Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Wednesday, July 23, 2014

Knicks 109 Lakers 120

	Pace	Eff	eFG	FT/FG	OREB%	TOr
NYK	93.8	118.8	49.4%	22.2	29.8	12.0
LAL		125.1	57.7%	27.4	32.6	13.6

The first quarter was pretty much all David Lee. He didn’t enter the game until 6:48, but by the end of the quarter he had 9 points. The only shot he missed was blocked by Turiaf, but Lee recoverd and made the second. He made a nice one-handed pass to Zach Randolph who blew the shot. Randolph would later miss a dunk off a nice Lee pass in traffic, costing him two assists. Curry was in foul trouble all night, which gave Lee lots of burn. His second quarter wasn’t as good, on one possession Lee badly missed a jumper. But he still went into the locker room at halftime as the Knicks leading scorer with 15 points. Throughout the night, Lee played the pick & roll exceptionally well. In previous years the Knicks pick & roll consisted of Marbury passing to a jump shooting forward like Keith Van Horn or Kurt Thomas. But Lee ran the high pick & roll with Nate & Crawford and instead of staying on the perimeter, Lee cut to the hoop. Both guards were able to find him the ball of the screen & Lee’s excellent finishing skills led to easy buckets. Of Lee’s 8 baskets on the night, 6 were assisted.

Nate Robinson showed his best & worst during this game. Robinson was torching the Lakers; it seems his outside shooting touch is back. Robinson was 7-15, including 4-7 from downtown. He pushed the ball up court frequently, found his teammates with crisp passes, and even grabbed a few important rebounds. On one possession, Odom and Balkman were fighting for a rebound, until Nate came over and knocked the ball to a teammate. On another Knick miss, Robinson stole a rebound from the Lakers. But Nate let his emotions get to him in the fourth quarter. On a fast break, Robinson was the recipient of a hard foul by Vujacic. (Vujacic was retaliating from a Balkman elbow to the head.) Robinson forced up a bad shot a few possessions later, and was less effective running the offense. Up until this point, Robinson was playing a fantastic game.

The goat of the game was clearly Eddy Curry. Just about every time Curry stepped on the court the Knicks played worse. Curry was -16 in only 16 minutes. Isiah’s biggest mistake was substituting Curry for Lee in the final 4:31. New York was only down by 4 points at the time, and Curry was largely ineffective up to that point. Earlier in the game Curry left his man wide open for an easy dunk. On another defensive play he offered no resistance to a driving Kobe Bryant, but ended up getting called for a careless foul on the play anyway. On offense Curry couldn’t take advantage of a Bynum-less Lakers. So with Curry in for the last minutes of the game, the Lakers go on a 12-5 run, and the game is over.

Although you could blame Isiah Thomas for the move. Thomas seems to fall prey to something that hurts coaches in all sports: playing it safe. The conventional wisdom is to finish the game with your starters, so to Thomas it made sense to bring the “Low Post Charger” back in the game. But this was the wrong player at the wrong time. The Knicks carved out a lead during the middle of the game with defense and efficient play on offense, but in the end Thomas abandoned those things. Looking at the +/- the Knicks were the best with Lee (-1), Jeffries (-2), Collins (-4), and Balkman (-4) on the floor. (No Knick finished with a positive +/-). In other words New York played their best basketball when they had one or two guys that played defense and didn’t hurt the team offensively by giving possessions away. It’s disheartening that Thomas doesn’t understand that his team is best with a mix of players of differing styles. I’m not saying that the Knicks should have gone with that lineup, but having one or two of those players on the floor would have given the Knicks a better chance at winning.

95 comments on “Knicks 109 Lakers 120

  1. Ess-dog

    Again it comes down to Curry and Randolph. Both of them are defensively inept. There is no way we win with those 2 on the team. Period. Even though I like Randolph’s game better than Curry’s, I think he has to go first because he is more desirable and has the big contract, and we will have a lot more flexibility when that money’s off the books. Also, it will allow Lee to start, and Zeke, if he had any nuts, would just nail Curry to the bench until he plays D. Or trade him as well. The only problem is noone trades active big men in this league, so we’ll have to address this in the draft.

  2. Funky

    I’m going to go out on a limb and make a prediction. Maybe this is just wishful thinking, but I really think it will happen-

    Eddy Curry will be traded or bought out in 2008.

    The reason I say this is because every time a guy gets really upset with his situation with Isiah or playing time, the next thing you know, he’s out of New York. For example: Dikembe Mutumbo, Kurt Thomas, Tim Thomas, Jalen Rose, and Steve Francis.

    Right now Eddy Curry’s minutes are becoming drastically reduced and he seems increasingly frustrated. That said, there’s no way we would get anything decent for him. It would be addition by subtraction, for sure. Then maybe we can draft a defensive-minded big.

  3. Artie

    As much as many would like to see that(and frankly I wouldnt….I think he can have a meaningful role here), Isaih doesnt have the onions to do that. It would be an admission that trading for him was a mistake. Isaih is not one to do that..witness his pigheaded refusal to change rotations that dont work.

  4. Ess-dog

    Ok.
    Here’s a 3 way trade I’ve worked out involving us, the Heat, and the Kings (It’s not pretty, but it’s the only semi-realistic trade I can come up with.)
    We send Balkman,and Curry to the Kings. We get Ron Artest from the Kings, and Jason Williams (expiring contract) and Mark Blount from the Heat. The Heat get Mike Bibby and Zach Randolph. The Kings also get Ricky Davis (expiring contract) from the Heat.
    Basically, everyone just trades their malcontents. Maybe we get a 2nd round pick out of it too.
    Artest get’s to come to NYC (if only for a little while), we get rid of Curry AND Randolph. Miami finally gets a real pg and a 2nd option to Wade in Randolph. Sactown gets rid to 2 huge contracts and malcontents…

  5. Spider Cider

    Everyone ready for another fun-filled debacle known as a Knicks basketball game? I know I am. 19-10 in favor of Utah as I type this, with another Mardy Collins start (why?), and 2 turnovers from Fat Eddy (of course).

  6. Spider Cider

    Been meaning to ask this for a while, but can anyone tell me what’s up with Crawford’s taped shoulder? It looks like it was done by some drunken hobo in the Bronx. Don’t the Knicks have a medical staff?

  7. Ray

    Spider…
    what you said about Crawfords shoulder is hilarious. Its looks like a shoulder pad with no Jersey on it. Oh the woes of Eddy Curry…We were saying anything about him last year when he put up those big number. We say what happend? Well the defense is still not there and then we got Zach. Zach doesnt play D either but hes a gifted rebounder. Its kind of a form of defense if you think about it.I woulndt mind seeing Eddy traded and then maybe Jerome and Morris getting some burn. It doesnt really matter at this point and new faces would be exciting. Morris can ball but they are paying him to sit on the bench. Ill be dammned if I was the owner and let that happen and everyone that Im paying hasn’t gotten a chance to improve things. Thanks a lot Dolan.

  8. Ess-dog

    The Knicks look really overmatched in this one- might as well put Chandler and Morris in, see what they’ve got, right?

  9. Spider Cider

    Roshi: That totally makes sense, and I’m actually kind of surprised and mildly embarrassed that I didn’t think of that. I guess it’s cause most NBA players tend to get their ink done in the summer that it didn’t click with me, cause I’ve seen many people I know with similar tape jobs after getting fresh ink.

  10. Ess-dog

    one more point from AK47 and Utah would have 6 players with double figures at the end of the 3rd quarter!!! Awful team D…

  11. Thomas B.

    Frank O.

    I wondered that myself, either way he is were he belongs.

    Hey Fans, Knicks Fan Packs are back! Get four tickets*, four hotdogs, and four soft drinks. Call the Knicks’ box office for details.

    * Sorry kids, the tickets are for a Knicks game. But we have pretty good hotdogs and you could dance on the jumbotron. That’ll be fun right?

  12. Roshi

    Curry played 4 minutes and then decided that the ‘flu’ was bothering him. Balkman was suspended for last game’s flagrant foul.

    For anyone who is watching, why is Mardy Collins playing the 4th quarter instead of Nate? Mardy is so god-awful it makes me want to try out for the team. In a matter of one minute he threw a pass about 8 feet over Lee’s head and shortly thereafter handed the ball to Deron Williams. God he sucks.

  13. nj hoop

    Re: Collins – have you ever seen an NBA guard play with less of a clue than he did tonight? It’s like some high school kid won a contest and was allowed to suit up for one night. It is astounding how bad he is. If Nate wasn’t suffering from the flu, then Isiaih is completely insane to have him in there in the 4th qtr.

  14. Thomas B.

    Roshi,

    Mardy was in because Williams was too much Robinson. It was not Robinson’s fault. Williams has J-Kidd like size at the point and he knows how to use that to his advantage.

    About Mardy: Look on the bright side, Mardy Collins’ 3-8 from the floor brings his season fg% up by .02 points to 25.4%. This may have been Mardy’s best shooting game of the year. And that is so sad I think I’m going to cry.

  15. Thomas B.

    Why is the team not given flu shots at the start of the season? You would think the team would spend $40 per shot to keep the team healthy. At least give shots to the starters, except Q, give him a placebo.

  16. Thomas B.

    John abbey,

    flu shots do protect you from what three Knicks have…the flu. Lord, do you even think before you disagree with me, or is it a relex action?

  17. Thomas B.

    More on Mardy Collins:

    Does anyone recall how higly Collins was rated right before pre-draft camp began his draft year? Two draft sites, nbadraft.com and draftexpress.com each had Mardy in the top ten. Then the predraft camps began and everyone quickly found out that Mardy’s offensive skill was not limited due to Temple’s restrictive sets, it was due to his cluelessness on offense.

    He dropped from a pre camp top ten to a first round bubble.

  18. Caleb

    Is there something wrong with Fred Jones that he can’t play ahead of Mardy?

    I like your trade idea Ess-Dog – great for Sacramento, great for us — dumping Curry & Randolph contracts in one move? Wow!!! (even though I’d say Balkman is as much an impact player as Artest right now)

    6 weeks ago, I’d even have called it realistic…

    But at this point, I don’t think Miami could make the playoffs if they played .750 ball the rest of the way… they’re probably more inclined to just dump salary and hope for lottery balls. but ya never know…

  19. Ess-dog

    yeah, it would be a commitment on Miami’s part to Bibby- they would have to really believe that he’s a top notch pg… cause it’s really them turning J-will and Blount into Bibby which is actually good for them if Bibby works out. Getting rid of that Blount contract would be great for them (how did he get that contract anyway???)
    The key is finding someone who wants Bibby. You could also maybe substitute the Lakers for the Heat. If they lose out on Kidd, they might go for Bibby- he would work well with Phil Jax… they could also dump Kwame, but us giving up Curry for Kwame just seems kind of painful. Or maybe we take Wallace or Hinrich from the Bulls and they get Bibby.

    I think it’s true: Collins is the worst NBA player allowed to have minutes. We were really dominated last night. How did we beat the Jazz in November?

  20. Owen

    We caught them on the fifth night of a four game in five night stretch when we beat them in November I think. Was at that game, the jazz were totally out of sync.

    I saw the first quarter last night, which was awful, headed out, then caught a bit of the third quarter. We closed it to 4 at that point and seemed to have some momentum.

    Randolph was having a great night, kept getting to the foul line. Lee started very slow, but apparently heated up, looking at his line anyway. Third solid game in a row.

    Mardy Collins needs to turn it around quick, or he will be out of the league. He had a nice move against Deron Williams at one point, and one nice jumper, but other than that, pretty sickening…

  21. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    From the put down your crack pipe dept:

    Johnson, the N.B.A. legend and part owner of the Los Angeles Lakers, met with Thomas for about 30 minutes before their teams played Tuesday night. Johnson expressed sympathy and support and made this bold claim about the Knicks: “They’re going to make the playoffs. I think that they’re going to be a tough eight or seven seed, too.”

    Does anyone else think Isiah Thomas has Rasputin-like abilities to affect people?

  22. Nick

    Did Doug Collins put a pox on the last name when he retired because the current batch of Collinses (Mardy, Jason and Jarrod) have to be among the most offensively inept players in the league?

  23. jon abbey

    “flu shots do protect you from what three Knicks have…the flu. ”

    off topic, but they don’t really. flu shots protect you from some strains of the virus, but not all, they usually consist of the previous year’s strains. and also people tend to say they have “the flu” with any bad cold (“flu-like symptoms” and all that). common mistake, but a flu shot isn’t nearly the magic protection that some people seem to think, which is all I said.

    “Lord, do you even think before you disagree with me, or is it a relex action?”

    FWIW, I barely recognize your user name, I just correct mistakes when I see them. I guess you make a lot of them?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flu_shot

  24. Mattyxl

    What does Eddy Curry’s Tattoo say on his chest? is it something like “never give up” if it is thats hilarious and extremely Ironic. I think he should get that removed and have the tattoo “Hey Im 6’11″ and 300 lbs, but I rebound like Im 4’10 80lbs”

    Also I think David Lee reads this message board…He wants to prove all you Lee Lovers right. Hopefully this will keep Lee going.

    David your not that good, your just on a horrible team, and you stunk on family feud, Chris Bosh is much smarter than you.

  25. JVG

    Eddy Curry’s tatoo continues onto his back.

    In full, it says: Never Give Up … Breakfast, Lunch, Dinner, or a late night snack.

  26. Thomas B.

    john abbey,

    “FWIW, I barely recognize your user name, I just correct mistakes when I see them. I guess you make a lot of them?”

    Funny.

    I address the flu, you respond with magic and general health. You made the mistake this time. And your response shows your willingness to further your folly.

    I didn’t say flu shots would have prevented a high ankle sprain. But when three guys on the team have the flu it is reasonable to ask whether they recieved flu shots. Odds are, if you have the flu it is due to your failure to get a shot. If you would just think for a moment before you type….

  27. jon abbey

    “Odds are, if you have the flu it is due to your failure to get a shot. ”

    maybe “odds are” in that direction, but it’s not a sure thing, which is all I’ve said twice now.

    and it’s Jon Abbey, not John, which shows your attention to detail.

  28. jon abbey

    also people are really quick to blame “the flu” for any kind of illness, and often that’s not the case at all, or it’s a stomach flu, which obviously no shot will protect you against.

    Aaron Ross supposedly had “the flu” earlier this week, threw up on the Giants’ plane to Arizona, then it turned out that he swallowed his air sickness pill instead of chewing it like he was supposed to.

  29. jon abbey

    again, sorry for the tangent, but this is something people should be aware of anyway. this is from a few years ago, but pretty interesting:

    “This year’s flu vaccine had little or no effectiveness against influenza-like illnesses, according to a preliminary study released Thursday.

    The study, published by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, looked at workers at Children’s Hospital in Denver, Colorado.

    Of the 1,000 people who got the vaccine before November 1, 149 went on to develop influenza-like illness (14.9 percent). Of the 402 people who did not get the vaccine, 68 got an influenza-like illness (16.9 percent), the study said. ”

    http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/01/15/flu.vaccine/index.html

  30. cwod

    well, jon is right. i saw a documentary on flu shots once. they just make an educated guess on what strains of the virus will pop up in a given year and create the shot based on that. you can still get the flu, even with a flu shot, because there are other strains floating around.

  31. Owen

    David Lee in the 16 games he has played more than 30 minutes. Just did it by hand, so I hope I didn’t muff it….

    89-150 fg, 45-54 ft, 170 rebounds, 223 points, 28 to, 35:30 minutes played, 3-13 record.

    so per game…

    59.33% fg%, 64.26% ts%, 10.6 reb, 13.9 points, 1.75 to.

    With those minutes, the average power forward would score 14.2 points grab 7.4 rebounds and commit 2.1 to. Not sure what the ts% would be, but assuredly considerably lower…

  32. cwod

    i guess the counter argument would be something like this: of course his stats in those games would be great — playing well in a game equals more minutes. in the games when you’re off, you won’t see as much time. however, since isiah is the coach, i’m not sure this kind of thinking ever comes into play.

  33. Nick

    Lee’s numbers are nice but that W-L is pretty bad even for the Knicks. They would be 11-18 when Lee plays less than 30 minutes. With that as your only frame of reference they are better off with him on the bench than they are with Marbury out.

  34. Z

    “Getting rid of that Blount contract would be great for them (how did he get that contract anyway???)”

    Same way as Kenny Thomas– they had a few big games against the Knicks and it’s put their grandchildren’s grandchildren through school.

    “The key is finding someone who wants Bibby. You could also maybe substitute the Lakers for the Heat.”

    Lakers fans hate Bibby (throw back to their little rivalry of yesteryear). Kind of like if we had brought in Tim Hardaway in 2000.

    The team that is most likely to end up with Bibby if he is moved is, you guessed it…

    …the Knicks.

  35. Ben R

    I think we should make a real push to get Calderon this summer. I thik he is going to get offers in the 7-9 million a year range which we cannot match because we are hopelessly over the cap.

    So what I propose is we offer him a max contract. This would price just about everyone out of the picture and then we can force Toronto into a sign and trade for Marbury’s expiring and a first as long as our first isn’t top 3-4 I think it would be a great move.

    Calderon is Nash lite with an over 60% TS%, the highest assist ratio in the league and one of the lowest turnover rates. I would put him in the top 5 point guards in the league with: Nash, Williams, Paul, and Billips. Kidd fell out because his TS% is terrible this year and he looks like he is declining fast.

    The one advantage we have as a team is the ability to overpay. It is about time we overpaid to get a gamechanging player.

    By the way I do not think he stays in Toronto because they are a small market team and already have lots of long term money tied up in Ford, who is untradable, plus long contracts for Bosh, Bargaini, and Kapono.

  36. jon abbey

    “So what I propose is we offer him a max contract. ”

    nice, you have an inside scoop on the cap being repealed this summer?

    to be less snarky, we can’t do that, we can’t offer more than the midcap to anyone. if Toronto wanted to sign him to a huge deal and then trade him to NY, they could do that, but I don’t see why they’d be interested in doing that, although I guess an unprotected 2008 or 2009 number one would be tempting, if they’re really not going to keep him themselves.

  37. Spider Cider

    I would forever hate the Knicks and Bryan Colangelo if they worked out a sign and trade involving Calderon and Marbury. I’m pretty sure Calderon is staying in Toronto. Colangelo knows what he has in Jose, and I’m sure it would take much more than Marbury and draft picks to pry him away. Plus, by all accounts Calderon loves playing in Toronto, and loves the team. That’s one of the nice things about having a GM who has competent and coherent plan.

  38. Spider Cider

    As for this: “By the way I do not think he stays in Toronto because they are a small market team and already have lots of long term money tied up in Ford, who is untradable, plus long contracts for Bosh, Bargaini, and Kapono,” I think that’s rather off-base. Bargnani is still on his rookie deal, and Kapono’s contract isn’t really that big. It’s long, but it’s not a cap killer. Also, Toronto is not a “small market”. It is one of the largest cities in North America, and the Raptors have the rest of the Canadian fans from all over the country following them (obviously not buying tickets, but still buying merch and providing solid TV ratings). Finally, the Raptors are owned by Rogers, which is a huge company, and they have already expressed their willingness to spend money to make the Raptors competitive. That was one of the main selling points that brought Colangelo to Toronto.

    Point being, don’t expect Calderon to go anywhere this summer.

  39. ben bow

    4 step plan to being playoff team.

    1. zach randolf to chicago for ben wallace

    2. dont ever play curry anymore, not at all.

    3. depending on our draft position, draft rose first, gordon second, and beasly third.

    4. use this lineup

    1.nate/jamal
    2.jamal/gordon
    3.gordon/balkman
    4.lee/jeffries
    5.wallace/jeffries

    its a defensive team, with collins, balkman, jeffires, and wallace all at above average D, and nate and jamal are about normal. The offense wouldnt really have any post power, but we just have to develop lee. most of the points would come from nate, gordon, and jamal, who i see as possible 20 points a game each. both nate and jamal can be point guard, and all 3 can be shooting guards . Jeffries wouldn’t play very much, but people dont usually play the whole game, so he would get some time from lee and wallace. i see this team as at least a 500 team in the leastern confrence, and thats good enough for the number 7 seed right now. if the team ended up with the number 3 seed, i actually wouldn’t be surprised. there’s a lot of talent here. orlando really isn’t that great, and i could see us passing them. I personally like erik gordon for this team the most, because i would love to see a 3 guard team, with all of them gettings about 30 or 35 minutes a game, and balkman getting 20, when one of them is sitting. if we had all 3, it would be 3 guys i could imagine scoring 20 points a game from their shooting. personally it would make up for the lack of other shooters. build around gordon, nate, jamal, and lee who hopefully develops a post game, and a shooting game, becoming more then just a rebounder and finisher.

  40. z-man

    Biedrins, Turiak, Millsap…why did I stay up so late this week?!

    Will Channng Frye go for 30 and 20 tomorrow before he winds up with the Nets in a three-team swap for Kidd to Dallas(mulled about on the radio today)?

  41. Spider Cider

    “Biedrins, Turiak, Millsap…why did I stay up so late this week?!”

    I…don’t…understand?

  42. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    “Of the 1,000 people who got the vaccine before November 1, 149 went on to develop influenza-like illness (14.9 percent).”

    I think you meant 10,000 people. Interesting stuff nonetheless. I’ll take the 2% decrease on the getting the flu, especially since uncle corporate pays for it.

  43. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    “i guess the counter argument would be something like this: of course his stats in those games would be great — playing well in a game equals more minutes. in the games when you’re off, you won’t see as much time. however, since isiah is the coach, i’m not sure this kind of thinking ever comes into play.”

    So true, especially after the Laker game. Geez I still can’t believe Isiah put Curry back in the game with 4 minutes to go…

  44. z-man

    Sorry, Spidey, I’m punchy. I thought all those guys had good momentum-changing moments against our bigs; Biedrens getting 26 boards was especially sickening.

  45. nj hoop

    I think z-man was referring to future NBA Hall of Fame locks Andres Biedrins, Rony Turief and Paul Milsap. His point being that scrubs have huge games against the pathetic Knick D. Not to say these guys don;t have value, but we always make them look like All Stars.

    I would add to that list Mike Dunleavy (I know, he’s a starter, but he looked like Bird against us), John Salmons, Luis Scola and a Nate-sized guard who killed us, I think he’s on the Rockets. Oh and of course Mardy Collins, who kills us every time he steps on the court.

  46. Ben R

    All three of those players are quite good. I think Turiaf is a good bench guy and Millsap is one of the best bench players in the league. As for Biedrins I think he is a stud. He is one of the best young big men in the league. I would take him over anyone on the Warriors except maybe Ellis. As for Dunleavy and Salmons they are playing much better than they have in the past and are probably their respective teams best players this year.

    As for the Calderon comment I meant if we let his agent know we would pay him max money it might raise his value higher than anyone else would pay and therefore force a sign and trade scenerio. As for our pick I would trade the #1 pick in this years draft for him (we’re not getting it but that’s how high I regard Calderon), I like Calderon more than Rose or Mayo. It is all just fantasy anyway but its moves like that, that I want Isiah to make. I think Calderon will get offered less than he’s worth and I want us to take advantage of that.

  47. Z

    “I would add to that list Mike Dunleavy (I know, he’s a starter, but he looked like Bird against us), John Salmons, Luis Scola and a Nate-sized guard who killed us, I think he’s on the Rockets.”

    You can also add Daniel Gibson, Willie Green, Reggie Evans, and Kendrick Perkins to the list.

  48. Brian Cronin

    Wow, I can’t believe how vaguely believable a trade of Marbury plus the Knicks’ draft pick for Calderon is.

  49. Ray

    Calderon is not that good. Id never give up my number 1 for him. Give D Rose 2 years and he’ll be blowning right by that dude.

  50. Ben R

    Brian – I do not think it will happen, but I do think there is a really good chance Calderon does not resign with Toronto. I think Calderon will demand a 70-80 million dollar contract and I do not think Toronto does that. Ford is their future and if he is healthy I cannot see them paying two point guards a combined 18-20 million dollars.

    Plus if I was Calderon I would want to go somewhere where I could be the starter and play 35+ minutes a game.

    If Calderon is leaving Toronto and we have a top 8 pick I think an offer of an expiring and that pick for him is pretty fair.

    Now if Ford does not recover or if Toronto decides to pay big money then no I do not think an expiring and a pick is good enough but if he leaves I think it might be.

    As for Rose I would take Calderon over Rose any day of the week. Calderon is in my opinion the best pass first point guard aside from Nash in the entire league.

    This year Calderon is averaging 10 assists and 1.8 turnovers per 36 minutes and for his career he is averaging 8.5 assists and 2.2 turnovers. On top of that he is shooting over 60% ts% and almost 45% from three. I do not think Rose will ever put up numbers like that.

  51. Brian Cronin

    Heck, Ben, you don’t even need to get into whether Rose will be better than Calderon, because the Knicks will very likely not be picking in a spot where Rose will even be available.

    The Knicks’ first round pick is likely to be in the 5-9 spot (of course, they could always move up in the actual lottery itself), well past where Rose will be picked.

    And yeah, definitely the sticking point with Calderon is whether Toronto wants to pay him or not. If they do, he’s theirs. If they don’t want to commit big money to two point guards long term, then it’s a different story, which is where Marbury and a first rounder actually begins to look almost believable. It would knock the Knicks out of their “get under the cap for Lebron” plan, though, but that plan is a bit of a long shot to begin with…

  52. Alec

    “This year Calderon is averaging 10 assists and 1.8 turnovers per 36 minutes and for his career he is averaging 8.5 assists and 2.2 turnovers. On top of that he is shooting over 60% ts% and almost 45% from three. I do not think Rose will ever put up numbers like that.”
    True, Rose may never put up numbers like that. He’ll score 20, average 7 dimes, and 4 boards. He’ll also play better D and put fans back in MSG chairs. I don’t ever see NY embracing a foreigner like that would black guy or white guy. Thats what the city needs.

  53. retropkid

    Zeke’s shown no ability nor interest to evaluate and add foreign-born players to this team (really any of his teams). An argument can be made that the Knicks have been reeling from the Frederic Weis experience and have really missed out on the biggest trend in the league — foreign-talent.

    If our champions go 19-18 from here (and with more road games than home games, even that mediocrity seems unlikely) they can match last year’s stellar W-L record. Can you hear Zeke already:

    “The East got a lot tougher this year, so matching last year’s record is an improvement!”

    Our Spinmeister, er, Coach is probably already working on his litany of excuses and explanations for consistent, abject failure.

  54. Caleb

    I’m a big Calderon fan but, a couple of things to consider…

    he’ll be 27 in September. By the time the Knicks can get serious in 2-3 years, there’s a good chance he’ll be starting to decline. Not a huge deal – that’s still pretty young…

    …but there’s the contract, too. Even if he’s a bargain at $7-8m/per, a rookie contract is an even better deal…

    I’d be thrilled if there were a way to snag Calderon, but I’d rather have a legit #2-4 draft pick . I don’t watch enough college ball this year to say if Rose or Mayo fits that description. I do watch enough to say that if we win the lottery, Mike Beasley looks like an obvious #1. (then we can turn around and trade Lee for Calderon, or dump Zach, or dump Curry, and solve all our problems :)

  55. Frank

    I think it’s unlikely we’ll get a pick high enough to get Rose or Beasley. Haven’t seen much of Eric Gordon but I think we pretty much have enough scorers on this team. OJ Mayo does not inspire a lot of excitement in me — he looks like a classic Isiah player – high TO, inefficient scorer, although I haven’t seen him play more than 1 or 2 games. Even so, I think hoping a rookie 1 year out of high school will change everything for us is sort of unreasonable.

    I’m still convinced that trading Zach for Wallace and then doing our best to sign Artest for MLE is the way to go for both short and long-term. We get a contract that is a year shorter in going from Zach to Wallace, and get a multi-faceted player in Artest for the same we’re paying for JJ1/2. That takes the pressure off to turn Marbury’s expiring into another high-priced bad move — the lineup of Crawford, Artest, Balkman, Wallace, and Curry with Lee, Nate, draft pick, etc. off the bench is perhaps the most realistic and best (IMHO) of all the proposals I’ve seen. All it would take is making a trade that is altogether reasonable for both teams (ZBo-Wallace) and convincing Artest to do what he really wants to do, which is come home to his childhood favorite team.

    By the way, I think it is unlikely that Colangelo will let go of Calderon– he is too smart for that. We could definitely use either Colangelo or Calderon on this team though!

  56. Alec

    Speaking of trade talks, I’m shocked the Knicks are more involved in the Kidd deal. The Knicks get Devin Harris. A good, young PG with a decent contract. We give Zach or Eddy to the Nets, with one of our young guns. Dallas gets Kidd. Not sure how it works out salary cap wise, but its wishful thinking.

    Also, I swear I hope we don’t get Artest. He is good, but I can only imagine how he, Zach, Eddy, and Steph will get along. I want good moral people. I think Devin Harris is that. Also, he is a good defender and a PG. We will need a PG once Steph is off the books.

  57. Caleb

    I was reading yesterday on ESPN that Rose’s draft stock is slipping… not that it means much right now… but it might not be shocking if he’s still there in the mid-lottery.

    btw Frank, I’m not sure I don’t like Balkman better than Artest right now… Ron has become sort of an offensive liability, and he’s not the same rebounder… I guess if I were a contending team, I’d go with Artest… but looking even a year or two ahead, I’d much rather have Balkman (especially since it frees up the MLE for a point guard, perhaps)

  58. Kevin

    Regarding the benefits of a flu shot – you have selection bias. The people who get the shots are the most likely to get the flu.

    The bigger issue is how do the Knicks get more talent. Various trades are proposed, and we can hope in the draft.

    Start with the current team, I think they are underperforming now, but are only a 30 to 35 win team. That will be a pick in the 7 to 12 range, maybe a stud like Amare Stoudamire, maybe another Channing Frye. So absent “divine” intervention, the draft is unlikely to be big help. While I would love one of the top guys, don’t see it happening. Who thought these Knicks would be too good.

    The team is not young so improvement of the existing players will not take the team to the next level. The team is not old, so I don’t expect decline in talent either. Basically, existing team will tread water for a few years. Maybe this core will fall apart just in time for the Jazz to get a top pick.

    While allocation of minutes can help, its not gonna move the needle that much and more likely keep the team in the 30/35 win area.

    Capped out so only get MLE which is a supporting guy – roll player or depth (the Knicks have this covered). Free Agents are out.

    Leaves trades, If you want Calderon, it might cost you Lee for as good as he looks, is only putting up just above league average numbers (if I read the above correctly, Owen will fill in the WOW numbers I’m sure).

    To me the worst part of following the Knicks right now is I see no path for improvement. No realistic way to acquire a potential star. The future is wait a few years and hope to sign LeBron – but why would he be interested and that’s if we still if we have cap room.

  59. nj hoop

    Just to change the topic a little..Watching the Celts-Mavs game last night was like watching a different sport than what we see as Knick fans. No open shots, every shot contested, in your face man to man defense. There’s a reason the Mavs shot 3-21 from downtown, they were rarely open. Compare that to a typical Knick game, where guys go down the lane for uncontested layups and 3 point shooters have time to check the wind velocity before firing away. I know this none of this is news for you guys, but it was really depressing watching 2 teams really get after it and knowing how far we are from that level of competing.

  60. Spider Cider

    I still don’t understand why everyone seems to think Calderon is going anywhere. There has been absolutely no indication from his part that he wants to leave Toronto, especially considering Sam Mitchell just recently stated that upon Ford’s return, he (Ford) will be coming off the bench for the foreseeable future.

  61. Ess-dog

    So true nj hoop. That starts with Curry and Zach. Really it’s unbelieveable that Zeke still has a job.
    As a GM- he was so erroneous bringing in first Curry, then Zach as his big men. And initially, Steph as the “team leader”? We still owe a pick on that one… ridiculous. Jerome James? Jared Jeffries? What has he done right? His draft record is slightly above average, that’s all he’s done (and supposedly, he really had to be talked into picking Lee by his staff.)
    His coaching is putrid? We’ve all seen his foolish late game substitutions, his starters who suck and his bench players who have a “good thing” going from their bench position and why would he want to screw that up by starting them…?
    What an idiot. And who’s game has improved since coming to the Knicks? Lee’s a little bit. Nate. Not Curry. Maybe Crawford a tiny bit on offense, but the team chemisty is still woeful.
    Any defensive minded coach could come in and do much better with the same players (maybe not Curry, but the rest.)
    Player changes might not do any good is all I’m saying…

  62. z-man

    List Kendrick Perkins as another “scrub to stud” story written by the Knicks D.

    I don’t like the Calderon move. We are in the best trading position we have been in years with Expiring Marbury contract, young players and draft picks to offer. This team needs a franchise player that wont be declining for at least 3-4 years. Zach for Wallace straight up makes sense, but I doubt Chicago would bite (Don’t they have two young PFs?)

    I would prefer sitting tight with Lee, Jamal, Nate, Balk, Steph’s contract and draft picks until after the season. Everything else is in play, especially to dump contracts. The young guys are good enough to draw ffans for now.

    I would

  63. Ray

    Thabeet would certainly be a defensive center that can run the floor but do we waste a high pick on him? Hes still a project. Besides Brooke Lopez is rated higher than him I believe. I honestly think D Rose wont be available to us when we select. In defense of his game hes really playing within Caliparis system and playing team ball. You can see what hes made of on the fast break and get a glimpse of the skills. Hes fast like J Kidd coming out of call and get gets to the hoop with that explosive speed. Mayo will continue to get better as we get closer to MArch madness. He actually might be the one available for us with the pick we have. Does anyone know anything about us owing Utah a pick maybe next year?

  64. Funky

    There are a couple centers ranked ahead of him, but Thabeet is head and shoulders above the rest in terms of shot blocking. Hibbert may be just as good defensively, but he has less of a chance for improvement. Besides, we’re not going to be that great anytime soon, so why not draft a project (who is only a project on offense)?

  65. Capt. Merlin

    On a side note to this discussion, it was somewhat befuddling to hear Colin Cowherd group Patrick Ewing among the players who have destroyed the NBA’s image…Sprewell was also named, but that’s a touch more understandable

  66. retropkid

    Calderon is not a guy who makes a difference for the Knicks.

    No trades!!!! Zeke is terrible at trades, enough already!

    !. get out from under the heinous contracts and re-load…

    2…..all with an eye to getting LeBron…until then….

    3. … play the kids, the quicks, be undersized if you have to, so what — play some zone D and run run run….make the games at least somewhat interesting while you lose instead of…

    4. what we have today, plodding big guy, no team D, lousy ball movement… and Zeke, his ethics, his genius, and his headlines.

  67. Frank O.

    Hahn over at Newsday had some interesting observations about Robinson and how it might be wise not to thrust him into the starting role just yet.
    He described how Robinson has been struggling to control his emotions as demands on him have mounted…That there have been times on the bench when Robinson is sitting their steaming and simply not paying attention to what the coaches are telling him.

    He also had several moments on the court where he lost his cool.

    I think this is a valid point, but I disagree with his conclusion.

    I think the only way Robinson learns to maintain composure is to keep him in the game and suffer through enough meltdowns that letting down his peers and a desire to win will give him the ability to control himself in such a way that he uses his emotions to his and the Bricks’ benefit.

    The idea that the Bricks need to get wins right now is a stupid one. This is the time to be patient with the young guys, get them out there, and let them learn how to be starters.

    You don’t learn how to be a starter, when you are playing well, by sitting on the bench.

    He clearly is one of the best if not the best all around player (certainly in the top two among the guards) on the Bricks, even at his size. And if you agree with that conclusion, there is no rational reason to keep him on the bench.

    The Bricks make an investment by paying Robinson. But they need to make a bigger investment in this guy by starting him and living with the errors he makes trusting that he will learn and adjust.

    The fact of the matter is that of the Bricks three best young players – Lee, Balkman and Robinson, all of whom I believe should be starting – Nate is the one who has shown appreciable improvement from last year ’til now. To me, that is the collateral I need, if I’m the coach, to say he is worth the investment of starting him and living with his flaws, trusting that he will learn and mature.

    Hell, Crawford is a more experience player, has great physical talents, and consistently makes the same mistakes over and over again – doesn’t play a lick of defense – and yet the Bricks invest in him (read start).

    It’s time to end this line of thinking about Robinson and recognize his talents and given him a chance to take the next step by starting him.

    The Bricks may lose a few games for his youth, but in the long run, they’ll be a better team with him starting.

    Of all the moves Isiah has made over the years, so many of them bad, this would be one of the smartest investments he could make.

    I believe this would be tantamount to making a trade for a very solid guard, at a very minimal cost.

  68. Ben R

    Another free agent to be I would like to see us persue is Josh Childress. He is another player I do not think will be resigned and I think he would be a great fit on the Knicks. Maybe we can pry him away from Atlanta by taking Claxton’s bad contract.

    Atlanta will probably let him walk because they already have to resign Smith and have Johnson so Childress will never be a starter.

    I really like Childress he is a good defender and has a career ts% of over 60%. I think with him at the two, Balkman at the three and Lee at the four we would have good defense and efficient low usage offense from three of our starters.

    I would much prefer Childress to Artest.

  69. Ben R

    Frank O. – I agree Robinson should be starting this year, so we can see exactly what we have got. Long term though I really like Nate as our sixth man playing 30+ minutes off the bench providing energy, and scoring. I think he could be very similar to Johnson from Isiah’s playing days.

    He is too undersized to be a starting SG and, although his passing is getting better, lacks the mindset to be a starting PG. I think a combo guard off the bench where he can come in and alter the game with his play is the perfect role for him. He could become one of the best if not the best sixth man in the league if he truly embraces that role.

  70. Nick

    I don’t know about any trades. Artest would be a band aid at best and really a typical Isiah move in that he is a player whose reputation exceeds reality. Surprising as it may seem Lee has to stay. He’s the only player who could play 35 mintues for a ocntending team. Nate, Balkman, Chandler and the “extra draft pick” Morris should plya now and play often so we can see what they’ve got. To keep playing the rotation in the manner they do now seems to be a huge vanity project for their fearless leader. The best they can do is to somehow have enough teams finish worse of fso they get an 8 seed. The near long term future will eb much better served having the young guys get real game time experience.

    As for Calderon, I read or heard that Ford was contemplating retirement. My impresion was that it related to the neck injury and spinal stenosis that kept him out two three years ago.

  71. retropkid

    by the way, if we are going to call the Bricks the Bricks — the leading brick layer, by a landslide, is our, er, shooting guard. Jamalfeasance…

  72. Caleb

    I like Childress too — he’s much more efficient on offense than Artest, and at least 5 years younger. I never thought of him as a defender (I live in Atlanta and I do see him a lot), but he’s better than the guys we have now. Still, I think of him more of a complementary guy – he’s only the 4th or 5th best player on a .500 team right now.

    I don’t really understand the debate on Nate – did someone say we should trade him or something?

    Any team that picks Thabeet in the first round will regret it.

    ANd oh yeah, Colin Cowherd is a friggin’ moron – and, I don’t say it lightly, he has a racist bent – he is anti-NBA and loves to pump up the stereotypes.. what a blowhard.

  73. Spider Cider

    Jamalfeasance – classic.

    Nick: Ford was originally contemplating retirement, but he has since resumed practicing in Houston with John Lucas and is scheduled to rejoin the Raptors in the next few weeks, whenever he feels comfortable in doing so. At which point, Sam Mitchell has already stated he will be coming of the bench indefinitely. Either way, Calderon has the starting spot locked up for the time being (which is what I’ve been calling for since the beginning of the season).

  74. jon abbey

    “by the way, if we are going to call the Bricks the Bricks ”

    Bricks only refers to offense (although I guess it could also refer to objects that don’t move on D), I’m personally a fan of Nix, specifically the definition that just means “nothing”.

  75. Renaldo Balkman's Agent

    “I’m personally a fan of Nix”

    Wow– a fan site dedicated to Jeff Nix.

    As the director of scouting for the “Bricks”, Jeff Nix really has done almost “nothing”, courtesy of Isiah trading away away his picks.

    Come to think of it, why aren’t people chanting ‘Fire Jeff Nix!” at games. Presumably he’s the one that scouted these bums before Isiah brought ‘em over.

    Don’t blame Isiah! Don’t blame Dolan! Don’t even blame Dick Helm!

    Blame Jeff Nix!!!

  76. Ess-dog

    Whoa!

    The Memphis Grizzlies will send Pau Gasol and a future second-round pick to the Lakers for Kwame Brown, Javaris Crittenton, the unofficially retired Aaron McKie , the draft rights to Pau Gasol’s brother Marc and future first-round picks in 2008 and 2010, NBA front-office sources told ESPN.com’s Marc Stein.

  77. Ben R

    That seems like a bad trade for the grizzlies. I would think that Gasol is worth more than two projects, two late round picks and expirings.

    There is no one of any real value going out for the Lakers. I would have thought they could have gotten a better deal from the Bulls. Better picks, better young players and slightly worse contracts.

  78. Ess-dog

    Critt’s gonna be good, but didn’t they just get conley? maybe now we can get lowry for curry…

  79. Brian Cronin

    Wow, talk about misreading the market by Memphis.

    They didn’t get a terrible haul, but boy, they could have gotten a whole lot more if they had acted sooner.

    Memphis = Minnesota Twins, I guess.

  80. mason

    not fair, out of all the teams to get another superstar its the lakers. They will compete for rings for years to come since Gasol is only 27!

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