Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Monday, September 1, 2014

Knicks 109, Warriors 105

Golden State Warriors 105 FinalRecap | Box Score 109 New York Knicks
Carmelo Anthony, SF 40 MIN | 10-26 FG | 13-15 FT | 1 REB | 8 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 35 PTS | +11If you’re in the “Melo needs to be our primary creator” camp, this may have been your favorite performance by him in some time. On a night when the jumpers were (mostly) not falling, he broke down the defense off the dribble, got to the line a ton, and mixed in some filthy post moves and breathtaking passes. Bullied smaller guys, went around slower guys, drove with his head up ready to see cutting teammates, hit a gorgeous baseline fadeaway to make it a two-possession game in the final minute. Solid defensive effort as well. Good marks all around and only a cold night on jumpers kept it from being a singularly great performance.
Tyson Chandler, C 42 MIN | 5-9 FG | 6-7 FT | 28 REB | 1 AST | 2 STL | 1 BLK | 0 TO | 16 PTS | +8Speaking of singularly great performances, everything we love about Tyson Chandler was on display tonight. A smash here, a swat there, screens and cuts aplenty and, my goodness, the rebounding. He hit double digits in the games first 7 minutes and didn’t look back, completely controlling the glass and, by extension, the game at both ends. Lost in the confusion generated by the Stephen Curry Pain Tornado was the fact that the rest of the Warriors offense was actually pretty brutal — Curry had 54 points on 35 possessions used (154 O-Rating, not so bad) while the rest of the team had 51 on 59 (86 O-Rating). Chandler’s switching, contesting, and ball-hawking was a major factor there. If the rest of the Warriors offense had been even mediocre, Curry’s night for the ages would have stood up. Chandler was the biggest reason it didn’t.
Jason Kidd, PG 19 MIN | 0-4 FG | 0-0 FT | 2 REB | 1 AST | 0 STL | 1 BLK | 0 TO | 0 PTS | +2Read all about Kidd’s performance here.
Raymond Felton, PG 39 MIN | 3-10 FG | 2-6 FT | 4 REB | 4 AST | 4 STL | 1 BLK | 2 TO | 10 PTS | +11Shot poorly and ceded the evening’s playmaking responsibilities to Carmelo Anthony so in terms of offensive value, not so much. On the other end, was the main culprit in the stunning amount of space that Curry continued to have on pull-up threes, even as he registered heat check readings a couple degrees north of “Fires of Mount Doom.” Why did he play 39 minutes when he wasn’t being utilized in the offense and was overmatched in his attempt to check the Warriors sole offensive threat tonight? That’s a great question. But just at the moment when his matchup on Curry seemed most likely to give the game away, he came up with a vicious block on a long jumper and then a game-icing steal in the dying seconds. Waddle waddle. Woof woof.
Iman Shumpert, PG 22 MIN | 1-6 FG | 0-0 FT | 0 REB | 2 AST | 6 STL | 0 BLK | 3 TO | 2 PTS | +12Had some very clean looks on jumpers tonight and didn’t even come close to knocking them down. His dribble penetration looked good but his inability to finish confidently (aside from a nice roll off a pretty Eurostep on his lone make of the evening) rendered it largely moot. Now shooting 19% in his last 5 games and in real danger of dropping below 30% on the season. Needs to be put in position to be an impact defender to have value because he’s a weight around the neck of the offense right now.
Amar’e Stoudemire, PF 20 MIN | 6-7 FG | 2-2 FT | 4 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 14 PTS | -4Another night with a great FG% and a bad +/-. In isolated games that’s a pretty meaningless statistic but as a trend it certainly suggests some measure of defensive liability, an inference supported by the eye test on this night. Still, I’d say a little more good than bad for STAT.
Kenyon Martin, PF 5 MIN | 0-0 FG | 0-0 FT | 0 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 0 PTS | -10A 5 trillion with a -10 for K-Mart in his Knick debut. Actually liked what I saw from him on defense — he may prove our only option that combines iron in the low post with any kind of mobility, although that distinction likely says more about our motley crew of frontcourtsmen than about Kenyon himself. Let’s go with a cautiously optimistic B- here. I’m interested in seeing more.
Steve Novak, SF 9 MIN | 0-4 FG | 3-3 FT | 1 REB | 1 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 3 PTS | -7Hey look it’s like we always say about Novak, he can’t make any outside shots but you know he’ll always get to the line.Please stop getting beat on defense and then compounding the error with horribly lazy-looking recovery fouls.
Pablo Prigioni, PG 9 MIN | 1-2 FG | 0-0 FT | 1 REB | 1 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 3 PTS | -7Played a little at the two tonight and hit an open three. I’d imagine that even the most ardent Felton supporters would have a hard time justifying the 80/20 split in minutes between he and Prigs.
J.R. Smith, SG 35 MIN | 10-19 FG | 0-0 FT | 5 REB | 1 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 26 PTS | +4As well as Melo played and as much as Chandler dominated the paint, Hurlin’ Earl brought this thing home. Shot 6 of 11 from deep on a night when the rest of the team (5 for 23) couldn’t establish much of an outside presence, had two late go-ahead makes, and turned it over only once on 21 used possessions in 35 minutes. Long live Good J.R.
James White, SG 1 MIN | 0-0 FG | 0-0 FT | 0 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 0 PTS | 0The only noticeable thing he did was decline to put up a full-court heave at the end of the first quarter, presumably to protect his Field Goal Percentage. Pro tip, Flight: that’s gonna be the best look you get a lot of nights. Don’t be that guy.
Chris Copeland, SF DNP COACH’S DECISION MIN | FG | FT | REB | AST | STL | BLK | TO | PTS | There was a role for him tonight. Didn’t love the DNP.
Mike WoodsonI don’t think there was much we could have done about Curry tonight but he really did have a lot of space on too many of those pull-up threes. It’s not like it should have been a surprise after about a quarter and a half of this one. I know he doesn’t like to cross-match but Curry is a particularly bad matchup for Felton and if the worst outcome of using Shump on Curry is that Harrison Barnes might torch us then I’m willing to take my chances at least for a little while. Minute management at the point also wasn’t great. Not a horrible night but if Curry makes one more three and JR misses one, he has some tough questions to answer in the post-game presser.

Four Things We Saw

  1. You basically have to be in open denial at this point to not feel like the Knicks’ postseason is going to end at the hands of a quick ballhandler. It’s nice to think that Shumpert will emerge as a panacea to our defensive woes but Woodson isn’t an idiot and the fact that after 2 months he still won’t use him on a player like Curry might be telling us something about how ready he is. I’m not taking anything away from Steph — he was absolutely sublime and would have gone off against basically any team in the world tonight — but the fact that we just concede that nights like this are the cost of doing business is a total bummer. It’s a point guard league and we can’t defend them.
  2. David Lee almost certainly swings this game if he’s not suspended — Golden State had absolutely zero inside presence on offense and were unable to hinder Chandler from controlling the glass on both ends. Given the decisiveness of those two factors, you would think Lee would have been worth at least the 4 point that made up the margin.
  3. It’s funny: we usually get a lot of iso-Melo in late game, hero-ball situations but it seems to me that the best time for it is actually right out of the gate. When he starts the game with an obvious mismatch — like he did tonight against Draymond Green or, more notably, a couple of weeks ago against Blake Griffin — a few strong drives and some physical post play can put an opposing player in quick foul trouble. I like iso-Melo early as long as we move away from it once the mismatch is corrected.
  4. Obviously Curry deserves more of a write-up but what is there to say, really? He just made all his shots. It was like Davidson’s Elite 8 run all over again. I watched the game with a Warriors’ fan friend who, about 5 three-pointers into this one, said without a hint of irony, “I’m really happy they chose him over Monta.” Crazy that it was ever a question and seems crazier by the day.

51 comments on “Knicks 109, Warriors 105

  1. Owen

    “I’m really happy they chose him over Monta.” Crazy that it was ever a question and seems crazier by the day.”

    That is crazy.

    Good win. One would like to have blown a team playing without Lee and Bogut out. But more than happy to take it.

    One of the most entertaining Knicks games I have seen in years, non-Lin variety…..

  2. steveoh

    “I’m really happy they chose him over Monta.” Crazy that it was ever a question and seems crazier by the day.”

    I live in San Francisco. It was a debate. People out here just love them some Monta. Don’t get me wrong. They both loved and still love Steph, but it really was a debate if they couldn’t have them both.

    Of course, ask them now, with the Dubs playing as well as they have, and their answers are a whole lot different.

  3. jon abbey

    I know people try their best on the recaps here, and sometimes they’re not bad (and sometimes they’re unreadable), but Seth Rosenthal is just leaps and bounds beyond anyone doing the ones here, sorry to say. just this one sentence tonight wins it for SR:

    “Have you ever seen a figure skater perform a flawless, ethereal routine only to trip over a napping frog on the last jump? ”

    too good.

  4. BigBlueAL

    Games like tonight (and unfortunately many other nights this season) make me actually miss Ward and Childs which is something I never thought would happen. For the most part I hated them and used to always wish the Knicks had better PGs on those teams but they certainly defended their asses off and compared to these Knick guards were all-world defenders. Also they could make 3pters and seemingly always did when they were left open late in a game (especially Childs).

    My God what has this world come to when I start reminiscing about the good old days of having Ward and Childs at PG lol.

  5. BigBlueAL

    jon abbey:
    you were allowed to handcheck then, totally different game on the perimeter now.

    Didnt they stop allowing handchecking after the 1994 season?? The Derek Harper rule?? I mean the game was still alot more physical in the late 90′s than it is now but while they still allowed players to “ride” guys on the perimeter much more than they do now straight up handchecking guys was no longer allowed by that time I dont believe.

    I will say this about Felton tonight, he didnt get discouraged and continued to at least try to defend Curry which of course lead to the big block late in the game. That was one thing that was great to see in Starks who was a very good defender but when guys like MJ or Miller were going off on him he never got demoralized and continued to defend his ass off (or headbutt them lol).

    For me effort is the biggest thing when playing defense (being smart and having common sense helps too). Tonight at least wasnt about lack of effort on D.

  6. jon abbey

    BigBlueAL: Tonight at least wasnt about lack of effort on D.

    Shumpie and Felton had ten steals between them, that’s something to build on at least.

  7. lavor postell

    I just don’t see the negativity about the defense based on this game. The majority of games, especially over the last two months, this would be a legitimate gripe, but Curry was just making everything tonight. Considering that Curry had a shooting night that even Durant is jealous of, I’m happy with the results.

    Imagine if GSW had passed him over and he had dropped to the Knicks. Interesting to think how much different that would have made our rebuilding process. Curry is the best shooter I have ever seen and yes that includes Nash, Durant and Shuttlesworth. A really special player and for me definitely a top-5 pg in the league. Him and Kyrie Irving showdowns could be very fun in the coming years.

  8. Sovereign

    I just watched the nba.com recap. I really wish I would’ve woken up to watch this game, because Curry was shooting NBA2K13 style with the 3pt slider turned up to max. Crazy.

    I am damn glad the Knicks won this one, but I missed one hell of a game it seems…

  9. Robtachi

    Gotta say, Kevin, your logic on #2 is deeply flawed. No way does Curry log the massive usage he did tonight if the Warriors’ 1A option is available on offense in Lee. It completely changes the complexion of the game and frankly, given the way the Knicks had the non-Curry Warriors shooting, it’s much more reasonable conjecture to say they don’t even make it as close a game without his unbelievably high efficiency on atypical high usage.

  10. danvt

    “if Curry makes one more three and JR misses one, he has some tough questions to answer in the post-game presser.”

    How many more could he make? If he doesn’t make a visiting team record number of threes GSW loses by double digits. If Lee plays they probably lose by more because he takes two pointers (and presumably would miss a few). And don’t put the threes on Felton. They were from three and four feet behind the line. Also, Ray was absolutely outstanding in the last two minutes.

  11. Z-man

    Was at the game, amazing! A couple of observations:

    Chandler was a buzz from the beginning of the game…he had 3 rebounds in the first minute. Bravo!

    Forget the TS, STAT had an awful game overall. The +/- was dead on.

    Unsung hero for GS was Landry, he chewed STAT up, especially in the 2Q.

    Unsung observation: Knicks offensive rebounding down the stretch made several 2nd-3rd chance baskets possible and helped them ice the game in the final seconds.

    Shump is definitely improving on D and is taking mostly good shots on O

    The noises at the Garden whenever Curry let loose and then the ball splashed through reminded me of Jordan’s double nickel game, which I also attended. However, the crowd is much more muted in general than it used to be. That’s what happens when you price the diehard NYers out of the market, I guess.

    On the other hand, the eye candy at the Garden is out of control!

  12. d-mar

    Felton has been getting torched by opposing PG’s all year, but this is not the night to criticize. I would venture that Curry would have dropped 50+ on any PG in the NBA last night as hot as he was. He had a few open looks, but there were pull-up three’s in transition, coming off of screens that were basically indefensible.

    And seeing Chandler play that way is incredibly heartening as we get closer and closer to the post-season.

  13. Frank

    Re Shump on Curry – Shump had Curry for a fair amount of the 2nd quarter and Curry baited him into a bunch of shooting fouls. So it’s not like Shump never had a chance on him.

    Honestly, what are you going to do when he’s shooting like that? If you give him a hair of space from anything less than 30 feet (literally – he had 2 3′s from 27 feet, 1 3 from 28 feet), he’s going to bury it. You play up on him and he’s really quick and can get by you. You trap him and he always makes the right pass. I think the C- grade on Felton is pretty tough. I didn’t think it was bad defense as much as transcendent offense.

    btw – for all those people who don’t think there’s a “hot hand” – his last 2 games (one against Indiana, the #1 defense in the league), he’s 32 of 48 from the field, 18-23 from 3 point range, with 92 points on 48 shots. Would be interesting to see what the statistical probabilities are of a stretch like this. My feeling about the hot hand is that no one has figured out how to define it correctly yet for statistical purposes, and that there are probably true “hot hand” streaks for certain players (and not for others). I’ll tell you one thing – there’s definitely a “cold hand” (see: Jason Kidd).

    Back to Shump – I actually thought that aside from some silly fouls, it was his best game yet. I know he only shot 1-6, but everything on offense was aggressive without hesitation. His 3′s were good shots with feet set, and were just a hair off. And 6 steals (even if 1-2 of them were gifts) are still 6 steals. He still looks a little slower than last year in terms of lateral movement, and his timing on his strip attempts isn’t quite there yet, but I think within a few weeks, we’ll see the Shump we came to love last year.

    Re: Amare – Landry just ate him up on the offensive end. That’s a tough matchup for anyone, but Landry is too clever and quick down low for Amare. You get the feeling Amare needs some time with Clyde on D.

  14. Frank

    d-mar: And seeing Chandler play that way is incredibly heartening as we get closer and closer to the post-season.

    The difference between a 100% motivated/take no plays off Chandler and anything less than that is so obvious. He was a man amongst children inside last night. Hopefully Camby and/or K-Mart can give him some much needed rest.

  15. thenamestsam

    Frank: The difference betweena 100% motivated/take no plays off Chandler and anything less than that is so obvious.He was a man amongst children inside last night.Hopefully Camby and/or K-Mart can give him some much needed rest.

    I loved how Tyson played last night, but lets keep in mind that a complete list of available players over 6’8″ for Golden State last night reads like this:

    Andris Biedrins
    Festus Ezili

    And combined they only played 25 minutes. He wasn’t a man among children so much as an NBA caliber big man amongst things that are…not that. I mean they were playing Carl Landry at the 5 with Richard Jefferson and Harrison Barnes at the 4 for long stretches. Tyson should have dominated. Credit to him for doing it because he hasn’t always dominated even in favorable matchups this year, but I think we’re attributing to motivation something that mostly had to do with matchup.

  16. Thomas B.

    jon abbey:

    I know people try their best on the recaps here, and sometimes they’re not bad (and sometimes they’re unreadable), but Seth Rosenthal is just leaps and bounds beyond anyone doing the ones here, sorry to say. just this one sentence tonight wins it for SR:

    “Have you ever seen a figure skater perform a flawless, ethereal routine only to trip over a napping frog on the last jump? ”

    too good.

    Thanks for the constructive feedback. I’m sure we all will try harder to meet your high expectations of us. Thanks for sticking with us.

  17. johnlocke

    Jon – that was mean. Would be nice if your comment was a little more constructive.. like, what he/they could do to be better versus “Seth Rosental is so amazing, you guys don’t come close”

    jon abbey:
    I know people try their best on the recaps here, and sometimes they’re not bad (and sometimes they’re unreadable), but Seth Rosenthal is just leaps and bounds beyond anyone doing the ones here, sorry to say. just this one sentence tonight wins it for SR:

    “Have you ever seen a figure skater perform a flawless, ethereal routine only to trip over a napping frog on the last jump? ”

    too good.

  18. anthony

    Jesus. I have been reading this site for a couple of years now but, i think abbey’s last post was the straw that broke the camel’s back… hear it is: Do us ALL a FAVOUR and STOP READING (AND POSTING!!) ON THIS SITE!

    …and that’ll about do it.

    GO KNICKS!
    :-)

  19. Douglas

    jon abbey:
    I know people try their best on the recaps here, and sometimes they’re not bad (and sometimes they’re unreadable), but Seth Rosenthal is just leaps and bounds beyond anyone doing the ones here, sorry to say. just this one sentence tonight wins it for SR:

    Jon, you know that’s not fair. Even Seth himself wouldn’t agree with you. Sure, I think he’s the most consistently funny basketball blogger out there. I love his comedic voice. But he doesn’t focus on analysis. Jim and Robert do an excellent job here combining game breakdowns with emotion and weird humor. Although Seth makes me LOL a lot, there’s no need to cut down Knickerblogger’s writers to compliment him.

  20. thenamestsam

    I have to wonder would anyone walk into a book signing, walk up to the author and say:

    “Hey I know you try your best on your novels and sometimes they’re not so bad (sometimes they’re unreadable) but Mr. Favorite Author is just leaps and bounds ahead of you when it comes to writing novels, I’m sorry to say. Here, if we flip to page 15 you can see for yourself how much better his writing is than yours.”

    Why do people feel free to act like colossal assholes to people on the internet in a way they never would in real life? I honestly do not understand it.

  21. Douglas

    thenamestsam: Why do people feel free to act like colossal assholes to people on the internet in a way they never would in real life? I honestly do not understand it.

    Something about how the removal of face-to-face interaction takes out empathy.

    I was going to say the anonymity of the internet, but Jon uses his real name lol.

  22. Thomas B.

    anthony:

    Jesus. I have been reading this site for a couple of years now but, i think abbey’s last post was the straw that broke the camel’s back… hear it is: Jon your a goddamn misanthropic asshole. Do us ALL a FAVOUR and STOP READING (AND POSTING!!) ON THIS SITE! Please try and ENJOY LIFE.

    …and that’ll about do it.

    GO KNICKS!
    :-)

    That isn’t called for. jon is just sharing his honest feelings and he wasn’t being mean. He just expressed that we could do a better job of offering the stuff he likes. He offered Seth’s wrk as an example. That is perfectly fine for him to do. He was not abusive. At least I didn’t read him to be. I’ve seen him really lay into people; he didn’t do that today.

  23. johnno

    thenamestsam: Why do people feel free to act like colossal assholes to people on the internet in a way they never would in real life? I honestly do not understand it.

    You are assuming, of course, that people who act like jerks on-line don’t also act like jerks in real life. That might or might not be a valid assumption…

    On another note, I think that the most encouraging moment of the night was Shump’s jump ball. He was jumping against a guy who had about 4 inches on him and he won the tip pretty easily. He might be getting his legs back.

  24. jon abbey

    seriously, I didn’t even name any names there, even though there is one writer here (who pretty much only seems to drop in for recaps these days) who is so self-indulgently unreadable he makes Lena Dunham look like Raymond Chandler (and it’s not my friend Thomas B). there’s nothing constructive I can offer this writer except “for the love of all that is holy, please please please stop.”

    and I am a misanthropic asshole, by the way, it’s a big reason why I figured out a job that allows me to rarely leave home. it’s pretty amusing for someone who never posts here to call me on that, though.

  25. jon abbey

    johnno:
    On another note, I think that the most encouraging moment of the night was Shump’s jump ball.He was jumping against a guy who had about 4 inches on him and he won the tip pretty easily.He might be getting his legs back.

    I think he’s been mostly physically OK since coming back, it’s his decision making and instincts that have been consistently horrendous, on both ends. he is starting to regain his defensive presence now as people have said, but he is still so tentative with everything he does on the offensive end. hopefully that will also begin to change soon, he can still be a major weapon for us this year.

  26. jon abbey

    and I know those recaps are hard to do, and you certainly don’t see me volunteering. but when a writer’s work on a site I frequent consistently strikes me like an endless series of painful paper cuts, periodically I’m going to say something, because that is how I roll, like it or not. I would certainly say it to their face also, if that helps (doubtful).

  27. Count de Pennies

    I suspect I’m not the only regular reader here who never bothers to read the articles (recaps or otherwise) and skips directly to the comments – which are generally excellent and frequently quite entertaining (especially when ruru and THCJ are having a go at one another)

  28. jon abbey

    Count de Pennies:
    I suspect I’m not the only regular reader here who never bothers to read the articles (recaps or otherwise) and skips directly to the comments – which are generally excellent and frequently quite entertaining (especially when ruru and THCJ are having a go at one another)

    me too pretty much, but it’s unfortunate that this is the case, and occasional feedback to this effect may possibly help the situation in the long term.

  29. Thomas B.

    jon abbey:

    he makes Lena Dunham look like Raymond Chandler (and it’s not my friend Thomas B).

    That’s a good line.

    And my take on my own recaps is that I know I’m not all that talented or insightful. I come up with a decent observation from time to time. Maybe a funny joke here and there. I only recap when nobody else can. Honestly, it’s just too much work.

  30. Thomas B.

    Count de Pennies:

    I suspect I’m not the only regular reader here who never bothers to read the articles (recaps or otherwise) and skips directly to the comments – which are generally excellent and frequently quite entertaining (especially when ruru and THCJ are having a go at one another)

    I agree it is comment driven blog. The in-game one-liners are very good.

  31. Douglas

    jon abbey: I think he’s been mostly physically OK since coming back, it’s his decision making and instincts that have been consistently horrendous, on both ends. he is starting to regain his defensive presence now as people have said, but he is still so tentative with everything he does on the offensive end. hopefully that will also begin to change soon, he can still be a major weapon for us this year.

    Lateral movement is one of the last things to come back after ACL surgery. Shump still needs to learn how to chase a guy through screens, but I expect improvements from him.

  32. Kevin McElroy Post author

    jon abbey:
    and I know those recaps are hard to do, and you certainly don’t see me volunteering. but when a writer’s work on a site I frequent consistently strikes me like an endless series of painful paper cuts, periodically I’m going to say something, because that is how I roll, like it or not. I would certainly say it to their face also, if that helps (doubtful).

    Not looking to submit this one to the Pulitzer Committee and I’d probably be best to not engage but for the life of me I can’t figure out what was so offensive (or particularly self-indulgent, though maybe I can be prone to that on occasion? I don’t know.) about this recap. Care to enlighten me?

  33. Donnie Walsh

    Yeah– that’s the weird thing. From Jon’s description, I don’t think he’s even talking about you, Kevin, which makes his “critique” here even stranger.

    (And for the record, I think of all the KB staff, Kevin is the one here who consistently balances basketball insight with excellent writing)

  34. jon abbey

    no, I wasn’t really talking about this one, although there are some things here I strongly disagree with (don’t have the time to go through it right now for specifics, sorry).

    since not naming names seems to be making this harder than naming names, Robert Silverman is the one who consistently makes me see red, as I’ve said here before a few times.

    and yes, a totally valid answer would be “do better yourself or shut the fuck up”, not that that would actually make me shut up. I’d also be OK with being banned by Mike if he thinks I’m overall bad for the community, I mod at multiple sites myself and would certainly understand that (although I do like posting here).

  35. AHouston20

    Kevin McElroy: Not looking to submit this one to the Pulitzer Committee and I’d probably be best to not engage but for the life of me I can’t figure out what was so offensive (or particularly self-indulgent, though maybe I can be prone to that on occasion?I don’t know.) about this recap.Care to enlighten me?

    I’m not sure what exactly Jon didn’t like about your recap Kevin, but I’m pretty sure you are not the writer that he thinks is self-indulgent

  36. jon abbey

    Donnie Walsh:
    Yeah– that’s the weird thing. From Jon’s description, I don’t think he’s even talking about you, Kevin, which makes his “critique” here even stranger.

    it’s no stranger than someone saying “awesome job!”. if we had a more nuanced forum system here as I’ve pushed for for years (and we had briefly), I could put every comment in the precisely appropriate thread. as it is, it was mostly that I loved that Rosenthal line, so I put it here.

  37. Douglas

    jon abbey:
    no, I wasn’t really talking about this one, although there are some things here I strongly disagree with (don’t have the time to go through it right now for specifics, sorry).

    since not naming names seems to be making this harder than naming names, Robert Silverman is the one who consistently makes me see red, as I’ve said here before a few times.

    and yes, a totally valid answer would be “do better yourself or shut the fuck up”, not that that would actually make me shut up. I’d also be OK with being banned by Mike if he thinks I’m overall bad for the community, I mod at multiple sites myself and would certainly understand that (although I do like posting here).

    Shoot, why don’t you give it a shot? I think you’d do a good job.

  38. Kevin McElroy Post author

    I think everyone who writes here has a different style and I think they all work pretty well for the authors who write them. I think Jim and Robert both do absolutely awesome work — turning these things around fast and avoiding having them follow a really repetitive formula is not easy, especially since it’s not like we don’t have other jobs (as you did rightly recognize) and they manage to be consistently clever, insightful, and original. They each have their own voice, I have mine, Seth has his, etc. etc. etc.

    I strongly — STRONGLY — disagree with your take on Robert’s work, I think he’s a tremendous writer with a very good feel for how to capture the unique character of each game stylistically. I think he’s a Knicks lifer who is very well plugged-in to the soul of the franchise and its fanbase. I would bet that most who read the site agree with that.

    It’s fine that you strongly disagree with some of what I wrote (I bet when I come back and re-read this in a few weeks I will too — it’s hard having to go on the record about every single player when realistically there’s no time to do a thorough watching and re-watching of a game before recapping). That’s fine. I also don’t think you saying that you like Seth’s stuff better than ours is out of bounds. He’s a super-talented guy. I think you’ve made some cheap comments in the past and I think some of what you’ve said here is out of line, sure, but it’s also within your rights to speak your mind. I’d only say two things:

    1) Context is important.
    2) There are plenty of people who have different tastes than you.

    Anyway this has sort of spun away from itself. All he was really saying is “this is a great line — why can’t you guys write something this funny?” And it is a great line and it’s totally cool that you think it’s funnier than the fare that you find here.

    Keep calm and carry on.

  39. chrisk06811

    jon abbey:
    I know people try their best on the recaps here, and sometimes they’re not bad (and sometimes they’re unreadable), but Seth Rosenthal is just leaps and bounds beyond anyone doing the ones here, sorry to say. just this one sentence tonight wins it for SR:

    “Have you ever seen a figure skater perform a flawless, ethereal routine only to trip over a napping frog on the last jump? ”

    Oh Yeah??? Well, I don’t know what ethereal means, so I’ll stick with Jim and Robert, thank you very much!

  40. Donnie Walsh

    jon abbey: it’s no stranger than someone saying “awesome job!”. if we had a more nuanced forum system here as I’ve pushed for for years (and we had briefly), I could put every comment in the precisely appropriate thread. as it is, it was mostly that I loved that Rosenthal line, so I put it here.

    That’s fair, and I agree it gives a false sense of achievement if people only write exagerated praise. And, I knew who you were referring to before you named names because I often feel the same way. But I recognize there are people who read this board that love Robert’s writing, and I wouldn’t want him to change anything since there are people who enjoy what he does. Having read here for a long time, I know who I like and who I don’t and I just skip reading the articles I don’t think will be worth my time. Not saying you are wrong to complain, but Kevin’s piece probably isn’t the most productive place to gripe about some other writer.

  41. jon abbey

    thanks, Kevin. it’s true, that was actually me trying not to be obnoxious. :)

    Douglas: Shoot, why don’t you give it a shot? I think you’d do a good job.

    thanks but I don’t have the time or honestly the interest, unfortunately. right now on top of my normal obligations I’m trying to help launch an online music journal (called ‘surround’), the first issue consists of 6 or 7 4000-8000 word pieces that I’ve been working on polishing when I have free time.

  42. jon abbey

    Donnie Walsh: but Kevin’s piece probably isn’t the most productive place to gripe about some other writer.

    I know, but I feel like even more of a dick if I complain about Robert’s writing underneath his every time, especially since I can never make it past a few sentences anymore.

    anyway, I’ve done my periodic complaining, so I’m good for a while now.

  43. max fisher-cohen

    BigBlueAL: Didnt they stop allowing handchecking after the 1994 season??

    The hand-check was abolished in 1994. You were still allowed to make contact with a player facing the basket though as long as you had a bent elbow. That rule was changed in 99/00. You didn’t see the effects of the rule change in a dramatic way though until the D’Antoni Suns burst onto the scene. Still, you could argue that you’d never have seen the Iverson Sixers in the finals or the Adelman Kings as championship threats without those rule changes. Both teams had big jumps in win %s between the lockout season and 99/00.

    Interestingly, the NBA had several rule changes that addressed hand checking BEFORE 1994, the most telling of which is this from 1980/81:

    Officials shall not permit any players to play with any type of hand, arm face, nose, ear, head, or neck jewelry.

  44. johnno

    max fisher-cohen: The hand-check was abolished in 1994. You were still allowed to make contact with a player facing the basket though as long as you had a bent elbow.

    Why in the world are you talking about basketball? Based on this thread, I thought that this was a place where people are supposed to write about whose writing style is best, who’s a jerk, who’s a troll, etc., etc.

  45. Juany8

    Count de Pennies:
    I suspect I’m not the only regular reader here who never bothers to read the articles (recaps or otherwise) and skips directly to the comments – which are generally excellent and frequently quite entertaining (especially when ruru and THCJ are having a go at one another)

    Lol honestly I’m the same way, the recaps especially can be a little self indulgent unless its one of the full written ones that doesn’t assign grades. I really stopped caring much about the recaps when certain players (especially Chandler) just started getting free passes for anything they did wrong and the Melo recap had a whole paragraph devoted to this one play where he didn’t run back on defense because he was bitching to the refs because he’s selfish because…..

    On the other hand, this might be the most intelligent online community I’ve seen on a basketball blog. I tried posting on a Rockets blog recently but it was apparently impossible for them to grasp that TS% isn’t an absolute measure of a player’s offensive value. It’s so difficult to find people to have a nuanced discussion about sports with

  46. Thomas B.

    Maybe Ive slipped into Bizarro World, but I don’t think there was anything wrong with what jon said (even when I thought he was talking about my writing). All the guy said was that there are some styles that don’t work for him. Heck, sometimes I get here start reading and then say “Shit Taco. Really? Is that what I have to read tonight?” I know some people love it, but I cringe the moment i see it. That just aint my cup of tea. But it’s not hurtful to just say “This doesn’t work for me. I like this better.”

    I like Robert’s work because he puts an amazing amount of effort into what he writes. He is very open and personal. This isn’t just a recap for him, it is journal. He uses sports at times as a metaphor for his own life or vice-versa. Okay now my head hurts.

    Anyway, it is okay for people to like other things. And it is okay to say so if you are not being a total tool. jon wasn’t a total tool today.

    jon I know you are really busy with your music industry career but one perk of being a writer here is that you can edit your own posts. I know that to be a feature you’ve long desired.

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