Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Sunday, August 31, 2014

Kidd reverses course, signs with Knicks; Lin plays hardball

According to multiple sorcerers, Jason Kidd has had a last minute change-of-heart, shunning the team with whom he won his first championship ring one short year ago to sign with the Knicks.

While details have yet to emerge, word has it that the deal will be something similar to what the Mavs were offering: three years, $9.5 million.

Jason Kidd is 39.

With Houston having officially extended a four-year, $30 million offer sheet to incumbent court marshall Jeremy Lin, conventional wisdom now has it that bringing on Kidd — mere hours after rumors surfaced pointing to a deal for former ‘Bocker Ray Felton — means the Knicks will match the Rockets’ offer and bring Lin back to be mentored by the veteran Kidd.

The last time the Knicks won a title, Jason Kidd was ALIVE.

We’ll have more on the story as it unfolds, but the early returns seem to suggest a mixed bag of emotions from Knick Knation about this one. Kidd’s experience / moxie / pedigree are doubtless unquestioned. But neither are his stats, all of which have been in precipitous decline the last few seasons.

Then again, in lieu of a Steve Nash gambit that never was to be, having a guy like Kidd to lash the point reins certainly has its benefits. Not the least of which is the continued — and liberal — use of Mike Bibby undead jokes.

Your thoughts, plz.

UPDATE: Immediately upon verbally committing to the Knicks, Jason Kidd turned 73.

UPDATE: It’s still unclear whether the contract will take the form of Dallas’ offer, or whether the Knicks might try and engage Dallas in a sign and trade, presumably involving Toney Douglas. Doing so means the Knicks could potentially have an extra $3 million to lure in another free agent.

UPDATE: According to ESPN’s Ian O’Connor, Lin could be poised to ask the Rockets for more than the reported $30 million over four years. Meaning the Knicks might have an even tougher choice to make than previously thought.

Because, of course.

UPDATE:
As of 7:45, Lin and the Rockets have come to an agreement on a four year, $30 million-plus deal — the fourth year being a team option. Immediately after word broke, Mark Stein of ESPN tweeted that a “source with knowledge of the Knicks’ thinking said the team would match any offer up to a billion dollars.”

Luckily, it’s likely to only be $30 million. Double-luckily, the team option would make for a nice little escape hatch, in the off chance that Lin regresses terribly and the gambit goes haywire.

UPDATE: The Houston deal would be for $5.2 million over the first two years, with years three and four being for $9.3 million — the latter of which, as mentioned above, would be a team option.

So… yeah, not much of a poison pill after all. Those of us who know James Dolan knows the dude shreds $9.3 million over his Corn Flakes every morning, just for some extra fiber.

Match imminent.

160 comments on “Kidd reverses course, signs with Knicks; Lin plays hardball

  1. BigBlueAL

    Jesus Christ now Ken Berger is also saying if Knicks find Lin contract too poisonous they plan on bringing Felton back instead. For the Love of GOD please tell me the Knicks arent seriously considering letting Lin leave and bringing back Felton. No contract is too poisonous to lead to signing Felton instead.

  2. TheRant

    I’m still not certain I understand all of this talk (Nash, Kidd) about “mentoring.”

    You need a mentor, just walk over to the MSG table and talk to Clyde. He watches all the games.

    I think what we really need is someone to take 15-20 minutes per game at the point. I’m not sure 40 year-old men have that ability.

  3. TheRant

    BigBlueAL: For the Love of GOD please tell me the Knicks arent seriously considering letting Lin leave and bringing back Felton.

    I’ll do it: the Knicks arent seriously considering letting Lin leave and bringing back Felton.

    Even “Diamond Jim Dolan” isn’t stupid enough to understand basic business sense — on the liability side, you have $20MM in luxury tax. On the asset side, you have $30MM in Asian market jersey sales and another $60MM for broadcasting MSG content into Asia and Taiwan.

  4. BigBlueAL

    Berger also tweeted:

    In addition to agreement with Jason Kidd and matching Lin offer sheet, Knicks are intensely focused on re-signing J.R. Smith, source says

  5. Brian Cronin

    In addition to agreement with Jason Kidd and matching Lin offer sheet, Knicks are intensely focused on re-signing J.R. Smith, source says

    Heh, yes, because the stumbling block in bringing JR Smith back is the Knicks. Gimme a break. They obviously want him back. It is all up to him. As Frank notes above, the tweet sure sounds good.

  6. JK47

    Kidd is going to be 62 years old when this contract expires.

    Okay, I’m exaggerating, but I don’t like this move.

  7. Sebas94

    I feel as if this is another move that just enables the Knicks to simply stay afloat. I don’t have huge faith in a backcourt of Lin(maybe), kidd, shump, and jr

  8. Brian Cronin

    I feel as if this is another move that just enables the Knicks to simply stay afloat. I don’t have huge faith in a backcourt of Lin(maybe), kidd, shump, and jr

    As we’ve been figuring for awhile now, it comes down to whether Lin can make the leap. If so, this team will be very good.

  9. BigBlueAL

    Dunno how good are Ian O’Connor’s sources but he just tweeted this:

    Jeremy Lin wants more $ than reported $31 million offer from Houston, according to league source. #Knicks facing a hefty match

  10. BigBlueAL

    Not for nothing but Lin has got to be kidding if he thinks he should get more. Dragic didnt get more and he has a much longer track record.

  11. Jafa

    I hate this move. We just went through this with having 2 old guys as back-up PGs. It didn’t work. Feels like we went for the name again over substance.

  12. Jafa

    Lin is at the poker table negotiating with the Rockets. He knows they are desperate to get him at this point and wants to make sure the salary is so rich the Knicks have to walk away from it.

  13. JK47

    Who else is around that can make a bigger offer to Lin than the one Houston already has on the table? With Toronto acquiring Lowry I think the Houston offer will probably be the biggest one Lin gets, no?

  14. BigBlueAL

    I would think so. Remember Houston let Dragic go because he wanted 10 mil per year yet he wound up signing for 4yr/32mil with Phoenix which reportedly is the exact same offer the Rockets offered him earlier. No surprise they offered Lin the same contract basically. Doesnt seem like they are willing to go any higher.

  15. Jafa

    Yeah, but if Houston does not get Lin, that would be a PR disaster. Starting the off season with 2 capable starting PGs and ending with none? That would be pretty bad.

  16. Joamiq

    Kidd will be playing fewer minutes than ever before in his career, and he’ll be spending a higher proportion of them against second units. I’m not suggesting that he’s going to get any better, but his dropoff from last season to next might not be quite as dramatic as would be suggested by his aging curve up to this point. And Jason Kidd in continued decline may still be better than Ray Felton.

    Also, we don’t know yet what the terms of the deal will be. If the Knicks are able to engineer some kind of S&T between now and 7/11 and retain their exception, that might make this move seem better.

    In any case, I do not feel pessimistic about this.

  17. johnlocke

    For all those complaining about the Kidd trade… none of the other options we had at the PG position would have moved the needle very much (Bayless-maybe? Felton?). Kidd is a leader (i.e., he can get into Melo and Amare for not playing D), a very effective mentor, a good passer and he can hit an outside shot when open. He will be a back-up people. I’ve never seen such uproar over a back-up player. This is a good pick-up for the Knicks. Yes, his stats aren’t amazing, but I think he brings many intangibles that are important to a team, that many seem to be dismissing.

  18. johnlocke

    There’s NO way he goes, no matter what kind of poison pill is thrown out there…Knicks are throwing out garbage that they may take Felton, so teams just don’t really try and screw us

    BigBlueAL:
    Marc Stein seems to think the Knicks will match any contract offer Lin gets.

  19. Jafa

    If Kidd signed for the veteran’s minimum, there will be no uproar.

    If Kidd signed for 3 years and $9 M, there will be an uproar.

    If Kidd is our new starting PG, there will be a bigger uproar.

    If Lin is let go because we signed Kidd, there will be a riot.

  20. Jafa

    And Johnlocke,

    Did you just say “he brings many intangibles”? What is this: a Tim Tebow signing?

  21. diehardknickerbocker

    BigBlueAL:
    Berger also tweeted:

    In addition to agreement with Jason Kidd and matching Lin offer sheet, Knicks are intensely focused on re-signing J.R. Smith, source says

    thank goodness don’t need to lose him too

  22. johnlocke

    1. $9M for 3 years is as low as you’re going to get for any of the back-up PGs we were discussing, unless you wanted Prigioni from Europe

    2. If Kidd is the starter it’ll be b/c he earned it in training camp. A great aspect of Kidd’s size is that he can guard 2s, so starting him with Lin is not off the table…we could see a lineup of Lin, Kidd, Melo, Amare and Chandler…and both Lin and Kidd can play off the ball. This would probably be until Shump comes back…

    3. Lin is not going to be let go. The President of MSG has said that in all his years of business he’s never seen a ‘product’ sell like Jeremy Lin…The Knicks can match any offer, he isn’t going anywhere, they will deal with the penalties, this is the core team for the next three years unless Amare underperforms again next year

    Jafa:
    If Kidd signed for the veteran’s minimum, there will be no uproar.

    If Kidd signed for 3 years and $9 M, there will be an uproar.

    If Kidd is our new starting PG, there will be a bigger uproar.

    If Lin is let go because we signed Kidd, there will be a riot.

  23. johnlocke

    Things like leadership, championship experience and basketball IQ don’t show up on stat sheets, but yes are very important. I don’t know what you’re talking about regarding Tebow.

    Jafa:
    And Johnlocke,

    Did you just say “he brings many intangibles”?What is this: a Tim Tebow signing?

  24. Jafa

    Why is anybody excited about Jason Kidd? Sounds like he taking advantage of us striking out on Nash to cash in at the end of his career. We should not be excited about washed up players signing with us, even if they are future HOF players.

    I’d rather have a no name back-up PG at/or close to the veterans minimum on a one-year deal that Kidd at 3 years and $9 M.

  25. diehardknickerbocker

    BigBlueAL:
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    somebod

    BigBlueAL:
    Dunno how good are Ian O’Connor’s sources but he just tweeted this:

    Jeremy Lin wants more $ than reported $31 million offer from Houston, according to league source. #Knicks facing a hefty match

    he’s makin sure he never sleeps on a couch again

  26. Jafa

    Leadership: Melo, STAT and Chandler should provide that in spades

    Championship Experience: Chandler is already filling that position

    Basketball IQ: This would be important in a player that is starting for us, or playing crunch time minutes for us. If Kidd is here to start and play crunch time minutes, then you have a point. However, I would then counter than everything we lose with him in this role trumps the basketball IQ we gain.

  27. BigBlueAL

    Jafa:
    Why is anybody excited about Jason Kidd?Sounds like he taking advantage of us striking out on Nash to cash in at the end of his career.We should not be excited about washed up players signing with us, even if they are future HOF players.

    I’d rather have a no name back-up PG at/or close to the veterans minimum on a one-year deal that Kidd at 3 years and $9 M.

    Jason Kidd’s stats last season were still much, much better than what TD, Bibby or even Felton’s were. Kidd is naturally in serious decline but he still was decent last season which is what 3mil per year buys.

  28. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    It’s a risk, but it’s worth mentioning that Kidd had a WP48 of .207 last year (that’s good for fifth in the league). This could be a very, very good thing. He actually rebounds!

  29. jon abbey

    Jafa:
    Yeah, but if Houston does not get Lin, that would be a PR disaster.Starting the off season with 2 capable starting PGs and ending with none?That would be pretty bad.

    trying to open up space for a Howard/Paul combo next summer?

  30. JK47

    At what point does Houston say “eff it” and just withdraw their offer sheet? It’s already a backloaded deal by nature– do they want to be giving Lin $15M a year at some point? If so, Morey is an idiot.

  31. ruruland

    Jafa: Why is anybody excited about Jason Kidd? Sounds like he taking advantage of us striking out on Nash to cash in at the end of his career. We should not be excited about washed up players signing with us, even if they are future HOF players. I’d rather have a no name back-up PG at/or close to the veterans minimum on a one-year deal that Kidd at 3 years and $9 M.

    This is annoying.

  32. Jafa

    If you consider him “descent” last season, wait until this season. Wait until the 3rd year of this contract. Some guys at the YMCA will be better options than him by then.

    And you said he’s big enough to guard 2s. Yes, he is big enough to guard 2s. But he is not fast enough to stay with them, or physical enough to give them trouble, or quick enough to disrupt them, or athletic enough to alter their shots, or…

    I mean, Kidd entered the league in 1994. 1994! Do you know you came into the league with him that’s still around? Grant Hill (thanks to an extended career due to several missed seasons and Phoenix doctors) and Juwan Howard (resident cheerleader on the Miami Heat). Everybody else has been retired for years. I’m supposed to clap and cheer because we got this guy?

  33. BigBlueAL

    JK47:
    At what point does Houston say “eff it” and just withdraw their offer sheet? It’s already a backloaded deal by nature– do they want to be giving Lin $15M a year at some point? If so, Morey is an idiot.

    It wont be 15mil a year for them, only for the Knicks. They would pay the same every year, so if they offer him 4 yr 32 mil they would pay Lin 8 mil per year. The Knicks would pay Lin 5/5/11/11 because of the backloaded contract. Its stupid but thats how it is I believe.

  34. BigBlueAL

    Jafa: Why ruruland?Please elaborate.And try not to mention Melo is your soliloquy of a response.

    I say if even THCJ approves signing Kidd then its all good.

  35. ruruland

    Jafa: If you consider him “descent” last season, wait until this season. Wait until the 3rd year of this contract. Some guys at the YMCA will be better options than him by then.And you said he’s big enough to guard 2s. Yes, he is big enough to guard 2s. But he is not fast enough to stay with them, or physical enough to give them trouble, or quick enough to disrupt them, or athletic enough to alter their shots, or…I mean, Kidd entered the league in 1994. 1994! Do you know you came into the league with him that’s still around? Grant Hill (thanks to an extended career due to several missed seasons and Phoenix doctors) and Juwan Howard (resident cheerleader on the Miami Heat). Everybody else has been retired for years. I’m supposed to clap and cheer because we got this guy?

    jesus fuck. $3 mil a year for a guy one year removed from playing an integral role on the best team in the NBA. he was arguably the third best player on the NBA champions…

    He’s certainly a better defender than Nash, and he does everything right offensively…..

    His extremely low fga/per 36 and extremely high assist % is an ideal fit for this team….

    his 3 year spot-up trend, rebounding, ability to start break from back-court, ajnd tough defense on bigger players are all big-time assets.

    It’s a HUGE upgrade from Davis/Bibby/Douyglas

  36. ruruland

    Jafa: Why ruruland? Please elaborate. And try not to mention Melo is your soliloquy of a response.

    I don’t know how you want me to elaborate. Take it or leave it.

  37. ruruland

    johnlocke: For all those complaining about the Kidd trade… none of the other options we had at the PG position would have moved the needle very much (Bayless-maybe? Felton?). Kidd is a leader (i.e., he can get into Melo and Amare for not playing D), a very effective mentor, a good passer and he can hit an outside shot when open. He will be a back-up people. I’ve never seen such uproar over a back-up player. This is a good pick-up for the Knicks. Yes, his stats aren’t amazing, but I think he brings many intangibles that are important to a team, that many seem to be dismissing.

    It’s a great pick-up. there is no stat to account for a guy who puts everyone into position on offense, who has an extraordinary ability to understand what his teammates need to do against what the defense is trying to do against them.

    let’s remember, the Mavericks were significantly less athletically talented than Miami, but they played much smarter and patiently.

  38. maxwell_3g

    Jafa:
    Leadership: Melo, STAT and Chandler should provide that in spades

    Championship Experience: Chandler is already filling that position

    Basketball IQ: This would be important in a player that is starting for us, or playing crunch time minutes for us.If Kidd is here to start and play crunch time minutes, then you have a point.However, I would then counter than everything we lose with him in this role trumps the basketball IQ we gain.

    really???? melo and stat provide leadership??? maybe thats why we have won one playoff game in two years with them. i wont even add a fire extinguisher joke. Kidd provides real championship leadership at the point position and can groom lin to do the same down the road. this is a great signing because, if nothing else, the inmates wont be running the asylum anymore. plus kidd hass the size and stength that he can play with lin at times

  39. Jafa

    ruruland,

    By your logic we should sign Deshawn Stevenson as well – after all he was on that team and played an integral role.

    3rd best player? Let see: Dirk, Chandler, Terry. Ok, 4th best player 2 years ago.

    Why even spend $3 M? We got Bibby and Baron Davis for the minimum. Why spend stick to that for old guys at the end of their run. When did we become the Celtics?

    He was an all-nba defender. Not any more. And Nash offers way more than Kidd at this point in his career. Billups offers more than Kidd at this point.

    Yes, he is better than David/Bibby/Douglas. But at $9 M over 3 years? Just give me Douglas until I can get a shot at a better PG or until Lin develops into the PG we hope he will be.

  40. ruruland

    maxwell_3g: really???? melo and stat provide leadership??? maybe thats why we have won one playoff game in two years with them. i wont even add a fire extinguisher joke. Kidd provides real championship leadership at the point position and can groom lin to do the same down the road. this is a great signing because, if nothing else, the inmates wont be running the asylum anymore. plus kidd hass the size and stength that he can play with lin at times

    I actually think the Knicks were in a good position from a leadership perspective last year.

    but when a team is missing critical personnel and can’t function properly the appearance of leadership diminishes.

    The Lakers have great leadership when they win, and none when they get bounced.

  41. Jafa

    Well, I don’t mind being the lone dissenter on this board. I don’t mind Kidd, I just mind how much money and how many years we are giving him.

  42. maxwell_3g

    BigBlueAL: It wont be 15mil a year for them, only for the Knicks.They would pay the same every year, so if they offer him 4 yr 32 mil they would pay Lin 8 mil per year.The Knicks would pay Lin 5/5/11/11 because of the backloaded contract.Its stupid but thats how it is I believe.

    my belief is that most anyone can offer for first 2 years is a little over 5 years due to bird rights. therefore, all teams must backload.

  43. mr.JayP

    Lin’s price is just getting too high and he’s getting too greedy. Sign some rookies and let him walk.

  44. Gamecockerbocker

    Jafa:Why even spend $3 M? We got Bibby and Baron Davis for the minimum. Why spend stick to that for old guys at the end of their run. When did we become the Celtics?P>

    I for one would love the Knicks to become the Celtics… recent NBA championship. One win away from being eastern conference champs last year. One of the more respected organizations in the sport.

    Sorry, had to jump in.

  45. Jafa

    BigBlueAL: I say if even THCJ approves signing Kidd then its all good.

    I disagree with THCJ’s posts often so I’m ok with that. I’m not buying Kidd at that price at all. I don’t mind Kidd, but not at that price.

  46. maxwell_3g

    ruruland: I actually think the Knicks were in a good position from a leadership perspective last year.

    but when a team is missing critical personnel and can’t function properly the appearance of leadership diminishes.

    The Lakers have great leadership when they win, and none when they get bounced.

    stat and melo have never been leaders and cettainly have never led good teams. im not knocking their talent (especially melo’s) but leadership is not the same as talent. kidd provides great intangibles and calming influence for the team, which we certainly need IMO. i agree that we have more potential than we showed in the first round, assuming shump comes back healthy

  47. ruruland

    Jafa: ruruland,By your logic we should sign Deshawn Stevenson as well – after all he was on that team and played an integral role.3rd best player? Let see: Dirk, Chandler, Terry. Ok, 4th best player 2 years ago.Why even spend $3 M? We got Bibby and Baron Davis for the minimum. Why spend stick to that for old guys at the end of their run. When did we become the Celtics?He was an all-nba defender. Not any more. And Nash offers way more than Kidd at this point in his career. Billups offers more than Kidd at this point.Yes, he is better than David/Bibby/Douglas. But at $9 M over 3 years? Just give me Douglas until I can get a shot at a better PG or until Lin develops into the PG we hope he will be.

    No, not my argument at all, you know that.

    I will post Kidd’s 3 year numbers.

    here are his weaknesses: he is not a “great” penetrator in half-court
    he struggles against quicker guards, he does not have a mid-range offensive game, he’s no longer the coast to coast player he was just a few years ago

    his strengths: extremely intilligent which manifests in many ways, good spot-up shooter, good post-up inside-out (will be second best post player), still great passer, extremely unselfish, smart defender, plus defender on larger guards and small forwards

    there is no argument here. He’s a massive upgrade over last year’s pg’s. And he improves the chances of beating Miami and making the NBA finals next season.

  48. ruruland

    mr.JayP: Lin’s price is just getting too high and he’s getting too greedy. Sign some rookies and let him walk.

    There’s no chance that happens. just take a moment to think about it.

  49. ruruland

    maxwell_3g: stat and melo have never been leaders and cettainly have never led good teams. im not knocking their talent (especially melo’s) but leadership is not the same as talent. kidd provides great intangibles and calming influence for the team, which we certainly need IMO. i agree that we have more potential than we showed in the first round, assuming shump comes back healthy

    Some would argue Stat was a pretty good leader two years ago. melo’s never been a consumate leader but he’s certainly had leadership qualities and was a captian before receiving accolades. he was considered one of the core leaders on Team USA in ’07, for example…..

    I though Stat,Melo,chandler and Lin formed a really solid leadership core last year…. I think it took some time to figure out how it was going tyo work…

    Regardless, Kidd helps there and pretty much everywhere.

  50. Jafa

    Ruruland,

    I get what he brings, and you put it together nicely. But why are we making the same mistake the Celtics are making (signing old guys at the end of their rope to 3 year deals)? Kidd does not put us over the top to beat the Heat. Getting Rondo and a lights out shooter at the 2 would put us over the top, or at least in position to really compete with them.

    If you think we are on the verge of competing with the Heat for a title this season, then I can see you arguing for Kidd at any price.

    But if your like me and see us losing in the 2nd round with what we have, either to the Celtics or the Heat, you limit yourself from signing contracts that will hinder you from improving after this season, with an eye on flexibility to make moves that put you over the top in the future.

  51. thenamestsam

    If seemingly every single person who mentions a move feels obligated to mention that a player has “great intangibles”, “championship experience”, “leadership” and whatnot then:

    A. There’s a 95% chance that the player in question is an old, white player.

    B. The player has probably lost a bit on the tangible side of things.

    I’m not saying those things don’t exist or don’t matter. They do and they do. But honestly, if you haven’t been in a locker room with these guys, or at least watched them extremely closely, you don’t really know shit about who’s a leader or who has great intangibles. 99% of the people here talking about Jason Kidd’s leadership are probably basing that on the fact that some other person with just as little knowledge just tweeted it.

  52. Jafa

    ruruland: Some would argue Stat was a pretty good leader two years ago. melo’s never been a consumate leader but he’s certainly had leadership qualities and was a captian before receiving accolades. he was considered one of the core leaders on Team USA in ’07, for example…..

    I though Stat,Melo,chandler and Lin formed a really solid leadership core last year…. I think it took some time to figure out how it was going tyo work…

    Regardless, Kidd helps there and pretty much everywhere.

    On this I agree with you. STAT has led us before Melo’s arrival, and we saw Melo lead us once Woodson took over. They have it in them and can do it.

  53. ruruland

    Jafa: Ruruland,I get what he brings, and you put it together nicely. But why are we making the same mistake the Celtics are making (signing old guys at the end of their rope to 3 year deals)? Kidd does not put us over the top to beat the Heat. Getting Rondo and a lights out shooter at the 2 would put us over the top, or at least in position to really compete with them. If you think we are on the verge of competing with the Heat for a title this season, then I can see you arguing for Kidd at any price. But if your like me and see us losing in the 2nd round with what we have, either to the Celtics or the Heat, you limit yourself from signing contracts that will hinder you from improving after this season, with an eye on flexibility to make moves that put you over the top in the future.

    I disagree. You’ll see. I understand your argument but you’re underestimating how good the Knicks will be and also the value added vs cost….

  54. Jafa

    thenamestsam:
    If seemingly every single person who mentions a move feels obligated to mention that a player has “great intangibles”, “championship experience”, “leadership” and whatnot then:

    A. There’s a 95% chance that the player in question is an old, white player.

    B. The player has probably lost a bit on the tangible side of things.

    I’m not saying those things don’t exist or don’t matter. They do and they do. But honestly, if you haven’t been in a locker room with these guys, or at least watched them extremely closely, you don’t really know shit about who’s a leader or who has great intangibles. 99% of the people here talking about Jason Kidd’s leadership are probably basing that on the fact that some other person with just as little knowledge just tweeted it.

    Thank you! $9M over 3 years for “intangibles”? In that case I got some intangibles I could bring to the Knicks. Where do I sign?

  55. Jafa

    ruruland: I disagree. You’ll see. I understand your argument but you’re underestimating how good the Knicks will be and also the value added vs cost….

    I have overestimated how good we could be for the past 2 years. I think I’m finally getting my estimation calibration down to a science.

  56. ruruland

    Jafa: On this I agree with you. STAT has led us before Melo’s arrival, and we saw Melo lead us once Woodson took over. They have it in them and can do it.

    It’s more about having a core of guys and an experienced backbone of the team. Dirk wasn’t recognized as a leader until he won a chip etc al….

    there are very few teams who have one true leader…. In fact, I’m not even sure you can make the argument that JUST Lebron suffices as a team leader. he needs to have guys around him, too.

  57. ruruland

    thenamestsam: If seemingly every single person who mentions a move feels obligated to mention that a player has “great intangibles”, “championship experience”, “leadership” and whatnot then:A. There’s a 95% chance that the player in question is an old, white player. B. The player has probably lost a bit on the tangible side of things.I’m not saying those things don’t exist or don’t matter. They do and they do. But honestly, if you haven’t been in a locker room with these guys, or at least watched them extremely closely, you don’t really know shit about who’s a leader or who has great intangibles. 99% of the people here talking about Jason Kidd’s leadership are probably basing that on the fact that some other person with just as little knowledge just tweeted it.

    No, I also disagree with this. Even if you didn’t know anything about how guys act and the small group dynamics of a locker room (and reporters do they just don’t report it directly) you can tell who leaders are and who is respected by watching closely over a long season……

    You can also tell who is organizing and directing the offense, both qualities Kidd is top notch….

    Ok, frank posted Kidd’s ’12 numbers….

    But in ’10 he was the 10th best spot up shooter in the NBA, and in ’11 he was still over 1ppp on spot-ups, which is good.

    the guy is going to make teams pay for doubling Melo or trapping Lin pnrs, and he’s always going to make the right pass on time and on target…. Watch guys spot up numbers improve because of his passing.

  58. thenamestsam

    ruruland: No, not my argument at all, you know that.

    I will post Kidd’s 3 year numbers.

    here are his weaknesses: he is not a “great” penetrator in half-court
    he struggles against quicker guards, he does not have a mid-range offensive game, he’s no longer the coast to coast player he was just a few years ago

    his strengths: extremely intilligent which manifests in many ways, good spot-up shooter, good post-up inside-out (will be second best post player), still great passer, extremely unselfish, smart defender, plus defender on larger guards and small forwards

    there is no argument here. He’s a massive upgrade over last year’s pg’s. And he improves the chances of beating Miami and making the NBA finals next season.

    I think you’re being quite generous. His weaknesses are almost all significantly worse than the way you phrased it. Not a great penetrator: He couldn’t beat my mother off the bounce. Not the coast-to-coast player anymore: he’s a straight liability in this area. He often has to back the ball over halfcourt because he has 0 quickness and 0 speed.

    And a couple of his strengths I just disagree with. He didn’t post at all this year in the games I saw. That part of his game is gone. He ahd 273 FGA, and 223 were 3 pointers. He rarely ventures inside the 3 point line. Very rarely. And I can’t agree that he’s a plus defender on anyone anymore. He’s not a liability against those types of players, but better than atrocious is not plus. He is a good spot up shooter, but he won’t pull the trigger unless he has miles of space. He’s a good passer obviously, but it has been greatly marginalized at this point because he can’t create any space or draw any defenders.

    Is he an improvement? A marginal one. He’s better than Bibby and Baron, but not much. Also he’s 39, so I wouldn’t count on that being true for long.

  59. thenamestsam

    ruruland: No, I also disagree with this. Even if you didn’t know anything about how guys act and the small group dynamics of a locker room (and reporters do they just don’t report it directly) you can tell who leaders are and who is respected by watching closely over a long season……

    You can also tell who is organizing and directing the offense, both qualities Kidd is top notch….

    Yes, if you watch closely over a long season I agree that you can get an idea of who’s a leader. What percentage of the people in here raving about Kidd’s leadership and presence would you think closely watched the Mavs last year?

  60. ruruland

    thenamestsam: I think you’re being quite generous. His weaknesses are almost all significantly worse than the way you phrased it. Not a great penetrator: He couldn’t beat my mother off the bounce. Not the coast-to-coast player anymore: he’s a straight liability in this area. He often has to back the ball over halfcourt because he has 0 quickness and 0 speed. And a couple of his strengths I just disagree with. He didn’t post at all this year in the games I saw. That part of his game is gone. He ahd 273 FGA, and 223 were 3 pointers. He rarely ventures inside the 3 point line. Very rarely. And I can’t agree that he’s a plus defender on anyone anymore. He’s not a liability against those types of players, but better than atrocious is not plus. He is a good spot up shooter, but he won’t pull the trigger unless he has miles of space. He’s a good passer obviously, but it has been greatly marginalized at this point because he can’t create any space or draw any defenders. Is he an improvement? A marginal one. He’s better than Bibby and Baron, but not much. Also he’s 39, so I wouldn’t count on that being true for long.

    Disregard intangibles (which is just a word that means we can’t yet measure something) but his low fga/ high pass ratio in the half-court is important to maintaining balance.

    And you’re wrong about post-ups. it’s the primary way he creates passing angles.. He just doesn’t shoot a lot from post-ups, he’s always drawing another defender and setting the defense into rotation..

    And he’s still a very good fastbreak player in the same way Andre Miller is, neither guys beats the defense down the floor– but they both have great vision downfloor and top notch passing skills.

    The Knicks have plenty of athletes for Kidd to find up court.

    he and Lin will be a nice duo.

  61. ruruland

    thenamestsam: Yes, if you watch closely over a long season I agree that you can get an idea of who’s a leader. What percentage of the people in here raving about Kidd’s leadership and presence would you think closely watched the Mavs last year?

    Don’t you think a lot of us have seen a lot of Kidd over the last 20 years?

  62. ruruland

    Let’s remember this, the single biggest reason the Knicks had to dig ou of such a huge hole last year was spot-up shooting….

    Kidd will give you 20-25 as both a spot-up threat and converter.

    I would argue that second biggest weakness last year was the inability to consistently spread touches, which is a complex problem…

    Kidd’s passing helps that a lot, too.

  63. Frank

    Jafa:

    But if your like me and see us losing in the 2nd round with what we have, either to the Celtics or the Heat, you limit yourself from signing contracts that will hinder you from improving after this season, with an eye on flexibility to make moves that put you over the top in the future.

    Please tell me what “flexibility” signing Kidd takes away from us. The flexibility to sign Pablo Prigioni? Nope, can still do that. His contract will put us over the tax lane? Nope, we are already over that. Well then surely you’re talking about cap space after Melo/Chandler/amare expire in 2015. Nope, Kidd comes off the cap then too.

    I really just don’t see the downside to this, ESPECIALLY if we can do this as a sign and trade and not use our mini-MLE. I still think we send TD, Jorts, JJ, Gadz to Dallas for Kidd and Vince Carter. Then Vince is JR insurance or we can buy him out if JR does re-sign. Dallas gets to clear Vince off their books next summer when they want to make moves. Then we sign Camby or Hickson or whoever to the mini.

    I’m not sure what Kidd has left either, but I love this way more than bringing someone here who has a chip on his shoulder and looking to prove he’s supposed to be a starter by jacking up bad shots and playing over aggressively. Like, say, Raymond Felton.

  64. flossy

    I’d prefer a back-up who can play starters minutes in the event that Lin gets injured again. J

  65. BigBlueAL

    Maybe this is grasping for straws but last season’s schedule certainly didnt help someone like Kidd I would imagine. Having a normal schedule again could maybe get him back to his stats the previous couple of seasons which were pretty good??

  66. BigBlueAL

    Reports are Lin has agreed to offer sheet with Rockets, waiting to see actual terms of deal.

  67. 2FOR18

    Jesus, has this site been linked to yahoo or something with all of these wacky comments about Kidd and Lin? Re: Kidd, Who do you people think the Knicks are getting for 3 mil a year in a market where Fields and Crawford are getting about twice that? Re: Lin, obviously the Knicks are going to match.

    I’m even agreeing with ruru today.

  68. johnlocke

    please remind me who the starting pg was for the dallas mavericks was last year…and a couple years ago when he was 36/37 and they won the championship…ay-ya-yi. There is NO downside here as well articulated by Frank. There is only opportunity cost, and the only other option was Felton, so unless you are making an impassioned argument for Felton over Kidd, this argument is nonsensical. I also agree with pretty much everything Ruru has said above.

    flossy: johnlocke

  69. johnlocke

    That was to flossy who wanted a back up who can play starter minutes… Kidd averaged 29 mins a game last season

  70. BigBlueAL

    Wojo saying its a 3 yr deal with a team option for 4th year, no money details yet. Stein adds Knicks will match any offer up to 1 billion dollars lol

  71. KnickfaninNJ

    It’s a seller’s market out there for free agents. All the contracts being discussed are for more than what most of the people in this forum think is reasonable. I think the owners know the cap is going to go up (although they need accounting and such to get an exact new number) and they are spending the money in advance.. So Kidd may be overpriced by last year’s standards, but not by this years. Anyway, at most it’s a million or two a year extra. I can’t get too excited about that if the alternative is not having enough backup point guards. Last year when Lin, Shumpert and Davis went down we would have been very glad to have Kidd. So let’s wait and see what happens with Lin’s contract.,

  72. jon abbey

    BigBlueAL:
    Wojo saying its a 3 yr deal with a team option for 4th year, no money details yet.Stein adds Knicks will match any offer up to 1 billion dollars lol

    the Kidd deal may have kept HOU from guaranteeing that 4th year, as they were maybe a bit nervous that the Knicks would be less likely to match that.

    Kidd already paying dividends! :)

  73. BigBlueAL

    Adrian Wojnarowski tweets:

    Lin’s deal will be worth $9.3M “poison pill” third year of deal, league source tells Y!

  74. Ben R

    I am not stoked about the Kidd signing. I would have preferred Bayless or Sessions mainly because Kidd is such an injury/age risk. Eventually in the somewhat near future Kidd is going to wake up and fall off the cliff he has been slowly sliding down and be totally useless, ala Bibby in the playoffs for the Heat, or he is going to step wrong tweak a muscle and miss half the season. There is a reason not many basketball players make it to their late thirties.

    On top of that I think we need scoring not passing off our bench. We have plenty of scoring in our starting lineup but with Kidd, TD, Shump, Jorts, Novak, Jordan and Jeffries (if he comes back) we have zero shot creation off the bench. TD has the best hope to actually create a shot but at this point hoping for anything from TD is a longshot.

    With our bench I would feel much better with a spark combo guard that can score over a pass first PG like Kidd.

  75. BigBlueAL

    He tweets again:

    “Offer sheet for Lin will pay him $5M in year one, $5.2M in year two and $9.3M in years three and again in team option year four, source says.”

    Whats the point of Houston doing this?? I mean thats a no-brainer for the Knicks to match.

  76. massive

    In three years, I wouldn’t be shocked if Lin was worth that $9.3 million. Especially with Lin learning from a fellow Bay Area star in Kidd.

  77. nicos

    I don’t know if anyone posted this but his synergy defensive numbers last year were okay- as you might expect he was awful in iso situations (1 ppp 297th in the league) but he was pretty good everywhere else (80th guarding the ball in pnrs, 28th in the post, 95th on spot-ups, 23rd off screens). Basically, he still looks like a real plus defender against 2s but no longer effective on the ball. He was very effective against iso’s two years ago (77th in the league) so perhaps being reunited with Chandler will help. On offense- he’ll shoot threes and he can still feed the post- something every guard on the Knicks seemed to struggle to do last year. And he still has terrific court vision- how many times did cutters flash open and not get the ball last year? That should happen much less than before. He’s also going to be fine coming off of the bench, he should really help Lin (and probably Shump too) so I’m fine with the signing.

  78. Frank

    I just don’t get Morey. If you’re going to go for it, go for it. The 4th year team option is actually perfect for the Knicks, because they can start 2015-16 with a totally clean slate (except Shump’s last year and any future draft picks). You couldn’t have made this any better for the Knicks, as it forestalls full Bird Rights until after the 15-16 season.

    Zach lowe has an interesting read on Morey on SI – I think he’s being too nice though. I don’t see a method to this madness, unless this really is a tank-o-rama. Even so, Kevin Martin and Scola are probably too good for this team to be a bottom 5 team.

  79. jon abbey

    BigBlueAL:
    He tweets again:

    “Offer sheet for Lin will pay him $5M in year one, $5.2M in year two and $9.3M in years three and again in team option year four, source says.”

    Whats the point of Houston doing this??I mean thats a no-brainer for the Knicks to match.

    wow, that’s fantastic, we catch a huge break compared to what it could have been. NICE!

  80. jon abbey

    Ben R:

    On top of that I think we need scoring not passing off our bench. We have plenty of scoring in our starting lineup but with Kidd, TD, Shump, Jorts, Novak, Jordan and Jeffries (if he comes back) we have zero shot creation off the bench. TD has the best hope to actually create a shot but at this point hoping for anything from TD is a longshot.

    With our bench I would feel much better with a spark combo guard that can score over a pass first PG like Kidd.

    JR Smith fits this bill better than almost anyone in the league, hopefully ruru is right about him coming back.

  81. BigBlueAL

    Others are reporting the same thing about Lin’s contract. Im shocked really. Was expecting something alot worse than this, Knicks front office should be thrilled if this is really the contract offer Lin is getting.

  82. jon abbey

    BigBlueAL:
    Others are reporting the same thing about Lin’s contract.Im shocked really.Was expecting something alot worse than this, Knicks front office should be thrilled if this is really the contract offer Lin is getting.

    seriously, I was expecting a 5/5/15/15 deal.

  83. Frank

    So can the vocal few that were killing Grunwald for allowing the market to set his price agree that maybe our FO finally knows what it is doing? There was no way that Lin was going to sign just a full MLE-level contract. The market said he’s worth $30M over 4 years, and now Lin gets his money, Knicks match happily, and there are no hard feelings anywhere.

    Now to Novak and JR, and figuring out whether Kidd will be a S&T or straight mini-MLE. Hopefully the former.

  84. BigBlueAL

    jon abbey: seriously, I was expecting a 5/5/15/15 deal.

    Nah I knew it wouldnt be that much but more like 11/11 at the end. Plus the 4th year is apparently a team option, how great is that. You would hope that by years 3 and 4 Lin would deserve 9.3 mil so he would actually be worth it if not a bargain at the end of this deal.

  85. jon abbey

    Frank:
    So can the vocal few that were killing Grunwald for allowing the market to set his price agree that maybe our FO finally knows what it is doing?There was no way that Lin was going to sign just a full MLE-level contract.The market said he’s worth $30M over 4 years, and now Lin gets his money, Knicks match happily, and there are no hard feelings anywhere.

    it did seem to work, Grunwald seemingly can do little wrong so far.

  86. Brian Cronin

    What a bizarre offer sheet. All it does is allow Lin to make some more guaranteed money than he would normally get. Good for Lin, good for the Knicks, idiotic for the Rockets.

  87. steveoh

    Our other point guards last year were Baron Davis, Mike Bibby and Toney Douglas. Baron was out of control. Bibby couldn’t shoot. And Toney was miscast.

    Jason Kidd, at the very least, brings organization and generalship to an offense with JR, Melo, Amare and whomever out there looking to gun. And that’s at the very least. Like ruru said, what he brings is not something that cannot be calculated, but we all saw clearly how much we needed a true point out there. Remember?

    He’s turned himself into a good spot-up shooter. That helps, yes?

    Yes, he’s 39. But we’re not asking him to play like when he was 28. We’re asking for 20 minutes, some of them at the 2.

    I love it for what he brings, even at 39, even at limited minutes, just as long as the contract reflects that.

  88. d-mar

    The thing I like about Kidd is that he’s just a smart, savvy, winning PG. Compare that with Baron last year, who just seemed to do one dumb thing after another that would leave us all scratching our heads. I would have absolute trust in Kidd to make the right decisions, to get players the ball in the right spot and to even make a great play to win a game, whether it’s a steal, a 3 pointer or a pass. He’s way past his prime, but as a 25 minute a game guy, he’s great for this team, and now we have two players who have won recent championships and are leader types. How bad can that be?

  89. KnickfaninNJ

    Brian Cronin:
    What a bizarre offer sheet. All it does is allow Lin to make some more guaranteed money than he would normally get. Good for Lin, good for the Knicks, idiotic for the Rockets.

    I’m not sure it’s idiotic for the Rockets. There could be two reasons I can think of it’s not. One, they know it’s a long shot, but are willing to make the offer in case something strange happens (the Knicks make a blockbuster trade that changes the situation, or just get cheap all of a sudden). Two, maybe they have a relationship with Lin’s agent and they take him seriously when he comes shopping Lin to them. They think it’s a long shot, but they can’t not take him seriously, because they like being on good terms with him.

  90. KnickfaninNJ

    And also, it never looks bad to your fans to go after a hot commodity like Lin.

  91. Frank

    KnickfaninNJ:
    And also, it never looks bad to your fans to go after a hot commodity like Lin.

    You know what does look bad though?
    Coming in 15th in the league year after year.
    Trying to get Melo and striking out.
    Trying to get Howard and striking out.
    Letting Dragic walk for what is a pretty reasonable $ amount.
    Trading Lowry for Gary Forbes and an “innovative” 1st round pick.
    Drafting 14 PFs in the last 2 years.
    Having Earl Boykins be your starting PG in 12-13.
    Getting used by Jeremy Lin to squeeze some money out of the NYK.

    It’s been a bad offseason for Morey.

  92. danvt

    Ben R: here is a reason not many basketball players make it to their late thirties.

    Anyone can get injured. BD got injured and he’s old but Shumpert got injured too. Derrick Rose got injured. If JKidd is healthy, he’s still one of the best play makers in history. How happy will Novak be to have him? (What’s happening there, btw?) Yeah, he comes at a slight premium in terms of salary and years but he’s the PERFECT BACKUP PG! I was really worried about a platoon arrangement with Nash alienating Lin. This is the rare Knick signing where there’s actually a pressing need that is met. Let’s not say “intangibles”, let’s say “smart”. I’ve wanted a player like this on this team for years. Low FGA’s, extremely creative, and Ben, you want a combo guard? Are you serious? How many chuckers has this team signed over the years?

  93. StatsTeacher

    Reminds me of Golden State’s idiocy that initially lost Lin — they offered $42 mil to DeAndre Jordan, which the Clip’s waited about 2 nanoseconds to match as it was $7 mil less than they were willing to go. Houston’s offer is great for Dolan’s bottom line, it’s only 1 year of risk (year 3 at $9 mil), it’s a very tame offer. And Kidd at $3 mil per, what is wrong with this board? — the Knicks made out like bandits on these 2 deals.

    Brian Cronin:
    What a bizarre offer sheet. All it does is allow Lin to make some more guaranteed money than he would normally get. Good for Lin, good for the Knicks, idiotic for the Rockets.

  94. JC Knickfan

    jon abbey: seriously, I was expecting a 5/5/15/15 deal.

    I expecting it also, but from Toronto or Net if they lost D-Will.
    Damn I would given odds to anyone that RFA Toronto would given offer sheet would be Lin not Fields.

  95. maxwell_3g

    Brian Cronin:
    What a bizarre offer sheet. All it does is allow Lin to make some more guaranteed money than he would normally get. Good for Lin, good for the Knicks, idiotic for the Rockets.

    i think that, without getting dwight or anyone else, the rockets have decided to go into tank mode. lin would helo sell tickets but moight actually play them out of the lottery, or at least win some games. morey realizes that hes a seller, and not a buyer, and therefore didnt wan6t to pay all that much money for lin

  96. JK47

    StatsTeacher:
    Reminds me of Golden State’s idiocy that initially lost Lin — they offered $42 mil to DeAndre Jordan, which the Clip’s waited about 2 nanoseconds to match as it was $7 mil less than they were willing to go.Houston’s offer is great for Dolan’s bottom line, it’s only 1 yearof risk (year 3 at $9 mil), it’s a very tame offer.And Kidd at $3 mil per, what is wrong with this board? — the Knicks made out like bandits on these 2 deals.

    Yeah, when you think about it, the Lin/Kidd PG tandem will cost $8M, $8M and $12M over the next three years. Not bad.

  97. JC Knickfan

    Kidd possible S&T deal would make Glen look like Genius we haven’t seen GM in long while. Now question is Dallas will take TD or some non-guarantee contracts back with 3 million in cash. As long we don’t include any draft picks..

  98. ephus

    The Rockets offer to Lin makes zero sense. Only 9.3 million in year 3 will not dissuade the Knicks from matching. 9.3 million team option in year 4 is seriously pro-team. $5.0/5.2/9.3/9.3 (team option) is not much better than the Knicks best possible offer 5.62/6.03/6.44/6.85. I am shocked that Lin signed that offer sheet. For an extra 1.5 million over the first three years of the contract, Lin is giving the Knicks an option that gives the Knicks the opportunity to save over $6 million in year 4.

  99. New Guy

    ruruland:
    Let’s remember this, the single biggest reason the Knicks had to dig ou of such a huge hole last year was spot-up shooting….

    Kidd will give you 20-25 as both a spot-up threat and converter.

    I would argue that second biggest weakness last year was the inability to consistently spread touches, which is a complex problem…

    Kidd’s passing helps that a lot, too.

    This is an indisputable fact.

    Having Kidd at age 42 will suck, but are we really losing any flexibility?

  100. maxwell_3g

    JC Knickfan: I expecting it also, but from Toronto or Net if they lost D-Will.
    Damn I would given odds to anyone that RFA Toronto would given offer sheet would be Lin not Fields.

    i think that is why lin was hesitant to sign. i think he assumed that toronto would come with more but they took themselves out with the lowry trade today (and also signing landry to that reidiculous offer sheet). basically lin cost himself money by not signing with toronto in the beginning, because i think they would have offered 4 years, 35 mill with no option

  101. jon abbey

    OK, now sign Smith, Novak, Jeffries, and maybe a veteran front court guy, get Shumpert healthy, and let’s go to war.

  102. thenamestsam

    People are pretty down on Morey. I think he’s in a very tough situation. His owners have specifically told him that they did not want to bottom out, and they wanted him to rebuild without hitting that low point. That’s incredibly hard to do for an NBA franchise in a non-destination locale. He has done a great job building assets and maintaining cap space so that he has been in a position to acquire every single star player who has moved in the last few years, all while remaining competitive for a playoff spot in a very tough conference. He didn’t strike out with Melo, or Howard, or Bosh because he didn’t have the assets. He struck out because stars don’t want to play in Houston. They want to play in NY and LA and Miami. It’s very easy for arm chair critics who aren’t even fans of that team to say that they should tear it down and try to hit a lottery home run, but losing sucks and I can’t blame the organization for not wanting to go through that. There’s no guarantees that going that route ends anywhere good. You can easily end up the Bobcats instead of the Thunder.

    As for this offseason his moves have been admittedly puzzling, but I don’t see this one being that odd. They know there’s a 99.9999% Knicks will match, but it costs them nothing except one day of work. Even if the payoff is very small (an increased tax payment from the Knicks in two years and a .0001% chance at Lin) why WOULDN’T they do it? I only wonder why they didn’t max him out completely.

  103. StatsTeacher

    It almost makes you wonder if Lin is taking less money on purpose to help the Knicks — given the solid 3 year deal he’ll get and all the endorsements he wants, his situation has changed a bit since last Xmas (waived by Rocket’s on Xmas Eve)

    ephus:
    The Rockets offer to Lin makes zero sense.Only 9.3 million in year 3 will not dissuade the Knicks from matching. 9.3 million team option in year 4 is seriously pro-team.$5.0/5.2/9.3/9.3 (team option) is not much better than the Knicks best possible offer 5.62/6.03/6.44/6.85.I am shocked that Lin signed that offer sheet. For an extra 1.5 million over the first three years of the contract, Lin is giving the Knicks an option that gives the Knicks the opportunity to save over $6 million in year 4.

  104. ephus

    thenamestsam: Even if the payoff is very small (an increased tax payment from the Knicks in two years and a .0001% chance at Lin) why WOULDN’T they do it? I only wonder why they didn’t max him out completely.

    But that is the point. Even if they wanted to max out the Knicks tax payment, the Rockets did not drive the Knicks price up as high as they could. At a minimum, why not put the 4.5% raise on to the team option for year 4?

  105. KnickfaninNJ

    Frank: You know what does look bad though?
    Coming in 15th in the league year after year.
    Trying to get Melo and striking out.
    Trying to get Howard and striking out.
    Letting Dragic walk for what is a pretty reasonable $ amount.
    Trading Lowry for Gary Forbes and an “innovative” 1st round pick.
    Drafting 14 PFs in the last 2 years.
    Having Earl Boykins be your starting PG in 12-13.
    Getting used by Jeremy Lin to squeeze some money out of the NYK.

    It’s been a bad offseason for Morey.

    All true

  106. New Guy

    ephus: But that is the point.Even if they wanted to max out the Knicks tax payment, the Rockets did not drive the Knicks price up as high as they could.At a minimum, why not put the 4.5% raise on to the team option for year 4?

    It seems their motivation was simply to make Lin a fair offer. They didn’t make the Knicks do anything they wouldn’t do themselves. Fair play to Morey. He shouldn’t b e killed for this, it was a responsible offer.

  107. Jafa

    Frank:
    So can the vocal few that were killing Grunwald for allowing the market to set his price agree that maybe our FO finally knows what it is doing?

    We simply got lucky that Toronto didn’t make an offer.

  108. BigBlueAL

    Yeah good point. The Rockets were obviously worried that giving Lin a way over the market/backloaded contract wouldve made the Knicks seriously think hard about not matching and leaving them stuck with a contract they wouldnt want to pay themselves. They gave Lin what was a pretty fair contract with a poison pill that isnt unreasonable and if for some reason the Knicks dont match the Rockets have no problem paying themselves.

  109. danvt

    New Guy: It seems their motivation was simply to make Lin a fair offer. They didn’t make the Knicks do anything they wouldn’t do themselves. Fair play to Morey. He shouldn’t b e killed for this, it was a responsible offer.

    I agree, you gotta be careful what you ask for because you may get it.

  110. gjknick

    Go Glen the GM! If he can turn the Kidd deal into a S&T using TD and Gadzooks that would allow us to keep the mini mid, that would be amazing. But I’ve seen some talk of a pupu platter including JJ and Jorts and those guys serve as good frontcourt depth. I’m not so quick to want to trade em away.

  111. ephus

    This offer was feeble, particularly when compared to the Asik contract. By pushing Asik to $15 million in year 3, the Rockets created an opportunity to actually get him. It sounds as if Morey was tied to offering Lin no more than he offered Dragic. I guess Aaron Brooks will be the next to receive the same offer.

  112. Brian Cronin

    Yeah, it does look like they couldn’t go past the Dragic deal. The Asik deal, as you noted, was designed to make it impossible for Chicago to match while the Lin deal is not like that.

  113. StatsTeacher

    Of course Reggie Miller on NBATV just said the Knicks won’t match (!!!) and that Kidd is a bit of a question mark as a full time point guard. He also hoped the chemistry between Kidd and Chandler can be as good as it was (???). Then CWebb came on and droned about Drajic is really good but not good enough to be the man in PHO. NBATV needs a S&T on those idiots.

  114. BigBlueAL

    StatsTeacher:
    Of course Reggie Miller on NBATV just said the Knicks won’t match(!!!) and that Kidd is a bit of a question mark as a full time point guard.He also hoped the chemistry between Kidd and Chandler can be as good as it was (???).Then CWebb came on and droned about Drajic is really good but not good enough to be the man in PHO.NBATV needs a S&T on those idiots.

    The Sportscnter anchor when talking about Kidd/Lin tonight kept making it seem like Kidd’s signing meant the Knicks were gonna let Lin go despite the fact the actual article on their own website mentions Kidd going to NY in part to mentor Lin.

  115. StatsTeacher

    Exactly. Maybe the Talking Heads can’t read?

    BigBlueAL: The Sportscnter anchor when talking about Kidd/Lin tonight kept making it seem like Kidd’s signing meant the Knicks were gonna let Lin go despite the fact the actual article on their own website mentions Kidd going to NY in part to mentor Lin.

  116. KnicksFanInVA

    ESPN reporting Brandon Roy has agreement with TWolves. How is this possible? Wouldn’t Roy have to sit out a year before coming out of retirement for another team?

  117. StatsTeacher

    I believe he was waived, which means no. Portland waived everyone a while back, including Oden, their Cheerleaders and their fans too. . . . . . . .

    KnicksFanInVA:
    ESPN reporting Brandon Roy has agreement with TWolves. How is this possible? Wouldn’t Roy have to sit out a year before coming out of retirement for another team?

  118. JC Knickfan

    Given that no state tax in Texas, Goran really didn’t want play in Houston, huh?

    So what over/under Scott Machado might be Houston starting PG day 1?

  119. ess-dog

    I’m not so sure I like the Kidd deal turning into a s&t. We can keep our pu pu platter and try to swing a deal for an unrestricted or an unwanted restricted, Sessions (who is moot now) or Mayo for instance. That platter gives up more flexibility… up to 6.2 mil right? Using part of it on Kidd only gives us the mini mid for someone else…

    Btw 9 mil is a lot of beans for an assistant coach who plays a few minutes a night. Although even at 39, Kidd is better than Felton aka the dog doo platter.

  120. JC Knickfan

    ESPN Stats & Info ?@ESPNStatsInfo
    Of 102 players who attempted 90+ jumpers off the dribble last season, only Steph Curry & Steve Nash shot better than Jeremy Lin (47.9 pct).

    As long as he can stay healthy which give his style play is the big question mark, I think Lin going to be good.

  121. massive

    Apparently, LA is willing to trade Bynum for Howard without assurance of him resigning there for the long term. I think a team built around Reddick, Anderson, and Bynum looks good. But, what if things go south in Orlando and Bynum decides to tell the front office he won’t resign there long term? I wonder if the Knicks would consider Bynum for Chandler in that scenario.

  122. Mike Kurylo

    ruruland: No, I also disagree with this. Even if you didn’t know anything about how guys act and the small group dynamics of a locker room (and reporters do they just don’t report it directly) you can tell who leaders are and who is respected by watching closely over a long season……

    You can also tell who is organizing and directing the offense, both qualities Kidd is top notch….

    Michael Jordan was such a great leader in Chicago, but he was mediocre (at best) in that department in Washington.

    With regards to leadership, how do we know who has it? How do we know how long it lasts? How do we know if it’s transferable? I’ve seen guys in business excel with one group of people, then fail miserably with a different group. Wouldn’t it be reasonable to assume the same apply to sports? Couldn’t a player be a great leader in one city, but a different lockerroom, coaching staff, etc. diminish his ability to improve his teammates?

    With regards to leadership, it’s impossible to separate from production. LeBron James: great basketball player or great leader? I know the former is true, but the latter I’d just be guessing. (And I’m sure the opinion on that diverges – maybe not here but among general NBA fans – and certainly that has changed over the course of his career.)

  123. Brian Cronin

    I like how the Rockets first helped the Knicks by cutting Lin in the first place and now they help the Knicks by signing him to such a reasonable contract.

  124. massive

    I wonder which is more valuable at this point, a S&T or the mini-MLE? I think the S&T would be more valuable since it applies to players already under contract. You never know, Orlando might want to blow the whole thing up and give us J.J. Reddick for our un-guaranteed deals. New Orleans might match EG’s deal and want to shed Jarrett Jack’s deal. I think Grunwald should use the mini-MLE for Kidd unless Camby wants that $3 million.

  125. Brian Cronin

    The problem with Camby is that he still thinks he can start. And heck, he’s probably right. And if he is looking at teams where he would come off of the bench, Miami can offer $3 million as well and while he wouldn’t start, he sure would play a lot.

  126. massive

    Brian Cronin:
    The problem with Camby is that he still thinks he can start. And heck, he’s probably right. And if he is looking at teams where he would come off of the bench, Miami can offer $3 million as well and while he wouldn’t start, he sure would play a lot.

    Why wouldn’t he start? LeBron doesn’t want to play the 4 spot long term, which means Bosh will run the 4, making a need for a true 5.

  127. Brian Cronin

    I’d imagine they’d stick with Haslem and Bosh as the big men in the starting lineup, but fair enough, I guess Camby could slide in there. Then even more reason why the Knicks would need to beat the mini-MLE if they have any hope of bringing Camby back to New York (as much as I would like to see it).

    Kenyon Martin, by the way, could be had for the mini-MLE. And, of course, Anthony Randolph should be able to be signed for less than that. ;)

  128. Robtachi

    Does ESPN have any NBA columnist with a shred of credibility? Every time Chris Broussard presents the vague possibility of the Knicks not wanting to match an offer for Lin, I become more and more convinced he and the rest of their news staff has lost touch with reality.

  129. Robtachi

    Also, isn’t it fairly academic at this point that the Mavs go hard after Ramon Sessions now that Kidd has walked away? He’s by far the best remaining available PG on the FA market, wants to start, which they can offer him, and doesn’t need to be a true distributor in an offense with Dirk, since that’s not his strongest area anyway.

  130. RastaPappa

    So Lin has accepted tree-year offer sheet from Rockets. Nice, very nice. 40 millions and now do we really have to match now? Has he ever told that he wants to be Knicks and with Woodson?

  131. dsi

    I don’t buy into the whole mentoring thing. If Lin needs coaching from a veteran point guard, find a coach (not a player) who can be 100% focused on Lin.

  132. bob cook

    There was great interest in Nash. Many on the forum wanted to (a) pay a large 3 year contract and (b) give up Shump and others. But other NBA teams outbid even that. Now a lot of bitching about Kidd. A great player but now too old. What is up with that? Kidd is the same age as Nash. I like the Kidd signing as a back up and (yes) a mentor. Nash would have been a pg controversy who costs us a bunch and whose injury risk is much higher because he’s asked to play starter’s minutes. So my conclusion is that anyone who pours asparagus on the Kidd signing but loved the prospect of getting Nash need to explain why they are so bone headed.

  133. Mike Kurylo

    dsi:
    I don’t buy into the whole mentoring thing.If Lin needs coaching from a veteran point guard, find a coach (not a player) who can be 100% focused on Lin.

    Right. Player to player mentoring is overblown. Remember all the murmurs out of Green Bay that Brett Favre was too selfish to tutor Aaron Rodgers? Rodgers turned out fine. Then look at Brett Favre – who was his mentor? Chris Miller? Billy Joel Tolliver? Don Majkowski? He never had a veteran player mentor, and again I think his career turned out fine without one.

  134. jon abbey

    Robtachi:
    Does ESPN have any NBA columnist with a shred of credibility? Every time Chris Broussard presents the vague possibility of the Knicks not wanting to match an offer for Lin, I become more and more convinced he and the rest of their news staff has lost touch with reality.

    Hollinger has gotten a lot better in the last year or two, he’s generally very good now.

  135. jon abbey

    Mike Kurylo: Right. Player to player mentoring is overblown. Remember all the murmurs out of Green Bay that Brett Favre was too selfish to tutor Aaron Rodgers? Rodgers turned out fine. Then look at Brett Favre – who was his mentor? Chris Miller? Billy Joel Tolliver? Don Majkowski? He never had a veteran player mentor, and again I think his career turned out fine without one.

    this is an unusual situation, a young and inexperienced PG given the keys to a pretty good team with massive expectations in NYC.

    I don’t think most professional athletes need a mentor (although I argued hard for NY to hire an assistant coach specifically for Shumpert last year, and I think Darrell Walker and Allan Houston ended up really helping him), but this is a rare scenario where I think Kidd can help Lin.

  136. Frank

    Mike Kurylo: Right. Player to player mentoring is overblown. Remember all the murmurs out of Green Bay that Brett Favre was too selfish to tutor Aaron Rodgers? Rodgers turned out fine. Then look at Brett Favre – who was his mentor? Chris Miller? Billy Joel Tolliver? Don Majkowski? He never had a veteran player mentor, and again I think his career turned out fine without one.

    Just like most things, I think making a blanket statement about the usefulness of player mentoring is not particularly useful. Maybe Favre didn’t sit down with Rodgers every 12 minutes to discuss things, but Rodgers got to sit and watch how one of the all-time greats prepares for games, what kinds of questions he asks in meetings, how he leads a team. All this can be done even without Favre sitting down for kumbaya talks.

    I’m sure some players don’t need mentoring to become great (although one could argue that maybe LBJ could really have benefited from it rather than being surrounded by yes-men his entire time in Cleveland). But as great as Lin looked in big spots, on national TV against the Lakers or NBA champion Mavs, he looked like a deer in the headlights against Miami in that pre-ASB game. That’s the ideal time to have a guy like Kidd – come in, take over the offense, let him settle down. There is no defense that Kidd hasn’t seen yet, and he won’t get rattled because of some aggressive traps.

    Re: mentoring from coaches – IMHO there is a big difference between having a coach that you respect mentoring you and having a living legend that you admire mentoring you. Both may be useful, but, again IMHO, hearing from a guy who actually LIVED it makes a difference.

    The other thing I love about this move is that Kidd has no illusions of grandeur here – he’s here to be a backup and mentor to Lin – no more, no less, no Sanchez-Tebow dynamic.

  137. Nick C.

    Kidd could be good, but I recall all the talk of how Marbury would or was benefitting by having HOF PGs to learn from in Isaiah and Wilkens. We all know how that turned out. I don’t think you can just fluff that off with something along the lines of “Marbury ate vaseline.” Crawford would always have comments about being coachable or whatnot but come gametime and it was the same old same old. Like most things it depends on the individuals.

  138. Frank

    Also, on a more practical note – our non-Lin PGs shot 80 for 287 from 3 point range last year, many of which were wide open. That’s 28.8%. Even if Kidd shoots only 35% from 3 point range, that’s a big difference. If you figure he will shoot about 200 3′s this year, he’ll make 70 =210 points. Our previous incarnations of PGs would only have made 200*0.288 = 57.6 3′s = 173 points. That’s a 37 point swing or basically 1/2 a point per game, purely from PG shooting. Not sure how to figure Pythagorean wins, but that has to be worth on the order of 2-3 wins, not even counting the other things that Kidd will do? 2-3 wins would have put us into the 6 seed against Indiana this past year, and who knows what would’ve happened then?

  139. jon abbey

    Nick C.:
    Kidd could be good, but I recall all the talk of how Marbury would or was benefitting by having HOF PGs to learn from in Isaiah and Wilkens. We all know how that turned out.I don’t think you can just fluff that off with something along the lines of “Marbury ate vaseline.” Crawford would always have comments about being coachable or whatnot but come gametime and it was the same old same old. Like most things it depends on the individuals.

    exactly, and Lin and Kidd seem to be ideal for this kind of relationship. it’s not like you hear about ‘mentoring’ in the NBA very often, but in this case, all else being relatively equal for reserve PGs, I think Kidd brings a bit extra to the table.

  140. Mike Kurylo

    jon abbey: Lin and Kidd seem to be ideal for this kind of relationship.

    Maybe. And maybe not. It could happen. Or a million of the things that separate people could happen as well. Lin doesn’t like the way Kidd chews his food. Kidd can’t stand that Lin takes up both arm rests on the plane. People are strange creature. You know those two friends that you like that annoy the shit out of each other. It could be Kidd and Lin. Or they could be best buddies.

  141. Mike Kurylo

    Frank: Just like most things, I think making a blanket statement about the usefulness of player mentoring is not particularly useful. Maybe Favre didn’t sit down with Rodgers every 12 minutes to discuss things, but Rodgers got to sit and watch how one of the all-time greats prepares for games, what kinds of questions he asks in meetings, how he leads a team. All this can be done even without Favre sitting down for kumbaya talks.

    And where did Favre learn such a thing? The Majik Man?

    Again what you’re saying could be true. Or it could be nice copy for sportswriters. We don’t know. It’s all speculation.

  142. Dan Panorama

    Nick C.:
    Kidd could be good, but I recall all the talk of how Marbury would or was benefitting by having HOF PGs to learn from in Isaiah and Wilkens. We all know how that turned out.I don’t think you can just fluff that off with something along the lines of “Marbury ate vaseline.” Crawford would always have comments about being coachable or whatnot but come gametime and it was the same old same old. Like most things it depends on the individuals.

    Come on. We’re comparing Jeremy Lin — universally considered a humble, hardworking good guy — with legendary prima donna Stephon Marbury? We’re comparing Jason Kidd, who’s been basically universally loved by his teammates and coaches for 18 seasons to a coach/GM who, in addition to being considered a bit of a jackass as a player, was in the midst of what we now know was an impending psychotic breakdown with the Knicks? It could not work out, but seriously. Apples and oranges doesn’t do it justice. Apples and Toasters or something.

  143. Z

    jon abbey: exactly, and Lin and Kidd seem to be ideal for this kind of relationship. it’s not like you hear about ‘mentoring’ in the NBA very often, but in this case, all else being relatively equal for reserve PGs, I think Kidd brings a bit extra to the table.

    I don’t know if “mentor” is the right word for it. The way I see it, Kidd is an all-time great PG with a ring. That’s a lot of muscle backing up Lin to keep the vets around him in line.

  144. Brian Cronin

    I’d love to see Lou Williams in New York. Did Philly seriously just give up on him? I know Nick Young is instant offense but man…is he really worth losing Brand and Lou Williams!?

  145. jon abbey

    Mike Kurylo: Maybe. And maybe not. It could happen. Or a million of the things that separate people could happen as well. Lin doesn’t like the way Kidd chews his food. Kidd can’t stand that Lin takes up both arm rests on the plane. People are strange creature. You know those two friends that you like that annoy the shit out of each other. It could be Kidd and Lin. Or they could be best buddies.

    I know, you’re not a fan of anything you can’t quantify. unfortunately, since basketball isn’t especially quantifiable as of yet, that would leave us little to talk about here, which maybe is why you don’t post much here anymore.

  146. Mike Kurylo

    jon abbey: I know, you’re not a fan of anything you can’t quantify. unfortunately, since basketball isn’t especially quantifiable as of yet, that would leave us little to talk about here, which maybe is why you don’t post much here anymore.

    Just like with veteran presence, you’re taking two things that sound reasonable and trying to fit them together. And just like veteran presence you’re wrong. I do a lot for this site behind the scenes (ask Jim & Rob), this has become a more complicated task than it was than when I first started, and I don’t have the free time I did 8 years ago. Also my commenters are for the most part intelligent, and most likely someone will bring up the same point as I would have. So often I don’t feel the need to comment as much.

  147. jon abbey

    “Jason is the type of guy who will take someone under his wing. He’s not one of the guys who sees a young guy as a threat. He wants to teach and coach. It will be huge for Jeremy Lin. He can sit and break down tape with him. Bring him to the side in huddles and really help him out.”-Tyson Chandler, in today’s NY Post

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