Comments on: Knicks 100, Robertcats 98

By: The Honorable Cock Jowles

The Honorable Cock Jowles — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 02:29:02 +0000

Juany8: You have the responsibility of backing up the claims that everything previously known is wrong, not the other way around. If the established expert opinion is that Chandler is only a good, not amazing, offensive player, you need indisputable proof that he is not.

Your assumption is that "expert opinion" is currently right. And that's dishonesty. There's no fucking proof of that WHATSOEVER.

By: JK47

JK47 — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 00:43:39 +0000

I would think that pretty much any competent NBA point guard could drive to the hole and miss a layup. I don’t think it’s a “skill” really.

By: jon abbey

jon abbey — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 00:23:27 +0000

game thread, please!!

By: jon abbey

jon abbey — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 00:19:19 +0000

Will the Thrill: The passing is done on purpose, the missing is done on accident. Didn’t say everyone is responsible for their own offensive production.

the putting up a shot when you're driving and doubleteamed and your big man is left free is done on purpose, and it's the smart basketball play if you make it or if you miss it in a way that allows your big man to easily get it and put it back. I get that this fundamentally fucks with the way some people see the sport, but that doesn't make it any less obviously true.

By: johnlocke

johnlocke — Thu, 06 Dec 2012 22:45:27 +0000

Raging debate I see as to the value of missed shots, interaction effects and the like — you’d almost think we didn’t have a game against the Heat tonight. Frankly, I think the odds are quite stacked against us, but at the same time I don’t think we have a lot to lose. If we win, however, it would be HUGE and also simultaneous shut up Charles Barkley.

By: Will the Thrill

Will the Thrill — Thu, 06 Dec 2012 22:35:19 +0000

The passing is done on purpose, the missing is done on accident. Didn't say everyone is responsible for their own offensive production.

Juany8: By the way, the logic above means you can’t believe assists are a meaningful thing if everyone is responsible for their own offensive production.

By: Will the Thrill

Will the Thrill — Thu, 06 Dec 2012 22:32:44 +0000

This is what I had a problem with, I don't think this occurs often enough (maybe never) to make an effect. I think that shooting and missing could turn out to be a good basketball play due to another person's work, but before a rebound is grabbed, it is just a poorly executed shot. Whether it happens to help the team is dependent on the rebounder, and the luck of the bounce for the shooter.

Juany8: Almost like these players see Chandler/Howard standing at the basket alone without a clear way to pass it to them before they get a 3 second call, so they just shoot the shot up realizing it won’t hurt the team if they miss.

By: Juany8

Juany8 — Thu, 06 Dec 2012 22:08:11 +0000

By the way, the logic above means you can’t believe assists are a meaningful thing if everyone is responsible for their own offensive production. Saying a point guard created value for getting an assist is essentially saying the point guard deserves credit for making a play that led to a score.

Either you ignore assists all together or you have to remove some of the value of the shot and give it to the guy that got an assist. So when Novak makes an open 3 because his man sagged off to stop the Felton-Chandler pick and roll, those 3 points scored don’t just belong to Novak, they belong in part to Felton (and Chandler too but why make things too complicated)

I do realize that my system would lower the effective value of high efficiency, low usage big men who can offensively rebound, but then that is my goal. I want to redistribute the accumulation of offensive value Berri and co. are attributing to big men and put it back into the guards like it belongs. Then I won’t need some stupid positional adjustment that says Kyle Korver and Kobe Bryant are comparable offensive players but Kyle Korver and Matt Bonner are not. I mean, really!?!?

By: Juany8

Juany8 — Thu, 06 Dec 2012 21:56:53 +0000

Will I don’t get what’s not clear about my point, it’s not that every single shot Kobe takes has some magical ability to be rebounded, it’s that the ones that DID get rebounded are often good enough basketball plays that he shouldn’t be penalized for missing a shot, which is very different from getting credit for creating a shot. Someone that argues that Kobe had the primary responsibility for that shot might be wrong, but penalizing Kobe so you can give big men double credit isn’t the answer.

That’s my main problem, that in a situation where a team scores 2 points without giving the opponent the ball back, there is no functional difference between making the original shot or the shot off the offensive rebound. You don’t get to score extra points for having 2 shots, you just basically get a redo of your original shot (again, from purely a team perspective) I’m just trying to force what’s happening individually to more closely approximate the point differential actually created. The guy that missed the shot didn’t end up hurting the team after all, and the guy who scores on the putback still gets full credit for a score, which is pretty good

By: Brian Cronin

Brian Cronin — Thu, 06 Dec 2012 21:51:54 +0000

I think that there is some sort of weird yin/yang thing where the Knicks are being run pretty well this season so the Yankees, of course, have to see their ownership fall apart. Brian Cashman doesn’t have the authority to make free agent offers?! Doesn’t that sound like something Dolan or Sterling would do?