Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Tuesday, October 21, 2014

It’s Official: Knicks Acquire Tyson Chandler, Amnesty Chauncey Billups

Two Media Releases from the Knicks.

The first:

NEW YORK, December 10, 2011 – New York Knickerbockers Senior Vice President, Basketball Operations and Interim General Manager Glen Grunwald announced today that the team has acquired center Tyson Chandler via sign-and-trade as part of a three-team trade. Ronny Turiaf, cash considerations and a 2013 second-round draft choice has been sent to the Washington Wizards and Andy Rautins has been sent to Dallas; Dallas sent a 2012 second-round draft choice to Washington and the draft rights to Ahmad Nivins and Giorgos Printezis to New York; Washington sent a conditional future second-round draft choice to Dallas.

“This is an important day for the New York Knicks,” Grunwald said. “Signing a player of Tyson’s caliber, with championship experience, to this roster, is an opportunity we could not pass up. His stellar play last season earned him league-wide recognition and helped lead his team to an NBA Championship.”

Chandler, 7-1, 225-pounds, holds career averages of 8.3 points, 8.8 rebounds, 1.35 blocks and 27.6 minutes in 662 games (465 starts) over 10 NBA seasons with Chicago, New Orleans, Charlotte and Dallas. He played a pivotal role in leading the Mavericks to the franchise’s first ever NBA title last season, averaging 8.0 points, 9.2 rebounds and 0.90 blocks in 21 postseason contests. In 74 regular season games (all starts), he averaged 10.1 points, 9.4 rebounds and 1.08 blocks over 74 games (74 starts) en route to NBA All-Defensive Second Team honors.

“Tyson will be the anchor to our defense,” Head Coach Mike D’Antoni said. “The trio of Amar’e Stoudemire, Carmelo Anthony and Tyson makes one of the most formidable frontlines in the entire league.”

The Hanford, CA-native was originally selected by the Los Angeles Clippers in the first round (second overall) of the 2001 NBA Draft prior to having his draft rights traded to Chicago with Brian Skinner in exchange for Elton Brand. He appeared in 53 postseason games (37 starts) and holds averages of 7.0 points, 8.1 rebounds and 1.10 blocks over 28.7 minutes. He also represented Team USA in both the 2007 and 2010 FIBA World Championships, winning Gold medals with both squads.

Turiaf, 6-10, 240-pounds, averaged 4.2 points on .632 shooting, 3.2 rebounds, 1.4 assists and 1.14 blocks over 17.8 minutes in 64 games (21 starts) last season. He was acquired from Golden State with forward Anthony Randolph, swingman Kelenna Azubuike and a 2012 second round draft pick in exchange for forward David Lee, via sign-and-trade, on Jul. 9, 2010.

Rautins, 6-4, 205-pounds, averaged 1.6 points 4.8 minutes in five games during his rookie campaign. He was selected by New York in the second round (38th overall) of 2010 NBA Draft.

Nivins, 6-9, 242-pounds, was selected by Dallas out of Saint Joseph’s University in the second round (56th overall) of 2009 NBA Draft. He spent the past three seasons playing overseas with Assignia Manresa (Spain) and Dexia Mons-Hainaut (Belgium).

Printezis, 6-7, 202-pounds, was selected by San Antonio in the second round (58th overall) of 2007 NBA Draft. His draft rights were traded to Toronto before he was sent to Dallas in exchange for Alexis Ajinca, a second-round draft pick and cash considerations on Jan. 24, 2011.

The second:

NEW YORK, December 10, 2011 – New York Knickerbockers Senior Vice President, Basketball Operations and Interim General Manager Glen Grunwald announced today that the team has waived guard Chauncey Billups, designating him as the club’s amnesty player.

Billups, 6-3, 210-pounds, averaged 16.8 points on .427 shooting, 5.4 assists, 2.6 rebounds over 32.1 minutes in 72 games (72 starts) with Denver and New York last season. Acquired by the Knicks on Feb. 22, 2011, Billups he averaged 17.5 points on .403 shooting, 5.5 assists and 3.1 rebounds over 31.6 minutes in New York

339 comments on “It’s Official: Knicks Acquire Tyson Chandler, Amnesty Chauncey Billups

  1. alsep73

    http://es.pn/vwWD2p

    Hollinger is apparently impressed by the Knicks’ decision to turn the Chandler into a sign-and-trade, but as my Insider subscription has lapsed, I don’t know why. I know copying-and-pasting most or all of the article is uncool (especially since Knickerblogger is an ESPN affiliate), but can someone sum up Hollinger’s main points in a few lines? I’m curious, especially since some here have accused him of anti-Knicks bias lately.

  2. jaredrutledge

    hollinger’s main points:

    1) the knicks don’t worry about money, so don’t worry about how much they spent on this deal
    2) centers are far more valuable than guards, so it’s good they spent on a center
    3) they retained MLE because it’s a sign-and-trade
    4) they can blow it up after 2014-15
    5) it was dumb to use billups team option and then amnesty him

  3. Spree8nyk8

    WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
    For teams considering claim on Chauncey Billups, he tells Y!: “A leader can be as disruptive as he can be productive..This is about me now.”

    wow, if that is the guy that Chauncey is then good riddance

  4. jaredrutledge

    yeah seriously, screw him. it’s not the knick’s fault he didn’t play that well after we acquired him.

  5. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Holy shit, Chauncey, what the fuck? I know it is a blow to your ego, but shit, dude, the Celtics dumped you before you finished your rookie season and you were the #3 pick!!! And you didn’t whine then. You got dumped by Toronto/Denver, you didn’t complain. Minnesota didn’t do a ton to keep you after your first good season, you didn’t complain then. You get cut to make room for one of the best centers in the game when you’re clearly in the late stages of your career and now you’re taking it personally? What the hell?

  6. jon abbey

    he’s not taking it personally, he wants to pick where he plays and he wants to make even more money if he can (as do we all). if no one claims him, he can go to waivers and double-dip. as someone just said on Twitter, these are the kind of quotes you’ll read from most guys who get amnestied (well, the ones who can still play anyway).

  7. bobneptune

    Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin):
    Holy shit, Chauncey, what the fuck? I know it is a blow to your ego, but shit, dude, the Celtics dumped you before you finished your rookie season and you were the #3 pick!!! And you didn’t whine then. You got dumped by Toronto, you didn’t complain. Minnesota didn’t do a ton to keep you after your first good season, you didn’t complain then. You get cut to make room for one of the best centers in the game when you’re clearly in the late stages of your career and now you’re taking it personally? What the hell?

    jesus guys…. he’s just forewarning the t wolves , kings and hornets not to claim him on waivers so he can go to miami.

    jeez!

  8. jon abbey

    Ken Berger says NY’s offer to Shawne Williams is for multiple years, not just one as earlier reported.

  9. JK47

    I don’t know how much more marginal value Billups would give the Heat. I guess he’s an upgrade over Mario Chalmers, but Chalmers was quite good in the playoffs last year and is way younger than Chauncey. They already seem to have a bunch of guys who can camp out beyond the arc and drain 3’s, so Chauncey seems a tad bit redundant for them, no?

  10. d-mar

    I’m really gonna miss Beardie, what an easy guy to root for and always a fun post game interview. Of course, he got hurt every other game, but I hope Wiz fans appreciate the guy. Good luck Pharaoh.

  11. yoda4554

    jaredrutledge:
    yeah seriously, screw him. it’s not the knick’s fault he didn’t play that well after we acquired him.

    Actually, between his acquisition and running into Dwight Howard’s leg, Billups was easily our best player, between the really ridiculous free-throw performances and the fact that he was just about the only person in our regular starting five who had anything like defensive instincts (though he’s too old and slow to use them as well as he once did).

  12. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Not sure they can afford Richardson after they sign Extra E. Or can they?

    They have the bi-annual exception, as well. If they sign Extra E for that, then they can get Richardson for the full one.

  13. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    I’m really gonna miss Beardie, what an easy guy to root for and always a fun post game interview. Of course, he got hurt every other game, but I hope Wiz fans appreciate the guy. Good luck Pharaoh.

    Absolutely agreed.

  14. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    jesus guys…. he’s just forewarning the t wolves , kings and hornets not to claim him on waivers so he can go to miami.

    jeez!

    I disagree. He let the Knicks know how unhappy he would be if they didn’t pick up his option when they traded for him (which is why it is weird seeing people rip on the Knicks for picking up the option – Billups made it clear that they had to), but he didn’t use rheteric like this.

  15. Jim Cavan (@JPCavan)

    Getting word that the Knicks are after J.J. Barea. Don’t have the money to sign him outright, so are working on “other ways” to land him.

    Woah.

  16. Spree8nyk8

    if billups thinks nobody is going to claim him, he’s an idiot. Some team will at least put in a minimum bid knowing that if he retires it costs them nothing, and if he doesn’t they get a cheap talented vet. And if nothing else they get a trade piece. He will not make it through waivers.

  17. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    What do you all think of signing JJ Barrea??

    While it is not a no-brainer, I personally would be exicted by it. I could see him and Toney also working as occasional back court partners.

  18. The Formerly-Congenial Cock Jowles, #1 Gentleman

    I read Chauncey’s whole diatribe, and I agree with him completely. The guy is still an unbelievable shooter, and even if he’s not Nash, he should be able to choose where he goes.

    The guy has spent thirteen years in the league. That’s long enough for him to assert that he should have the freedom to choose.

    There’s not a single person on this board (academics excluded, perhaps) who would be happy if he were unable to choose where he lived and for whom he worked. Only in professional sports do we view the labor as “spoiled” or “disruptive” for wanting to have some say over where and how and with whom they live their professional lives. I really don’t get it at all.

    Thirteen year veteran. No reason he should be forced to play as a backup “mentor” if there are teams out there (Heat included) who could use him as a starter.

  19. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Of course not. I bear him absolutely no ill will at his desire to want to get through waivers so that he can decide where to play. My problem is his rheteric. It is outrageous rhetoric, and not becoming of a thirteen-year veteran.

  20. The Formerly-Congenial Cock Jowles, #1 Gentleman

    Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin): While it is not a no-brainer, I personally would be exicted by it. I could see him and Toney also working as occasional back court partners.

    How is Barea any good? Career .522 TS%, doesn’t steal, doesn’t rebound. I don’t get it. He’s below-average in almost every measurable.

  21. The Formerly-Congenial Cock Jowles, #1 Gentleman

    Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin):
    Of course not. I bear him absolutely no ill will at his desire to want to get through waivers so that he can decide where to play. My problem is his rheteric. It is outrageous rhetoric, and not becoming of a thirteen-year veteran.

    I would characterize it as forceful and clear, not outrageous. When you have to be assertive, you go ahead and be assertive. And he’s absolutely right that a leader can be as disruptive as he can be productive. Remember when Howard criticized Van Gundy’s coaching style? He’s saying, “I’m not going to be happy if X, Y, and Z pick me up, and if I’m unhappy, it’s going to be bad for your club. Fact is fact.” Better than saying, “I’ll do my best no matter what, sir,” and actually being miserable.

  22. Will the Thrill

    If these “other ways to land him” include parting with TD, Fields, or especially Shump Shump, I can’t see them going through with it.

  23. max fisher-cohen

    Please no Jason Richardson. He is just a larger Bibby — no defense, only valuable as a spot up shooter. As evidenced by his collapse post-trade, his career was on life support via Steve Nash.

    Also, no Barea. He’s way overvalued now because he got hot in the playoffs.

    We need a guy who can guard Lebron James and Paul Pierce. Mbah-a-Moute is a bigger and stronger version of Bruce Bowen. I’d consider him. If he can make the corner three, he can be a really valuable player.

    Other options: Can we steal Wilson Chandler back for the MLE seeing as he won’t be back until March?

    Thaddeus Young… Out of our price range?

    Tayshaun Prince… Can play defense and spread the floor. Injuries somewhat a concern, but he played 78 games last season and never missed a game from 03-08.

    Andrei Kirilenko… Similar to Prince: health concerns, but also passes, defends and can spread the floor . He and Chandler would more than cover up Stoudemire’s defensive shortcomings.

    JR Smith… If Douglas starts, Smith could make a nice 6th man scorer. Again, he may not be able to come over until March. Also, he’s crazy.

  24. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    His assist rate is basically double Toney’s and higher than Billups’ last five years. Plus, 35% from three on four threes a game is not bad.

  25. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    If these “other ways to land him” include parting with TD, Fields, or especially Shump Shump, I can’t see them going through with it.

    Oh yeah, that’d be ridiculous.

  26. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Thaddeus Young… Out of our price range?

    Didn’t he sign already?

    Tayshaun Prince… Can play defense and spread the floor. Injuries somewhat a concern, but he played 78 games last season and never missed a game from 03-08.

    He definitely already signed (re-signed with Detroit for four years/$27 million).

  27. twoseam2007

    Jim Cavan (@JPCavan):
    Getting word that the Knicks are after J.J. Barea. Don’t have the money to sign him outright, so are working on “other ways” to land him.
    __________________

    Tell me you are kidding right?! NOOOOOO!!!!!
    Woah.

  28. The Surprisingly yet Cautiously Optimistic C. J., #1 Gentleman

    Yeah, but 35% isn’t very good either. To reach the Finals, you need high efficiency players, not serviceable ones. I know that sounds strange (since Barea just won a title with Dallas) but he was only average throughout the year. Toney’s a better shooter, is larger, and should only improve with experience. Barea’s too old for a guy (probably) under six feet.

  29. d-mar

    mase:
    baron davis, mike bibby, jj barea,
    tough choices?

    To me, that’s not a tough choice (if there is one) Stats aside (and I know that’s blasphemous on this site), seeing is believing, and what Barea did in the Finals against the Heat (one of the best if not the best defenses in the NBA) was ungodly. And he did it night after night. Sign me up for JJ.

  30. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    They’re saying TD might be involved in a Barrea trade.

    !$#@!

    Oh, okay, in that case, yes, that would be insanity. That makes no sense. I would be distraught at that move.

  31. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    I love how the front office is trying to get rid of all the good will they got out of the Chandler signing in a day. First Bibby and now possibly Toney for Barea? Craziness.

  32. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    rip anyone?

    RIP the sanity of the Knicks’ front office if they deal Toney for Barea.

  33. max fisher-cohen

    Man why did Prince resign with Detroit? That team needs to rebuild. Dumars is completely incompetent. In 1.5 years, Prince will be their new Rip Hamilton.

    Looks like you’re right – Young resigned. 5 yrs 43 million.

  34. Jim Cavan (@JPCavan)

    I mean, the only reasons I see them doing that are a) they get something additional in return (pick?), or b) they already believe, after 1.5 days of camp, that somehow Shumpert replicates what TD brought to the table.

    Let’s hope this is a false alarm.

  35. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    I mean, the only reasons I see them dong that are a) they get something additional in return (pick?), or b) they already believe, after 1.5 days of camp, that somehow Shumpert replicates what TD brought to the table.

    Let’s hope this is a false alarm.

    If they throw in Dirk, maybe.

    Seriously, though, the notion that $5 million is not enough for JJ freakin’ Barea is an absurdity in of itself, but then to add in losing a good player for him? Ludicrous.

  36. Spree8nyk8

    nah man please please please don’t trade Toney. Good god man. We are on the verge of having something good, just gotta get through a few more moves without Dolan fucking it up. Please don’t trade Toney.

  37. Jim Cavan (@JPCavan)

    You can almost see Dolan in his leather chair, eight fingers of scotch disguised in a solo cup, watching Barea and pointing gleefully at the 120 inch TV screen and bouncing up and down, saying over and over, “I want THAT toy!”

  38. bobneptune

    JK47:
    I don’t know how much more marginal value Billups would give the Heat.I guess he’s an upgrade over Mario Chalmers, but Chalmers was quite good in the playoffs last year and is way younger than Chauncey. They already seem to have a bunch of guys who can camp out beyond the arc and drain 3?s, so Chauncey seems a tad bit redundant for them, no?

    seriously?

    2010-11 stats:

    chalmers… per = 10.3 ts% = .538

    billups….. per = 18.7 ts% = .617

    your witness….

  39. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Do we have the 5m exception or not? BC now Berman is saying we don’t.

    There apparently is debate over it. It all depends on whether the Chandler deal was made with the Knicks being under the cap or just over it. If it was the former, they don’t have the MLE. If it was the latter, they have it.

    Hollinger wrote a whole article saying that the latter was true. Larry Coon (who is usually right about these things) says the opposite, that the Knicks don’t have it.

  40. twoseam2007

    when i type in Barea on twitter, i keep seeing stupid comments about the knicks want him, but on my website twitter feed, not a single reporter has said anything about it (i have Adrian W., Alan Hahn, etc.)

  41. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    They are too far over the luxury tax line. They have to more or less rebuild their team.

  42. Jim Cavan (@JPCavan)

    SJK:
    Has the Barea rumor even been confirmed?

    twoseam2007: when i type in Barea on twitter, i keep seeing stupid comments about the knicks want him, but on my website twitter feed, not a single reporter has said anything about it (i have Adrian W., Alan Hahn, etc.)

    @ChrisMannixSI: Knicks have been in contact with J.J. Barea and are making a strong push to acquire him, source says.

    That’s pretty much it, at this point. I think Incarcerated Bob said the same thing.

  43. BigBlueAL

    Brian, Hollinger just tweeted he needs to correct his article because the Knicks dont have their full mid-level now.

  44. jon abbey

    dammit:

    johnhollinger John Hollinger
    Major brain cramp on my Chandler story – NY only has under-cap MLE. not the full one. Correction coming.

  45. Z

    If Bibby was the top FA signing of the Knicks, it would be worth bitching about. As it is, he can hit the 3 and run the P&R. That’s all we need, and if he does it well, we’ll be better off for it.

  46. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Brian, Hollinger just tweeted he needs to correct his article because the Knicks dont have their full mid-level now.

    Wow, that sucks. You’d think ESPN would have someone check his math before writing an article entirely based on an erroneous point. Well, that does explain why they can’t get Barea, as $2.5 is definitely not enough for him.

  47. Will the Thrill

    So if we have bibby, it means no Barea right? I’d rather have that than having to give up TD. Even though Bibby stinks.

  48. 2010

    John Hollinger: Major brain cramp on my Chandler story – NY only has under-cap MLE. not the full one. Correction coming. about 6 minutes ago

  49. Z

    jon abbey:
    dammit:

    johnhollinger John Hollinger
    Major brain cramp on my Chandler story – NY only has under-cap MLE. not the full one. Correction coming.

    Twitter claims another victory in it’s crusade to destroy journalism.

  50. Jim Cavan (@JPCavan)

    jon abbey:
    dammit:

    johnhollinger John Hollinger
    Major brain cramp on my Chandler story – NY only has under-cap MLE. not the full one. Correction coming.

    Which is why we’re “forced” to unload TD for J.J. Barea? Damnit, I need to stop thinking about that, lest it comes true.

  51. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    So if we have bibby, it means no Barea right? I’d rather have that than having to give up TD. Even though Bibby stinks.

    It sounds more like getting Bibby is making the Knicks feel like they can trade Toney for Barea.

    In other words, insanity.

  52. Jake S.

    Wait a minute, doesn’t the signing of Bibby obviate their need for Barea? Now they have a caddy for Toney. They’re not really going to have three guards who can’t guard anyone, right?

  53. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Wait a minute, doesn’t the signing of Bibby obviate their need for Barea? Now they have a caddy for Toney. They’re not really going to have three guards who can’t guard anyone, right?

    You would think, and yet…

  54. mase

    he isnt the second coming of Nash but nate isnt even a pg and TD is a decent 3 pt shooter, .37% 3 pt shooter…barea is a .355%

  55. Will the Thrill

    Now that we have Tyson Chandler, let’s trade all of our defensive players for players with minimal offensive gain and a huge defensive drop off! One defensive player is surely enough for any team.

  56. Thomas B.

    Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin): While it is not a no-brainer, I personally would be exicted by it. I could see him and Toney also working as occasional back court partners.

    I would not call that a “no-brainer.” He has some ability but I don’t see where he is demonstrably better than TD. At least TD tries to play good D. He’s actually not that bad of a ball hawk. He can get to the hole as well. Best of all, he knows the offense and is very cheap. Inexpensive, effective players are what this team needs. Not overpriced middling players like Barera. If there isnt a huge gap between Barera and Douglas, why bring in Barera? Especially if Anthony is going to run the offense anyway.

  57. Robert Silverman

    Everyone chill. One or two tweets doesn’t make the story true. The tweet said that Douglas was being ‘discussed.’

    That could easily mean that the Knicks were talking to Dallas about a sign and trade and Dallas said, “Sure. Give us Toney Douglas.” And the Knicks said, “No.”

  58. Ben R

    TD – did a solid job last season when he filled in for Billups. I know he struggled in the playoffs but he probably shouldn’t have been playing at all with his shoulder and was only gutting it out because we had no other options. I really want to see what he can do with a full training camp as the starter. He is a plus defender and a great 3pt shooter. He is exactly what we need. We don’t need a SSOL PG, playing pure SSOL with Melo is a waste and we just don’t have the personnel for it. D’Antoni is smart he can make this offense woork with TD. Please don’t trade him for a very good back up but ultimately mediocre PG in Berea.

  59. Jim Cavan (@JPCavan)

    Robert Silverman: That could easily mean that the Knicks were talking to Dallas about a sign and trade and Dallas said, “Sure. Give us Toney Douglas.” And the Knicks said, “No.”

    I hear ya. It just seems inconceivable that it could go down that way.

  60. Z

    mase:
    we need a PG who can move the ball in SSOL…

    I think SSOL is dead. It didn’t exist after the Anthony trade, and Chandler is not an SSOL player.

  61. Thomas B.

    Robert Silverman:
    Everyone chill. One or two tweets doesn’t make the story true. The tweet said that Douglas was being ‘discussed.’

    That could easily mean that the Knicks were talking to Dallas about a sign and trade and Dallas said, “Sure. Give us Toney Douglas.” And the Knicks said, “No.”

    I hope that was true.

  62. chastrio

    Does anyone have a salary breakdown of where the knicks actually sit at this point? I would think we have hardly any room left for manuvering. Yet we still have a possibility of a multi year deal for Shawne Williams and the low end of a MLE and are there any more spots open after that???

  63. Robert Silverman

    daJudge:
    The CBA seems to change when observed.

    The CBA and Heisenberg’s Uncertainly Principle in one line?

    That’s the early frontrunner for comment of the ’11-’12 season

  64. YJK2011

    Today I’m thankful, the Hornets said no to taking Amare for Chris Paul

    If the last twenty years have taught us anything, it’s that championship teams do not need great point guard play. Here are the starting point guards for the 20 NBA champions since 1991: John Paxson twice, BJ Armstrong, Kenny Smith twice, Ron Harper three times, Avery Johnson, Derek Fisher three times, Tony Parker, Chauncey Billups, Parker, Jason Williams, Parker, Rajon Rondo, Fisher two more times and a 38-year old Jason Kidd.

    Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/news/articles#ixzz1gB2fTYEU

  65. prezs2reprsntme

    hey big fan of the site havent ever commented. Just had to speak on Toney vs Barea real quick. I agree that we should not trade toney for JJ, but let me play devils advocate and mention some things:

    Toney has defensive TOOLS that barea cannot compete with. However, defense especially when it comes to guards is largely system based. Toney , for all his tools, is by most measures avg at defense because he gambles too much and does dumb things…(see pressuring rajon rondo 36 ft from the hoop consistently in the playoffs). Another example of guard defense being weird as a measure is Derrick Rose….known to be in his first 2 yrs a BAD defender, had a great system installed, and became a great defender? not at all. He improved and learned a system. For all of Toney’s tools, his Drtg was 111 and JJ’s was 109.

    And the other thing i’d like to point out—as a stat friendly site, i’d like to point to JJ’s 31.2 AST% compared to toney’s 19.5. JJ is a FAR better passer, and it’s not even close. And that was with more minutes per game and a higher usage rate than Toney.

    People misconceive JJ’s abilities a bit bc in the playoffs he was asked to play at 2 guard and he scored more, but hes not as much of a combo guard as toney.

    THE REAL DANGER in getting rid of toney is BIBBY getting more playing time that should go to Barea/Shump/anyone else.

  66. prezs2reprsntme

    for comparison on AST%, chauncey was a 27.5, Jameer Nelson is usually around 31-33, baron davis is usually around 34-37 (he just gets less assists cuz hes often asked to score on his teams) , the elite passers (rondo, cp3, calderon, etc) are in the mid high 40s. ok now i’m done.

  67. daJudge

    #98–reasonable arguments and great first post, but I would much prefer to stay with Tony. I actually liked the way he played last year and I believe he will improve. Sure, his passing leaves something to be desired at this juncture (with that team), but he goes strong to the hoop, plays hurt, IMO, does play tough D and can shoot.

  68. prezs2reprsntme

    last last last thing i will say, in the name of qualitative evidence haha.

    They are both young and both likely will improve. Why not take JJ’s playoff performance as a sign of improvement? It was not one round. He had spurts in each round, and big games against each team they faced.

    And in my mind i would like to imagine that the knicks plan, if they wanna trade toney douglas salary, is make room to get JJ on the cheap and still be able to get Baron davis if he clears waivers by warning bidding teams as chauncey is doing currently. just throwin it out there

  69. YJK2011

    @bobneptune – I agree. TD is a better player than Barea or Bibby. I don’t believe he makes much more than they would pay Barea because he’s on his rookie contract and making $1.2 mil this year with a team option for next year. I like Bibby as a Roger Mason replacement that’s all.

  70. Thomas B.

    With respect to Toney Douglas running the offense and the pick n’ roll:

    Last year you were looking at a 2nd year player playing with a very bad shoulder injury. So I’m going to say he is still in his learning curve. Now in order to run the pick n roll the right way, the forward has to set a decent pick. Check the comment on Amare last year; he never tried or learned to set the right kind of picks. He mostly stood in place then flashed. A pick requires contact, and Amare never really created that. When he played the PNR, he never actually set a pick.

    Douglas deserves a full training camp and at least 15 games before folks can start evaluating him in this new lineup. I’m thinking a healthy Douglas is really going to shock you. And in closing, if Anthony is going to play the point forward anyway, would’nt we want a point that can play defense and get to the hole? He is the youngest, cheapest (read easiest to move) point on the roster. I say you have to give him a real shot at it.

  71. Robert Silverman

    bobneptune: am i the only one who watched TD “run” the point last year?

    Toney as a starter last year: .522 FG .468 3FG .818 FT 29.0 MPG 13.9 PPG 1.5 Steals 5.7 APG

    I’m okay w/that. You aren’t?

  72. Spree8nyk8

    Toney Douglas is a better PLAYER. His merits as a pg may not be enough to simply say no vs Barea but his merits as an overall player are. Look we can pick up Nash in six months, hang onto Toney. I’m all for picking up anyone else that we can without moving anyone else. But, I think we are done making major moves right now. I really wanna see Toney with a good shoulder before we even contemplate moving him. Landry/Toney/Shump are all guys I am very anxious to see this year. The development of those guys is crucial. Now that we have our nucleus set I don’t wanna trade out anymore young talent. If we can get JJ here without moving one of those 3 then fine. But if not, good luck to you JJ.

  73. SeeWhyDee77

    twoseam2007:
    J.J. Barea is Nate Robinson 2.0

    DON’T SIGN HIM!!!

    No no no no NO!!! Nate for all his faults was great as a Knick. From outside..he was as close to cash as u could get on our roster. Fearless with the ball…No way should Barea be compared to him. I would say hell no to Barea unless he’s the last option. If Nate gets waived I’d go after him before I take a flier on having Barea. Like I said in an earlier Thread, if we can’t get Davis (problee be hard to do if other teams claim him if amnestied), then somehow someway try to entice Cleveland to give us Sessions for Rey and Ball Wilker. Otherwise I see no other viable options out there at the 1. So I guess we’ll see who gets amnestied..an I have no idea which other PG’s are still on the market, so I can’t say much about the FA grab bag. Hey..AI wants to return to the league. Would anyone take a flier on him to be our 6th?

  74. YJK2011

    I’d take a flier on AI in a NY minute. Unfortunately he’s been exiled from the league by Stern and the Billionaire Boys Club. Dolan will not want to go against the grain now that the league has bestowed him with the blessing of a few years of Donnie Walsh

  75. daJudge

    Yes, I second Thomas B. and Robert. Of course I’m fine with a back up for TD, but damn, give the kid a chance. Also, I totally agree with Thomas regarding setting a pick and running the PnR. That would be one of the areas I would like to see some scrappy play (hard picks) and proper execution. PnR is such an easy yet devastating play when done correctly. It’s simply designed to create a mismatch and easy shot. Anyone who plays hoop knows first hand that some guys set hard picks and roll properly and others set shitty picks and bail too soon. Love Amare, but he was a culprit in this regard. He actually looked raw at times and settled for crappy shots accordingly. Any intelligence regarding Chandler’s ability to execute PnR? BTW, is this D’Antoni’s team anymore? It doesn’t have that feel. I am not ripping him, but maybe there is a coaching change contemplated.

  76. prezs2reprsntme

    you cant point to Toney douglas NINE GAMES as a starter as credible statistical evidence and turn around and dismiss JJ Barea’s playoff impacts as a fluke. cmon. small sample size is small sample size.

  77. YJK2011

    The Chandler aquisition definitely warmed D’Antoni’s seat. The Knicks are close to having a roster worthy of Phil Jackson. I like D’Antoni but not more than seeing a ring in my lifetime

  78. YJK2011

    @prezs I think that most would argue, they are close enough that the knicks shouldn’t give up anything to acquire Barea

  79. Spree8nyk8

    It doesn’t matter if his sample size as a pg is small, trading Toney now would be trading him for good. And I don’t see the point in trading the better player away now when you can have Nash in six months. Give Toney a shot with Bibby as the backup and if it doesn’t work out then we try to get Nash in six months (or maybe even at the deadline). We have made so many moves already and ditching Toney at this point will be a mistake. It would be different if JJ was the PG of the future, but he’s not. He wasn’t even the starter for his team, he was the backup. We can do much better than JJ, maybe not right this minute, but definitely within six short months. We don’t need to ditch Toney right now. He is an X factor player and he has the heart of a lion. And while he definitely has some head scratching moments I think that he is certainly worth giving a shot to see where he is at right now.

  80. Spree8nyk8

    YJK2011:
    @prezs I think that most would argue, they are close enough that the knicks shouldn’t give up anything to acquire Barea

    I would have given up Rautins or Jerome Jordan, but thats it. Absolutely it. Sign for 2.5 or have a nice day.

  81. prezs2reprsntme

    @YKJ2011

    i’m fine with that, I agree. Young players usually make their biggest improvement in their third year, which toney is entering. That being said…

    I’d just like to see the arguments with evidence, instead of “just because.” For such a stat based site, the only valid evidence people have pointed as is that toney shoots 3% higher from 3. Everything else is just touchy feely emotional attachment to a knick draft pick.

  82. prezs2reprsntme

    @spree

    this is what im saying. Heart of Lion, X Factor is true…but is JJ not capable of that? Did you not see the playoffs? In the finals they lost when he lost confidence and won when he had it.

    I dont think these qualitative arguments are in any way the be all end all or dispositive at all…i just want some numbers to go with them regarding toney! lol

  83. Jake S.

    Amen. Barea couldn’t start over a 40-year-old Jason Kidd. The guy is what he is–a nice back-up point guard. In Toney, I trust (sort of).

  84. Robert Silverman

    prezs2reprsntme:
    you cant point to Toney douglas NINE GAMES as a starter as credible statistical evidence and turn around and dismiss JJ Barea’s playoff impacts as a fluke. cmon. small sample size is small sample size.

    Yes it is. I was just responding to bobneptune’s “Did anyone else watch TD as a starter last year” comment.

    As a starter, in an admittedly small sample size, he was very effective.

    That said, the difference I saw was that TD when he knew he was going to get 30mpg as a starter, wasn’t forcing his game nearly as much as he did when he came off the bench. As a sub, when he knew if he wasn’t a serious presence right away, he could end up playing as few as 10-15 mins, he rushed shots and gambled (in a bad way) on D.

    When he was starting, he let the game come to him. I really don’t want anything to do w/JJ Barea, mainly b/c I think Toney hasn’t hit his ceiling yet.

  85. daJudge

    When I see someone play well, I usually trust my judgment. I might look for metrics to support my perception/conclusion, not the other way around.

  86. Droidz1979

    Spree8nyk8: I would have given up Rautins or Jerome Jordan, but thats it.Absolutely it.Sign for 2.5 or have a nice day.

    I think they already gave up Rautins for Chandler so i guess that leaves us with Jerome Jordan or Balkman or any other scrub left on our line-up that is not named Fields or Douglas.

  87. Jafa

    On a minute detail outside of the big moves, does anyone have any info on the prospects we got from Dallas in the Chandler deal. Do they have any future promise?

    As for TD for Barea, here’s a novel concept for posters on this “Stats” Blog: Lets back up our arguments with stats. For example, TD vs. Barea over their careers:

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=douglto01&y1=2011&p2=bareajo01&y2=2011

    TS%:.547 vs .522 (edge TD)
    AST%: 18.5% vs 27.1% (edge Barea)
    TOV%: 10.5% vs 15.4% (edge TD)
    3P%: .375 vs .355 (edge TD)

    Or TD vs. Barea last season:

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=douglto01&y1=2011&p2=bareajo01&y2=2011

    TS%:.535 vs .534 (even)
    AST%: 19.5% vs 31.2% (edge Barea)
    TOV%: 10% vs 15.9% (edge TD)
    3P%: .373 vs .349 (edge TD)

    Looks like TD is slightly better, younger (24 vs 26) and cheaper. However, qualitatively, Barea brings championship experience to the table and that AST% gap is huge when you think of our front court that will need to be fed the ball a lot this year.

    Simply put, if the don’t make the trade, I will be fine. If the do make the trade, I will be fine as well.

  88. bobneptune

    Robert Silverman: Toney as a starter last year: .522 FG .468 3FG .818 FT29.0 MPG13.9 PPG 1.5 Steals 5.7 APG

    I’m okay w/that. You aren’t?

    i watched the playoffs last year, so no.

    TD is a very nice 2 guard in a 6’1″ body. i like his as a player, just not as the primary initiator of the offense. he did shoot the eyes out of the basket from 3 the last half of the year , without question.

    he has labrum repair in his shoulder and if you know anatomy, the shoulder is a complex weakly held in place joint and if he gets stoned running through a hard pick, he going to re-injure that joint. i think you are going to find him going through picks a little more gingerly from now on.

    barera, is absolutely impossible to keep out of the paint and creates all sorts of switching on his forays into the lane and is a willfull passer. that’s why he fits with the new knicks.

  89. Robert Silverman

    bobneptune: i watched the playoffs last year, so no.

    Wait, you didn’t think a 9-game sample was applicable, but a 3 game sample is?

    Barea’s got skills, but it’s in no way clear that he’s a serious upgrade over TD. For 4-5x the money, it’s a bad basketball move.

  90. Jafa

    Somebody mentioned waiting for Nash next year – I’m down with that, but the Chandler move showed me that the front office is done waiting and wants to win now.

    I think the Melo/STAT/Chandler front court compares favorably with Boston’s (PP/West/KG), Chicago’s (Deng/Boozer/Noah) and Miami’s (LBJ/Bosh/Eddy Curry). While trading for Barea does not upgrade our back court enough to the likes of Boston (Rondo, Allen), Chicago (Rose, whomever) and Miami’s (Wade, whomever), its may be better than just giving up on this year and hoping Nash comes next year.

  91. Jafa

    For arguments sake, am I alone in thinking that our competition in the East is Miami, Chicago and Boston? Those are the only teams I can see actually beating us in a playoff series as of right now.

  92. jon abbey

    Jafa:
    For arguments sake, am I alone in thinking that our competition in the East is Miami, Chicago and Boston?Those are the only teams I can see actually beating us in a playoff series as of right now.

    either Orlando or the Nets or anyone else with Dwight Howard shouldn’t be ignored.

  93. Spree8nyk8

    I don’t think you are grasping what I am saying prez. You are only comparing how well JJ would run the point vs Toney. And my argument is not based on that. My argument is that we can do better than both of them within six months. And six months from now if we can add Nash, Toney still has a role on this team and JJ does not. He is much more versatile. He is also a better defender. And while someone suggested that you can’t keep JJ out of the paint, he likewise can’t keep anyone else out of there either. And while Toney may only have a 9 game sample as a starting pg, it’s still a larger sample than JJ as far as I know. Did he start ANY games last year?

  94. nicos

    Thomas B.:
    Check the comment on Amare last year; he never tried or learned to set the right kind of picks.He mostly stood in place then flashed. A pick requires contact, and Amare never really created that.When he played the PNR, he actually set a pick.

    Amar’e rarely actually set a pick in Phoenix as well and Lee cut to the basket before contact more often than not when running the P & R with Duhon- that’s just how D’A runs it. It’s a timing play and it took Felton a little while to adjust but he eventually got there (until he started missing shots and everyone just laid off him). TD ran the P&R better with Turiaf- who actually would set a screen- than he did with Amar’e. One other concern with TD is he’s shown little aptitude for delivering the ball to the rim- lobs, etc… You’ve got two guys who love to go up and get it in Amar’e and Chandler (and now possibly Shumpert as well) and he’s going to need to develop that skill if the Knicks are going to take full advantage of what they’ve got.

  95. 2010

    I know its not very likely, but I could see a way that the Knicks could end up with CP3 next year: If a deal similar to the one Stern shot down sends Paul to Lakers without a front court and Howard ends up with the Nets. Paul might decide to opt out after the season and come to the Knicks.

    Its well known that the Knicks are a preferred team of his and he wants to play with Melo, and with Chandler. The Knicks are near the salary cap right now and will there next year too if they only sign guys to one year deals. The new CBA allows players to restructure their deals so if the front court and Paul are all willing to take less money, they can make it happen. Miami’s big 3 all took less to make room for Mike Miller and Battier just took less too.

  96. SeeWhyDee77

    Well..the Bibby deal is official so maybe he has SOMETHING left. I will admit this: He has always been good at tha P&R..but I’m still not a fan of this move. The only way I see it working is if TDDWTDD picks up and applies everything he learns/learned from Bibby/Billups. I would recommend movin Douglas for Sessions, but I can’t envision losing defense and shooting for a player who may be a better floor general but isn’t as good a defender or shooter- which we are now sorely lacking outside of Shump, Douglas and Chandler(not discounting Walker and Landry, but they are pretty much one dimensional rite now). Well Chandler can’t shoot and Shump takes bad shots but he’s got a good stroke on his Jumper. Maybe H20 gets him in the gym and helps his J. The good news is our 2 guard spot will be manned by the triumvirate of Landry/Shump/Walker..i’ll take that. Walker will problee get more burn at the 3 tho. With Jordan signed as well and if we can keep Extra E, I kinda like our rotation of Chandler-STAT (260 lbs now??? Wow..hope it doesn’t take his quickness)_Melo-Fields-Douglas-Extra E-Walker(Extra E may make him expendable)-Shump-Bibby-Jeffries with the other 2 rooks (Jordan, Harrelson) sprinkled in here an there. In a normal length season I would like our chances with that rotation in D’Antoni’e system..but in a shortened season??? Even more so. Remember the last time we had 2 all star scorers in a shortened season with a defensive anchor, and other guys to rebound? Not 2 mention guys who could score anplay D in spurts off the bench..hmmm..yup! Sure we lost becuz of Ewing’s injury/Charles Smith’s ineptitude/Duncan and Robinson’s greatness (or all 3 dependin on how u look at it..I blame Smith lol)..but we were in the finals. And the combo of Stat an Melo along with Chandler is just as good if not better than Spree/H20/Camby…

  97. xduckshoex

    Have TJ Ford or Delonte West signed yet? Neither one is perfect but I’d take either one of them on the cheap over Barea for the entire exception.

  98. The Surprisingly yet Cautiously Optimistic C. J., #1 Gentleman

    daJudge:
    When I see someone play well, I usually trust my judgment.I might look for metrics to support my perception/conclusion, not the other way around.

    This sounds like trolling. I’m reading Ian Kershaw’s Hitler biography, and he talks at length about how Hitler only read to support his already-established beliefs; anything else (which held a contrary viewpoint) was a “waste of time.” Now I’m not calling you Hitler, but I am calling you dumb if you actually approach science this way.

  99. Spree8nyk8

    LOL RGIII just showed his socks at the Heisman Ceremony. Blue superman socks complete with a red cape lol.

  100. Spree8nyk8

    Chauncey Billups absolutely lighting up the Knicks on twitter.

    Ian_OConnor Ian O’Connor
    Billups not sold on D’Antoni running ball thru Melo: “especially in Mike’s system, where the point guard is so important.” #Knicks
    4 minutes ago
    Ian O’Connor
    Ian_OConnor Ian O’Connor
    More Billups: “it’s like (the #Knicks) forgot all about the impact I did have on that team….”
    6 minutes ago
    Ian O’Connor
    Ian_OConnor Ian O’Connor
    More Billups: “If Im healthy vs Boston, we’ve got a really good chance in that series. But once I got hurt…
    7 minutes ago
    Ian O’Connor
    Ian_OConnor Ian O’Connor
    More Billups: “The whole deal with Denver was about Melo…But I dont think the #Knicks valued what else they got in the deal.”…
    8 minutes ago
    Ian O’Connor
    Ian_OConnor Ian O’Connor
    More Billups on #Knicks: “From the 1st day I got there it was about who was going to be next pt guard, w/o giving me a real chance…
    10 minutes ago
    Ian O’Connor
    Ian_OConnor Ian O’Connor
    Billups on #Knicks as title contender: “I think they are probably a couple of pieces short, but I wont say what those pieces r.”
    57 minutes ago
    Ian O’Connor
    Ian_OConnor Ian O’Connor
    Billups on possibly facing #Knicks in playoffs: “I would like a chance at them, I’ll tell u that much. I’d absolutely love that.”

  101. bobneptune

    Jake S.:
    Amen. Barea couldn’t start over a 40-year-old Jason Kidd. The guy is what he is–a nice back-up point guard. In Toney, I trust (sort of).

    you realize jason kidd is a lock first ballot hall of famer and likely the best facilitator in the history of the game. do you think your beloved TD would start over kidd if the rolls were reversed with barera?

  102. Spree8nyk8

    bobneptune: you realize jason kidd is a lock first ballot hall of famer and likely the best facilitator in the history of the game. do you think your beloved TD would start over kidd if the rolls were reversed with barera?

    No, but he could start over Barea

  103. Jim Cavan (@JPCavan)

    The Surprisingly yet Cautiously Optimistic C. J., #1 Gentleman: daJudge:
    When I see someone play well, I usually trust my judgment.I might look for metrics to support my perception/conclusion, not the other way around.

    This sounds like trolling. I’m reading Ian Kershaw’s Hitler biography, and he talks at length about how Hitler only read to support his already-established beliefs; anything else (which held a contrary viewpoint) was a “waste of time.” Now I’m not calling you Hitler, but I am calling you dumb if you actually approach science this way.

    Can’t say I’ve ever seen one accuse another of being “like Hitler” and accuse them of trolling at the same time. And the fact that you did with such a seemingly straight face makes it all the more incredible.

  104. Z-man

    The Surprisingly yet Cautiously Optimistic C. J., #1 Gentleman: This sounds like trolling. I’m reading Ian Kershaw’s Hitler biography, and he talks at length about how Hitler only read to support his already-established beliefs; anything else (which held a contrary viewpoint) was a “waste of time.” Now I’m not calling you Hitler, but I am calling you dumb if you actually approach science this way.

    You’re no #1 Gentleman…

  105. Spree8nyk8

    Wow Chauncey, there may not be any crying in Baseball, but apparently that doesn’t hold true for basketball. What a tirade. Gimme a break. I so hope the Bobcats claim this idiot.

  106. bobneptune

    2010:
    I know its not very likely, but I could see a way that the Knicks could end up with CP3 next year: If a deal similar to the one Stern shot down sends Paul to Lakers without a front court and Howard ends up with the Nets. Paul might decide to opt out after the season and come to the Knicks.

    Its well known that the Knicks are a preferred team of his and he wants to play with Melo, and with Chandler. The Knicks are near the salary cap right now and will there next year too if they only sign guys to one year deals. The new CBA allows players to restructure their deals so if the front court and Paul are all willing to take less money, they can make it happen. Miami’s big 3 all took less to make room for Mike Miller and Battier just took less too.

    you think melo and amar’e are going to take > 6million dollar haircuts next year so they can play with their friend?? this is the same melo that forced the knicks to dump their entire roster to denver, cause he had to get his money. now, he’s a bleeping philanthropist???

  107. xduckshoex

    Spree8nyk8:
    Wow Chauncey, there may not be any crying in Baseball, but apparently that doesn’t hold true for basketball.What a tirade.Gimme a break.I so hope the Bobcats claim this idiot.

    I was thinking a cold Canadian winter might cool him off a bit.

  108. Spree8nyk8

    Why is Melo always blamed for who the Knicks dumped? WE DID THAT, Melo never asked for it, DENVER DID. And did you really think that in the middle of telling Denver he wants to leave that he would tap them on the shoulder and say “oh, and can you make it be for less too?”

  109. Spree8nyk8

    xduckshoex: I was thinking a cold Canadian winter might cool him off a bit.

    I swear to god I hope some team bids on him and he retires so the Knicks don’t have to pay this punk at all.

  110. Jake S.

    Yes, I’m aware that Kidd is a first ballot hall-of-famer. But at 40 years old, he’s an above average point guard in the NBA (hey, we should all be that effective ten years past our prime). Barea is slightly less than that.

    Neither Douglas nor JJ is the solution at point guard, but it would be a mistake to surrender the latter (and his defense) when they can go after Nash in 6 months, or Baron Davis in 6 days.

  111. Jim Cavan (@JPCavan)

    By the way Cock Jowels, do me a favor and let me know if you ever stumble across this in the Kershaw book:

    “If, in the course of a thousand or two thousand years, science arrives at the necessity of renewing its points of view, that will not mean that science is a liar. Science cannot lie, for it’s always striving, according to the momentary state of knowledge, to deduce what is true. When it makes a mistake, it does so in good faith.” — Adolf Hitler

  112. bobneptune

    Spree8nyk8: No, but he could start over Barea

    that is your opinion and it is duly noted. as i previously said i like TD as a back up tweener. i don’t see the requisite point guard skill set that many of you see.

    barera is a better passer. he is a better penetrator. he creates havoc in the lane like that guy that causes the crashes in the car commercials. he forces defenses to rotate and switch like crazy causing mismatches everywhere. and he’s likely the quickest guy with the ball in the league. his biggest weakness (non physical on the ball defender) is ameliorated by having chandler back stopping the defense.

    the number one skill of a point guard is to initiate/facilitate the offense and that is TD’s weakest skill.

  113. Thomas B.

    daJudge:
    Yes, I second Thomas B. and Robert.Of course I’m fine with a back up for TD, but damn, give the kid a chance.Also, I totally agree with Thomas regarding setting a pick and running the PnR.That would be one of the areas I would like to see some scrappy play (hard picks) and proper execution.PnR is such an easy yet devastating play when done correctly.It’s simply designed to create a mismatch and easy shot.Anyone who plays hoop knows first hand that some guys set hard picks and roll properly and others set shitty picks and bail too soon. Love Amare, but he was a culprit in this regard.He actually looked raw at times and settled for crappy shots accordingly.Any intelligence regarding Chandler’s ability to execute PnR?BTW, is this D’Antoni’s team anymore?It doesn’t have that feel.I am not ripping him, but maybe there is a coaching change contemplated.

    Thank you.

    I was starting to wonder if I was the only one to notice Amare’s poor contact on the PNR. It was especially noticeable watching the difference between Amare and David Lee. Lee’s PNR play made Duhon look solid. Think about that…Duhon! Chandler did well on the PNR in the few time they ran it for him (from what I saw). The problem is that Chandler can’t sink a 15 footer like Amare or drive to the hole; he can only dunk pretty much.
    Oh well, we shall see.

  114. Z-man

    That’s some deep shit, Jim. I’m gonna pick up Bartlett’s and see if I can find any good Stalin quotes. Like Hollinger, both despots overvalued high-volume, low-efficiency shooting.

  115. Z-man

    Thomas B.: Thank you. I was starting to wonder if I was the only one to notice Amare’s poor contact on the PNR. It was especially noticeable watching the difference between Amare and David Lee. Lee’s PNR play made Duhon look solid. Think about that…Duhon! Chandler did well on the PNR in the few time they ran it for him (from what I saw). The problem is that Chandler can’t sink a 15 footer like Amare or drive to the hole; he can only dunk pretty much.Oh well, we shall see.

    FWIW, D’Antoni, in explaining the nuances of the P&R on his show last year, stated that contact on the P&R was unnecessary and could actually be counterproductive by slowing down the play.

  116. Thomas B.

    Barea’s got skills, but it’s in no way clear that he’s a serious upgrade over TD. For 4-5x the money, it’s a bad basketball move.

    Let the church say Amen.

  117. Mike Kurylo Post author

    Z-man:
    That’s some deep shit, Jim.I’m gonna pick up Bartlett’s and see if I can find any good Stalin quotes. Like Hollinger, both despots overvalued high-volume, low-efficiency shooting.

    20 Million people just rolled over in their graves.

    I’m going to write an internet etiquette book and rule #82 is going to be “Never use an evil despot from history. When you are tempted instead use one from fiction.” Hence Hitler becomes Tywin Lannister and Stalin = Darth Vader. Much easier on the stomach.

  118. Spree8nyk8

    bobneptune: that is your opinion and it is duly noted. as i previously said i like TD as a back up tweener. i don’t see the requisite point guard skill set that many of you see.

    barera is a better passer. he is a better penetrator. he creates havoc in the lane like that guy that causes the crashes in the car commercials. he forces defenses to rotate and switch like crazy causing mismatches everywhere. and he’s likely the quickest guy with the ball in the league. his biggest weakness (non physical on the ball defender) is ameliorated by having chandler back stopping the defense.

    the number one skill of a point guard is to initiate/facilitate the offense and that is TD’s weakest skill.

    Bob, you keep missing the point. The point is not JJ vs TD, it’s that the Knicks will have better options in a very short period of time simply by waiting. It makes no sense to trade a member of the team that can be a part of the long term picture for a player that probably isn’t. Especially when there is no clear evidence that he can specifically be that guy. We can give Toney a chance with Bibby as a backup and if that isn’t working at the deadline we can try to get Nash then. And if that doesn’t happen we can pick up Nash at the end of the season. Why trade for Barea when Nash is right around the corner. And also, like Jake just said, we could also go after Baron shortly as well. We need cheap players to come here, not trades, unless it’s for something substantial. We don’t need to go into a 16 day training camp with 10 new guys.

  119. Thomas B.

    FWIW, D’Antoni, in explaining the nuances of the P&R on his show last year, stated that contact on the P&R was unnecessary and could actually be counterproductive by slowing down the play.

    How can you set a pick without contact? What D’Antoni is talking about is a screen and roll, a flash and roll, a show and roll, a f*cking eggroll, but it aint a pick n roll.

    If there is no contact, then there is no pick.

  120. Z-man

    Mike Kurylo: 20 Million people just rolled over in their graves. I’m going to write an internet etiquette book and rule #82 is going to be “Never use an evil despot from history. When you are tempted instead use one from fiction.” Hence Hitler becomes Tywin Lannister and Stalin = Darth Vader. Much easier on the stomach.

    Point taken, Mike, bad attempt at sarcasm, if you read it without the Hollinger reference, it better reflects that. Sorry for not leaving it at that.

  121. art vandelay

    So it’s official that we only have the $2.5 “room” exception and not the full $5 M MLE and/or bi-annual exception? If so, what was doing the S&T with Dallas about? Was it simply to get Chandler higher annual raises with bird rights preserved, or something similar?

  122. Z-man

    Thomas B.: How can you set a pick without contact? What D’Antoni is talking about is a screen and roll, a flash and roll, a show and roll, a f*cking eggroll, but it aint a pick n roll. If there is no contact, then there is no pick.

    You’d have to ask D’Antoni that, he is probably a better authority on the P&R than either of us. The point is, Amare is not necessarily responsible for the lack of contact.

  123. Jim Cavan (@JPCavan)

    Mike Kurylo: 20 Million people just rolled over in their graves.

    I’m going to write an internet etiquette book and rule #82 is going to be “Never use an evil despot from history. When you are tempted instead use one from fiction.” Hence Hitler becomes Tywin Lannister and Stalin = Darth Vader. Much easier on the stomach.

    The quote was not meant as an attack on science or statistics, or to somehow trivialize the scope of what Hitler did. It was simply meant to reflect how an unyielding, blind adherence to any system — science, religion, whatever — can yield disastrous, tragic results. And to show that, for every quote or book you can find advancing idea or belief x, it’s often just as easy to find an example of one advancing the opposite of that belief or idea.

    And that thing about living in glass houses.

    Nuance, people. Nuance.

  124. Thomas B.

    Z-man: You’d have to ask D’Antoni that, he is probably a better authority on the P&R than either of us.The point is, Amare is not necessarily responsible for the lack of contact.

    I’m fine with that, but folks should stop calling that thing they run a pick n roll because there is no pick in it.

  125. Mike Kurylo Post author

    Z-man: Point taken, Mike, bad attempt at sarcasm, if you read it without the Hollinger reference, it better reflects that.Sorry for not leaving it at that.

    Thank you for the apology. Although I do admit I did think it was darn clever.

  126. Z-man

    PS a screen without contact is both still a pick and not necessecarily a bad one. If the defender goes under the screen, the user of the screen has space for, say, a step-back jumper. If the defender goes over the screen, he may lose a half-step and be vulnerable on a drive. It also creates confusion and angle issues for the defense.

  127. Thomas B.

    Jim Cavan (@JPCavan): The quote was not meant as an attack on science or statistics, or tosomehow trivialize the scope of what Hitler did. It was simply meant to reflect how an unyielding, blind adherence to any system — science, religion, whatever — can yield disastrous results. And to show that, for every quote or book you can find advancing idea or belief x, it’s often just as easy to find an example of one advancing the opposite of that belief or idea.

    And that thing about living in glass houses.

    Nuance, people. Nuance.

    Mohandas Gandhi had an unyielding, blind adherence to a system of non-violent political resistance. All he did was topple an empire and free a nation. So its not always a disaster. Now the way D’Antoni teaches the PNR, that is a disaster.

  128. Z-man

    Thomas B.: Mohandas gandhi had an unyielding, blind adherence to a system of non-violent political resistance. All he did was topple and empire and free a nation. So its not always a disaster. Now the way D’Antoni teaches the PNR, that is a disaster.

    Actually, outside of SSoL, it is probably the most renowned part of D’Antoni’s coaching. I would stick to criticizing him for his defensive schemes or for burning out his players, but considering how devastating Amare has been with Nash and to a degree with Felton on the P&R, I wouldn’t quibble about how Amare sets the picks.

  129. Thomas B.

    All that shows is that you need someone as good as Nash to make that mess work. I’m pretty sure I recall Karl Malone making contact…but maybe I’m wrong.

  130. Jim Cavan (@JPCavan)

    Thomas B.: Mohandas gandhi had an unyielding, blind adherence to a system of non-violent political resistance. All he did was topple and empire and free a nation. So its not always a disaster. Now the way D’Antoni teaches the PNR, that is a disaster.

    This is a good point. However, I’d argue that even Gandhi’s movement / beliefs / philosophy were not without their collateral damage, innocent victims, or unintended negative consequences. Obviously millions of magnitudes less than Hitler, and towards much greater ends from just about any perspective. And that has to do with the means by which each was prepared to meet those ends; Hitler was willing to use violence as a legitimate means to a greater end, whereas Gandhi precluded violence as a means altogether (at least outwardly).

    But moving on… PLZ DONT GO TD WE <3 U!

  131. Frank

    This is a little less philosophical but here goes…

    does anyone else here have season tickets? I do and haven’t heard a peep from the Knicks about how to get the tickets for the new schedule. Anyone else hear anything?

  132. bobneptune

    Spree8nyk8: Bob, you keep missing the point.The point is not JJ vs TD, it’s that the Knicks will have better options in a very short period of time simply by waiting.It makes no sense to trade a member of the team that can be a part of the long term picture for a player that probably isn’t.Especially when there is no clear evidence that he can specifically be that guy.We can give Toney a chance with Bibby as a backup and if that isn’t working at the deadline we can try to get Nash then.And if that doesn’t happen we can pick up Nash at the end of the season.Why trade for Barea when Nash is right around the corner.And also, like Jake just said, we could also go after Baron shortly as well.We need cheap players to come here, not trades, unless it’s for something substantial.We don’t need to go into a 16 day training camp with 10 new guys.

    this is the 2011-12 season. we don’t know who will be available at the trade deadline/next year. do you have some inside pipeline telling you a nash is a lock to sign for the mle @5 million next year?

    barea, imo, has a better point guard skill set than TD. why is TD a part of a long term solution and barea isn’t?

    i just believe TD’s point guard skillset is insufficient to run a contending team. you’ve got a team set to win now and don’t have a quarterback for the team to run the offense.

    let’s just for a minute say TD was a king and not a knick. what would you say his best skills to play point guard for a contending team was? is he a great penetrator? is he a great passer? does he turn the corner like a whippet on the p&r? no, no and no!

    he is a fine 3 ball shooter and runs through picks like a drunken sailor. he also doesn’t use his head guarding one armed ,quick, no shooting guards 30 feet from the hole.

    TD is a nice player, but if he wore a different jersey you wouldn’t give him a second…

  133. xduckshoex

    Barea is just another one of those guys that is going to get overpaid because the handful of good games he had in the playoffs is fresh in everyones memory. He’s not a starter in the NBA and the Knicks already have a quality backup caliber PG, no need to bring him on board at the price he’ll command this year.

  134. Robert Silverman

    bob – I don’t think anyone here is overrating Toney Douglas but just to speak for myself, the only point is that I don’t think JJ Barea at 5/million per (his rumored price tag) is a good investment for this team. Especially when DWTDD and possibly Shump and Bibby, can be as much of a factor helping this team win for far less cost.

  135. Robert Silverman

    If you think the Knicks need a quick PG, go get Pooh Jeter for the vet minimum/15% of the cost of Barea.

  136. Jim Cavan (@JPCavan)

    Robert Silverman: If you think the Knicks need a quick PG, go get Pooh Jeter for the vet minimum/15% of the cost of Barea.

    I’m just glad someone finally said what we’ve all been thinking.

  137. Eternal OptiKnist

    somebody please tell me to stfu and stop lamenting that the nets will (inevitably) have DH12 and D-Will and likely Nene? Please tell me to be happy with what we have, even if we gave Chandler $5mm too much. Tell me hoW good we arE

  138. Mike Kurylo Post author

    Eternal OptiKnist:
    somebody please tell me to stfu and stop lamenting that the nets will (inevitably) have DH12 and D-Will and likely Nene? Please tell me to be happy with what we have, even if we gave Chandler $5mm too much. Tell me hoW good we arE

    You’ll need Eternal PessiNet for that.

  139. SeeWhyDee77

    Douglas has his flaws, we all know. He’s still young and maybe he’ll grow even more into the job. Ppl tend to forget this..or at least maybe don’t know this fact:He started at Auburn but transferred to FSU becuz he wanted to be a PG!! As opposed to the SG the coaches at Auburn were making him. Secondly, your team is destined for success if u have strong defense at the point of attack and in the paint. So..Douglas fits there as well. Remember Derek Harper? Yes a better PG..but he didn’t start playing well at the position and fully grasping it til what..his 3rd or 4th year in the league? Harper’s career average is 13 ppg and 5 apg. As a starter..Douglas can do that. I know…PG is not about stats. It’s really more about making the right pass and gettin the team into the sets and bein a good ballhandler overall. So i’m just sayin..let’s see how he grows as a starter 1st. He’s always been relied upon as instant offense off the bench in the NBA. The thing he needs to be most careful about is retainin what little he learned from Billups, what he can learn from Bibby, and try not 2 do too much-play his role. We need him mainly as a shooter, defender, and reliable distributor- he doesn’t need to be all world. Now of course if he’s still doin the same dumb shit (for lack of a better phrase for not growing into the role at an acceptable pace) come playoffs, then of course all bets are off. One thing’s for sure..with Bibby around we will definitely need a 3rd true PG..even if he’s a project. No way do I see Shump as a NBA point. A really nice 2 if he puts all his skills together, but not a PG. Anyway my point is Douglas is far from a bust but not quite yet a “ready for primetime” player with room to grow. Our PG sitchew could b much worse..HELLO CHRIS DUHON!! lol..or DJ AUGUSTIN!! Yes I think Douglas is better..but slightly

  140. xduckshoex

    I may be in the minority but I’d be happy with Jamal Crawford. If he works out then great, if he doesn’t then he’s a trade chip.

  141. Spree8nyk8

    bobneptune:
    barea, imo, has a better point guard skill set than TD. why is TD a part of a long term solution and barea isn’t?

    i just believe TD’s point guard skillset is insufficient to run a contending team. you’ve got a team set to win now and don’t have a quarterback for the team to run the offense.

    let’s just for a minute say TD was a king and not a knick. what would you say his best skills to play point guard for a contending team was? is he a great penetrator? is he a great passer? does he turn the corner like a whippet on the p&r? no, no and no!

    Toney Douglas’ future on this team is not tied to being the PG. He is a good combo guard. When we get a real starting pg on this team it’s not going to change a whole lot for TD. That wouldn’t be true for JJ. And this is all going on the notion that JJ can be a starter. We don’t know that he can be. So why would we give up something that we know? This team is also trying to get better on D, so we don’t need a poor defending pg. TD can become a better pg, JJ isn’t gonna grow.

  142. daJudge

    #137–Wow, CJ. This is an amazing coincidence. I was watching the dopey sit com ‘Big Bang Theory’ before reading your post. Just perfect. Did you plan this? I can speak at length about the relationship between perception and stats, but it is complicated, boring as shit and, as my wife often says, please don’t share. This is a really cool site and I love all of the intelligent and other viewpoints that are shared. I am so pumped about the Knicks right now I am having trouble thinking about the Giant’s game. Go Knicks—no JJ.

  143. Spree8nyk8

    Damn man, uggh, I kinda like JC…But idk how I feel about that. Honestly, he’d be 3rd on my list of Knicks I want to see make their way back here behind Will the thrill and Rooster.

  144. Z-man

    This PG stuff is making be queasy. Please be good, Shump, and make all of this talk amount to 10-12 MPG of sub time.

  145. Spree8nyk8

    idk maybe I’m old fashioned, I just think TD has at least earned a shot at the job. When they first cracked the door of the practice facility the first guy through was Melo (which it should be), but the second guy was TD. Give him a shot.

  146. Jim Cavan (@JPCavan)

    Spree8nyk8:
    idk maybe I’m old fashioned, I just think TD has at least earned a shot at the job.When they first cracked the door of the practice facility the first guy through was Melo (which it should be), but the second guy was TD.Give him a shot.

    Cosign.

  147. Robert Silverman

    Spree8nyk8:
    idk maybe I’m old fashioned, I just think TD has at least earned a shot at the job.When they first cracked the door of the practice facility the first guy through was Melo (which it should be), but the second guy was TD.Give him a shot.

    Maybe I’m old fashioned, but I worship the Sun and Moon as powerful gods and I fear thunder and lightning as signs of their anger.

  148. Spree8nyk8

    johnhollinger John Hollinger
    Calm down NYC. Any sign-and-trade for Crawford puts the Hawks in the luxury tax. Non-starter.

  149. Jafa

    Earned a shot at the job? How about winning it outright? You know, like when a 2nd round draft pick comes in focused and wins the starting 2G job outright?

    If TD is as good a PG as most of you dream he is, then let him prove it and end the chatter. If he is not, then I’m fine with trading him for a better starting PG. Until he wins the job, we will consider every Barea, Davis, Sessions, Calderon and even “Pooh Jeter” that is available.

  150. Dan Panorama

    If that trade’s officially done, David Stern’s going to take a major pounding in the press, from players, from execs, etc. What a disaster.

  151. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    If TD is as good a PG as most of you dream he is, then let him prove it and end the chatter. If he is not, then I’m fine with trading him for a better starting PG. Until he wins the job, we will consider every Barea, Davis, Sessions, Calderon and even “Pooh Jeter” that is available.

    How can he prove it if they trade him on December 11th?

  152. Spree8nyk8

    Can anyone explain to me what sense it would make for the Lakers to trade Odom into the Mavs exception? How do the lakers gain anything doing that? Do they get an exception or something useful that way?

  153. Jim Cavan (@JPCavan)

    I guess that way the Lakers can offer Bynum straight up for Howard, and take back Hedo’s contract. Whether the Magic do that is a decision up to a GM of questionable decision-making abilities.

  154. bobneptune

    SeeWhyDee77:
    Douglas has his flaws, we all know. He’s still young and maybe he’ll grow even more into the job. Ppl tend to forget this..or at least maybe don’t know this fact:He started at Auburn but transferred to FSU becuz he wanted to be a PG!! As opposed to the SG the coaches at Auburn were making him. Secondly, your team is destined for success if u have strong defense at the point of attack and in the paint. So..Douglas fits there as well.

    For all the TD point guard fans…. did any of you actually watch games 2, 3 and 4 vs the celtics, or did you just watch the mike d’antoni show recap?

    where does this notion that TD is such a great defended come from? being compared to chris duhon?

    did anyone watch rondo dismantle him at the end of game 2 with 3 straight laypus and then picked TD’s pocket for the game winning dunk by KG?

    the next game he put up 20 dishes vs the great defender and followed that with 12 dishes and 11 boards in game 4.

    the guy isn’t a stand out defender, he doesn’t dish well as he is a shoot first lead guard, but he can certainly shoot the 3 ball.

    he isn’t a pg no matter if he left auburn to prove it or not. and you guys want him leading your team that you think is near a championship level.

    i honestly don’t get the infatuation with TD. especially when you have him penciled in to run the point, which he isn’t particularly skilled at.

  155. JK47

    Not too psyched about the idea of Jamal Crawford. Would rather have J-Rich if we’re going for a scoring 2-guard.

  156. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    It isn’t that TD is great, it is that Barea is not better. If they were to trade TD for a definite upgrade, so be it. But not for a downgrade.

  157. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Not too psyched about the idea of Jamal Crawford. Would rather have J-Rich if we’re going for a scoring 2-guard.

    I am far beyond “not too psyched.” I am openly aghast at the notion. Crawford is not a bad player and for certain teams, he definitely has a role that he can fit. The Knicks are not that team.

  158. Jafa

    @204:

    He’s had 2 years under the same system. First year his competition was Chris Duhon, Sergio Rodriguez and Nate Robinson. All 3 are not even starters in the NBA today. Last year, we took one look at him and realized we needed to sign Felton, and he wasn’t even a perfect fit for the style of play early on. We even played an often injured, almost done, doesn’t fit in with the offensive system Billups in-front of him.

    It’s Year 3, and yet we are still on the hunt for a new PG. While Toney Douglas has a role in the NBA, and I believe will always make somebody’s 8 or 9 man rotation, I don’t think he is a true PG. That is why we are discussing acquiring people like Barea and signing washed up has beens like Mike Bibby.

  159. Robert Silverman

    JK47: ear a championship level.

    i honestly don’t get the in

    J-Rich re-signed w/Orlando 5 years, 24 million

    Jafa:
    Earned a shot at the job?How about winning it outright?You know, like when a 2nd round draft pick comes in focused and wins the starting 2G job outright?

    Fields was competing w/Roger Mason and Bill Walker for the starting job. Douglas was competing w/Felton. Big difference.

  160. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    I would not call that a “no-brainer.”

    Agreed. Which is why I said “not a no-brainer.”

  161. bobneptune

    Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin): How can he prove it if they trade him on December 11th?

    he had his chance to prove he could run the show in games 2, 3 and 4 vs the celtics last year. how did that work out? rondo gave him …. well…. you know what he gave him.

  162. Jafa

    @212:

    I think Fields was actually competing with Chandler and Felton, while good, is not a PG where you go “Duh, how could he win a starting job with that guy on the roster?”

  163. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Brian,

    Please back up this assertion with stats.

    Are you joking here?

    As for TD for Barea, here’s a novel concept for posters on this “Stats” Blog: Lets back up our arguments with stats. For example, TD vs. Barea over their careers:

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=douglto01&y1=2011&p2=bareajo01&y2=2011

    TS%:.547 vs .522 (edge TD)
    AST%: 18.5% vs 27.1% (edge Barea)
    TOV%: 10.5% vs 15.4% (edge TD)
    3P%: .375 vs .355 (edge TD)

    Or TD vs. Barea last season:

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=douglto01&y1=2011&p2=bareajo01&y2=2011

    TS%:.535 vs .534 (even)
    AST%: 19.5% vs 31.2% (edge Barea)
    TOV%: 10% vs 15.9% (edge TD)
    3P%: .373 vs .349 (edge TD)

    Looks like TD is slightly better, younger (24 vs 26) and cheaper.

    Agreed, that is exactly what it looks like.

  164. Robert Silverman

    bobneptune: he had his chance to prove he could run the show in games 2, 3 and 4 vs the celtics last year. how did that work out? rondo gave him …. well…. you know what he gave him.

    Bob. He was playing w/a badly injured shoulder. The fact that he didn’t do well in the playoffs doesn’t render the rest of his career moot.

    You don’t like Toney Douglas. I think we get that.

  165. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    And yes, his shoulder injury makes his numbers last year even more impressive, as you simply have to presume that he would shoot better with a healed shoulder (heck, we saw as much when he shot a lot better after he was allowed to rest his shoulder during the All-Star break).

  166. Jafa

    Brian,

    You conveniently left out the last part of my argument. I’m not pro-Barea or anti-TD, I’m just baffled that we won’t even consider the possibility of it by simply dismissing it as a downgrade.

    And if you look at my numbers, it doesn’t say “no brainier”. It says “slightly better”. So lets treat it the way it is – slightly better, would consider. Instead of “get out of here with that idea”.

  167. Robert Silverman

    JK47:
    Whoah, FIVE years for Jason Richardson?Now that is insane.

    Five years.I just– words–they fail.

    Five years. And they’re about to trade Howard. Why, pray tell do you need J-Rich if you’re dealing Howard. It’s Isiah-level stupid…

  168. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    I think the Lakers actually caught a break with the Paul deal falling apart. Howard is a much better fit for them.

  169. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    You conveniently left out the last part of my argument.

    It was a non-stat-based argument (something about Barea being a champion) so I figured it was best to discard it.

    And if you look at my numbers, it doesn’t say “no brainier”. It says “slightly better”. So lets treat it the way it is – slightly better, would consider. Instead of “get out of here with that idea”.

    I didn’t say no-brainer, either. I said downgrade. Which it would be, slight or otherwise (and as I mentioned above, I think TD’s shoulder injury makes the differential closer thant it normally would be).

  170. Robert Silverman

    Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin):
    I think the Lakers actually caught a break with the Paul deal falling apart. Howard is a much better fit for them.

    LA was going to get Paul and be very thin on the Front line. League blocked it b/c they locked out the players to keep stars from flocking to big market teams. LA ends up with a better player.

    Well done.

    Are we sure Isiah Thomas isn’t secretly the NBA Commissioner?

  171. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    I mean, don’t get me wrong, they still have to actually get Howard. It certainly is no lock that they’ll have the assets to get him. Would you trade Gasol and Bynum for Howard and Hedu if you were the Lakers? You’re committing to Hedu as your 4 (unless they can pick someone up with the mini-MLE, or would the Odom trade take them low enough so that they could use the MLE?). Is that a championship contender?

  172. JK47

    Howard to the Lakers, Paul to the Clippers is kind of a best-case scenario for us. Howard leaves the conference to join a team that will be good, but hardly unbeatable, and where there is NO chance Chris Paul joins them as a FA. Paul (hypothetically of course) goes to the Clips, who will lose assets to get him and who will be interesting but not really a title threat.

    Much better than D12 to the Nets or D12 + CP3 to the Lakers.

  173. bobneptune

    Robert Silverman: Bob.He was playing w/a badly injured shoulder. The fact that he didn’t do well in the playoffs doesn’t render the rest of his career moot.

    You don’t like Toney Douglas. I think we get that.

    i like toney douglas just fine…. just not as a point guard/initiator of the offense. he’s a fine back up 2… i just don’t want him distributing for my team.

    his shoulder might have been bad (although it’s funny that his aching shoulder could fire up 33 shots in games 2,3,and 4) . he only had 7 assists in those 3 games total, that’s why he isn’t an nba point guard. he shoots first dishes later.

    and his injured shoulders weren’t the problem…. the great defender couldn’t move his feet quickly enough to have a sniff of a hope of staying anywhere near in front of an injured rondo who was playing with a brace on his elbow.

    in case you guys forgot what adult abuse looks like:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2suTNoqhCbQ

    how many ways can you get taken to the cleaners by a guy with absolutely no “J”?

  174. Robert Silverman

    Am I crazy, or should the Knicks call Houston and offer Amar’e for Scola & Martin right now?

  175. Will the Thrill

    So Barea guarding Rondo would yield better results? We know that TD isn’t an elite defender, but he is definitely a better/more versatile defender than Barea. And without a large difference in their offensive skills/numbers, AND including the money involved, this trade doesn’t seem to be a good deal for the Knicks.

  176. rooster_douglas

    It’s alive! I cannot believe how active this thread is. I’m sitting here filling out boring paper work for school, updating this page every hour and finding new, interesting posts, and jokes!

    Speaking of jokes, surely, @230, you jest.

    Also, add me to the “let’s not trade Toney for JJ” camp. We already have one JJ we don’t need… though I get why we signed him.

  177. bobneptune

    Will the Thrill:
    So Barea guarding Rondo would yield better results? We know that TD isn’t an elite defender, but he is definitely a better/more versatile defender than Barea. And without a large difference in their offensive skills/numbers, AND including the money involved, this trade doesn’t seem to be a good deal for the Knicks.

    however, there IS a large difference in their offense when you measure the metrics that are important to point guard play…. distributing the ball and initially breaking down the defense off the dribble. barea doesn’t shoot the ball quite as well as TD (although he certainly is an acceptable shooter) but he shines breaking down ANY defense off the dribble and dishes much better. barea is a vastly superior creator than TD

    those are the quintessential point guard skills and that is why i prefer barea to TD as a point guard.

  178. bobneptune

    Robert Silverman:
    Am I crazy, or should the Knicks call Houston and offer Amar’e for Scola & Martin right now?

    Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin):
    I think the Lakers actually caught a break with the Paul deal falling apart. Howard is a much better fit for them.

    Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin):
    I think the Lakers actually caught a break with the Paul deal falling apart. Howard is a much better fit for them.

    if otis thorpe wanted to be a real poop stirrer…. he’d call pat riley and propose howard for lebron and then leak it to the media if riley even thinks about it.

    james’ ego is so fragile, it would send him right to the “quiet room”.

  179. xduckshoex

    Robert Silverman:
    Am I crazy, or should the Knicks call Houston and offer Amar’e for Scola & Martin right now?

    If they’ll take Doulas for Lowry as well I’d give it some strong consideration.

  180. Spree8nyk8

    bobneptune: however, there IS a large difference in their offense when you measure the metrics that are important topoint guard play

    Well, offensively we were already really good. I think the focus of improvement needs to be on defense. And I guess what everyone has kinda tried to point out is that JJ does not represent a large enough leap in improvement to justify trading. I don’t think anyone is against him coming here for the mini exception. That part is fine. But trading TD for him is completely unnecessary.

  181. Robert Silverman

    The caveat being that The Knicks really can’t get Shawne Williams and JJ Barea — they both want the 2.5million slot.

    Shawne Williams as a stretch 4 is really important – more so than JJ Barea’s PG skills

  182. jon abbey

    NY/Grunwald did such a good job getting Chandler, and now the three main players on the team should perfectly complement each other. the problem is that they seem to be following that up by rushing/semi-panicking into snapping up any stray guard they can find, and you can’t build a title team like that in the NBA. every big decision needs to be correct or you lose your shot, and I just hope that Nix management doesn’t lock into deals with subpar guard options out of desperation, especially when there is absolutely no reason to be desperate.

    in conclusion, Douglas/Fields with Shumpert/Bibby behind them is not so bad, certainly upgradeable but MAKE SURE IT’S THE RIGHT FIT if it’s any kind of long-term investment.

    yrs,
    a long-suffering fan

  183. SeeWhyDee77

    bobneptune:

    where does this notion that TD is such a great defended come from? being compared to chris duhon?

    did anyone watch rondo dismantle him at the end of game 2 with 3 straight laypus and then picked TD’s pocket for the game winning dunk by KG?

    the next game he put up 20 dishes vs the great defender and followed that with 12 dishes and 11 boards in game 4.

    the guy isn’t a stand out defender, he doesn’t dish well as he is a shoot first lead guard, but he can certainly shoot the 3 ball.

    Look..when ur young, quick, and aggressive..u think u can pressure everybody. Douglas IS a good defender..just not a smart defender..yet. I’m pretty sure he learned a lesson after bein skewered by Rondo. All the great defenders had to learn how to be smart defenders. MJ, Kobe, Ben Wallace, Pippen, Bowen, Rodman, Payton..those guys are no exception. Whether Douglas puts the work in remains to be seen. In any case..I made a Derek Harper comparison earlier to try an say PG is not easy to pick up rite away. That said, this is Douglas’ what, 3rd year? If he hasn’t significantly improved in all facets of his game under D’Antoni then it probably will be time to look at replacing him. I’m not a huge fan of Douglas, but I do like him therefore i’m willin to give him a shot. I would absolutely love to have a better starter at the point, who wouldn’t? But we can’t write Douglas off or dismiss him as not good enough just yet.

  184. flossy

    jon abbey:
    NY/Grunwald did such a good job getting Chandler, and now the three main players on the team should perfectly complement each other. the problem is that they seem to be following that up by rushing/semi-panicking into snapping up any stray guard they can find, and you can’t build a title team like that in the NBA. every big decision needs to be correct or you lose your shot, and I just hope that Nix management doesn’t lock into deals with subpar guard options out of desperation, especially when there is absolutely no reason to be desperate.

    in conclusion, Douglas/Fields with Shumpert/Bibby behind them is not so bad, certainly upgradeable but MAKE SURE IT’S THE RIGHT FIT if it’s any kind of long-term investment.

    yrs,
    a long-suffering fan

    This JJ Barea business kind of makes you wonder if the Chandler signing wasn’t so much a sign of the FO getting its act together but rather Dolan seeing free agents who won a ring last year and thinking “want ALL teh champions!”

  185. Mulligan

    Hahn says the push for JJ or Crawford is via some kind of “room exception” (two years, $5 million) not a trade with TD.

    http://bit.ly/tliQYr

    I wouldn’t mind JC for a year or two, coming off the bench to throw hella lobs to STAT and Chandler.

  186. flossy

    Say what you will about Crawford’s game but how could anyone possibly say no to him at 2 years, $5 mil?

    (On the other hand how could he possibly say yes to such a pittance?).

    If JJ Barea wants to come here, $2.5 mil per over two years should be plenty, no trades necessary. If that’s not enough, maybe the extra dough will keep him warm in Minnesota or wherever.

  187. Kikuchiyo

    Mulligan: I wouldn’t mind JC for a year or two, coming off the bench to throw hella lobs to STAT and Chandler.

    Crawford passes? I don’t remember that.

  188. jon abbey

    agreed that either Crawford or Barea on a 2/5 deal would be nice pickups. if Grunwald pulls either of those off, I’m officially a big fan (of his).

  189. Mulligan

    Kikuchiyo: Crawford passes? I don’t remember that.

    You don’t remember the dark days of the mid-2000’s when there were frequent discussions about how one of Jamal Crawford’s only redeemable attributes was that he was the best at getting Curry the ball in the post? My how far we’ve come…

  190. art vandelay

    So they are offering the “room” exception of $2.5 Million to Barea, Crawford and Shawne Williams….for that money, personally I think I would prefer Crawford, since (unless they trade someone for Barea or Crawford), they can only get one of them.

  191. massive

    Why are we not looking for a stretch 4 to add to our frontcourt depth? Isn’t Amar’e super good when playing at the 5 with a guy like Wilson Chandler or Shawne Williams at the 4? I think we need to bring back Shawne Williams and then figure out who else is going to man the PG position later. Obviously, there are no long term solutions available this offseason (unless you think Toney Douglas can turn into some form of Jameer Nelson or Tony Parker), so we need to be thinking about how to keep Amar’e and Tyson fresh for as long as there here. We need a deep front-court rotation, and as it stands, we have Amar’e, Tyson Chandler, and two JJs. I’m not sure I’m too comfortable with that.

  192. jon abbey

    art vandelay:
    So they are offering the “room” exception of $2.5 Million to Barea, Crawford and Shawne Williams….for that money, personally I think I would prefer Crawford, since (unless they trade someone for Barea or Crawford), they can only get one of them.

    who are the frontcourt backups right now? Jeffries? Jordan? especially with Walker in the mix in the backcourt, a backup F like Williams might be the biggest need right now.

  193. art vandelay

    Marc Berman: Told #Knicks and Hawks working on 3-team deal for Jamal Crawford with Douglas involved in one scenario

  194. art vandelay

    So they are trying to obtain Crawford, which I don’t think is a bad move by itself, but they are going to further deplete their PG situation to do so? They can’t possibly have that much confidence in Mike Bibby, right? I have to imagine a Crawford trade would be followed up by Barea signing, or that they would be done in tandem, no? Or a PG would have to be going back to Knicks in that 3-way trade….bizarre!

  195. art vandelay

    He did say “in one scenario,” so maybe he won’t be traded…wouldn’t it make more sense to trade Fields for Crawford, rather than Douglas?

  196. Jim Cavan (@JPCavan)

    art vandelay:
    He did say “in one scenario,” so maybe he won’t be traded…wouldn’t it make more sense to trade Fields for Crawford, rather than Douglas?

    I thought about that. But if Berman is privy enough to know that Douglas is involved in one scenario, you’d think he’d probably know if Fields was involved in another, and we’d have heard musings to that effect. Because there are, apparently, three teams involved, I’m hoping for the least amount of collateral damage, i.e. not losing Douglas or Fields.

  197. massive

    Fields for Crawford? Even worse. Don’t trade those two young guys. I’d rather let them develop alongside our super front court into two above average NBA starters. Why can’t Douglas be as good as a prime Mike Bibby (WS/48 ranging from .133-.151 from 02-05)? Why can’t Fields be as good as the Orlando/Phoenix Grant Hill? I’d be more than happy with those two as our starters this season.

  198. Jake S.

    Sorry, can someone explain what the F they want with Jamal Crawford in the first place? Can’t think of a worst compliment to STAT and Melo.

  199. massive

    I’m not sure if anybody else has thought about it, but I remember Landry Fields talking to Tyson Chandler about joining the Knicks (albeit in jest) on ESPN Next Round. Maybe Landry Fields used his Stanford education to convince Tyson Chandler, who’s never been to college, to come play for the Knicks. I only thought of this because Landry gave up his number for Tyson.

  200. Will the Thrill

    If we roll out with a lineup of
    Bibby – Jamal – Melo – Amar’e – Chandler

    instead of
    TD – Fields – Melo – Amar’e – Chandler

    We will have made the best (chandler) and worst (you know who) moves in the offseason.

  201. d-mar

    Jake S.:
    Sorry, can someone explain what the F they want with Jamal Crawford in the first place? Can’t think of a worst compliment to STAT and Melo.

    I don’t get it either. Can we just sit tight with what we have for a day or two? It’s become like “Let’s Make a Deal” – “oh, wow, that washer/dryer set I just won is really nice, but check out that refridgerator/freezer combo..hmmm…nice”

  202. steveoh

    For some reason, I think I’d be okay with trading Landry for Crawford and put him as our starting 2-guard. Just keep the ball out of his hands until he has to shoot it. I think a third option is necessary on offense, and it’s not like Landry is a great defender anyways. He tries but he’s got a lot of work to go.

    I just can’t stomach a PG duo of Crawford and Bibby. That completely undermines the Chandler deal and our “commitment to defense”. TD is so important to us right now. We have two great scorers. We could use a third. And then, everyone else buckles down and defends. That sounds right.

  203. The Surprisingly yet Cautiously Optimistic C. J., #1 Gentleman

    “A man who possesses the art of correct reading will, in studying any book, magazine, or pamphlet, instinctively and immediately perceive everything which in his opinion is worth permanently remembering, either because it is suited to his purpose or generally worth knowing. Once the knowledge he has achieved in this fashion is correctly coordinated within the somehow existing picture of this or that subject created by the imagination, it will function either as a corrective or a complement, thus enhancing either the correctness or the clarity of the picture … Only this kind of reading has meaning and purpose.”

    Anti-intellectualism at its worst.

    This comparison isn’t out of order, even if the respective outcomes are conversely tremendously inhumane and trivial. And yes, basketball is trivial. But it’s important to talk about because the principle remains the same whether you’re evaluating a player’s shooting ability while ignoring the cold, hard stats, or justifying a racialist ideology that will mobilize an entire people for war. This isn’t the way science works. You don’t discount analysis because it fails the “eye-test.” You amend your perspective. You reevaluate your assumptions.

  204. Jim Cavan (@JPCavan)

    The Surprisingly yet Cautiously Optimistic C. J., #1 Gentleman: Anti-intellectualism at its worst.

    And yes, basketball is trivial. But it’s important to talk about because the principle remains the same whether you’re evaluating a player’s shooting ability while ignoring the cold, hard stats, or justifying a racialist ideology that will mobilize an entire people for war. This isn’t the way science works. You don’t discount analysis because it fails the “eye-test.” You amend your perspective. You reevaluate your assumptions.

    There’s a huge difference between “discounting stats” completely — which I don’t think anyone here is advising we do– and believing that even statistics can, on occasion, lead one into an evaluative error as far as basketball team personnel is concerned.

    I wrote the following in a previous thread, right before a new thread was posted and the conversation moved on:

    With respect to WP/48 in particular, proponents still admit that the cumulative / composite ends up being an average of 2.5 games off the mark. All I’d suggest — and if I knew how to prove this out, I’d… probably not do it anyway — is that that 2.5 games difference, however the error’s parsed out between the players, might be magnified significantly depending on a change in teams, system, personnel, etc.

    Stats are getting undoubtedly better at capturing the past and present, and at anticipating which context — and which players — compliment certain players better than others. Stats are important, and they should be used. All I’m saying is there’s still room for error, and sometimes it’s OK to close the stat deficit between what you believe and what you see, with a little luck, blind faith, and chance.

  205. The Surprisingly yet Cautiously Optimistic C. J., #1 Gentleman

    I’m totally on-board with you, Jim. I have said before that WP48 is not the end-all-be-all, but because of its methodology, I’m happy using it as my all-inclusive stat. 2.5 games off the mark is REALLY close, especially when wins are assigned a binary value (W/L) when the difference in efficiency between teams can be minimal (1.01/1.00 pts/poss). It normally evens out (just as pythag. wins do), but I’m comfortable using that.

    My issue was simply with the assertion that one should use stats only to support his observation-based evaluation. That’s one of the issues of using multiple stats: if you think Carmelo’s good, you’re going to harp on the PER train and stay away from WS48 and WP48. You can’t cherry-pick evaluative tools to support your assertions. That’s a form of selection bias, I’d say, and that’s no good. Doesn’t work.

  206. max fisher-cohen

    Re: Douglas as point guard

    We all saw Fields fall apart post-trade, so I thought I’d look at his numbers during Douglas’s starts when Chauncey was hurt. Fields was 30/50 from the field (60%) FG% and 9/19 on 3s.

    His averages: 13.8 points, 5.3 rebounds in 31.5 MPG

    @ Cock Jowles, how do we create stats? How do we choose which stats to keep and value? We do it with the intent of finding the numbers that represent the real thing. As I think you have pointed out in previous threads, these metrics will never be 100% accurate until we have complex player tracking systems that can read into the more subtle elements of the game. Until we have those statistical symbols, there is a lot that statistics do not capture.

    Impressions are subjective. We have all sorts of built in biases. That doesn’t mean a trained eye can’t add something to what stats provide. Do you think when Steve Nash runs the pick and roll he thinks of the TS% of his teammates? No, he has a far more nuanced impression of each of their games, their strengths and weaknesses, and his team is better for it. The same can go, I think, for an experienced observer of the NBA. If he or she concedes his or her biases and allows stats to correct them, overall impressions I think do have a role in evaluating players.

  207. Jim Cavan (@JPCavan)

    The Surprisingly yet Cautiously Optimistic C. J., #1 Gentleman:
    I’m totally on-board with you, Jim. I have said before that WP48 is not the end-all-be-all, but because of its methodology, I’m happy using it as my all-inclusive stat. 2.5 games off the mark is REALLY close, especially when wins are assigned a binary value (W/L) when the difference in efficiency between teams can be minimal (1.01/1.00 pts/poss). It normally evens out (just as pythag. wins do), but I’m comfortable using that.

    My issue was simply with the assertion that one should use stats only to support his observation-based evaluation. That’s one of the issues of using multiple stats: if you think Carmelo’s good, you’re going to harp on the PER train and stay away from WS48 and WP48. You can’t cherry-pick evaluative tools to support your assertions. That’s a form of selection bias, I’d say, and that’s no good. Doesn’t work.

    That’s fair enough. My point is twofold: 1) That there’s enough room for error in statistics to assume the possibility of improvement given a better system, personnel context, etc. (i.e. the human, as-yet unquantifiable element of creativity, such that we’re willing to take a chance on Melo learning a different system and become a more effective, efficient player); and 2) At the end of the day, we’re fans of the Knicks, and while we’re perfectly in our right to question personnel moves and back up said questioning with statistics, we ought to be willing to give the team a chance to succeed. Because if they do — and that’s always a big if — the stats will reflect that soon enough.

  208. Jim Cavan (@JPCavan)

    Berman now reporting that the Knicks won’t include Douglas in any trade for Crawford. Seems to think this lowers the chance of the trade happening, and indicates Crawford may be using us to jack up his price (GASP!)

  209. ess-dog

    This Crawford stuff seems absurd to me. Bibby, I’m ok with b/c I assume he would only play about 4-8 minutes a game a la Mason Jr. but why do we need a hybrid guard 6th man when we have DWTDD?
    Albeit, Crawford had a nice year last year, but we need a true pg. We’re just swapping combo guards.

  210. alsep73

    While I’m glad we’re not trying to trade DWTDD, it does make me wonder exactly who we are offering for Crawford. Landry and Shumpert are the only realistic options, right? Unless Atlanta has been heavily scouting the Serbian league and they want Jordan?

    I think there’s some definite value to be had in Crawford as a sixth man to spark the offense of the reserves and be a third option when Melo and Stat are on the floor, but I do not want to give up on Landry until we know for sure which player we saw last year is the real guy, and I want to actually see Shumpert play for this team. Like Seth Rosenthal at P&T, I’ve become irrationally attached to him and he hasn’t even put on the jersey yet.

  211. alsep73

    I would, on the other hand, be willing (albeit with some reluctance) to trade Josh Harrelson for Crawford. If Atlanta wants to try on some Jorts, why not?

    (Also, the talk of a third team with salary cap space would suggest Balkman would be shipping out to even out the salaries.)

  212. massive

    ess-dog:
    This Crawford stuff seems absurd to me.Bibby, I’m ok with b/c I assume he would only play about 4-8 minutes a game a la Mason Jr. but why do we need a hybrid guard 6th man when we have DWTDD?
    Albeit, Crawford had a nice year last year, but we need a true pg.We’re just swapping combo guards.

    I would think Jamal Crawford would be our 6th man, which is the role he had his best season under. Essentially, he’d be replacing the role Toney Douglas is leaving behind, now that he’s our starter.

  213. ess-dog

    massive: I would think Jamal Crawford would be our 6th man, which is the role he had his best season under. Essentially, he’d be replacing the role Toney Douglas is leaving behind, now that he’s our starter.

    Right, but call me crazy, I’d rather have TD stay in the role he’s played his entire career thus far. Don’t get me wrong, I still think we’ll do ok with that lineup, but I think we’ll have a hard time in the later rounds of the playoffs w/o a pass first point guard.

  214. The Surprisingly yet Cautiously Optimistic C. J., #1 Gentleman

    Ah, nothing I’d like better than Jamal Crawford getting 2000 minutes at age 31. He of the career .074 WS/48 and .52 TS%.

    Seriously? We’ve got two high-volume scorers, two high-efficiency (when healthy?) guards, and a defensive/rebounding, ultra-high-efficiency center — and we want to add Jamal F’ing Crawford?

  215. massive

    ess-dog: Right, but call me crazy, I’d rather have TD stay in the role he’s played his entire career thus far.Don’t get me wrong, I still think we’ll do ok with that lineup, but I think we’ll have a hard time in the later rounds of the playoffs w/o a pass first point guard.

    I’m not sure that we need a pass-first PG as much as we need a PG who has legit playmaking ability. We need a PG who can rack up about 6-8 assists a night on a consistent basis. Somebody like Jameer Nelson, Kyle Lowry, or (dare I say) Baron Davis. We’re probably not gonna get a player like that right now. Maybe somebody like those two guys becomes available and we can get them. But for now, I think Toney Douglas will do fine as a starter for us. I mean Chris Duhon had some (short-lived) success as a Knick. So there’s no reason to think TD can’t at least be serviceable with a better other starting 4 than any NYK PG since the 90s.

    Basically, if we can bring in Crawford to DWTDDid along with keeping our good, young players, I’d be fine with that.

  216. massive

    And as THCJ would have us know, even if we don’t lose any of our good players, there are no guarantees that Jamal Crawford puts up as good a season as his 2009-2010 season (where he actually outplayed Joe Johnson, the guy who started ahead of him) due to his track record.

  217. The Surprisingly yet Cautiously Optimistic C. J., #1 Gentleman

    He’s had one good season in what, 12? I’m not high on him. There’s no reason to be.

  218. flossy

    Jamal Crawford has twice the court vision and passing acumen and ball-handling ability of Toney Douglas on top of being 4″ taller. It would be nice if the Knicks had *one* guard capable of running a damn pick and roll or tossing a lob pass (which Knicks fans should remember Craw excels at FWIW). He has had seasons of high 20s AST% and 5-6 assists per 36. He’s also capable of making the right call on a fast break, creating his own shot in a pinch, and dropping 50 on D-Wade. None of those things are true of Toney Douglas.

  219. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    If the Magic pick up Gasol and Bynum for Howard and Hedu, they have a pretty decent team, don’t they?

    Nelson
    Reddick
    Richardson
    Gasol
    Bynum

    That’s not bad.

    I mean, it is not as good as their team last year, but it is not bad. And there’s some serious room for the Ewing effect.

  220. SJK

    Regardless of Crawford’s ability on the offensive end, one has to be concerned with his defense. As it stands, our supposed best backcourt defender is Shumpert and he hasn’t played a minute yet. While I’m not necessarily opposed to Crawford, it would be better to spend the money/assets on a more defensive guard. Crawford might be exciting, but he’s doesn’t really fit a pressing need.

  221. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    In other good news, the Celtics did not land West, as he just signed with Indiana for two years/$20 million. The Pacers also signed and traded McRoberts to Memphis for OJ Mayo.

  222. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Congrats to the Trailblazers for trying to recapture the Knicks 2000 frontcourt by signing Kurt Thomas to play alongside Marcus Camby.

  223. JK47

    I’ve seen plenty enough of Jamal Crawford’s wack ass game for one lifetime. He sucks on offense and he sucks on defense. He’s a mediocre perimeter shooter, has a cruddy assist-to-turnover ratio and will have Clyde saying the words “matador defense” roughly 26 times per telecast.

    Oh yeah, and he’s getting older, thus worse.

  224. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    I am not that anti-Crawford, but yeah, I want no part of him if he is going to cost a player. If he is willing to take just $2.5 million, then sure, what the hell. Same goes double for Barea. If he is willing to sign for $2.5 million, god bless him.

  225. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    By the way, for the right to pay Turiaf $500,000 this season, Washington picked up the Knicks’ 2013 second rounder and Dallas’ 2012 second rounder!

  226. The Surprisingly yet Cautiously Optimistic C. J., #1 Gentleman

    Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin):
    If the Magic pick up Gasol and Bynum for Howard and Hedu, they have a pretty decent team, don’t they?

    Nelson
    Reddick
    Richardson
    Gasol
    Bynum

    That’s not bad.

    I mean, it is not as good as their team last year, but it is not bad. And there’s some serious room for the Ewing effect.

    I think the Ewing effect is simply “undervaluing good players by misinterpreting stats.” Bynum and Gasol are awesome players. Twin 7-footers who post great numbers. Sure, Howard’s the best. But I’d trade him for a hall-of-fame quality PF and a young C who could end up one of the league’s best.

  227. TP21JD

    What do you think about the knicks putting a claim in on either baron davis or gilbert arenas for 2.5 million, and if they become a distraction you cut them and wash your hands clean?

  228. cgreene

    TD, Shumpert and anyone else who signed within the last week are not trade-able for Jamal. They have 30-90 day trade restrictions. The only guys we could trade are Landry, Balkman, Walker. I would find it highly unlikely that we trade Landry at this point. He was the guy that we insisted holding in the Melo deal. MDA and the executives like him.

  229. cgreene

    Sorry. TD does not fit into that category. But obv the Knicks have said that will not trade him. The other guys can be. Shump no.

  230. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    What do you think about the knicks putting a claim in on either baron davis or gilbert arenas for 2.5 million, and if they become a distraction you cut them and wash your hands clean?

    I’d gladly take Davis for $2.5 million. He’d have to clear secondary waivers first, though.

  231. cgreene

    I’d like to ask a question of the more knowledgeable stats people per the discussion between Jim and Cock. If when creating their “all-inclusive” basketball statistic methods such as PER or WP/48 they (Berri and Hollinger) came up with constructions that did not “match” with acceptable results in terms of who were the best players according to those stats. I.e. In PER 1.0 Lebron James came up as the 7th, 8th or 9th best player in the league. And then Hollinger made changes based on the fact that their must be an error in the formula if that was the case bc LBJ is “obviously” 1 or 2 or 3. Would that not suggest that their was a subjective bias in their method and that they in fact were doing exactly what Cock suggested is antithetical to science which is massaging the evidence to support the theory rather than the other way? Who is to say that did not happen in the creation of those stats? Meaning their most objective initial formulas didn’t deliver sensible results so they changed them based on perception?

  232. danvt

    Thomas B.: All that shows is that you need someone as good as Nash to make that mess work. I’m pretty sure I recall Karl Malone making contact…but maybe I’m wrong.

    Pick and roll has different outcomes. Most of the time you need to make contact. Sometimes you roll, sometimes you stay (to create a shot for the small player), sometimes you pop out for a jumper. Every so often, if the defender expects contact, you can fake a pick and go strait to a roll and get an easy layup. Picks can vary in terms of force and speed. I think, D’Antoni is very interested in lightning quick flashes to the hoop, involving less contact. Are we convinced Amar’e never makes contact?

  233. Jake S.

    I know we’re splitting hairs here, but was anyone else bummed that Aaron Gray signed with Toronto for the Veteran’s minimum? We could have used him, and especially at that price.

  234. DRed

    I’m surprised with all the support for bringing Crawford back. Even if we got him on the cheap, he’s still Jamal Crawford and he’s still a shitty basketball player.

  235. Jake S.

    Sort of like complaining that someone grabbed the last lime green polo shirt from the sales rack at Filene’s Basement, but still.

  236. JK47

    Gilbert Arenas has been a very bad basketball player for quite some time now. He has been miserable for four consecutive seasons. He had to have been one of the very worst players in the league last year who logged over 1500 minutes. You could find a better player from the D-League quite easily.

  237. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    I know we’re splitting hairs here, but was anyone else bummed that Aaron Gray signed with Toronto for the Veteran’s minimum? We could have used him, and especially at that price.

    No, I’m with you, Jake. That seems way too low for Gray.

  238. bbbb00123

    Not exactly knicks related:
    Why don’t Houston and the Lakers just perform a deal on their own, without the Hornets? The Lakers could give up Gasol, keeping Bynum, and would get back Scola and Kevin Martin. That would leave them with a strong, strong team, and they still have Bynum to build on for the future. I still don’t see why they gave up Odom, they could’ve had quite the team.

    Kobe
    Martin
    Odom
    Scola
    Bynum

    is a damn good team. I don’t know what everyone else thinks, but i would’ve done something along those lines. Gasol is getting pretty old. He’s losing his greatness as a Center/PF
    I’m also a big fan of Kevin Martin, i think he’s constantly being underrated. He’s truly a great scorer.

  239. Garson

    what about going after reggie evans. Would be a great backup at the 4 and 5. dont know his asking price but cant be too high.

  240. rohank

    Anyone concerned at all about the Pacers? We had trouble with them last year I think, and they’re upgrading quite well. They could be in play for one of those middle playoff seeds too.

  241. max fisher-cohen

    bbbb00123:
    Not exactly knicks related:
    Why don’t Houston and the Lakers just perform a deal on their own, without the Hornets? The Lakers could give up Gasol, keeping Bynum, and would get back Scola and Kevin Martin. That would leave them with a strong, strong team, and they still have Bynum to build on for the future. I still don’t see why they gave up Odom, they could’ve had quite the team.

    Kobe
    Martin
    Odom
    Scola
    Bynum

    is a damn good team. I don’t know what everyone else thinks, but i would’ve done something along those lines. Gasol is getting pretty old. He’s losing his greatness as a Center/PF
    I’m also a big fan of Kevin Martin, i think he’s constantly being underrated. He’s truly a great scorer.

    I agree, BBBB. I think the only answer to that is that LAL has some big plans for the trade exception they got in the Odom trade. They were going to get a similar one from the original Paul trade. My guess is it relates to a potential deal for Howard.

  242. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Anyone concerned at all about the Pacers? We had trouble with them last year I think, and they’re upgrading quite well. They could be in play for one of those middle playoff seeds too.

    I dunno about concerned, exactly, but yeah, they’ve definitely improved themselves.

    Collison
    Mayo
    Granger
    West
    Hibbert

    is nothing to sneeze at.

  243. jon abbey

    Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin): I dunno about concerned, exactly, but yeah, they’ve definitely improved themselves.

    Collison
    Mayo
    Granger
    West
    Hibbert

    is nothing to sneeze at.

    Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin): I dunno about concerned, exactly, but yeah, they’ve definitely improved themselves.

    Collison
    Mayo
    Granger
    West
    Hibbert

    is nothing to sneeze at.

    plus they traded for George Hill, and have Hansbrough and George coming off the bench. that’s a nice eight man rotation, they’re dangerous.

  244. The Surprisingly yet Cautiously Optimistic C. J., #1 Gentleman

    cgreene:
    I’d like to ask a question of the more knowledgeable stats people per the discussion between Jim and Cock.If when creating their “all-inclusive” basketball statistic methods such as PER or WP/48 they (Berri and Hollinger) came up with constructions that did not “match” with acceptable results in terms of who were the best players according to those stats.I.e. In PER 1.0 Lebron James came up as the 7th, 8th or 9th best player in the league.And then Hollinger made changes based on the fact that their must be an error in the formula if that was the case bc LBJ is “obviously” 1 or 2 or 3.Would that not suggest that their was a subjective bias in their method and that they in fact were doing exactly what Cock suggested is antithetical to science which is massaging the evidence to support the theory rather than the other way?Who is to say that did not happen in the creation of those stats?Meaning their most objective initial formulas didn’t deliver sensible results so they changed them based on perception?

    Hollinger didn’t change PER because he “knew” LeBron was the best player in the league. What gave you that idea? You find me one verifiable source that claims that and I’ll give you a pot o’gold, m’boy.

    Are you really supposing that they changed their metrics to match their preconceived notions of player ability? Seriously? Are you seriously serious?

  245. The Surprisingly yet Cautiously Optimistic C. J., #1 Gentleman

    bbbb00123:
    Gasol is getting pretty old. He’s losing his greatness as a Center/PF

    Let’s take a look at the stats, shall we?

    2010-11

    WS/48 0.232 (14.7 WS)
    WP/48 0.258 (16.3 WP)
    PER 23.3

    How about traditional stats?

    18.8 PPG, 10.2 RPG, 3.3 APG, 1.6 BPG, 1.7 TPG

    Okay, so he’s still All-NBA caliber. Oh, and he set a career high in minutes played at age 31. You could have found that out with a 10 second Google search.

  246. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    plus they traded for George Hill, and have Hansbrough and George coming off the bench. that’s a nice eight man rotation, they’re dangerous.

    Right, I forgot about the Hill trade. Interestingly, George makes it also feasible that they make the deal Bill Simmons keeps mentioning – Collison and Hibbert for Rondo and Jeff Green.

  247. Will the Thrill

    The only problem I have with all of these advanced stats is there is nothing that accounts for a players will to win or a killer instinct. Lebron can lead the league in WS/48, WP/48, and PER all year long but when it came down to it, he averaged 2 points in the 4th quarter in the NBA Finals. Something similar can be said for Pau, who has disappeared in a playoff series multiple times in his career. Even saying that though, Lebron is still obviously the best overall player in the league, though there are situations where you’d rather have an inferior player in his place.

  248. Jake S.

    Now that the Warriors have rescinded their qualifying offer, maybe the Knicks should go after Reggie Williams. He’s the kind of off guard that would give them the floor spacing they’re looking for. Or they could just sign Extra E and stop futzing around already.

  249. Jake S.

    I saw that Grantland piece, but why would the Pacers make that trade?

    I’m not that nervous about Indiana. Even with West, they’re not a great rebounding team, and I’m not sure they can stop anybody. Of course, you could have said the same about the Knicks as recently as last week…

  250. cgreene

    The Surprisingly yet Cautiously Optimistic C. J., #1 Gentleman: Hollinger didn’t change PER because he “knew” LeBron was the best player in the league. What gave you that idea? You find me one verifiable source that claims that and I’ll give you a pot o’gold, m’boy.

    Are you really supposing that they changed their metrics to match their preconceived notions of player ability? Seriously? Are you seriously serious?

    First off, “Gentleman”, I did not say that this had happened or that I had evidence of it. It was a question. Reread my post. What I said was it seems likely that (especially Hollinger who is not a stats professor but does have some mentoring in basketball stats from early in his career) the first time he sat down and started creating the formulas that he plugged them in and looked at the results and that some of those results did not make sense. So he looked at where and how he may have gotten some of the math wrong and tweaked it not so that Lebron came out #1 but because if he came out #10 then it would be obvious there was an error in the formula that needed to be tweaked. And that there is some bias in that. The bottom line though is that if that was in fact how the formula was honed it would make perfect sense and no one would fault him for it because it’s obvious that any formula that has Lebron as the 10th best player is a bad one. That’s all I meant.

    Moving on I am excited about TD as the starting PG. I look the mix of youth and experience and defensive and offensive minded players. I think the team will have good chemistry.

  251. The Surprisingly yet Cautiously Optimistic C. J., #1 Gentleman

    cgreene: What I said was it seems likely that (especially Hollinger who is not a stats professor but does have some mentoring in basketball stats from early in his career) the first time he sat down and started creating the formulas that he plugged them in and looked at the results and that some of those results did not make sense.So he looked at where and how he may have gotten some of the math wrong and tweaked it not so that Lebron came out #1 but because if he came out #10 then it would be obvious there was an error in the formula that needed to be tweaked.And that there is some bias in that.The bottom line though is that if that was in fact how the formula was honed it would make perfect sense and no one would fault him for it because it’s obvious that any formula that has Lebron as the 10th best player is a bad one.That’s all I meant.

    If he actually did that, he’s the biggest moron in the business. Total f***ing dolt.

    If he didn’t actually do that, why would you suggest that he might have?

    No, it doesn’t seem likely. That’s complete hogwash. Bullshit, even. Why would you assume that?

  252. John Kenney

    @324 his point is not that ridiculous. Why would hollinger choose to reward every shot taken above 33% shooting except for the fact that otherwise, AI Carmelo etc would have all been much lower than expected?

  253. JK47

    Now they’re saying it’s possibly Chris Kaman, Eric Bledsoe, Al-Farouq Aminu and Minnesota’s unprotected #1 pick for Chris Paul, plus they want Paul to pick up the option on his contract to make him a Clipper for an extra year.

    This seems like a pathetically weak haul for Chris Paul if you ask me– the only real useful asset is that #1 pick. All three Clippers posted a sub-.500 TS% last season and while Bledsoe and Aminu are young, neither guy jumps out at you as a stellar prospect. Bledsoe is an undersized shooting guard trying to learn to play point guard at the NBA level and Aminu is very raw– much more “athlete” than basketball player at this point. Kaman is, at this point in his career, little more than a perfunctory center. A sub-.500 TS% from a center is pretty embarrassingly poor.

    The Hornets should really be demanding Eric Gordon in this deal. It’s an absolute steal for the Clippers if all they are giving up is a #1, two iffy prospects and a generic center.

  254. iserp

    The Surprisingly yet Cautiously Optimistic C. J., #1 Gentleman: If he actually did that, he’s the biggest moron in the business. Total f***ing dolt.

    If he didn’t actually do that, why would you suggest that he might have?

    No, it doesn’t seem likely. That’s complete hogwash. Bullshit, even. Why would you assume that?

    Well, if you want to take any science into your stats, you must compare those stats to something…

    I guess Berri supposedly contrats his stats with the number of wins a team gets… but if the players stay put, he might just be assigning the wins to the wrong guy.

    If we could see a team consisting of Beno Udrih, Landry Fields, Tabo Sefolosha, Kris Humphries and Kevin Love (with some average players on the bench) 68 wins (as would be predicted by Berri’s model… i just took the WP total last season and suppose that in this new team all players would play the same minutes)… then, we could test if Berri’s correct. But some people know the answer to what fate would happen to that team. Without stats.

    That might be taking WP/48 to the extreme; but changes of WP across seasons, and specially across team changes tell us that it is not a reliable stat. Actually, no stat is really reliable; but if combined intelligently with observation (the TS% of this guy is incredible and he shoots forced 3s and long 2s, he should shoot more, the TS% of this guy is incredible but he only dunks, he should wait for his opportunities and not force the situation), then you can read a lot into the players game.

    So, comparing PER to traditional knowledge is not bad. If you think 10 guys are great and Hollinger tries to adjust PER for that, but still, PER says 9 of those guys are great, and 1 is not; maybe (just maybe) he found something that observation didn’t tell him.

  255. Z-man

    I would further state that combining stats is not wrong simply because it refutes an argument being made by a single “composite” stat. A player that achieves either a high WP 48 or PER at a relatively low usage rate can’t necessarily sustain that at a dramatically higher rate. The examples iserp provides are indicative of that. Certain “roles” suggest low usage numbers, and if some of the High-PER but low-WP48″ guys limited themselves to those roles, they could theoretically surpass the numbers put up by the lower usage players. For example, if Melo passed up half of his shots to Landry and only had to concentrate of rebounding, passing, and very selective shooting, it is rather likely that Landry’s WP48 would go down and Melo’s would go up. Trevor Ariza, who I have brought up on many occasions, is a good example of a player who can’t maintain his numbers at a higher usage rate.

    So, I agree with THCJ that “cherry-picking” stats to make a point is not valid, but neither is being completely dismissive of different opinions based on a differential look at a player in the context of his role and overall environment.

    Also, that THJC has gone from preaching “utter disgust and hopelessness” after the Melo trade to “cautious optimism” is, in essence, a major flip-flop. Either stick with your guns (that this is a hopelessly capped-out team with no prospects of getting beyond playoff mediocrity for years to come) or admit that you were wrong then, and therefore have the capacity to be wrong about other things.

  256. The Surprisingly yet Cautiously Optimistic C. J., #1 Gentleman

    Z-man,

    I’m completely dismissive of the attitude that one should change a formula to match better with the “eye-test.” That’s bad science. If that’s what Hollinger did, then for all his “expertise,” he’s a bad scientist. I would completely discredit his methodology.

    Why is it that Carmelo doesn’t have a high WP48 when there are other “superstars” with high usage rates that do? You’re essentially saying that it’s wrong about ‘Melo, but right about LeBron, Durant, Wade, and the rest of the high-usage, high[er]-efficiency players on other teams. It doesn’t work like that.

    Also, the idea that some possession are necessarily “garbage” possessions (meaning that a shot “must” be forced, a high-percentage play is an unrealistic expectation, someone “must” take the shot, so why not Shooter X instead of Role Player Y) is a farce. If you take ten shots away from the “black hole” of AI, you can distribute those ten shots among five to seven guys on the team. I don’t think it’s likely that all of those players have a significant drop in eFG%.

    Here’s a good read about the consistency of rebounds across seasons; rebounds are one of the most valued statistics in both the Four Factors and WP48.

    http://arturogalletti.wordpress.com/2011/06/09/argument-stoppers-rebounds-are-overrated-rev-1/

  257. The Surprisingly yet Cautiously Optimistic C. J., #1 Gentleman

    Also, I think that the changes in the CBA have allowed these moves to happen. (Correct me if I’m wrong about this; I thought we’d have enough for Gasol, but not a 4-yr/$58M contract.) I did not expect the Knicks to be able to get the absolute PERFECT complement to Amar’e (maybe Nene or Howard would be better, but I’ll take Chandler) and Melo.

    If the CBA ends up with a hard cap, no amnesty, and 50/50 split of revenue, we’re looking at a maxed-out situation with no opportunity for a third max player — possibly not even a decent center.

    Of course I know I can be wrong about things. I teach college composition at a state school a couple hours north of NYC, and tihs semester my students had to write an analytical essay showing how the pedagogical methods of my classroom effected an educational outcome. Many of them pointed to the first day of class on which I said (paraphrasing here), “I’m not a voice of absolute authority. I don’t have the answers to everything, and I’m open to well-constructed arguments of all kind. Your opinions matter, here.” And I believe that to be true here. Before I started reading this site, I had no idea that the Four Factors existed; I didn’t know that Dean Oliver (and Dean Smith, right?) is essentially a basketball oracle; I didn’t know that there was a way to evaluate basketball beyond points per game, etc. But those arguments are compelling. They make sense.

    My counterargument has always been that when there’s a better method out there, you work with it until you reach its limits. I don’t think that Carmelo’s been misrepresented by the metrics we do have. He’s not some exception with which we have to reevaluate the system. He just won a lot in college (like Sean May, et al.), and got a killer rep. And he’s never shook that image because he’s extremely athletic. I’m not prone to reevaluate the system because I “feel” that he’s top-tier. I’m willing reevaluate my ability to “see” win-producing talent.

  258. jon abbey

    I’d like to use the amnesty clause on every version of Mr. Cock, I feel he is probably a better fit in Houston (to name one) than he is with our fragile organization and fan base. Bon voyage!

  259. Z-man

    THJC,
    I appreciate your thoughtful, thorough and measured responses in 331 and 332. I agree with you on most points and will concede, as most posters here do, that Melo is a lesser all-around player than LeBron, Wade, or Durant. However, we do differ on this:
    “…the idea that some possession are necessarily “garbage” possessions (meaning that a shot “must” be forced, a high-percentage play is an unrealistic expectation, someone “must” take the shot, so why not Shooter X instead of Role Player Y) is a farce. If you take ten shots away from the “black hole” of AI, you can distribute those ten shots among five to seven guys on the team. I don’t think it’s likely that all of those players have a significant drop in eFG%”
    I am not aware of any evidence definitively supporting this assertion. Even if there was, it would not necessarily lead to the conclusion that Player A (Melo, Amare) is not worth acquiring because they will “play to their WS 48.” Amare’s WS’s with Phx varied from .181 to .262, then he comes here and puts up a .134, yet the team was on a trajectory to make the playoffs for the first time in a decade even before acquiring Melo. Who is the real Amare? Melo posted a WS 48 of .157 in his 27 games with the Knicks, which is above his career high in Denver. His PER and eFG were not only above his career averages, but at or above his career high year averages. He is also just 27. Potential must be factored in, no?

    A good question for you is: what would Melo have to do, strictly statistically speaking, to boost his WS 48 or WP 48 up to elite levels, and is he physically/mentally capable of doing that? If it is 1 more rebound, 1 more assist, and 2 less missed shots, for example, that is different than 3 rebounds, 5 assists and 8 less missed shots. Perhaps having a quick reference of each stat to its impact on WS 48 or WP 48 might be instructive.

  260. Z-man

    It is also important to note that Chandler was not just “attainable” under the salary cap, he CHOSE to sign with us even though other teams offered very similar terms. Do you think that he did that for the opportunity to play with Landry Fields

  261. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    It is also important to note that Chandler was not just “attainable” under the salary cap, he CHOSE to sign with us even though other teams offered very similar terms. Do you think that he did that for the opportunity to play with Landry Fields

    Until the Knicks called, he was prepared to sign with Golden State. The Knicks offered him more money than Golden State to play for a better team. That would certainly appear to be the main reason he came here. You can throw in “New York is an awesome city” stuff, as well, if you’d like, but I dunno if that is a motivator (since San Fran is a cool city, too).

  262. Z-man

    Golden State with Chandler (and Ellis, Curry, and Lee, among others) is a darn good team as well, possibly better than the Knicks. If I recall, the $ was very comparable.

  263. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Golden State with Chandler (and Ellis, Curry, and Lee, among others) is a darn good team as well, possibly better than the Knicks. If I recall, the $ was very comparable.

    Not as good as the Knicks (and in a tougher conference) and they were offering 4 years/$50 million while the Knicks offered 4 years/$56 million (early reports were $58, but I just checked and he officially signed for $56).

  264. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    By the way, speaking of the Warriors (and the Rockets, to a certain degree), who the hell amnesties players to make room under the cap so that you can put in an offer sheet that the other team will almost certainly match? How does that make any sense? Not only did the Warriors amnesty Charlie Bell, they renounced Reggie Williams!

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