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Tuesday, September 23, 2014

Indexed: How Coach D’Antoni Views Offense

[One of my favorite web sites is indexed. The author, Jessica Hagy, conveys ideas using simple mathematical objects like graphs and Venn diagrams. This form of representation is easily understood due to its visual nature. Since imitation is the greatest form of flattery, I've decided to create some images that are appropriate to this blog.]

How Coach D’Antoni Views Offense
How Coach D\'Antoni Views Offense

97 comments on “Indexed: How Coach D’Antoni Views Offense

  1. foliveri

    Great graphic, again. The later you are in the 24, the more settled defenses are and the more forced and rushed your offense becomes.

    Ben Gordon is considering going to play for CSKA Moscow. I realize the dollar has gotten a bit stronger, but I wonder now if some of this “isn’t happening because there is so much more money to be spent in Europe and Russia as opposed to the US right now…???

    Here’s a clip from a story…

    “Still not close to an agreement with the Chicago Bulls, Ben Gordon is reportedly in discussions with Euroleague team CSKA Moscow about a one year contract, Mike McGraw of the Daily Herald is reporting.

    “The Bulls are believed to be offering Gordon a six-year deal worth around $59 million while Gordon wants $12 million per year.

    Gordon has stated in the past that signing the qualifying offer with the Bulls, worth $6.4 million, is not an option. One site reported CSKA’s offer at $5.5 million.”

  2. foliveri

    It also could simply be leverage. I don’t believe Gordon would leave $6.5 million on the table to go to Moscow, so either he is bluffing or the reported offer from Moscow is incorrect…

  3. Owen

    KB – You are good at this….

    Gordon isn’t worth 10 million per. The Bulls will be lucky if they lose him….

  4. James

    KB, nice!

    Warning: this is going to be one of the posts where you want to punch the poster. A bit pedantic.

    I wonder what the shape of the curve is. Linear? Nah – no way is 24 seconds on the shot clock the most efficient – unless you think lobbing full court shots or sending court lenght inbound passes is efficient. I reckon in D’Antonis offense it starts somewhere near zero at 24 seconds to go, rises to maximum in the 20-15 range, and then tails off.

    Also, I reckon there’s be a second peak. After realising with say 18 seconds left that the fast break isn’t on, the D’Antoni teams will run an offensive set. Say that goes for 10 seconds, I reckon there’d be some sort of mini-peak at about the 8 minute mark.

    And hopefully no mini-peak at the 1 second mark for the Crawford off balance miracle jumper…

  5. caleb

    I don’t believe Gordon would leave $6.5 million on the table to go to Moscow, so either he is bluffing or the reported offer from Moscow is incorrect…”

    The Moscow offer would be tax-free, I’m pretty sure, making it worth close to $10 million in U.S. salary.

    Personally I think Gordon is smoking crack if he thinks he’s really worth $10-12 million a year, but I’m sure there are teams out there who would consider it…

    If not, it’s a bad sign for us — if no one is willing to pony up $10 million for Gordon, I’d say it’s safe to say that Crawford is here through 2011.

  6. Caleb

    The diagrams are great.

    This one is dead on as far as D’Antoni’s philosophy — it’s based on quick shots before the defense is set, not on some requirement for outside shooting. It actually relies less on outside shooting because so many of the posessions will be on the fast break.

  7. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    KB, nice!

    Warning: this is going to be one of the posts where you want to punch the poster. A bit pedantic.

    I wonder what the shape of the curve is. Linear? Nah – no way is 24 seconds on the shot clock the most efficient – unless you think lobbing full court shots or sending court lenght inbound passes is efficient. I reckon in D’Antonis offense it starts somewhere near zero at 24 seconds to go, rises to maximum in the 20-15 range, and then tails off.

    Also, I reckon there’s be a second peak. After realising with say 18 seconds left that the fast break isn’t on, the D’Antoni teams will run an offensive set. Say that goes for 10 seconds, I reckon there’d be some sort of mini-peak at about the 8 minute mark.

    And hopefully no mini-peak at the 1 second mark for the Crawford off balance miracle jumper…

    Probably not linear, but lines are much easier to draw than curves. (Although in my own defense there’s a couple with curved lines). Your example is perfect for when you start off in your own backcourt, but what about the possessions where you steal the ball after they’ve made a defensive rebound? Or what about when the defense throws the ball out of bounds and the inbound pass is an alley oop?

  8. Mountain

    It is a generally true that team FG% tends to be best in first 10 seconds of shot clock. So get it early when you can – get a good shot but good early opportunities are not unlimited. A forced marginal early shot isn’t guaranteed a good FG%. And teams that shoot early a lot tend to also give up a lot of early shots in return to the opponent at good FG% offsetting part or all the effect depending on the quality of the transition D. It may be worth noting that Suns % of shots in first 10 seconds (with Shaq) in playoffs fell 5 %pts (or about 12%) from regular season. Te Suns were closer to same % of early shots in prior two playoff – regular season comparisons. So the presence of Shaq in playoffs and / or the opponent cramped that style and not surprisingly for that reason (and money and power struggle) D’Antoni left.

  9. tai

    something about the graph has been bothering me.
    then i realized there isn’t a key.

    maybe the key or axises should be this

    x axis = time
    y axis = +/-

    0,0 = +/1

    cannot be +/0 because the 24 second shot starts at 1

    this would better explain.

    or, i am thinking maybe this should be a bar graph.
    x axis = each second up to 24
    y axis = number of times a team scores within 24 seconds in a 48 minute game (plus overtime when applicable)

    just a thought.

  10. Ess-dog

    This just in:

    Oklahoma City embarrasses everybody by choosing the name “Thunder” for their new team with a logo that appears to be a basketball in a triangle. Colors appear to be red, white and blue. ACDC smiles and rubs their hands together approvingly while awaiting residuals for the use of their 1990 smash hit, ‘Thunderstruck’.

  11. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    something about the graph has been bothering me.
    then i realized there isn’t a key.

    maybe the key or axises should be this

    x axis = time
    y axis = +/-

    0,0 = +/1

    cannot be +/0 because the 24 second shot starts at 1

    this would better explain.

    or, i am thinking maybe this should be a bar graph.
    x axis = each second up to 24
    y axis = number of times a team scores within 24 seconds in a 48 minute game (plus overtime when applicable)

    just a thought.

    The graphs are intentionally vague. I probably broke an indexing rule by inserting a data point with co-ordinates.

  12. mase

    “This is the key as to whether Knicks fans are going to suffer for another 2 years or for as far as the eye can see barring a lucky draft or major free agent signing.”

    can someone translate ?

    “If there’s anything worse than a Rosen column, it’s an offseason Rosen column.”

    Rosen is a good read and if he is saying it there is truth to it. you must have a lot of faith in Duhon!

  13. Italian Stallion

    “This is the key as to whether Knicks fans are going to suffer for another 2 years or for as far as the eye can see barring a lucky draft or major free agent signing.”
    can someone translate ?
    “If there’s anything worse than a Rosen column, it’s an offseason Rosen column.”
    Rosen is a good read and if he is saying it there is truth to it. you must have a lot of faith in Duhon!

    The significant comment was:

    “MIKE D’ANTONI gets to prove that his madcap game plan can succeed without Steve Nash in charge. Not a chance.”

    If “not a chance” is correct, then the Knicks are going to be terrible for a long time unless they get a premier PG in the draft or via the free agent market.

    Essentially, we are all currently hoping that the additions of Gallinari and Duhon plus the development of Chandler will begin the slow process of turning around the team and implementing D’Antoni’s system. The plan then calls for getting rid of a few bad contracts, adding another decent pick next year, and then signing a big free agent name in 2010.

    But if it requires a premier PG of certain style to make this work, we could be disappointed for a lot longer than we think.

  14. Italian Stallion

    More on Randolph to Memphis. Inside Hoops is reporting that the rumors are true, and the deal is basically Zach for Darko and Jaric, with other players potentially in the mix. Jaric’s deal runs for 3 years, but at a more palatable $6.5 per. Darko’s deal runs out in 2 years. Adriana Lima is also a nice throw in.
    http://www.insidehoops.com/randolph-grizzlies-090408.shtml

    I don’t think this is going to make us any better.

    I guess we could use Milicic as the back up Center/Forward and release Jerome James. He would probably get a decent amout of time given that Curry will run out of steam regularly. Jaric could also be an OK backup.

    On a more positive note, it would improve the cap situation. Plus, even if Jaric’s contract runs for 3 years, he’ll be easier to move at a later date than Randolph’s is now.

    I think this is probably the best we are going to be able to do.

  15. TDM

    Per 36 minutes, Darko averaged 2.5 blocks – almost double Curry, Randolph and Lee combined. He has also pulled down over 9 rebounds per 36 which is not great, but solid.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=curryed01&y1=2008&p2=milicda01&y2=2008&p3=randoza01&y3=2008&p4=leeda02&y4=2008

    Darko is no all-star, however, I think he brings something the Knicks are severly lacking. As for Jaric, I agree with IS that he will be more easy to deal than Randolph. He is a servicable guard as well that isn’t solely concerned with scoring.

  16. caleb

    I would be very happy with a Darko/Jaric for Zach trade… no stars, but helps fill a need in the middle and it’s definitely an improvement in cap flexibility. I doubt we do better than that, at least not unless we gamble on keeping Zach another two years.

    But if it requires a premier PG of certain style to make this work, we could be disappointed for a lot longer than we think.

    This and the Rosen column are overcomplicating things. PG isn’t more important than the other spots, but as long as Knicks players are bad (which they are) the team will be bad. Maybe a Venn diagram could explain it better. (x-axis = player ability; y-axis = win total)

  17. foliveri

    What I like about Zach for Darko/Jaric, should it come to pass, is the idea that there are Knicks’ managers that are looking at balancing the team and, perhaps, providing some defense, while improving the team’s cap situation. I think back to the needs the ball/no defense graphic, and can’t wait for more of those players to be traded or dumped…
    But for me, cap improvement is key.

  18. mase

    “This and the Rosen column are overcomplicating things. PG isn’t more important than the other spots, but as long as Knicks players are bad (which they are) the team will be bad. Maybe a Venn diagram could explain it better. (x-axis = player ability; y-axis = win total)”

    Knicks players aren’t bad, there are plenty of talented players. Nash is a great player and very few teams have someone that good. D’antoni has had success thx to him but now what will happen with this style offense without that caliber player, someone who can shoot lights out from the perimeter and push the ball at will?
    answer=not a lot of wins is what Rosen is saying and I may agree.

    also, don’t like the trade with Memphis because we are giving up the best player. I think DW would be wise to wait until the deadline when bubble playoff teams need a Zach and/or Marbury…
    Jaric? come on he sux

  19. Caleb

    Knicks players aren’t bad

    ????? How much more evidence do you need to see?

    re: the alleged trade talks, in the short term (this year and next) that deal would make the Knicks no worse (or barely worse) but in the summer of 2010 it would make them better, because the extra $10 million in cap savings potentially lets them sign someone (or trade for someone) much better than Randolph. I say “potentially” because they still would need to dump Curry and/or Crawford and/or Jeffries, to have meaningful flexibility.

    Even better would be if he walked away, foreswore the money and we didn’t have to take those guys in return, but… that ain’t happening.

  20. Nick

    The only way a bubble team asks for Randolph or Marbury is if their GM is Isiah, hasn’t followed the NBA and specifically the fortunes of teams acquiring and dumping those two or wants the bubble to burst.,

  21. TDM

    I would not hesitate to pull a deal for Darko, Jaric and Lima for Zach. However, one negative aspect of Darko’s game is that he makes Curry look good from the FT line.

  22. Caleb

    I like Charley Rosen, too — what does that make me? :)

    Even if he’s the reverse Garrison Keilor; in his world 99%-plus of NBA players are below average. I like someone better who focuses on players’ weaknesses, even good players.

  23. MASE

    i stand by my comment that we have some good players, they are just overpaid for the most part. our rotation will consist of players who will understand the system.

  24. Italian Stallion

    i stand by my comment that we have some good players, they are just overpaid for the most part. our rotation will consist of players who will understand the system.

    I think we need to define “good”.

    It has been my contention that in order to be a contender to win the whole thing, a team needs 3 all-star caliber players (or close) that compliment each other well. The team must also have a solid supporting cast of role players that fill any needs that the stars do not provide.

    As far as I can tell, the Knicks have zero all-stars. I suppose we can hope that Gallinari and/or Chandler develop a lot, but right now we have none.

    If your definition of good is “solid role players”, then the Knicks have several.

  25. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    Charley Rosen on his best day couldn’t hold a candle to Andy Rooney. Rosen usually has an axe to grind and is about as witty as a goldfish. Although Rooney uses bitches about this or that, it’s usually something that annoys everyone (menus on your doorstep, email spam, advertising) and more often than not he has a point in the end.

  26. Owen

    Witty as a goldfish, I like it….

    A Zach Randolph trade that brings back Adriana Lima would make my summer…..

  27. Italian Stallion

    Here’s my take on one of Rosen’s articles. Needless to say I can’t find the original article anymore. FoxSports must have to thought highly of it to put it in their “recycle bin” archives.
    http://www.knickerblogger.net/index.php/2005/08/13/nominee-worst-nba-article-of-2005/

    That was a great thread. Thanks for posting it. There were a few very insightful posters that turned out to be right about some very interesting things long before they became obvious. (kareem was one)

  28. jon abbey

    ok, when you’re down to arguing Rosen v. Rooney, we really need the season to start.

    that Jamal Crawford blog is kind of awesome. now that we know he reads what people have to say about him, we should start a thread to specifically give him advice. this is the guy who dropped 52 in under 3 quarters against Miami not that long ago, I continue to believe he’s capable of more consistent production, especially in D’Antoni’s system.

  29. Italian Stallion

    <blockquotethat Jamal Crawford blog is kind of awesome. now that we know he reads what people have to say about him, we should start a thread to specifically give him advice. this is the guy who dropped 52 in under 3 quarters against Miami not that long ago, I continue to believe he’s capable of more consistent production, especially in D’Antoni’s system.

    I already sent him a message about his shot selection. All posts are reviewed before he posts them, but he’s posting some very harsh ones. So he’s being cool about it.

  30. mase

    “It has been my contention that in order to be a contender to win the whole thing, a team needs 3 all-star caliber players (or close) that compliment each other well. The team must also have a solid supporting cast of role players that fill any needs that the stars do not provide. ”

    lets not get crazy, i didnt say we were going to contend for a title!
    besides, very few teams have 3 all-stars… lets see who on this roster can learn his system; we may have more talent than people think!

  31. Captain Merlin

    Very few teams are also actual contenders…perhaps as few as the number who have 3 near-allstar caliber players. There’s some monkey business….

  32. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    Since no one else wants to I’ll name names.

    Bad players on the Knicks:
    Collins, Mardy
    Curry, Eddy
    James, Jerome
    Jeffries, Jared
    Jones, Fred
    Randolph, Zach
    Richardson, Quentin
    Rose, Malik

    Considering I didn’t rank younger players that might develop, that doesn’t leave a whole lot of players for the good pile.

  33. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    Kareem’s kinda right on this one:
    “As an aside, I actually think Philly is accidentaly on the right track. Dalembert, Korver, and Iguodola (sp) are all good complementary players who will make excellent pieces to a winning team someday. Put these kind of guys around a Tracy McGrady or Ray Allen in a couple of years and you’re on to something”

    Although it’s not Korver.

    Worst comment by someone named Greebo:
    “Look, I wasn’t expecting the Knicks to go far last year and I’m not expecting the Knicks to go very far this year. Until they get rid of Houston (and that’s next year, kids), THEY WILL BE MEDIOCRE. But Zeke has gotten them younger, drafted exceptionally well, and brought in the components to make their future much brighter. I think Zeke’s the tops. All you haters can step.”

  34. Owen

    I thought Kareem was pretty tough on David Robinson. I think it’s pretty difficult to place him a distant third behind Olajuwon and Ewing…

    The Jamal Crawford blog is awesome, it ups my already strong respect for him as a person.

    I would say to him, “Jamal, look to your shooting statistics. If you want to up your TS%, you need to do a much better job from behind the three point line and increase your ft/fg ratio. Why don’t you focus on shooting say, 38% from deep, while getting to the line 5 times per 36.

  35. Captain Merlin

    Well, quite frankly, I think Q is awful, even when healthy. Terrible shot selection, terrible at actually making the awful shots he takes, not a particularly decent passer, and has not successfully played consistent, passable defense since about his second year at DePaul–and all that is describing his game before he blew out his back and kness and everything else…now he can’t even get in the proper position to do all those horrible things as they ought be done.

    Despite not playing terrific defense and having horrible shot selection, Crawford is probably the team’s 2 way player, because his occasional periods of offensive competence and consistent just-a-touch-better-than-miserable defense do well enough to compensate for his flaws…at least enough to make him this teams best two way player. David Lee is also very much in the thick of the running for that title as well.

    Also, before we all get our panties up in a bunch over who is the best two way player, we should worry more about having a player who can consistently deliver in one direction on the court without hurting the rest of the team.

  36. Captain Merlin
    http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/54290/20080905/deal_with_grizzles_up_to_knicks/

    Does anyone know how much the deferred payments are and whether they count against the cap?
    If the hold up is just about cash, I can’t see this as a major problem when we are talking about the Knicks and this team’s resources. The deal looks reasonable to me and will accomplish several goals.

    We can only hope that Walsh pulls the trigger and Dolan signs the checks. Should this too come to pass as another unmade deal, it will just be too much. He held out on the Clips deal to get something in return, well, here’s Darko–the most one could possibly hope for in return for the mammoth muffin muncher. Ay

  37. cavjam

    Since no one else wants to I’ll name names.
    Bad players on the Knicks:
    Collins, Mardy
    Curry, Eddy
    James, Jerome
    Jeffries, Jared
    Jones, Fred
    Randolph, Zach
    Richardson, Quentin
    Rose, Malik
    Considering I didn’t rank younger players that might develop, that doesn’t leave a whole lot of players for the good pile.

    Collins is only in his third year; I think that qualifies as one of the younger players. I expect (hope) both he and Jeffries will show more scoring efficiency in the D’Antoni system. Each has the speed to run the wing on the break. Each has the size and heart to play good defense. Each can handle the ball yet neither requires it. Every team needs players like these, though I wish FT shooting (abysmal) weren’t such a concern.

    Jones is decent enough. He doesn’t take a lot of bad shots, hits his FTs, can actually jump, and has a fair amount of heart. He’s sorta the anti-Curry.

    I don’t see the D’Antoni style flattering either Curry or Randolph – an unlatched gate on defense, a black hole on offense (ball goes in, doesn’t come out), and apparently poison to the team concept. Still, Curry can score if he gets the ball deep enough and Randolph has some range and works hard for his stats.

    Q ain’t that bad when he’s healthy, he’s one of the few Knicks who can hit the three; it’s just that he seldom is healthy. Malik’s an intelligent player who doesn’t often make mistakes (an asset too often undervalued); it’s just that he’s overdue for a retirement ceremony (gold walker, please). He’d make a good ass’t coach.

    And Jerome James… well, there’s no saving grace here. He proves the old adage – you are what you eat – false. He’s indistinguishable from a vegetable.

    My point is that it’s not fair to call these players “bad,” except for the JJ who’s eligible for his own zoning laws. They all have their value, though there may be some who are poor fits for certain systems, or some *hack*Zach*hack* one would rather not have if one is to play as a team.

  38. TDM

    “Jones is decent enough. He doesn’t take a lot of bad shots, hits his FTs, can actually jump, and has a fair amount of heart. He’s sorta the anti-Curry.”

    Didn’t the Knicks let Fred walk? I know he’s a UFA, and I thought I recalled reading that he was on some other teams summer league squad or got an offer from one of the Euro teams? Something like that.

    That said, KB is right. Fred was another bad player on the Knicks last season, albeit, not the worst.

  39. Ted Nelson

    -I would put Lee ahead of Crawford, and definitely both ahead of Q. If he was healthy his whole career he might have been a better player than Crawford or even Lee (very doubtful) but on his career he juist hasn’t been. I’m hoping Q can get back to his 06-07 form, when he was a solid player for 49 games.
    After the top 2 things get pretty tricky… Nate Robinson, maybe, if he’s guarding the other team’s PG and playing SG on offense… Hopefully Danilo and Duhon add to the “good” pile and Chandler makes the leap over there to join them. I’m also hoping Curry is a good one-way player this coming season, but we’ll see.

    -I’m very impressed with Crawford’s blog.

    -The Knicks certainly have a ton of basketball talent on their team, but unfortunately far less talent than at least half the other NBA teams (without counting, I’d bet it’s a lot more than that). Considering that they play in the NBA, this is a problem.

    -Was pretty interesting to read that old thread. I didn’t think advanced stats were particularly important and was willing to give a new GM 3 years before judging him… I think I’m finally over the Balkman trade, by the way. If I could wait to see how Isiah’s moves played out, I can certainly wait to see how Donnie Walsh’s do.

    -As far as the Randolph deal, I would consider it almost purely a salary dump and evaluate it based on whether the Knicks could potentially get a similar deal without Jaric’s contract… if I were in a position to have any idea.
    For anyone who considers Lee an offensive liability: Darko has scored fewer pts/36 than Lee (11.5 v. 12.7 career and 10.9 v. 13.4 last season) at a truly abysmal TS% (.471 career, ). He’s not a particularly strong defender either, although a couple blocked shots wouldn’t kill the Knicks. Maybe they can flip Darko for a shorter contract, better player, and/or a pick.
    Would love to see Lowry or a future pick thrown in…

  40. Italian Stallion

    I tend to put Lee above Crawford also, but I’ve always felt that Crawford’s weaknesses shouldn’t be all that difficult to correct. The talent is there, he’s not stupid, and he doesn’t seem to have an attitude problem. It’s difficult for me to explain why after so many years it just hasn’t happened. The only explanation (and it’s a partial one at best) that makes sense to me is that the Knicks have been so bad for so long, he has been asked to shoot and score more often than would make sense on other teams. That contribues to the bad decisions and his poor shot selection on offense. I really think this is the last year I’d be willing to give him at least some benefit of the doubt. With the probable offensive contribution of Gallinari and Chandler, a PG like Duhon, and a coach like D’Antoni, if he can’t improve his own shot selection now it’s “him”.

  41. ess-dog

    I agree TN,
    A better deal would be Randolph/Rose for Jaric/Darko/Lowry. That way, Memphis will drop the equivalent of the money the want back from Randolph through dumping Rose at the end of the season.
    I’d love to tack on a swap of our 2nd for their 1st, but I don’t see it happening.
    Then we just have to dump Steph and we’re back to square one!

  42. Z

    “This deal seems to be picking up steam. I think it will go through because it makes sense for both teams, and because (as Capt. Merlin opines) Dolan missed out on the Clip deal so the pressure has probably been ratcheted up.”

    I got burned last month when I thought we’d actually found a taker for Randolph. I can’t let my heart be broken again. Call me when it’s official…

    “if healthy I think Q is our best 2 – way player.”

    That’s like saying “if taller I think Nate is our best defender”.

  43. ess-dog

    Andrew Marchand i saying Donnie Waslh is “cooling” to the idea of the trade, which was proposed by him originally.

    C’mon Donnie! Just frickin’ pull the trigger!
    Just imagine, David Lee… starting every game, running the floor…

  44. Z

    “A better deal would be Randolph/Rose for Jaric/Darko/Lowry. That way, Memphis will drop the equivalent of the money the want back from Randolph through dumping Rose at the end of the season.”

    I’d love that too, but for the Griz it’s essentially trading Lowry for the honor of paying Malik Rose $7 million to ride the bench. Maybe if they threw in Antoine Walker and saved a mil or two, but even still it’s probably not worth it to them.

    …unless the Griz are desperate to make the deal and we are not, but that would really make me question the way the world works! (even more than the idea that Sarah Palin somehow has more governing experience than Joe Biden and Barack Obama combined…)

    The Serbian juggling act of Darko and Marko is a great fucking offer for Zach Randolph.

    Besides, doesn’t Gallinari have a crush on Jaric’s wife?

  45. mase

    “it’s like saying “if taller I think Nate is our best defender”.”

    how is that the same, Q will probably start the season for us?

  46. Z

    “how is that the same, Q will probably start the season for us?”

    Becasue when you have chronic back pain you are never “healthy” by nba basketball standards.

    Starting for the 2009 NY Knicks does not make you healthy. It doesn’t make you good either.

  47. TDM

    “it’s like saying “if taller I think Nate is our best defender”.”
    how is that the same, Q will probably start the season for us?

    Because Q has about as much chance of being healthy and playing like he did in 2006, as N8 does hitting a second puberty and sprouting another 6 inches. The fact that Q may start for the Knicks is not so much a statement of Q’s skills, but the Knicks lack of talent at the 3.

  48. Italian Stallion
    “it’s like saying “if taller I think Nate is our best defender”.”how is that the same, Q will probably start the season for us?

    Because Q has about as much chance of being healthy and playing like he did in 2006, as N8 does hitting a second puberty and sprouting another 6 inches. The fact that Q may start for the Knicks is not so much a statement of Q’s skills, but the Knicks lack of talent at the 3.

    I must be in the minority, but I think there’s a chance we’re going to have a glut at the 3 by year end and Q Rich is going to be the odd man out. I’m bullish on Chandler and think Gallinari is not near ready to play the 4.

  49. Captain Merlin

    IS, I concur. In fact, I don’t see why Q hasn’t yet become the odd man out, with Gallinari and Chandler already being two much more viable options who are more deserving/needing of the minutes.

  50. Z

    “Donnie Walsh initiated the Randolph-to-Memphis talks with the Grizzlies recently and it’s up to Walsh to sign off on the deal. But it appears Walsh has cooled to the idea of trading his player, the executive said.”

    So let me get this straight:

    1) Walsh proposed it.
    2) It’s now up to Walsh to sign off on it.
    3) Walsh may not like it.

    Memphis doesn’t even seem to be a player in the negotiations. It’s Walsh against Walsh.

    Hopefully the smart Walsh gets the better of the horse’s-ass Walsh.

  51. Captain Merlin

    This trade making process scares the living shit out of me…if he won’t sign off on this fanbase revitalizing, zach dumping, space clearing, cap clearing, buffet preserving move of a lifetime, then I am utterly disenchanted with management yet again. And considering it was he who proposed it supposedly…wow…utterly incomprehensible how he could let another gimme go like this. Were he to sign off on this, then it would even bring his reign the added benefit of vindicating his earlier no-go, because at least now they would be receiving darko in return. I am utterly smegged off by this shenaniganery.

  52. Brendan

    I have to cosign all of Merlin’s post. Milicic is worth little, Jaric is worth nothing, but Zbo actually takes stuff off the table in terms of fanbase interest, minutes for more useful players, and the general image of the team. How is this a question?

  53. Italian Stallion

    Maybe Walsh sensed a level of anxiousness and enthusiasm on the part of Memphis and is trying to squeeze a little more out of them. I’m not much of an expert on the cap issues, but I believe that Memphis is so far under the cap that they don’t have to give us back equal contracts. If I am wrong about that please correct me. But if I am correct, maybe Walsh is trying to turn it into a deal where the Knicks only take one player????????

  54. Latke

    I disagree that milicic is useless. He isn’t great, but at 23 there’s still the chance that he figures some things out, and at a minimum he would be hte best shot blocker the knicks have had since marcus camby.

  55. Z

    I imagine Donnie Walsh sitting alone in his office right now with the Randolph trade in his hand awaiting his signature–

    “on the one hand signing this trade would rid me of my most overpaid albatross…

    …on the other hand he is a potential 20-10 guy.

    On the one hand the fans would uncork champaign and toast my health…

    …on the other hand he’s a potential 20-10 guy…

    On the one hand my team’s best player will be able to play starter’s minutes…

    …on the other hand he cost us Channing Frye and I want equal value…

    On the one hand my defense, the worst in the league, will instantly improve…

    …on the other hand I don’t want to make my current Head of International Scouting look bad…

    On the one hand I could clear $10 million in cap space to throw at LeBron James…

    …on the other hand he’s a potential 20-10 guy…”

    JUST SIGN THE GODDAMNED TRADE DONNIE!!!!

  56. Italian Stallion

    Anyone think the Knicks are holding off on announcing this deal until after Patrick Ewing is inducted into the HOF?

    They may not want to take any press away from the big guy out of respect.

  57. Thomas B.

    Respect for Ewing? I doubt it. He was not asked to come back and coach, mentor, ect. That would show much more respect than not making a trade around the HOF inductions. Hell if that was the thinking, why even entertain the trade talks? Why not just wait until the following week. That trade will still be there. I just think Donnie is waiting to see if a better deal comess along. Hey Donnie, this is the best you are going to get. You are lucky that any team isnt laughing you off the phone. So just make the trade, create room for David Lee to do his thing. Save the team some money and give us some hope at a free agent in two years.

    The best way to show respect to Ewing would be to turn this train wreck around and make the Knicks worth talking about again.

  58. Duff Soviet Union

    Congrats to Ewing. Olajuwon, Dantley, Riley, and (ugh) Dick f’ing Vitale in as well. Ewing, Olajuwon and (I guess, even though he’s probably done damage to the NBA than any other individual) Riley are no brainers, but I’m not sure about Dantley. His individual scoring statistics are amazing (Amare Stoudemire-esque actually), but he never seemed to really make his teams better and the Pistons only won titles after getting rid of him. As for Vitale, you’ve got to be joking. This clown is in the Hall??? To heed off an objection to my viewpoint, Vitale does not have great “enthusiasm” for the game. He has enthusiasm for guys who went to Carolina or Duke for 3-4 years. If you’re not a junior or senior, or didn’t go to Carolina or Duke, Vitale pretty much hates you. Remember his ridiculous anti high schooler fear mongering back in the day? And god forbid a foreigner ever get drafted. Let the xenophobic rantings commence. What a disgrace.

  59. Thomas B.

    Duff,

    Thank you. Thank you for not only telling it like it is about Dicky V, but for being among the few people who know the difference between racism and xenophobia. You would be suprised how many people get that wrong.

  60. Captain Merlin

    Given notable others in the hall who played basically the same game as Dantley, but were worse at it, I think he finally got his due. Also, the fact that Dickie V is a bag of douche ought to be common knowledge to all, thanks for summing up why somewhat eloquently and concisely.

    I give the trade until Wed. to go through before declaring it another muffed shot.

  61. Moses

    Do we think that this Randolph-dumping trade is better than the one Donnie passed up a few weeks ago?

    If we do, and if the rumors are both true, we need to acknowledge that Donnie was right to pass up on the first offer.

    We also need to be willing to accept that another, even better, offer for Zach might be coming down the pike.

  62. TDM

    I still think it is possible that Donnie is looking to include Portland in the deal. Portland wants to get Lowry for Travis Outlaw. If the Griz are not interested in Outlaw, perhaps Donnie is trying to work the deal so that the Knicks get something from Portland as well.

    I previously proposed “Lowry and Malik to Portland, Darko and Raef to NY, and Zach to Memphis . . . Portland gets cap relief and a pg of the future, Memphis gets a low post scorer . . . NY gets cap relief and a shot blocker. In 2 years, NY would have both Raef and Darko off the balance sheet.”

    I still think this is possible because the Lowry to Portland rumor has been swirling almost as long as the Zach to Memphis rumor. I have faith that Donnie is going to get the trade done in one form or another. I think anything that gets Zach out will be good in the long run for the Knicks. I don’t even think that Zach is the real problem with the Knicks, but he doesn’t fit, and takes minutes away from Lee. I feel confident that Donnie gets that.

  63. Ted Nelson

    “Do we think that this Randolph-dumping trade is better than the one Donnie passed up a few weeks ago?”

    It depends on whether the Knicks were giving up a 1st rounder in the Clippers trade… If not than this trade is far, far worse.
    Darko IS NOT A GOOD DEFENDER. He blocks a few shots, but it’s doubtful he actually makes them significantly better defensively. On the other side of the ball he hasn’t shown any passing prowess and he’s a terrible scorer: low volume, low efficiency. He’s a decent rebounder.
    The one thing I will say is that it may be largely mental: everyone who saw him play pre-NBA thought he was the 2nd coming and he was actually a passable NBA player for half a season after escaping Detroit for Orlando. At 23 and playing for D’Antoni he actually might get it together and be an NBA player, but is that chance good enough to take on Jaric’s contract? Taking on another guy whose problems are “mental?”
    This trade would only be “addition by sbtraction” in the short-term and still leaves them with a bad long-term contract; if Donnie thinks there’s a trade out there in the next season and a half that makes the Knicks better and/or takes more off the cap then passing up this deal seems logical.

    TDM,

    The way I’ve heard it was more Conley for Outlaw, with Memphis unwilling to make the deal. Since Lowry would be joining Roy, Bayless, Fernandez, Rodriguez, and Blake in the back-court, and moving Outlaw would leave them with only sharp-shooter Martell Webster, and completely unprovens Batum and Luke Jackson on the wing, I don’t think Portland would do Outlaw-Lowry, the big advantage of Conley would be his relationship with Oden (and his potentially higher ceiling).

  64. mase

    why do this trade for darko and marko?
    … we dont have to make a move now, we are not contending this season!If we play him off the bench 20-25 mins., we will have better trade options down the line. Zach will be a valuable chip to teams on the playoff bubble near the deadline.

    donnie dont do it!

  65. Captain Merlin

    Mase, you frustrate me….deeply. Dealing Randolph NOW for the piss that is Darko and Jaric would do much more good for the team and the fanbase than waiting 5 months, watching him show everyone just why we’re so desperate to be rid of him, and getting no better deal in return. At least by dealing him now, the fans will be able to let out a collective sigh of relief and feel that at least something’s headed in the right direction. Also, dumping Zbo would finally let us see how well David Lee can handle being a starter over more than just a few games. Let’s understand this–should zach play well over a half season (relative to how he usually plays) it will still not likely be able to net anything better than what the trade returns–at least nothing worth that wait and the consequences of keeping him on the team for an extended period of time. Both the morale of the team and the fanbase would be dead, and all would have turned their backs against Walsh and the management, leaving any trade that would be made then to be fruitless and just a minor footnote to the misery.

    Pull the trigger, damn it.

  66. Captain Merlin

    Also, does anyone else see the potential comedy value of having two eastern european players on the roster–or even the court– at the same time? It could be its own late 70′s sitcom in itself.

  67. Captain Merlin

    Also, does anyone else see the potential comedy value of having two eastern european players on the roster–or even the court– at the same time? It could be its own late 70’s sitcom in itself.

    I meant to say :

    Also, does anyone else see the potential comedy value of having two eastern european players with rhyming names on the roster–or even the court–at the same time? It could be its own late 70’s sitcom in itself.

  68. TDM

    Ted:

    I think there have been discussions of Outlaw for Conley AND Outlaw for Lowry. I don’t see the Griz giving up Conley for Outlaw, however.

  69. Duff Soviet Union

    I agree with Ted. Darko really sucks. Some people around here say that having Lee on the court is “like playing 4 on 5 on offense” (which is complete crap). Darko? With him it really is like playing 4 on 5 on offense. I could probably count the number of worse offensive players who get any minutes at all on one hand. Jason Collins, Desagana Diop (great contract there Dallas), um….

  70. Ted Nelson

    TDM,

    I didn’t express myself well at all, but basically I don’t think Memphis does the Conley deal and I don’t think Portland does the Lowry deal. With Bayless having torn up the summer league (whatever that’s worth) and Fernandez playing well last season and in the Olympics, I don’t think Portland gives up one of their two SFs for a decent guard. Maybe if Batum is suprisingly ready for the NBA and Bayless and Fernandez struggle they’d be interested mid-season.

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