Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Tuesday, July 29, 2014

Knick Libs: [NBA TEAM] [NUMBER BETWEEN 90-120], KNICKS [LOWER NUMBER]

Play along at home!

This [A PART OF THE DAY], the Knicks suffered a ["Frustrating"/"Embarrassing"] loss at the hands of [NBA TEAM].  A rough start, characterized by [Choose at least three of "Poor shooting," "Lackluster interior defense," "A lack of ball movement," "Inability to protect the defensive glass," "Turnovers and fouls"] saw the Knicks fall behind by [NUMBER BETWEEN 8 AND 25].  The bench provided ["little"/"no]” help, as JR Smith’s performance was ["uneven"/"total dogshit"] and interior muscle was provided by ["nobody"/"absolutely nobody"].

In the ["second"/"third"/"fourth"/"imaginary non-existent"] quarter, Carmelo helped make up some of the deficit through a nice stretch of ["scoring"/"defense""scoring"/"passing""scoring"] but the opponent quickly adjusted and the offense was left banging its head against the proverbial wall.  The Knicks ["ignored"/"possibly have never even heard of"] the pick and roll game and as a result took far too many threes off the bounce and contested long twos.  This came as a surprise to ["Only James Dolan"/"Probably not even James Dolan"].

[NAME OF MARGINAL PLAYER ON THE OTHER TEAM] had a career night despite the fact that he had previously shown little ability to ["Carry a team on his back"/"Play passably at the NBA level"/"Walk 5 feet without crapping his pants"].  Cole Aldrich and Toure Murry did not play.  Pablo Prigioni played [Pick a number between 0 and 48.  Divide it by 2.] minutes.

This was not an entertaining game to watch.

After this kind of performance, the seat will inevitably get even hotter for ["embattled"/"distraught"/"downright unable to fucking believe this shit"] Knicks coach Mike Woodson, whose stay-the-course mentality was an asset during stretches of last season but who comes off as ["tone deaf"/"abjectly stupid"/"whatever guys, I'm just riding this one out"] with the ["ship taking on so much water" OR SIMILAR OVERLY DRAMATIC NAUTICAL METAPHOR].  It may only be a matter of time before Woodson joins so many coaches and executives before him: out of a job with false rumors about his propensity for [SEX ACT YOU'VE NEVER EVEN HEARD OF] echoing behind him from the corridors of MSG.

[HOWEVER YOU SPELL AN ANGRY PRIMAL SCREAM]!

68 comments on “Knick Libs: [NBA TEAM] [NUMBER BETWEEN 90-120], KNICKS [LOWER NUMBER]

  1. er

    Clyde with the highlight of the evening. ” The Knicks are fattening up the league.” After the crowd got egg mcmuffins for hitting a hundred. lol

  2. EB

    Can we trade franchises? Like send the Knicks and the Chrysler building to San Antonio for the Spurs? I think that’s a fair trade. The empire state building is a little too much and Grand central too little. Maybe we can throw the Brooklyn Nets into the trade as well.

  3. AvonBarksdale

    Melo is whack I’m done with this guy he could be the only one to inspire this team running a few pick and rolls a game that’s it like twice a quarter nothing crazy this team orbits around his pull on the offense whether fair to burden him with that reality or not it’s desperate times we need efficient buckets and more action in the paint to control the tempo pacing of the game on defense also if we knowingly are gonna play half assed defensively and feign effort cause we are too depressed about jr being back on crack and chandler being out and bargs being lost sometimes then how the fuck we gonna stink so bad offensively how many years these guys playing basketball this is them clearly trying to get Woodson fired for whatever reason or they are really so lazy as long as the nets keep losing and supposedly lottery bound teams keep winning we still gon make da playoffs wake me when chandler gets back or jr hits a free throw melo plays the most minutes calls for the ball and is a much better passer than anyone else on the fucking team probably besides Pablo, maybe I dunno we make sucking this bad look so god damned hard its like we suck at being shitty…people are literally winning food we are so bad…lakers look pretty good mda is my entertainment this season I guess with Knicks being my burden

  4. Frank O.

    The Knicks are leaderless, and the strong team dynamic of last year is long gone.
    Melo is the heart of this team. He’s played some very good games. He’s supposed to be this team’s leader. Full stop.
    And this is the problem.
    It’s not news that Melo decided it was necessary at the start of the season to announce his plans to test free agency. It’s also inexplicable.
    Why would Shump, or anyone else be moved by Melo when he’s essentially told the team he’s not firmly with them?
    You can say, ‘oh he’ll sign with the Knicks,’ or, ‘oh, he’ll take more money.’ But the point is that’s not knowable until season’s end.
    This is a guy who bailed on Denver. If I’m on his team, I’m fairly certain I’d take everything he said with a grain of salt.
    Now, I’m certain he’s a good guy. I’m certain he is a very good player and one of the top scorers in the league. I’m certain he’s played harder than his teammates.
    But honestly, if you’re in a relationship and introduce the idea of a break up, and then back off, it becomes the 1000-pound elephant in the room. It doesn’t go away.
    The best thing that can happen is Melo gets traded or he signs a contract soon to dispel any doubt of his intentions. He needs to show maturity and leadership and it must be a gesture like signing a contract. Of course, it’s unlikely to happen. But Melo could change the dynamic by signing a non-max contract, if truly his intention is to take less to help the Knicks secure a better team.
    I believe there is talent enough on this team to win 50 games, but they don’t play together. They don’t appear to be a team that is thinking. They do not appear to be a team that does little things well.
    In the end, if Melo can’t lead, and he can’t under the circumstances he’s created, this team is leaderless. They can’t win without a leader.

  5. f.l.o.

    despite a 3-10 record and the sixth loss in a row i chuckled and smiled reading that recap. thank you!

  6. Frank O.

    Last night’s game turned on a missed layup by MWP and a missed dunk follow by Amare.
    Then slow to get back they give up a jumper to Lillard.
    It could have been six, and then they were down 10.
    A turnover by Shump who dribbled into traffic and made a bad pass. The a Suns three.
    Down 13. Game pretty much done.
    They don’t do little things well. Lots of missed lay up. Lots of untimely TOs. Lots of head hanging and failing to get back on D.
    Well led teams do these things well.

    And without a leader, Woodson loses the team.

  7. MSA

    Being fair, the TOs are not the problem with this team. They are actually one of the best avoiding them.

    I can live with a couple of bonehead plays in the fourth quarter if overall you keep the numbers low.

    The awful defense and lack of ball movement on the other hand…

  8. er

    Frank how does one make a layup or dunk for another player? Or stop them from dribbling into traffic? And you give woody a pass?!? Wow. This is the guy who has not tried zone or tried to put shump on the pg on defense. Nah it’s because they have no leader

  9. pablopilot

    Best recap of the year. I almost hope the Knicks continue to suck, the comic energy coming off this board is worth it.

  10. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Why was everyone arguing with ruruland on the last thread? We’ve known since his second day here that he’s a spin-artist contrarian. Does he know a bit about basketball? Sure, but that doesn’t change the fact that he’s more eager to be a rhetor than an analyst. I’m known as the contrarian idiot on this site, but, hey, looks like I’m playing Nostradumbass all over again. But hell, I didn’t think they’d be this bad! I figured they’d be able to fill in Chandler’s role easily, since he clogs the paint and makes shots harder for his teammates. I guess I was wrong about that, huh?

    Boy, I wish we had set up that bet in escrow, now. I would love to take your ill-spent money, guy.

  11. flossy

    Why was everyone arguing with ruruland on the last thread? We’ve known since his second day here that he’s a spin-artist contrarian. Does he know a bit about basketball? Sure, but that doesn’t change the fact that he’s more eager to be a rhetor than an analyst. I’m known as the contrarian idiot on this site, but, hey, looks like I’m playing Nostradumbass all over again. But hell, I didn’t think they’d be this bad! I figured they’d be able to fill in Chandler’s role easily, since he clogs the paint and makes shots harder for his teammates. I guess I was wrong about that, huh?

    Boy, I wish we had set up that bet in escrow, now. I would love to take your ill-spent money, guy.

    Thank goodness we have you to swoop in and trumpet your delight in the team’s misfortune, by retroactively claiming to have predicted the outcomes caused by freak occurrences like Tyson Chandler’s leg breaking! Gosh, your contribution to the discourse simply cannot be overstated.

    Just a word of advice: whether or not this team would or wouldn’t have been fit to crack 50 wins sort of went out the window once they had to play without their starting PG and center. So unless you predicted the team would be hovering around the Medoza line come December, kindly STFU. Nobody cares how happy you are that the team is bad.

  12. Igno-Bot 3000

    I’m ready to trade Melo if we can package JR with him. Melo has been great this year but I’d rather try to get some kind of value for him. Melo the player deserves to be on a contender. Melo the person deserves to have one of his CAA buddies packaged with him.

    Is there any chance either side would do Melo/JR for Pau/whomever else? Would the Lakers try to roll the dice on a free agent again? I realize they have no draft picks but I think clearing the books and trying to reset the team culture is the top priority. Get rid of Melo and JR, fire Woodson, and get rid of the entire CAA culture on the team. Do you think there’s any chance this was what Dolan was alluding too when he said he was trying new things?

    No way they trade Shump at this point, right? His value’s never been lower.

    I understand this is an overreaction, but I’ve seen this movie before. Let’s just burn the bridges and see what we can get from our assets and who we can get off our books. Do you think there’s more than a 0% chance management does this? I understand some of us were pessimistic, but did anyone see us being this bad?

    Is the game against the Clippers national? Some heads have to roll if they get blown out on national TV, no?

    Again, I understand this is an overreaction. But Melo is playing his tail off (way too many minutes at that), and some team might be willing to roll the dice on him. Look at how bare the East is.

  13. Igno-Bot 3000

    The funny thing is the one team who would be desperate and short-sighted enough to trade for Melo is the one team Dolan would never do a trade with…

  14. flossy

    Get rid of Melo and JR, fire Woodson, and get rid of the entire CAA culture on the team. Do you think there’s any chance this was what Dolan was alluding too when he said he was trying new things?

    Nope!

  15. Frank O.

    Frank how does one make a layup or dunk for another player? Or stop them from dribbling into traffic? And you give woody a pass?!? Wow. This is the guy who has not tried zone or tried to put shump on the pg on defense. Nah it’s because they have no leader.

    ER: You can be as flip as you want. Team leaders call out lax play. Team leaders align with a coach and tighten up a team. The Knicks had two players last season who took on leader roles and they set an intelligence level and discipline that carried over. Even though Kidd and Sheed declined physically, their mental approach to the game carried over.
    If you have ever played organized sports, you understand the importance of leadership. It helps set standards for performance. And, yes, it means mental mistakes are fewer. A missed layup, a missed dunk, failure to run back on defense, all of these are in part a product of a team without leadership.
    In the NBA, successful coaches on every team know they have to win over the leader on the team. Every successful coach has had a team leader who helped them. Hotzman had his Reed. Reilly had his Magic and later Patrick. Phil Jackson had his Jordan, Kobe, etc. Pop has his Duncan. Those players are accountable and committed to the coach and the philosophy.
    Woody was successful last year because Kidd and Sheed bought the vision. JR received pressure from those guys and support from Woodson. Is it any wonder that JR has regressed?
    Ruru was right last year when he spoke to the value of Kidd beyond his play. The team lacks leadership and Woodson, alone, is not succeeding.
    So, yes, Melo is failing as a leader, and it trickles down.

    Example: I went to see the Knicks Wizards tilt. I stayed for the entire game. There were at least three fast break baskets where Melo was hanging back on the other side of the court. The Vesely break away dunk occurred as Melo and Stat were slowly walking back and never cross the center court.
    #Noleader

  16. d-mar

    @13 Well said, Flossy, it really is tiresome, predictable and above all, childish.

    Knicks lose, cue THCJ: “nyah, nyah I’m right, you’re wrong, ha ha”

  17. Frank O.

    I would hate to lose Melo at this point. He has improved as a player.
    But I am becoming swayed by the idea of trading Melo now, getting a lot of value out of him.
    The fact that he is playing well makes him even more valuable, and the Knicks could get a lot of good players and draft picks. Remember what the Knicks gave up for him, and I believe today that on the court, he is a better rounded player than the one that arrive in NY, however much I feel he failed as a leader at the start of the season.
    Maybe he’ll prove me wrong and become the leader he should be this season. Maybe he can overcome his free agency gaff.
    The Knicks could secure some good players, get in better salary cap shape and restock some draft picks.
    As for JR, his contract is now toxic. He is not worth the money he is being paid right now. He plays poorly, shows terrible intelligence and is prone to sulking. Amazing physical talent with a tendency toward self destruction. I want him to succeed.
    So long as his head is screwed up, his value is limited.
    I am aware also that down Chandler and Felton, with a weak headed JR, this team is hamstrung.
    Our guard play is at the bottom half of the NBA. Our front line rebounding is hurting and our interior D is terrible, made worse because mostly our guards are ineffective. AB really isn’t the problem. He is what he is.

    That being said, this team doesn’t always play hard. Last season, they always played hard. Last year, if they got down by 20, we seemed to know they would make a run, tighten down. It’s why they won so many games. These days a 10 point lead seems unsurmountable.
    This season effort isn’t there. That’s not talent; that’s a lack of leadership.

  18. er

    Frank i hear your points and i am not trying to be flip. But i think you are missing the fact that there IS a talent problem on this team. You would agree that Chandler is a leader? If so he is in the same role that Sheed is in. He travels with the team same as Sheed. You mention the Vessely play. That was a three on three where three guys on the Knicks flew to defend 2. I have no idea how Rasheed Wallace or Jason Kidd could have stopped that foolishness. I agree Melo is not a cerebral assassin or a noted speaker or emotional leader. He can be a leader by example. He has shown alot in that aspect and that is all you can ask of him. Not everyone can be J Kidd or Sheed. Kobe is a terrible example that you included in your stable of leaders. Kobe is one of the most selfish players in league history far far more selfish than anything i have ever seen of melo, ie not shooting to make a point in a playoff game. Shaq also was never much of a leader. Those teams won because of TALENT. Its a thing that this team doesn’t have right now. All of the guard positions are suspect. There is 0 rim protection and terrible defensive rotations.

    Woodson is paid to coach and to lead. As i mentioned above, he should try zone and Murry for defense. Shake things up and lead. Melo has to lead by actions. Be crisper on rotations on D, make the right passes etc.

    Im flabbergasted that you feel like he has no hand in this

  19. Hubert

    The Honorable Cock Jowles November 26, 2013 at 7:18 am

    but, hey, looks like I’m playing Nostradumbass all over again.

    In your eagerness to take a bow over and over and over, may I remind you that your 45 wins prediction currently looks every bit as stupid as everyone else’s 55 wins and a 2 seed prediction.

    You weren’t right. None of us were. Except that SCHOENE guy who we all ridiculed.

  20. njasdjdh

    “Just a word of advice: whether or not this team would or wouldn’t have been fit to crack 50 wins sort of went out the window once they had to play without their starting PG and center.”

    Any reasonable projection of the Knicks should have taken into account the fact that Chandler due to age, mileage and personal history, is a huge injury risk. Nothing that is happening to the Knicks is that suprising if you think about it. An injury prone player, Chandler, gets injured. That injury prone player happens to be the backbone of our defense and so his absence cripples any chance we have of stopping anyone on that end. We trade/let go of our best shooters from last year, Novak and Copeland, and acquire an offensive player who eats possessions and loves stationing himself in the mid-range, Bargnani, our spacing/offense goes to hell and Melo’s numbers go down. Our mediocre starting PG who can’t defend anyone misses a few more shots than normal and, as a result, dives off that cliff from mediocre to terrible. Our super streaky 6th man whose shooting/efficiency numbers have dropped off since his prime but had his decline masked by one insane month last year, gets off to a cold start. What part in all of this was surprising? If anything, considering how well Melo has been rebounding and Bargnani has been shooting we should be afraid things aren’t worse than they already are.

    After the upcoming losses to LAC and DEN the schedule eases up some so maybe then we will no longer be in the Bottom 3 of the league (bad time to not have a 1st round pick, huh?)

  21. ephus

    This is not a good time to be a Knick fan.

    I hope that when Chandler returns, the team recovers and starts to play at a 46 win pace. Unfortunately, that would probably make them a 37 win team.

    SCHOENE was right and I was wrong.

  22. Loathing

    You wanna blow up the Knicks n’ start over? Here’s how to do it.
    First:

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=m822srr

    Bargs would be a good fit in Houston, not clogging the lane with DH12 already there and would allow for more spacing. Knicks get bigger, younger and more physical.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=mcwwve5

    Clips get championship experience, Hornets get their young center, Knicks get their new, young scorer.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=lt3kp4e

    Lakers get their man and can re-sign him for more money…that’s never stopped Kupchak before. Grizz are proud of their bigs, and get a third for their 4/5 rotation, and reunite the brothers, while giving up crap bench players they can replace on the cheap. Knicks would get all involved draft picks to make this work.

    For JR Smith n’ STAT…we’ll have to revisit this later…12/15 for STAT n’ 1/15 for Twit.

  23. JK47

    I’m on Team Jowles. I can deal with “I told you so,” when the person who is saying it is 100% right, much easier than I can tolerate a fanboi spin machine who never ceases with the Carmelo Anthony dick-riding.

    This season has converted me into a WoW disciple.

  24. er

    SCHOENE was right and I was wrong.

    You have probably been one of the most even keeled posters on this since i have been here and boy is it needed haha. But may i be a little glass half full/delusional. The schedule eases quite considerably after this trip. To date the Knicks have statistically played either the second hardest or hardest schedule in the league so far. They were third going into last night and now im sure they have moved up. If they are able to steal one of the next two and start to turn around before Tyson comes back things can start to head to above .500 season

  25. er

    I’m on Team Jowles. I can deal with “I told you so,” when the person who is saying it is 100% right, much easier than I can tolerate a fanboi spin machine who never ceases with the Carmelo Anthony dick-riding.

    This season has converted me into a WoW disciple.

    I guess the season is over.

  26. thenamestsam

    lol hes borderline trolling at this point.

    He’s not a fan of the team and he comes here only to make disparaging comments about the team and its fans and tell us all how dumb we were for daring to hope they might be good. That’s the exact definition of how to troll a team message board. There isn’t a borderline thing about it.

    As for the game, they actually played decent for most of the 2nd half, but that and a quarter will get you a pack of gum. I agree with Frank O. that there’s a clear lack of leadership right now, from Woodson on down, and because of that they just seem stuck in a rut. It seems like they need something good to happen to get them going again, but it just isn’t coming at the moment. The amount of slumped shoulders, walking back on D, rolling eyes at teammates, pouting about the refs, negative post-game comments etc. is just terrible right now. I’m not saying it’s all down to that because there are plenty of problems with the actual play (like the fact that at the moment they don’t have a guard on the roster who looks like he should be in an NBA rotation and that I’ve seen groups of people at the YMCA who just met five minutes ago play better team D) but in some ways the mental stuff is more concerning to me in a big picture sense. Tyson is going to come back, Felton is going to come back, JR can’t possibly play this badly all season, and I still think there’s a talented roster in here somewhere (feel free to throw this statement in my face in a few months, I’ll take it). But this team feels like it’s on the verge of falling apart mentally, and if that happens I don’t think it’s going to matter much who comes back from injury.

  27. njasdjdh

    I don’t think Jowles is trolling. He’s pretty clearly a fan of the team frustrated with the way the franchise goes about building. I don’t agree with many of his views on roster construction, but that doesn’t make him a troll.

    Looking at the schedule, I think 7-7 is a reasonable expectation for the next 14 games. That would leave us at 10-17 and Chandler should (hopefully) be back and healthy at that point. If we then play at the pace of a 47 win team over the remaining 55 games that gets us to 42-40 on the year, which be enough to win the Atlantic and lock in a 4 seed or get us a 5-6 seed otherwise. That means a likely 1st round matchup with CHI/ATL/TOR (or BKN if they recover as well). If we escape that, we can then get knocked out by MIA or IND in round 2.

  28. iserp

    You weren’t right. None of us were. Except that SCHOENE guy who we all ridiculed.

    The SCHOENE guy has the Nets at 50 victories, the Pistons at 49, and Portland at 41. So either he is as wrong as the rest of the world, or you will have to wait a little more time before claiming he is right. (And due to small sample size, the second option is the recommended one)

  29. ephus

    I agree with Ruru and Ruru’s trashers about Bargnani. Let me explain the paradox.

    Bargnani is basically what I expected when the Knicks traded for him.

    1. A good, but not transcendent, offensive player who brings more variety than Novak (who was the only player the Knicks gave up for Bargnani). When he sets his feet, he is a good shooter from distance. If defenses close out too hard on him, he can use the pump fake to get himself open for the 18′ shot.

    2. A supremely bad rebounder. It is not just that he does not get into rebounding position. When he is close to the rim, he is bad at blocking out and he is bad at aggressively getting the ball.

    3. A bad defender with one surprising strength. He cannot play in space, he does not move his feet well, he does not protect the rim against penetration, he does not play effective transition defense and he does not rotate well. He has one plus defensive skill – he can play strong on-ball post-up defense.

    4. A bad passer.

    If you put it all together, Bargnani could be a productive piece if limited to playing to his strengths. But circumstances have required (or Woodson has felt they required) that Bargnani play beyond his capabilities. And when used poorly, Bargnani guarantees that the Knicks will not play effective defense, move the ball on offense, get out into transition or defend well against transition. I hope that when Chandler returns, Bargnani is limited to essentially Novak minutes.

  30. JK47

    The Knicks are 29th in the NBA in defensive rating. Ruru, who has an agenda, will not admit that Bargnani is a primary culprit. He says “if you think Bargnani has been bad on defense, you’re full of shit.” What can you say about that? As much as ruru knows about basketball, you can’t take him seriously when he says something like that. It’s transparent spin, and completely dishonest. Claiming that Andrea Bargnani is not a bad defensive player is an outrageous claim; it’s the equivalent of saying “Kanye West is not a narcissist” or “Sarah Palin is an intellectual.”

  31. Kikuchiyo

    Good post, Ephus. Bargs has NOT been the problem. I hated the guy in Toronto. He practically had “I quit” on his forehead. But he’s been the most consistent Knick this season, and he seems ready to play. Unfortunately, he’s consistent in all of the ways you describe, which includes glacial defense. When Chandler is back, I see Bargs as a very important piece if the Knicks are to win any games.

  32. d-mar

    JK, saying that the the Knicks are 29th in the NBA in defensive rating due to Bargnani is just ridiculous. Do you watch the games? Do you see our guards getting blown past possession after possession? Do you see mediocre players like Kemba Walker look like All-Stars against us? Yes, Bargnani is a poor help defender, but once an opposing guard gets by his man and gets into the lane, sure, you can challenge his shot, but any guard worth his salt will dish it to whoever you’re guarding for a dunk. It all starts with our guards’ inability to get over screens and the defense completely breaks down from there.

    We are 3-10 because we’re missing a former DPOY and our guards have completely sucked ass game after game at both ends of the floor.

  33. Bruno Almeida

    Bargnani is terrible on defense, but I dare say he’s not the primary culprit…

    the problem is just how terrible our guards rotation is… nobody seems to talk about it, because there’s always an excuse (he was playing hurt etc), but Raymond Felton is definitely not a starter in this league, and his backups are either totally overmatched on defense or are 36 in a league chock full of great young point guards… the Knicks have, in my humble opinion, the worst or second worst point guard play in the NBA right now, depending on how you feel about Milwaukee or Utah, everybody else has at least a serviceable starter.

    and also, I’m done with Shumpert, just get rid of his ass as fast as possible… ok, there are trade rumours about you and your sad? that’s exactly why you gotta try harder, to prove you still belong… that’s definitely a disappointment… and don’t even get me started on J.R, I HATED the contract and I hate it even more now.

    Melo, a healthy Chandler, K-Mart, Bargnani and MWP should be more than enough to have a decent team if our guards were anything resembling decent.

  34. ephus

    Bargnani would have been an acceptible defender in 1985. Before the illegal defense rules were changed, a center could be stay on the floor if he could play post defense so that his team did not have to double on the catch. There was no need to be good in rotations, because NBA teams did not run PnR action nearly as much. Rather, there was a lot of isolation play and a lot of post-up. Basically, Bargnani is like Bill Lambeer without the nose for the ball on rebounds.

  35. JK47

    Of course the Knicks’ poor defensive rating isn’t solely Bargs’ fault. There are other bad defenders on the team. But come on, overall, Bargs SUCKS on defense, and he averages 6 rebounds per 36 minutes. That is damaging to the team no matter how much people want to pretend it isn’t.

    He’s a terrible front court defender with mediocre offensive efficiency. How in the name of holy living @$&@ is this guy a net positive player?

  36. thenamestsam

    The main culprit isn’t the guards or Bargnani (although both of those are real issues) it’s the guy with the ugly facial hair staring blankly at the court. We don’t have good defensive players, but we aren’t even in the galaxy of making the best of what we have. There isn’t even the barest bones of a defensive philosophy being expressed out there on the court. Sometimes we blitz the pick and roll and sometimes we sag so far off the PG dunks before he gets to the guy guarding the roll man. Sometimes we switch absolutely everything, and then the next play Lillard walks down the middle for a dunk on a pick and pop with LMA because KMart doesn’t want to switch. One time down the court we’re doubling Robin Lopez in the post (!) but late in the game we’re letting LMA go 1 on 1 with Amare for critical baskets. We’re the most disorganized team defensively that I’ve ever seen. Seriously count the number of times per game we end a possession with two or more defensive players looking bewildered at each other as they take the ball out of the net. And these problems have been cropping up for two years now. Woodson is completely incompetent as a defensive coach.

  37. Hubert

    Bruno, Shumpert is playing terribly right now but dumping him now is not the answer. I mean, it is the answer if the question is: “what would a really short-sighted team with no long term focus do if they really wanted to fuck things up?”.

    His play right now is indefensible. So is shipping him out because of it.

  38. ephus

    This is why Beno Udrih should not get playing time. I literally had to watch this gif eight times to figure out what Udrih did here. He literally ran away from Lillard (his man) at the 3 point line because he thought he should switch following a rejected PnR.

  39. er

    hahahahahahahaahahahahaha This team has generated 5 WTF?!?!?!?!?defensive GIFs a game. The funny thing is that he was actually chasing Batum and realized that he was about to run past aldridge so he detoured to him. Wow just wow

  40. DRed

    The main culprit isn’t the guards or
    Bargnani (although both of those are real
    issues) it’s the guy with the ugly facial
    hair staring blankly at the court.

    the losing sucks, but let’s not get carried away. Woodson’s goatee is one of the few good things about this team.

  41. thenamestsam

    the losing sucks, but let’s not get carried away. Woodson’s goatee is one of the few good things about this team.

    Lol, you’re right man. I apologize. I lost my cool there for a minute. The one decent thing about Woodson is the goatee and the shiny head.

  42. Igno-Bot 3000

    Can we trade Melo, Smith, Felton and Woodson to the Lakers for Pau, Nash and D’Antoni?? Then we can remake the 2005 Suns with Nash/Shumpert/Bargnani/STAT/Gasol and have a 7-seed that is at least throughly entertaining whilst keeping that “cap space” for Kevin Love and then trade our entire team for Kyrie Irving, becoming a 54 team in 2018. Progress!

  43. Zanzibar

    How in the name of holy living @$&@ is this guy a net positive player?

    Well he’s been a plus player so far this season in 5-out lineups (not all lineups with Bargs at the 5). I gave you the updated numbers last night: 105 minutes plus and 66 minutes minus in those lineups. In the last 3 games (including last night) Woodson has only gone to a 5-out lineup once and that unit went +3 during that time against the Pacers. Who knows, it may all just be a mirage but it does not inspire confidence in Woodson. The data suggests he should be playing Bargs only in those lineups and then use KMart as the center the rest of the time (e.g., 25mpg AB at center in 5-out and 23mpg KMart at the 5). I’m presuming Aldrich has looked terrible in practice as the reason he’s not playing.

    And Jowles – the way Melo’s been rebounding and shooting lately he may soon be a WoW darling.

  44. AvonBarksdale

    If we aren’t playing Murray or Aldrich we need to cut one of them to pick up Anyone we might actually play. Fucking Ike Diogu or Lou Amundson or Powell whoever someone anyone those two bench spots ain’t helping. As much as I love the idea of amare bargs melo all on the court being awesome together it’s way way way too Late to gamble on them working well defensively it’s insane

  45. Owen

    And Jowles – the way Melo’s been rebounding and shooting lately he may soon be a WoW darling.

    It is interesting how little of a WOW darling Melo is right now despite his stout – and career high – rebounding rate. Everyone always thinks that the metric is driven by rebounding, but that isn’t exactly right. Some of it is his rating getting dinged by our atrocious team defense. But Melo’s percentages have been poor this year. He just is not shooting the ball that well, though he looks amazing relative to the rest of the Knicks. And the production in other areas other than boarding is pretty poor relative to other star players.

    Regarding the constant war between optimists and pessimists, it’s always been this way. Last year was a good one for the optimists. But it’s a tough camp to be in if you root for the Knicks.

    And yeah, saying Bargs plays anything resembling good defense is crazy. Do these people even watch the games or do they just watch it on Synergy?

    ;-)

  46. stratomatic

    Not to take anything away from Melo, who is playing hard, but part of the reason he’s rebounding so well is that Bargnani is rebounding so poorly. The Knicks have no rebounding at all.

  47. Z

    Regarding the constant war between optimists and pessimists, it’s always been this way. Last year was a good one for the optimists. But it’s a tough camp to be in if you root for the Knicks.

    Yup. If you’re not a jaded Knick fan yet, you haven’t been a Knick fan long enough.

    And, frankly, I could care less about the winning or the losing. I’ve been with them during darker days than this. I would happily root for a 3-10 team if they had attractive players and upside. But the only player on the team that offers either is Shumpert, and, well, he doesn’t seem to be showing much upside these days, and when he starts to again, it will probably be for another team.

    (btw, the Knicks are in my hometown tomorrow– a game I used to attend annually (yes, I’d purposefully funnel my Knick$$ to Donald Sterling so that Jim Dolan wouldn’t get any!!), but, alas, I’m gonna let them pass on through… I hope to be back at Staples rooting against the Clips and Lakers soon, though. It’s weird not being a Knick fan!)

  48. stratomatic

    I thought Amare made a good point about ball movement last night. I love Wally and Alan, but they are clearly “Melo apologists”. Part of the reason the rest of the Knicks are shooting so poorly is that most of them are not off the dribble shot creators. They require pick and rolls, kick outs, easy baskets in transition, back door cuts etc… to score well. You don’t get those kinds of easy shots unless you run, move the ball quickly, run set plays etc.. That’s hard to do when the Knicks walk the ball up the court and Melo and JR hold, hold, hold, dribble dribble, dribble before launching up a tough shot or passing to a player that can’t score efficiently from the position he’s getting the ball. The Knicks need to up the pace significantly, move the ball, and run some plays. They need an offensive coordinator like D’Aantoni. Oh yea, given how they are playing defense, D’Antoni would be a huge upgrade in that regard also.

  49. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    I think I actually predicted 41-41, and said that even though I wouldn’t bet money on that figure (49.5 was too easy, though) it was more likely to be south of that than north. Even if Chandler weren’t hurt, there’s no way this team is better than 6-6.

  50. Unreason

    Things are moving in a spiral. It is hard to breathe. I think I can make out a few solid shapes through the clouds of mustard gas:

    1) JR Smith must either be benched for several games or traded. You can’t call it selling low when what you’re selling is the iceberg that’s penetrated the hull of your ship. His performance from last post-season till now is not a slump. It’s a highly effective assault on the Knicks.

    2) Woodson should be replaced. He’s in a tough spot, but he clearly has no answers. The abysmal defense is on him; his lineups, his inability to communicate what he wants to his team or get them to execute it. It is the worst I can remember seeing since teams began playing defense in earnest in the 1980′s.

    3) Anthony is for real. While most the rest of the team has seemed lost or dejected or lame, IMO he has clearly been playing like the potential centerpiece of a contender. He’s pissed; he’s ferocious; he’s effective. With a little help, he’d be a winner. The will to rebound and to keep battling while the rest of the team has sucked viciously, especially over the last few games, has reveled a side of his character I did not suspect.

    Not that I think he’s being overused, but I am taking bets on the exact date that the disorganized pile of inflamed ganglia, cartilage and lymph formerly known as Carmelo Anthony pivots and suddenly loses all cohesion, spreading out across midcourt like a spilled pot of stew. I’m guessing Jan 15th.

  51. Mike Kurylo

    I’m known as the contrarian idiot on this site

    lol hes borderline trolling at this point.

    You know, the second comment is exactly right, THCJ. What is your purpose here? If it’s to engage in intelligent discussion about the Knicks, then you’ve got a host of smart people here ready to listen and be educated. If it’s to be the contrarian idiot that everyone mocks, then you’re doing a great job.

    Seriously in years here, how many people have you gotten to agree with the principles of WOW?

    There’s a psychological principle that says when people become invested in something they’re more likely to stick with it, even if it doesn’t make logical sense. (In for a penny…) So when you’re aggressive and prickly you make others dig their heels in harder. Instead of making people believe in Berri-ism, you’ve made it un-Berriable for them to even consider it. You could be right all day, but if you act the fool so that no one else believes you, you’ve accomplished absolutely nothing.

  52. nyk8806

    i seem to recall THCJ turning introspective and toning things down at one point, I think when l’affaire Abbey hit. I also seem to recall that it lasted about a week before the sun again began to rise from the East. Pseudonymous trolling is the funnest part of the Internets!

  53. BigBlueAL

    Saying Melo is only rebounding this good because he is playing along side Bargs is odd cause I thought your teammates didnt matter in terms of rebounding. I mentioned last season when both Chandler and KMart were out during the 13 game winning streak that Melo could lead the league in rebounding if he played PF next to Cope who was playing C since in that stretch he was averaging like 14 rebs a game. Yet many here like to say your teammates dont influence your rebounding rate.

    Tough to criticize Melo when he “only” averages 7 rebs a game yet when he is really needed to rebound because their best rebounder is out and he averages 10 rebs a game say its only because the rest of his teammates arent good rebounders. Im sounding like ruru now lol.

  54. yellowboy90

    I thought Amare made a good point about ball movement last night. I love Wally and Alan, but they are clearly “Melo apologists”. Part of the reason the rest of the Knicks are shooting so poorly is that most of them are not off the dribble shot creators. They require pick and rolls, kick outs, easy baskets in transition, back door cuts etc… to score well. You don’t get those kinds of easy shots unless you run, move the ball quickly, run set plays etc.. That’s hard to do when the Knicks walk the ball up the court and Melo and JR hold, hold, hold, dribble dribble, dribble before launching up a tough shot or passing to a player that can’t score efficiently from the position he’s getting the ball. The Knicks need to up the pace significantly, move the ball, and run some plays. They need an offensive coordinator like D’Aantoni. Oh yea, given how they are playing defense, D’Antoni would be a huge upgrade in that regard also.

    How does Amar’e call anyone out when he never passes. When was the last time he passed the ball out of the post in 2 years? I do agree Melo, JR, and MWP need to do a better job passing. Melo neds to swing the ball out of the post.

  55. Owen

    “Yet many here like to say your teammates dont influence your rebounding rate.”

    Ahh, that’s a bit strong. I think the correct way to frame the argument of the “many” would be to say that there are diminishing returns in rebounding but they are relatively small. And if you look at the consistency in pace adjusted rebounds per minute it’s over 90% year over year historically. So teammates have a marginal impact. The effect is difficult to measure but probably there, but it’s not huge. And hey, maybe Bargnani sort of breaks the model because he is literally the worst rebounding center since, I don’t know. Someone run a screen for a “center” with a career rebounding rate under 10%.

    It will be interesting to see where Melo’s numbers end up. I don’t know if I see him keeping up this torrid rate.

    And as a retired WOW troll, (though a strong believer in some of the ideas he has been pushing all these years) I will point out that they did revise their model and re-calibrated the value of defensive rebounding somewhat. It’s good to always keep an open mind. What following basketball and especially baseball analytics (hat tip Fangraphs) has shown me is that there are always going to be improvements in how we use data to understand these games we love.

  56. ruruland

    WOW still has Melo listed as a PF, and while Melo has a higher than average rebound rate as a pf, he’d have an extremely high rebound rate as a SF and his WP/48 would go up substantially if he were listed at the position he’s playing.

    Of course, Melo has long been WoW’s whipping boy, a means of popularizing the model, so its not in the models champions best interest to designate Melo as a SF even when that’s what he’s playing.

    I think he’s rebounding about how you’d expect him to with Chandler out. I said he’d have a big spike in rr from last year given new roster construction, though I don’t think it means he’s been a better rebounder.

    I really don’t think he’s contributing more to the defensive glass than he did last year.

    It was pretty obvious he’d be one of the guys scooping up more rebounds with the loss of Kidd, as he’s no longer the guy who’s primary role is to box out bigger players.

    Offensively he’s getting position on the glass because Chandler isn’t taking up space.

    Chandler does help the Knicks generate open 3-point shots out of pick and role, and that’s primarily the way he gets positioning under the basket (with Melo out at the 3-point line).

    Basically it’s all misinformed bullshit.

    As far as moving the ball. The Knicks have tried plenty of that this year.

    You need the dribble penetration for ball movement to work, and there’s a reason Felton had one of the teams highest net offensive ratings last season. When open jump shooting is slumping and your primary dribble penetrator is out, of course Melo is going to isolate. It’s the Knicks best offense.

    That said, I have no fucking idea why the Knicks only run a couple Melo/Amare side pick and rolls a game since they’ve been together.

    It always seems to generate really great shots.

    I like that Amare is playing more. Either he gets back to being a good productive PF or he retires after another injury.

  57. Unreason

    if you look at the consistency in pace adjusted rebounds per minute it’s over 90% year over year historically

    Owen, this is very interesting. What measure of consistency are you referring to? Is it something like the average Pearson r between each player’s pace adjusted rpm in randomly chosen year A and subsequent year B? That would have to be greater than 0.949 to account for more than 90% of the variance. I’m not doubting you, just saying that really would be an astonishing degree of consistency at the season level. It wouldn’t mean that within-season variations don’t occur sometimes in response to the injury of primary rebounders, of course, just that they average out for most players over the course of a season to a remarkable extent. I know you weren’t claiming anything to the contrary. I’m just clarifying the implications re players picking up the slack in Chandler’s absence. Anyhow, thanks for the provocative stat.

  58. stratomatic

    Ruru,

    Generally, WOW catches up and reassigns a player’s position as the season progresses. They also split it if necessary. I’m sure Melo would look better as a SF or SF/PF, but he would’t look high level on that metric either way.

    Typically teams are constructed with players that are reasonably close to average rebounders for their position. Right now, the Knicks have the worst rebounding C in the league. So it’s logical that other players would pick up a few here or there even though typically there’s not much of an impact. The point was not diminish Melo’s effort, but to suggest that his boards are mildly inflated now playing alongside Bargs at either C or PF.

    Dribble penetration does help ball movement. Getting Felton back will help. But walking the ball up the court, holding it for 3-4 seconds while you size up the defense, dribbling ISO for a few seconds and then deciding whether to take a tough shot or pass is not the way to get easy transition baskets, back door cuts, pick and rolls etc… IT’S BAD OFFENSE and the entire league is moving away from that style of play. It is what it is. Melo and JR play a poor style of offense no matter how talented and skilled you might think either is.

  59. stratomatic

    Owen,

    Not only is Bargs a horrid rebounder for a C, he’s bad for a PF and plays out on the perimeter. As long as he’s on the court, IMO there will be a few extra boards up for grabs for his teammates. Like you said, it’s fairly extreme in his case. So I think the norms can be thrown out the window.

    One thing Melo seems to have perfected is getting inside, taking a really tough shot, missing it, and then getting his own rebound and another shot. It’s an interesting statistical issue. His offensive rebounds rise, his PPG rises, but his efficiency falls.

  60. danvt

    The worst part of this whole thing is watching all the ex Knicks thriving in their present situations. Lin, Lee, D’Antoni, Zbo. Walsh is back with IND and they’re killing it. I forget who made the point but it really is true. A bad CEO makes bad decisions about who to hire and every decision from there is suspect. I love Carmelo Anthony, but let’s face it the trade was a disaster. In other words, even when a good decision is made, it’s executed poorly and sloppily. Handing over the 2016 pick for Bargs really gnaws at me. I like Bargnani, but the trade was stupidly done. I love STAT but simply keeping Lee would have been the right thing to do. Letting Novak walk and signing Lin would have been the thing to do. Whiffing on Lawson, whiffing on Rondo, more bad decisions. It’s like, if NYK does it you know it was the wrong decision or some part of the process was flawed. So what do we have? No depth, no picks and no cap space for the next two seasons. The worst part of this isn’t even the present state of affairs. It’s the fact that I have absolutely zero faith that the decision makers at MSG will right the ship.

  61. stratomatic

    One last note. NBATV showed a really interesting stat the other day. It showed the percentage of ISOs for the league in recent years. It has declined every year as more teams move towards faster pace play, better spacing etc… The Knicks were near the top of the league at ISO play.

    Regardless of whether you believe it’s because the Knicks lost all their good shooters and Melo/JR are correctly taking matters into their own hands or because there’s too much holding and dribbling to get a good shot for teammates (both are true) the Knicks have to up the pace to get easier shots and eliminate ISOs which which we know is a horrible way to play basketball.

  62. stratomatic

    Danvt,

    IMO it all comes down to valuing players and picks properly and then fitting the right players together so they can excel within the system the coach is going to use. The Knicks have consistently over valued scoring relative to scoring efficiency, defense, rebounding, high IQ playing etc…. with the exception of the brief period that Walsh and D’Antoni had full control (and even they made a mistake or 2 because of the James pipe dream). But once Walsh lost control during the Melo negotiation, it was back to the old ways. They brought in a very good player, but one that did not fit with the coach/Amare and they dramatically overpaid. Bargs was more of the same. A guy like Dolan does not know enough to even hire competent people.

  63. danvt

    My response to the Jowles’ of the world. As a fan of a team you want to believe. If sports is a forgone conclusion based on past results then why watch? The hope is that something anomalous pops up on the statistics page and it does it in an NYK box score. Something anomalous always does, somewhere. Who thought that, by now, DRose would be gone for the season, DWill would have missed significant time, Chandler, Lopez also. No one predicted BKLYN to be 4-10. Weird shit happens and that’s why we watch. What if Westbrook doesn’t go down in last years playoffs? Now, being a mediocre researcher I can’t even begin to see all the strange, foreign, and hitherto unknown ways that history has Not repeated itself this year.

    My problem with NYK is that there management is supposed to make a smart decision periodically and they seem to always be caught short. They let me down because they should know better than me, but, I’m happy to try to believe. I was really looking forward to Bargnani outplaying his bubblegum card and making all the haters look bad. He’s NYK and that’s who I root for.

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