chandler would not have come to join that core considering the $ was probably equivalent (roughly) in GSW.

    I’m happy to use Billups in the analysis because getting him DIRECTLY led to getting Chandler.

  36. TelegraphedPass

    @41 Sacramento has a higher chance of winning the lottery than Cleveland does right now. And Portland has two picks in the lottery. If either of those teams win: Is Dirk+maybe another new-max guy+Rick Carlisle+filler better than years of contention alongside a frontcourt duo of DMC and Unibrow? Or LMA+Unibrow+another lottery pick+Luke Babbitt?

  37. Brian Cronin

    Tough to say that for sure. If my memory serves me correctly, even after Curry’s $ came off the cap, the Knicks were on the hook for about $51M in contracts in 11-12 if you include cap holds and options.

    The Knicks’s salary cap for the 2011/12 season if they didn’t do the trade (counting Chandler’s cap hold) would be $48 million. the same amount of cap room they had after amnestying Billups.

    Gallo: $4.2
    Felton: $7
    Amar’e: $18.2
    Chandler: $6.4
    Turiaf: $4
    Randolph: $3
    Douglas: $1.2
    Walker: $0.9
    Fields: $0.7
    Shump: $1.5
    Rautins: $0.7
    11 spots/$47.8
    (You don’t count the final cap hold, since Chandler would be taking that spot, but if you did, $0.5)

    You cannot count Chandler as part of the trade, as Billups’ salary did not help them get Chandler.

  38. Thomas B.

    I like when the recaps pair subtle humor with solid insight. This was a good example of that. Nice work, Jim.

  39. New Guy

    soultrane: Had to register on this site just to reply to this comment. As a Nets fan, I would never ever want Amare. And I can’t imagine any team would agree to take him and that monster contract on. I think the Knicks are stuck with him for the life of the deal, sorry to say.

    I think you’re right. But I also think Nets fans are smarter than the Nets GM and owner, so you never know.

    Re: Lin, I would sign and trade him. He has a tremendous value that exceeds his basketball ability. Let’s say he’s a 3 star player, you can trade him for a 4 star player because of Lin’s off the court value. I don’t give a **** about anyone’s off the court value. A team that’s already mega-rich, but desperate to win a title, should look into trading that off court value for on court success.

  40. TelegraphedPass

    New Guy: I think you’re right. But I also think Nets fans are smarter than the Nets GM and owner, so you never know.Re: Lin, I would sign and trade him. He has a tremendous value that exceeds his basketball ability. Let’s say he’s a 3 star player, you can trade him for a 4 star player because of Lin’s off the court value. I don’t give a **** about anyone’s off the court value. A team that’s already mega-rich, but desperate to win a title, should look into trading that off court value for on court success.

    See, now you have to explain why he’s a “3 star player though.”

    I’ve liked Lin since his Golden State days. I was begging for him to get burn at the start of the season. I like the kid a lot, so undue slander makes me raise and eyebrow.

    Even if the scoring was a fluke (please tell me why it was if you think so), can you explain why his assist percentage ranks sixth in the league amongst qualified PGs? (Just behind Chris Paul)

    He’s always generated a ton of steals, so that’s one thing we pretty much know isn’t fake.

  41. TelegraphedPass

    Jeremy is lowkey big as heck, by the way. He measured a legit 6’3″ WITHOUT shoes. This makes him taller than such names like John Wall, Russell Westbrook, Deron Williams, Steph Curry, Kyrie Irving, and Derrick Rose. He’s also registered a low body fat percentage at the Knicks practice facility, and was officially weighted at over 200 pounds before the season started.

    Now, it’s important to realize his wingspan is very average at 6’5″. This is less than all the above names (except Kyrie Irving) and wingspan is almost more important than height when talking about things like defensive potential.

    However, it’s about time we all realize Jeremy isn’t out there being “craftier” than opposing PGs. He’s bigger and stronger than most. That’s why he finishes so many And-1s at the rim.

  42. The Infamous Cdiggy

    Brian Cronin: The Knicks’s salary cap for the 2011/12 season if they didn’t do the trade (counting Chandler’s cap hold) would be $48 million. the same amount of cap room they had after amnestying Billups.

    Gallo: $4.2
    Felton: $7
    Amar’e: $18.2
    Chandler: $6.4
    Turiaf: $4
    Randolph: $3
    Douglas: $1.2
    Walker: $0.9
    Fields: $0.7
    Shump: $1.5
    Rautins: $0.7
    11 spots/$47.8
    (You don’t count the final cap hold, since Chandler would be taking that spot, but if you did, $0.5)

    You cannot count Chandler as part of the trade, as Billups’ salary did not help them get Chandler.

    On the #s, it looks like you’re right. It also would’ve been sweeter if they could’ve acquired Chandler via a sign’n'trade scenario that would’ve involved shipping Billups to preserve the amnesty. There’s also the question – yet again – if Melo made the Knicks a more attractive destination for someone like Chandler vs. say Golden State. I know there was a huge back-and-forth on that many threads ago. I think it’s one of those things that while you cannot say for certain that the question is legit, you also can’t say with any certainty that it’s not legit.

  43. The Infamous Cdiggy

    chrisk06811:
    nobody’s bitched about missing timmy mosgov in a while.

    lmao that’s a +1 for me, because I thought he was the “one-guy-too-many” they gave up to get Melo.

  44. Brian Cronin

    On the #s, it looks like you’re right. It also would’ve been sweeter if they could’ve acquired Chandler via a sign’n’trade scenario that would’ve involved shipping Billups to preserve the amnesty. There’s also the question – yet again – if Melo made the Knicks a more attractive destination for someone like Chandler vs. say Golden State. I know there was a huge back-and-forth on that many threads ago. I think it’s one of those things that while you cannot say for certain that the question is legit, you also can’t say with any certainty that it’s not legit.

    I think I can say with close to near certainty that Tyson Chandler comes to play for the Knicks this season Melo or no Melo if they paid him the money they’re paying him now. What possible reason would he have to take less money (or even equal money, presuming Golden State upped their offer) to play in Golden State for a worse team in a harder conference? But sure, I can’t say it to an absolute certainty.

    But while I can’t say it to a certainty, it sure as heck can’t be argued the other way to work in Chandler as being part of the trade. It is not like the trade can’t be argued on the merits of the actual trade, so why get into this unsupportable extra stuff?

  45. The Infamous Cdiggy

    TelegraphedPass:
    Jeremy is lowkey big as heck, by the way. He measured a legit 6’3? WITHOUT shoes. This makes him taller than such names like John Wall, Russell Westbrook, Deron Williams, Steph Curry, Kyrie Irving, and Derrick Rose. He’s also registered a low body fat percentage at the Knicks practice facility, and was officially weighted at over 200 pounds before the season started.

    Now, it’s important to realize his wingspan is very average at 6’5?. This is less than all the above names (except Kyrie Irving) and wingspan is almost more important than height when talking about things like defensive potential.

    However, it’s about time we all realize Jeremy isn’t out there being “craftier” than opposing PGs. He’s bigger and stronger than most. That’s why he finishes so many And-1s at the rim.

    This is an easily forgotten nugget. He has pretty darn good size for his position, and that cannot be discounted. Good point about the wingspan; I don’t ever expect him to be a defensive demon, but don’t be a complete matador either. Mark Jackson was never known for his D but he carved out quite a career…

    …speaking of which, does anyone find it funny that someone not known for their career D gets a coaching gig with a notorious run-n-gun franchise, only to talk about building a defensive-oriented team??? Anyone???

  46. New Guy

    TelegraphedPass: See, now you have to explain why he’s a “3 star player though.”

    No, I don’t. The point is that no matter how you rate him as a player, he has a trade value that exceeds his on court value.

  47. chrisk06811

    sadly, i guess the only way to second guess the melo trade now is to question if we should have held fields out. i just hope he’s a hard enough worker to get back on pace this summer.

  48. TelegraphedPass

    New Guy: No, I don’t. The point is that no how you rate him as a player, he has a trade value that exceeds his on court value.

    Yeah, you’re right. You don’t have to do anything. I just ask because I have particular interest in the young lad Jeremy.

    My point, however, is that his on-court value has been significantly beyond what you’re expressing. You say he has tremendous value that exceeds his basketball ability. I cry, “False!”

    Especially considering the dire need for a point guard to run the team, who is better suited for it at comparable financial value than Jeremy Lin?

  49. JC Knickfan

    Brian Cronin: If you like those trades, then why not just advocate not re-signing Lin and trying to get Nash with the MLE?

    This Nash last contract I guess he will not take Knicks MLE. He made 11 million this year and not really slowing down. If he really wanted a ring, I guess Miami make most sense. If want most money he probably just stay in Phoenix. So only way Knicks give him same amount of money is sign trade route.

  50. JC Knickfan

    TelegraphedPass:
    Jeremy is lowkey big as heck, by the way. He measured a legit 6’3? WITHOUT shoes. This makes him taller than such names like John Wall, Russell Westbrook, Deron Williams, Steph Curry, Kyrie Irving, and Derrick Rose. He’s also registered a low body fat percentage at the Knicks practice facility, and was officially weighted at over 200 pounds before the season started.

    Now, it’s important to realize his wingspan is very average at 6’5?. This is less than all the above names (except Kyrie Irving) and wingspan is almost more important than height when talking about things like defensive potential.

    However, it’s about time we all realize Jeremy isn’t out there being “craftier” than opposing PGs. He’s bigger and stronger than most. That’s why he finishes so many And-1s at the rim.

    In the Indy game Lin totally outsized Darren Collison. He definitely one of the bigger PG.
    I personal role dice and play out this lineup next year.
    TC, Amare, Melo, Shump and Lin

  51. Frank

    Brian Cronin: The Knicks’s salary cap for the 2011/12 season if they didn’t do the trade (counting Chandler’s cap hold) would be $48 million. the same amount of cap room they had after amnestying Billups.

    Gallo: $4.2
    Felton: $7
    Amar’e: $18.2
    Chandler: $6.4
    Turiaf: $4
    Randolph: $3
    Douglas: $1.2
    Walker: $0.9
    Fields: $0.7
    Shump: $1.5
    Rautins: $0.7
    11 spots/$47.8
    (You don’t count the final cap hold, since Chandler would be taking that spot, but if you did, $0.5)

    You cannot count Chandler as part of the trade, as Billups’ salary did not help them get Chandler.

    You left out Mozgov, so with his 3+M salary it would have come to 51M.

    Correct me if I’m wrong also, but TC’s salary this year is about 13.2, so if the cap is 58, then we would have needed to get down to 44.8 to sign him (not 48).

    Whatever. The point is that it is not at all clear that the Melo trade was a bad trade at this point. Yes, we threw in stuff (like the 14 pick and the 16 pick swap) that we shouldn’t have, and I guess you could make the argument that guys like Anthony Randolph could have brought picks back in trade even though he has been unable to crack the rotation of 3 (very accomplished) coaches. But there’s no way that we end up with Melo and Tyson without that trade. Would we rather have had Chris Paul or DWill in 12-13 than Melo? Maybe, but again, we had already been through that whole putting our eggs in one hypothetical basket thing in 2010 with LBJ.

  52. New Guy

    TelegraphedPass: Yeah, you’re right. You don’t have to do anything. I just ask because I have particular interest in the young lad Jeremy.

    My point, however, is that his on-court value has been significantly beyond what you’re expressing. You say he has tremendous value that exceeds his basketball ability. I cry, “False!”

    Especially considering the dire need for a point guard to run the team, who is better suited for it at comparable financial value than Jeremy Lin?

    I don’t think you’re following me. I rate Jeremy Lin very highly as a player. But his non-basketball value is off the charts.

  53. Nick C.

    New Guy: But his non-basketball value is off the charts.

    You’re talking about the oodles of Asian people that were going to games home and road and the opportunity selling crap to them and in China/Taiwan.

  54. TelegraphedPass

    New Guy: I don’t think you’re following me. I rate Jeremy Lin very highly as a player. But his non-basketball value is off the charts.

    No, I get that. Your suggestion is to sign&trade him for a superior player, and his off-court value is supposed to bolster that proposal to another team.

    My question then becomes: Who?

    As I said, who gives us as much benefit for a similar price?

  55. JR Sec 112

    TelegraphedPass: No, I get that. Your suggestion is to sign&trade him for a superior player, and his off-court value is supposed to bolster that proposal to another team.

    My question then becomes: Who?

    As I said, who gives us as much benefit for a similar price?

    Easy answer: no one in the league. I would do the research for all the stats if this argument was worth it, but frankly its not. Lin’s worth 8-10m on the open market right now. We’d have to match salaries in a trade, so the only way we get equal value is if we ship off Amare (our most overpaid player) in the deal. If someone comes up with something reasonable with those two guys, maybe we could entertain it.

    The only way you win in this league is gaming the salary cap by having guys who are worth way more than they are being paid. Guys like Lebron and Wade, who on the open market would be worth way more than the max. Its a tribute to how bad Miami’s front office has been that they cant even get a reasonable supporting cast for them.

    For the first time in a very, very long time (since we had Camby and Spree on below market deals), we have some underpaid assets – namely Lin and Shump. They are fortunately offsetting Amare’s deal. Chandler at this rate may also actually be worth the max.

    We have a real shot next couple of years with the Lin, Shump, TC, and Melo core intact if we can fill out the rest of the lineup. And we are just stuck with Amare, which is bad, but could be worse (like paying Hedo more than $10mn…..)

  56. New Guy

    JR Sec 112: Easy answer:no one in the league.

    5 off the top of my head:

    John Wall
    George Hill
    Ricky Rubio
    Stephen Curry
    Kyrie Irving

    All make the same $ as Lin, all better players. Not saying the Wizards are dumb enough to trade John Wall for Jeremy Lin, but….actually….they might be. Same with that idiot in Cleveland.

  57. New Guy

    Of course, there’s really no point in this. There are (I’m sure) stupid owners in this league who would sacrifice a superior player for the opportunity to start selling out his arena immediately and to open revenue streams in China by selling broadcast rights.

    Unfortunately, ours is one of them.

  58. Jafa

    I highly doubt John Wall and George Hill are better than Lin. Rubio, Curry and Irving I can buy.

  59. TelegraphedPass

    Jafa: I highly doubt John Wall and George Hill are better than Lin. Rubio, Curry and Irving I can buy.

    Wall wasn’t better this year, but it’s pretty safe to assume he should produce at least as well as Lin moving forward.

    I’m not buying George Hill > Lin without some support though.

  60. Brian Cronin

    My apologies, I was thinking of the young Paul George.

    Phew. I was really wondering there. I mean, no offense to George Hill or anything, but still…

  61. plastic pails

    The Knick Blogger helps us to get the latest updates of the matches & player details. I liked the blog. personally I like the Five Things that are mentioned.Thanks for sharing with us these information.

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