Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Wednesday, October 22, 2014

It’s Kinda-Official? Knicks Get ‘Melo

Lots of media outlets reporting that the Knicks have finally traded for Carmelo Anthony. According to the New York Times’ Howard Beck :

The Knicks will get Anthony, a 6-foot-8 small forward, along with the veteran point guard Chauncey Billups and three nominal role players – forwards Shelden Williams and Renaldo Balkman and guard Anthony Carter.

In exchange, Denver will receive four of the Knicks’ top players – Danilo Gallinari, Raymond Felton, Wilson Chandler and Timofey Mozgov – along with the Knicks’ first-round pick in 2014. The Knicks are also giving up two second-round picks acquired from Golden State, in 2012 and 2013, and will send $3 million cash to Denver.

As part of the deal, the Knicks will send Anthony Randolph, Eddy Curry and $3 million to Minnesota, in exchange for Corey Brewer. The Knicks have not yet decided whether to keep Brewer or flip him in another deal. They have several other trade possibilities in the works as they approach the N.B.A.’s Thursday trading deadline.

So some quick thoughts on the deal:

* New York has not only paid with starters (Chandler and Gallinari), but have swapped their PG (Felton/Billups) while giving up depth (Mozgov and Randolph) and a couple of picks (1st in 2014, GSW 2nd in 2012 and 2013). This transforms the Knick bench from average with a few holes (PG, C) to thin. New York did address their PG problem, (at least at the starter level) but decimated their center position.

* Just about every Knick fan has an opinion on Carmelo, but what about the other guys?

* Shelden Williams is a good rebounder, and active defender (perhaps at 4.8 pf/36 too active), but is not a shot blocker (1.1 blk/36). Hoopsdata has him as terribly inconsistent jump shooter, and he’s not an efficient scorer (career TS% 51.9%).

* Anthony Carter statistically looks like Chris Duhon without a three point shot. To stick around this long in the league with a TS% of 45.3% and 3P% of 24.6%, he must be a pleasure in practice. Hopefully D’Antoni will have him sit next to Toney Douglas to have his wisdom rub off, while never leaving the bench.

* Corey Brewer is a 6-9 ball hawk (1.8 stl/36), decent passer (2.5 ast/36), and stout defender who can’t rebound (4.7 reb/36) or score (47.6 TS%). Rumors has it that the Knicks aren’t sure if they’re going to keep him. Unless he were an awesome defender, you’d think you could find that kind of production at the replacement level.

* I’d give my left arm for Renaldo Balkman to get some decent minutes in his second stint with the Knicks. He can rebound, push the ball up the floor, and is the best perimeter defender at small forward that I’ve seen in New York. Unfortunately I’d need my left arm, since I have a better chance of seeing floor time under D’Antoni. Balkman has seen diminishing play in Denver, and isn’t noted for trying hard in practice. Throw in that he has no outside shot, will likely only see time at PF, is a bit similar to one of the guys he’s replacing (Anthony Randolph) who saw little time, and I have no hope of Balkman getting any serious burn.

* Chauncey Billups is probably the guy I’m most excited about. He’s so efficient that he hasn’t had a TS% below 59% since 2004. It’s been clear that Felton has been hurting the team since his offense has come back down to his normal levels, and this is an serious upgrade for the Knicks. The big question is how much does Billups have left in the tank? He’s 34 years old, and is probably a place-holder for Chris Paul or Derron Williams. At least Knick fans hope that is the plan.

* Gallinari and Mozgov were probably two of the fans most favorite players, with Fields being the third. When pushed the other day by thenewyorkknickspodcast.com to state my favorite player, I named Gallo. Ah well, I guess I’ll have to find someone to fill that void.

*If Howard Beck is correct, New York is sending and receiving six players. That means there are no open spots unless they release someone. If the team was receiving less, then you could probably pencil in Earl Baron. Personally I don’t think much of Baron. He has a career TS of 42.5%, and even in his best season (7 games for the Knicks) he only managed 50.8%.

* Anyone doubt that Eddy Curry is going to see minutes in Minnesota? They seem to love former Knick big-men. Theoretically playing alongside Kevin Love should mask his defensive rebounding issues, but they would be awful defensively. That is if Eddy is still interested in suiting up.

* Trying to figure out the Knicks depth chart is difficult. The starting lineup should be Billups-Fields-Melo-Amar’e-Turiaf. But what will it be when Ronny is hurt? That will likely depend on the opponent. Douglas and Carter will be the back-up PG, unless Rautins can make the rotation. For Andy, it seems like there could be a small opening for him to make the far end of the rotation. Douglas along with Walker will probably see time behind Fields at off-guard. Additionally maybe Roger Mason could make an appearance at either guard spot. Although I’d be against that happening.

At SF, you’d think when D’Antoni isn’t going small with two guards plus Fields, then Walker or perhaps Balkman will see time. But who is going to see time at PF and C? Carmelo will likely see time at PF, and Shawne Williams will keep his role as undersized center. But who else? It’ll be a battle between Sheldon Williams, Corey Brewer, and perhaps someone the Knicks pickup, like Earl Barron. Certainly the team lacks size at center – as I said a spot that was made weaker by this deal.

* New York’s depth chart might look something like this:
PG: Billups, Douglas, ? (Carter, Rautins, Mason)
SG: Fields, Douglas, Walker, Mason?
SF: ‘Melo, Walker, Balkman
PF: Stat, ‘Melo?, Shawne, ? (Balkman, Sheldon Williams, Corey Brewer)
C: Turiaf, Stat, Shawne, ? (Sheldon Williams, Corey Brewer, Earl Barron)

* Could New York make another deal? There haven’t been any rumors, but I could see another deal going through. Who could New York trade? Obviously any of the players traded could be traded quickly or released. I think D’Antoni has grown accustomed to Douglas’ defensive energy, but another team could take him away at the right price. Roger Mason could be a throw-in, if needed. However, New York’s biggest trading chip would be Bill Walker, a young player that could emerge as a good scoring option off the bench. In return for any deal, getting some size and rebounding would be a priority for the Knicks.

149 comments on “It’s Kinda-Official? Knicks Get ‘Melo

  1. Robert Silverman

    I’d see if Portland would do a Pryzbilla – Azubuike/Walker trade. Or Jeff Foster. Or anyone over 6’10” with an operant limbic system.

    I dunno guys. I just miss Gallo, Felt & Moz too much to think rationally.

  2. Brian Cronin

    I’d see if Portland would do a Pryzbilla – Azubuike/Walker trade. Or Jeff Foster. Or anyone over 6’10? with an operant limbic system.

    Yeah, Azu should be able to net the Knicks a decent back-up center like Pryzbilla and Foster.

  3. Brian Cronin

    That said, I’d prefer the Knicks hold on to Azu and at least see if he can’t give them something this season.

  4. Robert Silverman

    Brian Cronin:
    Yeah, Azu should be able to net the Knicks a decent back-up center like Pryzbilla and Foster.  

    If Azu doesn’t play this year, insurance covers his deal. It’s a money-saver, potentially

  5. Robert Silverman

    massive: Losing Gallo is really gonna hurt later on.  

    It hurts right now. “I’m in glass box of emotion!” — Ron Burgundy

  6. Ben R

    New Orleans was recently, over the summer, looking for anyone to take Okafor. Maybe we can oblige. Brewer, Turiaf and Mason gets it done maybe. Long contract, okay player, but he would give us rebounding, defense and at least a little size. I would also like to keep Azubuike, resign him this summer. He is a good player, when he finally gets back from his injury he is instantly our 5th best player.

    I am going to really miss Gallo as well. Mozgov to a lesser extent but I really liked Gallo, he was my favorite Knick.

  7. Mike R

    I just really really hope Gallo does not wind up in New Jersey/Brooklyn. That would be extremely difficult to deal with. It would be like your ex moving next door to you lol

  8. Brian Cronin

    I just really really hope Gallo does not wind up in New Jersey/Brooklyn. That would be extremely difficult to deal with. It would be like your ex moving next door to you lol

    Agreed.

  9. massive

    Was any of this confirmed by either team? What if this whole thing was a lie and the Knicks ended up trading only Chandler, Randolph, Felton, and Curry? The Knicks did have all of the leverage and we ended up giving them EVERYTHING they wanted from day 1? I don’t know, it just seems too fishy.

  10. Robert Silverman

    Mike R: I just really really hope Gallo does not wind up in New Jersey/Brooklyn.That would be extremely difficult to deal with. It would be like your ex moving next door to you lol  

    I kinda hope he does – I’d love to have him stay in NYC

  11. Mike R

    I see your point being that we would be able to watch him play (and develop into a potential all-star) whenever we wanted it would just be a pretty big conflict of interest being that I’ve really come to despise the Net franchise as a whole. Also, I would kind of feel bad for him that he would end up being stuck on that team. At least he’d have Kim K cheering him on every night.

  12. Z

    So, in the end Melo is the “player to be named later” in the Jared Jeffries trade of 2010. Knicks give up Jeffries, Hill, Gallo, Chandler, 2012 pick, 2014 pick for Carmelo Anthony.

  13. MarcusHatten

    I don’t like the deal, not because I think it is a bad deal, but I think it could have gotten done for less… However, it’s about winning championships, and we have a better chance right now, then we have had for what, 11 Years?

  14. Mowgli

    I’d suffer less if my gfriend leaves me then seeing Gallo with another jersey… 3 years time he’ll be a better player then what is Melo today!

  15. MarcusHatten

    I will miss Gallo, Will, and Ray. How many championships did they bring us, and how many were they going to? NONE!!! Are we better THIS year? probably not, but we are not worse… The Knicks have put themselves in position to contend for the next 3 years (at least). I’m sorry as much as I liked those players I want to contend, and we never where going to before…

  16. iserp

    We’re not worse, but we are playing all our cards to sign someone with the cap space in 2012. We could have signed Melo in the offseason and then renounce everyone, and the result would have been the same, but we could have checked the evolution of Timo, Gallo and Felton.

    Now Denver will have the young team AND the cap space plus some picks, they managed a really good deal.

  17. Spree8nyk8

    I know we traded our 2012 pick to denver but did we gain A pick from minn? Im not seeing anyone saying that pick went to denver.

  18. MarcusHatten

    The 2014 first rounder was Minni’s (for Randolph), and the 2 second rounders were ours 2012 and 2013(if i’m not mistaken).

  19. BigBlueAL

    I love Gallo and wish him all the best. I assume he will be a very good player in the future but I have a feeling if he stays in Denver this season he may be pretty bad and struggle to even get minutes if they dont make any other trades.

    Also as Ive mentioned before his FT rate this year has been a great improvement but it has been his only improvement. Still a bad rebounder, no assists to speak of plus his FG and 3pt% have both gotten worse every season. He is only 22 yo and again I wish him the best but the odds of him never getting better than what he is right now is just as good as him ever becoming an All-Star. Plus now having to play in the West night in and night out if he stays in Denver?? Good luck to Gallo because he might really need it.

    P.S. I know even if he doesnt improve and just plays like he is doing now he still will be a very good player but I think everyone just assuming he will become an All-Star one day is premature. With that I will miss Gallo alot as well and again really do wish him the best. Unlike the shots Ive taken at David Lee this year I will not point out or take any pleasure in seeing Gallo struggle if that does indeed happen. Of course I dread reading any time he has a good game and Melo struggles the people here complaining just like it happened with Lee and Amar’e during the first 11 games of the season.

  20. MarcusHatten

    would you rather have Dirk? He is a better rebounder and defender, but he is not and never has been a more dynamic scorer. I will concede that in his prime Dirk and Melo (now) are close in value…

  21. Batman

    This is how the Knicks should have handled it…get the Melo camp on the phone (let’s not pretend they haven’t been able to talk to him before this weekend) and tell him, “look, we really want you, we WILL get you by the deadline and we WILL give you that extension, we just don’t want to give up everything because, let’s face it, you and STAT aren’t winning any Larry O’Brien’s by yourselves. Just be patient and say that you’ll come here for chump change in the offseason if that’s what it takes. Again, don’t worry, we WILL get you that extension.” Simple enough. Both sides get what they want. Melo gets his extension and a Knicks uni while we give up as little as possible. Then the Nuggets panic, knowing that they have to dump him for whatever they can get and that the all other teams are out of the picture. The Knicks have all of the leverage and can force whatever the hell they want down Denvers throat. We lowball, then compromise and give up something like Chandler, Gallinari and a few picks. Essentially, this is where we were three weeks ago because Donnie Walsh is a boss.

    The first mistake was by Melo when he started saying stuff like “I don’t know how much NY wants me, maybe i’ll go to the nets if they’re the only ones willing to pay me.” As a result, the Nuggets start leaking those “Nets a viable option” rumors again, gaining a bit of leverage. Then Dolan blows all of our leverage when he starts showing desperation and saying he’ll do whatever it takes to get Melo. More than anything else, that is what forced us to overpay. In this big, 3 handed game of poker between the Knix, Nuggs, and Nets, we showed our bluff first. Dolan stayed true to his roots and publicly showed how much he needed to get melo. That left us with absolutely no leverage.

    Such a letdown. Even when a superstar declares that he will only play for the Knicks and no one else, we blow it and overpay. What a disappointment.

  22. Brian Cronin

    would you rather have Dirk? He is a better rebounder and defender, but he is not and never has been a more dynamic scorer. I will concede that in his prime Dirk and Melo (now) are close in value…

    I’d rather have Dirk now over Melo, let alone Dirk when he was the same age as Melo.

    Dirk’s putting up a .622 TS% this season! .622!!!

    That’s the main reason Melo is averaging only 2 more points a game over Dirk despite taking more than 3 shots more per game.

  23. Brian Cronin

    The first mistake was by Melo when he started saying stuff like “I don’t know how much NY wants me, maybe i’ll go to the nets if they’re the only ones willing to pay me.”

    Is it a mistake if his main priority was getting to the Knicks with the extension?

  24. Nick C.

    Ugh. Puke. I feel just like I did when the Jets got Brett Favre … perplexed at how people got so jacked up over such a dead end move. Come to think about it IIRC the buzz was the same when Vaseline boy came over. Get ready to watch a lot of 123-116 losses. Woo hoo. And how do they replace the 32+PPG and over 10 RPG they were getting from WC and Gallo for all the PG stat freaks out there? So disgusted and shocked at how shallow people’s thinking can be (not really anyone here just the radio, papers et. al.).

  25. David Crockett

    Brian Cronin:
    I’d rather have Dirk now over Melo, let alone Dirk when he was the same age as Melo.
    Dirk’s putting up a .622 TS% this season! .622!!!
    That’s the main reason Melo is averaging only 2 more points a game over Dirk despite taking more than 3 shots more per game.  

    Completely unrelated to this particular discussion, the name just made me think about Marcus Hatton. He was my least favorite player of all-time at any level. Only former Michigan Wolverine Antoine Joubert and former Pitt Panther Carl Krause are in the discussion.

    Perhaps my favorite Marcus Hatton moment came on the Johnnies’ “The Season” type show. After another brutal loss, then coach Mike Jarvis in the post-game locker room locks his unwavering gaze right onto Hatton, shakes his head and just says, “Selfish. Selfish. Selfish.”

    As for Dirk vs. Melo, even if you don’t want to go the advanced stat route, there is little in basketball that Melo is better at than Dirk Nowitzki. And that’s just eyeballing it, without even getting into advanced stats. I don’t need my scorers to be dynamic. I just need them to score without missing a lot. Dirk’s better. Melo may be more dynamic I suppose, but I’m not even sure about that. It’s not like Melo plays above the rim. Both he and Dirk basically shoot mid-range jumpers–except Dirk has more range and better consistency. He’s also led his team–which has historically had roughly similar talent as Denver–further in the playoffs. What am I missing?

  26. David Crockett

    One thing to keep in mind ‘Bocker fans, is that trades–almost by definition–are moves that keep you running in place. It’s rare that a single trade truly catapults you to another place, particularly under the CBA. Most trades essentially change the flavor of the bag of chips you’re eating. You don’t normally go from eating chips to steak and potatoes.

    I see the Melo trade that way in the short term. The trade was pricey, and at the end of the day teams typically don’t have as much leverage as they think once negotiations wear on for a while. (It’s a bit like, “if you were gonna walk away you’d have done it by now.”)

    Whether Melo is a superstar is kind of irrelevant. He’s a well above-average player overall and I think a player who will compliment Stoudamire well. Fields now becomes a player who NY must now count on to be the same uber-efficient stat-sheet stuffer in more minutes. Two years from now, that’s probably the core–Amare’-Melo-Fields. That’s far from awful. You can win consistently with that core. The big question now is, what can we put around that core to become a true contender?

    If there is a downside to this trade, the most obvious one is the loss of flexibility. We will see how true Chris Broussard’s notion is that “you can always find role players.”

  27. Z-man

    I just read that the reason the Knicks caved is that the Nets were willing to make the deal w/o Melo signing an extension. Prokorov would have gambled that Melo would have eventually capitulated to get the $65 million (or perhaps gotten an even better return on a sign and trade?) If true, at least it adds a small iota of logic to caving in the way we did.

  28. Frank O.

    Look, it’s not only about whether Gallo thought he was a star-quality player, or whether Mosgov was dominant or that Wilson was a more efficient, lesser talent or Felton’s grit alone.
    I felt like this was a team. Organically grown, they played together with a youthful exuberance. Yes there were games of uneven play, but more often than not, they played hard, they played tough and they played 48 minutes, which is more than I can say for most any Knicks team since the early 70s.
    Even in games that no one believed they would win, even down 20 points to good teams, this youthful group of players never stopped believing they were going to be better.
    I loved that Landry would hug Mosgov, and Felton would stand there with Amare’s hand on his head. I loved that WC’s teammates never stopped believing in Wilson, and knew that he was a somewhat odd soul in a sport filled with unjustifiably confident players. Wilson rarely showed emotions, but he wore his vulnerability on his sleeve, or perhaps his skin.
    When Mosgov had his huge break out game, there was unbridled joy among his teammates, even as he tried to process humbly what had just happened in his second language.
    I grew to love this plucky, young, young team. It felt like a college team unexpectedly performing well in the March tournament.
    They were black and white, Italian, Russian, French and American. They were New York optimism, hope and grit, and we knew that even if Ray took ill-advised shots, or Mosgov didn’t quite finish as smartly as we hoped or WC’s confidence seemed perishable from day to day, they would never stop fighting. I loved that about this team. They were a team, played together, believed in each other.
    Now, Amare, who is an old professional, has that coldness of a willful champion and he has two more cold-hearted pros, multi-millionaires, around him. We’ll eventually enjoy them, but for a while we’ll all wonder…

  29. Z-man

    Good post, Frank O.

    It just occurred to me (sorry if someone has already pointed this out, I’m post-fatigued) that this trade would have flushed away every remnant of Isiah’s Reign of Error, had we not gotten Renaldo Tokeman back. On a serious note, will Renaldo get some minutes at the undersized C position?

  30. MarcusHatten

    Ok ok, this is not about Melo Vs. Dirk, and Marcus Hatten is not an NBA talent. Regardless, I think this trade is a worth while risk. The Knicks just added a second superstar player, and in doing so gave them a CHANCE to add a third. Which is the only chance they had to compete for a championship. Which they had no chance of prior…

  31. MarcusHatten

    Also, Marcus Hatten may be no Bootsy Thornton, but he was a good college player. 2 time All Big East, NIT champion and NIT MVP, averaged over 20pts 5reb 4 ast both years @ SJU, led an inferior SJU team to the NCAA tournament. Plus Melo is better than Dirk…

  32. d-mar

    @42 Frank O., I feel you, I liked a lot of those guys too, but let’s not get too sentimental here. This team has been struggling mightily lately, and losing to some pretty god awful teams along the way. Chances are we would finish with 40-42 wins and probably get manhandled by the Bulls in round 1. Now I’m not saying that will automatically change with this new lineup, but I do know if we get down to the final minutes in a game 5 vs. Chicago, I like our chances a LOT more with this team than with the prior one.

  33. d-mar

    Also, re: Gallo, he was one of my favorite Knicks also, I liked his spirit, his enthusiasm, his hair gel, but what really is his ceiling? Probably Bargnani, which is not bad at all, mind you, but he’s not an All Star. Many make the assumption that Gallo will just keep getting better and eventually become an elite player, that is far from assured IMO.

    All that being said, I’ll root for the guy to do well, but really hope it’s not in NJ.

  34. ewsoloff

    massive:
    Its hilarious how Gallo is now a premier shooting forward now. Wasn’t he just a role player in New York. ESPN is so disgusting.  

    I think it said perimeter shooting forward, but the media had a field day with this one. Not as bad as LeBron though. I was personally always rooting for the day when the garden would light up with rooster calls when Gallo hit a big three but the rooster thing never quite caught on. He is definitely the one I was enjoying watching develop. I also thought that Mozgov was a good prospect. I think if we hadn’t heard the report about the entire trade going down for just AR and WC it wouldn’t have been as bad. It just got progressively worse and worse. How many times over the past 5 years has our entire team been blown up mid season. I feel like this is a regular event but clearly this is the one that hurt the most and hopefully has the most upside. I also hope that in the end someone besides Dolan did the math behind whether the salaries add up to a future team as in could we even sign Fields not to mention players around the three. It’s tough to follow a team when you can’t grow a single player and watch them develop.

  35. Owen

    Melo better than Dirk? We all wish Carmelo had an 118 offensive rating.

    I went to Basketball Value to see if I could find some scrap of consolation in the adjusted +/- numbers. Carmelo wasn’t to be found on the top players page unfortunately…

  36. Doug

    massive: There was talk of Gallo going to the Clippers. I hope he ends up there.  

    I’d be OK with that. I’d make the Clippers my second team in a heartbeat if that happened.

  37. Frank

    Meanwhile Hahn is still saying that the 2014 pick may be coming from minnesota, not us.

    “The Knicks get Carmelo Anthony and Chauncey Billups, along with former Knick Renaldo Balkman, forward Shelden Williams and guard Anthony Carter from Denver and Corey Brewer and, though I can’t entirely confirm it, it sounds like a first round pick from Minnesota, as well.”

    http://mobile.newsday.com/inf/infomo;JSESSIONID=66BBE7147BBECF2669C2.3072?site=newsday&view=sports_item&feed:a=newsday_5min&feed:c=sports&feed:i=1.2704473

  38. eyeke

    Don’t sleep on Brewer yet.
    I know his numbers haven’t been great, but I’ve been following him since his freshman year at Florida and he’s got more defensive upside than anyone on the Knicks roster today. I’d love to see him turn into a slightly smaller Marion in SSoL, and hopefully the Minnesota winters haven’t completely ruined his fire.
    He plays great on a big stage and was the most important piece of the Gators championship runs in my opinion. He shouldn’t have to provide any offense with Melo and STAT on the floor, so he can concentrate on shutting down the best wing players in the league.

    I’m surprised you don’t have him listed on the depth chart at the wing spots. I’m guessing he splits time with Landry defending the opponents best 2/3 to keep Melo out of foul trouble.
    Billups is a bandaid, and a horrible fit with SSoL. Is it too early to start campaigning for D Will or Paul? I’m sure D Will will abandon my hometown Jazz the second he gets an opening.

  39. Caleb

    @54 That would be nice… is it possible we could end up with the #15 and 20 pick, give or take, in this year’s draft? AR was worth more but it’s less embarrassing.

    But let’s get real – this was a bad move. If everyone stays healthy the Knicks will be a little better this year, but next year it’s a wash and beyond that they probably torpedoed themselves. It only looks ok if the cap ends up bigger than expected – because if they have $16-18 million cap room, I predict one of the other stars WILL come and make it a big 3. Without an addition like that, they’re probably stuck.

    The actual players in the trade aren’t what’s so terribly discouraging – heck, they could flip Billups and Anthony for something better if this doesn’t work out. Carmelo with 3 years to go on his contract would bring an awful lot back. And at least they’re pretty good players.

    So why is it a disaster? This signals that Dolan and the clowns are back in charge. The ludicrous bidding against ourselves. Adding at least 3, probably 4 assets we didn’t need, to cinch the trade. Most public figures we call “stupid” aren’t really THAT stupid. This one is.

    We spent 5 years knowing that whatever moves we talked about were fantasy – management was going to do something stupid. Then we had 2 years of fresh air. Now we just put up a giant “kick me” sign on our back – the entire league knows where to find its sucker. Mark my words… there is more idiotic insanity to come… and I’d guess that Donnie Walsh, who took down the “Kick Me” sign, is probably out the door in a couple of months.

  40. Caleb

    Name that tune!

    The phone don’t ring
    And the sun refused to shine.
    Never thought I’d have to pay so dearly, for what was already mine
    For such a long long time
    We made mad love, shadow love, random love and abandoned love
    Accidentally, like a martyr
    The hurt gets worse and the heart gets harder..

  41. Z

    Any word whether we demanded Billups or acquiesced to taking him? If we hadn’t swapped PGs we could have done this trade without involving Minnesota (and thus keeping AR), right?

    Also– any word as to what the extension looks like? Is it for the full $65 mil?

  42. Frank

    @56 – not sure there is much more to sucker out of us – only guy left is Landry.

    So obviously our biggest weakness is frontcourt. I’d love to see the Barron come back, but what about some D-league guys. Sean Williams, he of no brain but crazy shotblocking and rebounding skillz, seems to have gotten his head on right, at least according to DraftExpress.

    http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Sean-Williams-392/playerblog/

    And our old friend Nick Fazekas is always available!!

  43. Caleb

    Here’s Vecsey in the Post:

    “Those close to D’Antoni strongly hint he might not want Anthony under any circumstances, but definitely was against surrendering so much — Raymond Felton, Danilo Gallinari and Wilson Chandler, in particular — in the process.

    ‘Mike is well aware Stoudemire and Anthony are not a good fit,’ said a D’Antoni confidant. At either end.”

    Aside from stating the obvious – basketball-wise – we now have D’Antoni friends ripping the deal, and yesterday we had Walsh friends washing his hands of the deal. Vecsey is right: how long are those guys sticking around? And who do you think will replace them?

    Meanwhile, does anyone know what our deadline is to exercise Billups’ option? Might the Knicks cut him loose – could they find a decent, cheap one-year replacement? If they drop him this summer they could sign a FA… who knows, bring back Wilson Chandler!

  44. Frank

    Caleb:
    Meanwhile, does anyone know what our deadline is to exercise Billups’ option? Might the Knicks cut him loose – could they find a decent, cheap one-year replacement?

    Wow – that would be maybe the only thing that could be worse than what has already happened. In my mind Billups is the only saving grace of this trade. Why would we want to get rid of him? TS 63.4%, career 40% from 3 and 90% from line, solid veteran leader. THIS part of the trade was a total no-brainer, as much as I loved our short time with Felton.

  45. Caleb

    @63 To find a player who might be here beyond next season.

    But we have a black hole at PG – you can’t let him go without a backup plan.

  46. d-mar

    Jeez, now Peter Vecsey is our go to guy for Knicks comments? The guy has been irrelevant to the NBA for about 10 years, making predictions that never pan out and using cutesy language and stupid puns to trash whoever he feels like trashing on a particular day. Plus, he’s been totally anti-Knick for years, so it’s hard to take him seriously.

  47. Z-man

    Caleb: For better and worse, Sean Williams would be a classic Isiah signing…  

    Yeah, but it would be another step in our quest to corner the market on the S. Williams commodity :)

  48. Garson

    One thing this trade does , IMO is open things up for Amare in many ways…

    Billups and Fields are above avg 3 point shooters which opponents need to respect.

    Melo does command double teams, and watching some denver games, hes not totalling incapable of finding the open man.

    When amare does have the ball in the post, can teams afford to double him? I dont really think so anymore.

    My only concern is Billups ability to run the P&R…

  49. Z

    Pretty sure Billup’s 2011-12 year kicks in six days after the season ends. If he is waived before that time it costs the Knicks $3.5 million (not against the cap).

  50. phreesh

    1) We now have 2 stars who WANTED to go to NY. Both Melo and STAT delivered themselves to NY, so they have more at stake than players who are traded at the GM’s whim. Plenty of teams (NO, Utah, etc) would love to have their stars clearly on the record pining to play there.

    2) Don’t be so pessimistic about Chauncy. Yeah, he’s old, but he hasn’t shown a significant decline and older PGs (Kidd, Nash) have shown they can still run the show. He’s better than Felton and could have another 5 productive years in him.

  51. Caleb

    No one’s pessimistic about Chauncey, he’s an upgrade on Felton (and a huge upgrade on the PNR, as well as 3-point shooting) – but Billups vs. Felton is basically irrelevant to the big picture – we’re not getting higher than a 4 or 5 seed this year or next, and they’re both gone in 2012.

  52. Caleb

    @73 Hollinger said for months the Nuggets should call Carmelo’s bluff, since they would have the advantage in re-signing him as a FA. Then when the Knicks unilaterally jacked up their offer, he said it was a jaw-dropping opportunity for the Nuggets. Now the Knicks threw in Mozgov for no reason, so he’s giving them a D+… that’s smart. And consistent.

  53. Mike Kurylo Post author

    @44, @73 – can we realize that ESPN is not the Borg? They don’t have a collective hive mind (shared with all the mainstream media). They are different people, much like Knickerblogger readers are different people. Hollinger gave the Knicks a D+, and he’s more like a majority of KnickerBlogger readers than let’s say Steven A. Smith or Mike Wilbon.

    So let’s not bash the mainstream collectively. If there is someone who has said New York has to trade everything for Carmelo, and are now bashing the team – that’s the individual to target as hypocritical. I don’t think Hollinger has been one of those.

  54. Garson

    “A surprising area in which adding Anthony could help New York is on the glass. While he may be unable to maintain his career-high average of 7.6 rebounds per game, Anthony projects as the Knicks’ second-leading rebounder. Contributions from wings Anthony and Fields on the boards will help New York overcome the poor rebounding of its big men. As a team, the Knicks are projected to improve from 26th in the NBA in rebounding to 15th, right at league average.”

    From ESPN… Can that be accurate?

  55. JK47

    Okay, I’m going to put on my optimist hat and try to think of all of this in a positive light.

    Without question, we’re a better offensive team. Raymond Felton, he of the career .498 TS%, was our second option on offense before this trade. The cat was taking 15 shots per game. Since his early season hot streak, he has been stinking it up mightily. In January and February he was 31 for 105 from beyond the arc– a pitiful .295 percentage. That’s 31 makes and 74 bricks, friends. I’m not going to miss that ineptitude.

    Despite the departure of the recently resurgent Timofey Mozgov, we shouldn’t be a worse rebounding team. We’ll be subtracting lots of minutes of Danilo Gallinari and Wilson Chandler (7.7 and 9.7 TRB% respectively) and replacing them with a boatload of Carmelo Anthony (12.5 TRB%) and presumably doling out more minutes to Shawne and Shelden Williams (10.6 and 18.1 TRB% respectively). Depending on who gets the minutes, I expect our rebounding to improve a little, actually.

    Ronnie Brewer sucks at a lot of things but he is by all accounts a nasty perimeter defender. Considering we have two super high-usage players (Melo, Stat) and two super-efficient players (Billups, Fields) who should be seeing loads of minutes, perhaps a defensive specialist like Brewer and a rebounding specialist like Shelden Williams could find a valuable niche on this squad.

    Hopefully before long we will learn to love this new team.

  56. ess-dog

    Sad to see Gallo and Moz go. It was bad but could’ve been worse. It looks like the trade had to be done (Dolan) and then Walsh came in and cleaned up the details.
    Getting a guy like Brewer is definitely a silver lining. He’s one of the best wing defenders in the game (despite being a total zero on offense) and one of the only players I would actually want off the Wolves. He will be great off the bench although it’s doubtful we re-sign him after the year unless we move a few others.
    Hey, SOMEONE on this team needs to play defense (coughmelocough.)
    If the 2014 pick is Minny’s, even more silver lining.
    Billups should be fine in this system. The p&r will be a ton better and thank god for Chauncey because we need someone to shoot the three ball now. You could do a lot worse as your third option.
    Fields is Fields. Glad he stays.
    Turiaf is not a bad fit actually but can he stay healthy? We’ll need some extra passing and shot blocking and he brings that. But he’s clearly limited to twenty minutes a game.
    Of course, I can see D’Antoni running a Billups/Brewer/Fields/Melo/Stat lineup often.
    It was a nice treat to have a 7’1″ guy that had talent at both ends in the starting lineup for a while. That kinda sucks.
    But you have to like our chances of getting one of D-Will/CP3 in 2012. They just have to hold out and not sign any extensions.
    And don’t forget the unleashed power of Jerome Jordan!
    All in all, I’m still not psyched about Melo, but if he becomes our 3rd option in 2012, then it will be worth it.

  57. ess-dog

    Caleb: @73 Hollinger said for months the Nuggets should call Carmelo’s bluff, since they would have the advantage in re-signing him as a FA. Then when the Knicks unilaterally jacked up their offer, he said it was a jaw-dropping opportunity for the Nuggets. Now the Knicks threw in Mozgov for no reason, so he’s giving them a D+… that’s smart. And consistent.  

    Sorry I jumped the gun and didn’t see it was Hollinger.

  58. Nick C.

    ess-dog: This is beyond irritating since they have been saying it’s a “no brainer” for months. What a bunch of A-holes.  (Quote)

    that was the exact thought that came to mind when I saw that.

  59. Brian Cronin

    I’d be OK with that. I’d make the Clippers my second team in a heartbeat if that happened.

    Yeah, I could totally live with Gallo on the Clippers.

  60. Brian Cronin

    If true, at least it adds a small iota of logic to caving in the way we did.

    Agreed. It will be interesting to find out if that’s true or not (it will eventually come out, right?).

  61. ess-dog

    But a D+ is a little harsh. We upgraded at two positions and held onto our draft picks, maybe even the 2014. Chandler could make up to 10 mil next year, Moz is still far from a reliable player and AR, while talented, had issues getting into the rotation at all.
    Plus I think it was a very real threat that either a) Melo would rather take the extension in NJ than stay in Denver and wait until the summer, and b) that NJ might eventually trade for Melo even without him signing the extension. If you want Melo (like Dolan did) it’s not like you have total hand in the situation.
    Next year, there won’t be the specter of the cba, so CP3/DWill will just ride things out and sign with us after the year. They don’t really owe their respective teams anything, that’s what free agency is for, and I’m guessing they’ll take less to be in NYC. That is the main reason for this Melo trade IMO.

    As for Gallo, I’m hearing that the Clips are offering the Wolves pick for him. What a great place that would be for Gallo. Bookended by Griffin and Gordon. The three G’s. What a great team that would be to watch… I hope it happens.

  62. Mike R

    Does anyone know why this trade has not been finalized yet? I mean if its going to get done I would like to have a full team for tomorrow night instead of playing with 8 players and a lineup of td fields williams amare and turiaf with rautins mason and walker on the bench ew lol. Everygame and potential win is important. Also, if it is a done deal it needs to be finalized like now so the Knicks have the opportunity to make another move or two before the deadline if anything is out there..

  63. BigBlueAL

    I love Walsh’s zing at Isiah when asked his thoughts about him:

    “I’m assuming Isiah’s’ getting ready for the NCAA tournament.”

    FIU is in last place in the Sun Belt conference. You go Donnie!! lol

  64. stratomatic

    Here’s a summary of my thoughts:

    1. As a fan I prefer building with young players, draft picks, and selective trades and FAs. I love watching players and teams develop. I get emotionally attached to them as time passes. So seeing Gallo, Chandler, Felton and even Mozgov/Randolph go is very disappointing to me.

    2. I think pairing two high usage scorers like Amare and Melo has some risks because most of their value comes from their scoring. There will almost certainly be some diminishing returns in Points Per 36 . If that doesn’t translate into higher efficiency for them and some of the other players this trade could turn into a very bad move.

    3. I think the GM of Denver should be in the running for executive of the year. He turned a desperate situation into a very good haul that may even make the Nuggets better over the long haul.

    4. The Knicks as currently constructed are woeful defensively, lack a permanent solution at C, will require an eventual replacement for Billups, have no depth/bench, and are unlikely to come up with any very good picks (Fields twice?). With all this money tied up in two scorers, I can’t see how they can address all these needs over the next 2 years and remain under the cap. It seems mathematically impossible to me. That goes double if the new CBA makes things more restrictive.

    5. Even though I think this Knicks team may be a little better now, IMO our trio of Amare/Melo/Billups is vastly inferior to James/Wade/Bosh. It took those guys about 20 games to get it together despite having a pre season and some practice. If the Knicks don’t mesh quickly, it is not totally impossible that we wind up in a dog fight for the 8th seed if one of the teams below us starts playing well.

    6. If the long term goal is winning a championship, I think a lack of cap space is going to make this deal a fail.

    7. I have one deep philosophical question now

    Is it immoral to hope that Isiah and Dolan die?

  65. BigBlueAL

    Mike R: Does anyone know why this trade has not been finalized yet? I mean if its going to get done I would like to have a full team for tomorrow night instead of playing with 8players and a lineup of td fields williams amare and turiaf with rautins mason and walker on the bench ew lol. Everygame and potential win is important.Also, if it is a done deal it needs to be finalized like now so the Knicks have the opportunity to make another move or two before the deadline if anything is out there..  

    Apparently Melo has to sign the extension with Denver before the trade is finalized. Then all the players have to arrive with their new teams and pass their physicals. Walsh said he hopes the players will be able to play tomorrow night. Im sure they will all at the least be at MSG tomorrow night but they not be allowed to dress and play.

  66. Frank

    Seems as if Donnie thinks we will have room for another max after 2012.

    Love him taking the gloves off finally with Isiah. The fact that he would say such things pretty much confirms that Isiah has been a huge pain in his bee-hind for a long time now. And no – it is not immoral to hope Dolan and Isiah die. It’d barely be immoral to make it happen. (I AM JUST KIDDING. PLEASE DON’T SEND POLICE AFTER ME).

    Who am I kidding – no one who reads this board would actually turn me in.

    One saving grace is that both Melo and Billups have played under D’Antoni for a summer, so it is likely they’re familiar with the concepts of his offense. might make the transition less painful.

    The other thing is that although Melo and Amare are both used to being the man, they tend to score in different ways, and neither is expected to be the primary ballhandler – so the role-splitting should be easier than it was with Wade/Lebron. I hope.

  67. Brian Cronin

    Has any one asked Al Harrington if he’s excited to play for the Knicks again?

    “The other Nuggets are pissed because they think that Gallo is being groomed as a star. Not me, though. No, I love him. They just tell me, ‘Al, Gallo’s not as good as you but they talk about him more, doesn’t that seem disrespectful?’ and I tell them, ‘No way, I love that kid.’ So what I’m saying is that other people hate him so very, very much, with his stupid haircut…grr…”

  68. Dan Panorama

    This seems pretty huge factor in evaluating trade. Melo said he would sign extension with Nets if Knicks didn’t go all out with their offer:

    http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/211275/Carmelo_Thought_He_Was_Headed_To_New_Jersey

    He sort of said as much when Alan Hahn asked him a couple of days ago why he didn’t just demand a trade to NYC, full stop. In light of this, I think it’s an exaggeration to say we could have just signed him outright next year or that Denver had zero leverage.

  69. hoolahoop

    According to one report I read Walsh was in Indiana and Dantoni was home in NY. This was a Dolan screwup.
    It’s amazing how all the “expert commentators” loved this deal all along, and the large majority of us here on the forum, don’t like this deal. I kept trying to reconcile this difference of opinion. I’ve come to the conclusion that the “experts” don’t know sh*t about basketball, espeically the Knicks. “oooh, another big star. must be good, there aren’t many big stars”. The knicks had some big weaknesses before this trade. They’ve blown their budget and these weaknesses remain. The elite teams are going to tee off on the knicks, moreso than before.

  70. Robert Silverman

    But what number will Balkman wear? Does he get #32 back? Honestly, I’m probably suffering from Melo-based PTSD, but getting back Renaldo has me irrationally giddy

  71. Owen

    “Aside from stating the obvious – basketball-wise – we now have D’Antoni friends ripping the deal, and yesterday we had Walsh friends washing his hands of the deal. Vecsey is right: how long are those guys sticking around? And who do you think will replace them?”

    I don’t know about you guys, but I am really excited about finally getting my dream GM-Coach combo. Come on down, Isiah Thomas and Mark Jackson

    I agree, the only shred of a decent thing about this trade is that Renaldo Balkman and his Knicks colored car (hopefully) is coming home..

  72. Brian Cronin

    But what number will Balkman wear? Does he get #32 back? Honestly, I’m probably suffering from Melo-based PTSD, but getting back Renaldo has me irrationally giddy

    That still remains one of the most hilarious aspects of this trade. I mean, of course he will just take AR’s spot on the bench, but maybe injuries would force him to play one game!

  73. d-mar

    @96 I was just about to post that link. If true, I think it makes a big difference in evaluating this trade, in that we were not negotiating against ourselves. I do find it hard to believe that if we didn’t throw in Mozgov the Nets would have Melo, but it does seem that they were a realistic threat all along.

    PS Melo will wear #7, which means when we bring Al Buckets back he’s gonna be pissed!

  74. njasdjdh

    Walsh was just on the Michael Kay Show on 1050 ESPN Radio:

    -Didn’t feel this hurt their flexibility from the standpoint that if he were a FA they would sign him to the same type of deal
    -“Truly believed” Melo would sign an extension wherever he was at the trade deadline
    -Staff knows they have holes to fill at C and in terms of depth and before consummating the deal considered possible avenues that may be available to them to do so.
    -Mentioned that he envisions the Knicks having ample cap room in Summer ’12
    -Saw the deal as quoting roughly, “We had the one super player and a good supporting staff and needed another super player. The consideration was should I get the super player now and try and build the support staff again or stick with the support staff and hope to get a super player in the future. I went with the super player.”
    -Tried to evade the Isiah questions and then Kay asked him outright about it. “I don’t really know what Isiah’s involvement with Jim is” “It’s gotten to the point where it’s overblown…I don’t think about it at all” “You guys give a lot of thought to this, but I call it the grassy knoll theory” “I don’t see where this enters into my relationship with this on him at all” “Absolutely, [MD and I] gave thumbs up on this” “When we read that we were thumbs down and Jim was thumbs up, that’s why we issued the release” “I’m not worried about [picking up the option until the date comes]“

  75. StevenU

    The cap implications are not irrelevant-and truly torpedo the teams future, that just yesterday looked pretty bright. With what are we supposedly getting those superstars that are so eager to play with Melo? We no longer have the assets for a sign and trade and nor will we have the cap space-CP3,D/Will, and DHoward are not about to take millions less for the honor and anyone that thinks they will is delusional. And furthermore, Melo is not the type of star that attracts other talent. He does not make other players better. He excels at scoring and literally nothing else. Guys wanna play with players that make the game easier and make them better. Not even his biggest fans have ever accused Melo of either of those things.
    Saying we have a temporary need at Center a monumental understatement. We ALREADY had a need at Center and Timmy was just scratching the surface. Turiaf is fine but for the fact that he is always hurt, and really-who else can play the 5? He can not play more than about 20 minutes a game and even that only until he gets injured again.
    Can you imagine how bad the D will be with STAT at the 5 and Melo at the 4? They will make us long for the days of DLee and Zebo-well-maybe not quite but they actually are no better on D than those 2.
    I love how Damphony is already making behind the scenes excuses-typical.
    Dolan is the sports biggest idiot east of Sterling, and the team, while supposedly “relevant” again-whatever the f that means-is worse right now than they were yesterday (no depth, no starting center, no future) and well on it’s way to being a laughingstock again.
    And people can laugh all they want-Balkman is the best aspect of this trade. He can play the 3, 4 or 5 for, defend, pass, rebound-someone has to do that stuff. But, of course, Dantoni won’t even play him since he isn’t a 3pt shooter.
    This is SO depressing. I was finally enjoying my team-the team I have rooted for through very few ups and a lot of downs for 35 plus years.

  76. BigBlueAL

    CBS Sports reporting Knicks tried to involve the Blazers in the trade to acquire Camby. Too bad that part didnt work out.

  77. KnickfaninNJ

    I agree with everyone who finds the trade depressing. Denver basically got a whole team from NY (except for Fields, the team that beat NJ a week and a half ago) and they still have some good players. NY know has an unfunctional lineup without a center and with (in my opinion) poor prospects for team chemistry. Even if team chemistry might get better, it’s got to take a step backwards. Last year every time the Knicks made a major deal there needed time for integration.

    I don’t even want to watch the next game, and I have been a fan for a long time.

  78. BigBlueAL

    Depressing was watching the Knicks the last 9 years. Depressing was watching the NBA suspend everyone in 1997 and costing the Knicks a shot at the Bulls in the East Finals.

    Depressing is being a Nets fan and buying into the hot air they have gotten from their new billionaire owner.

    Having to watch Amar’e and Melo on the Knicks is far from depressing. Winning 50 games and having a legitimate shot to win a round or 2 in the playoffs next season and beyond is far from depressing.

  79. StevenU

    Big Blue Al: 50 wins? (I hope you didn’t mean this year) Winning rounds of playoffs? Huh? With who playing the middle? Where’s the bench? What teams do you think the Knicks are gonna beat? Miami? No. Boston? No. Orlando? No. Chicago? No. No way.
    How great was it when two superstars teamed up in Denver? Oh yeah, Melo an AI were lousy together. I would love a hit of whatever you’re smoking, it might ease the pain

  80. BigBlueAL

    “Winning 50 games and having a legitimate shot to win a round or 2 in the playoffs next season and beyond is far from depressing.”

    Someone failed reading comprehension.

  81. StevenU

    And there are no points-and no wins-for “trying” (to get Camby)
    What they did accomplish was to gut the roster of most of it’s youth, all of it’s depth, whatever chemistry they were building, and whatever hope existed for level headed fans.
    If anything, your projection of playoff wins was much more likely befoer than after-to win in the pkayoffs requires depth and defense-we were already below average in both areas and we just got worse. A lot worse-in both of them.
    Oh yeah, we had a potential Camby type who was 21 years old and he was a throw in in this deal that had to happen..
    ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
    (Ok, I may no longer qualify as level headed-but I was last week)

  82. John Kenney

    So I’m currently rocking the new look nuggets with my new look Knicks in the franchise mode of 2k11… if that helps. haha

  83. StevenU

    BigBlueAl-no need to get snippy or nasty-my reading comprehension is fine-writing 50 wins at the beginning of your sentence left doubt as to whether the 50 wins was part of your vision of next year and beyond.
    And seriously, which teams do you think the Knicks just passed and could beat next year in the playoffs? And no fair adding imaginary additional superstars that may or may not ever suit up for the Knicks.
    I know you’re a big Yankee fan but in the NBA you can’t just go buy all the best players off the poor teams.

  84. BigBlueAL

    StevenU: BigBlueAl-no need to get snippy or nasty-my reading comprehension is fine-writing 50 wins at the beginning of your sentence left doubt as to whether the 50 wins was part of your vision of next year and beyond.
    And seriously, which teams do you think the Knicks just passed and could beat next year in the playoffs? And no fair adding imaginary additional superstars that may or may not ever suit up for the Knicks.
    I know you’re a big Yankee fan but in the NBA you can’t just go buy all the best players off the poor teams.  

    StevenU: BigBlueAl-no need to get snippy or nasty-my reading comprehension is fine-writing 50 wins at the beginning of your sentence left doubt as to whether the 50 wins was part of your vision of next year and beyond.
    And seriously, which teams do you think the Knicks just passed and could beat next year in the playoffs? And no fair adding imaginary additional superstars that may or may not ever suit up for the Knicks.
    I know you’re a big Yankee fan but in the NBA you can’t just go buy all the best players off the poor teams.  

    No fair adding imaginary additional superstars?? Thats the whole basis of the people against this trade!! They hate the trade because they assume that the Knicks with cap space wouldve gotten a Tyson Chandler or Marc Gasol next season and someone in 2012.

    Im not sure the Knicks now will add a CP3 or Deron Williams but with Amar’e and Melo on board Im assuming they will at the least surround them with decent enough role players in the future to build a 50 win team that will be dangerous come playoff time.

    Thats enough for me because winning an NBA championship is almost impossible, competing for one at least is doable and all we can ask for.

  85. chrisk06811

    can someone explain the Minn piece of this? Why did we give up randolph and curry’s expiring for corey brewer, if we don’t like corey brewer? couldn’t we have just swapped randolph for a 1 somewhere, or held on to him? I’m not sure I understand why this was necessary.

  86. erobes

    @ 116

    We needed to use Eddy’s expiring to make the economics of the deal work, but the Nugs didn’t want to assume that salary and thus pay luxury tax this season. Therefore a third team was needed to take Eddy’s contract. Minny’s incentive in all this was to take a flier on Randolph. We got Brewer because the Wolves needed to include him to make the cap numbers work. I imagine we took him because he can play defense, but more importantly he’s expiring.

  87. John Kenney

    To give Denver cash savings because minnesota could take on curry’s contract as they’re under the cap. Denver is now under the luxury tax.

  88. erobes

    @ StevenU

    The point is not that we’re going to get another superstar in 2012. The point is that by surrounding Melo/Stat with solid role players we can be a 50 win team and compete in the playoffs.

    Put it this way: what if next year rolled around, and we weren’t able to land any of the big free agents? I mean even factoring in the progression of our young core that you seem so attached to, chances are we’d still be an easy one and done in the playoffs. And were would that leave us? With Amare and a group of good role players, but no other bonafide stars (gallo himself said he doesn’t think he’s a star-type player). Today we had a all-star (not superstar) player who wanted to come to NY. Its tough for management to pass up on that.

  89. StevenU

    BigBlueAl: It was most certainly NOT my basis for being against it as I have learned over the years to never count on hypothetical future happenings when evaluating the present.
    I am against it because I like team basketball and I liked the young talent they already had, and because I think they over payed by a LOT. I was and am also against it because I think Melo is an overrated one dimensional player
    The Knicks were already very close to being a 50 win team-very close. It would not be at all outlandish to suggest that without adding anyone they could have achieved the 50 win plateau next year simply based on continued improvement of the teams young core. The core they just traded away.
    Felton, even with his poor shooting-and shooting too much-was playing the best ball of his caeer, Mosgov was finally starting to scratch the surface and play like the player the thought they brought over form Europe, Gallo just started to “get” that he could help the team even when his 3pt shots were not falling, Chandler’s shot selection was far better than in years past…and AR, well-they liked him enough to get him, just not enough to play him-and yes, I know-he played poorly at the beginning of the season, but he was never really given a fair opportunity (imo)

  90. StevenU

    erobes-we already were on track for that! Clearly. And now we have zero flexibility and zero tradeable assets. Just how do you think we add guys now? With what???

  91. KnickfaninNJ

    BigBlueAl,

    I am happy somebody thinks the Knicks are going to be good next year. Maybe we will get lucky and will be good next year. But this has exactly the position we were in for the last nine years except this year, where we had a team that played hard team ball most of the time and was to watch. Maybe next year I might actually want to watch them. From my point of view we traded four young versatile team oriented (OK three versatile and one huge body) players for two good scorers, one of whom is 35. That’s not a recipe for good team basketball and I honestly am not sure we will make the playoffs this year any more. So maybe your happy watching lousy team ball in the hopes that this will make us better next year, but I have done enough of that with the Knicks.

    It’s Denver who might do well this year. They go from horrible chemistry and poor depth to a bunch of very team oriented players all of whom are talented and/or big for their position. After about 10 games they are going to be very tough to beat. Why don’t you look and see what George Karl and Denver fans are saying about this trade.

  92. jaylamerique

    StevenU: BigBlueAl: It was most certainly NOT my basis for being against it as I have learned over the years to never count on hypothetical future happenings when evaluating the present.
    I am against it because I like team basketball and I liked the young talent they already had, and because I think they over payed by a LOT. I was and am also against it because I think Melo is an overrated one dimensional player
    The Knicks were already very close to being a 50 win team-very close. It would not be at all outlandish to suggest that without adding anyone they could have achieved the 50 win plateau next year simply based on continued improvement of the teams young core. The core they just traded away.
    Felton, even with his poor shooting-and shooting too much-was playing the best ball of his caeer, Mosgov was finallystarting to scratch the surface and play like the player the thought they brought over form Europe, Gallo just started to “get” that he could help the team even when his 3pt shots were not falling, Chandler’s shot selection was far better than in years past…and AR, well-they liked him enough to get him, just not enough to play him-and yes, I know-he played poorly at the beginning of the season, but he was never really given a fair opportunity (imo)  

    Really? Really, we were close to winning 50 games. Aside from that 13 – 1 run we’ve been horrible. We are two games over .500 for a reason. How the F, were we winning 50 games next year with the same core. Winning 50 isn’t easy

  93. jaylamerique

    KnickfaninNJ: BigBlueAl,I am happy somebody thinks the Knicks are going to be good next year.Maybe we will get lucky and will be good next year.But this has exactly the position we were in for the last nine years except this year, where we had a team that played hard team ball most of the time and was to watch.Maybe next year I might actually want to watch them. From my point of view we traded four young versatile team oriented (OK three versatile and one huge body) players for two good scorers, one of whom is 35.That’s not a recipe for good team basketball and I honestly am not sure we will make the playoffs this year any more. So maybe your happy watching lousy team ball in the hopes that this will make us better next year, but I have done enough of that with the Knicks.
    It’s Denver who might do well this year. They go from horrible chemistry and poor depth to a bunch of very team oriented players all of whom are talented and/or big for their position.After about 10 games they are going to be very tough to beat. Why don’t you look and see what George Karl and Denver fans are saying about this trade.  

    You guys are so doom and gloom. We might not even make the playoffs.? C’mon now, the knicks have been horrible for a month and a half but yet you thought we’d make the playoffs, we add two players that are better than the ones we replaced and now we wont make it.

  94. jaylamerique

    that whole idea that we lost depth is a bad one. we never had depth to begin with. I’ve been on this board plenty of games were you guys freaked out if MDA took out Stat, Gallo or Felton. the only decent player from the bench we lost was Chandler and that guy is softer than baby food.

  95. erobes

    We have no idea what the cap is going to look like, whether there will anything like the MLE, etc. Whether or not we have enough cap room in 2012 to sign a big free agent, we will have cap room. We have only 3 players under contract after next season.

  96. StevenU

    jayla-generally speaking young players-fields, gallo chandler and mosgov-all 22-24 years old tend to improve with experience-that’s how. That’s the norm not the exception. There is no magic required. Just patience. Which, Dolan has none of. I seriously can not belive how many people think this is good. Honestly. Even if you want to add role players now and not any more stars-how are we gonna pay them? who are we gonna trade for them? REALLY!!!!!??????
    And, winning 50 supposedly is not the goal. I believe we are further from 50, further from any playoff wins and certainly further from competing for a championship than we were yesterday. By a lot.
    yesterday we had youth, chemistry, cap flexibility, and an improving core. Today we have two big scorers and an old PG who is still good but whose days are numbered.

  97. Tufumbo

    It essentially comes down to can a amare and melo led team play enough defense to pass the heat and win an nba title? i remain very skeptical about it. Yea stat and melo should score alot of points and after the roster gets filled out theyll probably win 50+ games for several years. But thats what the nuggets just did for the past several years of melo’s career. The nuggets made it out of the first rd just once with melo.

    Some people seem to fine with that as the future, but personally after the past decade, Im not in this just for 50 win season and playoff flameouts because its better then the past 10 years. titles should be the ultimate goal. I just dont see a team with stat and melo as your two best players (plus taking up a whole lot of cap space) being able to play enough defense to win a title. Yes playoffs will be exciting but with this trade and the coming extension i personally dont see the future ceiling as title-capable. Just how im approaching the trade

  98. erobes

    @ 122

    Where do you get that the Nugs had terrible chemistry? The only reason for that would have been this whole trade saga.

    And frankly, how is Wilson such a good teammate? His game went in the tank after the rumors started. Its a business. He needs to get over himself.

    jaylamerique…thank you. You saved me from having to type all that out. Basically, the high esteem some people have for our current roster is boderline-delusional. I can see arguing against the trade for a number of reasons, but the bottom line is that this year the Knicks are at best an above-average team. No one has playoff success with one star and a bunch of role players, unless that one star is Lebron. Bottom line, this is a star league. And while I totally agree that Melo is overrated, it was a case of having a sure-thing to get a star this year, or potentially never getting another star and being stuck as a doormat in the east. I’m okay with rolling the dice to avoid that.

  99. erobes

    StevenU, I would direct you to my earlier post. The Knicks will have cap room to add role players. I don’t understand how you’re not getting that.

  100. Ben R

    The worst part of this is now there is a clock on our team. Before we had time to be patient, time to let our youth develop, to let Amare dominate for the next couple years and then slowly pass those duties on to Gallo, and Fields and Chandler, like Garnett is doing in Boston and Duncan in SA. We had a team that was only going to improve each year for the next 5 years and then still be good for another 5. And that is assuming we don’t make anything other than small moves.

    Now our most important player, not our best but our most important, is 34. If Billups goes down this team would fall apart and players in their mid thirties are always risks even durable ones like Billups. Now when Amare starts to decline our young core consists of Fields and fringe rotation players. Who replaces Billups in a year and a half, who plays Center in a year and a half.

    We just turned a young time is on our side team into a win now team and barely even got better. You only trade young for old if it puts you over the top, this did not.

  101. erobes

    @ 131

    The problem with the “over the top” argument is that it is so hard to win championships in the NBA. In the last 30 years, 7 franchises have won championships. Doing a trade that puts us in position to be a fringe contender (think Chicago, Orlando or Dallas this season), a team that might need a few breaks to contend but could give an elite team a tough run, well, there are worse things in life.

    Now whether this trade does that or not is a point of contention. But if we get to that point in a year or two, I won’t be depressed.

  102. jaylamerique

    Ben R: The worst part of this is now there is a clock on our team. Before we had time to be patient, time to let our youth develop, to let Amare dominate for the next couple years and then slowly pass those duties on to Gallo, and Fields and Chandler, like Garnett is doing in Boston and Duncan in SA. We had a team that was only going to improve each year for the next 5 years and then still be good for another 5. And that is assuming we don’t make anything other than small moves.Now our most important player, not our best but our most important, is 34. If Billups goes down this team would fall apart and players in their mid thirties are always risks even durable ones like Billups. Now when Amare starts to decline our young core consists of Fields and fringe rotation players. Who replaces Billups in a year and a half, who plays Center in a year and a half.We just turned a young time is on our side team into a win now team and barely even got better. You only trade young for old if it puts you over the top, this did not.  

    things in the NBA change so quickly,just look at Portland, Bulls and the heat. there is no guarantee that that core would’ve been here ten or even years from now. We would’ve had to pay those players and they would not have been on rookie contracts anymore.

  103. jaylamerique

    erobes: @ 122Where do you get that the Nugs had terrible chemistry?The only reason for that would have been this whole trade saga.
    And frankly, how is Wilson such a good teammate?His game went in the tank after the rumors started.Its a business.He needs to get over himself.jaylamerique…thank you.You saved me from having to type all that out.Basically, the high esteem some people have for our current roster is boderline-delusional.I can see arguing against the trade for a number of reasons, but the bottom line is that this year the Knicks are at best an above-average team.No one has playoff success with one star and a bunch of role players, unless that one star is Lebron.Bottom line, this is a star league.And while I totally agree that Melo is overrated, it was a case of having a sure-thing to get a star this year, or potentially never getting another star and being stuck as a doormat in the east.I’m okay with rolling the dice to avoid that.  

    I think our fate would’ve been worse than a doormate had we kept the same roster. We would been fighting the bottom feeders of the east for a playoff spot (6,7,8). We would been to good to ever get an impact draft pick but not good enough to make a run in the playoffs. Atleast with this deal we give ourselves a shot.

  104. KnickfaninNJ

    @129, if you want to know what I mean about Denver team chemistry. It’s the same thing you read. Anthony’s behavior and constant trade rumors made the other Denver players care less. Read Bill Simmons for example.

    I didn’t say Chandler was a great team mate. I don’t know about that. I said he played team ball. And I meant he always tried to play within the coaches system and didn’t try to win the game by himself. the other players traded did that too.

    For those who think that it was unlikely that the Knicks would win 50 games next year, think about the fact that they were two games above 500 after a tough stretch where they played a lot of good teams. If they went one gave over 500 for the rest of the year that would be 44 wins, not so far from 50. I admit they wouldn’t have led the league, but they would have been as good as the Hawks for example.

    The loss that hurts the most is Mozgov. He was learning how not to foul and starting to make an impact. Against LA he was +2 despite foul trouble. Watching the game you see that when he was in the game their bigs couldn’t dominate the way the sometimes do.

    If you want more evidence the Knicks got ripped, go read a Denvdr forum. The fans are very happy and want to keep the players they got.

  105. jkhar

    KnickfaninNJ: @129, if you want to know what I mean about Denver team chemistry.It’s the same thing you read.Anthony’s behavior and constant trade rumors made the other Denver players care less.Read Bill Simmons for example.
    I didn’t say Chandler was a great team mate.I don’t know about that. I said he played team ball.And I meant he always tried to play within the coaches system and didn’t try to win the game by himself.the other players traded did that too.For those who think that it was unlikely that the Knicks would win 50 games next year, think about the fact that they were two games above 500 after a tough stretch where they played a lot of good teams.If they went one gave over 500 for the rest of the year that would be 44 wins, not so far from 50.I admit they wouldn’t have led the league, but they would have been as good as the Hawks for example.The loss that hurts the most is Mozgov.He was learning how not to foul and starting to make an impact. Against LA he was +2 despite foul trouble.Watching the game you see that when he was in the game their bigs couldn’t dominate the way the sometimes do.
    If you want more evidence the Knicks got ripped, go read a Denvdr forum.The fans are very happy and want to keep the players they got.  

    Denver fans are just happy to be done with the melo-drama period. Add that they got bodies in return and don’t have to be Cleveland…its all gravy

  106. JR Sec 112

    I encourage anyone interested to watch the Nuggets press conference on NBA TV right now. Interesting comments on Melo and Chauncey. Both Josh Kroenke and Masai Ujiri strike me as honest, quality, stand-up guys. Would be nice to have an owner and a young GM like that (assuming Donnie wont be around much longer).

  107. New Guy

    I don’t think enough attention is being paid to the fact that Eddy Curry is no longer a Knick.

    Guys, Eddy Curry is gone!

  108. Z-man

    At some point, it just is what it is. I have bled orange and blue for the past 45 years, so time to move forward and root for a win tomorrow night. Orange and Blue, Y’All!

  109. Brian Cronin

    At some point, it just is what it is. I have bled orange and blue for the past 45 years, so time to move forward and root for a win tomorrow night. Orange and Blue, Y’All!

    Yeah, exactly. Like I said last night, we all stuck around through Isiah, we can certainly stick around through this (which is nowhere nearly as bad). I’ll certainly be rooting for Carmelo tomorrow night and for the next X years.

  110. Z-man

    Proof’s in the pudding… honestly, was anyone totally confident in a playoff spot this year, or anything above the 8th spot? Chauncey, Melo and Amar’e are an intriguing ensemble.

  111. KnickfaninNJ

    I didn’t see the press conference from Denver. Is there any news from it. Do they seem happy and likely to keep who they got?

    (by the way, in the Denver Blog’s it’s mentioned that there’s a rumor some team offered minnnesota’s unprotected first round pick for Gallo and there was debate if that was a good offer).

  112. domiknick

    They just showed highlights from the Nuggets/Grizzlies game on Sportscenter. They had a shot of all the former Knicks – they were all at the game in street clothes. They looked pretty somber (granted, it was a quick shot – but they certainly weren’t laughing & smiling in the clip I saw). I must say, FWIW, it’s gonna be pretty strange not seeing Gallo, Chandler, and even Felton in Knicks uniforms anymore. There have been so many players in & out of NY over the past few years, but for some reason there was something different about Gallo & Chandler. They “felt” like ” real Knicks” (as corny as that sounds).

  113. MarcusHatten

    I loved Gallo, Chandler, and Felton. I hope they play well in Denver, or wherever they land. The bottom line though is we were 28 and 26 with those players, and that is better than we have been in a long time, but it’s still 28 and 26. We have a better opportunity to be an elite team now than previously. We are not there now, but with a rebuilt bench, a center, and an elite point guard…

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