Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Thursday, October 23, 2014

Knicks 111, Nets 100

I was going to do a quick write-up of the game, but I thought I’d switch it around for today. Tell me what you saw yesterday. What propelled the team to victory? Who was key for the Knicks? Did they do it with offense or defense? What plays stuck out in your mind? Did they make any tactical changes?

I’m curious what you thought.

Links:
Box Score
Play-By-Play

74 comments on “Knicks 111, Nets 100

  1. NYK Ewing

    Just gonna copy and paste exactly what I posted to some buddies on FB:

    Tonight was exactly what I needed to see from this Knicks squad. So what, we beat a bad Nets team that’s awful on the road. So what, they didn’t have arguably their best player in DH for the second half. So what, we let Brook Lopez shit all over us in the low post. We did what we needed to do: we won convincingly at home and looked great doing it.

    I’ve seen two previous wins against bad teams live at the Garden (CHA and WAS). We won those, but there were so many issues. We seem to have solved big ones tonight. Felton is finally getting the pick and roll – you can tell because it worked with players other than Amare. We boxed out for boards. We played great help defense. The Knicks played with confidence and I think we can keep it up as our chemistry grows.

    +Pick and roll sexiness from Felton. Beautiful passes after the defense fell for it, finished well when they didn’t.
    +Amare – beast. Reliable, the unquestionable leader of this team.
    +Rebounds. We boxed out Lopez very well and didn’t allow many offensive boards. We fought for some good O boards too, with Chandler, Stoud, Fields, and even Gallo trying (but not successfully).
    – Defense on the big man. We resorted to doubling Lopez, which gave them some easy 3s at the start. Amare is just too short for him.
    -Dantonis lineups. Bill Walker shouldn’t get playing time even if he’s putting in this much heart. He’s not athletic enough to not be a liability on D. Dantoni needs to match up our players defensively better with theirs, and he didn’t do that. Props to him though for timely subs when players sucked it up.
    Two minor +s for Mozgov and Randolph. Mozgov played well against Lopez and was quickly pulled because of garbage fouls against him. Seriously, the refs need to lay off. Randolph also did well defensively for the 2 seconds he was in.

  2. NYK Ewing

    Ran out of space for the last minus:

    -Gallo. His inconsistency is making him awful. He bricked around 5 3s and they were WIDE open. He doesn’t drive hard to the basket, and everything I commented about him yesterday shone through in this game. I know a lot of other Knicks fans see his potential, but right now I’m calling a spade a spade and saying he will never be more than a decent spot-up 3pt shooter (and he’s not even there yet on a consistent level). I was actually shocked that he had double-digit scoring at the end. The fouls called on his drives were pretty bad (especially one against Harris that was a terrible call), and tonight you could tell he was getting frustrated when refs rightfully didn’t give him calls on his sloppy drives. I don’t care anymore that most Knicks fans love him. They only seem to remember two 3s he’ll hit late in a game that aren’t nearly enough to justify the bricks he laid earlier and the 0’fers he had the two previous games. I pray that the Nuggets see something useful in him and ask for him instead of Chandler.

  3. jon abbey

    I haven’t seen every game, but that was easily the best I’ve seen Felton look in terms of passing the ball. so many beautiful assists, I’m amazed he only ended up with 10 total.

  4. Nick C.

    I thought the key was at the start of the second half they came out very agressive on defense. It may have been the first possession they doubled Lopez and got a steal which may have given them back the lead and then in no time it seemed like they were up 10.

  5. ltmurray

    @ 2

    I so badly want Gallo to be great that I can’t help but defend him. He was definitely off last night (missed 2 FTs!), but I liked how he knocked down his first 3, and then drew a foul on his next 3 point attempt because the Nets were so worried he’d hit another (which he didn’t).

    I know Melo can shoot, but I’ll wait until the Knicks play some more upper tier teams before I’m ready to send Gallo away.

    I think last night was only the second time the Knicks have won a game when he’s hit less than 2 threes.

  6. Z

    Though the lead was only ten for much of the 4th quarter, I don’t think anyone felt worried that they’d let the Nets steal it. Unlike earlier games where the Knicks let bad teams close 4th Q deficits, this one they owned with tough D and intelligent O. Hopefully they’ve turned the corner.

  7. NYK Ewing

    ltmurray: @ 2I think last night was only the second time the Knicks have won a game when he’s hit less than 2 threes.  (Quote)

    People have used that argument before but I don’t like it, mostly because it could be restated as “The Knicks lose when Gallo loses valuable possessions by bricking 3s.”

    I know that Gallo has talent, but he’s got so many other issues (I commented on this yesterday) that he’s at best a roleplayer and not a superstar or elite sidekick. Nor will he be until he’s consistent.

  8. NYK Ewing

    I hate to come off as a Gallo basher, because I like the idea of him as a player and love his attitude (ie: not letting his home country success get to his head a la Ricky Rubio, wanting to play in NY, etc). I know he’s capable of huge games (his matchup vs Carmelo was fantastic last year). But he’s a liability on defense and rebounds (especially considering he’s Amare’s height!!), and he needs to be consistent on offense to make up for it. One 30 pt game every so often doesn’t do it for me. He needs to be able to drain open threes consistently (at this point people like Matt Bonner have done a better job at this) and then, if people want him to be close to the superstar that they see in him, he has to hit contested 3s (which he has, but he’s shaky still).

    I want him to succeed, but his inconsistency is killing me.

    I’m not too sure what other people think about this, but I would much rather have Chandler (slasher, much better defender, better rebounder) than Gallo (pure shooter) on a team that has Melo on it.

  9. Garson

    With Felton getting more and more comfortable with this offense i think we might have found our PG of the future. His aggresiveness to the basket is not common in the NBA and hes ability to finish at the hole is very hard to duplicate… The only players i see as a better in the paint scorer are Deron, Parker and maybe Paul…

    If Felton can prove that he can do this for the next 2 seasons… we might be able to use the last Max on something more suited to our needs.

    I think the perfect player to round out our boys is Marc Gasol… He is a presance in the paint , rebounds, has good hands and is not a headcase. I dont think he would command the full max however would be a perfect piece to our puzzle.

  10. rohank

    My favorite play was the pick and roll alley-oop from felton to stoudemire at the end of the 1st half. Why can’t they just do that on every possession?

  11. Mike Kurylo Post author

    NYK Ewing: -Dantonis lineups. Bill Walker shouldn’t get playing time even if he’s putting in this much heart. He’s not athletic enough to not be a liability on D. Dantoni needs to match up our players defensively better with theirs, and he didn’t do that. Props to him though for timely subs when players sucked it up.

    Agree that he’s a liabiltiy on defense, but I don’t think it’s a lack of athleticism. Walker can get up. I think he’s a good spot player. A very efficient shooter, but maddeningly doesn’t contribute with rebounding, defense. But he’s a good 7th or 8th man.

  12. Nick C.

    Mike Kurylo: Agree that he’s a liabiltiy on defense, but I don’t think it’s a lack of athleticism. Walker can get up. I think he’s a good spot player. A very efficient shooter, but maddeningly doesn’t contribute with rebounding, defense. But he’s a good 7th or 8th man.  (Quote)

    I thought watching the game that NJ has Harris and Lopez and a bunch of guys that are 7-10th men, whereas the Knicks have a roatation of Amare and 2nd or 3rd to 7th men. Your Walker comment reminded me of this b/c I think that could describe Morrow or Outlaw to a large extent and they start at the wings. So it is nice that such a player is a bit player with the Knicks and perhaps a sign (among many) that things are moving in the right direction.

  13. Frank

    Obviously I was really impressed by Felton and STAT, but I wonder how much of how good they looked was how crappily the Nets defended the PnR. I’d like to think that Felton’s improved scoring ability is responsible for how well that play has worked the last few games, but it might just be bad D also. Surprisingly bad D from an Avery Johnson team.

    Bill Walker seems to have regressed this year — he really seems to give nothing other than a 3 point stroke. He may as well be a worse-shooting version of Jason Kapono — valuable to have, sure, but not all that important. I think once Azubuike is ready, Walker will be reduced to garbage time minutes.

    Re: Mozgov – I agree completely with NYK Ewing. I feel like the refs heard somewhere that he’s very foul prone, and are calling every last little ticky-tack foul on him. Maybe they’re just breaking in the young Russian. Though seriously, he has hands of STONE.

    Overall though, I was really happy watching that game. Good to see the Knicks finally completely outclass an inferior team. Big test on Friday – a team that I think NYK match up reasonably well against, especially if Turiaf is back.

    RE: non-Melo 2011 acquistions – I would LOVE to see Tyson Chandler here. Now that he’s healthy again, he has been a beast. TS of 75.6%?!?!?!!? Yes please. 12 pts, 12 boards, 2 blocks per 36? 7 footer who can run and showed with Chris Paul that he can seriously finish on the PnR also? Yes please. He seems to have learned how to shoot free throws too.

  14. Frank

    Meanwhile, I have become very protective of Landry Fields — what is with Hollinger and David Thorpe persistently calling him a below-average athlete? It’s like they’re just reading Chad Ford’s scouting report. Oh wait, he’s not even a top 100 draftee.

  15. Nick C.

    Frank: Meanwhile, I have become very protective of Landry Fields — what is with Hollinger and David Thorpe persistently calling him a below-average athlete? It’s like they’re just reading Chad Ford’s scouting report. Oh wait, he’s not even a top 100 draftee.  (Quote)

    I hate to be an A-hole but how much of that is just them stereotyping based on a quick glance at his picture and pigmentation or lack theirof?

  16. ess-dog

    I know it’s early, but all 5 starters have a WS48 over .127 (.100 is average in the NBA.) And Chandler stands at .113 after last night. Gallo is tops at .159. And everyone has a PER btwn 22 and 15 except for Turiaf who’s at 13.8 (Chandler’s at 17.6.)
    In plain speak, we have 6 above-average players, one of which is an all-star.
    If Douglas, AR and Moz could all just get to average (15 PER, .100 WS48) we could raise some hell in the playoffs.

  17. Z

    Frank: I feel like the refs heard somewhere that he’s very foul prone, and are calling every last little ticky-tack foul on him.   

    Maybe it’s a remnant of the 90s– when refs would call fouls on backup centers the second they stepped on the court. Ewing never fouled Olajuwon, but Herb Williams used to hack him to bits :)

  18. NYK Ewing

    One of the things about playing in the greatest city in the world is that all of our wins are blown out of proportion and all of our losses seem like the end of the world by the huge force that is the NYC media. Thank God Stoudemire and Dantoni have been realistic about our season so far – we’ve had the easiest one of any team in the league (in terms of opp win%). I wouldn’t start thinking that this team is playoff worthy yet, we have a long way to go.

  19. Thomas B.

    Three things. 1) The defense improved in the 2nd half 2) Devin Harris left the game in the 3rd 3) Stat and Felton are looking really good together.

    Harris left the game at 6:20 in the third with the score 65-67. The Nets only scored 8 points the rest of the quarter and trailed 73-88. They got 4 points from Lopez, a free throw, and a Famar 3pfg. The turned the ball over 4 times over the last 6:20 w/o Harris. This was also Lopez’s least productive quarter with just 6 of his 36 points on 2 of 8 shooting. Lopez only scored 6 in the 2q but he only played 5:45.

    With Harris out and just a bit better play on defense the Nets played to their expected offensive production in the second half. Sure they scored more than average, but that is in part to the faster pace in this game (93.1) than what is normal for the Nets (88.4). Also Lopez’s eFG% was .583 which is waaaay above his average (44.1). Basically the Nets got a boost from playing the Knicks’ poor FG defense, but then they came back down to earth in the second half.

    Hey Mike, How long before you can run similarity scores on Landry Fields? I’d love to see to whom Fileds compares.

  20. Mike Kurylo Post author

    BigBlueAL: As to Gallo, to me he is 500X quicker this season than I have ever seen him before.Have you seen how he is running the floor on fastbreaks??I have seen him start by his own basket and by mid-court be ahead of everybody.His quickness to me is much, much, much improved.  

    This is from the last thread, but I wanted to point out that Gallo told me he worked on his quickness with a personal trainer this offseason.

  21. Mike Kurylo Post author

    Thomas B.: Hey Mike, How long before you can run similarity scores on Landry Fields? I’d love to see to whom Fileds compares.

    It’s not easy to do mid-season, but I’m guessing it won’t be this early. If I do it, it won’t be till mid-year.

  22. Frank

    To continue my Landry love-fest, I did 10 sec of research and realized that in the first 19 games of his career, he has the best per-min rebounding rate of any guard in the last 10 years. And it’s not close. He’s averaging 11.3 rebounds/48, and the next closest was McGrady x2 nearly a decade ago at 9.8 reb/48.

    It’s really too bad he’s not athletic enough to outrebound all those athletic centers, PFs, and SF. If only he could be as athletic as Dwyane Wade (8.1 reb/48) or Demar Derozan (a “Freak athlete” according to Draftexpress, averaging 5.2 reb/48)!

  23. alsep73

    Landry Fields, Rookie of the Month for the East: http://twitter.com/alanhahn/status/10060950124109824

    Not too shabby, even with Wall hurt.

    I’d love to see those similarity scores when they’re done, Mike. It’s clear we have a player here, so the question becomes how good he can be. If he’s never more than a smart, versatile glue guy, that’s still fantastic for the 39th pick, but his best-case scenario is going to be… ?

  24. d-mar

    I know by opponents winning % we’ve had the easiest schedule, but we’ve also played (and won) more road games than any team in the NBA. I would agree that losing many more home games to playoff teams (like the Hawks) would be a bad sign, but no matter who you’re playing, 5 straight road wins is impressive for any team. We’re not playoff worthy compared to who? Bucks? Bobcats? Cavs? I just don’t see those teams as being clearly superior to us.

    NYK Ewing: One of the things about playing in the greatest city in the world is that all of our wins are blown out of proportion and all of our losses seem like the end of the world by the huge force that is the NYC media. Thank God Stoudemire and Dantoni have been realistic about our season so far – we’ve had the easiest one of any team in the league (in terms of opp win%). I wouldn’t start thinking that this team is playoff worthy yet, we have a long way to go.  (Quote)

  25. NYK Ewing

    @25

    That’s a fair point. But so far we’ve sucked at home. The only close game I saw was against Portland. I personally sat through us lose to the 6ers (without Iggy!), the Warriors, and the Rockets (without Brooks or Ming). Granted, I hope that was in our temporary ‘confidence building’ phase, but who knows at this point.

    And you’re right, the East is so weak that we’ll probably make it, though we don’t really have much hope against CHI – ORL – BOS and I bet MIA once they’re healthy and working together. But one injury and we could suddenly be out of it. I just hate how we overhype wins that aren’t as big when the best one we’ve had was Chicago without Boozer.

  26. Caleb

    NYK Ewing: the East is so weak that we’ll probably make it

    East is 83-83 against the West…

    Anyway, an incredibly soft sked makes the winning record a little misleading, but playing so much on the road, and so many back-to-backs (Knicks have played more games than any team in the league, aside from having the weakest schedule), makes up some of the difference.

    More than that, IMO there’s no question the Knicks will improve as the season goes on. With so many new players, they’re only just getting familiar with each other. More than that, it’s a very young team, with almost everyone is still on the upswing. We’ve gotten zilch from Anthony Randolph yet. Don’t expect that to last all season.

    Injuries are a wild-card for every team, not just us, but these Knicks are pretty deep. Save for Stoudemire and maybe Felton, I think they could afford losing anyone for a big chunk. (Obviously Gallo would hurt, but there are other shooters and other small forwards so it wouldn’t be fatal).

    I don’t think anyone expects the Knicks to make it out of the first round, but I’d say that #6 is a reasonable goal. With the December/January sked, the record will get worse before it gets better, but under .500 at the end of the season would count as a mild disappointment to me.

    If you want to talk overhyped, look at Derrick Rose. Although Noah is about equally underhyped so it probl’y evens out. I don’t see the Bulls sniffing the conf finals – just as likely they come apart and win 40-45.

  27. Count Zero

    Caleb:
    More than that, IMO there’s no question the Knicks will improve as the season goes on. With so many new players, they’re only just getting familiar with each other.

    ^^^^This — a thousand times this!

    I fully expected them to suck until January, with glimpses of competitiveness in the second half. The fact that they look even this competitive after only 19 games is a complete surprise to me, and I think it bodes well for what they will become by March.

  28. Jafa

    @26

    I don’t think Chicago is better than us, even with Boozer. In a 7 game series (which will probably never happen as the Bulls will probably win the Central by default and end up probably facing ATL in a 4th vs. 5th seed matchup) I think we win in 6. And this is with our current roster all healthy.

  29. Frank

    Landry Fields winning rookie of the month over John Wall is really amazing if you consider it — 10 points and 7 rebounds won out over 18 pts and 9 assists from the #1 pick in the draft. I’m going to hand partial credit for this one to Mike K, who is definitely part of the explosion of the use of advanced stats, which finally is filtering into the non-Berman/Isola/Vecsey media.

  30. Z

    Thomas B.: Harris left the game at 6:20 in the third with the score 65-67. The Nets only scored 8 points the rest of the quarter…   

    But the Nets only scored 7 points during the 6 minutes Devin Harris DID play. (Addition by subtraction!)

    NYK Ewing: I just hate how we overhype wins that aren’t as big when the best one we’ve had was Chicago without Boozer.   

    The Bulls without Boozer is the Bulls. He’s never played a second of basketball for them, ever. That’s like saying the Pistons win didn’t count because they didn’t play Rodman. Fact is, we would have beaten the ’96 Bulls if we shoot as well as we did against the 2011 Bulls.

    Nick C.:
    I hate to be an A-hole but how much of that is just them stereotyping based on a quick glance at his picture and pigmentation or lack theirof?  

    Pretty sure Fields is black, no?

  31. Z-man

    It bugs me that some people trash Gallo so much. He is only 22, this is really his 2nd year in the league and his entire first year was played with a team in constant personnel transition. Like last year when Chandler was 21, people talked about him as if he had crashed into his ceiling, yet this year we would be a mess without him. Why is it so hard to accept that young players are generally inconsistent and that they get better over time? Gallo has had some monster games already this year, so there is no reason to believe that he won’t string those games together as he gets older, wiser, stronger, etc. and plays with the same guys for a while.

  32. Abasi

    I think the Knicks defensive woes will become apparent once they face the league’s better teams. The winning streak has been against some of the worst teams in the NBA, but it seems like every night somebody has a career offensive game against the Knicks.

    I hope I’m wrong, but I’m almost certain that lack of defense coupled with opposing defenses that won’t allow the knicks to go over the 100 points per game will bring a lot of disappointment to us loyal fans. In other words, the Knicks will lose the overwhelming majority of games when they don’t score more than 100 points.

  33. jaylamerique

    Jafa: @26I don’t think Chicago is better than us, even with Boozer.In a 7 game series (which will probably never happen as the Bulls will probably win the Central by default and end up probably facing ATL in a 4th vs. 5th seed matchup) I think we win in 6.And this is with our current roster all healthy.  

    whoa, put down the kool aid and step away from it. The Bulls are a very good defensive team. With Noah on their team they would basically make our p-n-r game non-existent in a series and control the boards. There’s also no one on our team that could guard D.Rose.

  34. ess-dog

    Abasi: I think the Knicks defensive woes will become apparent once they face the league’s better teams. The winning streak has been against some of the worst teams in the NBA, but it seems like every night somebody has a career offensive game against the Knicks.I hope I’m wrong, but I’m almost certain that lack of defense coupled with opposing defenses that won’t allow the knicks to go over the 100 points per game will bring a lot of disappointment to us loyal fans. In other words, the Knicks will lose the overwhelming majority of games when they don’t score more than 100 points.  

    I think the defense is a lot better (average) with a healthy Turiaf in the middle. The problem is that you never know how healthy he will be. I think Mozgov will “get it” eventually, but it would be nice to have another real center right now. But super-active, smart, defensive-minded 7 footers don’t grow on trees. At least the front 4 all range from very good to solid on D. It would also be nice to have another great defender to back up the 2/3 now that Chandler is a 4. I hold out hope for Azu, but his return to 100% is not likely.

  35. ess-dog

    jaylamerique:
    whoa, put down the kool aid and step away from it. The Bulls are a very good defensive team. With Noah on their team they would basically make our p-n-r game non-existent in a series and control the boards.There’s also no one on our team that could guard D.Rose.  

    Agreed. Even if you think Rose is overrated, with a healthy Boozer the Bulls should be a very good team (a notch above us.)

  36. BigBlueAL

    Yeah there is a bit too much dismissing of the Bulls here. They are better than the Knicks right now w/o Boozer having played for them yet. W/Boozer the Bulls are one of the Top 4 teams in the East and could very well sneak into the Conference Finals in my opinion.

  37. Thomas B.

    Z:
    But the Nets only scored 7 points during the 6 minutes Devin Harris DID play. (Addition by subtraction!)

    Well if you are also willing to ignore all the points the Nets scored in the first half with Devin Harris then sure addition by subtraction. 4 turnovers after Harris left how many before that?

  38. Z-man

    Thomas B.: Well if you are also willing to ignore all the points the Nets scored in the first half with Devin Harris then sure addition by subtraction. 4 turnovers after Harris left how many before that?  (Quote)

    For what it’s worth, Farmar was keeping the Nets in the game from 3-pt land; w/o him, the Knicks probably put the game away earlier.

  39. Thomas B.

    Keeping them in the game? When he came in they were by 2. Then he played the rest of the game and they lost by 11 and it really wasnt even that close. So how did he keep them in a double digit loss? Please explain that one to me.

  40. d-mar

    Just watched the last 3 minutes of the Blazer-Celtic game. Celts were up by 16 with 3:30 left and had their lead cut to 1 with 30 seconds left. Allen buries a dagger 3 with 10 left to seal the game. But listening to Tommy Heinsohn made it much more painful, what a joke! “That’s a f0ul” “He was fouled” “Just give the ball to Pierce for chrissakes!” It’s like giving the mike to a random drunk Boston fan and letting him rant, unbelievable.

  41. Z-man

    Thomas B.: Keeping them in the game? When he came in they were by 2. Then he played the rest of the game and they lost by 11 and it really wasnt even that close.So how did he keep them in a double digit loss?Please explain that one to me.  

    Wow, pretty snarky, TB…

    At 0:59.9 in the third, the Knicks were up 14 points. From then until 4:08 in the fourth, Farmar scored 12 points and had 2 assists, and the Knicks were up 10 points. While obviously Harris is the better player and was a big loss, Farmar more than held his own at the PG spot in the 4th Q.

  42. Z-man

    PS Farmar just had 25 pts and 9 assists in an OT loss to OKC. Yeah, he got smoked by Westbrook, but who doesn’t?

  43. BigBlueAL

    I have no problem with drafting Gallo but knowing that from what I read at the time the Knicks top choice was Russell Westbrook man too bad he didnt drop to #6 that year. The kid has become an absolute beast.

  44. JK47

    We’re already a very good offensive team, and could emerge into an elite offensive team– we now rank #6 in offensive rating. SSOL is working, folks. We were #17 in offensive rating last year, so we’ve vastly improved on the offensive side of the ball.

    It looks like we have good players at PG (Felton), SG (Fields), SF (Chandler, Gallo) and PF (Amar’e). Obviously we need a center. I like Turiaf as a 20-minute per game role player, but he’s not durable enough and does not rebound well enough to be a full-time starting C. As well as he’s played for us at times this season, his rebounding is just godawful: 5.1 rebounds per 36 minutes.

    If we can keep the current core together and add a good, durable defensive C who isn’t a total liability on offense, we could really do some damage.

  45. Thomas B.

    Z-man:
    Wow, pretty snarky, TB…At 0:59.9 in the third, the Knicks were up 14 points.From then until 4:08 in the fourth, Farmar scored 12 points and had 2 assists, and the Knicks were up 10 points.While obviously Harris is the better player and was a big loss, Farmar more than held his own at the PG spot in the 4th Q.  

    Yes it was snarky, but true.

    He was a -17 for the game, lowest of all Nets players. 3 turnovers, no steals, 4 dimes are not bad for a backup but he played 30 minutes and had Lopez to feed. He took his own shots at the expense of the rest of the team. He shot them away from what was working–Lopez. He was the Nets’ version of Z-Bo: big numbers that take the team out of the game. Okay that was unfair. But he didnt really do much to help, unless you want to say he kept it from being a 22 point loss. Then sure, JF is the man. I’ll say this for him, he is better than Roger Mason Jr.

  46. jon abbey

    BigBlueAL: I have no problem with drafting Gallo but knowing that from what I read at the time the Knicks top choice was Russell Westbrook man too bad he didnt drop to #6 that year.The kid has become an absolute beast.  

    this still haunts me, especially because I can’t forget Walsh’s smug smile in his interview pre-draft where he was obviously convinced that Westbrook would drop to us.

    I was trying to figure out the last time NY had a very good young guard (I refuse to count Mark Jackson), Michael Ray Richardson? I still can’t believe Walsh took Hill instead of a PG.

  47. Brian Cronin

    102/105, but I call BS because I was typing Van Horn in repeatedly and it wouldn’t count it!

    Of the two I legitimately missed, I think they were the two most obscure guys on the list (2001’s center and 1992’s small forward). I was at the 2005 home opener so I knew the 2005 small forward, which I would put as the third most obscure answer on the list.

  48. rama

    I’m not even going to try to do the roster thing. I’d do OK, but some things are best left forgotten! Like the last 10 years.

    NYK Ewing: I hate to come off as a Gallo basher, because I like the idea of him as a player and love his attitude (ie: not letting his home country success get to his head a la Ricky Rubio, wanting to play in NY, etc). I know he’s capable of huge games (his matchup vs Carmelo was fantastic last year). But he’s a liability on defense and rebounds (especially considering he’s Amare’s height!!), and he needs to be consistent on offense to make up for it.  (Quote)

    NYE – I’m not sure what “the idea” of Gallo is, but the actual Gallo is already a pretty good player, and as someone else pointed out, IS 22. IN HIS SECOND FULL SEASON. Sure, it would be great if he was more consistent – we all want to see that – but by any indicator PER, WS, etc), he’s a very good offensive player already. You are calling him out after a bad night – and yet he shot 33% from 3 and had more points than shots taken, which is one way to know he wasn’t terrible. Whether you agree with the calls he got, he did go to the line…and has done so consistently all season. YOu need to consider actual statistics when evaluating players, not just complain because someone isn’t hitting open 3s.

    Beyond that, his D is solid. Yeah, Prince killed him, but he killed Wil that night, too. Gallo’s D was pretty good on him; I watched that game twice and really focused on it.

  49. rama

    NYKE – Also, Gallo’s rebounding is about average for his position. He plays the 3, not the 4 or 5, which means that the guy he’s guarding isn’t around the hoop as much as a 4 or 5, which means he has fewer opportunities. Yes, it would be great if he improved, but average is…average. Not bad.

    Of course, Landry Fields is a whole other story! So far the best rebounding guard ever?? Wow.

  50. slovene knick

    Agree on Gallo Rama.

    Not so with NYK Ewing, your, have to admit, strong points on Gallo are based on your gut felling and not facts.
    Z – said something very true some threads ago when arguing with someone about that matter.Thanks Z.

    & Where’s Ted when you need him.

  51. stratomatic

    I love Gallo, but IMO he gets too much of a free pass from fans.

    He’s a slightly below average rebounder for the SF position. He has actually also played more PF this year. So if anything he should be rebounding better. But his rebounding is down a little.

    He’s also a below average playmaker relative to the position and IMO a below average defender (though that’s harder to measure).

    As much as it pains me to say this, his only real value comes from his above average scoring efficiency and low turnovers.

    Even on the scoring side I see some question marks though. His efficiency this year has been tied to getting to the FT line so often. But that flop move is not going to work in the playoffs when the game gets more physical. He’s going to have to finish.

  52. stratomatic

    I should add that I haven’t given up hope on Gallo becoming a much better player. It’s just that so far I don’t see nearly as much progress as I hoped for.

    On the flip side I think Chandler gets unfairly ridiculed by fans.

    He may make you want to bang your head against a wall a few times a game with his shot selection, but he’s showing clear progress in his efficiency, usuage, shot blocking, and getting to the FT line. He’s also rebounding better, though it’s hard to tell how much of that is related to playing more PF and less SG.

    He’s clearly the better and more versatile defender than Gallo. He can give the team quality “D” at the SG, SF, or PF depending the matchups.

    Finally, it’s very easy to picture him getting better on offense quickly. All he’d have to do is limit his 3 pointers and other long jumpers to late in the shot clock situations and when he’s wide open from one of his better spots on the floor and his TS% would rise several points. If the Knicks had any other coach he probably would already be doing that, but D’Antoni gives his player enormous freedom. With that freedom comes a much longer learning curve for shot selection among the young players.

  53. Frank

    I agree completely about Chandler – sure he throws up about 1-2 more 3’s/game than he should, and sure he doesn’t draw fouls as much as you think he should — but he really is a plus defender at the 2 and 3, and is showing that he can guard some 4’s effectively. Last year he also guarded some 1’s acceptably well. He’s blocking shots at a ridiculous rate for a SF (2.9 blocks/48) which is far and away the best rate for SF’s in the league. And as much as we all complain about his shot selection, his TS has gone 48->51->53->55 in his career all while his usage has gone up from 19.2 ->23.2.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chandwi01.html

    I think in his current incarnation he’s a perfect 6th man – versatile enough to be a primary scorer on a 2nd unit and guard 3-4 positions on the floor. If he can improve his 3 point shooting (decrease attempts, increase accuracy) he’d be a great 2nd-3rd scoring option on the 1st unit after Amare +/- Gallo/Felton.

  54. rama

    stratomatic: He’s a slightly below average rebounder for the SF position. He has actually also played more PF this year. So if anything he should be rebounding better. But his rebounding is down a little.   (Quote)

    I don’t think Gallo has been used for one minute at the 4 this year. Where do you get that information? When Amare moves to the 5, typically Chandler is in…playing the 4. Gallo has been exclusively a 3 all year. So his rebounding is about average.

    stratomatic: He’s also a below average playmaker relative to the position and IMO a below average defender (though that’s harder to measure). As much as it pains me to say this, his only real value comes from his above average scoring efficiency and low turnovers.  (Quote)

    His defense is underrated. What 3 went off vs. us this year, besides Prince? We’ve been dominated by some 5s, some 4s, a few 2s, and lots of 1s, but only one 3. And you say his scoring efficiency is his only plus, but that’s the only real requirement from him…

  55. d-mar

    Frank: I agree completely about Chandler – sure he throws up about 1-2 more 3?s/game than he should, and sure he doesn’t draw fouls as much as you think he should — but he really is a plus defender at the 2 and 3, and is showing that he can guard some 4?s effectively.Last year he also guarded some 1?s acceptably well.He’s blocking shots at a ridiculous rate for a SF (2.9 blocks/48) which is far and away the best rate for SF’s in the league. And as much as we all complain about his shot selection, his TS has gone 48->51->53->55 in his career all while his usage has gone up from 19.2 ->23.2.http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chandwi01.htmlI think in his current incarnation he’s a perfect 6th man – versatile enough to be a primary scorer on a 2nd unit and guard 3-4 positions on the floor.If he can improve his 3 point shooting (decrease attempts, increase accuracy) he’d be a great 2nd-3rd scoring option on the 1st unit after Amare +/- Gallo/Felton.  

    Chandler has had some truly spectacular blocks this year, and there aren’t many guys who play the 3 who can do that (except maybe Josh Smith) I haven’t checked the stats lately, but I don’t think his 3 pt. % in the last few games has been that bad. If he’s open and shoots them in rhythm and not with 20 sec. on the shot clock, I don’t have a big problem with him taking 3-5 a game.

    BTW, I actually thought I saw him smile in a recent game, but he was wincing from banging the rim with his hand. Never heard an announcer say: “Chandler really has to get control of his emotions”

  56. ess-dog

    stratomatic:
    He’s clearly the better and more versatile defender than Gallo. He can give the team quality “D” at the SG, SF, or PF depending the matchups.
      

    I’m not sure he’s a better defender and I’m not even sure more versatile. Yes he blocks more shots, but Gallo’s a pretty stout defender – he also guarded 1’s and 2’s last year at times.
    We are mostly being killed by pf’s this year and that’s on Stoudemire and/or Chandler. I think Chandler is ideal guarding the 3 and is mismatched at times at the 4 (but of course, it’s often a mismatch on the other end as well.)
    I think people here, including yours truly have given Chandler his due after he started laying off the three-ball, but his eFG is pretty much the same as last year. Thanks to more free throws, his TS is pretty close to 55 – a Josh Smith like # that we can all live with.
    I agree that he’s an ideal 6th man that plays both ways above average, but Gallo is a year younger and has a lot going for him as well.

  57. Robert Silverman

    Brian Cronin: 102/105, but I call BS because I was typing Van Horn in repeatedly and it wouldn’t count it!  

    I got 103 and had the same effing problem w/Van Horn. I also missed on the 2001 starting center, who I was sure, mean SURE was Luc Longley – but clearly wasn’t

  58. nicos

    Gallo is a decent man defender- not quite as good as Chandler IMO but not that much worse (though for the record, he had to be switched off Beasley in the Minnesota game as well as Prince). However, he is a poor help defender and a very poor defender in transition (though he’s been a bit better there in recent games) so I’m not sure I’d say his defense is underrated. As for his offense- yes he’s good now and should get better but I do wonder if if he’d have anywhere near the same efficiency if he was the first option on offense rather than the third as he is now. Do you really think his TS% would be 60 if teams gave him the same defensive attention as they give Amar’e? Right now he’s a pretty average SF- very efficient scoring but slightly below average rebounding, slightly below average defense, and way below average playmaking. I do think he has the talent the potential to be a legitimate all-star but he’s still got a ways to go.

  59. jaylamerique

    ess-dog:
    I’m not sure he’s a better defender and I’m not even sure more versatile.Yes he blocks more shots, but Gallo’s a pretty stout defender – he also guarded 1?s and 2?s last year attimes.
    We are mostly being killed by pf’s this year and that’s on Stoudemire and/or Chandler.I think Chandler is ideal guarding the 3 and is mismatched at times at the 4 (but of course, it’s often a mismatch on the other end as well.)
    I think people here, including yours truly have given Chandler his due after he started laying off the three-ball, but his eFG is pretty much the same as last year.Thanks to more free throws, his TS is pretty close to 55 – a Josh Smith like # that we can all live with.
    I agree that he’s an ideal 6th man that plays both ways above average, but Gallo is a year younger and has a lot going for him as well.  

    wow, you honestly dont think chandler is the better defender or more versatile?. i dont remember the last 1 gallo guard that he wasn’t switched on to in a p-n-r.. Chandler has guarded 2,3, and 4s this year. i think he’ll probably spend some time on CP3 in tomorrows game. Also you cant criticize chandlers efg when its higher then gallo’s. the only gallos ts is so higher is because he’s been getting to line at a high rate. Gallo needs to be criticized more. there is no reason why his usage should have gone down this year. He needs to be more assertive when he is out there.

  60. Ben R

    I think people are expecting too much from Gallo at this point. So far this year he has been a very very efficient offensive player (especially when you consider his very low turnovers) while actually stuggling from 3 for multiple game stretches at a time. The fact he is shooting a career low from 3pt% and is still at almost 60% TS% is a huge step forward for him. Imagine how efficient he will be once his 3pt shot gets completely back on track.

    I think the criticisms of his rebounding, defense and playmaking are all overstated. He is about average at all three, sure it would be nice if he was also great at those things but lets be happy with what we have. The only real problem I have with his game at this point is how he vanishes, but he is 22 and almost 17 points per 36 while being the third and sometimes fourth option is not bad. I would love for his usage to increase, but not at the expense of efficiency, plus I would love for his rebounding, defense and playmaking to improve, the usage, defense and playmaking should get better, the rebounding probably not. He is very young, barely (two months) older than Fields.

    Overall he is a very valuable 3-4 option and is still improving. As for the free throw thing I do not understand why people think players shoot less free throws in the playoffs. They do not. He is not simply flopping, he has a very good headfake and his awkward drives are hard for the defense to predict, so I think as long as he stays aggressive, getting to the free throw line should continue to be a strength.

  61. Nick C.

    Ben … in a way you made the case for why people are down on Gallo. “Overall he is a very valuable 3-4 option” Is that really what you would want for someone who was talked about as a centerpiece or untradeable and who is not much more than average at anything else?

  62. ess-dog

    jaylamerique:
    Chandler has guarded 2,3, and 4s this year.

    Lots of people have guarded lots of people – there is a lot of switching when using man defense in the NBA. You can say that Ray has guarded 1s, 2s and 3s this year. I’m saying that Chandler does his best defensive work against 3s and smaller 4s. He got lit up by Ray Allen last year as well as other 2s and he’s had some trouble with 4s this year. He has really improved his timing on blocks though which I like a lot.

    jaylamerique:
    i think he’ll probably spend some time on CP3 in tomorrows game.

    Doubtful.

    jaylamerique:
    Also you cant criticize chandlers efg when its higher then gallo’s.

    Sure you can. Most of the shots Gallo takes are from an area where if you hit 40%, you are one of the best in the league. He’s taken 52% of his shots from three. Chandler takes (or should take) most of his shots in the paint where if you hit 60%, you are one of the best in the league. Only 32% of Chandler’s shots have been from three. See what I’m sayin? Gallo’s FT shooting helps too.

    jaylamerique:
    Gallo needs to be criticized more.

    I’m not sure why. I think we all have a pretty good read on him. He’s a 22 year old 3rd or 4th option on an above average team and he’s still learning the game. He’s a good shooter and is about average at everything else. Hopefully he’ll improve like all our young players. If you really want to criticize him, take him to task for not shooting as well as he’s capable of shooting.

  63. Ben R

    Nick C – Gallo is 22, what do you expect him to be. He is not a centerpiece. He doesn’t need to be we have one already in Amare. He is a perfect sidekick to a centerpeice. I would trade Gallo in a second if it got a better player on a similar contract at a similar age. I have never thought of him as untouchable. No player is ever untradable in my opinion, unless they are the best player in the league.

    Right now no on this team is a pure number two option, instead we have three players, Gallo, Felton and Chandler who all step up on any given night and fill that role. It works well.

    I fully expect Gallo’s game to keep improving and filling out. So far this year he has added getting to the free throw line and has hit them at a much better rate than previous years, he is also running the break better. His shot has been off yet he is still putting up an almost 60% TS%, that is amazing.

    So far this year Chandler has been playing very well, I love what he has been doing, why can’t we be happy we have two players who have expanded and improved their games rather than tear them apart comparing them.

  64. Nick C.

    I’m not comparign Gallo to Chandler but to the league average. I understand he gets to the line more but please I had to read enough of that “he’s only XYZ age” regarding Curry and Crawford back when they were there and that was the first line of defense thrown out by their defenders, so I don’t buy it this isn’t baseball. Yes he can and should improve (ie: David Lee) but maybe I just had higher hopes and should have adjusted my sights accordingly to begin with.

  65. ess-dog

    Nick C.,
    Curry/Crawford comparisons just ain’t cool. Crawford was never good (until last year) and came to the Knicks at age 24. Curry’s best year was his last one with the Bulls. It was a slightly above average year at age 22 in terms of scoring. But he was pretty lame in every other respect and Gallo is already a much better player at the same age.
    It’s the Zeke viewpoint vs. the Walsh viewpoint. The high usage scorer vs. the good all around player.
    At the end of this year, if Gallo hasn’t improved in most categories (barring injury), then I will start to become concerned that he may only be a good role player and not an all-star.

  66. Nick C.

    Oh I know sometimes you have to go low to try to make your point, which is I don’t like age excuse/explanation. No doubt I am happy that we are moving far far away from the Zeke mentality. Zeke wouldbe looking into Baron Davis or Arenas right about now and Fields would be getting no time at all.

  67. Ben R

    Nick – I only throw the age thing out there because he should improve, most young players do, what they don’t do usually is change. We were wanting Crawford and Curry to improve in ways that would change them as a player. Gallo is what he is, a great outside shooter, who can get to the line, rarely turns the ball over and is average at everything else. I can hope/believe he will improve but if he does improve he will just be a better version of himself. I by no means expect him to transform into a great finisher at the rim that is pulling down 8 rebounds a game and swatting shots left and right.

    Some people were hoping Curry would all of a sudden be a rebounder or a low turnover player, those things might have improved but even in the best case they were always going to be huge weaknesses. Gallo has no glaring deficiencies in his game so we don’t need him to hugely improve anywhere, just maybe get incrementally better.

    Even if he is never more than the player he is now, a 60% TS% medium usage SF he is still a very good player and a starter in this league. I still believe he will one day go to an all-star game or two and be o0ne of those fringe all-star players, I don’t expect much more but thats still quite good.

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