Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Friday, August 29, 2014

Knicks 113, Hawks 112

New York Knicks 113 Final
Recap | Box Score
112 Atlanta Hawks
Carmelo Anthony, SF 42 MIN | 14-32 FG | 8-9 FT | 10 REB | 2 AST | 39 PTS | +6

Melo provided yet another sterling performance, continuing a run of basketball in April that’s almost made me forget he also got his coach fired this season. (Zing!) In all truthfulness, it was Melo’s offensive prowess, intensity, and hustle (10 boards) that allowed the Knicks to eke out a win despite the absence of defensive stalwart Tyson Chandler. Bravo.

Landry Fields, G 30 MIN | 7-8 FG | 1-1 FT | 4 REB | 1 AST | 18 PTS | +6

Today, Landry Fields looked like a good basketball player. Wait, what? I’m pretty sure the last time someone tweeted “Get Landry the rock!” was last January. Knicks fans can only hope that making all three of his 3pt attempts is a sign that he has won back the favor of the basketball gods, as opposed to being a statistical blip likely to vanish into the numerical ether. I’ll sacrifice two matrices and a quadratic equation tonight, just in case.

Amare Stoudemire, PF 34 MIN | 9-13 FG | 4-8 FT | 12 REB | 0 AST | 22 PTS | -6

Amar’e Stoudemire, today you also looked like a good basketball player. While shooting 50% from the charity stripe is a major no-no, an efficient 22pts on 13shots would be a very acceptable new normal in the Melo-centric offense. It’s worth bringing up that Marvin Williams only had the chance to dunk it for the win because he blew past Amar’e, but hey, as long as Amar’e doesn’t look like he needs back surgery before the next quarter starts, it’s a win.

Baron Davis, PG 31 MIN | 5-9 FG | 0-0 FT | 1 REB | 10 AST | 13 PTS | -1

At one point in the game Baron and ATLPG Jeff Teague got into it a little bit, causing Doris Burke to explain that Teague was risking Baron getting an “adrenaline rush” and raising his level of play. That’s funny, because if I were a member of an opposing team, I’m pretty sure my first strategy would be to get Baron as high on adrenaline as possible, then watch him shoot the Knicks out of the game. However, Baron’s shooting percentages and 10ast for the game were quite respectable, so what do I know. As the other ESPN announcer (he doesn’t have Doris Burke status yet) remarked, “Baron, looking like the Old Baron Davis! As opposed to an old Baron Davis.”

Iman Shumpert, G 36 MIN | 4-8 FG | 2-2 FT | 3 REB | 3 AST | 11 PTS | 0

Shump-Shump I love you, but you’re bringing me down. You made a key defensive play in the final seconds, denying Joe Johnson the ball on Atlanta’s last possession, and that was Shumptastic. However, for the second straight game your defensive intensity was barely felt throughout the first three quarters. Solid performance, but let’s get back to being the defensive standout you are.

Mike Bibby, PG 6 MIN | 0-0 FG | 0-0 FT | 0 REB | 1 AST | 0 PTS | -5

Look at that stat line, and soak in the blissful existence of Mike Bibby.

Steve Novak, SF 20 MIN | 1-1 FG | 0-0 FT | 0 REB | 0 AST | 3 PTS | -2

I am really beginning to be annoyed with how few shot attempts Novak is getting. Some of this is undoubtedly other teams preparing for his long-range barrage, but more plays should be run with “Novak shooting the 3″ as the strongly preferred second option. The Knicks have the best three point shooter in the league. Use him!

J.R. Smith, SG 32 MIN | 3-7 FG | 0-0 FT | 4 REB | 4 AST | 7 PTS | +2

JR was pretty average JR today. Hit a key 3 in the fourth quarter, missed four other attempts. I’ll use this space to comment on the difference between JR’s perceived status as a weak defender versus his obvious intensity, energy, and ability on defense this season for the Knicks. What gives? Was he really not trying in Denver, or did the scheme simply make him look bad? I have never been disappointed with JR’s effort for the ‘Bockers, and for someone who has been known as both a sieve and a bit of a head case, that’s quite a compliment.

Josh Harrellson, F 7 MIN | 0-1 FG | 0-0 FT | 3 REB | 0 AST | 0 PTS | +7

The Hawks, after observing the Knicks’ small lineups, decided they were quite willing to play without post players either, meaning that Jorts got very little burn. That Knicks-Clippers game can’t come soon enough. If Jorts doesn’t play more soon, he’s a likely suspect to tie some poor damsel to the tracks of the 2 line beneath MSG.

Three Things We Saw

  1. Tyson Chandler did not play, Amar’e Stoudemire played center, Amar’e played well. Landry Fields also played well with the increased floor spacing this lineup provided. There are two tasks at hand for Coach Mike Woodson as he prepares for the playoffs. First, designing plays that let the Knicks put points on the board even with the cramped spacing an Anthony-Stoudemire-Chandler lineup provides. Second, picking out lineups for the middle of the game that keep only two of those three on the court at any given moment. Two suggestions for lineups that I think could work quite well: Baron-JR-Shump-Anthony-Stoudemire; Any point guard-Shump-Novak-Anthony-Chandler. You can look up the effectiveness of the lineups here. The first one did well in extremely limited minutes. For the second, almost any combination including the trio of Anthony, Novak, and Chandler has been successful.
  2. It’s ironic that a demonstration of why the Knicks have a better chance against the Bulls than the Heat may also ensure that the Knicks play the Heat instead of the Bulls. On that last play, watching Iman deny Joe Johnson the ball, I couldn’t help but think, “If the Knicks just kept itclose against the Bulls, Chicago’s late-game offense- ALL DROSE ALL TIME- would struggle against Shumpert’s isolation lockdown.” While Miami can be guilty of going to iso late in games as well, they also have the liberty of choosing from between either James or Wade, and could simply swing it to whoever Shumpert is not guarding. Additionally, James or Wade running the P’n'R with Bosh is likely to expose Amar’e's poor defense and create huge problems for the Knicks D, whereas while the Bulls could do the same thing, their big men are not of Chris Bosh’s quality (limited quality that may be.) Perhaps this is all irrelevant, as the win today likely solidified Knicks into the #7 spot. Ticket scalpers across Manhattan rejoice.
  3. Tyson Chandler absolutely should be the Defensive Player of the Year- who else do you know that can shut down two teams’ offenses at the same time? Kidding, kidding; the Knicks are undoubtedly better with Tyson roaming the paint, and hopefully sitting this game out gets him well-rested for the start of the playoffs. Receiving DPOY would be a fitting consolation prize for getting absolutely robbed of an All-Star team placement as well.

198 comments on “Knicks 113, Hawks 112

  1. LMNYKFAN4LIFE

    great recap. but i think Amare should have had an a, melo an a+ and fileds a b+. just the fact that fields scored 18 points and was efficient from the fields, stealing the ball and doing the reverse gives him at least a b+ and melo was melo today carrying the team, and while your right about the free throws and some shoty d at times Amare did have 1 block, alotta bounds, and would have had two blocks if not for the time running out. so an a is in order. if it wasn’t for the foul shots i would have given him an a+

  2. maxwell_3g

    Solid writeup. I agree with you completely with your comments about JR, but i think his grade should be bumped up. he was all over the placed. As for Amare, yes, he shot efficently. But, he had a bunch of turnovers, and in the iso situation off the block, i had no faith in his ability to get by wither josh smith or ivan johnson. He just doesnt have the handles or decision making ability. And his defense!!! Nothing infuriates me more than watching the layup line while amare, who should be the rotating help defender, just watches. Finally the commentators mentioned this (Burke repeatedly, Broussard, magic), Melo is right. the concern should not be offense, it should be defense. A,are gets a C+ at best

  3. LMNYKFAN4LIFE

    Totally agree with this: “Tyson Chandler receiving DPOY would be a fitting consolation prize for getting absolutely robbed of an All-Star team placement as well”.

  4. BigBlueAL

    Best part of today’s game was how good both Amar’e and even BD looked physically today.

    Im going to keep the hope alive that Orlando somehow loses all their remaining games, yes even at home to Charlotte. OK call it a slim hope lol

  5. dgvertz

    About Amar’e's defense being really exposed against the Heat during Chris Bosh pick and rolls:

    Why would we put Amar’e on Bosh at all? Why not put Chandler on Bosh? Shump on Wade, Melo on LeBron, Tyson on Bosh, Amar’e can guard Joel Anthony (who isn’t allowed to take shots anyway, pursuant to Florida law).

    If that means Tyson has to leave Bosh some space on the elbow so that he can cover the paint for LeBron/Wade drives, that’s fine. I’d much rather see Bosh take elbow jumpers than LeBron/Wade/Bosh get open layups all day.

    Am I wrong?

  6. cgreene

    dgvertz:
    About Amar’e’s defense being really exposed against the Heat during Chris Bosh pick and rolls:

    Why would we put Amar’e on Bosh at all? Why not put Chandler on Bosh? Shump on Wade, Melo on LeBron, Tyson on Bosh, Amar’e can guard Joel Anthony (who isn’t allowed to take shots anyway, pursuant to Florida law).

    If that means Tyson has to leave Bosh some space on the elbow so that he can cover the paint for LeBron/Wade drives, that’s fine. I’d much rather see Bosh take elbow jumpers than LeBron/Wade/Bosh get open layups all day.

    Am I wrong?

    Yes. Faster 4′s who play away from the basket have proven to be difficult matchups for Tyson. And one of Tyson’s flaws seems to be overplaying guys away from the rim sometimes. Amare should play Bosh up. We should have Chandler on the Halsem/Anthony/Turiaf poopoo platter so he can roam and stop drives as his sole focus and quarterback the defense instead of worrying about stopping Bosh one on one. Amare should be able to prohibit him from getting a certain amount of open 15 footers. I feel very strongly about this. Tyson should NOT be on Bosh. He has guarded him the last 2 games and Bosh has hurt us both times.

  7. maxwell_3g

    dgvertz:
    About Amar’e’s defense being really exposed against the Heat during Chris Bosh pick and rolls:

    Why would we put Amar’e on Bosh at all? Why not put Chandler on Bosh? Shump on Wade, Melo on LeBron, Tyson on Bosh, Amar’e can guard Joel Anthony (who isn’t allowed to take shots anyway, pursuant to Florida law).

    If that means Tyson has to leave Bosh some space on the elbow so that he can cover the paint for LeBron/Wade drives, that’s fine. I’d much rather see Bosh take elbow jumpers than LeBron/Wade/Bosh get open layups all day.

    Am I wrong?

    i dont know aboutn that plan. i agree that i dont want amare defending the pick and roll, but i also dont want the paint to be left open without tyson roaming free. i think we need tyson in there to play help defense off of joel anthony

    dgvertz:

  8. Gideon Zaga

    You guys still don’t get it, Yes Durant is a better scorer than Melo according to the numbers but when it comes to the scoring abilities, that dynamic talent to be able to score anyway possible, demand double teams and make your team mates better. How can you say Durant is better than Melo, Durant doesn’t play defense, doesnt command doubles and doesn’t even have the passing ability or have the rebounding ability of Carmelo Anthony. But like Melo did previously, Durant plays in a small Market, is likeable and doesn’t get grilled as Melo does and guess what his teams have always been better than Melo’s Denver teams and yet they’ve both only been to the CF and lost. I’m sorry but Kevin Durant is not a better player than Carmelo Anthony, maybe a better scorer but not a better player.

  9. massive

    The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    18 points on 8 shots… and a B+?

    I guess he needed to do a little more glass work to get up to an A-. But I agree, his efficiency should have gotten him an A, especially when he looks like he’s got more groove than Stella again.

  10. nicos

    Chandler played Bosh really well the first game, really poorly the second and the last one wasn’t on him so much as I recall.
    I’d give Fields an A- great to see him actually have a little arc on his jumper. Hopefully he gets on another mini-run like he had midway through the season. One other thing- I Amar’e is going to to play the 5 you absolutely cannot have Novak at the 4. That line-up in the second quarter was awful- Novak is abysmal on the glass and provides zero help as a weakside rotator inside- stuff you need if Amar’e's at the five. Jeffries would be a better fit at the four with Novak at the three.

  11. 2FOR18

    I never complain about the grades, as I’m just thankful for the great write-ups, but do we love Novak so much that he can play 20 mins and gather no stats, other than one 3, and still get a C :)
    Or is that a gentlemen’s C?

  12. JC Knickfan

    If Orlando lose again tonight, this win going to be bittersweet. I going thinking the should have and could have won the Cleveland game.

  13. Bruno Almeida

    Gideon Zaga:
    You guys still don’t get it, Yes Durant is a better scorer than Melo according to the numbers but when it comes to the scoring abilities, that dynamic talent to be able to score anyway possible, demand double teams and make your team mates better. How can you say Durant is better than Melo, Durant doesn’t play defense, doesnt command doubles and doesn’t even have the passing ability or have the rebounding ability of Carmelo Anthony. But like Melo did previously, Durant plays in a small Market, is likeable and doesn’t get grilled as Melo does and guess what his teams have always been better than Melo’s Denver teams and yet they’ve both only been to the CF and lost. I’m sorry but Kevin Durant is not a better player than Carmelo Anthony, maybe a better scorer but not a better player.

    have you ever seen ONE Oklahoma City game?

    Durant gets doubled A LOT against good teams, and he’s averaging 8 rebounds a game, against Melo’s 6.2… and they’re also tied in assists.

  14. 2FOR18

    cgreene: Yes.Faster 4?s who play away from the basket have proven to be difficult matchups for Tyson.And one of Tyson’s flaws seems to be overplaying guys away from the rim sometimes.Amare should play Bosh up.We should have Chandler on the Halsem/Anthony/Turiaf poopoo platter so he can roam and stop drives as his sole focus and quarterback the defense instead of worrying about stopping Bosh one on one.Amare should be able to prohibit him from getting a certain amount of open 15 footers.I feel very strongly about this.Tyson should NOT be on Bosh.He has guarded him the last 2 games and Bosh has hurt us both times.

    I agree. All Amare has to do is score as many points as Bosh and that match-up is fine. Tyson needs to be near the basket doing Tyson things.

  15. StatsTeacher

    To my untrained b-ball eyes, I thought today was close to the beginning of “Woodsanity” when Knicks went 6-1 and Lin, Anthony and STAT were very good. BD still not as good as Lin, but he actually played PG today with some competence.

    So, how many games will “Ron Artest” get for today? — what he did was worse than what Bynum did to Barea last year. I think he’ll get 5 games, but it should be 10. . . . . . .

  16. Gideon Zaga

    I think JR’s play defensively shows that coaches really matter in this game. That’s why I still hold hope for Amare, no wander Melo’s defense under Dantoni and under Woodson is like night and day. Coaches set the culture of the team and push the talent of their players. I agree that Karl made Melo the dynamic weapon he is today but he never required defense from him. Same way he cast JR as an outcast and didn’t even bother to require efficiency or defense from him. Look at fields, he’s also been improving under Woodson, I remember Woodson asking him to be confident enough to take the shots. Coaches matter but coaching is also a talent not only off the floor but also in game and even in the off season. Another example is Ryan Anderson, never known as a good rebounder but displays effort on the boards after SVG criticizes him. Same with Bass, different role in Orlando, different role in Boston. But there are also players who don’t have the talent to be dynamic as their coaches would require, I think Galo comes to mind with this, I think Karl has gotten what he can out of him, he’s not a superstar but an efficient shooter and defender but not talented to be the guy. I think JR’s best days are ahead of him he has the talent to be dynamic on both ends. In the words of Herm Edwards: “you’re either coaching it or letting it happen”. As I wrote this Kobe just clutched it.

  17. 2FOR18

    Gideon Zaga:
    You guys still don’t get it, Yes Durant is a better scorer than Melo according to the numbers but when it comes to the scoring abilities, that dynamic talent to be able to score anyway possible, demand double teams and make your team mates better. How can you say Durant is better than Melo, Durant doesn’t play defense, doesnt command doubles and doesn’t even have the passing ability or have the rebounding ability of Carmelo Anthony. But like Melo did previously, Durant plays in a small Market, is likeable and doesn’t get grilled as Melo does and guess what his teams have always been better than Melo’s Denver teams and yet they’ve both only been to the CF and lost. I’m sorry but Kevin Durant is not a better player than Carmelo Anthony, maybe a better scorer but not a better player.

    This isn’t even meant as a melo criticism, as being compared to Durant is not an insult, but:
    - Durant scores more points on less shots than Melo, so he is a better scorer
    - Durant rebounds better than Melo (not sure why you are saying that this isn’t the case- just check the numbers.
    - Durant blocks a shot a game
    - Melo is the better passer
    - Durant is 23

  18. Gideon Zaga

    Actually yes I watch their games a lot and he doesnt even get the chance to be double teamed a lot, most of his offense is shots off screens and drives off screens. He doesn’t hold the ball long enough to be doubled, it’s not his fault. Like I said previously he’s not in the position to do that. But since you’re the stat god or one of them, I suggest you look into creating a double team stat. After all stats are merely records of events and their frequencies. Shouldn’t be too hard.

    Bruno Almeida: have you ever seen ONE Oklahoma City game?

    Durant gets doubled A LOT against good teams, and he’s averaging 8 rebounds a game, against Melo’s 6.2… and they’re also tied in assists.

  19. Gideon Zaga

    He is 23, so what? Is that supposed to be a stat that says being young means you’re better.

    2FOR18: This isn’t even meant as a melo criticism, as being compared to Durant is not an insult, but:
    - Durant scores more points on less shots than Melo, so he is a better scorer
    - Durant rebounds better than Melo (not sure why you are saying that this isn’t the case- just check the numbers.
    - Durant blocks a shot a game
    - Melo is the better passer
    - Durant is 23

  20. Bruno Almeida

    Gideon Zaga:
    Actually yes I watch their games a lot and he doesnt even get the chance to be double teamed a lot, most of his offense is shots off screens and drives off screens. He doesn’t hold the ball long enough to be doubled, it’s not his fault. Like I said previously he’s not in the position to do that. But since you’re the stat god or one of them, I suggest you look into creating a double team stat. After all stats are merely records of events and their frequencies. Shouldn’t be too hard.

    I’m not the stat god, but it’s painfully obvious that Durant is, right now, the better scorer AND better rebounder.

    and in terms of assists they’re right at the same level… I agree that Carmelo is a better passer, but not by much.

    this is not statistic analysis, it’s fact analysis.

    and the fact that he’s already better at 23 is just to point that he still has room for improvement, while Melo is PROBABLY close to a finished product.

  21. 2FOR18

    Gideon Zaga:
    He is 23, so what? Is that supposed to be a stat that says being young means you’re better.

    His age is relevant because by just about every metric, Durant is the better player, even though he’s had less prime years than melo.

  22. Bruno Almeida

    2FOR18: Exactly!!!

    and I don’t get how the “he doesn’t hold the ball long enough to be doubled” isn’t actually even more indication that Durant is the superior player.

  23. ruruland

    2FOR18: His age is relevant because by just about every metric, Durant is the better player, even though he’s had less prime years than melo.

    Is there any other star on any team in the league where hometown fans vehemently argue against him?

    I don’t think it’s even close. Melo has a higher career rebound rate, a lower turnover rate, and a higher assist rate. Durant is closing in on 4 turnovers per game this year.

    How many more assist opportunities would Melo have with the most efficient shooting team in the league?

  24. John Kenney Post author

    To those saying Landry deserved an A- watch Josh Smith’s dunk / And+1 highlight a few more times. One play which points out a fact: to get an A you need excellent play on both sides of floor.

  25. Gideon Zaga

    And who said holding the ball long enough to draw a defender, so you can kick out against the rotating defense and create an easy shot for a team mate is a bad thing. Isn’t that the core of half court basketball: draw the defense and find the open man. And on that note I can argue that Melo style of play is much valuable since he creates doubles and offense for his team mates while Durant is basically a bigger Ray Allen. All he does is shoot shots off screens. I’m pretty sure Melo can do this as well. Oh and this is for the great Bruno Almeida, Durant’s off screen shots are filled with 18-20 footers. Guess he should drive more huh?

    2FOR18: Exactly!!!

  26. cgreene

    I may argue that Melo is a better defender than Durant. I really don’t know where Melo got his rep as a bad defender. I haven’t seen it at all. Taking some plays off maybe but a good defender in general.

  27. Gideon Zaga

    Save your breath Ruru or in this case your fingers let me handle these guys, save your energy for the Bigger fishes, plus the Playoffs are about to start I’m sure you would enjoy your I told you so in a form of 500+ characters.

    ruruland: Is there any other star on any team in the league where hometown fans vehemently argue against him?

    I don’t think it’s even close. Melo has a higher career rebound rate, a lower turnover rate, and a higher assist rate. Durant is closing in on 4 turnovers per game this year.

    How many more assist opportunities would Melo have with the most efficient shooting team in the league?

  28. Gideon Zaga

    Exactly!! So how come they say Durant is the better player if Melo is better or I’ll give them on par on offense, better on defense and far better at passing and rebounding. Yeah the Numbers Don’t Lie.

    cgreene:
    I may argue that Melo is a better defender than Durant.I really don’t know where Melo got his rep as a bad defender.I haven’t seen it at all.Taking some plays off maybe but a good defender in general.

  29. ruruland

    BigBlueAL:
    Melo haters/Iso haters must be loving this OKC-LAL game lol

    That’s playoff basketball. All about shot-makers and shot-creators.

  30. ruruland

    And, OKC is about as 1-1, i pick and roll non-continuity offense as there is. They’re fantastic in transition and semi-transition, but those looks go way down in the playoffs.

  31. ruruland

    Amar’e Stoudemire actually just said this: “It was a phenomenal game. From what coach Woody’s (Mike Woodson) saying, the way to win a championship is defense and rebounding.”

  32. david

    The lineups things is really interesting. For instance, the healthiest group of players this season would be Shump, Fields, Novak, Melo and Chandler, which is a pretty solid lineup, and we’ve only seen it for 6 minutes total (a very effective six minutes, but still.)

    I think Woodson’s big challenge is finding a unit to spell Melo and Chandler, who are pretty symbiotic at this point. If we can get 8 minutes or so of not-too-bad basketball from an Amare/Jeffries/Fields/Smith/Davis lineup (or Novak in for Fields), we’d be really solid.

    Also, I still think we will probably end up in the 8th seed without tanking (which I’d much much rather see). If Philly can beat Milwaukee, their other two games are gimmes. And the Clips are a tough team to beat, even at home. I’d like to see us rest Chandler again, not to tank but to make sure he’s healthy in the playoffs. For the last two years, we’ve played Chicago well for some reason — they are great at shutting down dribble penetrators, which we barely ever do, and at shutting down bigs, from whom we get little scoring. I love the Amare v. Boozer matchup, the Rose iso v. Shump, and Chandler is better than Noah. Their depth is less useful in the playoffs (and for some reason they don’t play Gibson all the time — he’s fantastic.) Against Chicago, I give us a 25-30% chance of advancing, whereas against Miami, I don’t think it’s higher that 10-15% (an injury to James or Wade; Melo playing insanely well)…

  33. 2FOR18

    ruruland: Is there any other star on any team in the league where hometown fans vehemently argue against him?

    I don’t think it’s even close. Melo has a higher career rebound rate, a lower turnover rate, and a higher assist rate. Durant is closing in on 4 turnovers per game this year.

    How many more assist opportunities would Melo have with the most efficient shooting team in the league?

    You’re too sensitive re: melo

    Saying Durant is better than melo is not a criticism against melo, it’s a compliment to Durant.
    You’re cherry picking states re: the rebounding. You know that looking at career numbers, when melo has had a longer prime than Durant, is silly. Durant, at 23, is rebounding better than melo ever has – it’s just a fact, not an indictment of melo. melo is a fine rebounder, but he can’t do some of the things Durant can at his height and length.

  34. Bruno Almeida

    2FOR18: You’re too sensitive re: melo

    Saying Durant is better than melo is not a criticism against melo, it’s a compliment to Durant.
    You’re cherry picking states re: the rebounding. You know that looking at career numbers, when melo has had a longer prime than Durant, is silly.Durant, at 23, is rebounding better than melo ever has – it’s just a fact, not an indictment of melo.melo is a fine rebounder, but he can’t do some of the things Durant can at his height and length.

    perfect.

    it’s not the fan base that keeps criticizing Melo non-stop, it’s ruruland who takes EVERY SINGLE WORD said about Melo that isnt “he’s incredibly awesome” like a personal insult.

    Durant is better than he is, so what?

    when we had Ewing, I thought Olajuwon was better than him, that makes me less of a Knicks fan?

    or should I have believed John Starks was so much better than the media-darling Jordan?

  35. Bruno Almeida

    ruruland:
    Amar’e Stoudemire actually just said this: “It was a phenomenal game. From what coach Woody’s (Mike Woodson) saying, the way to win a championship is defense and rebounding.”

    lol, I guess that includes letting Jeff Teague into the paint about 15 times in a game, nice.

  36. ruruland

    2FOR18: You’re too sensitive re: melo

    Saying Durant is better than melo is not a criticism against melo, it’s a compliment to Durant.
    You’re cherry picking states re: the rebounding. You know that looking at career numbers, when melo has had a longer prime than Durant, is silly.Durant, at 23, is rebounding better than melo ever has – it’s just a fact, not an indictment of melo.melo is a fine rebounder, but he can’t do some of the things Durant can at his height and length.

    I don’t necessarily think Melo is better than Durant. I’d take Durant over a full season because he’s a thoroughbred that rarely loses his legs — that to me is a huge advantage in a long season. I’d take Melo in a one game situation and in the playoffs because he’s more versatile offensively and creates more defensive attention.

    I’m responding to the argument you made. And it’s now cherry-picking when I compare career numbers?? wut

    And no, once again man, Durant has never had a 11.5 rebound percentage in a year. Melo has a better career rebound rate and a higher career high rebound rate.

  37. Gideon Zaga

    Well you’re also doing the same my friend. You’re cherrypicking this season but yeah Durant at 23 is rebounding better than Melo means just that! It doesn’t mean it will continue or it could be an anomaly. He’s done it for once season and you crown him King. I respect your opinion and you should ours as well.

    2FOR18: You’re too sensitive re: melo

    Saying Durant is better than melo is not a criticism against melo, it’s a compliment to Durant.
    You’re cherry picking states re: the rebounding. You know that looking at career numbers, when melo has had a longer prime than Durant, is silly.Durant, at 23, is rebounding better than melo ever has – it’s just a fact, not an indictment of melo.melo is a fine rebounder, but he can’t do some of the things Durant can at his height and length.

  38. ruruland

    Bruno Almeida: perfect.

    it’s not the fan base that keeps criticizing Melo non-stop, it’s ruruland who takes EVERY SINGLE WORD said about Melo that isnt “he’s incredibly awesome” like a personal insult.

    Durant is better than he is, so what?

    when we had Ewing, I thought Olajuwon was better than him, that makes me less of a Knicks fan?

    or should I have believed John Starks was so much better than the media-darling Jordan?

    Considering how often he gets attacked by his own “fans” maybe someone should be arguing on his behalf. Sometimes i don’t think there’s much of a point though. This is all about people being right about the trade — and that will never change.

    The reasons people are arguing that Durant is better than Melo are wrong.

  39. 2FOR18

    Gideon Zaga:
    Exactly!! So how come they say Durant is the better player if Melo is better or I’ll give them on par on offense, better on defense and far better at passing and rebounding. Yeah the Numbers Don’t Lie.

    Re: scoring, I think you may be confusing “great at making difficult shots” with “better”.

  40. Gideon Zaga

    No son you’re the one clearly confused. Everyone makes open shots, few make contested shots.

    2FOR18: Re: scoring, I think you may be confusing “great at making difficult shots” with “better”.

  41. 2FOR18

    ruruland:
    Amar’e Stoudemire actually just said this: “It was a phenomenal game. From what coach Woody’s (Mike Woodson) saying, the way to win a championship is defense and rebounding.”

    Is it possible that Amare believes that he’s a good rebounder and defender?

  42. ruruland

    2FOR18: Is it possible that Amare believes that he’s a good rebounder and defender?

    It’s just such an odd thing for a guy to say. Melo gets absolutely lampooned for saying that.

  43. 2FOR18

    ruruland:

    The reasons people are arguing that Durant is better than Melo are wrong.

    Well that settles that! You are right and everyone else who disagrees is wrong, oh wise one!

  44. Bruno Almeida

    ruruland: Considering how often he gets attacked by his own “fans” maybe someone should be arguing on his behalf. Sometimes i don’t think there’s much of a point though. This is all about people being right about the trade — and that will never change.

    The reasons people are arguing that Durant is better than Melo are wrong.

    I’m arguing that Durant is better because it’s clear to me, in my point of view.

    you seriously haven’t seen anything, Ewing was subject to MUCH MORE criticism than Melo, is just the way New York fans are… it’s been too long since we have won anything and this is a proud fan base… I speak for myself, but I think I represent a lot of fans when I say that just being decent again is a nice thing, after a decade of mediocrity, but we can’t settle on “decent team that at most will go to the 2nd round and lose”, or “REALLY SUPER HAPPY to even reach the ECF”.

    and I’m through with the trade, I care only about how this team plays.

  45. Nick C.

    ruruland:
    Amar’e Stoudemire actually just said this: “It was a phenomenal game. From what coach Woody’s (Mike Woodson) saying, the way to win a championship is defense and rebounding.”

    I’m not sure what to make of that. Is that supposed to be a backhanded criticism of D’Antoni or is Amare that oblivious?

  46. ruruland

    Bruno Almeida: I’m arguing that Durant is better because it’s clear to me, in my point of view.

    you seriously haven’t seen anything, Ewing was subject to MUCH MORE criticism than Melo, is just the way New York fans are… it’s been too long since we have won anything and this is a proud fan base… I speak for myself, but I think I represent a lot of fans when I say that just being decent again is a nice thing, after a decade of mediocrity, but we can’t settle on “decent team that at most will go to the 2nd round and lose”, or “REALLY SUPER HAPPY to even reach the ECF”.

    and I’m through with the trade, I care only about how this team plays.

    I don’t see how the fan base is proud. They’re certainly not proud of its best players.

  47. 2FOR18

    ruruland: It’s just such an odd thing for a guy to say. Melo gets absolutely lampooned for saying that.

    lol, somehow you turn me mocking Amare into a defense of melo thing. You are too much sometimes.

  48. Count de Pennies

    I did not watch the OKC-LA game but just saw the box score.

    Did Jordan Hill – yes, Jordan Hill – really score 14 points and pull down 15 boards?

    Or was that a typo?

  49. ruruland

    Nick C.: I’m not sure what to make of that. Is that supposed to be a backhanded criticism of D’Antoni or is Amare that oblivious?

    I don’t know. Going to watch on MSG for context and paralanguage.

  50. Gideon Zaga

    Hahaha you actually made me laugh. But I think Ruru seems to agree with you that Durant is somehow better than Melo.

    2FOR18: Well that settles that!You are right and everyone else who disagrees is wrong, oh wise one!

  51. Bruno Almeida

    and ruruland, I’m sorry but one thing won’t change:

    a lot of people here have been through a lot cheering for this particular team… I have been around only since the Ewing / Oakley era, but many here are fans from much older times, since the Bernard era and everything.

    and just because some of us criticize Melo does that means you can come here, being a Denver fan or Carmelo fan or whatever, and argue that these people aren’t fans?

    on what basis exactly?

  52. ruruland

    Gideon Zaga:
    Hahaha you actually made me laugh. But I think Ruru seems to agree with you that Durant is somehow better than Melo.

    I agree with a lot of your points, Zaga

  53. Bruno Almeida

    ruruland: I don’t see how the fan base is proud. They’re certainly not proud of its best players.

    lol, ask any true Knicks fan how they feel about Bernard, Oakley, Ewing or Clyde then, and you’ll see…

    you really don’t know a thing.

  54. ruruland

    Bruno Almeida:
    and ruruland, I’m sorry but one thing won’t change:

    a lot of people here have been through a lot cheering for this particular team… I have been around only since the Ewing / Oakley era, but many here are fans from much older times, since the Bernard era and everything.

    and just because some of us criticize Melo does that means you can come here, being a Denver fan or Carmelo fan or whatever, and argue that these people aren’t fans?

    on what basis exactly?

    I’d like to understand how this New York mindset can be defined as “fanhood.”

  55. Bruno Almeida

    ruruland: I’d like to understand how this New York mindset can be defined as “fanhood.”

    and myself, I’d love to understand how being a Denver fan and a Knicks fan or whatever you sir are, can be defined as “fanhood”

  56. ruruland

    Bruno Almeida: and myself, I’d love to understand how being a Denver fan and a Knicks fan or whatever you sir are, can be defined as “fanhood”

    Another time my friend. Don’t want to open that can right now.

  57. Bruno Almeida

    every case is different… many Knicks fans, including myself, still love John Starks to death, and he had a lot of shortcomings, never won a title and probably didn’t have a single one elite skill.

    but this is not something you instantly get just by wearing a New York jersey, the fans have to recognize something in the player that makes them have this type of reaction… it happened with Mason, with Allan Houston, Oakley, Ewing, Starks, Sprewell, Larry Johnson, a lot of guys just from the top of my head, some more, some less.

    the fact that the fans haven’t felt this type of feeling towards Melo is, in my opinion, more indicative of Carmelo Anthony than the fans.

  58. Gideon Zaga

    I agree with you here and it’s not just the Knicks. Same with the Yanks and my Jets. I hate them all and love them. It’s a love hate relationship. But in this case I love Melo and until he let’s me down I will continue to love him, I love Amare too (well sometimes) and I hated Dantoni but some of you loved him. I still don’t like Lin. Each on to his own. But in NY we are all coaches and have been since we were young. But I choose not to dwell on the past, as much I hate Dolan I still wouldn’t trade him for say Sterling. Sheesh! Little bit.

    Bruno Almeida: lol, ask any true Knicks fan how they feel about Bernard, Oakley, Ewing or Clyde then, and you’ll see…

    you really don’t know a thing.

  59. Bruno Almeida

    @67

    and also, very indicative of the collective disbelief that reigned though the Isiah years and the start of the rebuilding process with D’Antoni.

  60. Bruno Almeida

    Gideon Zaga:
    I agree with you here and it’s not just the Knicks. Same with the Yanks and my Jets. I hate them all and love them. It’s a love hate relationship. But in this case I love Melo and until he let’s me down I will continue to love him, I love Amare too (well sometimes) and I hated Dantoni but some of you loved him. I still don’t like Lin. Each on to his own. But in NY we are all coaches and have been since we were young. But I choose not to dwell on the past, as much I hate Dolan I still wouldn’t trade him for say Sterling. Sheesh! Little bit.

    yeah, I’m the same, but with the Giants and Mets here… but I hate the argument that “true New York fans should love Carmelo”.

  61. ruruland

    Bruno Almeida:
    every case is different… many Knicks fans, including myself, still love John Starks to death, and he had a lot of shortcomings, never won a title and probably didn’t have a single one elite skill.

    but this is not something you instantly get just by wearing a New York jersey, the fans have to recognize something in the player that makes them have this type of reaction… it happened with Mason, with Allan Houston, Oakley, Ewing, Starks, Sprewell, Larry Johnson, a lot of guys just from the top of my head, some more, some less.

    the fact that the fans haven’t felt this type of feeling towards Melo is, in my opinion, more indicative of Carmelo Anthony than the fans.

    Right, and I think that’s cool, but I don’t get the feeling that many Knicks fans are waiting for Melo to grow on them or hoping they can embrace him at some point.

    Maybe I’m wrong. I’ve posted enough. I’m out.

  62. ruruland

    Bruno Almeida: yeah, I’m the same, but with the Giants and Mets here… but I hate the argument that “true New York fans should love Carmelo”.

    That’s not my argument at all.

  63. formido

    That’s a huge stretch. Arguing that it’s better to play isolation is preferable? Wow.

    One of the main reasons Jordan was so much better than Kobe ever has been is the fact that Jordan scored so many points so efficiently by moving off the ball. I’ve always wondered why Kobe never picked that up, since he imitates Jordan so closely, but it really makes their games night and day. Kobe, and by extension any player who spends a lot of time playing one on one offense, expends a huge amount of energy doing this, definitely more than off the ball movement, and it makes his game predictable. Both of these things causes individual and team scoring efficiency to suffer. It also sucks up energy that could be used for rebounding and defense.

    Gideon Zaga: And who said holding the ball long enough to draw a defender, so you can kick out against the rotating defense and create an easy shot for a team mate is a bad thing. Isn’t that the core of half court basketball: draw the defense and find the open man. And on that note I can argue that Melo style of play is much valuable since he creates doubles and offense for his team mates while Durant is basically a bigger Ray Allen. All he does is shoot shots off screens. I’m pretty sure Melo can do this as well. Oh and this is for the great Bruno Almeida, Durant’s off screen shots are filled with 18-20 footers. Guess he should drive more huh?

  64. 2FOR18

    ruruland: I’d like to understand how this New York mindset can be defined as “fanhood.”

    You know, you are actually the one who starts most of these melo debates. Look at the game thread. No one was saying anything even remotely negative about him, but apropos of nothing, you chime in with a sarcastic comment about melo haters being happy cause melo missed a lot of shots in the game, and the sniping was on.

  65. Bruno Almeida

    ruruland: Right, and I think that’s cool, but I don’t get the feeling that many Knicks fans are waiting for Melo to grow on them or hoping they can embrace him at some point.

    Maybe I’m wrong. I’ve posted enough. I’m out.

    there really is no explaining to what makes a guy loved by the fans, I’m sorry, and this is not a New York thing… sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn’t.

    to use an example from my country… Ronaldo and Rivaldo were both incredible soccer players, both won world championships, prizes for best player in the world, multiple domestic titles wherever they played, and were, in my opinion, on a very similar skill level…

    but fans are MUCH more attached to Ronaldo than Rivaldo, and yet they had similar skill levels and have won similar accolades.

    why is that?

    no idea, maybe media, maybe personality, maybe the places they played and the specific time they spent on each place… but can’t say for sure.

  66. Bruno Almeida

    ruruland: That’s not my argument at all.

    you just said that the fan base “isn’t proud of it’s own best players”, which, to me, implies that we should be proud of Carmelo Anthony.

  67. d-mar

    Not to speak for him, but I think ruruland feels the need to constantly defend Melo because to so many on this board, he can do no right.

    when the Knicks traded for him, the consensus from those who hated the deal was:

    1) Volume shooter (whatever the hell that means)
    2) Only cares about “getting his”, a true ball stopper
    3) Terrible defender
    4) Below average rebounder

    All I’ve seen since he got here is a willing passer out of double teams, a tough defender who gets more than his share of steals and an excellent rebounder at the 3. He’s far from perfect, and he’s not Durant or LeBron, but it wasn’t that long ago that certain posters had him as like the 35th best player in the NBA.

  68. Juany8

    Durant-Melo is an interesting argument since they are such different types of scorers. Durant is at his best when he’s moving off the ball and shooting jumpers, while Melo is at his best posting up and working his opponent one on one. That’s the real reason Westbrook has a higher usage than Durant, quite often it’s simply hard to get Durant in position for a good shot. Melo simply has to get the ball in his spots, which I think makes up for any efficiency gains Durant has.

    As far as rebounding and defense, Melo is probably a little better at one on one defense and offensive rebounds while Durant is longer and can get more blocks and steals than Melo. I’d probably end up with a similar decision to Ruru, I’d take Durant overall for the regular season because he’s more effective in a transition offense and defense, but late in the playoffs it’s no question I’d take Melo to run a half court offense.

  69. 2FOR18

    d-mar:
    Not to speak for him, but I think ruruland feels the need to constantly defend Melo because to so many on this board, he can do no right.

    when the Knicks traded for him, the consensus from those who hated the deal was:

    1) Volume shooter (whatever the hell that means)
    2) Only cares about “getting his”, a true ball stopper
    3) Terrible defender
    4) Below average rebounder

    All I’ve seen since he got here is a willing passer out of double teams, a tough defender who gets more than his share of steals and an excellent rebounder at the 3. He’s far from perfect, and he’s not Durant or LeBron, but it wasn’t that long ago that certain posters had him as like the 35th best player in the NBA.

    I think you’re making the type of straw man argument that ruru often makes, which is what irritates the hell out of me.

    A stated opinion about melo shooting too many long 2s often results in a long ruru screed about how the opinion maker is stating that melo is a bum who should be run out of town.
    On top of that he is constantly questioning the fandom of knicks fans who don’t love melo unconditionally; this is tough to take when a lifelong Nuggets fan who just started following the knicks is saying this to knicks fans who have suffered for decades rooting for this team.

    For whatever reason, anything short of singing melo’s praises causes ruru to take it personally; ruru is the one who most often starts these long debates by overreacting to innocuous comments.

  70. Juany8

    Also, although Ruruland is a bit defensive when it comes to Melo, there’s still a significant portion of this board that seems to be looking for excuses to rip on Melo. On this thread specifically, Gideon tried to compare Melo favorably to Durant and several people jumped up to try to make Melo look as bad as possible next to Durant. Melo also still gets blamed for Amare’s fit on the team, yet it’s quite clear that it’s really Tyson Chandler taking space in the paint that limits how effective Amar’e is. If he’s going to be asked to take more jumpers to help with the team’s spacing, his overall efficiency is going to fall regardless of how well he shoots them.

  71. 2FOR18

    Juany8:
    On this thread specifically, Gideon tried to compare Melo favorably to Durant and several people jumped up to try to make Melo look as bad as possible next to Durant.

    This is the straw man thing I was referring to. Specifically, what was said that made melo look as bad as possible next to Durant?

  72. max fisher-cohen

    Ruru, you seem to believe that people here have hatched some sort of plan to destroy Melo’s reputation on and off the floor. My belief is that the so-called “melo haters” here generally just accept that this roster is not championship quality, the major cause of that not being a lack of talent but a lack of cohesion, stemming from the redundancy of Melo and Amar’e and to a lesser extent, Amar’e and Chandler. They then look at the roster for ways to improve things, see a few things:

    1) Stoudemire has almost no trade value
    2) Shumpert and Lin’s contracts are too small to match with a better but older player
    3) The Knicks will likely have even less talent next year when Novak and Smith are gone
    4) Melo has HUGE trade value.

    In short, I want a championship, and I don’t care if we have to trade Carmelo Anthony or Jeremy Lin or Stoudemire if it means we get to that level. The only conceivable way then to change things — to build a more cohesive team — without completely exploding the roster and rebuilding, is to trade Melo. I don’t blame Melo for this. I also don’t think that at this point the incompatibility between Stoudemire and Melo is a done deal, but I think it’s very close.

    I am sincerely curious about two things, ruru:

    1) If you do feel that people have some secret vendetta against Melo, where do you think it stems from? Why do you think, as you claim, that people are so forgiving of Stoudemire but not of Anthony?

    2) If the Knicks traded Anthony and proceeded to win a championship, would you be upset or happy? In other words, which is more important to you, the Knicks or number 7? It’s only fair you answer honestly since you often imply that others on this board don’t know how to properly root for their team.

  73. Nick C.

    ruruland: I don’t know. Going to watch on MSG for context and paralanguage.

    I wasn’t trying to be snarky. Last year Amare said something about D’Antoni not teaching him defense. It would be mind-boggling if Amare just figured out or heard defense and rebounding wins championships.

  74. art vandelay

    Gideon Zaga:
    I think JR’s play defensively shows that coaches really matter in this game. That’s why I still hold hope for Amare, no wander Melo’s defense under Dantoni and under Woodson is like night and day. Coaches set the culture of the team and push the talent of their players. I agree that Karl made Melo the dynamic weapon he is today but he never required defense from him. Same way he cast JR as an outcast and didn’t even bother to require efficiency or defense from him. Look at fields, he’s also been improving under Woodson, I remember Woodson asking him to be confident enough to take the shots. Coaches matter but coaching is also a talent not only off the floor but also in game and even in the off season. Another example is Ryan Anderson, never known as a good rebounder but displays effort on the boards after SVG criticizes him. Same with Bass, different role in Orlando, different role in Boston. But there are also players who don’t have the talent to be dynamic as their coaches would require, I think Galo comes to mind with this, I think Karl has gotten what he can out of him, he’s not a superstar but an efficient shooter and defender but not talented to be the guy. I think JR’s best days are ahead of him he has the talent to be dynamic on both ends. In the words of Herm Edwards: “you’re either coaching it or letting it happen”. As I wrote this Kobe just clutched it.

    I would argue that Fields was better under MDA this season than he has been under Woodson….with the exception of today’s game he has largely been horrendous really since Woodson took over, though that also includes a large stretch playing without a proven and healthy PG (like Lin), who tends to really help improve his game, find him on cuts, etc.

  75. jon abbey

    I think people need to try to forget about the Amare we’ve seen most of the year, and focus on the one we’re seeing now. in the last two postseasons, he led Phoenix to the Conference Finals and last year so dominated Garnett head to head in game 1 that he said afterwards that no one could guard him, and while that certainly tempted the fates (injured immediately), he also looked correct.

    we need him to be our third best player unless JR or Shumpie really go off, and today looked very promising in that direction. it’s incredible the level they’re playing at (still 5th in the NBA in Hollinger’s rankings, behind the big four but ahead of Boston) with absolutely no continuity in lineups or rotations, this is version six or something in a short season.

  76. d-mar

    jon abbey:
    I think people need to try to forget about the Amare we’ve seen most of the year, and focus on the one we’re seeing now. in the last two postseasons, he led Phoenix to the Conference Finals and last year so dominated Garnett head to head in game 1 that he said afterwards that no one could guard him, and while that certainly tempted the fates (injured immediately), he also looked correct.

    we need him to be our third best player unless JR or Shumpie really go off, and today looked very promising in that direction. it’s incredible the level they’re playing at (still 5th in the NBA in Hollinger’s rankings, behind the big four but ahead of Boston) with absolutely no continuity in lineups or rotations, this is version six or something in a short season.

    The Amare-Christine Bosh matchup will be huge assuming we play Miami. Hopefully, STAT is still feeling his oats by then.

  77. daJudge

    Sorry to go back in time, but I recorded the game and just finished it. Great post GidZa. I think a coach is worth is worth 2-3 points both ways. Maybe more. That is a large point differential. Night and day indeed. No salary cap. Also, how can anyone explain the way fields shot? I don’t care that it went in…the form was much better. Maybe he needs to come off the bench. It’s funny, this squad has huge potential. I wish it were politically possible to bring Stat off the bench.

    Gideon Zaga:
    I think JR’s play defensively shows that coaches really matter in this game. That’s why I still hold hope for Amare, no wander Melo’s defense under Dantoni and under Woodson is like night and day. Coaches set the culture of the team and push the talent of their players. I agree that Karl made Melo the dynamic weapon he is today but he never required defense from him. Same way he cast JR as an outcast and didn’t even bother to require efficiency or defense from him. Look at fields, he’s also been improving under Woodson, I remember Woodson asking him to be confident enough to take the shots. Coaches matter but coaching is also a talent not only off the floor but also in game and even in the off season. Another example is Ryan Anderson, never known as a good rebounder but displays effort on the boards after SVG criticizes him. Same with Bass, different role in Orlando, different role in Boston. But there are also players who don’t have the talent to be dynamic as their coaches would require, I think Galo comes to mind with this, I think Karl has gotten what he can out of him, he’s not a superstar but an efficient shooter and defender but not talented to be the guy. I think JR’s best days are ahead of him he has the talent to be dynamic on both ends. In the words of Herm Edwards: “you’re either coaching it or letting it happen”. As I wrote this Kobe just clutched it…

  78. danvt

    Bruno Almeida: it happened with Mason, with Allan Houston, Oakley, Ewing, Starks, Sprewell, Larry Johnson, a lot of guys just from the top of my head, some more, some less.

    Melo is better than all of those guys but Ewing, right now. He could catch Ewing if his career as a Knick nets him a championship. He had a shitty first half this year but he’s come into it. He’ll need to improve to get to Ewing’s level but he’s on his way. Thank Jah for coach Woodson.

    I watched Clyde and Reed as a young kid, saw Haywood and McAdoo, Michael Ray, Cartwright, BERNARD KING, Rod Strickland, Patty, Mark Jackson, etc.

    I don’t thing anyone wouldn’t think about doing Melo straight up for Kevin Durant, but it’s so beside the point. Right now Melo is on a tear that few in Knick history have ever match and under circumstances and dire and impossible as ever has been. Get off the fantasy value kick.

  79. Tony Pena

    I too will pray so that Fields shot is back. With the Knicks guard situation, it would be H-U-G-E if Fields, or miraculously TD, suddenly becomes above average heading into the playoffs. Like, tipping a series HUGE.

    Also, Shump’s ankle is definitely slowing him down.

  80. Gideon Zaga

    Dude Ronaldo was a god, almost should have eclipsed Pele and in my opinion he did. I thought of Rivaldo as his side kick after all, more like Robin. That Golden Boot won by Ronaldo in that World Cup was amazing and deserved it. Greatest player or arguably next to Pele. His name is like Jordan’s in America, no wander the stiff Christiano Ronaldo rode it to stardom.

    Bruno Almeida: there really is no explaining to what makes a guy loved by the fans, I’m sorry, and this is not a New York thing… sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn’t.

    to use an example from my country… Ronaldo and Rivaldo were both incredible soccer players, both won world championships, prizes for best player in the world, multiple domestic titles wherever they played, and were, in my opinion, on a very similar skill level…

    but fans are MUCH more attached to Ronaldo than Rivaldo, and yet they had similar skill levels and have won similar accolades.

    why is that?

    no idea, maybe media, maybe personality, maybe the places they played and the specific time they spent on each place… but can’t say for sure.

  81. Bruno Almeida

    danvt: Melo is better than all of those guys but Ewing, right now.He could catch Ewing if his career as a Knick nets him a championship.He had a shitty first half this year but he’s come into it.He’ll need to improve to get to Ewing’s level but he’s on his way.Thank Jah for coach Woodson.

    I watched Clyde and Reed as a young kid, saw Haywood and McAdoo, Michael Ray, Cartwright, BERNARD KING, Rod Strickland, Patty, Mark Jackson, etc.

    I don’t thing anyone wouldn’t think about doing Melo straight up for Kevin Durant, but it’s so beside the point.Right now Melo is on a tear that few in Knick history have ever match and under circumstances and dire and impossible as ever has been.Get off the fantasy value kick.

    I wasn’t arguing whether Melo was better or worse than those guys, I was just giving example of beloved Knicks players, players who are and were far more respected by the fan base than Carmelo, even though they were heavily criticized at times.

  82. Bruno Almeida

    Gideon Zaga:
    Dude Ronaldo was a god, almost should have eclipsed Pele and in my opinion he did. I thought of Rivaldo as his side kick after all, more like Robin. That Golden Boot won by Ronaldo in that World Cup was amazing and deserved it. Greatest player or arguably next to Pele. His name is like Jordan’s in America, no wander the stiff Christiano Ronaldo rode it to stardom.

    well, myself and a lot of people I know actually think Rivaldo was the main guy behind the 2002 world cup title, for example… but Ronaldo had far more media, was a more talkative guy, while Rivaldo was incredibly shy and never appeared on comercials and stuff.

    and in terms of titles and accolades, they are very close to one another.

  83. BigBlueAL

    Hahn just tweeted:

    Perhaps second most important result of the day, after the scoring collaboration between Melo (39 points, 10 rebounds) and Amar’e (22 points, 12 rebounds), is the revelation by Landry Fields (7-for-8, 18 points) that he’s been working with Allan Houston on his shooting and game preparation. H20 helped Iman Shumpert’s J earlier this season. #shotdoctor

  84. daJudge

    DanVermont–me too. Tony P– That’s what I think re: Fields—his stroke looked so damn good. Shump is the one that needs to sit and rest . He is way slower on D and we need JJ back too. This team at full force can do some damage both ends. I think we have some soup cooking here. Also, can you imagine a coach that would try to fundamentally change Melo’s game. How silly and arrogant. We should have been at least ten games over 500 at this point. What a shame.

  85. danvt

    max fisher-cohen: In short, I want a championship, and I don’t care if we have to trade Carmelo Anthony or Jeremy Lin or Stoudemire if it means we get to that level. The only conceivable way then to change things — to build a more cohesive team — without completely exploding the roster and rebuilding, is to trade Melo. I don’t blame Melo for this. I also don’t think that at this point the incompatibility between Stoudemire and Melo is a done deal, but I think it’s very close.

    My problem with this is that it misses the point. The Knicks in April have had road wins that they haven’t had in over a decade and even wouldn’t so reliably get in the hey day of Ewing and Oak. We have a bulldog out of Syracuse playing the best basketball of his career. The narrative has changed. You’re still in March.

  86. BigBlueAL

    How is Ronaldo greater than Pele when he was just an outright striker?? Maybe the best ever mind you (I love Henry but I havent followed soccer for that long to have a real opinion on this lol) but for me tough for him to be greater than someone like Pele, Maradona, Zidane or even Messi. But I guess in soccer arent mid-field type players always considered the best players??

    Anyway back to my previous tweet, would love to see Novak and Houston face eachother in a 3pt shooting contest during practice lol

  87. Frank O.

    All this bickering is silly. Melo played a great game. Amare was efficient and effective, and Baron was mostly competent. Fields looked like a fields we once knew.
    If I’m the heat or the bulls, I’m concerned as to whether they can get enough scoring to win against our guys.
    I am all in on Melo.
    I love Amare and Chandler is my favorite guy on the team. Shump has guts and I have much hope for Landry. Smith is that buddy of yours that tends to fuck up a lot, but from time to time he does something to remind you why you were friends to begin with.
    Novak is an assassin, and Baron…well, he’s a living body, which is more than I can say for Bibby.
    Stop arguing you mooks. This team is winning in many different ways, and they haven’t lost much lately, or hadn’t you noticed?
    And get off ruru’s back. He likes Melo. So fucking what?
    Owen adored Lee, abbey’s got a hard on for Shump, and cock jowels loves Fields. So…fucking…what?
    We’re in the show…our guys got balls, and a new season is about to begin. Any fuckin’ thing can happen.

  88. jon abbey

    BigBlueAL:
    Hahn just tweeted:

    Perhaps second most important result of the day, after the scoring collaboration between Melo (39 points, 10 rebounds) and Amar’e (22 points, 12 rebounds), is the revelation by Landry Fields (7-for-8, 18 points) that he’s been working with Allan Houston on his shooting and game preparation. H20 helped Iman Shumpert’s J earlier this season. #shotdoctor

    he still barely jumped on the first one, the next two the form was a little better. it would be awesome if he remembers how to shoot, but Bibby had four threes in a game recently too, so we’ll see if he can keep doing it.

    also can Houston spare a few minutes at some point for Jorts? I didn’t understand how he went from a guy in college who never left the basket to being able to hit NBA threes, but somehow he was a consistent weapon from distance before he got hurt as well as our second best post defender. since he came back, his shot is totally gone.

  89. Nick C.

    BBA that would be great if Landry has refound his shot thanks go Houston. I wasn’t riveted to the game until the fourth so all I can add is that the MSG announcers, Dedes and Clyde, mentioned his shot looked less flat or something to that effect.

  90. daJudge

    +1, I think.

    Frank O.:
    All this bickering is silly. Melo played a great game. Amare was efficient and effective, and Baron was mostly competent. Fields looked like a fields we once knew.
    If I’m the heat or the bulls, I’m concerned as to whether they can get enough scoring to win against our guys.
    I am all in on Melo.
    I love Amare and Chandler is my favorite guy on the team. Shump has guts and I have much hope for Landry. Smith is that buddy of yours that tends to fuck up a lot, but from time to time he does something to remind you why you were friends to begin with.
    Novak is an assassin, and Baron…well, he’s a living body, which is more than I can say for Bibby.
    Stop arguing you mooks. This team is winning in many different ways, and they haven’t lost much lately, or hadn’t you noticed?
    And get off ruru’s back. He likes Melo. So fucking what?
    Owen adored Lee, abbey’s got a hard on for Shump, and cock jowels loves Fields. So…fucking…what?
    We’re in the show…our guys got balls, and a new season is about to begin. Any fuckin’ thing can happen.

  91. Tony Pena

    daJudge:
    DanVermont–me too. Tony P– That’s what I think re: Fields—his stroke looked so damn good.Shump is the one that needs to sit and rest .He is way slower on D and we need JJ back too.This team at full force can do some damage both ends. I think we have some soup cooking here.Also, can you imagine a coach that would try to fundamentally change Melo’s game.How silly and arrogant.We should have been at least ten games over 500 at this point. What a shame.

    I give Shump props for sticking it out and picking it up when the game is on the line, that’s veteran savvy. I won’t get too excited cause of the hole they’re in, but I’ve loved the resiliency this year. MDA…

  92. JC Knickfan

    Jort will not be getting any playoff minutes. He got whole offseason to work his game.
    Baring more injuries I playoff rotations looks like
    BD, Shump, Melo, Stat, TC
    Bench, Bibby, Smith, Fields, Novak, JJ.
    Bibby and Field probably shortest leash.

  93. Owen

    Yeah Max, I agree completely. Great post.

    For the record, Ruru, Melo used 36 possession tonight. 39 points. 54% ts%. That’s not the kind of game he has been having of late and frankly there really isn’t anything all that impressive about it.

    I also agree it’s pretty bizarre the way you question everyone’s fanhood for criticizing Melo and then applaud when they criticize Lin or anyone else basically for trying to steal Melo’s touches and glory.

    Also, this is New York. Criticizing other people comes naturally to us. And It takes something pretty special to earn our admiration. Something special like Jeremy Lin putting this team on his back and carrying us to 8 wins and making a playoff berth possible.

    That’s the kind of thing that impresses a New Yorker.

    The indelible image of Melo for me this season is him cracking a joke with an opposing player while inbounding the ball, then throwing it to the other team.

    Also comparing Melo to Durant is ridiculous. Flat out ridiculous. We can have that discussion when people are arguing that Melo and not Lebron should be the MVP.

    And yes, listening to rap music while writing posts is a bad idea….

  94. d-mar

    @100 Frank O. I hear what you’re saying, but I actually don’t mind hearing different points of views on various players on this site. What I do mind is the occasional “ha ha I’m right you’re wrong” posts. I think the level of discussion on this blog is generally high caliber, although it does sometimes devolve into one on one battles which go on WAY too long.

    And I do find this team really easy to root for, the guys genuinely seem to be pulling for each other, and the starters really seem to enjoy it when the bench guys go off. I think a lot of that stems from Chandler, who not only should win Defensive Player of the Year but Team Leader of the Year as well.

  95. jon abbey

    Owen:

    The indelible image of Melo for me this season is him cracking a joke with an opposing player while inbounding the ball, then throwing it to the other team.

    yeah, much more memorable than him busting a couple of ridiculous threes to beat the team with the best record in the league in front of a screaming MSG crowd.

  96. jon abbey

    Owen also said:

    “For the record, Ruru, Melo used 36 possession tonight. 39 points. 54% ts%. That’s not the kind of game he has been having of late and frankly there really isn’t anything all that impressive about it. ”

    I know it’s the accepted term, but players don’t “use possessions”, teams do (admittedly sometimes Melo uses a huge chunk of one himself). I guess the argument there is that NY somehow scored 113 despite Melo being a net neutral on the offensive end? do you really believe that’s what happened today?

  97. Owen

    Jon – For me, it actually was.

    I don’t know, I don’t judge a guy by his best performance, or his hottest stretch of play. I judge him on his overall body of work.

    And right now, with the Knicks barely making the playoffs, it just isn’t that impressive.

    Ruru acts like Melo is Moses but this doesn’t look like the Promised Land to me….

  98. danvt

    Owen: The indelible image of Melo for me this season is him cracking a joke with an opposing player while inbounding the ball, then throwing it to the other team.

    Mine is the three pointers against Chicago at MSG. So far, that is.

  99. danvt

    jon abbey: yeah, much more memorable than him busting a couple of ridiculous threes to beat the team with the best record in the league in front of a screaming MSG crowd.

    I wrote my post before I got a chance to look at yours. Great minds think alike, I guess.

  100. BigBlueAL

    Owen:
    Jon – For me, it actually was.

    I don’t know,I don’t judge a guy by his best performance, or his hottest stretch of play. I judge him on his overall body of work.

    And right now, with the Knicks barely making the playoffs, it just isn’t that impressive.

    Ruru acts like Melo is Moses but this doesn’t look like the Promised Land to me….

    In fairness right now I think we can all agree the Knicks are probably the 3rd best team in the East. I certainly would expect this team even w/o Lin to be able to beat any East team in a best-of-7 except obviously the Heat and Bulls.

    I understand what you are saying about Melo and what he hasnt accomplished yet as a Knick but you cant say these last 3 weeks havent been fun to watch and its mainly been because of Melo. Sure it doesnt mean he should get an inordinate amount of praise for it but shit it sure is alot more memorable than some stupid play he did earlier in the season.

  101. jon abbey

    Owen:
    Jon – For me, it actually was.

    I don’t know,I don’t judge a guy by his best performance, or his hottest stretch of play. I judge him on his overall body of work.

    And right now, with Knicks barely making the playoffs, it just isn’t that impressive.

    Ruru acts like Melo is Moses but this doesn’t look like the Promised Land to me….

    again, 9-2 under Woodson against the Eastern playoff contenders (including Milwaukee) not named Miami/Chicago. 9-2! we’ve been sitting at 5th best team in the league in Hollinger’s rankings for a couple of weeks, more relevantly third in the East.

    and again, since Lin went out, this is without any of the top 50 PGs in the league (counting Shumpie as a SG), maybe with a league average PG, they can make a run at one or more of the top four next year. or maybe Baron can find a few games from his youth somewhere in there, 31 minutes and 10 assists today is promising.

    I’ve said a lot that I was basically agnostic on the Melo trade from the start, but if he keeps playing like this through the playoffs, then it’s hard to argue against it anymore.

  102. Owen

    If you get fouled taking a shot and take two free throws, you have used a possession. If you miss those two free throws, you have wasted it. Two free throws are like a shot….

    What I meant there was that compared to the games he has been having lately, where he has been going off in more efficient fashion, it wasn’t as impressive.

    Didn’t phrase it quite right.

    But overall, scoring 39 points on 36 shots, it’s not that exciting to me.

  103. Gideon Zaga

    Henry??? Who dared mention Theiry Henry in that group of greats. Do not be mistaken, I’m an Arsenal fan and have been for all my life. Theiry Henry?? Really? Come on. Trust me, I love him and he was great but he just doesn’t have enough hardware to support it, except maybe his 4 top goal scorer titles in the premiership but you know in Football if you can’t bring your Country a World Cup it’s like not being in the Hall of Hall of Fames.

    BigBlueAL:
    How is Ronaldo greater than Pele when he was just an outright striker??Maybe the best ever mind you (I love Henry but I havent followed soccer for that long to have a real opinion on this lol) but for me tough for him to be greater than someone like Pele, Maradona, Zidane or even Messi.But I guess in soccer arent mid-field type players always considered the best players??

    Anyway back to my previous tweet, would love to see Novak and Houston face eachother in a 3pt shooting contest during practice lol

  104. BigBlueAL

    BTW yes I believe the current Knicks can beat the Celtics in a best-of-7 series. Granted it would be a toss-up series but w/o a healthy Ray Allen and no real size besides Garnett I think the Knicks are a better team right now.

  105. jon abbey

    I will say that my lasting memory of Melo from last season was him inexplicably almost letting almost the full 4 seconds run out before managing to foul a Celtic at the end of game 2, down just 94-93 at the time.

    he had 42 points, 17 boards and 6 assists in that game, by the way. as Owen said, NY fans can be tough. :)

  106. Owen

    Jon – I’ll be honest, I don’t buy the “momentum” element of Hollinger’s power ranking. It’s a lot like PER. It’s a stat that reflects what people think more than actual reality.

    Do you really think we are a top 5 team in the NBA? Or closer to the 11th that our SRS suggests we are?

    I would definitely say the latter….

  107. d-mar

    I’d like to believe the Bobcats are gonna show a little pride and put up a fight against the Magic, but when you lose at home by 26 to the Kings, you obviously just don’t give a crap.

  108. danvt

    I do think it’s relevant, at this point, to bring up the negatives that were expressed about Carmelo here, because, he has now had a regular season stretch that’s worthy of any player in team history. 39 points today in a road win in Atlanta. Carmelo Anthony fans are vindicated at KB. I was skeptical myself and admitted defeat here, but then I watched him will us into the playoffs.

    I think an argument can be made that the trade was worth it and, we
    actually can, gulp, give Dolan some credit.

  109. jon abbey

    BigBlueAL:
    BTW yes I believe the current Knicks can beat the Celtics in a best-of-7 series.Granted it would be a toss-up series but w/o a healthy Ray Allen and no real size besides Garnett I think the Knicks are a better team right now.

    it would require a huge effort from Shumpert against Rondo and Bradley, I wouldn’t bet on us if Ray Allen could play at all.

    anyway, it’s pretty unlikely we’ll see them, and if we do, the season will already be a huge success. :)

  110. Gideon Zaga

    By the way Football has changed dramatically because of these present day coaches, yes the Midfilders were always the best players or the number 10′s but nowadays they seem too quickly to change player position when they seem to produce goals. I think it ruins the game. Wenger is the number 1 culprit, he did it to Henry, he started as a winger, he did it to RVP, now Arshavin. Christiano Ronaldo started as a winger and now they’ve done it to Messi. So yeah the midfielders are the best players but since they’ve been changing positions I guess it’s ruined the whole thing.

  111. BigBlueAL

    Gideon Zaga:
    Henry??? Who dared mention Theiry Henry in that group of greats. Do not be mistaken, I’m an Arsenal fan and have been for all my life. Theiry Henry?? Really? Come on. Trust me, I love him and he was great but he just doesn’t have enough hardware to support it, except maybe his 4 top goal scorer titles in the premiership but you know in Football if you can’t bring your Country a World Cup it’s like not being in the Hall of Hall of Fames.

    He did lead France in goals scored at the 1998 WC although obviously he was a small part of that WC winning team. He couldve won another WC in 2006 but we all know what happened in the Final lol. Dunno if he ever was on a Euro championship team although he did finally win a Champions league with Barca no??

    I guess since when I first started following and somewhat enjoying watching soccer he was one of if not the best striker in the world and was fun to watch.

  112. jon abbey

    Owen:
    Jon – I’ll be honest, I don’t buy the “momentum” element of Hollinger’s power ranking. It’s a lot like PER. It’s a stat that reflects what people think more than actual reality.

    Do you really think we are a top 5 team in the NBA? Or closer to the 11th that our SRS suggests we are?

    I would definitely say the latter….

    against the West is much harder to say, but also doesn’t matter. I think it’s pretty clear that the Woodson Knicks are at worst 4th best in the East, they abused Indiana for two games and most of a third and held on in their only game against Boston.

  113. 2FOR18

    BigBlueAL:
    Hahn just tweeted:

    Perhaps second most important result of the day, after the scoring collaboration between Melo (39 points, 10 rebounds) and Amar’e (22 points, 12 rebounds), is the revelation by Landry Fields (7-for-8, 18 points) that he’s been working with Allan Houston on his shooting and game preparation. H20 helped Iman Shumpert’s J earlier this season. #shotdoctor

    Awesome. I was wondering why he actually had a nice arc on his shot today.

  114. ruruland

    Owen:
    Jon – For me, it actually was.

    I don’t know,I don’t judge a guy by his best performance, or his hottest stretch of play. I judge him on his overall body of work.

    And right now, with the Knicks barely making the playoffs, it just isn’t that impressive.

    Ruru acts like Melo is Moses but this doesn’t look like the Promised Land to me….

    Still trolling me Owen.

    13 of Melo’s 32 shots came with 5 seconds or less on the shot or game clock. The team took 20 of thost shots.

    Melo missed two shots on the same possession, something you have a very difficult time understanding ( I know you don’t watch the games but you should pay closer attention to the game logs)

  115. ruruland

    Owen:
    Jon – I’ll be honest, I don’t buy the “momentum” element of Hollinger’s power ranking. It’s a lot like PER. It’s a stat that reflects what people think more than actual reality.

    Do you really think we are a top 5 team in the NBA? Or closer to the 11th that our SRS suggests we are?

    I would definitely say the latter….

    There are so many things in the stats that you like to use (subjectively) that don’t depict “reality.”

  116. Owen

    Ruruland – Seriously? I thought that was what he was great at? The best bad shot shooter in the NBA.

    Look, when he is shooting 14-32 in the game that wins the NBA championship I will get excited about 14-32.

  117. ruruland

    jon abbey: yeah, much more memorable than him busting a couple of ridiculous threes to beat the team with the best record in the league in front of a screaming MSG crowd.

    Right, this is what I’m talking about.

  118. ruruland

    Owen:
    Ruruland – Seriously? I thought was what he was great at? The best bad shot shooter in the NBA.

    Look, when he is shooting 14-32 in the game that wins the NBA championship I will get excited about 14-32.

    Great is relative. It’s an extremely low success scenario. Even if Melo is very good at making difficult shots at the end of quarters — comparitively— it’s still going to lower his efficiency because of the sheer volume of these kinds of shots he takes.

    Gallo, for example, is an expert at passing the ball with 7-10 seconds left on the clock, putting guys like Harrington, Miller, Lawson etc al in a much tougher position to make a play.

    The WoW stats don’t differentiate between shot types — they’re all the same.

  119. Juany8

    I honestly can’t believe anyone thinks this team’s season stats mean absolutely anything. The only similarity between this team and the team that started 8-15 is that they wear the same jerseys, and this team has even less in common with the team from the Linsanity (or pre-Woodson) team. D’Antoni personally neutered Melo halfway through the season and Melo still has a .165 WS (higher than Lin by the way, who’s numbers are heavily influenced by the Linsanity streak)

  120. Doug

    Owen: The indelible image of Melo for me this season is him cracking a joke with an opposing player while inbounding the ball, then throwing it to the other team.

    My indelible image of Owen this season is now him living under a rock. ;)

  121. BigBlueAL

    Owen:
    Ruruland – Seriously? I thought that was what he was great at? The best bad shot shooter in the NBA.

    Look, when he is shooting 14-32 in the game that wins the NBA championship I will get excited about 14-32.

    Kobe shot 6-24 in a game that won the NBA championship :-)

  122. Owen

    “There are so many things in the stats that you like to use (subjectively) that don’t depict “reality.”

    Like I twisted the 2012 Nuggets into an equally good offensive team to the 2010 Nuggets?

    Seriously, what do Denver Nuggets fans think about Melo and their new team?

    I kind of bet there are plenty of Nuggets fans who are pretty delighted with their team and happy to see him gone.

  123. Owen

    My indelible image of Owen this season is now him living under a rock. ;)

    In my mother’s basement….

  124. Juany8

    Also, statistically speaking it would be very easy to adjust TS% to account for things like shot location, shot clock time, usage (TS% and Usage rate are not independent by any stretch of the imagination) and assisted basket percentage. TS% is what it is because people on the internet are too lazy to do actual scientific data gathering (this includes me by the way, I don’t do statistical work unless I’m getting paid for it lol), not because anything about TS% has been empirically proven to describe offensive performance (linear correlations and have never been empirical proof of anything ever)

  125. max fisher-cohen

    danvt: My problem with this is that it misses the point.The Knicks in April have had road wins that they haven’t had in over a decade and even wouldn’t so reliably get in the hey day of Ewing and Oak.We have a bulldog out of Syracuse playing the best basketball of his career.The narrative has changed.You’re still in March.

    I respect that that is YOUR narrative. You’re entitled to your opinion as am I. My perspective is I look at WHY we are winning and if it is sustainable, and my conclusion is that it’s highly unlikely.Part of our success is great defense (although it has slowly gotten less amazing since the huge uptick when Woodson took over) and I see Melo playing out of his mind on offense. I can see the defense staying strong, but I just don’t see Melo as the next Michael Jordan on offense. He’s been playing that way for about 3 weeks, but he’s just not that good. Once he reverts to the mean, and with Stoudemire playing starter minutes and hurting the defense while really not helping the offense much (because he and Melo are redundant), rather than the 58-62 win team we’ve looked like the last few weeks, I see us much more like the 48-52 win team that I expected to see at the beginning of the season.

    I then see no potential to add impact role players, and I just don’t see this team being anything more than the Atlanta Hawks part deux. Playoffs every year, and exits in the first or second round.

    I would love to be proven wrong, but I feel pretty confident (thought not 100% sure!) I won’t be, and if it’s the 2013 trade deadline and we’re sitting a few games over .500, I hope management has the cojones to make major changes.

  126. ruruland

    Owen:
    “There are so many things in the stats that you like to use (subjectively) that don’t depict “reality.”

    Like I twisted the 2012 Nuggets into an equally good offensive team to the 2010 Nuggets?

    Seriously, what do Denver Nuggets fans think about Melo and their new team?

    I kind of bet there are plenty of Nuggets fans who are pretty delighted with their team and happy to see him gone.

    No, that’s not what I’m talking about.

    Here again are the facts:

    The 2012 Nuggets score 3 less points per possession than the 2010 Nuggets.

    Every player from the 2010 team that played with Melo has suffered efficiency drops since the trade (quite dramatic in the case of Nene).

    6 of the 7 players that currently lead the Nuggets in efg% did not play on the 2010 team.

    The 2012 team is much better in transition and semi-transition, while the 2010 was better in the half-court.

    The Nuggets current personnel, of which there are only two rotation players from the 2010 team, is built for an up-tempo transition game — one that won’t work in the playoffs.

    The current Nuggets team is very talented offensively up and down the roster — a nice set of passers, runners and finishers. The 2009 and 2010 teams were better defensively.

    You’re a Nuggets fan. Why don’t you just come out of the closet and get it over with? A ton of bandwagoners over there.

  127. Juany8

    Owen:
    “There are so many things in the stats that you like to use (subjectively) that don’t depict “reality.”

    Like I twisted the 2012 Nuggets into an equally good offensive team to the 2010 Nuggets?

    Seriously, what do Denver Nuggets fans think about Melo and their new team?

    I kind of bet there are plenty of Nuggets fans who are pretty delighted with their team and happy to see him gone.

    You haven’t been on Nuggets blogs this year I take it. I can’t imagine too many fans are happy about dropping all the way to 7th in the West, especially when the conference is the weakest it’s been in years. If the Rockets hadn’t collapsed and Utah had a chance to let it’s young players get practice, the Nuggets might not have even made the playoffs. That’s a far way to drop in two seasons from a western conference contender. Hell they dropped in placing since last year’s Melo squad, even though the Western Conference was a lot harder last year

  128. ruruland

    Owen:
    Ruruland – Seriously? I thought that was what he was great at? The best bad shot shooter in the NBA.

    Look, when he is shooting 14-32 in the game that wins the NBA championship I will get excited about 14-32.

    So, you’re going to wait until Melo and the Knicks win an NBA championship to become a fan. That’s loyalty.

  129. Z-man

    Owen: But overall, scoring 39 points on 36 shots, it’s not that exciting to me.

    Owen: The indelible image of Melo for me this season is him cracking a joke with an opposing player while inbounding the ball, then throwing it to the other team.
    Also comparing Melo to Durant is ridiculous. Flat out ridiculous. We can have that discussion when people are arguing that Melo and not Lebron should be the MVP.

    Owen, you are right about Melo not being Durant, or LeBron for that matter. And Bernard King wasn’t Larry Bird or Magic Johnson, and Ewing wasn’t Hakeem. Melo is what he is, which is the best Knick player since Ewing and a sure-fire first ballot HOFer who will be the centerpiece of this team for at least the next 3 years. Your comments above, and on previous threads, strongly suggest that you just don’t like the guy and don’t really want to root for him, and that it’s personal. That’s a tough position for a fan to be in. I was pissed when Melo pulled that stunt as well, but I’ve seen Ewing, STAT, and yes, even the great Tyson Chandler do some bone-headed and selfish things. Not to mention Pippen, Kobe, Shaq, and other all-time great fan favorites. And, as it turns out, if he was being passive-agressive to get rid of D’Antoni, I’m kinda glad how it worked out. The fact that your indelible image of Melo is not consistent at all with what we’ve seen Melo do in the Woodson era is pretty telling. Just about everyone here agrees that we’d trade Melo for LeBron or Durant in a heartbeat, but those guys just weren’t and aren’t available. He is ours and he is not going to be traded or benched. Today wasn’t his best game statistically, but Durant had 35 pts on 34 shots today. Bottom line is, both are the heart and soul of their respective teams for the…

  130. ruruland

    max fisher-cohen: I respect that that is YOUR narrative. You’re entitled to your opinion as am I. My perspective is I look at WHY we are winning and if it is sustainable, and my conclusion is that it’s highly unlikely.Part of our success is great defense (although it has slowly gotten less amazing since the huge uptick when Woodson took over) and I see Melo playing out of his mind on offense. I can see the defense staying strong, but I just don’t see Melo as the next Michael Jordan on offense. He’s been playing that way for about 3 weeks, but he’s just not that good. Once he reverts to the mean, and with Stoudemire playing starter minutes and hurting the defense while really

    I then see no potential to add impact role players, and I just don’t see this team being anything more than the Atlanta Hawks part deux. Playoffs every year, and exits in the first or second round.

    I would love to be proven wrong, but I feel pretty confident (thought not 100% sure!) I won’t be, and if it’s the 2013 trade deadline and we’re sitting a few games over .500, I hope management has the cojones to make major changes.

    I really don’t think you’d love to be proven wrong. Look at how you’re reacting to the Woodson era.

    As if this is some kind of fluke stretch for Melo. He’s had much longer stretches than this at the same efficiency— and he hadn’t developed his 3pt shot to this extent.

    You get a pg that can’t feed him a few easy looks and maybe he can stay consistent with his efficiency moving forward. The last time he played with a pg who could help him get a few easy baskets he had a 95 game stretch with 573 TS (30+ ppg) before he had developed his 3pt shot.

    melo and Amar’e didn’t look redundant today.

  131. 2FOR18

    ruruland: So, you’re going to wait until Melo and the Knicks win an NBA championship to become a fan. That’s loyalty.

    How do you have the balls to question anyone’s fan loyalty, when you just jumped from the Nuggets to the Knicks? This is one meme of yours that needs to be retired.

  132. ruruland

    ruruland: No, that’s not what I’m talking about.

    Here again are the facts:

    The 2012 Nuggets score 3 lesspoints per possession than the 2010 Nuggets.

    Every player from the 2010 team that played with Melo has suffered efficiency drops since the trade (quite dramatic in the case of Nene).

    6 of the 7 players that currently lead the Nuggets in efg% did not play on the 2010 team.

    The 2012 team is much better in transition and semi-transition, while the 2010 was better in the half-court.

    The Nuggets current personnel, of which there are only two rotation players from the 2010 team, is built for an up-tempo transition game — one that won’t work in the playoffs.

    The current Nuggets team is very talented offensively up and down the roster — a nice set of passers, runners and finishers.The 2009 and 2010 teams were better defensively.

    You’re a Nuggets fan. Why don’t you just come out of the closet and get it over with? A ton of bandwagoners over there.

    * per 100 possessions.

  133. Owen

    Have you been on Nuggets blogs? Seriously, what are they saying? Not kidding, I am actually curious…

    “The 2012 Nuggets score 3 less points per possession than the 2010 Nuggets”

    What’s your response again to the fact that league average this year is 3 points lower this year? Or are you just ignoring that fact because it doesn’t fit the narrative?

    What you wrote above, it kind of seems like it boils down to, they miss him on defense.

    And yes, there is a case to be made that having Melo out there lets you field a bunch of good defensive players.

    But that’s not exactly the strategy we are pursuing here pairing Melo with Stat.

  134. Z-man

    …next few seasons. I for one will enjoy the ride, criticizing Melo when he deserves it but always hoping he plays like a superstar, i.e. like he’s done since Woodson took over.

  135. 2FOR18

    Juany8:
    Also, statistically speaking it would be very easy to adjust TS% to account for things like shot location, shot clock time, usage (TS% and Usage rate are not independent by any stretch of the imagination) and assisted basket percentage. TS% is what it is because people on the internet are too lazy to do actual scientific data gathering (this includes me by the way, I don’t do statistical work unless I’m getting paid for it lol), not because anything about TS% has been empirically proven to describe offensive performance (linear correlations and have never been empirical proof of anything ever)

    There needs to be an OPS+ type adjustment for each advanced stat that adjusts for era as well.

  136. ruruland

    2FOR18: How do you have the balls to question anyone’s fan loyalty, when you just jumped from the Nuggets to the Knicks?This is one meme of yours that needs to be retired.

    I haven’t jumped at all, actually. I really dislike the fanbase in Denver for a few reasons. But I’m always going to be a Denver fan, even when I don’t necessarily like the direction they head in at times.

    I’ve been a fan of that team when they’ve sunk far lower than the Knicks have without ever making an NBA Finals.

    But, I also have a connection with Melo, and would be a huge fan of his If I didn’t because of what he meant to the franchise in turning it around from the lowest of lows.

    I’m not a total laundry worhsipper. I was still a huge Mutombo fan when he left Denver. Rooted for Van Exel and Lafrentz in Dallas. This list goes on. When guys give so much to the team, city, community over many years, I’m not one to stop rooting for them just because they wear different colors.

  137. 2FOR18

    Z-man:
    That is an interesting concept, like how we adjust financial figures for inflation?

    I would want my stat to be better than that, since for some reason the Feds don’t include gas and food prices when measuring inflation :)

  138. d-mar

    Jameer Nelson left the Nuggets game with a calf injury. Now if 3 or 4 more Magic starters get injured, the Bobcats may be able to keep it close.

  139. ruruland

    Owen:
    Have you been on Nuggets blogs? Seriously, what are they saying? Not kidding, I am actually curious…

    “The 2012 Nuggets score 3 less points per possession than the 2010 Nuggets”

    What’s your response again to the fact that league average this year is 3 points lower this year? Or are you just ignoring that fact because it doesn’t fit the narrative?

    What you wrote above, it kind of seems like it boils down to, they miss him on defense.

    And yes, there is a case to be made that having Melo out there lets you field a bunch of good defensive players.

    But that’s not exactly the strategy we are pursuing here pairing Melo with Stat.

    We’ve seen tremendous variance in efficiency this year. While the majority of teams are down, some teams and players are up.

    A team like Denver, which thrives in unorganized play, would seem to have an advantage over other teams in this way.

    You don’t seem to make this correction for Melo or other Knicks who’ve struggled this year, but you’re more than willing to do it for the Nuggets.

    The teams are almost completely different– different players, different strengths and weaknesses. That’s a large part of this argument you continue to gloss over.

  140. ruruland

    2FOR18: There needs to be an OPS+ type adjustment for each advanced stat that adjusts for era as well.

    That’s what PEr tries to do. Still not close though.

  141. Z-man

    2FOR18: I would want my stat to be better than that, since for some reason the Feds don’t include gas and food prices when measuring inflation :)

    What would be a good “base year?”

  142. 2FOR18

    ruruland: I haven’t jumped at all, actually. I really dislike the fanbase in Denver for a few reasons. But I’m always going to be a Denver fan, even when I don’t necessarily like the direction they head in at times.

    I’ve been a fan of that team when they’ve sunk far lower than the Knicks have without ever making an NBA Finals.

    But, I also have a connection with Melo, and would be a huge fan of his If I didn’t because of what he meant to the franchise in turning it around from the lowest of lows.

    I’m not a total laundry worhsipper. I was still a huge Mutombo fan when he left Denver. Rooted for Van Exel and Lafrentz in Dallas. This list goes on. When guys give so much to the team, city, community over many years, I’m not one to stop rooting for them just because they wear different colors.

    I loved Deke too. I think he would eat Dwight Howard’s lunch in this watered down era re: the center position.

  143. Bruno Almeida

    2FOR18: How do you have the balls to question anyone’s fan loyalty, when you just jumped from the Nuggets to the Knicks?This is one meme of yours that needs to be retired.

    I’ve made the same question and he has refused to answer…

    and no, nobody is going to wait until we win a title to cheer for the Knicks, we all, and I’m sure Owen is included, root for New York to win all the time.

    I just don’t get why the hell should we change our analysis or point of views to become blind fans.

    New York fans are critical and they’re always going to be, this is a city that has seen HUGE success in sports and won’t settle for being Atlanta part deux (again, awesome points max).

    this team is poised to be Atlanta v2.0, and if you ask me, this isn’t what I signed up for when we have 2 max guys on our payroll.

  144. 2FOR18

    ruruland: I haven’t jumped at all, actually. I really dislike the fanbase in Denver for a few reasons. But I’m always going to be a Denver fan, even when I don’t necessarily like the direction they head in at times.

    I’ve been a fan of that team when they’ve sunk far lower than the Knicks have without ever making an NBA Finals.

    But, I also have a connection with Melo, and would be a huge fan of his If I didn’t because of what he meant to the franchise in turning it around from the lowest of lows.

    I’m not a total laundry worhsipper. I was still a huge Mutombo fan when he left Denver. Rooted for Van Exel and Lafrentz in Dallas. This list goes on. When guys give so much to the team, city, community over many years, I’m not one to stop rooting for them just because they wear different colors.

    Oh, I meant to add…

    So if Denver plays the Knicks in the Finals, who do you root for?
    ie. when I lived in Denver I rooted for the Nuggets, but I always rooted for the Knicks when they played them, so that’s how you know where your heart is.

  145. 2FOR18

    d-mar:
    Jameer Nelson left the Nuggets game with a calf injury. Now if 3 or 4 more Magic starters get injured, the Bobcats may be able to keep it close.

    Duhon, Reddick, Anderson, Big Baby Davis and me could beat Charlotte

  146. Owen

    “Melo is what he is, which is the best Knick player since Ewing and a sure-fire first ballot HOFer who will be the centerpiece of this team for at least the next 3 years. Your comments above, and on previous threads, strongly suggest that you just don’t like the guy and don’t really want to root for him, and that it’s personal. That’s a tough position for a fan to be in.”

    Look, I honestly have no idea what Melo is like as a person. It really doesn’t matter to me that he has a giant portrait of himself over his fireplace. Seriously. Nothing I say about him is driven by any personal feeling I have for or against him. That’s something you can’t say about others on this site.

    Anyone who has spent the last five years suffering through my posts on this site knows I am about the numbers. IF Melo were putting up the kind of numbers that championship centerpieces generally do you wouldn’t be hearing anything from me.

    And I have said it before. What I want as a Knicks fan is a championship team. And if you had to ask me who my primary allegiance is to, it’s to other Knicks fans, who I think are the best basketball fans in the world, and who deserve better than the tripe Dolan has served up in the last ten years.

    And seriously, if you are a Royals fan, do you have to like Yuniesky Betancourt? What is this idea that being a fan requires putting on a pair of blinders?

  147. maxwell_3g

    ruruland:
    Amar’e Stoudemire actually just said this: “It was a phenomenal game. From what coach Woody’s (Mike Woodson) saying, the way to win a championship is defense and rebounding.”

    he has to be the least self aware, most self delusional player in the league

  148. ruruland

    2FOR18: I loved Deke too.I think he would eat Dwight Howard’s lunch in this watered down era re: the center position.

    those bows could intimidate man. It’s unfortunate he had to be in the Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson era at the end of the Ewing era—

    he averaged 4+ blocks on low possessions teams. Unfortunate he never played on a really good team. Amazing human being…. That ’94 season got me hooked on basketball. Remember, not only did they beat Seattle, they took Utah to seven games after being down 3-0.

  149. max fisher-cohen

    @ruru, again you’re doubting my desire to see the team win. Why can’t it be that I’m just trying to look at the big picture? You sincerely think Melo can sustain the way he’s played across a whole season? I’m not saying he’ll turn into a pumpkin, just that he’s been way better than he’s been on average for his career.

    Melo’s stats while Amare was hurt:

    TS%: 59.6%
    3pt %: 45%
    AST%: 20.5%
    STL%: 2.1%
    BLK%: 1.5%
    TRB%: 12.1
    TOV%: 9.7%

    Melo’s career bests across a full season in the same categories:

    TS%: 56.8% (2007-08)
    3pt%: 37.8% (2010-11)
    AST%: 19.2% (2006-07)
    STL%: 1.7% (5 different seasons)
    BLK%: 1.3% (2010-11)
    TRB%: 11.8% (2010-11)
    TOV%: 10.4% (2005-06 & 2010-11)

    So over during those 13 games Amar’e missed, Melo performed above his BEST year in every single advanced statistic Basketball-reference provides as well as 3pt shooting.

    For comparison, here’s Jordan in 95/96 (about an average year when he was winning titles):

    TS%: 58.2%
    3pt%: 42.7% (his best full year by far)
    AST%: 21.2%
    STL%: 3.1%
    BLK%: 1%
    TRB%: 10.2%
    TOV%: 8.4%

    Melo is more efficient, a better rebounder, and better at blocking shots in these last 13 games. Jordan has the edge in steals, turnovers and assists. Melo leads by more in the categories that he’s better in.

    So am I still just revealing my colors as a ninja Melo assassin, or am I simply expressing the reasonable expectation that Melo will not continue to play this way? Let’s say Melo reverts to his career high numbers on full seasons. Is it not fair to say that those statistical dropoffs from these last 13 games, in tandem with the loss of JR and Novak, would be worth maybe 3-5 points across an entire game? Further, would not that 3-5 point drop off make us look much closer to a 50 win team (with a win margin of around 4ppg) and second round playoff victim than a contender?

  150. Doug

    This “you’re not a real fan” argument is incredibly childish. No one over the age of 12 should be caught dead using it. It’s amazing to me that we have so many people that claim to be “objective” and above cheap sentimental tribalism as sports fans. But they’ll be all “NUH-UH, UR NOT ORIGINAL ENOUGH SO I DON’T HAVE TO LISTEN TO YOU ANYWAY” at the drop of a hat.

    To be a Knicks fan is to be a giant basket case. Thank you Based God for the Yankees.

  151. jon abbey

    we all want the team to win a championship, but it’s a lot easier to say Melo isn’t the guy to lead us there than actually obtain someone better. not to mention, we somehow lucked into getting maybe the perfect partner for him in Chandler. how many teams in the league have a better two man core than that to try to build around? if we can keep JR Smith and Lin and everyone else can stay healthy, this team will be dangerous. will they be title favorites? no, but no scenario after LeBron went to Miami would have them as title favorites anytime soon.

    plus Chris Paul can still come here after next season for the midcap:

    Paul/Shumpert/Melo/Amare/Chandler

    :)

  152. Z-man

    Owen: Anyone who has spent the last five years suffering through my posts on this site knows I am about the numbers. IF Melo were putting up the kind of numbers that championship centerpieces generally do you wouldn’t be hearing anything from me.

    But Melo has in fact been putting up those numbers in the home stretch, concurrent with the dawn of Woodson era. All I am saying is that if Melo plays consistently like he has since the coaching change, and you continue to bring up tthings he did earlier in the season as having left an “indelible impression” on you, then you will be the one with the blinders on. He’s still only 27, and again, he’s further along in terms of playoff experience than Pierce, Allen or Garnett were over their first 9 years.

    Everyone wants a championship team, and even teams that do the statistically-prudent thing don’e necessarily get one. Kobe, who for numbers guys is very Melo-like, has 5 and he’s been on a max contract for nearly a decade. Will Denver get one before us?

  153. david

    At risk of changing the subject from the most endless debate of all time, here are a few Knicks related questions…

    1. Why are there so few plays designed for Novak? He’s our most efficient scorer and particularly when Melo’s out, we need to get him the ball. I know he’s not great coming of screens, but there must be something.

    2. Why don’t we run any big-big PnRs? Other teams run a 3-5 PnR with a lot of success because they have shooters or drivers ready to catch the ball when the defense reacts. OKC when they don’t go into hero ball mode in the 4th quarter run a lot of this set. A Melo-Chandler wing PnR could be nasty.

    3. What lineup do people think we should run in the 8-10 minutes Melo doesn’t play?

    Other topics?

  154. johnlocke

    …and the Giants!

    Doug:
    This “you’re not a real fan” argument is incredibly childish. No one over the age of 12 should be caught dead using it. It’s amazing to me that we have so many people that claim to be “objective” and above cheap sentimental tribalism as sports fans. But they’ll be all “NUH-UH, UR NOT ORIGINAL ENOUGH SO I DON’T HAVE TO LISTEN TO YOU ANYWAY” at the drop of a hat.

    To be a Knicks fan is to be a giant basket case. Thank you Based God for the Yankees.

  155. ruruland

    I hear you Max, but what people like Owen continue to dismiss are the factors that have figured into Melo’s career statistically.
    I think he’s unique because he scores in so many different — some more efficiently than others– but he’s been asked to score in less efficient ways on his recent teams.

    I’ve explained what happened during Melo’s best seasons, breaking it down by assisted baskets, health etc. if you look at his best seasons, you see the same factors over and over.

    You also see a pattern with the different iterations of teams around him. From the Miller to Iverson team, you see an adjustment phase of about 50 or so games. From the Iverson to Billups team, you see and adjustment phase of about 60 games.

    In the final 50 games with Iverson he had a .593 TS. iverson was an extremly difficult player to adjust to and get a rhthym with. but when Melo figured it out, he was playing like he is now over a MUCH longer stretch.

    We see a very similar stretch with Billups before the wrist injuries beset Melo in January of 2010.

    Again, this is coming off a 90 game stretch with a 573 ts playing alongisde Andre Miller –a stretch that saw Melo get better and better over every 3 month block.

    All of these numbers were accumulated before Melo had developed a 3 pt shot. His free throw % has also improved the last 3 years.

    I think Melo can play at a 580-590 TS level if he gets a few easy baskets from his point guard. but more importantly, how good can the offense be if you have a 580-600 TS PF, say a 560 SF (just to be really conservative), a 700 TS center, and a 560-570 Pg with 3 pt shooting off the bench??

    Is that not effieicnt enough with a top ten defense, and have we not seen signs that that is quite possible?

  156. johnlocke

    Your points are valid – looking at the big picture. The great job of being a fan is that we get the enjoy the right now…and right now, our star player is playing like a legit superstar and our team is winning include beating elite teams. When was the last time in 10 years we could have said that? Who knows how Melo will play next year or what the overall team will look like — but it’s not entirely unreasonable to assume Melo could keep playing the way he his, through the playoffs…that’s what 28 games max? =) And for right now that’s all that matters…let’s address the trading melo scenarios next season

    max fisher-cohen:
    @ruru, again you’re doubting my desire to see the team win. Why can’t it be that I’m just trying to look at the big picture? You sincerely think Melo can sustain the way he’s played across a whole season? I’m not saying he’ll turn into a pumpkin, just that he’s been way better than he’s been on average for his career.

  157. johnlocke

    I know Paul was a joke….but we can’t afford JR next year

    jon abbey:
    we all want the team to win a championship, but it’s a lot easier to say Melo isn’t the guy to lead us there than actually obtain someone better. not to mention, we somehow lucked into getting maybe the perfect partner for him in Chandler. how many teams in the league have a better two man core than that to try to build around? if we can keep JR Smith and Lin and everyone else can stay healthy, this team will be dangerous. will they be title favorites? no, but no scenario after LeBron went to Miami would have them as title favorites anytime soon.

    plus Chris Paul can still come here after next season for the midcap:

    Paul/Shumpert/Melo/Amare/Chandler

    :)

  158. Owen

    “But Melo has in fact been putting up those numbers in the home stretch, concurrent with the dawn of Woodson era.”

    A new dawn!!!!

    I don’t know how many times I can say it. No one will be happier than me when Melo wins us a championship.

    I just don’t see it happening.

  159. ruruland

    Doug:
    This “you’re not a real fan” argument is incredibly childish. No one over the age of 12 should be caught dead using it. It’s amazing to me that we have so many people that claim to be “objective” and above cheap sentimental tribalism as sports fans. But they’ll be all “NUH-UH, UR NOT ORIGINAL ENOUGH SO I DON’T HAVE TO LISTEN TO YOU ANYWAY” at the drop of a hat.

    To be a Knicks fan is to be a giant basket case. Thank you Based God for the Yankees.

    That’s my bad for trying to pull the fan card on folks. Being a fan is whatever you want it to be I guess.

  160. johnlocke

    1. Novak doesn’t have great mobility and one of the players that’s best at getting him open via screens has been injured – Jeffries, that and defenses are sticking to him like glue…which should be helping our penetration game.
    2. We’ll start running more PnR with Amare back. Davis is capable of running it. Not sure best use of Melo’s skillset is in the pick and roll game (see first half of season versus Woodson era, etc)
    3. Woodson will figure that one out…Chandler, Amare, Novak, JR Smith, Shump is a good lineup without Melo. You can sub Shump for Baron…both JR and Baron can run the PnR with Amare

    david:
    At risk of changing the subject from the most endless debate of all time, here are a few Knicks related questions…

    1.Why are there so few plays designed for Novak? He’s our most efficient scorer and particularly when Melo’s out, we need to get him the ball.I know he’s not great coming of screens, but there must be something.

    2.Why don’t we run any big-big PnRs? Other teams run a 3-5 PnR with a lot of success because they have shooters or drivers ready to catch the ball when the defense reacts.OKC when they don’t go into hero ball mode in the 4th quarter run a lot of this set. A Melo-Chandler wing PnR could be nasty.

    3.What lineup do people think we should run in the 8-10 minutes Melo doesn’t play?

    Other topics?

  161. PC

    Juany8:
    I honestly can’t believe anyone thinks this team’s season stats mean absolutely anything. The only similarity between this team and the team that started 8-15 is that they wear the same jerseys, and this team has even less in common with the team from the Linsanity (or pre-Woodson) team. D’Antoni personally neutered Melo halfway through the season and Melo still has a .165 WS (higher than Lin by the way, who’s numbers are heavily influenced by the Linsanity streak)

    Could not agree more.

  162. johnlocke

    By the way, that’s a pretty unfair bar. Lots of great players haven’t won championships and when they did, it wasn’t just because of the star player. We need the right players to complement 2 or 3 of Melo, Amare and Tyson over the next 3-4 years. Will we ever have a superstar trio better than Lebron, Wade and Bosh? Probably not, but neither did the Mavericks, we need to build a good team. I don’t think there’s strong evidence that a player with Melo’s skill-set couldn’t be a key part of a championship team. He was on a team that lost to the eventual champions in the WCF, largely due to other worldly performances by Kobe Bryant

    Owen:
    “But Melo has in fact been putting up those numbers in the home stretch, concurrent with the dawn of Woodson era.”

    A new dawn!!!!

    I don’t know how many times I can say it. No one will be happier than me when Melo wins us a championship.

    I just don’t see it happening.

  163. Owen

    “By the way, that’s a pretty unfair bar. Lots of great players haven’t won championships and when they did, it wasn’t just because of the star player.”

    Is it? Is Melo our Karl Malone?

  164. danvt

    max fisher-cohen: I then see no potential to add impact role players, and I just don’t see this team being anything more than the Atlanta Hawks part deux. Playoffs every year, and exits in the first or second round.

    Yeah, this is the narrative. And, what else? Oh yeah, Iso’s, ball stoppage, not as good as LBJ, not compatible with Amar’e, poor defense. Did I get them all?

    I guess, I just don’t get why any of that stuff is apropos right now. NYK is good and getting better. How good can they be? I don’t know if their destiny is a championship but I don’t know if it tops out at a 2nd round ouster either. Tyson Chandler’s team beat Lebron’s last year.

  165. ruruland

    johnlocke: Quote

    And to the fact that that Nuggets team second and third best players– Billups and Nene– were not nearly as good as Bynum and Gasol. Nor did Denver have a rim-protector like CHandler.

    Still….
    The Nuggets had a lead in 75% of the minutes in that series, and were a few breaks away from winning a close game 1,3 and 5 — Kobe got some freak calls, Denver missed a few rebounds, and fouled up two inbounds plays.

  166. ruruland

    Owen:
    “But Melo has in fact been putting up those numbers in the home stretch, concurrent with the dawn of Woodson era.”
    No one will be happier than me when Melo wins us a championship.

    I

    I sincerely doubt that’s true considering how much of your ego has been involved to this point. Given how much time you’ve dedicated to trying to convince people this scenario isn’t possible, Melo leading the Knicks to a title would be pretty humiliating.

  167. johnlocke

    Did you finish reading the part where I said Melo has already been the key player on a team that went to the WCF and lost to the eventual champions? Beating teams led by Chris Paul and Dirk Nowitzi along the way? Was Patrick Ewing a failure, should we have tried to trade the team to get MJ? Look, my point is that I’m all for calling out our players when they are stinking up the joint — but what’s the point now that Melo and the team is playing well to pretend he is the sole source of the reason we won’t win a championship? Ay-ya-yi. Good night.

    Owen:
    “By the way, that’s a pretty unfair bar. Lots of great players haven’t won championships and when they did, it wasn’t just because of the star player.”

    Is it? Is Melo our Karl Malone?

  168. 2FOR18

    max fisher-cohen: So am I still just revealing my colors as a ninja Melo assassin, or am I simply expressing the reasonable expectation that Melo will not continue to play this way? Let’s say Melo reverts to his career high numbers on full seasons. Is it not fair to say that those statistical dropoffs from these last 13 games, in tandem with the loss of JR and Novak, would be worth maybe 3-5 points across an entire game? Further, would not that 3-5 point drop off make us look much closer to a 50 win team (with a win margin of around 4ppg) and second round playoff victim than a contender?

    Re: melo’s career high averages, I bring up my favorite quote about averages: If you have one foot in a bucket of ice water and one foot in a fire, on average, your feet are comfortable.

    From what I’ve seen this year, maybe melo is a guy who’s either red hot or terrible, making his averages over a season less meaningful, meaning his averages aren’t real numbers. So maybe he can play at this supermelo level through the playoffs, even though he’ll never be supermelo for a whole season like the rarified players such as MJ/LeBron, etc.

    Or maybe I should go to bed.

  169. ruruland

    2FOR18: Re: melo’s career high averages, I bring up my favorite quote about averages: If you have one foot in a bucket of ice water and one foot in a fire, on average, your feet are comfortable.

    From what I’ve seen this year, maybe melo is a guy who’s either red hot or terrible, making his averages over a season less meaningful, meaning his averages aren’t real numbers.So maybe he can play at this supermelo level through the playoffs, even though he’ll never be supermelo for a whole season like the rarified players such as MJ/LeBron, etc.

    Or maybe I should go to bed.

    Well, of course, WoW folks are forced to believe that all averages are just that— any fluctuations from the mean are basically random. Their would be no way to predict Kevin Love turning into 40 percent three point shooter after shooting 10 percent his rookie year. The list of guys who had pretty significant career efficiency fluctuations is of course very long –but to WoW folks it’s basically random.

    There are no interactions effects and every kind of shot is the same.

    But, of course, that’s wrong. There are clearly factors that play into Melo’s play — some his teammates, some his role, some his health — none of which are abstract.

  170. Gideon Zaga

    Oh Boo hoo. My Dads favorite saying would come at this point: Son two things in this life make guys stupid, sports and women. I love the dialogue and I’m not insulting anyone. I can see some of you are out for blood. But at the end of the day, Go Knicks!!!

  171. max fisher-cohen

    Yeah, I mean there are certainly reasons to hope, and ruru, you do a fine job of digging them up and putting them out here. I just feel like you always focus on the positives — the evidence suggesting that this can work — rather the negatives — the evidence that it won’t work. You’re absolutely entitled to do that. And maybe the reason why the board sometimes feels so flooded with anti-Melo factoids is because you do such a good job of citing the pro-Melo factoids that the nerdy, pragmatists among us feel the need to balance the argument out.

    Last word on this (at least for a week or two!): I guess it’s time for another morbid father analogy. You’re the father of a fuck up kid named Knick. Knick does great every time he takes a standardized test — he clearly has a lot of talent — but he spends his days both in school and after, experimenting with various illegal substances. Then he gets arrested for possession and spends a year in juvey, and when he comes out, re-enrolls in high school and for three weeks just gets A after A!

    Put yourself in Knick’s dad’s position. First, you are absolutely enthralled with the progress. You have real hope for the first time in a while. However, do you BELIEVE now, after those 3 weeks, that all of Knick’s problems are in the past, that they’ll never come up again? I highly doubt it. You’ve dealt with him his whole teenage trainwreck of a life, and you still haven’t seen evidence that his social anxieties and self-destructive behavior aren’t sitting there just beneath the surface, waiting to be triggered.

    I don’t mean to say this team is drug addled, just that it’s been dysfunctional for a while, and it’s not clear to me that the causes of that dysfunction are gone.

    IMHO, it’s fine to hope, and it’s not even irrational to have hope. What’s irrational (and dangerous when we’re talking about people and not sports) is to transpose your hopes with your expectations.

  172. Owen

    JohnLocke- I didn’t catch it actually. It’s true, Melo did get out of the first round one year.

    Look, if you are telling me that Melo is going to be our Ewing and someday down the road luck into an title run and come tragically but gloriously short of the title I can deal with that…..

    “Re: melo’s career high averages, I bring up my favorite quote about averages: If you have one foot in a bucket of ice water and one foot in a fire, on average, your feet are comfortable.”

    That’s a good one.

  173. ruruland

    “IMHO, it’s fine to hope, and it’s not even irrational to have hope. What’s irrational (and dangerous when we’re talking about people and not sports)”is to transpose your hopes with your expectations.

    That’s a great line, but I think, to me, that’s the beauty of being a sports fan.

    Expectations don’t mean much if emotion is all we are vesting. If you can handle disappointment in that way, so long as we’re dealing with things that are possible, then I think that’s the way to do it.

  174. Owen

    I again agree with Max.

    Ruruland – Look, just try to keep it fair and balanced. I honestly think if you could just keep from putting Melo on the pedestal you do all the time, it wouldn’t really be such an issue.

    And here is my tip of the day for you. Take a read. I read this a long time ago. Might help with the Melo defending.

    http://basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1412

    And also, a long time ago, I didn’t want to trade David Lee for Kobe. And it has not escaped my notice that David Lee’s numbers, upon switching to a totally different context, haven’t quite matched up to expectations. Just a thought the next time you want to shut me down.

  175. max fisher-cohen

    @ruru, I agree. I guess that’s what distinguishes Knick fans from those of most sports teams. We’re damaged. I tried to hope thing so many times. If you go back to the middle of this past decade, I used to come on KB (under a different handle) and defend Eddy Curry. I really wanted to believe he could be great. Again, not saying Melo and Curry are equals. They absolutely aren’t. However, a lot of that hoping has been sucked out of me because my hopes have continually been undermined.

  176. ruruland

    Owen:
    I again agree with Max.

    Ruruland –

    And here is my tip of the day for you. Take a read. I read this a long time ago. Might help with the Melo defending.

    Tip of the day for me?? Look I appreciate you trying to reach out a little bit, but I don’t want to talk about Melo more than anyone else.

    I mean, I’ve talked about this for a long time (the Melo effect). So why do you argue with me when we talk about interaction effects and how Melo improves his teammates efficiency through attention and shot creation???

    I don’t know why you’d post this article when you’ve spent so much time refuting the author’s arguments (without data).

    What is that about, Owen??? Was all of this just a ruse?

    “Using plus-minus statistics provides another way of checking Anthony’s impact on the Denver offense……. Prior to this year, Denver’s Offensive Rating was at least 2.0 points better per 100 possessions in every year of Anthony’s career. The average impact in this span was +4.6 points per 100 possessions. Despite the fact that his own efficiency has been middling at times, Anthony has consistently lifted the Nuggets’ offense with his ability to create shots.”

    “The Carmelo effect appears to create 9.3 wins per 82 games, or 7.5 over the 66 games Anthony actually played last season–a figure 50 percent higher than the value WARP assigns his usage.”

  177. ruruland

    max fisher-cohen:
    @ruru, I agree. I guess that’s what distinguishes Knick fans from those of most sports teams. We’re damaged. I tried to hope thing so many times. If you go back to the middle of this past decade, I used to come on KB (under a different handle) and defend Eddy Curry. I really wanted to believe he could be great. Again, not saying Melo and Curry are equals. They absolutely aren’t. However, a lot of that hoping has been sucked out of me because my hopes have continually been undermined.

    I hear you, Max, but I don’t know why Knicks fans think they are special in this way ( And I recognize you guys are by and large great fans)

    Born a die-hard Denver fan, I know what it feels like to be in a city championship drought. Denver used to have multi-generational, blue-collar fans that filled all of the pro stadiums, set virtually all of the major attendance records in all the major sports. They waited over 40 years to win a championship. They saw their greatest sports hero get embarrassed 3 consecutive Super Bowls. They saw their basketball team get demolished year after year in the playoffs. There was plenty of heartbreak. But, to me, their was never self-pity or loss of hope. I just think it’s an attitude thing. I don’t think I’d want to be a fan of any team if I felt that I DESERVED to have a champion. Being a fan is about investing your emotions, even if it means there’s a good chance you’ll be disappointed. When you do get to follow a team that goes all the way, it makes you feel as though you somehow played a part in it. AS a fan, that’s what we all want to feel in some way or another.

    That, to me, is what it’s all about.

  178. Juany8

    Lol guys, try being a fan in Houston. Damaged fan bases my ass, rooting for the Rockets, Texans, and Astros is simply painful, there’s huge reasons for optimism every year before they are crushed in the most painful possible way. The only sports fans that get any pity from me are Cleveland fans, they just get boned for fun it seems like. Houston fans only have to deal with things like every star player going down with major injuries… every year. Yao Ming was so much better than Dwight Howard it’s actually kind of sad, and yet here’s Dwight getting major media attention for being the best big man in the league

  179. Brian Cronin

    Lol guys, try being a fan in Houston. Damaged fan bases my ass, rooting for the Rockets, Texans, and Astros is simply painful, there’s huge reasons for optimism every year before they are crushed in the most painful possible way. The only sports fans that get any pity from me are Cleveland fans, they just get boned for fun it seems like. Houston fans only have to deal with things like every star player going down with major injuries… every year. Yao Ming was so much better than Dwight Howard it’s actually kind of sad, and yet here’s Dwight getting major media attention for being the best big man in the league

    Yeah, a good friend of mine is a transplanted Houston fan in New York and, well, yeah, you guys are quite tortured. Then again, he (and you, I am sure) have that back-to-back title to look back on. We have a title from…39 years ago!

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