Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Thursday, April 17, 2014

Knicks 112, Wizards 91

The Knicks won their second game in as many nights, handing the Washington Wizards a 112-91 defeat. On offense it was a team effort as 6 New Yorkers had double digit points. Toney Douglas led the team in scoring with 19 points, and although he needed 19 shots to accomplish it, he contributed a lot in the other areas. The Knicks guard had a Clyde-esque 5 steals and 10 rebounds, along with 3 assists. Stoudemire dropped 18 points with only 11 attempts, but had 4 blocks and most importantly only 2 turnovers.

It was a game were seemingly every player in white, blue, and orange had a good night. Gallinari nailed 4 of 9 from downtown. Timofev Mozgov stole the ball and showed some agility going the length of the court (only to be fouled at the rim). The biggest theatrical moment was Wilson Chandler throwing down a thunderous dunk, a play that will undoubtedly be shown on every recap of the game.

However the best thing to take from this game is that New York has won the games that they should be. In recent history, optimistic Knick fans were inventing reasons why their team should be respected. For instance after a 3 point loss, the idealist would say that New York was just a shot away from victory. So far in the 2011 season, there is reason to be optimistic. No excuse is required.

116 comments on “Knicks 112, Wizards 91

  1. BigBlueAL

    I will truly be excited if the Knicks do the same thing to Philly that they did to the Wizards tonight. lol

  2. latke

    BigBlueAL: I will truly be excited if the Knicks do the same thing to Philly that they did to the Wizards tonight.lol  

    If we play as well as we did tonight I see no reason we lose to philadelphia. They are not a great team, and they’ve been worse than expected. Dalembert was a big loss to them. I thought at the time that they gave him up to make time for Marreese Speights, who showed real promise in his first two seasons, but he’s not even playing 10MPG right now. Elton Brand is playing a lot better this year though, although it hasn’t added up to wins.

    Over the course of the season, my main anxiety is Turiaf getting hurt. He’s injury prone, and every time he gets hit he looks like he’s in serious pain (although I imagine a lot of that is showmanship). I think he’s a big part of the reason why our defense has been solid, and the result of him going down is 30mpg for Anthony Randolph (Eddy Curry?)…

  3. BigBlueAL

    My point was if they blow out Philly like they did Washington tonight it is a sign that this team is mature and hopefully good enough to win most of their games vs the crap of the East which is alot of teams. If they do that they will easily make the playoffs and could maybe even get up into the 6th seed if the Bucks arent as good as they were last year which seems might be the case.

    I would love it if this team is good enough that the playoffs are a far gone conclusion come March/April and those months are played to maybe actually get a decent seed like 6th or maybe even 5th if the Bulls dont have a real good record by that time. Of course I will still gladly take the 8th seed. lol

  4. Droidz1979

    Just picked TDDWTDD for my fantasy league by dropping Ramon Sessions.. hope it would be worth it for the rest of the season eventhough i have my fingers crossed. He needs to jack up the steals and the 3-point shooting stat in between for the Knicks to win and as an added bonus (points) for my team.

    Knicks just made up my day with the 2-win streak.. better make it 3 with Philly.

  5. bob cook

    Watching these early games has been the most fun I’ve had as a fan since the millenium flipped. Here are some reactions:

    What a pleasure it is to watch blocked shots, steals and drawn charges (by Stats no less). I thought Mike couldn’t coach defense. Apparently he can with a vengeance.

    I thought Turiaff was some sort of throw in from GS. But what a horse! He rebounds, blocks shots, passes and plays with wonderful energy and joy. And has the best beard in professional sports.

    Felton has already done his job which is to be better than Duhon.

    Douglas and Chandler are high character, hard working young players who’ve clearly improved since last season. Trade them at our peril.

    The hidden potential of Mosgov and Randolph seems very well hidden. But what the heck; you can’t coach height and back in the day, we gave up on Camby way too soon.

    Why would newspapers print, “Curry is ready to return to action”. It’s like saying “Paris Hilton continues to be a show off”.

  6. Z-man

    @8 bob,
    I agree on most of what you said. Mozgov is pretty much what I had expected, and is clearly focusing on avoiding fouls, which he clearly is better at already. He next needs to focus on footwork, i.e. avoiding the obvious travel. Randolph has been a disappointment to me, really has zero shot or b-ball IQ. I also don’t think Camby was given up on because he didn’t reach his potential, rather that he was hurt a lot. I believe he had a serious hip injury when they traded him. He actually played great while he was here and healthy.

  7. Z-man

    I thought Amar’e had an impact that went far beyond his stats. He kept a bunch of balls alive on the offensive end. He had the kind of game that KG often has with the Celts, played really smart and within himself. People shouldn’t be surprised by the shotblocking, his career stats are good in this area and he has had years when he avgd 2 bpg. The criticisms of his D are more about defending the PnR and stuff like that.

    I would say the Gallo bashing should come to an end. And say what you want about Felton and Chandler,but they play their asses off.

    What about those two jumpers by Turiaf? Were those fluke or can he actually hit an open 15 footer?

  8. danvt

    So happy!

    “Randolph has been a disappointment to me, really has zero shot or b-ball IQ.”

    Z-Man,
    I don’t think it’s right to put him in this category yet. I agree that his run against the Wiz was Keystone Cops-like but I found it encouraging how much he had his hands on the ball. He had a nice block, he made one shot, and he can dribble. Good skills, questionable decisions, yep, but only his first game back. Also, it seems that D’Antoni is seriously getting in his players faces so far this season when they mess up. I think Randolph may yet be coachable.

    It used to be depressing playing the Wizards because we would always be touting our young talent only to see guys like Javale McGee dominate them. We now have obvious advantages in athleticism and talent over teams like this. I think we’ll beat Philly and if we do we’re 4-2!

  9. danvt

    From ESPN’s game recap:
    “Felton, who would need a healthy head start to beat Wall in a race, used an assortment of jumpers and floaters to score six straight later in the period, pushing the lead to 13, and the Knicks were up 58-49 at halftime.”

    Why would someone write something like this? Felton’s has things he needs to improve upon but his foot speed is fine.

  10. Ted Nelson

    Pretty impressed with the team. They have mostly made the adjustments they needed to, granted it was the Wizards. 11 FGA in 33 min from Amare and 19 from he and WC combined is music to my ears…

    Kind of the quintessential Anthony Randolph game… jacks up a bunch of bad shots to go 1-7, but also had 7 reb in 10 minutes. 3 OReb, a steal, 2 blocks, drew 2 offensive fouls and tried to draw another, but also 3 TOs (at least 2 on offensive fouls) and 3 fouls. The thing that I really don’t understand about Mike D’Antoni is why didn’t Anthony Randolph know before he went into the game that it’s not ok to shoot every time he touches the ball? He’s a bad scorer and a good passer… wouldn’t you let him know the game plan is not to shoot at will? I also don’t really understand the all-subs line-up. Put Anthony Randolph on the floor as a 4th or 5th option, not a 2nd or 3rd option. Let him play to his strengths.
    Anyway, you definitely see the potential. Has to play to his strengths more. I think he got a little unlucky on missing both his FTAs and all 6 of those shots (also in getting 7 reb in 10 min of course…). So, say he manages to take 3 less shots, goes 2-4 for 5 or 6 pts, 3-4 reb in 10 minutes, cuts out one offensive foul, picks up an assist or two instead of all the FGAs… that’s a pretty good contribution. Right now it’s one step forward, one step back… got to get it at least to one step forward, half a step back.

    I did pick up TD in my fantasy draft, but not sure I remember my info to login…

    Z-man: The criticisms of his D are more about defending the PnR and stuff like that.

    I think he’s improved pretty considerable over the last couple of years. I think the criticism had a lot to do with effort. He might have blocked some shots, but he wasn’t stepping in to take the charge. He wasn’t rotating as quickly. He was more passive.

  11. d-mar

    Isola made a pretty good comparison in the News today – TD as Gary Payton. I know he has a long way to go to reach that level, but their styles are similar.

    Question: would you trade Turiaf straight up for Lee today? I know that sounds like a ridiculous question, but based on the composition of our roster, who do we need more? I am not a Lee basher, I loved the guy when he was here, but let’s be honest, he never blocked a shot, drew a charge, got a steal. I actually think Turiaf is more important to our team than Lee would be.

    OK, Lee-men, fire away!

  12. Ted Nelson

    danvt: Felton’s has things he needs to improve upon but his foot speed is fine.  

    Yeah, that is a pretty ignorant statement…
    In reality, Felton’s sprint time at the combine was significantly faster than Wall’s (3.06 v. 3.14). That’s not conclusive (it was 5 years ago for Felton and maybe Wall wasn’t trying or something…), but there’s no evidence Wall is faster. Wall’s time was actually equivalent to Duhon’s, btw. I’m sure whoever wrote that saw Felton’s physique and assumed he’s a slow, fat guy who hangs out at frat parties with Duhon…

    Not responding to your comment here, danvt, but… As much as I’ve been impressed by Felton recently, do remember that Duhon was amazing his first 1/2 or 3/4 season with the Knicks… Not at all saying that *will* happen to Felton. Just saying let’s not count our eggs before they hatch.

  13. rama

    Turiaf for Lee – I’d still take Lee, I think. The defense that Turiaf brings is a little easier to find – though it’s beautiful to see on our team again after so many years. But good point: it’s a much tougher call than any of us might have guessed three months ago.

    That said, the trade has worked pretty well for both teams: Warriors are 4-1. Lee is rebounding like usual and complements Biedrens well. And I guess that’s the real question – not Lee v. Turiaf, but Lee v. STAT, who is playing Lee’s natural position. I’d take STAT there, but again, it’s closer than you might guess.

    A few more games like last night, though, and the margin widens; I loved STAT’s D, the blocks, charges taken, not forcing it too much. Looked very good.

    And if anyone wants yet another reminder of the pain of picking 8th two years ago v. 7th, go check out the Warrior highlights – Curry had an amazing behind-the-back lefthanded assist to Lee. WOW.

  14. Ted Nelson

    d-mar: Question: would you trade Turiaf straight up for Lee today?

    d-mar: OK, Lee-men, fire away! 

    Haha… I think its an interesting question. First I would say that there is no way on earth Ronny Turiaf continues to play this well. His TS% is .684. He’s not turning it over nearly as much as he has on his career. His stls are up like 250% from career average. Even if he has a career season, it ain’t gonna be this good. So that’s something to consider long-term. He’s also injury prone, so you have to factor that into your projections.
    Lee would give the Knicks a different look. Playing the 4 and sliding Amare to the 5. I was/am not a fan of the idea of them playing together. However, if you get Lee’s offense for Turiaf’s D it may be close to even. Especially when you consider that Lee is going to get a lot more “situational” rebounds (whatever situational means… I think it refers to one’s abs…). Getting contested rebounds to end an opponent’s possession is part of defense, and Turiaf is an awful rebounder. Eddy Curry awful. Granted, he clearly plays his role on D and maybe you can argue his teammates pick up the rebounding slack (but, still a Dwight Howard and most other defensive bigs are enforcers and still manage to get plenty of rebounds).

  15. Ted Nelson

    rama: And if anyone wants yet another reminder of the pain of picking 8th two years ago v. 7th

    Yeah, but that’s like saying every time you watch the Lakers you feel the pain of taking John Wallace, Walter McCarty, and Dontae Jones in ’96 instead of trading up for Kobe or at least taking Z and of taking Frye over Bynum and Weis over Artest and trading Ariza and Balkman over Rondo… water under the bridge.

    (Maybe a little too obvious, but going into arguably the best draft ever with 3 first rounders and winding up with those 3 is definitely an unsung moment in Knicks history… the guys they could have had if they’d traded up, the guys who could have slipped a couple more spots, passing on Z twice… could have changed the last 15 years of Knicks history. Imagine if things go down differently and the Knicks come out of that draft with Kobe, JO, and Steve Nash… but, at the end of the day, why bother?)

  16. Z-man

    If there is one thing I feel extremely confident in saying going forward, it’s that Felton is clearly better than Duhon, if only because he’s faster and finishes better, although I think it is far more than that. That said, talent-wise, he is still one of the bottom-10 starting PGs and I would probably take a couple of back-up PG’s over him. He does seem tough-minded and very willing to mix it up physically, and hopefully is durable. He did seem to wince at some point in the first half and I thought he tweaked something, but showed no ill effects afterwards. Toney always seems to be hobbling, I guess that’s just the way he walks. The Glove is a good comparison. Would folks out there still trade him straight up for Lawson? Blair?

    Re: Turiaf, he’s not the player that Lee is but is a much better center and we need him more than Lee. I’m not sold on Turiaf yet except as a shot-blocker, and neither Washington nor Chicago had much of anything at the center spot. He is also not much of a rebounder. The main thing is that as a throw-in to a Lee S&T, he is a very capable rotation player and a godsend to a team starved of a defensive presence in the paint.

    Re: Amar’e, I remember seeing a video article that pointed out Amar’e's specific deficiencies on the PnR and in the post, looked to be more aout decision-making and positioning than effort. He may have improved in terms of hustle, taking charges, etc. but again, I’m not sold yet on his all-around D. Not that it matters because his overall defensive game is definitely an improvement over Lee, and he and Turiaf/Mozgov, not to mention Chandler and Randolph (Gallo too?) are a formidable shot-blocking force, enabling Felton and Douglas to take risks in the passing lanes. I do love the way they are keeping balls alive on th offensive end by tipping out to the perimeter.

    BTW, loved the run-outs by Mozgov, he really gets down the court. If he can just get his footwork straightened out in the halfcourt…

  17. Z-man

    I would say that overall, Donnie has done a superb job of drafting. The Hill pick is middling certainly but not a bust. Gallo, Douglas, Fields are solid rotation players with all-star potential. Rautins may be a year or two away but made the roster. Mozgov, not a draft pick but still a find that I’m sure other team are drooling over. Another potential shot-blocker getting seasoning in Europe (Jerome Jordan.)Throw in Chandler and the fruits of the Lee trade (even Nate yielded Walker and a 2nd rounder, no?) and you can’t really complain too much about the drafting of the last 5-6 years. Yeah, Curry is good but replace Douglas with him and are we really that much better, especially if TD keeps up the 3pt shooting? Douglas is an absolute menace on defense, and defense never has an off-night. Curry has to be a defensive liability, no?

    BTW, I know there are a lot of Monta haters out there, but he is really lighting it up so far.

  18. TDM

    This team could easily be 5-0. They came down to the wire against two powerhouse teams. The knicks are playing great team ball.

    Also, as an aside, It looks like the David Lee trade was good for both teams. GS are 4-1.

  19. Ted Nelson

    Z-man: The Glove is a good comparison.

    I have been and continue to be as big a fan of TD as anyone, but comparing him to Gary Payton… (I know this was Isola’s idea, not yours Z-Man) The only similarity is that they’re good defenders. And as much as I like TD comparing him to a DPOY at PG is really tough. You’re basically saying that TD is one of the best defensive PGs of all-time. Maybe it will happen / is happening, but he has to earn that distinction. Offensively, Payton was a traditional PG and a poor shooter. He shot .317 from 3 and had a career TS% of .527. Today maybe he would score more easily on drives with the new rules, but I don’t see how it would help his outside shot. Douglas, on the other hand, is a combo-guard who is an efficient scorer and shooter. On his young career Douglas sports a 3P% of .387, a TS% of .578, but only an ast% of 16.3.

    Z-man: Would folks out there still trade him straight up for Lawson? Blair?

    Those two are off to bad starts, but that doesn’t mean they won’t turn it around. I mean RJ is the Spurs best player through 5 games, does that mean I was right that the Knicks should have signed him this offseason? Not necessarily. It’s 5 games.
    To actually answer the question: Lawson wasn’t an option when Douglas was drafted. Blair… I would hesitate to trade TD for him, but I would consider it.

  20. danvt

    I think Fields does a good getting us extra possessions as well. Scrappy play from NYK happens! I liked how, when the last couple of teams made their runs at us we responded by taking more time with our possessions, getting good ball movement, and trying to get shots closer to the basket. I’m seeing coach Mike’s coaching style coming out finally and it has less to do with 3 point shooting and less to do with 7 seconds or less than I thought. It really is all about ball movement and not individual creativity.

    Wilson Chandler is winning me over with every game. Much better shot selection last night. Lots of moves to the rim. He took an open three pointer when the Wiz went to the zone and knocked it down. Good shot.

  21. Ted Nelson

    Z-man: I would say that overall, Donnie has done a superb job of drafting.

    This is not surprising considering that he did a superb job of drafting in Indiana for 2 decades. Everyone was so down on the guy, but all you had to do was look at his track record. Thinking Donnie Walsh forgot how to draft is like thinking Gallo forgot how to shoot. I never understood why the consensus was that 5 years made D’Antoni a great coach, but 2 decades didn’t make Walsh a great President.

    Z-man: BTW, I know there are a lot of Monta haters out there, but he is really lighting it up so far.

    Perhaps because he decided to ditch the self-imposed rule where he refused to pass the ball to his PG last season because he was having a hissy fit he wasn’t the starting PG and they dared to draft a back-court mate they thought would complement him… No one doubts Monta’s talent, only whether you’d want him on your team. He might self-implode at any moment and when his shots aren’t falling he’s not going to stop taking dozens of them.

  22. ess-dog

    It’s too bad Turiaf can’t just teach his game to Randolph. It is puzzling that Randolph has such a long leash when he could clearly occupy himself with the aspects of the game that he’s so good at: rebounding, defense, passing. These are all things the Knicks really need. We don’t need any more three point shooters and iso guys. The kid’s only 21. He should have things he can do in a game, and things he can do in practice.

    “That said, talent-wise, he is still one of the bottom-10 starting PGs and I would probably take a couple of back-up PG’s over him.”

    Really? back-ups? So far Ray has a 20 PER, .600 TS and .200 WS48. Will it last? Doubtful but jeez, what’s a guy gotta do? I mean, at least he looks like last year’s Ray and not 2008 Ray. And I’m also a believer that you don’t need an elite pg to win at this level. Bigs and guys that get to the line are more important.

    I’m starting to really like our line up. If Fields can continue his play and Gallo and Mosgov can slowly improve as the year goes on, we’ll have a very good, deep team.

  23. Ted Nelson

    Ted Nelson: Z-man: I would say that overall, Donnie has done a superb job of drafting.

    This is not surprising considering that he did a superb job of drafting in Indiana for 2 decades.

    Don’t get me wrong, good point about the drafting… I just never understood why there were any doubts in the first place. Everyone is going to have a Jordan Hill thrown in once in a while.

  24. Z-man

    Ted, totally agree on the first point, more of a general comparison than anything else. Not sure whether TD will develop PG skills, so far it is the weakest part of his game. I do think TD can be a special defender, maybe not Payton but NBA all-defense good.

    Re: Lawson, we theoretically could have had Lawson and Blair instead of Hill and TD. We also could have had Blair and TD, or Lawson and TD. If we took Lawson instead of Hill (lots of people wanted that) we could essentially have Lawson instead of Douglas, and someone else (Blair, or someone else other than Hill who surely would have been picked by then.) I think Lawson is better than Felton and a starting-caliber PG, but not sure I would trade TD for him right now.

  25. Z-man

    pS re Blair, I would consider it but would probably not pull the trigger. Blair is a really good rebounder, which is something we need, but he is a PF and we are pretty set there right now. TD is a combo guard and we are currently thin at both guard spots. Blair is probably not a great up-tempo player either, and TD is, so I might also keep TD on that basis. But right now, they are both solid rotation players with skills and weaknesses. Lawson might be the most complete player, but is smallish and not the defender that Douglas is, although a much better playmaker.

  26. Ted Nelson

    ess-dog: It’s too bad Turiaf can’t just teach his game to Randolph.

    AR definitely does have to play within himself, I agree. “Himself” is not a traditional C, though. Turiaf has like 50 lbs on AR and a lot less run-jump athleticism. AR should learn from him, but probably not emulate his exact game. I see what you’re saying about focusing on his strengths, but he can’t ignore that his strengths are pretty diverse. Sometimes he does have to take the wide open 20 footer and sometime he does have to take his man off the dribble, but like Amare the first few games he needs to pick his spots and do it a lot less overall. This season he’s never going to be able to body up your average 5 the way Turiaf can (maybe down the line as be adds bulk), for example, so he also has to be aware of his weaknesses.

    ess-dog: We don’t need any more three point shooters and iso guys.

    I agree. D’Antoni can’t put him on the floor as a 1st/2nd/3rd option in what is basically Amare’s position in the offense. He needs to play him more when there are 3 or 4 other scorers on the court. (This is where I really figure if teams used more statistical analysis they’d realize how to use guys more… that AR is an inefficient scorer despite scoring 18 pts/36 last season.) When he’s playing with Turiaf, it’s hard to play Turiaf’s role (again, I don’t think that’s ideal, but I think I see what you mean). Through pre-season and his first decent run in a real game, how much time has AR spent on the court with Amare OR Gallo?

    ess-dog: Really? back-ups? So far Ray has a 20 PER, .600 TS and .200 WS48. Will it last? Doubtful but jeez, what’s a guy gotta do

    Does everyone really forget the start of the 08-09 season when Duhon was our new “All-Star” PG with a TS% and ast% through the roof? It’s a long season. As you say, maybe Felton keeps this play up but it’s doubtful. There are some good back-ups out there. Just because you are a bench player doesn’t mean you are worse than the 5 starters. Ask Timo and 1/2 the Knicks bench about that one. I think Felton will be a good deal better than Duhon, I just can’t believe how quickly people forget and how selective their memories are.

    ess-dog: Gallo and Mosgov can slowly improve as the year goes on

    I agree with your point about liking the roster, but can we please not lump Gallo in with Timo at this point?

  27. Ben R

    The biggest thing I like about TD is he is pefect in the role he is playing. A starting caliber PG, like Lawson, would probably be better but TD is a prototypical combo guard off the bench. He does not really need to develop into a “pure” point guard, as a 30 mpg bench player he is perfect.

    Lawson gives you a long term starter but will he ever be much better than an average starting point guard? Maybe, maybe not, but Douglas is already an exceptional defensive combo guard who gives a huge spark off the bench, think Vinnie Johnson, Bobby Jackson. He has a role and he fits it perfectly and could have that role for the next ten years. Plus he is a really hard worker and maybe will be more than what he is but he is already very good. Not alot of people can do what Toney Douglas do. I would think long and hard before trading Douglas for almost anyone.

    On a side note I don’t think Monta’s season is that much of an abberation. If you look at his numbers in the season before his Moped accident they are very similar to the numbers he is putting up this year. They are also similar to the numbers he put up over the last month of 08-09 after he was fully recovered from that injury. Maybe last years numbers were the abberation and Monta Ellis is in fact an efficient player. It’s too early to tell but I would not be shocked if Monta is able to keep it up.

  28. Ted Nelson

    Z-Man,

    I also probably don’t trade TD for either right now. I like TD a whole lot and I like the general roster composition.

    I agree with calling out people (a little) who were so convinced that the sky was falling because the Knicks got Hill and Douglas instead of Lawson and Blair (and people who thought the sky was falling with Fields). (I’m not totally excluded in that I wasn’t particularly high on those moves, but I also remember putting my faith into Donnie for the most part…) I don’t know that the Knicks would be any worse off if they had gone with Lawson and Blair, though, and maybe they’re even better off in some ways (trade one less pick to Houston by upgrading to Blair over Hill… maybe take Ebanks over Rautins with Lawson on-board… maybe do something else with the Felton $). Tough to say, all those things could potentially work out better or worse. Certainly I am pleased with the way things turned out. We have a very exciting young team!

  29. Z-man

    ess-dog,
    I agree that Felton is doing very well, and that he is a very large improvement over Duhon. It certainly helps that he is playing on a better team, but the difference in speed and finishing ability is already clear. I don’t buy into the concern that it is early and Duhon started off well too. IMO, that was a very specific case of clicking early with Lee on the pick and roll, but once the league figured it out, forcing Duhon to adjust, which he couldn’t because he didn’t have the talent and there was little else to go to elsewhere on the team. I don’t know whether the good shooting will continue, but if it does, that’s a bonus. If he settles at last year’s numbers rather than his first four years, I’d be OK with that.

    Even with Felton’s impressive start, there are probably 20 no-brainer picks at PG over Felton, IMO. That doesn’t mean that I am not happy with Felton. He is exceeding expectations and playing very solid ball on a reasonable contract, which is fine by me for now (again, kudos to Donnie considering what was available…I would much rather have him than Ridnour, for example.). On the other hand, don’t forget that he was clearly outplayed by Rondo (no big deal) and Miller (much bigger deal) in our two losses, and that he was getting smoked by Rose in the third Q but then Thibodeau mysteriously benches him for the whole 4th quarter. Not that Felton played poorly, but he is clearly a middling PG at best who is playing well and within himself. Whether he is a stopgap or a keeper remains to be seen, although I would lean towards stopgap even with his impressive stat line.

    I should also mention that Felton got absolutely abused by Jameer Nelson in the playoffs last year, and I’m not that high on Nelson either.

  30. Ted Nelson

    Ben R: A starting caliber PG, like Lawson, would probably be better

    I agree with most of your analysis, but I don’t know about the rigid “starter” / “back-up” designations you use. If TD starts the game, Fields comes off the bench, and they both play the same minutes in the same line-ups… does that really change much? Manu was a “back-up” but also maybe the 2nd best SG in the NBA for several years.

    I don’t know that the PG role is necessarily more valuable than the combo-guard role… (Honestly, I don’t know. Have made zero attempt to analyze or quantify it.) If TD is x standard deviations above average at combo-guard and PG Y is x standard deviations above average at PG and both play 30 mpg… is one more valuable? Implicit in that analysis would be whether PGs are rarer than combo-guards.

    Ben R: On a side note I don’t think Monta’s season is that much of an abberation. If you look at his numbers in the season before his Moped accident they are very similar to the numbers he is putting up this year.

    A. They are his 07-08 numbers on steroids. He’s scoring 8 more pts/36 at a slightly higher efficiency. His assists are way up. His steals are way up. Per and WS/48, way up. I haven’t done the math, but his numbers are up between 50 and 100% pretty much across the board even from 07-08. Maybe he has improved (he’s only 25), but he’s on pace to destroy his previous career season. Likely he comes down to earth at least a little bit.

    B. 07-08 was the only season he’s ever been an above average NBA contributor. Maybe that’s the injury, maybe not.

    C. Besides the injury, he is unstable. He literally told his team that they would not draft Steph Curry. When they defied his order, he literally did not pass the ball to Steph Curry in real, live NBA games to show his displeasure (or I assume that’s why, I don’t know). Even if he’s going along having an All-NBA season, you never know at what moment he might decide David Lee and Andris Biedrins are holding secret Klan meetings and stop passing them the ball. You never know what offseason move you make might set him off.
    When you are the SG and you refuse to pass the ball to the PG who you’re playing a lot of your minutes with (I literally remember a play where he sees the open man, goes to pass the ball, sees that it’s Curry, holds the ball and passes to a covered guy…) it is hard to say that the only reason you had a bad season was an injury.

  31. Z-man

    BTW, isn’t it great that we are having these upbeat converstions after 5 games? I really do think that the Orlando postponement was a HUGE break.

    On another note, D’Antoni is doing a great job of working 10 guys in. Don’t know whether that will keep up, not really his thing, but everybody except Rautins and Mason is getting a reasonable opportunity.

  32. ess-dog

    Ted Nelson:
    AR definitely does have to play within himself, I agree. “Himself” is not a traditional C, though.

    I agree, but Turiaf isn’t really a traditional center either. I just see Randolph as a “post player” and yes, he’s got a different skill set than Turiaf, but he needs to think the way Turiaf is thinking a.k.a. help the team.

    Ted Nelson:
    Does everyone really forget the start of the 08-09 season when Duhon was our new “All-Star” PG with a TS% and ast% through the roof?

    It’s interesting how that teams two best players – Duhon and Lee – were highly efficient offensive players with a great secondary skill set (passing, rebounding) but terrible on the defensive end. It’s a good reminder that defense is in fact half (50%) of the game. Btw that season, Duhon was still a few notches below Felton’s 09-10 season. 12.2 PER and .069 WS48 vs. Ray’s 15.2 and .118. Not saying Ray’s much above mediocre, but I have faith that he is a serious improvement based on what I’ve seen so far and his last year of play… and at a short deal and good price!

    Ted Nelson:
    I agree with your point about liking the roster, but can we please not lump Gallo in with Timo at this point?  

    Not sure what you mean here. I was just saying that as starters, both players need to improve on what we’ve seen them do. Of course Gallo has more room for improvement being younger, but Timo mostly needs to get used to the NBA style of play versus actually “coming into his own” (although he really needs to improve his footwork/shooting in the post asap, paging Mr. Ewing?)

  33. rama

    Ted #18 and Z-man #20 –

    You guys are completely missing the point (so to speak). I wasn’t complaining about Donnie’s drafting record; what I was saying is that everyone knew we wanted Curry at #8 and were going to take him, and he went one position before we picked at #7. Whatever players came after Hill, it’s pretty clear that Curry would have been absolutely perfect on this team. He is going to be an elite PG. If you had checked out the highlights like I suggested, you would have understood what I was saying – he made a beautiful pass that I don’t think anyone on the team could have conceived never mind executed. And he’s a killer 3-point shooter. Perfect for these Knicks. If we had him, we wouldn’t be trying to figure out how to get CP3 or debating whether Felton is better than Lawson or whoever.

    Though I will say, yeah, I do think Felton can keep up these numbers over the course of the season. I don’t think last year is an aberration. I don’t think teams will adjust to him the way they did to Duhon (good point, Z-man). In fact, I think he could get better if he and Amare ever get it together on the pnr. As for his D (and here I disagree with you, Z-man), he’s played 3 of the best – or at least fastest – PGs in the game so far. There are a couple more to come, but the vast majority will not be as good/fast as Rondo, Rose, Wall, and for that matter, Miller, who is better than both Rose and Wall (though not quicker).

    Ben R #30 – agree completely. TD reminds me much more of Bobby Jackson than the Glove (at least so far). And Monta is playing better than he ever has, but not but a ton. It’s just that his attitude has improved (or so the writers/fans of GS say).

  34. Ted Nelson

    Z-man: IMO, that was a very specific case of clicking early with Lee on the pick and roll

    I am not saying it’s the same exact situation. Felton’s unsustainable thing might be that he’s getting lucky on shots that are falling. Felton has a career 32.9 3P% and hit 38.5% last season, he is hitting 43.5% so far this season. Career eFG%: .450, 09-10: .494, 10-11: .571. Career TS%: .495, 09-10: .525, 10-11: .597. His assists, TOs, reb, stl, FTA… all in line with career numbers and defense is presumably in line with career. The only reason he is playing out of his mind is scoring efficiency. I don’t see those numbers as at all sustainable. Felton’s baseline is higher than Duhon’s, but my point is that just like Duhon he’s playing way above his career #s. Maybe he even gets increasing returns in this system, even still I would *expect* a regression at some point. People said the same things about Duhon, and it lasted at least 1/2 a season (and he was still well above his career numbers for the rest of that season even after regressing… it was 09-10 where he just feel apart and had a career low season, which is not something I expect from Felton… just to return closer to his career #s).

  35. rohank

    Anyone find it slightly odd (and insulting) that as the knicks are winning and looking like a great team, they continue to focus on extraneous circumstances (first isaiah and now “arenas’ comback”)? Like, what do we have to do to get the media back on the knicks bandwagon?

    Part of me is ok with it though cause maybe the knicks can continue to sneak up on people.

  36. Z-man

    I have to admit that I was duped by Duhon. I do think that Felton will regress offensively. The main point I was trying to make was that even at last year’s shooting efficiency numbers, his overall game seems clearly superior to Duhon, but not great by any stretch. If he reverts all the way back to his career numbers, then he is only a marginal improvement (but still better overall, IMO.) If he keeps it up, great, but I would still not call off the dogs on our search for a better PG. Probably the best thing is that if he keeps up the generally good play, we don’t need to feel compelled to overpay when a better one becomes available.

    In fact, if we keep up the good play, it will hopefully help us keep from overpaying for anybody, specifically Melo. I am SO glad we did not trade for him yet (even if it was Denver who is responsible) because now we have a much better idea of what we have. This is a very exciting and competitive roster that is loaded with young trade bait. We should not blow it apart to get any one guy just because we are worried that Amar’e's window is a narrow one.

  37. ess-dog

    Btw, since we’re looking at numbers, ‘Melo’s having a career year so far after 5 games: 23 PER, .585 TS (a high for him), and a .209 WS48… looking almost as good as Toney Douglas. :)

  38. danvt

    It’s too bad Turiaf can’t just teach his game to Randolph. It is puzzling that Randolph has such a long leash when he could clearly occupy himself with the aspects of the game that he’s so good at: rebounding, defense, passing. These are all things the Knicks really need. We don’t need any more three point shooters and iso guys. The kid’s only 21. He should have things he can do in a game, and things he can do in practice.”

    As I recall he missed three shots on one possession. All make-able none forced just rusty and rushing things. I don’t know that he has a particularly long leash. He didn’t play that many minutes. I hope he stays aggressive and will live with the thrill ride for a while. He’s really got some impressive skills and a nice looking stroke.

  39. d-mar

    Tomorrow’s game against Philly is a classic “trap” game – the opponent is reeling, lost at home to the Cavs, may not have Iguodala, etc. There is absolutely no way we should lose this game, and if we do, it would erase a LOT of this good feeling about the team we have right now. Not saying the Sixers don’t have talent, but this has to be a W for us.

    Then again, how’d you like to be the Nets, playing in Miami on a 2nd night of a back to back after the Heat lost?

  40. Ted Nelson

    ess-dog: Not sure what you mean here. I was just saying that as starters, both players need to improve on what we’ve seen them do. Of course Gallo has more room for improvement being younger

    It’s purely semantics, I am just saying that Gallo is doing a lot more than Timo on the season.
    That Gallo not only has a higher ceiling due to talent and age, but also has played 10000000x better than Timo so far this season. I don’t know how much more Gallo can give the Knicks on a nightly basis than he’s given them the last two games. Timo, on the other hand, could give a lot more.

    Z-man: Not that Felton played poorly, but he is clearly a middling PG at best who is playing well and within himself.

    Good way to put it, comparing him to some of the PGs he’s faced.

    rama: You guys are completely missing the point (so to speak). I wasn’t complaining about Donnie’s drafting record

    I think it’s two unrelated points. At least I wasn’t even thinking about your Curry comment in discussing the Douglas v. Lawson/Blair stuff. Just historical comments. You would have thought the world was ending reading some comments about the 09 and 10 drafts.

    rama: If we had him, we wouldn’t be trying to figure out how to get CP3 or debating whether Felton is better than Lawson or whoever.

    The point I made in response to this comment was just, my advise is let it go. The Knicks easily could have had Kobe, too, if they were a few spots higher or had traded up. JO was literally picked one spot before they had 3 of the next 4 picks… since they reached a bit on a project in Dontae Jones, pretty reasonable to think they might have gone for a project in JO. Even more frustrating than guys the Knicks did not have the picks to draft, IMO, are guys they had every opportunity to draft and simply passed on or traded away the pick years earlier.
    At the end of the day, though, those things are all in the past and the Knicks have an exciting team.

    rama: I do think Felton can keep up these numbers over the course of the season. I don’t think last year is an aberration.

    His numbers this season are way better last season, so sustaining these numbers does not follow from last season not being an aberration. The only real difference between last season and this season is scoring efficiency. He went from average for a season to incredibly amazing for 5 games…

    rama: As for his D (and here I disagree with you, Z-man), he’s played 3 of the best – or at least fastest – PGs in the game so far.

    I am not Z-Man, but I don’t think this is his point.

    rama: And Monta is playing better than he ever has, but not but a ton.

    Check his stats. He is playing a ton better than he ever has for an entire season. Not even close.

  41. Z-man

    Has anyone looked at David Lee’s efficiency numbers, esp in his last 3 games? Ugly! Well, we all knew that he owed much of his offensive game to playing with Duhon.

  42. Ben R

    I see Felton regressing a little bit but I still would not be surprised if he has a career year efficiency-wise and ends up around 55% TS%. Felton is doing two things that you could say were unsustainable in regards to scoring efficiency. The first is finishing at the rim and the second is making 3pt fgs. Even if both fall back to earth a bit he should stil be greatly improved over last year becasue his shot selection is better.

    Over his career Felton has shot almost 4 16-23 footers a game and 2.8 three pointers a game. This year he is shooting 2.2 16-23 footers and 4.6 3 pointers. He basically cut 1.8 bad shots, 16-23 footers ane the worst shot in basketball, and replaced them with good shots, three pointers are the best shot in basketball (besides a dunk or layup). He is also getting to the rim a little more often.

    So this year:
    rim to 10 feet – 5.6 shots per game
    10-23 feet – 2.4 shots per game
    3pts – 4.6 shots per game

    4 previous years:
    rim to 10 feet – 5 shots per game
    10-23 feet – 4.6 shots per game
    3pts – 2.8 shots per game

    So I think the system has helped Felton as much as his hot shooting, and he should be improved.

  43. Ted Nelson

    Z-man: The main point I was trying to make was that even at last year’s shooting efficiency numbers, his overall game seems clearly superior to Duhon, but not great by any stretch. If he reverts all the way back to his career numbers, then he is only a marginal improvement

    Agreed. The only thing I would say is that at his career scoring efficiency he needs to take less shots than he has on his career. Duhon was bad, but he was low usage. Now that the Knicks have a lot of good options, Felton needs to pass up shots if/when he comes back down to earth. Maybe I am wrong and he never comes down to earth, I just find it very unlikely.

    Z-man: We should not blow it apart to get any one guy just because we are worried that Amar’e’s window is a narrow one.  

    Yeah, I’m not even considering Amare’s “window.” I’m about maximizing our overall return on this team.

    d-mar: Not saying the Sixers don’t have talent, but this has to be a W for us.

    Agreed. If the Knicks are as good as we *hope* (meaning even better than we *think*) they have to kick teams while they are down. Generally, they have to win more often than they lose and a loss would mean they are not doing that on the young season. If they consistently waffle and play to their competition as the season goes on, they can still be as good as we *think* (.500-ish) but not as good as we *hope* (as good as possible).

  44. Ted Nelson

    Ben R: So I think the system has helped Felton as much as his hot shooting, and he should be improved.  

    Good analysis. Where do you find those numbers?

    He’s still hitting 43.5% of his 3s and I have no idea how he’s doing on the other shots but his overall FG% is way up. Maybe 55% TS% is fair. One big question, though, is whether he’s really a 35-40% 3P shooter or more of a 30-35% one. At his career mark of 33% taking those extra 3s does less good for him than closer to 40%.

  45. d-mar

    Regarding Felton vs. Duhon, this is another case where I think you have to look beyond career stats and go by what you see on the court. Felton gets up the court much quicker than Duhon, finishes at the rim much, much better than Duhon (actually, did Duhon ever finish at the rim?) and IMO, is a better defender than Duhon. Duhon piled up some nice assist numbers running the PNR with Lee, but once teams figured out how to stop it, his value dropped considerably.

  46. Thomas B.

    Lee or Turiaf.

    That is hardly a fair question as the trade can only be judged by what trading Lee put this team in position to do. The better question is: Should the Knicks have kept David Lee?

    The answer–in light of what trading him did for the team–is a resounding NO.

    What the Knicks did rather than keep Lee was bring in Stoudemire, Randolph, Turiaf, and Azuibuke. Those parts are far more valuable than keeping Lee. The acts of getting Stoudemire and the trade assets have made the team deeper, and far better defensively. For all of Lee’s talents, I don’t see a loss on the offensive side. This team is still scoring much better than it did when we had Lee and not those other assets.

    Defense is much better on the interior. Shots are actually blocked, charges taken, and the rim is no longer easier to access than WIFI at a coffee house.

    Neither Stoudemire or Turiaf is the rebounder that Lee is but Lee isnt even close the defender either of them are. Plus the overall rebounding on this team has not taken a significant hit with Lee’s departure has it? The team is in the middle of the NBA in rebounding rates.

    Sure we lost Lee’s smart passing but we replaced that with improved play from the backcourt. So really, what have we lost? Where is the team hurting for something that Lee could fix that would still have the team playing as well as it is now.

    I don’t miss him at all.

  47. Frank O.

    danvt: So happy!“Randolph has been a disappointment to me, really has zero shot or b-ball IQ.”Z-Man,
    I don’t think it’s right to put him in this category yet.I agree that his run against the Wiz was Keystone Cops-like but I found it encouraging how much he had his hands on the ball.He had a nice block, he made one shot, and he can dribble.Good skills, questionable decisions, yep, but only his first game back.Also, it seems that D’Antoni is seriously getting in his players faces so far this season when they mess up.I think Randolph may yet be coachable.It used to be depressing playing the Wizards because we would always be touting our young talent only to see guys like Javale McGee dominate them.We now have obvious advantages in athleticism and talent over teams like this.I think we’ll beat Philly and if we do we’re 4-2!  

    Dude, all due respect, AR made 1 of like 9 shots. He committed as serious of incredibly naive fouls and seemed to forget on several occasions that he actually has teammates. There was one play where from the baseline he tried to drive on five guys.
    Low basketball IQ?
    I’d say, no basketball IQ?

    I hope you are right and inclined that way, but he really has shown almost no skill whatsoever, and given the depth of the team, he should get only a couple minutes. And if he gets more, D’Antoni should make him into a Rodman like player until he learns something about B-ball.

  48. Frank O.

    danvt: From ESPN’s game recap:
    “Felton, who would need a healthy head start to beat Wall in a race, used an assortment of jumpers and floaters to score six straight later in the period, pushing the lead to 13, and the Knicks were up 58-49 at halftime.”Why would someone write something like this?Felton’s has things he needs to improve upon but his foot speed is fine.  

    Yeah, agreed. That’s ridiculous. Our guys is pretty damn quick. He could stand to lose a little weight, but Felton broke the D down quite a bit.

  49. Frank O.

    Ted Nelson:
    Yeah, that is a pretty ignorant statement…
    In reality, Felton’s sprint time at the combine was significantly faster than Wall’s (3.06 v. 3.14). That’s not conclusive (it was 5 years ago for Felton and maybe Wall wasn’t trying or something…), but there’s no evidence Wall is faster. Wall’s time was actually equivalent to Duhon’s, btw. I’m sure whoever wrote that saw Felton’s physique and assumed he’s a slow, fat guy who hangs out at frat parties with Duhon…
    Not responding to your comment here, danvt, but… As much as I’ve been impressed by Felton recently, do remember that Duhon was amazing his first 1/2 or 3/4 season with the Knicks… Not at all saying that *will* happen to Felton. Just saying let’s not count our eggs before they hatch.  

    Okay…how the hell did you know how they did at the combine, for Felton five years ago????

  50. Ted Nelson

    d-mar: Regarding Felton vs. Duhon, this is another case where I think you have to look beyond career stats and go by what you see on the court.

    The problem with this argument is that Felton is playing WAY above his career scoring efficiency. It’s not just that he fits better and does “the little things” while playing at his career numbers. If that were the case I would be inclined to agree with your argument: just a better fit. He is literally playing better. There is absolutely no argument from anyone that Felton through 5 games has not been WAY better than Duhon last season or on his career. The stats show it crystal clear, as does the eye.

    Ben R points out how he might increase his TS% on a more sustainable basis, but even still he’s had a very good 5 games.

    Duhon is a significantly better jump shooter than Felton. Otherwise, yeah, comparing someone to Duhon is not a great baseline. My point in the Duhon early success comparison is that luck will even out and teams will adjust their strategies against Felton and the Knicks’ offense as a whole as well. It may or may not be as clear, but teams are unlucky to just sit back while Felton torches them for a TS% of 60%.
    Besides the pnr, it’s really hard to ignore that Duhon got lucky and made a lot of shots in 08-09 and got unlucky and missed a lot of shots in 09-10. He was often left wide open last season and just couldn’t hit. It wasn’t just the way the defense was playing him, sometimes they just ignored him and he still stunk and/or was unlucky. His only real strength is his jump shot, so if that’s not working he’s worthless.

  51. ess-dog

    Thomas B.: Lee or Turiaf.That is hardly a fair question as the trade can only be judged by what trading Lee put this team in position to do.The better question is: Should the Knicks have kept David Lee?The answer–in light of what trading him did for the team–is a resounding NO.What the Knicks did rather than keep Lee was bring in Stoudemire, Randolph, Turiaf, and Azuibuke.Those parts are far more valuable than keeping Lee.The acts of getting Stoudemire and the trade assets have made the team deeper, and far better defensively.For all of Lee’s talents, I don’t see a loss on the offensive side.This team is still scoring much better than it did when we had Lee and not those other assets.
    Defense is much better on the interior.Shots are actually blocked, charges taken, and the rim is no longer easier to access than WIFI at a coffee house.Neither Stoudemire or Turiaf is the rebounder that Lee is but Lee isnt even close the defender either of them are.Plus the overall rebounding on this team has not taken a significant hit with Lee’s departure has it?The team is in the middle of the NBA in rebounding rates.Sure we lost Lee’s smart passing but we replaced that with improved play from the backcourt.So really, what have we lost?Where is the team hurting for something that Lee could fix that would still have the team playing as well as it is now.I don’t miss him at all.  

    To be even more accurate, we really didn’t resign Lee AND Al Harrington and/or Larry Hughes et al (or non-Knicks some might deem better players who were on the market) in favor of Stoudamire, Turiaf, AR and Azu. If you contain it to players that were on the Knicks the season before, it’s a no brainer. And it’s hard to say there was a better signing available to us than Amar’e and a better s’n't than Lee for AR, Turiaf and Azu out there. We’ll never know for sure, but I think Donnie done good.

    And in a bubble I’d trade Turiaf for Lee. But btwn AR, Stat and Turiaf, I think we mostly get what we lost in Lee plus defense.

  52. jaylamerique

    Frank O.:
    Dude, all due respect, AR made 1 of like 9 shots. He committed as serious of incredibly naive fouls and seemed to forget on several occasions that he actually has teammates. There was one play where from the baseline he tried to drive on five guys.
    Low basketball IQ?
    I’d say, no basketball IQ?I hope you are right and inclined that way, but he really has shown almost no skill whatsoever, and given the depth of the team, he should get only a couple minutes. And if he gets more, D’Antoni should make him into a Rodman like player until he learns something about B-ball.  

    this is what i have been saying. Even before coming to the knicks, AR basketball IQ has always been questioned by scouts. i don’t think he knows how to play the game.

  53. Ted Nelson

    Thomas B.: That is hardly a fair question as the trade can only be judged by what trading Lee put this team in position to do. The better question is: Should the Knicks have kept David Lee?

    It was just posed as a hypothetical. “Would you trade Turiaf for Lee straight-up?” Obviously it’s impossible both because of salaries and (I believe) you can’t reacquire a player via trade for a certain period.

    Thomas B.: Where is the team hurting for something that Lee could fix that would still have the team playing as well as it is now.

    It is also possible to go from a mediocre rebounding team to a strong one. From a good passing team to a great one. From an efficient scoring team to a ridiculously efficient one. I am not saying I do or do not want Lee back (hypothetically), just that you don’t just have to look for a glaring weakness that a move addresses. Perhaps the Lakers don’t have a glaring weakness LeBron could correct (they do: PG… but anyway) but it’s hard to say he wouldn’t make them a better team if they replaced Artest with him.

    Frank O.: he really has shown almost no skill whatsoever

    Are you watching the same games I am? His passing *skill* is obvious, his rebounding *skill* is obvious, his athleticism *skill* is obvious, his versatility *skill* is obvious, his handle for a bigman *skill* is obvious, that he has some jump shot is obvious (as is that he needs to use is far less).

    In your analysis of his game you ignore in 10 minutes: 7 boards, 2 blocks, 1 steal, 1 long J, at least 3 fouls drawn (1 shooting foul and 1 charge… tried to take another charge), 1 long J made, 2 FTAs and a couple of chip shots that he won’t miss every time, and that he’s 21 years old. A lot of those plays required b-ball IQ and/or instincts. I think you’re ignoring 1/2 the equation. For every mistake, there’s also a positive. Some of his positives are things few others players in the world can do. He makes those FTs and one more shot and it’s a solid effort overall rather than a horrible one.

    Frank O.: Okay…how the hell did you know how they did at the combine, for Felton five years ago????

    http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements

  54. Frank O.

    Honesty, TD or some other guard?
    Turiaf or Lee?

    I simply wouldn’t want to change this team dynamic. They clearly get along well. They are playing very well together five games into the season after having just been formed.
    The Knicks are designed to come in waves. Their second team is different, but as effective, if not more effective in certain aspects of the game.
    They can run, and run and run because of their depth. If they continue this way, they will preserve STAT’s career. Notice he isn’t running 40 minutes for the Knicks.
    Felton and TD are running the team as they should. There is no overemphasis on any one player.
    There are no black holes on this team. STAT is a fantastically balanced player. He plays all aspects of the game, blocks shots, rebounds and most impressively takes charges.
    Mosgov showed flashes of how good he can be early in that game, running, jamming athletically, stealing. His foot work and tendency to drop his shoulder are coachable tendencies D’Antoni can work out.
    Turiaf is a perfect complement to the Knicks PFs and SFs. He doesn’t need to shoot. He plays strong D, guards the rim and last night he put a hard foul or two on Wall.
    He’s also smart. He’s constantly talking, sees the court better than most, as D’Antoni said last night, and he’s liked by all the guys, which I think is obvious if you watch people joke around. There is always someone smiling around him.
    Fields is another guy who knows how to play within the team.

    I really am enjoying this team. I loved watching OKC last year because they were young, so athletic, played together and the ball flowed so well. This team makes me feel the same.

    I thought it was funny last night when D’Antoni said last year we weren’t that athletic and we always had the shortest slowest guys. …

    Not this year.

  55. Ted Nelson

    Frank O.: I simply wouldn’t want to change this team dynamic. They clearly get along well.

    So you wouldn’t make a clear upgrade in talent if one were available? No one is even talking about trading these guys. Just talking about hypotheticals… *If* the Knicks had done this or did this, what would happen?

    Frank O.: they will preserve STAT’s career. Notice he isn’t running 40 minutes for the Knicks.

    He’s actually playing slightly above his career average MPG and last season’s average and he’s never come close to 40 MPG for a season… Somehow I don’t think it’s going to make a big difference, though.

    Frank O.: I really am enjoying this team.

    No one said otherwise.

  56. tastycakes

    Uh Droidz,

    You’re not “Bob Dole’s Left Hand” are you?

    Somebody in my fantasy league dropped Ramon Sesh for Toney, which is probably just a funny coincidence. I mean, Sessions for Toney is a transaction that is happening around the world, I’m guessing.

  57. Frank O.

    Ted Nelson:
    So you wouldn’t make a clear upgrade in talent if one were available? No one is even talking about trading these guys. Just talking about hypotheticals… *If* the Knicks had done this or did this, what would happen?
    He’s actually playing slightly above his career average MPG and last season’s average and he’s never come close to 40 MPG for a season… Somehow I don’t think it’s going to make a big difference, though.
    No one said otherwise.  

    There was talk about Amare having to pull big minutes (40+) because the Knicks would need him to drive the team. That hasn’t been the case. I’m simply pleased they don’t need him to.

    As for my comment about enjoy the team, it wasn’t posed in contradiction to anyone. Just rhetorical. I really am enjoying this team.

    As for upgrades, I’m in no rush to, no.
    Sometimes a stew needs to stew for a time before you really know how it tastes. It is only then you should start fussing with added flavors. If you overspice early you lack the perspective of flavors that have merged during the stewing process.
    I feel the same about the team. They’re playing pretty well together right now, and yet it’s only five games in. I’m very curious to see if this team has a special dynamic after 25 games.
    I think by mid-year we should have a good sense of what kind of stew we have, and what might be necessary to make it a Tour de Force.

  58. Ben R

    Felton and three point shooting is an interesting thing. In college he was an excellent three point shooter. Hitting 44% his final year and 37.5% over his three years. In fact in college he was a much better three point shooter than Duhon (32.1% career), Walker (28.5% career), and Fields (34.2% career) and was about equal to Douglas (37.6% career), Rautins (37.4% career) and Azubuike (37.3% career).

    Then Felton comes into the NBA and looks like a good three point shooter hitting 35.8% his rookie year on 271 attempts then has a slight slump his 2nd year and hits 33% on 312 atempts. Then, all of a sudden, for no appearent reason, the wheels fall off, he shoots 28% and 28.5% the next two years before regaining his form last year and hitting a fantastic 38.5%.

    I do not know which one is the real Felton, I do not know what caused his horrendous shooting in 08 and 09, but so far his shot has looked good in practice (from what we’ve seen and heard) in preseason and so far this season. He seems to be a good three point shooter when he gets open looks and he does not seem to force bad shots from 3. Maybe there was just bad spacing and lots of late in the shot clock threes in 08 and 09, maybe his confidence got shot, maybe he was hurt and didn’t talk about, who knows, but so far this year he looks like the real deal; good form, good release, good free throw shooting.

    Ted – I got the shot location stats from hoopdata.

  59. Frank O.

    Ted Nelson:
    It was just posed as a hypothetical. “Would you trade Turiaf for Lee straight-up?” Obviously it’s impossible both because of salaries and (I believe) you can’t reacquire a player via trade for a certain period.
    It is also possible to go from a mediocre rebounding team to a strong one. From a good passing team to a great one. From an efficient scoring team to a ridiculously efficient one. I am not saying I do or do not want Lee back (hypothetically), just that you don’t just have to look for a glaring weakness that a move addresses. Perhaps the Lakers don’t have a glaring weakness LeBron could correct (they do: PG… but anyway) but it’s hard to say he wouldn’t make them a better team if they replaced Artest with him.
    Are you watching the same games I am? His passing *skill* is obvious, his rebounding *skill* is obvious, his athleticism *skill* is obvious, his versatility *skill* is obvious, his handle for a bigman *skill* is obvious, that he has some jump shot is obvious (as is that he needs to use is far less).
    In your analysis of his game you ignore in 10 minutes: 7 boards, 2 blocks, 1 steal, 1 long J, at least 3 fouls drawn (1 shooting foul and 1 charge… tried to take another charge), 1 long J made, 2 FTAs and a couple of chip shots that he won’t miss every time, and that he’s 21 years old. A lot of those plays required b-ball IQ and/or instincts. I think you’re ignoring 1/2 the equation. For every mistake, there’s also a positive. Some of his positives are things few others players in the world can do. He makes those FTs and one more shot and it’s a solid effort overall rather than a horrible one.http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements  

    Ted, feeling argumentative today? :)
    But seriously, man. You watched the game as I did.
    Remember, within 10 minutes, he missed 6 shots, made one (that’s seven shots in 10 minutes), had 3 turnovers, and committed 3 fouls. A lot of lost possessions from one guy in 10 minuets. Three of his seven rebounds came on his own poorly chosen or taken shots. I liked his blocks and his steal. But generally speaking, he was a disaster out there. He pretty much killed the offense in those 10 minutes.

    But you’ll note that I said if he gets minutes, D’Antoni should make it clear his role is like a Rodman: Play sound defense, rebound and move the ball, which are things I think he can contribute with.
    But don’t shoot, unless you’re two feet from the basket and have an open dunk. You yourself said several times last night that someone should tell him he can’t shoot.

    I think there is talent there, but his basketball IQ, IMHO, is terrible right now. The kid is very young, had a very short college career…and was born in Worzbach, Germany, a Mecca for basketball. :)
    He needs some time. I hate to say it, but there is a part of me that would like to see him get a bunch of minutes in the D league where he can sharpen up his shooting and his IQ. Of course he makes too much for that. He’s not going to get more than 5-10 minutes a game on this team, unless there are injuries. He would benefit from some run time in the D league.
    If that is harsh, so be it.
    Are you suggesting taking minutes from Walker to get Randolph time?
    I wouldn’t give away Mosgov’s minutes for him. You going to give Turiaf fewer minutes?

    I’m not feeling it. Just my opinion.

  60. rama

    rama: If we had him, we wouldn’t be trying to figure out how to get CP3 or debating whether Felton is better than Lawson or whoever.

    The point I made in response to this comment was just, my advise is let it go. The Knicks easily could have had Kobe, too, if they were a few spots higher or had traded up. JO was literally picked one spot before they had 3 of the next 4 picks… since they reached a bit on a project in Dontae Jones, pretty reasonable to think they might have gone for a project in JO. Even more frustrating than guys the Knicks did not have the picks to draft, IMO, are guys they had every opportunity to draft and simply passed on or traded away the pick years earlier.
    At the end of the day, though, those things are all in the past and the Knicks have an exciting team.

    Ted – again, I was simply noting how great Curry is and how amazing a difference one draft number can make. I have let it go! If you would GO LOOK AT THE HIGHLIGHT AS I SUGGESTED you too would probably say, damn, that kid has amazing court vision and skills and would also applaud his talent and agree, too bad we didn’t have a #7 pick instead of #8. Sometimes the ping-pong balls bounce your way, sometimes not. That’s all.

    And yes, it’s much more frustrating to see the Knicks pass on better players or trade the pick away and so forth. Absolutely. I agree. Just go look at the play Curry made and agree, yep, would have been nice if we were one pick higher.

    But we weren’t, and so it goes. I got it. I’m happy with this team, which is why I agree: the Knicks as currently constituted are exciting.

  61. rama

    Frank O, I agree. The kid is lost out there on offense. That said, I am not sure the D-league would be good for him – wouldn’t he just be more of a chucker? Better to play in practice against the A team and see what he is supposed to be doing. Game time is good, but disciplined practice around STAT and Turiaf and the like seems like it would be better for him.

    And by the way, Ted, yeah, you’re right that Monta’s numbers are significantly better. I should have just focused on the main point, which wasn’t “his numbers are up, but not that much,” but “word out of GS is that he came to camp a new man this year, with a much more mature attitude.” And I do think that attitude is for real and isn’t going away anytime soon, especially because they’re winning.

  62. Ted Nelson

    Ben,

    Thanks for the analysis.

    I was ignorant to the shot selection info you provided it, this dip in 3P% is something I had seen and maybe under-weighted. I just sort of assumed if his career total is that low he’s not going to sustain 38% and the rookie year was the fluke.

    I may be guilty in this case of what I’ve accused others of in regards to Walsh’s drafts. (Basically, thinking you know more than the GM. Which has become easy as a Knicks fan recently ;) But even Yankee and NY Giants fan do this a lot when their org’s are obviously well run.) Being a UNC alum and NBA team President, Walsh has probably seen a lot more of Felton than I have, knows a lot more about basketball than I do, and has people working for him who you can say both of those things about. He has actually spoken to Felton and others who know Felton personally and professionally. He may have even known exactly what mechanical defect caused the slump and how Felton fixed it. He may have known the shot selection points you made.

    I had already made up my mind about Felton last offseason. I remember reading he was asking for some ridiculous contract like 5 year 8-10 mill per and Charlotte was considering it. All I thought was: suckers. Similar to what I think about the Grizz and Conley. When the Knicks were that team… I was pissed. I still doubt he’s all that efficient on the season, but of course I hope he is.

  63. rama

    Changing the subject…

    In the intro Mike calls TD’s numbers “Clyde-esque.” (Tough to say!) Which makes me wonder: anyone here see enough games in the early 70s to be really familiar with Clyde’s game? I know he’s HoF, has style to burn (literally?), and is garrulous and perilous behind the mic. And of course I can go look at numbers, but as some of us would agree, they don’t tell us the full story…so anyone here care to shed some light?

  64. danvt

    Frank O,
    I just think it’s too early to limit AR’s game. D’Antoni will tune him up when he get’s out of line. Meanwhile, he’s played under 20 minutes this season. I agree he has taken a psycho amount of shots considering he just got back in but I like a confident kid. And I think a comparison to Rodman is not apt. Camby, either, who only late in his career learned to take the set shot the defense gave him. This guy has a complete package. Maybe, I’ll agree later this season.

  65. Ted Nelson

    Frank O.: But generally speaking, he was a disaster out there.

    I don’t think he played well, I just think three or so things go a little differently and we’re all a lot more encouraged. I thought there was a lot to be discouraged by, but also a lot to be encouraged by.

    I don’t think that it’s sustainable that a guy who shoots 75% from the FT line on his career will miss all his attempts: he should average 1.5 of them out of 2. I also don’t think he’s go 1-7 consistently.

    I agree in principal, but the problem I see with the Rodman comparison is that he’s a more skilled offensive player, IMO, not nearly the rebounder, and probably not the defender. I think Randolph has a much better ball-handler, at least slightly better jump shooter, better at drawing fouls, better passer, less TO prone than Rodman (his TOV% was through the roof)… just basically a much better offensive basketball player without the absurd rebounding and defensive ability of Rodman.

    I would roundly criticize AR for playing out of control (but several others already did, so I was trying to color in the entire picture): trying to be a Amare/WC in the first 4 games hybrid almost (though I have a gut speculation D’Antoni may be partially behind it). Similar criticism to that I lobbed at Amare, WC, and D’Antoni. I did not doom those guys based on their performances, though. There was positive stuff and I knew they could correct their errors. Same with Randolph. He doesn’t have to have a terribly high bball IQ to stop taking so many shots period, long jumpers, dribbles, play under control, and help the offense in ways Rodman never could while also helping the Knicks defense considerably.

    Basically, I agree he should play within himself. As Z-Man and I discussed earlier, though, I think he there are a lot of ways he can help the offense while playing within himself. To me that starts with getting him out there when more good scorers are out there. Timo has been pretty bad overall and would have been a lot worse if asked to do what AR was presumably asked to do by going out there are carrying a scoring load with a 2nd unit. I think D’Antoni is sort of looking for AR to be an Amare replacement for the 13-18 mpg he’s on the bench. Maybe that’s the best thing for the team (probably not), but it’s not the best thing for AR individually. Maybe AR was just over-asserting himself against D’Antoni’s wishes.

  66. Ted Nelson

    rama: And I do think that attitude is for real and isn’t going away anytime soon, especially because they’re winning.  

    That’s not a 60 win team, though, so what happens when they start losing a few? That’s the problem with an unstable character guy like him… you never know when something’s going to set him off, but there’s always the possibility. Certainly he can turn it around, but it’s hard to believe unless he shows it to you for at least a couple of years.

    Artest, for example, seems mature and subdued in LA. For years, though, he was always one problem away. And Monta doesn’t necessarily have that Kobe or Jax in GS. Artest seems cool now, but I’d still rate him as a much higher risk to go batshit crazy at any moment than your average NBA player.

    The ego and potential attitude problem also becomes a potential problem if he ever is on a really, really good team. If you’re a really good, well balanced team you don’t necessarily want Monta at a usage rate of 30. You don’t necessarily want him taking shots away from other players. Is he a guy who can adjust: cutting out some bad shots to get some increasing returns by playing within the system? Or is he going to clash with coaches and teammates when he’s told we’re not playing run-and-gun and you can’t just do whatever you feel like??? Pretty hard to say unless you’re Monta Ellis, and even he might not know.

    rama: I was simply noting how great Curry is and how amazing a difference one draft number can make.

    I agree, just saying he’s not the only one the Knicks have missed/passed on. You could make a title contender out of those guys.

  67. tastycakes

    The next 15 games:

    vs Philly
    at Milwaukee
    vs Golden State
    at Minnesota
    vs Houston
    at Denver
    at Sacramento
    at Golden State
    at Clippers
    vs Charlotte
    at Charlotte
    vs Atlanta
    at Detroit
    vs New Jersey
    at New Orleans

    If I’m counting right, that’s only 4 playoff teams from last year, including 2 games vs 1 (CHA) that is probably a lot worse off this year. GS and NO may be the most improved.

    I’d be pretty happy with 13-7 — we’d have to go 10-5, and I must say that looks entirely feasible with this schedule. (Tough stretch ahead in late December though).

    Great potential subplot this year: the Knicks possibly finishing better than Houston and not having to swap picks. How sweet that would be!

  68. jaylamerique

    tastycakes: The next 15 games:vs Philly
    at Milwaukee
    vs Golden State
    at Minnesota
    vs Houston
    at Denver
    at Sacramento
    at Golden State
    at Clippers
    vs Charlotte
    at Charlotte
    vs Atlanta
    at Detroit
    vs New Jersey
    at New OrleansIf I’m counting right, that’s only 4 playoff teams from last year, including 2 games vs 1 (CHA) that is probably a lot worse off this year.GS and NO may be the most improved.I’d be pretty happy with 13-7 — we’d have to go 10-5, and I must say that looks entirely feasible with this schedule.(Tough stretch ahead in late December though).Great potential subplot this year:the Knicks possibly finishing better than Houston and not having to swap picks.How sweet that would be!  

    drinking the kool aid already.

  69. Thomas B.

    jaylamerique:
    drinking the kool aid already.  

    Isnt it great that we can actually do this again? To have hope. To look at the schedule and say “Hey, we could put a nice streak together here.” I’ve been waiting 10 years for a cup of this Kool-Aid. TastyCakes, pass a 40 oz. of that stuff my way!

  70. irvin00

    The best thing about this mini-teeny-tiny-micro-streak of good Knick basketball is that we can hope the young group can make the playoffs on its own and then, Walsh will not be desperate to throw a lot of money or young prospects like Gallo, Fields, Douglas or Randolph at Carmelo or anyone else. Yes, we will NOT win an NBA title with this group, but we seem to be very close to having a decent, competitive team, one or two consistent elite players away from championship contention.

    Maybe it’s way too soon and my optimism completely unfounded, but after not being in bed for so many years with Sweet Victory, Godess of Basketball, who can blame this fan for the premature ejaculation?

    :-)

  71. irvin00

    It’s a pity Victor Conte is out of business – he could have taken Anthony Randolph to his private gym and returned a Dwight Howard to the Knicks within 6 months, just in time for the playoffs!!!!!

    :-)

  72. Robert Silverman

    danvt: #

    I think a comparison to Rodman is not apt. Camby, either, who only late in his career learned to take the set shot the defense gave him. This guy has a complete package. Maybe, I’ll agree later this season. danvt

    (Quote)

    Danny me boy, I too have faith in AR. He’s clearly pressing (leading to a lot of the boneheaded decisions). If you watch the games, every time he makes a godawful play, he shoots a look towards the bench. But his skill set is through the roof for a 7 footer. I think Coach Mikey’s actually using him perfectly — giving him 10 mpg & allowing him to play through mistakes. Remember, it’s not as if he hasn’t already had some some monster games as a pro. Like w/Gallo’s slump the first 3 games (DANILO IS A BUST! THE SKY IS FALLING! TRADE FOR MELO NOWWWW!!!!!!), we all need to give this kid time. He’s going to have some really good games for the ‘Bockers this year. You can bet the farm on that one

  73. Robert Silverman

    For some reason, I quoted myself…

    Danny me boy, I too have faith in AR. He’s clearly pressing (leading to a lot of the boneheaded decisions). If you watch the games, every time he makes a godawful play, he shoots a look towards the bench. But his skill set is through the roof for a 7 footer. I think Coach Mikey’s actually using him perfectly — giving him 10 mpg & allowing him to play through mistakes. Remember, it’s not as if he hasn’t already had some some monster games as a pro. Like w/Gallo’s slump the first 3 games (DANILO IS A BUST! THE SKY IS FALLING! TRADE FOR MELO NOWWWW!!!!!!), we all need to give this kid time. He’s going to have some really good games for the ‘Bockers this year. You can bet the farm on that one

  74. Droidz1979

    tastycakes: Uh Droidz,You’re not “Bob Dole’s Left Hand” are you?Somebody in my fantasy league dropped Ramon Sesh for Toney, which is probably just a funny coincidence. I mean, Sessions for Toney is a transaction that is happening around the world, I’m guessing.  (Quote)

    lol
    I apparently named my team as Knicks2010 (not very creative i know) eventhough i only have Chandler in it. Somebody snagged Amare and Gallo before me but am glad that the ‘Toney D aberration’ has become a global phenomena and i could probably add Landry Fields in the near future before the rest of the league finds out that this year’s Knicks is for REAL.

  75. tastycakes

    Certainly I could be accused of “drinking the kool-aid.” I do it every year.

    This one feels different. In particular because through 5 games, the Knicks haven’t laid an egg. When was the last time our boys were competitive through 5 consecutive games?

    Not to say it won’t happen, not to say my most optimistic self won’t be disappointed again, but every year there are a couple of “surprise” teams and maybe this is our time to get lucky. (Not that luck has all that much to do with it).

    The media associates the Knicks with incompetence. One could argue there is good reason for this. Well this is the first year we’ve had a real, fully-Walsh-constructed roster, built to win ballgames.

  76. Droidz1979

    Nets 34 – Miami 33 : am actually rooting for the Nets to win this one lol
    Any team but Miami..

  77. Ted Nelson

    Robert Silverman: I think Coach Mikey’s actually using him perfectly — giving him 10 mpg & allowing him to play through mistakes.

    I agree with a few of your main points and am still high on AR… But 4 shots outside of 15 feet (3 outside 20 feet) and 2 within 5 feet is not what I’d call perfect. While he’s had successful games, he has not had a successful season scoring the ball. I would take the emphasis off shooting so much and try to get him more easy looks within the offense. He’s not helping the team or maximizing his skills. As long as he’s jacking up a 20 footer or going off the dribble every time he touches the ball, he can’t do the right things and the offense can’t function properly. It’s a lot like Amare most of the first 4 games… and once Amare adjusted in game 5 he had his best scoring game of the season. AR might have some big games if he keeps up this shot selection, but he’ll have a lot more bad games. The result will be another low TS%. On the other hand, he can be a valuable rotation guy if he’s not shooting 7 times every 10 minutes. He currently leads the Knicks in FGA/36. The defense is giving him those 20 footers for a reason: they want him to take them because they’re bad shots (for anyone, but especially a bad shooter) and they don’t want him to be used more effectively.

    Robert Silverman: we all need to give this kid time

    I agree about giving him time, but I don’t agree about him being used perfectly. Luckily he went 1-7 against the Wizards, but I don’t want to take 10 mpg in close games as a personal clinic for Anthony Randolph to try to become a perimeter shooting primary offensive weapon who does everything in isolation. I don’t think missing a bunch of jumpers and hogging the ball is going to do much for his development, personally. Tell him to stick to his strengths. He’s maybe the best rebounder, best playmaker (relative to position and in terms of making passes no one else can make), potentially one of the best defenders, one of the best foul drawers, but arguably the worst jump shooter on the entire team… How is taking a bunch of Js his perfect use?

  78. Ted Nelson

    Don’t get me wrong, Robert, I also think last night was an outlier too. Even if he did the same things over again in a new game he’d probably have better results. Better, just still not particularly good. If he passed the ball a little, just once even (haha), that could have been a very good game for him. That’s encouraging, but until we see him and possibly D’Antoni adjust it’s still frustrating.

  79. jj

    Ted Nelson & the Lee-aholics:
    I’m sorry, but where are the Lee-aholics who claimed Amare didn’t play defense???? Attention Lee-aholics – THIS is what a power forward is about. He DOESN’T get pushed off the blocks. He DOES try to block shots. He DOES stand in there and takes charges (minus flopping = extra MAN points). He DOES commit hard fouls. LMFA…O @ anyone comparing a half-talent like Lee to a LEGIT All-Star in Amare!!! Knicks at 3-2 are doing better than they ever were with Lee!

  80. Ted Nelson

    jj: Knicks at 3-2 are doing better than they ever were with Lee!  

    Great argument!!! The Warriors are 4-1, so Lee is the greatest!!! Yay!!!

    You are right: Lee is a terrible basketball player. You are right: Amare has always played defense with this much intensity, he did not work on his defense last season. Because he is a “man” he is a good basketball player, that’s all it takes: be a man and you are a good basketball player. You are right: People here actually said that Lee was better than Amare. Wait, none of those things are right. What are you even talking about?

  81. jj

    LMAO. Where are your stats? The stats PROVE that Amare is playing better defense than Lee. What a difference having someone playing defense like Amare does. The stats are showing Amare = wins.

  82. jj

    Amare is more productive because he actually PROTECTS the baseline and makes STOPS on the defensive end!

  83. Ted Nelson

    jj: Amare is more productive because he actually PROTECTS the baseline and makes STOPS on the defensive end!  

    Who has said that David Lee is a better defensive player than Amare??? Where are you coming from with this stuff?

  84. SJK

    @jj. I don’t think anyone ever said that Lee is better than Amar’e… No one has ever said that Amar’e isn’t a good player. Only that he hasn’t played extremely well on offense this year (until the wizards game). 25 TOs is not production but that does not make Amar’e a bad player or worse than Lee. It just means he’s forcing the issue to much and needs to settle in/calm down and figure out what works for him, which it seems like he’s working on. Amar’e was only criticized for his defense before the season started. He’s been surprisingly good this year, but he hasn’t been a good defender in the past. Also, for all of your talk about stats, where are your stats? 3-2 doesn’t really mean anything when, as Ted said, the Warriors are 4-1…

  85. jj

    Ted Nelson:
    Great argument!!! The Warriors are 4-1, so Lee is the greatest!!! Yay!!!You are right: Lee is a terrible basketball player. You are right: Amare has always played defense with this much intensity, he did not work on his defense last season. Because he is a “man” he is a good basketball player, that’s all it takes: be a man and you are a good basketball player. You are right: People here actually said that Lee was better than Amare. Wait, none of those things are right. What are you even talking about?  

    PER.

  86. ess-dog

    jj: Amare is more productive because he actually PROTECTS the baseline and makes STOPS on the defensive end!  

    Yeah, you’re kind of arguing against no one bro. I don’t think there’s one poster here that has said Lee is better than Amar’e, and probably no one even if you factor in the price tags of each. It doesn’t mean people can’t still like Lee as a talented hustle player, humanitarian, and all-around nice guy.

  87. jj

    SJK: @jj. I don’t think anyone ever said that Lee is better than Amar’e… No one has Also, for all of your talk about stats, where are your stats? 3-2 doesn’t really mean anything when, as Ted said, the Warriors are 4-1…  

    BLOCKS, WS, OR, DR, Offensive Win Share and Defense Win Share, PER, BLOCKS PER 36, FT%, AST%, ETC, ETC.

  88. nicos

    I really hope last night was an outlier for AR- unfortunately, he played pretty much the exact same way for the entire preseason. I know he didn’t play this out of control in GS but you can see why he spent a lot of time in Nelson’s doghouse. You’ve already got one project playing a steady 10-15 minutes a game in Timo- do you want to add a second one?

  89. Nick C.

    Late to the comment party I hope there is still some kool aid because after the last decade man am I thirsty. Just love that we see contributions from more or less everyone, defense and adjustments.

  90. nicos

    ess-dog: I ran into this tonight:http://dberri.wordpress.com/2010/11/05/the-least-productive-player-in-the-nba-today-is-one-of-the-most-expensive/  

    That article really annoyed me- we’re 5 games into the season and basically Amare had 1 mediocre game (Toronto), 2 pretty decent ones (Celtics, Wizards) 1 bad game (Portland) and 1 epically bad game (Chicago). That Chicago game was bad enough to allow Berri to write a completely meaningless article- if Berri wants to be the stat whisperer, a guy who’s taken seriously by GMs then why write an article where he’s clearly just using stats to make a snarky point? To drive up web traffic? You’re devaluing what you do- If you want people to take your system seriously don’t use it on throw away articles like this one.

  91. rama

    nicos: That article really annoyed me- we’re 5 games into the season and basically Amare had 1 mediocre game (Toronto), 2 pretty decent ones (Celtics, Wizards) 1 bad game (Portland) and 1 epically bad game (Chicago). That Chicago game was bad enough to allow Berri to write a completely meaningless article- if Berri wants to be the stat whisperer, a guy who’s taken seriously by GMs then why write an article where he’s clearly just using stats to make a snarky point? To drive up web traffic? You’re devaluing what you do- If you want people to take your system seriously don’t use it on throw away articles like this one.  (Quote)

    Nicos – I didn’t think it was that snarky; he finishes by saying if AR and Amare return to their prior year form, things could look very good for the Knicks. He pretty much acknowledes the sample size is too small and that things are bound to approach the historical mean.

  92. Thomas B.

    Golden State has played one of the weakest schedules to start the season. They played 1 team with a winning record so far–they lost that game. Next three are the Pistons, Toronto, then oh my what is this New York. Well I guess we shall see David Lee break out that trademark defensive stance of his and the mighty word he screams to go with the defense. You all know the word he says on defense. Say it with me now: “Ole!”

  93. Ted Nelson

    nicos: I really hope last night was an outlier for AR- unfortunately, he played pretty much the exact same way for the entire preseason.

    I mean that the results are an outlier. Even in Nellie’s doghouse his TS% was .525 last season. This season (in 13 minutes) it’s around .150. I mean that he won’t miss all his FTAs, and he’ll hit even bad shots occasionally. He probably won’t get an ofoul every time he drives, but probably often enough to be aggravating.
    I would hope he changes things up and takes a different approach, but even if not he shouldn’t go 1-7 every night (and also shouldn’t have 7 reb or 2 blocks every 10 minutes).

    nicos: You’ve already got one project playing a steady 10-15 minutes a game in Timo- do you want to add a second one?

    He’s already added. There were a lot of positives out there for AR. I really think if he were out there with a better group, like Timo is, he might get some easy transition slams like Timo did last night. Instead he’s miscast initiating the offense in iso sets.

    Thomas B.: Golden State has played one of the weakest schedules to start the season.

    I was being facetious… jj claimed that because the Knicks are 3-2, Amare must be a better basketball player than David Lee. If the only thing that matters in evaluating your basketball ability is your team’s record (clearly it’s not), it’s odd to say Amare is clearly better when Lee’s team has a better record. Basically, he’s a troll and I was just messing around.

  94. greatscott

    Knicks have only played two teams that have a winning record and they lost those games. That “1 team” GS lost to is the Lakers.

    jj:
    WS, OR, DR, Offensive Win Share and Defense Win Share.  

    WS: Amare 0.0, Lee .084 Advantage Lee
    OWS: Amare -0.3, Lee .1 Advantage Lee
    DWS: Amare 0.2, Lee 0.3 Advantage Lee
    OR: Amare 89, Lee 101 Advantage Lee
    DR: Amare 104, Lee 104 Tied

    jj:
    PER.  

    PER: Amare 12.2, Lee 14 Advantage Lee

    jjKnicks at 3-2 are doing better than they ever were with Lee!  

    Amare/NY 3-2 (should be 3-3 if Orlando game was played)
    Lee/GS 4-1
    Advantage Lee

  95. Z

    ess-dog: I ran into this tonight:http://dberri.wordpress.com/2010/11/05/the-least-productive-player-in-the-nba-today-is-one-of-the-most-expensive/I was all set to laugh at Kahn signing the 2nd least productive player to date until I scrolled down and saw the #1 LEAST productive…Joke’s on me.Also at Berri, there’s a nice bit about Landry Fields further down.  

    And I scrolled further down and saw Berri quote Italian Stallion. Thanks.

    Ted Nelson:
    Yeah, but that’s like saying every time you watch the Lakers you feel the pain of taking John Wallace, Walter McCarty, and Dontae Jones in ’96 instead of trading up for Kobe or at least taking Z and of taking Frye over Bynum and Weis over Artest and trading Ariza and Balkman over Rondo… water under the bridge.
    (Maybe a little too obvious, but going into arguably the best draft ever with 3 first rounders and winding up with those 3 is definitely an unsung moment in Knicks history…   

    I think I may have suggested to Brian he do an unsung piece on that draft. It’s interesting because the Knicks got one of those picks from Miami for tampering with Riley.

  96. Brian Cronin

    Golden State has played one of the weakest schedules to start the season. They played 1 team with a winning record so far–they lost that game. Next three are the Pistons, Toronto, then oh my what is this New York. Well I guess we shall see David Lee break out that trademark defensive stance of his and the mighty word he screams to go with the defense. You all know the word he says on defense. Say it with me now: “Ole!”

    Did David Lee punch your mom or something?

  97. Mulligan

    Re: AR – Remember, he missed most of last season and his first real NBA action was during pre-season. He might not even feel that comfortable on the court yet, or be in any kind of rhythm. We all knew the kid would need time going into this.

    On the subject of fantasy hoops, which I don’t play, I wonder what “real” NBA team would make the best fantasy team. I’m thinking the Magic just because of their roster and style of play, but the Knicks have to be in that conversation too, don’t they? So many blocks, steals, 3′s etc.

  98. KnickFanInCelticLand

    “Randolph has been a disappointment to me, really has zero shot or b-ball IQ.” and all others already wanting to give up on AR

    AR had a serious ankle injury last year. If public reports are correct, he “ruptured 2 ligaments and avulved a bone.” My educated guess is that the two ligaments were the anterior talo-fibular and the lateral calcaneal-fibular ligament. His surgeon probably repaired this by taking tendon tissue from one that the doctor deels is not critical replacing the ligaments. The fracture piece was taken out if it was small or tacked back on with tiny “screws” if it was larger. Post surgery, such an ankle such an ankle is tighter but gradually gets more mobility with use. Physical therapy gets back some of the ankle function (stability, stength, balance feedback, etc.), but for a freakish athlete like AR the minute differences mulitply, especially for his shooting. This is why his shot was not quite as bad in preseason. The effort in preseason basketball is a few notches down from the season level even if it is not always visible to the naked eye. AR’s brain is adapting to his new ankle all the while the ankle is still changing (getting more mobil and symetrical with the other ankle). This is chaos for his J.

    His decision making is another story but, IMHO, the poor decisions are compounded by a body that is betraying him for the first time in his young life. This too shall improve as he gets through the refractory rehab period I mention above.

    I, for one, will be more patient with him. However, even if his future is a 1-3 option on O he should start as a 4or 5 option as he works his way back.

  99. jimmyjam

    Ted Nelson:
    Great argument!!! The Warriors are 4-1, so Lee is the greatest!!! Yay!!!You are right: Lee is a terrible basketball player. You are right: Amare has always played defense with this much intensity, he did not work on his defense last season. Because he is a “man” he is a good basketball player, that’s all it takes: be a man and you are a good basketball player. You are right: People here actually said that Lee was better than Amare. Wait, none of those things are right. What are you even talking about?  

    Brian Cronin:
    Did David Lee punch your mom or something?  

    Lee is a half-talent. Your fanboy attitudes cloud your vision. lmfao @ all you clowns criticizing Amare for his passing. That’s rich. I can live with a few Amare turnovers if it means BETTER defense from a positiion that DEMANDS it. lmao at the Warrios 4-1. The media talked about Amare not playing defense. Seems to me as if he plays it when he wants/needs to. Lee NEVER plays it because he CAN’T play it effectively. Learn the difference and stop breaking down MEANINGLESS points to justify the obvious.

  100. cgreene

    I’m outta of the country this week (London). Anyone know best way to watch here either online or TV? Thanks

  101. SeeWhyDee77

    BigBlueAL: I will truly be excited if the Knicks do the same thing to Philly that they did to the Wizards tonight.lol  

    No Iggy today..this game should be in tha pocket. Lou Williams and Toney Douglas should be a good matchup to keep an eye on

  102. d-mar

    Today would be a great opportunity to get AR some major minutes if the Knicks can build a big lead on a depleted Sixer team. I think he needs to be on the court for an extended period of time and somehow relax and not feel like he has to take one shot for every minute of playing time.

  103. jimmyjam

    greatscott: Knicks have only played two teams that have a winning record and they lost those games. That “1 team” GS lost to is the Lakers.WS: Amare 0.0, Lee .084 Advantage Lee
    OWS: Amare -0.3, Lee .1 Advantage Lee
    DWS: Amare 0.2, Lee 0.3 Advantage Lee
    OR: Amare 89, Lee 101 Advantage Lee
    DR: Amare 104, Lee 104 Tied
    PER: Amare 12.2, Lee 14 Advantage Lee
    Amare/NY 3-2 (should be 3-3 if Orlando game was played)
    Lee/GS 4-1
    Advantage Lee  

    Stop breaking down MEANINGLESS stats. I can see with my own EYES that Amare is better and Lee is a half-talent. It was a choice for for teams to make Amare play bad because the they said lets make the other guys PLAY.

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