nicos: On the ball defense isn’t important?I’d say it’s more important than ever.

I was more referencing the fact that the defensive impact of the best smalls is negligible to that of bigs so I’m not sure that gaps in defense between smalls should be viewed as important as gaps in defense between bigs. I was also thinking of this line from Zach Lowe in his analysis of the Curry and Lawson deals today on Grantland, “Curry is a minus defender, but very few point guards can affect the game defensively” as well as Kevin Pelton from Basketball Prospectus/The Pacers recently mentioning that because of the handcheck rules making it nearly impossible to completely contain anyone on the perimeter that elite defense in those positions isn’t as important as it used to be. Again, this is not to say that it doesn’t matter, but just that it doesn’t matter as much as it would when talking about other positions.

njasdjdh: That was an honest question. I’m not sure what your “steals, rebounds and blocks” line is referencing, but, for example, this is what Hollinger has to say:

“Defensively, Westbrook has the talent to be awesome, but in reality is pretty average. Synergy Stats rated him the worst defender on the team and decidedly below the norm for his position; the Thunder weren’t any better or worse with him on the court defensively, and opposing point guards had a 15.7 player efficiency rating against him, according to 82games.com. Westbrook is actually too aggressive for his own good at this end, often running himself out of position and overgambling, offsetting his advantages in size, quickness and athleticism.”

So, if his Synergy, his on/off and his 82games/position numbers weren’t great I was just curious what the evidence for him being a good defender was.

Nice job. I thought you were parroting THCJ, which is to say, there is no way to empirically determine what constitutes good defense outside of you know what…..

The Synergy numbers are surprising. The opp. per is less surprising to me given how frequently Westbrook is the last defender coming back in transition because of how frequently he finds himself in camera row — which is a sin from the pg position to many coaches.

Juany8: Westbrook guarded Dwyane Wade admirably in the Finals. Harden got lit up but both Lebron and Wade. He’s not dominant, but he can guard anyone at both guard positions and is capable of providing strong help on rolling bigs better than most other point guards. Harden is an average defender right now, with the potential to become above average. Westbrook could be the best point guard defender though’

I agree that his defensive potential is immense, I am just waiting for the evidence that he’s tapping into that NOW. As for the Wade point, IIRC, Wade was hurt and didn’t play well for large chunks of last postseason.

ruruland: Any evidence? Is that a joke?

No: steals, rebounds and blocks tell us everything we need to know about defense.

That was an honest question. I’m not sure what your “steals, rebounds and blocks” line is referencing, but, for example, this is what Hollinger has to say:

“Defensively, Westbrook has the talent to be awesome, but in reality is pretty average. Synergy Stats rated him the worst defender on the team and decidedly below the norm for his position; the Thunder weren’t any better or worse with him on the court defensively, and opposing point guards had a 15.7 player efficiency rating against him, according to 82games.com. Westbrook is actually too aggressive for his own good at this end, often running himself out of position and overgambling, offsetting his advantages in size, quickness and athleticism.”

So, if his Synergy, his on/off and his 82games/position numbers weren’t great I was just curious what the evidence for him being a good defender was.

njasdjdh: I agree that defense should be a consideration, however, is there any evidence that Westbrook is a good defender? And, even if Westbrook is a good defender, given his position, his potential impact would seem to be limited.

Westbrook guarded Dwyane Wade admirably in the Finals. Harden got lit up but both Lebron and Wade. He’s not dominant, but he can guard anyone at both guard positions and is capable of providing strong help on rolling bigs better than most other point guards. Harden is an average defender right now, with the potential to become above average. Westbrook could be the best point guard defender though’

The Honorable Cock Jowles: Oh, and you presume that Westbrook got his money because of a legitimate defensive superiority rather than a host of other factors that influence player salary, like points per game. Has that occurred to you? That the very thing we both admit we can’t quantify is the thing you assert as being a significant difference between the two players?

The very thing YOU can’t quantify, I’m sure Presti is more than capable of making judgements about player defense. This has been the smartest gm in the league for several years now, all of the sudden we’re supposed to assume he cares more about flashy players than the small things that lead to winning? Why is it so hard for you to accept that the statistical analysis done in many front offices is light years ahead of what’s freely available online. You’re really going to sit here and say Harden got traded because Presti went nuts over Westbrook’s points per game?

njasdjdh: I agree that defense should be a consideration, however, is there any evidence that Westbrook is a good defender? And, even if Westbrook is a good defender, given his position, his potential impact would seem to be limited.

On the ball defense isn’t important? I’d say it’s more important than ever.

Also on Martin/Harden: I’m not sure anyone has brought up the fact that OKC has two great screeners in Collison and Perkins which should really help Martin. And Harden was at his best in the pnr- who is going to be his partner in Houston? Asik, I’d guess but he’s not ideal- no pick and pop potential and very foul prone so I don’t know if you want to risk him picking up cheap moving screen fouls on the offensive end. I still think Harden will have an excellent year but I wonder if his pnr efficiency might take a hit.
Also

njasdjdh: I agree that defense should be a consideration, however, is there any evidence that Westbrook is a good defender? And, even if Westbrook is a good defender, given his position, his potential impact would seem to be limited.

Any evidence? Is that a joke?

No: steals, rebounds and blocks tell us everything we need to know about defense.

Juany8: It’s funny that you ENTIRELY ignore defense and somehow sit here and pretend you’re being more objective than I am. Has it ever occurred to you that if Harden was half the defender Westbrook is, OKC would have done exactly what you wanted and either maxed Harden or traded Westbrook. If Faried could defend like Taj Gibson, he’d easily be getting 33+ minutes a game.

By ignoring literally half the game (completely ignoring the interaction effects you seem to disdain) players that have trouble getting on the court because of their defensive deficiencies can easily become superstars by your system. Unfortunately, real basketball requires defense, nobody is going to take you seriously if you’re calling major defensive liabilities the best players in the NBA…

I agree that defense should be a consideration, however, is there any evidence that Westbrook is a good defender? And, even if Westbrook is a good defender, given his position, his potential impact would seem to be limited.

Juany8: t

Oh, and you presume that Westbrook got his money because of a legitimate defensive superiority rather than a host of other factors that influence player salary, like points per game. Has that occurred to you? That the very thing we both admit we can’t quantify is the thing you assert as being a significant difference between the two players?