Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Sunday, December 21, 2014

I Am James L. Dolan

So if you’re here reading this, most likely you’ve woken up today a Knicks fan, just like every other day since the first day you decided to become a Knicks fan. Maybe your fandom passed down from a generation or two. Or maybe one night you fell in love with the boys in orange & blue.

It could have been in the 60s with Willis or the 70s due to Clyde. Maybe the draft of Ewing spurred your interest, or the battles against Jordan, Hakeem, or Alonzo in the 90s. Perhaps even some here came to the Knicks through more contemporary players like Stephon Marbury or Jamal Crawford or David Lee or Carmelo Anthony.

Chances are if you are reading this blog on this site, the day Jeremy Lin became a Houston Rocket, you are a Knicks fan. And by supporting the New York Knicks with your money, with your cheers, and with your heart you are supporting whoever wears that uniform. You support the coaches and the general manager. You are supporting whoever owns stock in the team. You are supporting the owner James L. Dolan.

You may have not been in favor of the Knicks jettisoning Jeremy Lin. You may not have been in favor of acquiring Carmelo Anthony. You may not have wanted to lock into Eddy Curry for 6 years or wanted to trade away all financial flexibility for Stephon Marbury. You most likely definitely did not want the Knicks to sexual harass Anucha Browne Sanders, or try to fight her in court so that the organization’s dirty laundry could be aired publicly. You may not have wanted the Knicks to trade a ready-to-retire Patrick Ewing for Glen Rice and Luc Longley, or to send Mark Jackson for He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named.

But by being a Knick fan today, you stand by that. You stand by all of that. The history, good, bad, or indifferent is now yours by proxy. Because you’re a grown-up, or at worst old enough to know better. You could tomorrow take your New York Knick jerseys, shirts, hats, posters and bobbleheads and put them up on ebay. It’s that easy to quit. You’d not only unload your tchotchkes and your heartache, but you’d probably make some money on the deal. It’s a win-win deal, and would probably be the most sensible thing done in the history of sports.

Additionally, by throwing away your allegiance to the Knicks, you’d be sending the only real message you can to Mr. Dolan & co. To paraphrase Game of Thrones, power is only an illusion. James Dolan can do whatever he wants with his team, because of the money that everyone consciously gives him to do so. If enough people didn’t give him their money willingly, it would stop. And that’s the only power us regular people have. Petitions? Booing? Mocking him on the web? Worthless.

Ever see a kid throw a tantrum with their dad? They can wail away all they want, cry, scream, kick, and really there is nothing they can do to affect the adult. But if that kid hits pops in the crotch with enough force, the old man is going down for a second. Similarly, the only way to get James Dolan to stop is to hit him in the wallet. Hard.

If public embarrassment of switching teams to your Knick friends is holding you back, this season gives you an excellent opportunity. The Brooklyn Nets are new. They’re hip. They’re now legitimately part of New York. You wouldn’t be abandoning your city. You’d be a pioneer. Hip. Fresh. Dope. Whatever expression the kids are using today.

Sacred that your Knick buddies will give you hell? Well the next time the Knicks do something jaw-droppingly stupid, and as a Knicks fan the knot in your stomach is telling you that moment is just around the corner, you’ll be able to give back to them in spades. You’ll win here too. And maybe by being the first to go to the Nets, you’ll be able convert them, which again will chip away at Dolan’s wallet. More winning.

But most likely if you’re read this far, you’re sticking with the Knicks. And by doing so, the thing you may not realize is that you’re the same as them. These years of not being able to win a championship in the biggest market isn’t just misfortune or dumb luck. It’s plain dumb. As long as they have the same owner, they’ll have the same people who make the same mistakes. They won’t change who they are, which is why they make these same mistakes over and over again. They are unwilling to look themselves in the mirror and correct their flaws. And today so are you.

Logically there is no reason to be a Knicks fan, and yet you, we, persist. By acknowledging we are Knicks fans we publicly support the moves of the organization. By watching MSG or buying Knicks gear we give our monetary support to the team. And by staying Knicks fans we share the same stubborn traits that continues to make this team doomed to failure. So as Knicks fans we not only agree with James L. Dolan, but in some deeper way, we become him.

179 comments on “I Am James L. Dolan

  1. Gideon Zaga

    Heh this is funny. I’ll bookmark this and refer you back to this during the season. Or maybe you’ll be a Nets fan by then. Good day then citizen.

  2. dsi

    Agree with the sentiment…but “I Am James L. Dolan”?

    That’s a really bizarre, melodramatic thing to say. Unless you’re wearing a Darth Vader mask, breath heavy, and use your best James Earl Jones voice to turn it into “Luke, I am James L. Dolan.”

    By the way… Jeremy Who? Landry Who? Go Knicks.

  3. Sebas94

    There is no way I’m going to leave the Knicks. All my teams were passed down from my Dad, Knicks, Rangers, Giants, Yankees. I have put up with a James Dolan team with the Rangers. Thay managed to emerge from that hideous shadow. So, I shall keep faith. Let’s go Bockers.

  4. jon abbey

    “By acknowledging we are Knick fans we publicly support the moves of the organization. By watching MSG or buying Knicks gear we give our monetary support to the team. ”

    the first two of these statements aren’t true, MSG isn’t a standalone channel, it’s part of basic cable and no one knows whether I’m watching that or The Nashville Network.

    absolutely agreed on Knicks gear, and more importantly, on Knicks tickets. I’ve been urging boycotts of Dolan for years.

    still only 59 ‘likes’ on Occupy MSG, clearly people don’t mind Dolan too much:

    https://www.facebook.com/OccupyMSG

  5. TyNittyOP

    Yeah. Go with the Nets. You’re gonna love JOE JOHNSON!!!!

    The thing about being a REAL FAN, is that you understand that the sour makes the sweet that much better. It’s easy to be a Yankees fan, a Cowboys fan, a Duke/ UNC fan, an LSU fan. The wagon has way more seats, and it’s always the popular decision. But for REAL FANS like Browns fans, Bills fans, Knicks fans, Jets fans, Chiefs fans…you stay because it’s hard. You stay because you have to fight to stay. And you stay because, if by the grace of God Almighty, your LA Kings, your St Louis Rams, your New Orleans Saints DO WIN….you can say that you EARNED THE RIGHT TO BE A PART OF IT.

  6. johnlocke

    Thanks James. You are a great business owner, because only someone like you makes a significant change to your product while communicating to your customers…”We will not match Jeremy Lin”. Thanks for your in-depth insights and for acknowledging us, by helping us to understand the logic of your organization. As a customer, who once bought thousands of dollars of tickets to entertain clients at your games, it’s nice to know that you care about me. Have a nice day…MORON.

  7. jon abbey

    also, I disagree with pretty much this whole piece. there are a thousand gradations of being a fan, and mine involves not giving Dolan my money ever. on the very rare occasions I go to Knicks games, the tickets are freebies and would just go to someone else for free if I didn’t go.

  8. ess-dog

    I was doing ok until I watched the Lin highlights on espn this morning. It put a knot in my stomach.

    Winning is one thing, but winning with character is something else. There’s a handful of guys still worth rooting for on this team: Chandler, Shump (injured), and Novak, but that’s not enough to keep me around.

    The rot starts at the head and this is Dolan’s doing. I stopped giving him my money years ago, but now I want to actively give my money to the Nets… I hate him that much.

    So long, you rich, flabby douchebag.

  9. jon abbey

    TyNittyOP:
    Yeah.Go with the Nets.You’re gonna love JOE JOHNSON!!!!

    The thing about being a REAL FAN, is that you understand that the sour makes the sweet that much better.It’s easy to be a Yankees fan, a Cowboys fan, a Duke/ UNC fan, an LSU fan.The wagon has way more seats, and it’s always the popular decision.But for REAL FANS like Browns fans, Bills fans, Knicks fans, Jets fans, Chiefs fans…you stay because it’s hard.You stay because you have to fight to stay.And you stay because, if by the grace of God Almighty, your LA Kings, your St Louis Rams, your New Orleans Saints DO WIN….you can say that you EARNED THE RIGHT TO BE A PART OF IT.

    ugh, the concept of a REAL FAN is so idiotic to me. it’s just entertainment, do whatever you want.

  10. jaredrutledge

    dsi:

    By the way…Jeremy Who?Landry Who?Go Knicks.

    i think people who write things like this are the type of people who like to wear knicks jerseys and get drunk at bars because it’s a good time, not because they’re actual knicks fans.
    they’re the type of people unlikely to know anything about the new CBA, MSG’s stock situation, or even basic basketball principles and advanced metrics.
    they’re the people who swallow whatever load the media feeds them without hesitation in politics and sports.
    they’re the type of people who Mike is talking about in this article.
    they’re the type of people who enable Dolan (and to a greater effect, our presidents, congress, wall street bankers, etc.) to get away with the things they do.
    they are, in their own way, unamerican – refusing to think for themselves, slavishly following the crowd, unaware of their own emotions or thoughts.
    they’re the reason we, as a country, are in the mess we’re in. as a microcosm of that, they’re the reason the knicks are such a mess.

    i’m torn on whether to wait and see how the first few games play out, or start rooting for MKG and the bobcats (i’m from NC) right now. get in on the ground floor of something good, instead of this God forsaken mess. 15 years down the drain, since i was 13 goddamn years old. if you’d told me a week ago i’d be having to make this decision, i’d have laughed at you.

  11. TyNittyOP

    Sebas94: There is no way I’m going to leave the Knicks. All my teams were passed down from my Dad, Knicks, Rangers, Giants, Yankees. I have put up with a James Dolan team with the Rangers. Thay managed to emerge from that hideous shadow. So, I shall keep faith. Let’s go Bockers.

    True fan, salute.

  12. TyNittyOP

    jon abbey: ugh, the concept of a REAL FAN is so idiotic to me. it’s just entertainment, do whatever you want.

    You have the right to your own opinion. At least you yourself are honest.

  13. jon abbey

    TyNittyOP: You have the right to your own opinion.At least you yourself are honest.

    the only people who are really part of a championship are the players on the roster at the time and the actual organization. everyone else is just along for the ride to different degrees, whether they showed up two weeks earlier or forty years earlier.

  14. jaredrutledge

    @TyNittyOP: did you just quote me twice and lose your whole post in the process? smooth.

    @jon abbey: i agree. i think we put a lot of stock into things like this that are, at their most basic, meant to be entertainment. follow and root for whoever you want. a bunch of fake internet peer pressure shouldn’t matter.

  15. New Guy

    I’ve been on vacation for a week. Did I miss anything?

    Oddly, while on vacation (in Charleston, SC) I sat at a table next to Raymond Felton. This was Friday. Our girls started talking, we did, too. Nice guy. Looks like a bouncer. When news broke that night that we had traded for him, I told my GF the Knicks just got that big guy we were talking to at lunch. She was completely incredulous when she replied, “to play BASKETBALL?”

    Anyone who tells you Ray is in decent shape this summer is lying.

  16. New Guy

    The sad part about this:

    “or to send Mark Jackson for He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named.”

    is I don’t know if you mean Charles Smith or Antonio McDyess.

  17. Count de Pennies

    Spot on, Mike.

    Whatever anger I’m feeling today (and as I’ve said, it’s not much relative to Knick blunders of the past) has nothing to do with my feelings about Lin as a player (meh, IMO)

    No my ire is rooted in the near-certain knowledge that even if this decision proves to be the correct one, it was made for absolutely the wrong reasons.

    This move – just like every crappy move made by the Knicks since 1999 – has Dolan’s chubby fingerprints all over it. Yep, the same James Dolan who long ago blew past Donald Sterling in the race for the NBA’s Worst Owner and is now vying for the crown of Worst Owner in All Professional Sports.

    It’s not just his stupidity that makes Dolan so bad. There are plenty of stupid owners who consistently make lousy decisions. What makes Dolan unique is the willfulness that often seems to drive his choices. My read on the man is that assembling a winning basketball team is far less important to him than demonstrating to the world that he’s the man in charge; the ultimate “decider,” to borrow the parlance of W. Bush.

    What better way to demonstrate one’s power than by making decisions that not only fly in the face of logic but also defy the wishes of the majority of fans. Fans are chanting “Fire Isiah!” at every home game? Fuck ‘em. Fans prefer a measured approach to assembling a roster and are against giving up the farm for a Melo? Fuck ‘em. Y’all prefer that we try and keep Lin? Well, y’all can go fuck yourselves on that one, too. My team; my rules.

    Abbey is correct; this team will NEVER win a championship as long as Dolan is in charge. But I’m not going anywhere. I suppose I’ll just have to content myself with whatever cachet rooting for a team with the worst owner in professional sports brings me. Hey, any ninny can be a Lakers fan. To be a Knicks fan requires a greater faith and a deeper level of understanding. As Buddha said, “Life is suffering.” Who knew Buddha was a Knicks fan?

  18. Gideon Zaga

    Hehehehehe this should be the best post ever. I bet you had that feeling, when you hear so and so died and you’re like: Oh my God, I was just talking to him last week. I guess it’s really that bad huh

    New Guy:
    I’ve been on vacation for a week.Did I miss anything?

    Oddly, while on vacation (in Charleston, SC) I sat at a table next to Raymond Felton.This was Friday.Our girls started talking, we did, too.Nice guy.Looks like a bouncer.When news broke that night that we had traded for him, I told my GF the Knicks just got that big guy we were talking to at lunch.She was completely incredulous when she replied, “to play BASKETBALL?”

    Anyone who tells you Ray is in decent shape this summer is lying.

  19. Thomas B.

    I just do not understand why not matching is such a “jaw droppingly stupid” move. You guys really think we just let a 2 time MVP walk out the door for nothing? I don’t think so.

    I find it telling that so few players came out to lobby for bringing him back. I think they all saw something in practice from day-to-day that helped them know what is really there.

    Lin is a nice player but I do not think he is the guy to push this team over the top. He struggled mightily against the top teams in the East, I think had he played in the Miami series he would have been eaten alive just as he was in the other games against Miami.

    Not only would the shine be off the apple, but there would be a huge bite taken out of it in the shape of Wade’s mouth. You never got the chance to see just how bad Lin might have struggled in a playoff setting. Absent that, you just image that he would have put up a boxscore like he did against the Lakers. Or maybe drain a game winner like he did against the Raptors. That would have been nice right?

    But what if he puts up a four stinkers like he did against Boston? What if he can’t keep Holliday or Williams in front of him. Then what?

    The fact is that we don’t know what we had in Lin. Is a top 20 player, is he a flash in the pan? We still don’t know. All we have is 35 games. Maybe 18 of the solid games. 5 of them great. 5 great games over two seasons isn’t enough to get upset over.

    I’m not going to lament the loss of a shadow, a sliver, a glimpse of something. It was a nice little story when there was nothing else to feel good about. I value Lin for that. But it is over now and it is time to move on.

    The team is on the right track. They are better than they were ten years ago. I think they will continue to improve. There will be stumbles along the way. Tough choices to make. Disappointments to be sure.

    This won’t break us. We are Knick fans. We shall overcome.

    Someday.

  20. jaredrutledge

    I might just be zen about this. watch a bunch of games (knicks and other teams) and let it come to me. if it seems like i’m still a knicks fan, so be it. if the bobcats tug at my heart strings, then so be it. if it’s the rockets, blazers, etc., so be it. maybe we should all do that. if the knicks can’t hold my loyalty anymore, then they don’t deserve to.

  21. jaredrutledge

    dsi: “Oh, yea, you’re right, I probably really didn’t have enough information to offend you.”

    i must have been spot-on, because i offended you.

    this is getting off topic, so i’m going to try to steer it back on topic:

    over under for Lin’s PER next season? what about Felton? i’d say 20 and 12.5, respectively. any takers?

  22. dsi

    @Thomas B.

    …hey, I never claimed I was anger-free.

    …and I don’t care what the venue is…that crap from the Redneck didn’t belong on this thread. It was way out of line and deserved a response.

  23. Thomas B.

    dsi:
    @Thomas B.

    …hey, I never claimed I was anger-free.

    …and I don’t care what the venue is…that crap from the Redneck didn’t belong on this thread.It was way out of line and deserved a response.

    Fair enough. But your response was a bit over the top for a blog post from a stranger don’t you think? Gun in the mouth? Yikes.

  24. dsi

    jaredrutledge: i must have been spot-on, because i offended you.

    No, Redneck, you were dead wrong. And, if you actually knew anything about me, you’d be ashamed of yourself for implying that I, somehow, was typical of the attitude that’s hurting this country.

    Amazing that you’re unable to admit you were out of line. Like I said, you’re a self-righteous piece of garbage who doesn’t know what he doesn’t know.

  25. Grymm

    I agree with Thomas. Really, what did we have in Lin? What if he was just a smart pair of fresh legs getting to run a point guard dominated system on a team who at the time had no one who could create a shot in the middle of an incredibly compact system where a large chunk of the players seemed out of shape or breaking down? If you break out his 8-1 opening run, he shot 40% (52% TS) from the field, 31% from 3, with 15 pts, and a 1.8 Ast/TO ratio. Why is he weak to his left? Will that persist or did he just never have to work on it before? He takes a lot of contact – can he stay healthy?

    I’m not keen on the number of columns out there vilifying Lin like he somehow gamed the system. The goal of every agent in every business is to get their client the most money possible. Also, if Lin had come back for the playoffs at less than 100% and been dominated by the Heat (either because he’s not that good or because his injury limits him), how many millions would that cost him?

    I like Lin. I like how he plays, and I enjoy watching him. I also like Rony Turiaf, but I’m not thinking the Knicks should give him 25M/3. I think there was enough input from the basketball people on this decision that I’m ok with it. I don’t think Mike Woodson wanted him as his PG and only declared him the starter to make sure that anyone who took him paid full price. Also, with Houston being a worse team, I think this is better for Lin as well.

  26. Frank

    I’ve spent way too much time thinking about this now, and this is what I’ve come to (sorry if I’m repeating what may have been written in other posts – I can’t bring myself to read all of them today):

    1) The decision to dump him was probably 80% personal, 20% basketball/financial. That it was 80% personal is obviously dumb and can be blamed on Dolan.

    2) Reading Hollinger’s article on it actually made me feel a little bit less angry about it from a financial standpoint-
    – Truth is- even though I was killing them for not at least getting a S&T, there probably wasn’t a real chance they could have gotten anything. The most Lin could have gotten in a S&T is 4 years 24 million without a poison pill – and at that price, we would have kept him. He has to agree to a S&T, and I can’t imagine that he would agree to be signed and traded (since by all accounts he wanted to stay), and also to take a contract that was lesser than the one he got/was promised as a RFA. So the S&T was probably an illusion.

    – “Trade for expirings in 2014-15″ – as Hollinger said, it’s difficult to imagine that we could have gotten out from under the tax in 14-15 with a trade, since you generally have to take guys with guaranteed $ back unless they have either huge cap space (max player-type, and they’d probably just take the max player then) or a huge trade exception (unlikely considering how big the # is). If he’s worth the big cap space, then he’s a max player and you would keep him. But if you don’t think he’ll ever deserve that $15MM contract and will never be a max player, then it’s unlikely that he will ever be traded for something that won’t ALSO cost you $44MM in tax. (maybe 25% less by trade rules).

    – Stretch provision – again – if you don’t think he’s very good, then you’d be paying $25MM salary for 2 years + whatever tax is due – probably at least $10MM in each of the next 3 seasons = $55MM for 2 years of work, PLUS the cap space in the 3 stretch years…

  27. Marc R

    At least for this season, it’s not so easy to register anger at Dolan financially.

    I called MSG this morning to cancel my season tickets and they said that’s not permitted once I agreed to reup several months ago. He already has my money for this year. It will have to wait until next year.

    Also, it’s really not so easy to shift to the Nets. Yes, they’re new to Brooklyn, but they’re not a new team. It would still involve rooting for the Nets (and Brook Lopez).

  28. critgeog

    I really don’t think the doom and despair is so much about people thinking Lin is going to be a perennial all-star, or the particulars of his PER. It’s more about the Knick’s continued reliance on what is clearly just a failed approach to building a team and winning a championship. The perpetual cycle of dumping youth and draft picks in pursuit of veteran’s clearly on the downside of their career and the complete disregard for character in personnel decisions, simply doesn’t work. No amount of evidence will dissuade Dolan from repeating these mistakes over and over again. That and the sense that this decision just reeked of Dolan’s ego and vindictive streak are just too much to take. I really wish I could jump ship and be a Net fan but I don’t have the sack.

  29. Frank

    continued…

    So at the end of the day, it’s possible that Grunwald/Woodson et al. just didn’t believe that Lin would be good enough. That’s a basketball call that I don’t agree with, but it’s not totally ridiculous. The Post article said they did have trade discussions with teams for a trade this year or next, but that no one would commit to anything.

    I totally agree with this very reasonable take from Rosenberg at SI: “As a writer and basketball fan, I think I do believe in him. But I don’t have to sign the check, and Jeremy from Harvard is not my employee.”

    I don’t know – I’m sick with this whole thing, mostly because I loved the IDEA of Jeremy Lin, his story, and his potential. There is no one on this team anymore that you don’t already know the ceiling for, except for Shump, and for all we know he may never even be what he was last year after that knee injury.

    And sorry Mike – I’ve thought a ton about this, and even though I don’t feel like a Knick fan today, I’m pretty sure I will be when the season rolls around. NYK is stamped into me pretty deeply, and I can’t imagine giving it up. But I’m pretty sure there is a new red western conference team that will be team 1B for me now. Will be interesting to see how I feel when they play each other during the year. I have a feeling that J-Lin will get a huge and prolonged standing O from the crowd when he comes back to the Garden, and a whole lot of “Fu-uck Dolan, clap clap clap clap clap” to follow.

  30. Count Zero

    Thomas B.:
    I just do not understand why not matching is such a “jaw droppingly stupid” move.You guys really think we just let a 2 time MVP walk out the door for nothing?I don’t think so.

    I’m right there with you. In the end, the sample size is too small to objectively evaluate Lin as a starting PG, so it’s a subjective exercise by nature. His game has glaring weaknesses. He may overcome these and prove he is worth 3x$8MM (maybe more!)…or he may not. (Not many PGs learn to go with the other hand at age 23 — this is something you start working on at age 11.)

    In the end, Lin is a gamble. The nature of the rules made it less of a gamble for Houston due to the AAV, whereas the Knicks had a bigger gamble. I get the argument that there were numerous ways to avoid that third season luxury tax hit — but there are also scenarios in which it would become very difficult to do so without paying another price. Personally, I would have taken the risk — but I have no real downside except as a fan.

    We may end up regretting this stupendously. Or…a year from now, Lin might be riding the pine somewhere and people will be laughing at Houston and saying, “I told you so.” That’s the nature of the business and risk. There’s certainly no advanced statistical evidence that Jeremy Lin will most likely play up to a $25MM investment. On the contrary — there is a dearth of it and a lot of danger signals including his knee.

  31. jon abbey

    Marc R:
    At least for this season, it’s not so easy to register anger at Dolan financially.

    I called MSG this morning to cancel my season tickets and they said that’s not permitted once I agreed to reup several months ago.He already has my money for this year.It will have to wait until next year.

    yep, this is what they said on ESPN last night, one reason Dolan did this. the real question is why you were supporting Dolan before this move, but if this was the tipping point you needed, don’t forget when it comes time to renew again.

  32. TyNittyOP

    jon abbey: the only people who are really part of a championship are the players on the roster at the time and the actual organization. everyone else is just along for the ride to different degrees, whether they showed up two weeks earlier or forty years earlier.

    I can see how you have that opion. But I also remeber when Larry Johnson made the 4 point play, and how great I personally felt. That was a great moment for me, and, right or wrong, I think every real fan of a sports organization has a moment like that.

  33. TyNittyOP

    critgeog: I really don’t think the doom and despair is so much about people thinking Lin is going to be a perennial all-star, or the particulars of his PER. It’s more about the Knick’s continued reliance on what is clearly just a failed approach to building a team and winning a championship. The perpetual cycle of dumping youth and draft picks in pursuit of veteran’s clearly on the downside of their career and the complete disregard for character in personnel decisions, simply doesn’t work. No amount of evidence will dissuade Dolan from repeating these mistakes over and over again. That and the sense that this decision just reeked of Dolan’s ego and vindictive streak are just too much to take. I really wish I could jump ship and be a Net fan but I don’t have the sack.

    I feel what your saying, but if you really think that the key to winning a championship in NY hinged on Jeremy Lin, I personally think you would be incorrect. NO TEAM WE PUT TOGETHER was gonna be able to stop the Heat or the Thunder THIS YEAR. All this decision did was secure the ability to make different decisions in the years to come.

  34. jon abbey

    TyNittyOP: I can see how you have that opion.But I also remeber when Larry Johnson made the 4 point play, and how great I personally felt.That was a great moment for me, and, right or wrong, I think every real fan of a sports organization has a moment like that.

    sure, me too. but in reality, it has nothing to do with your life, anymore than a great or shitty episode of Breaking Bad reflects on you. you didn’t play the game, you didn’t make the show, you can choose what team to root for or which shows to watch, but when they end, you’re back in your own life (this is what LeBron said in a slightly more obnoxious way at the end of his first season in Miami, but he’s right).

  35. TyNittyOP

    jaredrutledge: @TyNittyOP: did you just quote me twice and lose your whole post in the process? smooth.@jon abbey: i agree. i think we put a lot of stock into things like this that are, at their most basic, meant to be entertainment. follow and root for whoever you want. a bunch of fake internet peer pressure shouldn’t matter.

    I did, sir. This whole internet blog thing is very new to me. At the end of the day, my argument was simply this: losing Jeremy Lin WILL NEVER BE REMEMBERED as the worst thing Dolan has done as owner of the Knicks. As a fan, I’m not blindly following anything; I’m hoping that all the years that I put into loving this organization will pay off in at least a 2nd rd playoff defeat before I die.

  36. jon abbey

    so, no, none of us is James Dolan or anywhere close.

    some of us (not all of us) have chosen to support him financially over the years, and that needs to change, just as it’s needed to change for years now.

  37. jon abbey

    TyNittyOP: I’m hoping that all the years that I put into loving this organization will pay off in at least a 2nd rd playoff defeat before I die.

    so “all the years” doesn’t go back to 2000?

  38. SimbaPuppy

    I don’t understand the financial arguments against signing Lin. I’m hoping smarter people than me on here can answer this:

    Would signing Lin actually impact the team’s financial status in terms of assembling the best team possible over the next three years? Does it really matter how much he costs in a vacuum if the team is equally hamstrung financially with or without him? It’s equivalent as arguing that there’s no such thing as a bad contract for the Yankees (A-rod, for example) because it doesn’t actually constrain their future options.

    My cursory understanding is that the Carmelo, Amare, and Chandler contracts pretty much guarantee that the Knicks will be paying luxury taxes over that time span anyway, and the only impact of signing Lin would be an extra ~$30 million in luxury taxes. As many people have asked, why would fans care about their owner paying an extra $30 million in taxes? If signing Lin provides even an extra half-win over the course of the season, wouldn’t that justify signing him as a good basketball position.

    This is just a reaction to all the “he’s not worth that much money” arguments I’ve seen. This is one of the better/smarter sports blogs out there so I’d love to be I’m wrong.

  39. formido

    Devin Gordon@Devingo913
    On the bright side, Knicks fans, Jeremy Lin has no history of proving people wrong.

  40. errkgolub

    Yeah, call me asinine, but I still like our chances without Lin. Sure I’ll miss him, but I’d say Woodson and Grunwald put something pretty extraordinary together last year… even without Lin. I feel like everyone overlooks Woodson’s record without Lin and Grunwald’s Novak/Smith signings. Between injuries, brothers tragically passing, and a shortened season, I will go against the “Kill Knicks Execs” mentality and say that we will have a solid 2012/13 season with the core we have now.

  41. Thomas B.

    Mike Kurylo:
    OK enough with the stupid comments, or I start banning people.

    By stupid comments do you mean the personal insults? Because I can avoid the personal insults, but according to jon, everything I write is stupid. :-)

  42. New Guy

    As I mentioned, so I’m sorry if this has been said already, but:

    1. The notion of defecting to the Nets is ludicrous. I implore anyone who is jumping ship to at least do it right and become Lakers fans. Find an organization that knows what they’re doing. Otherwise you’re just going sideways. At least Judas got silver. You’ll be getting the team that acquired Joe Johnson’s contract, traded a lottery pick for Gerald Wallace, and maxed out Brook Lopez. Good luck with that.

    2. If you’re considering boycotting MSG, welcome to the club. Been doing that since the Eddy Curry trade. This is only the 20th worst thing Dolan has done to me, so I’m not too messed up about it.

    3. We’re going to have the best team we’ve had since 2000. It could be worse.

  43. TyNittyOP

    jon abbey: sure, me too. but in reality, it has nothing to do with your life, anymore than a great or shitty episode of Breaking Bad reflects on you. you didn’t play the game, you didn’t make the show, you can choose what team to root for or which shows to watch, but when they end, you’re back in your own life (this is what LeBron said in a slightly more obnoxious way at the end of his first season in Miami, but he’s right).

    I said the same thing when LeBron said that, bro. He was 100% correct.

  44. TyNittyOP

    New Guy: As I mentioned, so I’m sorry if this has been said already, but:1. The notion of defecting to the Nets is ludicrous. I implore anyone who is jumping ship to at least do it right and become Lakers fans. Find an organization that knows what they’re doing. Otherwise you’re just going sideways. At least Judas got silver. You’ll be getting the team that acquired Joe Johnson’s contract, traded a lottery pick for Gerald Wallace, and maxed out Brook Lopez. Good luck with that.2. If you’re considering boycotting MSG, welcome to the club. Been doing that since the Eddy Curry trade. This is only the 20th worst thing Dolan has done to me, so I’m not too messed up about it. 3. We’re going to have the best team we’ve had since 2000. It could be worse.

    Your 1st point is kinda true (even tho I know plenty of Lakers fan who are ready to jump ship as well).
    The other two pionts are great!!!

  45. Count de Pennies

    People really need to stop trying to parse out the basketball-related or financial-related reasons that may have motivated this move.

    Sure, there may well have been several sound, logical arguments for not matching Houston’s offer and letting Lin walk… but they had no bearing on this decision.

    This was all about Dolan’s petulance… nothing more, nothing less. Just as many of the previous decisions made on his watch have been.

    Dolan was angry at Lin; angry at Morey… so he responded in the only way appropriate to someone of his level of emotional maturity: a temper tantrum. That he was able to piss off a good chunk of the Knick fanbase in the bargain was just a nice little side bonus.

    Since we’re essentially dealing with someone who has the mind of a child, perhaps we should consider using reverse psychology. Had the overwhelming sentiment expressed on internet message boards and talk radio been “Dump that bum, Lin,” I’ve no doubt that he would be a Knick today.

  46. errkgolub

    Count de Pennies:
    People really need to stop trying to parse out the basketball-related or financial-related reasons that may have motivated this move.

    Sure, there may well have been several sound, logical arguments for not matching Houston’s offer and letting Lin walk… but they had no bearing on this decision.

    This was all about Dolan’s petulance… nothing more, nothing less. Just as many of the previous decisions made on his watch have been.

    Dolan was angry at Lin; angry at Morey… so he responded in the only way appropriate to someone of his level of emotional maturity: a temper tantrum. That he was able to piss off a good chunk of the Knick fanbase in the bargain was just a nice little side bonus.

    And I thought I was asinine. I respect your opinion, but I think it is a little naive to say that Dolan trumped all other Knicks executives and stock holders with a say, on the sole argument of “I am angry at Lin and Morey”

    Dolan is dumb yes, but that reasoning is just silly.

  47. george from brooklyn

    OK, I’ve been a Knicks fan since 1955, Kenny Sears was my first fav, by the way, he preceded, that’s right came before, Bill Russell, as WAC player of the year, so clearly I’m not going anywhere, even though I now reside in Scottsdale, AZ. What’s most disappointing is that fans rave when their owner is not afraid to spend money, ergo Dolan “should” be a favorite, but despite that, he continues to get things wrong !! drat ! it could be worst, I could have migrated to a Bob Sarver, the King of long arms and short pockets fame !!

  48. SangaD

    …. .. no one has any kind of analysis on Chris Copeland ? he looks damn good, its summer league but he can ball.. no ?

  49. TyNittyOP

    SangaD: …. .. no one has any kind of analysis on Chris Copeland ? he looks damn good, its summer league but he can ball.. no ?

    Yes he can hoop. But its summer league….so you cant get TOO hyped about it. Can you??

  50. New Guy

    errkgolub: And I thought I was asinine. I respect your opinion, but I think it is a little naive to say that Dolan trumped all other Knicks executives and stock holders with a say, on the sole argument of “I am angry at Lin and Morey”

    Dolan is dumb yes, but that reasoning is just silly.

    Really?

    This is James Dolan. I actually can’t believe you can’t believe that.

  51. Count de Pennies

    errkgolub: And I thought I was asinine. I respect your opinion, but I think it is a little naive to say that Dolan trumped all other Knicks executives and stock holders with a say, on the sole argument of “I am angry at Lin and Morey”

    Dolan is dumb yes, but that reasoning is just silly.

    In March 2001, Dolan was due to show up at Radio City Music Hall, which Cablevision also owns, to help review a dress rehearsal of an upcoming production. Trying to give the workshop a sense of occasion, Seth Abraham, then head of Radio City and soon to be president of the Garden, and Jay Smith, the show’s executive producer, put on usher’s jackets and waited along with cast members, Radio City staff and a clutch of Garden executives to greet Dolan in the lobby. Dolan, who arrived in a white limo, grew livid at the stunt. “Get in your suits!” he shouted at Abraham and Smith. “I’m controlling this process! I run this f—— company!”

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/the_bonus/02/06/price.knicks0212/3.html

  52. Z

    “You have just dined, and however scrupulously the slaughterhouse is concealed in the graceful distance of miles, there is complicity.”

    -Ralph Waldo Emerson (on Mike K. being James Dolan)

  53. Frank

    For those Knick fans that will continue rooting for this team going forward (which includes me, sadly) – one request hopefully people will honor — unless Felton shows up fat and out of shape, we can’t hold losing Jeremy against him. Not his fault. But if he shows up fat knowing that he’s replacing maybe the favorite Knick of the last 20 years – we should let him have it.

    Gotta show up in shape and ready to go. No excuses, no “playing strong” and getting into shape by game 40.

  54. ephus

    If the Knicks were going to try to sign-and-trade Lin, they had to reach out to Houston before Houston made the second offer. At that point, they could have said to Houston, we will match what you have put out now, and we will match whatever you put out later. But, if you really want Lin, we will sign him to 4 years/$24 million (player option on year 4) and trade him to you for X. This could work only if (1) there were no other bidders willing to offer more than the Knicks’ best offer and (2) the Rockets would rather have Lin at 4 years/$24 million and lose whatever asset the Knicks took back than not have Lin.

    From a PR standpoint, the S&T would have been a total disaster. Can you imagine how people would react if the Knicks traded Lin on a reasonable contract to Houston for Patrick Patterson? Houston was not going to give up a first round draft pick for Lin, because they are hoarding them to make an offer on Dwight Howard.

    In the end, the Knicks choices were either to match on Lin (knowing that they could trade or waive and stretch him later) or let him go. If you think Lin is an asset on a 5/5/15 contract (meaning that, without throwing in a sweetener, you would get something for him that would not include salary in 2014-15), you sign him. If you think Lin is a liability on that contract, you let him go.

    I think it is more likely than not that Lin would have been an asset on the Rockets’ offer sheet. But, it is far from a certainty. Lin’s upside would allow the Knicks to contend for the title. I do not think the current roster gets you there.

    For me, this is about the dashing of the hope of a title run this year. Secondarily, it is about an irrational process at MSG. I find it difficult to believe that the Knicks thought that Lin was an asset on the first Rocket offer sheet, but a liability on the final Rocket sheet.

  55. Caleb

    Count de Pennies:

    There are plenty of stupid owners who consistently make lousy decisions. What makes Dolan unique is the willfulness that often seems to drive his choices. My read on the man is that assembling a winning basketball team is far less important to him than demonstrating to the world that he’s the man in charge; the ultimate “decider,” to borrow the parlance of W. Bush.

    What better way to demonstrate one’s power than by making decisions that not only fly in the face of logic but also defy the wishes of the majority of fans. Fans are chanting “Fire Isiah!” at every home game? Fuck ‘em. Fans prefer a measured approach to assembling a roster and are against giving up the farm for a Melo? Fuck ‘em. Y’all prefer that we try and keep Lin? Well, y’all can go fuck yourselves on that one, too. My team; my rules.

    This is correct.

  56. TheRant

    I don’t buy any of this.

    You mean to tell me that they can get to the three people closest to Syrian strongman Bashar Al Assad, but that James Dolan is untouchable?

    I doubt his security could be very loyal to him at this point.

  57. Frank

    Tough to retrospectively look at the strategy re: sign and trade. The #s really are astronomical in terms of tax, as even the ~$5MM difference in guaranteed 2014-15 dollars = 18.75MM in tax dollars + the $15MM in salary = 33.75MM just for Jeremy Lin 2014-15.

    The original contract was for 4 years, ~29M, with 3 years and ~20M guaranteed for Lin (or 6.7M/year), AND the team had an option on him in 2015-16. The best the knicks could offer was 4 years, 24M all guaranteed, or $6M/year. After the 1st offer came out, the Knicks were already not in a great position to try to S&T because their offer was for less money per year — and the extra year guaranteed $ was only for $4M more, probably less than he thought his market value was.

    For Lin to get S&T’d, he HAS TO AGREE. Considering he would rather have played for the Knicks, the $ have to be significantly better for him to go to the Rockets. For him to agree to a S&T for less money AND have his new team give up assets in return doesn’t make any sense.

    Jesus, Morey is a genius – that first offer was just perfect, and the final poison pill made the decision almost impossible. J-Lin would have cost (roughly since I don’t have time to calculate the incremental tax rates):

    2012-13 – $5M salary, ~8M tax = 13M (assuming we ended up somewhere between 5-10M over tax line)
    2013-14 – $5M salary, probably $10M tax = 15M (assuming we ended up somewhere between 10-15MM over tax line)
    2014-15 – $15M salary, probably ~35M tax = 50M (assuming we end up >20MM over tax line)

    So he would have been a 3 year, 78M contract if he played it out.
    As Hollinger pointed out, it would be difficult to trade him prior to 14-15 for another contract without having to pay lux tax on that one too. And even with the stretch, you’d still end up paying ~50-55MM total for just 2 years of work.

    I doubt this was purely a financial decision, but it’s defensible IMHO. I still hate it though.

  58. critgeog

    Count de Pennies:
    People really need to stop trying to parse out the basketball-related or financial-related reasons that may have motivated this move.

    Sure, there may well have been several sound, logical arguments for not matching Houston’s offer and letting Lin walk… but they had no bearing on this decision.

    This was all about Dolan’s petulance… nothing more, nothing less. Just as many of the previous decisions made on his watch have been.

    Dolan was angry at Lin; angry at Morey… so he responded in the only way appropriate to someone of his level of emotional maturity: a temper tantrum. That he was able to piss off a good chunk of the Knick fanbase in the bargain was just a nice little side bonus.

    Since we’re essentially dealing with someone who has the mind of a child, perhaps we should consider using reverse psychology. Had the overwhelming sentiment expressed on internet message boards and talk radio been “Dump that bum, Lin,” I’ve no doubt that he would be a Knick today.

    Truth. Thank you for that.

  59. Caleb

    Thomas B.:
    I just do not understand why not matching is such a “jaw droppingly stupid” move.You guys really think we just let a 2 time MVP walk out the door for nothing?I don’t think so.

    The fact is that we don’t know what we had in Lin.Is a top 20 player, is he a flash in the pan?We still don’t know.

    The problem is we DO know what we have without him…

    Thomas B.:

    The team is on the right track.They are better than they were ten years ago. I think they will continue to improve.

    How so?

    The team is old, capped out and run by a moron willing to actively sabotage his own team, to play the Big Man. They’re a solid playoff team now but there’s no reason to think they can get better, unless Shumpert blows up or they find another 23 y/o starter on the waiver pile.

    And i’m not even mentioning the obvious; Lin wasn’t a future MVP but he’s solid now with a ton of upside, we had total control over his rights but let him walk for nothing. Just like we throw extra players and draft picks into every trade, when we have all the leverage. We value nothing.

    As for the other players, their public attitude shows nothing except that they are a bunch of selfish bastards. But hey, maybe not worse than most NBA players. it’s a clubby group, and Lin isn’t in the club. Players are no kind of talent scouts.

  60. Caleb

    TyNittyOP: I feel what your saying, but if you really think that the key to winning a championship in NY hinged on Jeremy Lin, I personally think you would be incorrect.NO TEAM WE PUT TOGETHER was gonna be able to stop the Heat or the Thunder THIS YEAR.All this decision did was secure the ability to make different decisions in the years to come.

    This idiotic move gives us ZERO additional flexibility with regard to adding players. We are done until the summer of 2015, except for the inevitable Shump trade, or pushing Chandler out the door for Joe Johnson. Unless we move Amare in 2014 or 2015 for an even longer, nearly as bad contract.

  61. Degree_Absolute

    Lin is unabashedly pro-NY in that deeply, deeply depressing SI article. Who knows? In three years when we have cap space, maybe Lin comes back.

  62. Caleb

    Frank:
    J-Lin would have cost (roughly since I don’t have time to calculate the incremental tax rates):

    2012-13 – $5M salary, ~8M tax = 13M (assuming we ended up somewhere between 5-10M over tax line)
    2013-14 – $5M salary, probably $10M tax = 15M (assuming we ended up somewhere between 10-15MM over tax line)
    2014-15 – $15M salary, probably ~35M tax = 50M (assuming we end up >20MM over tax line)

    So he would have been a 3 year, 78M contract if he played it out.
    As Hollinger pointed out, it would be difficult to trade him prior to 14-15 for another contract without having to pay lux tax on that one too.And even with the stretch, you’d still end up paying ~50-55MM total for just 2 years of work.

    Lot of issues there… for one thing, it needs a bit of context – those numbers sound huge, but in that same line of thinking, 2014-2015 Amare & Melo are EACH costing the Knicks more than $100 million for ONE season. $26 million for Lin sounds less ridiculous in that light.

    There also were many ways to trim the final tax bill… moving/dumping other players. The marginal tax rate is so high, even moving $2 million salary saves $10 million.

    And also, if he was a total bust and they DID use the stretch, it only ends up as $43 million (by your pretty reasonable guestimates) over 5 years – granted, for only 2 years work.

    And Hollinger overstates the problems with an S&T… you do have to take back a longer contract, but it can be a smaller one, as long as the team has cap space. If Lin were even decent – like Dragic-level – a ton of teams would have had the cap room to send a $6 million or $8 million player to the Knicks, in exchange for Jeremy on Year 3.

  63. arthurprescott2

    I agree with the people saying this is not Dolan’s worst moment. That was probably when he tried to re-hire Isiah. But that said, this is up there. Not in Knicks history maybe (I’m thinking trading Ewing basically right before he retires – loyalty?).

  64. New Guy

    TheRant:
    I don’t buy any of this.

    You mean to tell me that they can get to the three people closest to Syrian strongman Bashar Al Assad, but that James Dolan is untouchable?

    I doubt his security could be very loyal to him at this point.

    A coworker and I once plotted to have Eddy Curry assassinated before he could exercise his player option and ruin our Knicks salary cap for two more years. It was hard to find a good assassin, though.

    I am being facetious, of course. Though once when I was high I thought that would make a great short story or a script.

  65. arthurprescott2

    Degree_Absolute:
    Lin is unabashedly pro-NY in that deeply, deeply depressing SI article.Who knows?In three years when we have cap space, maybe Lin comes back.

    Who would come back after being so disrespected? When MSG’s media dogs were sent out to assassinate his character? He now knows this is a dysfunctional franchise. I’m also sure that most of the players in the league have recognized it at this point too.

    Remember, Lin didn’t even give exclusive interviews DURING Linsanity. The only reason he did the SI interview was to refute/fight the false rumors SAS/Isola are throwing out there w/o a conscience.

    Talk about burning bridges… this is taking a page out of Bobby-V’s playbook. At least the Red Sox held off two weeks after Youk was sent to Chicago.

  66. Brian Cronin

    Yeah, like I said a few days ago this definitely does feel like what happens to a Red Sox player when they leave the team. I expect to learn any day now that Lin was popping pain pills like crazy or that he was cheating on Terry Francona’s wife.

  67. ruruland

    Caleb: The problem is we DO know what we have without him…

    As for the other players, their public attitude shows nothing except that they are a bunch of selfish bastards. But hey, maybe not worse than most NBA players. it’s a clubby group, and Lin isn’t in the club. Players are no kind of talent scouts.

    Dude, this is silly. JR has every right to feel jealous at some level. He had a 25 game stretch when he first started his tenure in Denver that was pretty close to what Lin did.

    Outside of that there was unanimous support to bring Lin back, Melo at the top of that list.

  68. Caleb

    In 3 years it won’t matter – not like he’s coming back at a discount. It’s like you sell your mansion for $50 and reconsider a year later. It might be a nice house but it ain’t the same thing.

  69. johnlocke

    Agree, but I would say Melo was among those who thought Lin’s head was getting a little too big, heck, I thought that at some points too, esp with his “They kept the game close for me” comment in Philly with Melo, amare and Chandler in the line-up. Dolan, however, just went too far. Lin is no Rondo, but he’s not even 1/2 as egotistical and big-headed as that guy, and while the Celts shopped him, they still wouldn’t be that STUPID to give him away for nothing in return

    ruruland: Dude, this is silly. JR has every right to feel jealous at some level. He had a 25 game stretch when he first started his tenure in Denver that was pretty close to what Lin did.

    Outside of that there was unanimous support to bring Lin back, Melo at the top of that list.

  70. New Guy

    errkgolub:
    … I retract my silly remark. It was silly of me to think that could not possibly be true that one person could have that kind of a say on a figure with such a following as Lin… I stand corrected.

    Hahaha! I actually feel bad we corrected you. What I would give to believe my team was owned my a rational human being. I feel like we just gave you the red pill in the matrix.

  71. Brian Cronin

    I do have to give MSG a lot of credit for doing such a good job with the spin on this one. That you legitimately have “that third year would kill them!” as a common retort from fans (not saying that that is the argument from people okay with the move here, just that it is the retort from the mainstream fans) strikes me as an amazing piece of PR on their behalf. The idea that you could make the team worse, give them no room to substantially improve as you waste Melo’s prime years and then fans will be backing you up because they want you to not have to spend extra money in 2014-15? That’s very impressive.

  72. Caleb

    ruruland: Dude, this is silly. JR has every right to feel jealous at some level. He had a 25 game stretch when he first started his tenure in Denver that was pretty close to what Lin did.

    Outside of that there was unanimous support to bring Lin back, Melo at the top of that list.

    I don’t totally blame JR for feeling squeezed, but he’s an idiot on several levels for saying what he said.

    And you are very naive if you think Melo was enthusiastic about keeping Lin. He was ready to tolerate it.

  73. Caleb

    We can start with the obvious – if Melo had lobbied to have Lin back, Lin would be back. Maybe that’s not his place, but he wasn’t on top of the “loving Lin” list.

    And then there’s the comments about the “ridiculous” contract. Since when do players call other players’ deals ridiculous?

    And then last year when people kept saying Melo was jealous, so he claimed that he was the one who urged D’Antoni to put Lin on the court in the first place. Of course when reporters asked D’Antoni about it, he said “I don’t know what you’re talking about.”

    Oh, I could go on and on….

    I’m not saying he pulled the trigger but don’t say he had Lin’s back.

  74. Thomas B.

    And i’m not even mentioning the obvious; Lin wasn’t a future MVP but he’s solid now with a ton of upside, we had total control over his rights but let him walk for nothing. Just like we throw extra players and draft picks into every trade, when we have all the leverage. We value nothing.

    Ah the “upside” argument. It reminds me of that great line from “The Terminator.” You know when Dr. Silberman is talking about Reese.
    “This is great stuff. I could make a career out of this guy! You see how clever his part is? How it doesn’t require a shred of proof? Most paranoid delusions are intricate, but this is brilliant!”

    Not that I’m saying you are delusional, but “upside” is such a mystical argument. It can’t be quantified in any way at all. Nobody knows exactly what it means. There isn’t even a way to establish that a person has it, but once you think it’s there buy you better not give up on it.

    Look for 3 days now I’ve been talking about how he played against the best teams in the East. In 5-6 games against east playoff teams he was awful. He played average ball in only one of those games I think it was Indy. All this hype about upside and nobody says a word about downside. He could very well be as bad as he looked against Miami and Boston and Philly. And if he is, then hell what’s the point as we have to play those teams to contend for a title.

    All the things you said about the team are true. Old, capped-out, lack of ability to bring in more talent. But I do not think Lin would have fixed much if any of those issues. Older yes, but a bit deeper and more experienced. The starters are still in their prime with the exception of Felton who seems not to have ever had one.

  75. Degree_Absolute

    arthurprescott2: He now knows this is a dysfunctional franchise.

    If he ever visited ESPN.com or read any New York-area sports section prior to joining the Knicks, the organizational putrescence would not have been news to him. I don’t disagree with you that it would require him to swallow his pride (to a point) to play in Knicks uniform again in three years, but, the running theme with Lin is defying expectations. He seems like a good person (and pride is a sin), so please don’t deny me this completely improbable (but not impossible) fantasy.

  76. Caleb

    Thomas B.: Ah the “upside” argument.It reminds me of that great line from “The Terminator.” You know when Dr. Silberman is talking about Reese.
    “This is great stuff. I could make a career out of this guy! You see how clever his part is? How it doesn’t require a shred of proof? Most paranoid delusions are intricate, but this is brilliant!”

    Not that I’m saying you are delusional, but “upside” is such a mystical argument.It can’t be quantified in any way at all.Nobody knows exactly what it means. There isn’t even a way to establish that a person has it, but once you think it’s there buy you better not give up on it.

    Look for 3 days now I’ve been talking about how he played against the best teams in the East.In 5-6 games against east playoff teams he was awful.He played average ball in only one of those games I think it was Indy.All this hype about upside and nobody says a word about downside.He could very well be as bad as he looked against Miami and Boston and Philly.And if he is, then hell what’s the point as we have to play those teams to contend for a title.

    All the things you said about the team are true. Old, capped-out, lack of ability to bring in more talent. But I do not think Lin would have fixed much if any of those issues.Older yes, but a bit deeper and more experienced.The starters are still in their prime with the exception of Felton who seems not to have ever had one.

    You cherry-picked stats left and right; it would be like me saying he’s a future MVP because he hit up the Lakers for 38. Steve Nash was something like 1 for 11 with 3 points against the Heat last year; what does that mean?

    to be continued… !

  77. DRed

    Who are the ‘basketball people’ close to guitar Jimmy who told him that The Stay Puft Marshmallow Felton was going to be as good as Lin?

  78. ruruland

    Caleb: I don’t totally blame JR for feeling squeezed, but he’s an idiot on several levels for saying what he said.

    And you are very naive if you think Melo was enthusiastic about keeping Lin. He was ready to tolerate it.

    Why does that make him an idiot? Whatever he said had absolutely nothing to do with the Knicks deciding to not match the offer. people are going to think he’s an idiot regardless, certainly some of that is deserved based on his history.

    Does it make him an idiot to acknowledge some jealousy for the size of the contract? That would have been a minor issue in the locker room regardless of the fact that he acknowledged it…

    And, once again, you can’t say melo is unfiltered and then filter his comments in a way that fits the caracature that you want(scapegoat/ asshole/ horrible teammate/seflish/stupid)…

    I don’t see you questioning Lin when he contextualizes his past comments (like the 85% comment)……

    melo said Lin’s contract was ridiculous. And what he meant had nothing to do with Lin, and everything to do with the poison pill aspect of it…..

    Again, time after time, Melo had said he wanted Lin back, he recently said he couldn’t wait to see what his upside is…..In fact, even when he talked about the contract he said he wanted Lin back — and of course he did. He wants to win.

    Do you honestly for one second believe Melo is happy if the team loses but he scores points? The level of ignorance in that preconception is as irritating as any Lin smear campaign. You understand that a big reason Melo was the experience in the ’10 playoffs against Utah where no one stepped up beside him?

    Do you not think he’s enjoyed the Olympics where he’s often been the third, fourth or sometimes even fifth option?

  79. chrisk06811

    New Guy:
    I’ve been on vacation for a week.Did I miss anything?

    Oddly, while on vacation (in Charleston, SC) I sat at a table next to Raymond Felton.This was Friday.Our girls started talking, we did, too.Nice guy.Looks like a bouncer.When news broke that night that we had traded for him, I told my GF the Knicks just got that big guy we were talking to at lunch.She was completely incredulous when she replied, “to play BASKETBALL?”

    Anyone who tells you Ray is in decent shape this summer is lying.

    Did he finish your fries?

  80. johnlocke

    FWIW — Felton also had like 3 pts against the Heat last year…he was equally terrible.

    Caleb: You cherry-picked stats left and right; it would be like me saying he’s a future MVP because he hit up the Lakers for 38. Steve Nash was something like 1 for 11 with 3 points against the Heat last year; what does that mean?

    to be continued… !

  81. Caleb

    There’s nothing mystical about upside – he’s 23 years old with only 25 games under his belt. 23-year-olds get better. Inexperienced players get experienced. It’s the easiest prediction to make on earth. Lin’s weaknesses – shooting, TOs – are the things that can get better. It’s not like saying, he has to be taller, or rebound better (rebounding peaks early, like year 2!)

    And you can complain all you want about his rough games, but he was pretty good last year, a lot better than Ray Felton. You won’t find players as good as he was – even for 800 minutes or whatever it was – who crawl back into a hole.

    You can pick literally any player in the league who’s not LeBron James, take a 25-game stretch and you will see some stinkers. Especially if you look at rookies, which Lin essentially was.

  82. chrisk06811

    New Guy: A coworker and I once plotted to have Eddy Curry assassinated before he could exercise his player option and ruin our Knicks salary cap for two more years.It was hard to find a good assassin, though.

    I am being facetious, of course.Though once when I was high I thought that would make a great short story or a script.

    lol……you said that Eddy Curry could exercise.

  83. Caleb

    ruruland: Why does that make him an idiot? Whatever he said had absolutely nothing to do with the Knicks deciding to not match the offer. people are going to think he’s an idiot regardless, certainly some of that is deserved based on his history.

    Does it make him an idiot to acknowledge some jealousy for the size of the contract? That would have been a minor issue in the locker room regardless of the fact that he acknowledged it…

    And, once again, you can’t say melo is unfiltered and then filter his comments ina way that fits the caracature that you want(scapegoat/ asshole/ horrible teammate/seflish/stupid)…

    I don’t see you questioning Lin when he contextualizes his past comments (like the 85% comment)……

    melo said Lin’s contract was ridiculous. And what he meant had nothing to do with Lin, and everything to do with the poison pill aspect of it…..

    Again, time after time, Melo had said he wanted Lin back, he recently said he couldn’t wait to see what his upside is…..In fact, even when he talked about the contract he said he wanted Lin back — and of course he did. He wants to win.

    Do you honestly for one second believe Melo is happy if the team loses but he scores points? The level of ignorance in that preconception is as irritating as any Lin smear campaign. You understand that a big reason Melo was the experience in the ’10 playoffs against Utah where no one stepped up beside him?

    Do you not think he’s enjoyed the Olympics where he’s often been the third, fourth or sometimes even fifth option?

    i’m sorry, are you talking to me? This doesn’t address my comment.

    Except J.R. Smith – you’ll have to do some research to find the last player who publically criticized another player’s comment, a teammate no less.

  84. arthurprescott2

    Thomas B.: Ah the “upside” argument.It reminds me of that great line from “The Terminator.” You know when Dr. Silberman is talking about Reese.
    “This is great stuff. I could make a career out of this guy! You see how clever his part is? How it doesn’t require a shred of proof? Most paranoid delusions are intricate, but this is brilliant!”

    Not that I’m saying you are delusional, but “upside” is such a mystical argument.It can’t be quantified in any way at all.Nobody knows exactly what it means. There isn’t even a way to establish that a person has it, but once you think it’s there buy you better not give up on it.

    Look for 3 days now I’ve been talking about how he played against the best teams in the East.In 5-6 games against east playoff teams he was awful.He played average ball in only one of those games I think it was Indy.All this hype about upside and nobody says a word about downside.He could very well be as bad as he looked against Miami and Boston and Philly.And if he is, then hell what’s the point as we have to play those teams to contend for a title.

    All the things you said about the team are true. Old, capped-out, lack of ability to bring in more talent. But I do not think Lin would have fixed much if any of those issues.Older yes, but a bit deeper and more experienced.The starters are still in their prime with the exception of Felton who seems not to have ever had one.

    You clearly don’t even know what “upside” means… It can be quantified – which is why all the stat heads spent two days compiling and dredging up statistical comparisons of Lin’s 25 games against other such streaks. 80% of the time he comes out as a good if not great player. That’s upside. quantified. You can say you don’t buy advanced stats or love the analysis. But don’t pretend like its some mystical concept that some people have latched onto to.

  85. ruruland

    Caleb:
    We can start with the obvious – if Melo had lobbied to have Lin back, Lin would be back. Maybe that’s not his place, but he wasn’t on top of the “loving Lin” list.

    And then there’s the comments about the “ridiculous” contract. Since when do players call other players’ deals ridiculous?

    And then last year when people kept saying Melo was jealous, so he claimed that he was the one who urged D’Antoni to put Lin on the court in the first place. Of course when reporters asked D’Antoni about it, he said “I don’t know what you’re talking about.”

    Oh, I could go on and on….

    I’m not saying he pulled the trigger but don’t say he had Lin’s back.

    I’m naive, right? lmao

    Look, the contract was ridiculous. We spent days talking about the poison pill. If you focus on just that one comment, and ignore the breadth of his comments, and also ignore the context of that statement, then of course you can make Melo look however you want…..

    he wasn’t a cheerleader to have him signed, but again, his comments are the type he always makes about personnel decisions– it’s not him to him and he hopes the front office makes the best decision…

    That’s what he’s always said because, guess what, that’s the truth.

    And, again, maybe Melo was jealous of Lin, but we don’t know that because of something Melo said or did, but because of the media pushing their anti-Melo narrative basically from the start of Linsanity…

    The media made Melo vs Lin, neither Melo nor Lin had anything to do with a division between them. It was manufactured by the medai then and continued into today, and because Melo is so disliked, it’s swallowed up by people like you .

  86. johnlocke

    In all fairness, I don’t think Melo really respected Lin’s game all that much…he viewed him as a young player with potential, but not as the starting PG for a championship contender. Do you really think Melo got on the phone with Dolan and begged him to keep Lin and that he was a key to them winning a championship? I highly doubt that.

    Anyway, here’s the expected meme –‘Melo better damn win…since he ran D’Antoni out of town’ …first article of many I’m sure.
    http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/8177054/johnette-howard-minus-jeremy-lin-carmelo-anthony-new-york-knicks-better-win

  87. arthurprescott2

    ruruland: Why does that make him an idiot? Whatever he said had absolutely nothing to do with the Knicks deciding to not match the offer. people are going to think he’s an idiot regardless, certainly some of that is deserved based on his history.

    Does it make him an idiot to acknowledge some jealousy for the size of the contract? That would have been a minor issue in the locker room regardless of the fact that he acknowledged it…

    I have no problem with Melo (he has no filter but he’s not a bad guy, just dumb). But you cannot be seriously defending JR. Look at his twitter feed. He’s gloating. There is malicious intent. He implies Lin was not loyal. Who does that? This is a pro-league. Players’ code – you don’t begrudge another guy making money and you sure as hell don’t express your grudge to the media.

  88. ruruland

    Caleb: i’m sorry, are you talking to me? This doesn’t address my comment.

    Except J.R. Smith – you’ll have to do some research to find the last player who publically criticized another player’s comment, a teammate no less.

    What are you talking about? Just make your point and post the quote you’re talking about.

  89. JK47

    Jeremy Lin was the one player in the entire NBA the Knicks could have added, or retained, or whatever, to add to their talent base, because they had his Early Bird rights. He was the only chance they had to get a player who is not on a veteran minimum contract. It’s not like they could have spent that money on somebody else. They chose not to, and chose to let him walk and get nothing in return, because he hurt Dolan’s feelings.

    Look, Lin has easily outplayed pretty much every PG from the past two drafts except Kyrie Irving. They basically found a free lottery pick on the scrap heap and gave it away for nothing. It’s like finding a Picasso at a garage sale and then not buying it because the guy at the garage sale originally offered it to you for $100 but then raised the price to $200.

    It’s a futile exercise hoping that idiots succeed despite their own idiocy. This isn’t the first idiotic move these people have made, and it won’t be the last. It’s SOP.

    If this team had any patience or foresight, they could have probably brought in Chris Paul or Dwight Howard, two legitimate stars who would have made much more sense alongside Amar’e Stoudemire. Instead they thought it was a good idea to bring in another volume scorer. And they invested five years into this strategy.

    Good teams don’t do shit like this. This upcoming year is the Knicks’ window to do something. Good luck with that, guys. I’m out.

  90. Caleb

    ruruland: I’m naive, right? lmao

    Look, the contract was ridiculous. We spent days talking about the poison pill. If you focus on just that one comment, and ignore the breadth of his comments, and also ignore the context of that statement, then of course you can make Melo look however you want…..

    he wasn’t a cheerleader to have him signed, but again, his comments are the type he always makes about personnel decisions– it’s not him to him and he hopes the front office makes the best decision…

    That’s what he’s always said because, guess what, that’s the truth.

    And, again, maybe Melo was jealous of Lin, but we don’t know that because of something Melo said or did, but because of the media pushing their anti-Melo narrative basically from the start of Linsanity…

    The media made Melo vs Lin, neither Melo nor Lin had anything to do with a division between them. It was manufactured by the medai then and continued into today, and because Melo is so disliked, it’s swallowed up by people like you .

    I’m just stating the obvious, that they weren’t tight and Melo didn’t lobby for him. Your last post said he was Lin’s #1 cheerleader.

  91. Caleb

    And how “ridiculous” is a contract where 90 percent of the basketball analysts (and KB posters) think the Knicks should have signed it?

  92. ruruland

    arthurprescott2: I have no problem with Melo (he has no filter but he’s not a bad guy, just dumb). But you cannot be seriously defending JR. Look at his twitter feed. He’s gloating. There is malicious intent. He implies Lin was not loyal. Who does that? This is a pro-league. Players’ code – you don’t begrudge another guy making money and you sure as hell don’t express your grudge to the media.

    I don’t think you follow JR’s feed closely. The guy will do a lot for attention… I don’t see gloating there at all. he posts a lot of stuff that can be misinterpreted…..

    How do you interpret this: “JR Smith?@TheRealJRSmith

    Thats sad! RT @FisolaNYDN: Not that J.R. needs a reason to party but this Lin news could lead to a wild night.

  93. Caleb

    ruruland: What the fuck are you talking about? Trying to be smug, just make your point and post the quote you’re talking about.

    Asked if Lin’s contract could cause a challenging dynamic with his teammates, Smith agreed.

    “Without a doubt,” he said. “I think some guys take it personal, because they’ve been doing it longer and haven’t received any reward for it yet. I think it’s a tough subject to touch on for a lot of guys.”

    Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/sam_amick/07/15/jeremy-lin-rockets-knicks-free-agency/index.html#ixzz2109K3F6i

  94. Robert Silverman

    May I please ask, that commenters try to be extra-nice to one another in this thread. No matter what one’s opinion is in this situation, it’s clear that emotions are really raw right now. Whether this is the dumbest move in franchise history or the greatest or somewhere in-between, there’s no need for any of us to vent our spleens/take out our frustrations on one another. Make as strong a case as you like, but I’d ask that you realize that this isn’t just about the merits of a basketball decision — it’s emotional. It’s personal and take that into account when responding to someone.

    Okay?

    Thanks

  95. DRed

    People really think the idea players improve after their rookie year is a ‘mystical argument’?

  96. ephus

    With apologies to Hall & Oates

    Lin’s Gone Oh I, Oh I’d
    better learn how to face it
    Lin’s Gone Oh I, Oh I’d
    pay the devil to replace him
    Lin’s Gone – what went wrong

    What went wrong:

    1. Knicks could not extend Lin before the end of the season. Under the CBA, second round picks and UDFA must become free agents after their second season. The Knicks made their qualifying offer to make Lin a RFA, but there was no way to keep him off the market.

    Alternative: None

    2. Knicks told Lin to go set the market. This reminds of the scene from Heist (overlooked David Mamet film) where Gene Hackman finds out that his wife (Rebecca Pidgeon) has left him for the rival (Sam Rockwell) that Hackman had asked her to seduce. “You never should have hotwalked me in front of him.” Once you tell your players to go set the market, you guarantee that they will get into deep talks with other teams.

    Alternative: Offer Lin max 3 year (3/$18 million) and max 4 year (4/$24 million) with player option on last year of each deal.

    3. Before Lin signs it, Knicks publicly state that they will match the Rockets’ first offer sheet (4 years/$28.6 million (4th year team option). Basically, the Knicks told the Rockets that they would have to up their offer if they really wanted Lin at a time when they could up their offer. This was the big mistake, with no real upside. If the Knicks waited until Lin signed the offer sheet, there is little chance that the Rockets would have bid against themselves and made a higher offer.

    Alternative: NO COMMENT, or, If Jeremy signs an offer sheet with another team, we will study it closely and decide what to do then

    4. Knicks do not match Rockets offer

    Alternative: MATCH By yesterday, the choices were simply to match and take the risk that Lin will not be worth his contract (which would then have to be traded or waived to avoid a huge tax bill) or not match and take the certainty…

  97. ruruland

    Caleb:
    And how “ridiculous” is a contract where 90 percent of the basketball analysts (and KB posters) think the Knicks should have signed it?

    The idea of a poison pill is ridiculous to some. The idea that a team that created the offer sheet could force the team matching to pay upwards of $50 million one year is ridiculous. Melo was talking about how the contract was constructed, not a cost-benefit analysis of whether it was smart for the Knicks to match. he made that quite clear. but I know you like to ignore the many quotes that don’t fit your narrative.

  98. ruruland

    Robert Silverman:
    May I please ask, that commenters try to be extra-nice to one another in this thread. No matter what one’s opinion is in this situation, it’s clear that emotions are really raw right now. Whether this is the dumbest move in franchise history or the greatest or somewhere in-between, there’s no need for any of us to vent our spleens/take out our frustrations on one another. Make as strong a case as you like, but I’d ask that you realize that this isn’t just about the merits of a basketball decision — it’s emotional. It’s personal and take that into account when responding to someone.

    Okay?

    Thanks

    My bad, Rob.

  99. arthurprescott2

    ruruland: I don’t think you follow JR’s feed closely. The guy will do a lot for attention… I don’t see gloating there at all. he posts a lot of stuff that can be misinterpreted…..

    How do you interpret this: “JR Smith?@TheRealJRSmith

    Thats sad! RT @FisolaNYDN: Not that J.R. needs a reason to party but this Lin news could lead to a wild night.

    Yea I understand JR likes to seek attention. And he’s not brightest bulb out there so it makes sense that he says stuff that could be easily misinterpreted. And moreover, when he says “That’s sad!” I’m going to take that at face value.

    But that said:
    JR Smith ?@TheRealJRSmith
    Who gone die loyal! ?#kiss

    This is not a man who should be defended. That tweet was 21 hrs ago. RIGHT after he RT that Knicks aren’t going to match Lin’s contract.

  100. ruruland

    Caleb: Asked if Lin’s contract could cause a challenging dynamic with his teammates, Smith agreed.

    “Without a doubt,” he said. “I think some guys take it personal, because they’ve been doing it longer and haven’t received any reward for it yet. I think it’s a tough subject to touch on for a lot of guys.”

    Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/sam_amick/07/15/jeremy-lin-rockets-knicks-free-agency/index.html#ixzz2109K3F6i

    I addressed this. I think in many ways JR is justified in thinking it. The kid played 25 games, a very good stretch of course, and gets a deal much bigger than what JR has ever received.

    To a lot of guys who have been around and paid their dues in the league, have been solid players, and the kid comes in and plays a third of a season and skips all of that to a big contract… you don’t get that?

    I think you can go to any big company and you’ll find the same reaction..l.

  101. Frank

    Before I even write this, let me just say I think that Dolan didn’t re-sign Lin because he feels like Lin somehow disrespected him.

    But — from a basketball/financial perspective, I think a reasonable poker analogy is this:

    – NYK thinks they have the best hand (say, pocket queens) and play out aggressively (go find the best offer and we’ll match it)
    – HOU raises, NYK laughs and reraises (1st Houston offer sheet, Knicks laugh and say we’ll match up to 1 billion dollars)
    – HOU comes back with over-the-top raise (Houston 2nd offer sheet)

    Now you look at your cards, and realize you already have 70% of your stack out on the table (total pre-existing guaranteed contracts in 2014-15) and you’re being asked to put 25 out of your last 30% into the pot with your hand (3 years, $78MM total contract for Lin), which you think is the best, but…just maybe… isn’t.

    So Dolan/Grunwald folded. Too early to know if Houston was holding pocket AA or not, or whether we got bluffed out.

    Or Dolan is a 2 year old and threw a temper tantrum. Probably more likely.

  102. ruruland

    arthurprescott2: Yea I understand JR likes to seek attention. And he’s not brightest bulb out there so it makes sense that he says stuff that could be easily misinterpreted. And moreover, when he says “That’s sad!” I’m going to take that at face value.

    But that said:
    JR Smith ?@TheRealJRSmith
    Who gone die loyal! ?#kiss

    This is not a man who should be defended. That tweet was 21 hrs ago. RIGHT after he RT that Knicks aren’t going to match Lin’s contract.

    Well, let’s take a second and think about what that means. Did JR just take less than what he probably could have received in the open market to come back to NY????????????

    Is that what Lin did?

    I don’t see what is so inflammatory there.

  103. Frank

    I have to be honest. What does “who gone die loyal” actually mean? is that even talking about Jeremy Lin?

  104. Robert Silverman

    ruruland: My bad, Rob.

    Thanks ruru. I wasn’t specifically calling you out. It’s more a general reminder to everyone. This thread’s gotten heated a few times already. I’m right there with all y’all. It really hurts. Alas, I’m stupidly wasting my time calling out Frank Isola’s rank hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty on Twitter, seeing if I can get hom to DM me with one of his famous one-sided petty bile-fests. So that’s how I’m coping with my feelings of rage, betrayal and impotence, FWIW.

    My boss suggested fire-bombing Madison Square Garden (not seriously), but I reminded him that as a 40-year old building it’s probably packed to the gills with asbestos, and we’d be poisoning most of Lower Manhattan if we started gathering Molotov cocktails.

    So yes, everyone’s upset. This community is filled with so many great, smart basketball fans, I’d hate to lose any of you based on a comment made in the heat of the moment. That’s all.

  105. Thomas B.

    Caleb: You cherry-picked stats left and right; it would be like me saying he’s a future MVP because he hit up the Lakers for 38. Steve Nash was something like 1 for 11 with 3 points against the Heat last year; what does that mean?

    to be continued… !

    Cherry pick?! WE HAVE ONLY 35 games to pick from. It isn’t cherry picking when there isnt much to pick. Steve Nash has played 1152 games. No sensible person would focus on 1 game in over 1152 games. Lin played 35 games for NYC 64 in his whole damn career. That isnt even a full season!! (My God you are turning me into Stephen A. Smith.)

    Challenge for you. Stack up Lin’s best games against playoff teams against his worst and then tell me which column has more checks in it. That isnt cherry picking that is fair comparison of good games vs bad games. Yes it was great that he put on a show against the Wizards, but you don’t need to beat the Wizards to get to the Eastern finals. I did not cherry pick, i looked at every game against the top Eastern teams. In 9 games, he had two good games, two fair games, and five awful games.

    Why am I wrong to look at how he performs against the top teams in the conference? What did I miss in doing that?

  106. Thomas B.

    Caleb:
    And how “ridiculous” is a contract where 90 percent of the basketball analysts (and KB posters) think the Knicks should have signed it?

    Oh yeah we are all either former basketball executives or soon to be basketball executives. How can 40 people all be wrong?

  107. thenamestsam

    Thomas B.: Ah the “upside” argument.

    It seems based on your post like you’re understanding the “upside” argument as something different than it is, so I’ll try to lay it out clearly since it’s something I really believe.

    I’m not much of a believer in Lin. I was a doubter from Day 1, and if I had a gun to my head and had to bet on him being a star or out of the league in 5 years I’m taking out of the league. So I’m not saying there’s no downside, or that he’s only upside or anything like that. What I am saying is that this Knicks team is not winning anything of significance unless someone takes a big step forward. The Melo-Tyson-Amare core is not going to have a chance to win a title just because you put the right fringe pieces around it. And unfortunately the only guys we have the option to add to it ARE fringe pieces. The Feltons and Kidds and Cambys.

    However, Lin was the exception. Even if there was a very low chance that he becomes a star (and I do think it’s a slim chance) based on what we saw during Linsanity I think you’d have to admit the chance does exist. Even if it was a 10% chance, that 10% was the only way we were ever going to be true championship competitors with this core. That was our upside as a team. He was BY FAR the guy most likely to take a big enough leap forward to make us contenders. Even if that leap was extremely unlikely, it’s still a higher chance than JKidd, or Felton, or one of our “stars” with their well-established talent levels. He wasn’t likely to be a star, but the guys who are likely to be stars get drafted #1 overall. He had a chance, and that chance was our only hope of winning a title with this group, and that hope is gone.

  108. ruruland

    Frank:
    I have to be honest. What does “who gone die loyal” actually mean? is that even talking about Jeremy Lin?

    No, it’s not.

  109. Frank

    ephus: 3. Before Lin signs it, Knicks publicly state that they will match the Rockets’ first offer sheet (4 years/$28.6 million (4th year team option). Basically, the Knicks told the Rockets that they would have to up their offer if they really wanted Lin at a time when they could up their offer. This was the big mistake, with no real upside. If the Knicks waited until Lin signed the offer sheet, there is little chance that the Rockets would have bid against themselves and made a higher offer.

    Alternative: NO COMMENT, or, If Jeremy signs an offer sheet with another team, we will study it closely and decide what to do then

    Great analysis ephus – and if you look at the quotes back then, this is exactly how Grunwald played it – but not how everyone else did. As soon as the offer sheet was out there, Grunwald said exactly what you said he should say. But Woodson said they’d match, “sources” said of course they’d match. And the rest is history.

  110. ephus

    If we are going to use the poker analogy, then the Knicks not only pushed a hand that they really did not intend to ride all the way, but also showed one of their hole cards.

    The fact that MSG allowed the message to get out they would match “up to a billion” means that either (1) they had not thought it all the way through or (2) they believed it at the time and changed their mind because of pique. Dolan imposes stronger message control on his coach and staff than virtually any other team. Even if Woodson was not explicitly told that he should inform the media that the Knicks would match the rumored offer sheet, he clearly was told that they would. Same goes for whoever said that the Knicks would match up to $1 billion.

    If Dolan wants to know whom to blame for Lin getting the $14.9 million offer, he needs to look in the mirror.

  111. arthurprescott2

    Alright. Maybe that’s just how I see things and you guys see it differently. But to me from the context (of when he tweeted it), it seems JR was implying Lin wasn’t loyal. Yea JR took less money to stay. But he does not need to go out of his way to begrudge another teammate for not staying/taking more money. This just looks like he’s trying to create fervor against Lin which is exactly what MSG’s media strategy has been for the past few days. Making Lin out to be ungrateful and disloyal so that this mistake is easier to swallow for fans. I know some of you think this is some far-fetched theory. But its pretty common place but still morally repugnant. It’s just usually in the NBA this kind of stuff doesn’t come out of the locker room until the guy is retired or dead.

  112. ww007

    johnlocke:
    Jeremy Lin’s take on this whole fiasco:Only the Knicks could look a gift horse in the mouth

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/basketball/nba/07/18/jeremy-lin-exclusive/index.html

    Great article and very revealing. It confirms:
    1) Jeremy Lin wanted to be a Knick all along.
    2) Criticisms against him for not playing against the Heat in the 1st round because he was putting himself over the team were unfounded.
    3) It was the Knicks’ plan all along to re-sign him. Somebody fucked up (Dolan I’m looking at you).

    I wanted the Knicks to re-sign Lin not just because I’m an Asian-American myself, but also because he needed to be on the team to represent the Knicks’ best shot of winning a championship.

    What I don’t understand is, why couldn’t the Knicks have offered the standard salary to begin with (I believe 4 yrs $24 million)? I mean, if he turns it down then he turns it down, what’s wrong with that? Maybe he loves NY so much that he signs it without even fielding other offers (wishful thinking?). Unless they thought he wasn’t even going to get that good of an offer in the free market, which would have been foolish of them.

    At least it seems like we know what happened now: the plan WAS to match the original offer. But when it got changed (for reasons still unclear), Dolan balked. Seems like Grunwald was avoiding receiving the Rocket’s offer sheet to buy some time for Dolan to change his mind.

    Lin did what he had to do: sign the only offer sheet he had. Can’t blame him for that. And to people blaming Lin for re-negotiating his contract, it was probably all his agents’ doing. And I wouldn’t be surprised if that “Knicks will match up to 1 billion dollars” quote was from someone trying to sabotage…

  113. ruruland

    Robert Silverman: Thanks ruru. I wasn’t specifically calling you out. It’s more a general reminder to everyone. This thread’s gotten heated a few times already. I’m right there with all y’all. It really hurts. Alas, I’m stupidly wasting my time calling out Frank Isola’s rank hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty on Twitter,seeing if I can get hom to DM me with one of his famous one-sided petty bile-fests. So that’s how I’m coping with my feelings of rage, betrayal and impotence, FWIW.

    My boss suggested fire-bombing Madison Square Garden (not seriously), but I reminded him that as a 40-year old building it’s probably packed to the gills with asbestos, and we’d be poisoning most of Lower Manhattan if we started gathering Molotov cocktails.

    So yes, everyone’s upset. This community is filled with so many great, smart basketball fans, I’d hate to lose any of you based on a comment made in the heat of the moment. That’s all.

    Well put as always

  114. JK47

    If Lin stays healthy, he will be a fine player. It’s not like he relied on some flukey hot streak of jump shooting– he was one of the very top iso players in the league, not a surprise since he has a lightning fast first step and is a creative finisher around the rim.

    The 40+ AST% percentage, was that a fluke too? I mean, come on, people. Take a look at the stat lines of other PGs from the last two drafts– Lin crushes all of them except Kyrie Irving.

  115. ww007

    …the Knicks.

    Fact is, the Knicks needed to make re-signing Lin the #1 priority this off-season. I would much rather have had him signed than Novak or JR Smith.

    I feel like everything good that’s happened this past season – the Linsanity, the miraculously favorable Bird’s Rights ruling – have all been for nothing. It’s going to be very hard to root for this team now, if I can at all

  116. Thomas B.

    Caleb:
    There’s nothing mystical about upside – he’s 23 years old with only 25 games under his belt. 23-year-olds get better.

    No, they don’t always get better. Sometimes they peak right where they are, sometimes they flame out. You think all the 23 years old who came into the NBA and didnt make it were cut becasue they all got better? Seriously. Your upside is just wishful thinking. It might turn out to be true but you have no way to know whether it will. It is a guess that he will get better. A lot of people never develop a left, or learn to run an offense. There is no way to say for sure that Lin will get better. You are just invested in him so you hope that he will. That’s why you excuse away all the awful games as just a fluke. Lucky for you he only played in 35 games. It would be harder to excuse away more awful games or an awful showing in the playoffs. But since that didnt happen, you can just tell yourself that it could not have. Lucky you.

  117. Degree_Absolute

    DRed:
    People really think the idea players improve after their rookie year is a ‘mystical argument’?

    Yeah I don’t buy that. If people were going back and forth about intangibles, I could get on board the “mystical argument” express. Speaking of intangibles, Doris from Rego Park, RIP.

  118. johnlocke

    You’re gonna have to change your avatar bro… =)

    Robert Silverman:
    May I please ask, that commenters try to be extra-nice to one another in this thread. No matter what one’s opinion is in this situation, it’s clear that emotions are really raw right now. Whether this is the dumbest move in franchise history or the greatest or somewhere in-between, there’s no need for any of us to vent our spleens/take out our frustrations on one another. Make as strong a case as you like, but I’d ask that you realize that this isn’t just about the merits of a basketball decision — it’s emotional. It’s personal and take that into account when responding to someone.

    Okay?

    Thanks

  119. formido

    Also, some people speculated a lot of slanderous motives and actions to Lin, starting with his not playing in the playoffs and continuing through negotiations. After reading the previous interview, those folks don’t have a leg to stand on. Lin is the man he appears to be. And so is Dolan.

  120. thenamestsam

    I was hoping someone better at this cap stuff (ephus?) could lay out what the situation would have been if we lost the Bird Rights ruling. My understanding at the time was that we would have been limited to Lin (full mid-level), a mini midlevel guy, JR and then minimum guys. I think I’d rather have that then what we ended up with. Is that the actual alternative that we missed out on?

  121. New Guy

    ruruland: The idea of a poison pill is ridiculous to some. The idea that a team that created the offer sheet could force the team matching to pay upwards of $50 million one year is ridiculous. Melo was talking about how the contract was constructed, not a cost-benefit analysis of whether it was smart for the Knicks to match. he made that quite clear. but I know you like to ignore the many quotes that don’t fit your narrative.

    Every quote fits the narrative because he shouldn’t have been publicly commenting on it.

  122. Frank

    Change in subject, but how awesome is this Sportvu-related article by Kirk Goldsberry?

    This is a glimpse of the future of advanced stats.
    The only thing he needs to make it better from my standpoint is to look at contested vs. uncontested shots, and how spacing changes that ratio. Easy to say that contested midrange shots are terrible, but having to guard someone in that midrange area may open up more relatively uncontested shots elsewhere.

  123. formido

    Lin only ever had one offer sheet to sign, no matter what was leaked to the media. Knicks refused to make an offer. So there you go. The “personal” issue is mad up in Dolan’s head. He’s a mad king.

    Knicks fortunes karma for Dolan. Smh.

  124. SimbaPuppy

    Thomas B.: Cherry pick?!WE HAVE ONLY 35 games to pick from. It isn’t cherry picking when there isnt much to pick.Steve Nash has played 1152 games. No sensible person would focus on 1 game in over 1152 games. Lin played 35 games for NYC 64 in his whole damn career. That isnt even a full season!! (My God you are turning me into Stephen A. Smith.)

    Challenge for you. Stack up Lin’s best games against playoff teams against his worst and then tell me which column has more checks in it. That isnt cherry picking that is fair comparison of good games vs bad games.Yes it was great that he put on a show against the Wizards, but you don’t need to beat the Wizards to get to the Eastern finals.I did not cherry pick, i looked at every game against the top Eastern teams.In 9 games, he had two good games, two fair games, and five awful games.

    Why am I wrong to look at how he performs against the top teams in the conference? What did I miss in doing that?

    Either you think it’s too small of a statistical sample or you don’t. If 35 games is too small for you, that’s fine and perfectly reasonable. But you can’t then turn around and assign any value or relationship to a nine game sample — playoff teams or not.

  125. DRed

    Thomas B.: No, they don’t always get better. Sometimes they peak right where they are, sometimes they flame out.You think all the 23 years old who came into the NBA and didnt make it were cut becasue they all got better? Seriously.Your upside is just wishful thinking.It might turn out to be true but you have no way to know whether it will.It is a guess that he will get better.A lot of people never develop a left, or learn to run an offense.There is no way to say for sure that Lin will get better.You are just invested in him so you hope that he will.That’s why you excuse away all the awful games as just a fluke.Lucky for you he only played in 35 games.It would be harder to excuse away more awful games or an awful showing in the playoffs. But since that didnt happen, you can just tell yourself that it could not have.Lucky you.

    In general, NBA players peak in their late mid/late 20s. That’s a fact. Yes, there are always exceptions. You’re arguing it was wise of us to gamble on Lin being an exception, which doesn’t make a lot of sense. He was good in college. He was good in the D-league. He was good in the NBA. All the available evidence we have suggests he’s going to be a at least a solid NBA player. Doesn’t mean he will, of course, but it’s the smarter bet.

  126. ephus

    Three questions that I would like to put to Glen Grunwald, if I thought I could get a candid answer:

    1. Starting next year (when the graduated rates take effect), is there any circumstance where the Knicks will exceed the salary cap by $20 million or more?

    If the Knicks have established a hard-and-fast rule that they will not exceed the luxury tax by $20 million (or some other #), that may be foolish, but it would explain the flip-flop on Lin as something other than a tantrum by Dolan. It also would mean that JR Smith is not going to get a full MLE after next year.

    2. Are the Knicks willing to go over the tax line four years in a row and face the repeater tax?

    If the Knicks are not willing to face the “repeater” tax rates, that means they have to stay under the tax threshold for two seasons in a row starting in 2015-16. I do not see Carmelo Anthony sticking around at age 31 for a rebuilding.

    3. Where were you in Las Vegas on a Saturday night while the Rockets were trying to serve you the Lin offer sheet?

    The mind boggles at the possibilities.

  127. JK47

    Let’s see a list of all the players who had a .140 or better WS/48 season at age 23, in at least 800 minutes, DIDN’T GET INJURED, then became busts in the NBA.

    I look forward to seeing this list.

  128. max fisher-cohen

    Grymm: Really, what did we have in Lin?

    We gave up a prospect who in only 1,200 minutes put up better numbers than many other stars in the NBA did in their first 1,200 minutes, such as Steve Nash (WS/48 .047 in his rookie year), Chauncey Billups (WS/48 .065 in his rookie year), Chris Paul, Derrick Rose (WS/48 of .078 in his rookie year).

    Hell, we had two other great PGs enter the league last year: Rubio and Irving. In significantly fewer minutes, Lin put up better numbers than both.

    Has god foretold that he will be a star? No. But the numbers say there is a great chance.

    Beyond that, Lin was undeniably an asset, which we gave away for nothing.

  129. Caleb

    Thomas B.: No, they don’t always get better. Sometimes they peak right where they are, sometimes they flame out.You think all the 23 years old who came into the NBA and didnt make it were cut becasue they all got better? Seriously.Your upside is just wishful thinking.It might turn out to be true but you have no way to know whether it will.It is a guess that he will get better.A lot of people never develop a left, or learn to run an offense.There is no way to say for sure that Lin will get better.You are just invested in him so you hope that he will.That’s why you excuse away all the awful games as just a fluke.Lucky for you he only played in 35 games.It would be harder to excuse away more awful games or an awful showing in the playoffs. But since that didnt happen, you can just tell yourself that it could not have.Lucky you.

    I don’t dismiss awful games as a fluke; if you only have a 30-game sample the only sensible thing is to evaluate the 30-game sample, not the best or the worst or vs. this or that team. Based on that, if Lin plays exactly like he did for 30 games – good bad and ugly – he’s better than Felton ever was. And it is much more likely that a raw, 23-year-old player will get better, vs. staying the same or getting worse.

    If he were coming off an injury like Shump’s I’d think harder about the odds.

  130. Frank

    JK47:
    Let’s see a list of all the players who had a .140 or better WS/48 season at age 23, in at least 800 minutes, DIDN’T GET INJURED, then became busts in the NBA.

    I look forward to seeing this list.

    This isn’t exactly what you were asking for, but the list of players that averaged 19/8/4 AND played more than 3 games that season is:

    1) CP3
    2) Nash
    3) Baron Davis
    4) Russell Westbrook
    5) Rod Strickland
    6) Gary Payton
    7) Jeremy Lin

    http://bkref.com/tiny/SK5oY

  131. JK47

    Here are 10 players with the closest WS/48 scores to Lin at age 23:

    Kerry Kittles .144
    Jack Sikma .143
    Alvin Robertson .143
    Carmelo Anthony .140
    Larry Johnson .139
    Brandon Roy .139
    Rodney McCray .137
    Hersey Hawkins .135
    Shareef Abdur-Rahim .132
    Curtis Rowe .132

    Kerry Kittles was a pretty nice player until he got hurt. Jack Sikma was a seven-time all-star. Alvin Robertson was a four-time all-star. We all know Carmelo Anthony and Larry Johnson. Brandon Roy was a brilliant player until his injury. Rodney McCray had a solid ten-year career and made the all-defensive team twice. Hersey Hawkins was an awesome player. Shareef Abdur-Rahim never became a star but did have a long, productive career. Curtis Rowe was probably the least successful player on this list but was an eight-year rotation player.

  132. Robert Silverman

    johnlocke:
    You’re gonna have to change your avatar bro… =)

    Fixed. I think this psychotic-looking rage face (still from a play I was in) is the right avatar for the current state of the Knicks, as it were.

  133. Thomas B.

    JK47:
    Here are 10 players with the closest WS/48 scores to Lin at age 23:

    Kerry Kittles .144
    Jack Sikma .143
    Alvin Robertson .143
    Carmelo Anthony .140
    Larry Johnson .139
    Brandon Roy .139
    Rodney McCray .137
    Hersey Hawkins .135
    Shareef Abdur-Rahim .132
    Curtis Rowe .132

    Kerry Kittles was a pretty nice player until he got hurt.Jack Sikma was a seven-time all-star.Alvin Robertson was a four-time all-star.We all know Carmelo Anthony and Larry Johnson.Brandon Roy was a brilliant player until his injury.Rodney McCray had a solid ten-year career and made the all-defensive team twice.Hersey Hawkins was an awesome player.Shareef Abdur-Rahim never became a star but did have a long, productive career.Curtis Rowe was probably the least successful player on this list but was an eight-year rotation player.

    Was that for 35 games as well or did they play a full season? Also, did those guys play any good games against good teams? I’m sure they played a few bad games, but did most to all of them come against good teams? Just wondering.

  134. ephus

    thenamestsam:
    I was hoping someone better at this cap stuff (ephus?) could lay out what the situation would have been if we lost the Bird Rights ruling. My understanding at the time was that we would have been limited to Lin (full mid-level), a mini midlevel guy, JR and then minimum guys. I think I’d rather have that then what we ended up with. Is that the actual alternative that we missed out on?

    Without showing all of the math, if the Knicks had lost the Early Bird arbitration, they could not have brought back Novak (unless he agreed to a $2.0 million salary) and would have been capped at $74 million. They could have brought back Lin and two of Kidd, Camby and Felton.

  135. Thomas B.

    SimbaPuppy: Either you think it’s too small of a statistical sample or you don’t. If 35 games is too small for you, that’s fine and perfectly reasonable. But you can’t then turn around and assign any value or relationship to a nine game sample — playoff teams or not.

    I think how a player performs against the best teams in the conference is important. I understand that I am alone in that line of thinking. I get that there is no difference between playing agaionst the Wizards and playing against the Heat. Just because you play mostly poorly against the good teams doesnt mean that you are an overall bad player. I get that. I’m not saying he is an overall bad player. But really is the poor play against the good teams not a concern to anyone at all? I’m not even talking about him having sub-par games. I’m talking some of the worst games he ever played against these teams. He could not even muster a decent showing. That scares me. I know you all think it’s fine, but it bothers me.

  136. DRed

    In lightner news, the mountain Knicks have signed Anthony Randolph. I can’t wait until they run him and JaVale out at the same time.

  137. SimbaPuppy

    Thomas B.: I think how a player performs against the best teams in the conference is important. I understand that I am alone in that line of thinking.I get that there is no difference between playing agaionst the Wizards and playing against the Heat.Just because you play mostly poorly against the good teams doesnt mean that you are an overall bad player. I get that.I’m not saying he is an overall bad player. But really is the poor play against the good teams not a concern to anyone at all?I’m not even talking about him having sub-par games. I’m talking some of the worst games he ever played against these teams.He could not even muster a decent showing.That scares me.I know you all think it’s fine, but it bothers me.

    That argument makes tons of sense, but that wasn’t really my issue with your comment. It absolutely matters if a player consistently struggles against the best teams in the league. But for the same reason you think that 35 games isn’t enough to establish Lin as a good player, 9 games definitely isn’t enough to establish Lin as a player that will consistently struggle against the top teams.

    And just as a side note. Are there examples of players who have consistently played well against average to below average teams while struggling against the top teams? I don’t think it’s that hard to fake being a good baseball player for 35 games but I do think that it’s near impossible to fake being good at basketball for that long against ANY nba team.

  138. johnlocke

    Nice. Where’s Doug these days? he’s gonna have to change his too!

    Robert Silverman: Fixed. I think this psychotic-looking rage face (still from a play I was in) is the right avatar for the current state of the Knicks, as it were.

  139. Thomas B.

    DRed:
    In lightner news, the mountain Knicks have signed Anthony Randolph.I can’t wait until they run him and JaVale out at the same time.

    Ah Anthony Randolph boy that brings back memories. Most of the word “upside” being thrown about. I notice that at 22 Randolph put up the about the same numbers as he did at 20. He hasn’t improved much over the years. I’m sure that 2012 will be his break out season, he’ll be 23 and as we know it can only go up from there.

  140. Thomas B.

    SimbaPuppy: That argument makes tons of sense, but that wasn’t really my issue with your comment. It absolutely matters if a player consistently struggles against the best teams in the league. But for the same reason you think that 35 games isn’t enough to establish Lin as a good player, 9 games definitely isn’t enough to establish Lin as a player that will consistently struggle against the top teams.

    And just as a side note. Are there examples of players who have consistently played well against average to below average teams while struggling against the top teams? I don’t think it’s that hard to fake being a good baseball player for 35 games but I do think that it’s near impossible to fake being good at basketball for that long against ANY nba team.

    I agree. 35 games–27 getting significant minutes–is not enough to say he is good or bad. I’m not even anti-Lin. And I know I sound like I am. Really I am anti overracting to not having Lin. I think most people here are overracting. You don’t even really know what you lost, you can’t know becasue as we all agree the sample is too small. So why are so many folks so upset? I’d much rather have this pity party next April when we can look back on all this and no for sure what we either lost or dodged.

    I’m going to stop becaause I hate the way I’m starting to sound. I jsut don’t want you guys jumping off a bridge over this. That’s all. Just trying to give a little perspective.

    Sorry if I’m coming off like a trollish jerk.

  141. New Guy

    Thomas B.: Ah Anthony Randolph boy that brings back memories. Most of the word “upside” being thrown about.I notice that at 22 Randolph put up the about the same numbers as he did at 20. He hasn’t improved much over the years.I’m sure that 2012 will be his break out season, he’ll be 23 and as we know it can only go up from there.

    Hold up. You’re talking about the application of upside to players that have never produced.

    Lin’s upside was demonstrated and there is evidence of it. In his case, it’s the use of downside that is as silly as the use of upside is in Randolph’s case.

    If Lin, like Randolph, is producing the same numbers in two years, we’re going to look awfully stupid.

  142. Thomas B.

    New Guy: Hold up.You’re talking about the application of upside to players that have never produced.

    Lin’s upside was demonstrated and there is evidence of it.In his case, it’s the use of downside that is as silly as the use of upside is in Randolph’s case.

    If Lin, like Randolph, is producing the same numbers in two years, we’re going to look awfully stupid.

    The point is that he was supposed to keep getting better, so far he has not shown any sign of improving. Before we got him in the David Lee trade all the talk here was about upside and potential. I was one fo the few folks to say “Hey, aren’t you worried about how poorly this guy shots and his awful shot selection?” I was told that young players learn to shoot better in time and that I didn’t know anything about basketball.

    Well Randolph didnt get any better in that area. I do not think Lin is as good as he has shown in the sample size that is too small to care about. I think the real Lin is an average NBA player on offense and a huge liability in terms of turnovers and defense. Two years later I am right about Randolph. Let’s look at lin after two full seasons and see what he is.

  143. DRed

    Thomas B.: The point is that he was supposed to keep getting better, so far he has not shown any sign of improving.Before we got him in the David Lee trade all the talk here was about upside and potential.I was one fo the few folks to say “Hey, aren’t you worried about how poorly this guy shots and his awful shot selection?”I was told that young players learn to shoot better in time and that I didn’t know anything about basketball.

    Well Randolph didnt get any better in that area.I do not think Lin is as good as he has shown in the sample size that is too small to care about.I think the real Lin is an average NBA player on offense and a huge liability in terms of turnovers and defense.Two years later I am right about Randolph. Let’s look at lin after two full seasons and see what he is.

    You realize I can show you thousands of NBA players who improved after their age 23 season, right?

  144. Thomas B.

    DRed: You realize I can show you thousands of NBA players who improved after their age 23 season, right?

    I can show you thousands that did not. But for the purposes of this discussion, the only one that matters is Lin. So get at me in two years. J.A. Adande says:

    “The Knicks had a losing record and their two stars were injured when Lin took over. They had nothing to lose and no one to pull the ball away from him. In Houston there’s Kevin Martin … other than that it’s a bunch of rookies. There’s much more room for Lin to do his thing than if he were playing with Carmelo Anthony, Amare Stoudemire and J.R. Smith. When Lin had the show primarily to himself in February he averaged 20.9 points and shot 47 percent. When Anthony and Stoudemire were back full-time in March, Lin’s numbers dropped to 14.6 points per game and 41 percent shooting.”

    I’m pretty sure there are a lot of guys who can give us 14.6 points on 41 percent shooting. So losing that really isnt a big deal to me.

  145. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    I agree with you, Thomas, in that Lin is more about potential than production, although he was very good this year. Just not elite, which is what this team needs to win a playoff series.

    What’s frustrating is that we have Felton, who is not good, instead, when it made financial sense to sign Lin and then release him after year two. And I do think that while Lin is not Chris Paul, every little bit counts when you run the risk of playing Miami, Chicago, Indiana, or Boston in the first round. They made the wrong choice from a nostalgic/emotional point of view, and also from a basketball POV. And that’s enough to be mad about.

  146. Brian Cronin

    Sorry if I’m coming off like a trollish jerk.

    I forgive you.

    In all seriousness, you’re fine. I don’t think your argument is a good one, but I don’t think you’re coming off as a jerk.

  147. Degree_Absolute

    Thomas B.:

    I’m pretty sure there are a lot of guys who can give us 14.6 points on 41 percent shooting.So losing that really isnt a big deal to me.

    The biggest problem with losing Lin is that we don’t have a legit third scoring option. He proved (to me) that he could be THE guy for stretches. He was able to break down the D, penetrate and finish while maintaining pretty solid efficiency as the primary option, but he was also humble enough to defer to Amare and Melo when they returned. I am not sure if this squad has the personalities or skill set to make up for what Lin brought to the table.

    Felton is fat and wasn’t a good finisher when he wasn’t fat. Kidd can’t drive anymore on roads or the basketball court. Smith is in love with step back jump shots and I never really saw that he had the desire/ability to drive and finish (maybe this changes now that he is a starter?). Who besides Melo can actually get to rim in isolation?

  148. DRed

    Thomas, again, you’re arguing that Lin didn’t perform long enough for us to be confident about his ability, but then saying you know he’s not good because of his performance over an even smaller sample of games. It’s a ridiculous argument and you should give it up.

  149. dragonpavilion

    The whole situation just makes me SAD. Is Lin a starting PG in this league? Yes. Is he better than Ray Felton? Yes. Does he make the Knicks into a championship contender? Questionable. Does/Will he deserve 14.5mil in year 3, along with whatever luxury tax Dolan has to pay? Nobody knows.
    All I know is that Linsanity was the awesomest thing to happen to the Knicks in over a decade. It’s one thing to be a Knicks fan and jumping up and down and yelling when something great happens. It’s a whole other thing when it seemed like the whole world was doing it with you. When this guy made a play everybody was going nuts. When was the last time everybody’s wife/girlfriend can even name a Knick player? Linsanity was awesome and Dolan took it away from us.

  150. thenamestsam

    Degree_Absolute: The biggest problem with losing Lin is that we don’t have a legit third scoring option.He proved (to me) that he could be THE guy for stretches.He was able to break down the D, penetrate and finish while maintaining pretty solid efficiency as the primary option, but he was also humble enough to defer to Amare and Melo when they returned.I am not sure if this squad has the personalities or skill set to make up for what Lin brought to the table.

    Felton is fat and wasn’t a good finisher when he wasn’t fat.Kidd can’t drive anymore on roads or the basketball court.Smith is in love with step back jump shots and I never really saw that he had the desire/ability to drive and finish (maybe this changes now that he is a starter?).Who besides Melo can actually get to rim in isolation?

    I couldn’t agree more with this. In the wake of the loss to Miami it seemed obvious and was highlighted numerous times (Ruru in particular was harping on this) that we needed more shot creation. With the team we put out there against Miami Melo is almost forced to jack up some awful shots because there are too many guys out there who can’t create any space either for themselves or for others (if you’re a Berri disciple who doesn’t believe in that spare me the rant, I’ve heard it. Just skip this post). However we haven’t solved this problem at all. If Felton is in shape and playing well he can be a penetrator, especially in PnR, but that’s a big, big if. Otherwise we have a group of “real” PGs but it’s hard for me to see how they can alleviate the lack of dynamism that plagued our playoff offense. I fear that letting Lin go means we’re going to be watching a ton of Iso-Melo next year.

  151. johnlocke

    This. Dolan should have just payed him bro.

    http://mashable.com/2012/07/18/jeremy-lin-that-i-used-to-know-parody/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+Mashable+(Mashable)

    Degree_Absolute: The biggest problem with losing Lin is that we don’t have a legit third scoring option.He proved (to me) that he could be THE guy for stretches.He was able to break down the D, penetrate and finish while maintaining pretty solid efficiency as the primary option, but he was also humble enough to defer to Amare and Melo when they returned.I am not sure if this squad has the personalities or skill set to make up for what Lin brought to the table.

    Felton is fat and wasn’t a good finisher when he wasn’t fat.Kidd can’t drive anymore on roads or the basketball court.Smith is in love with step back jump shots and I never really saw that he had the desire/ability to drive and finish (maybe this changes now that he is a starter?).Who besides Melo can actually get to rim in isolation?

  152. johnlocke

    Dude, did you not see how depressed he was. I can easily answer these for you.
    1. This was Dolan’s call and he was pissed at Lin. Yes, we will exceed the cap, but only for loyal players.

    2. Yes, we’re paying JR, he shot 30% in the playoffs, but he’s a loyal player

    3. After or before I was drowning myself in vodka shots, after Dolan told me and I quote: “I’m not paying that fucking kid $15M, what an ungrateful prick. Get the fat guy from Portland on the phone..now!”

    That’s it, mystery solved.

    ephus:
    Three questions that I would like to put to Glen Grunwald, if I thought I could get a candid answer:

    1.Starting next year (when the graduated rates take effect), is there any circumstance where the Knicks will exceed the salary cap by $20 million or more?

    If the Knicks have established a hard-and-fast rule that they will not exceed the luxury tax by $20 million (or some other #), that may be foolish, but it would explain the flip-flop on Lin as something other than a tantrum by Dolan.It also would mean that JR Smith is not going to get a full MLE after next year.

    2.Are the Knicks willing to go over the tax line four years in a row and face the repeater tax?

    If the Knicks are not willing to face the “repeater” tax rates, that means they have to stay under the tax threshold for two seasons in a row starting in 2015-16.I do not see Carmelo Anthony sticking around at age 31 for a rebuilding.

    3.Where were you in Las Vegas on a Saturday night while the Rockets were trying to serve you the Lin offer sheet?

    The mind boggles at the possibilities.

  153. Z

    ruruland: Did JR just take less than what he probably could have received in the open market to come back to NY????????????

    Is that what Lin did?

    Maybe Lin is mad the Knicks didn’t invite HIS brother to summer league.

  154. bobneptune

    errkgolub: And I thought I was asinine. I respect your opinion, but I think it is a little naive to say that Dolan trumped all other Knicks executives and stock holders with a say, on the sole argument of “I am angry at Lin and Morey”

    Dolan is dumb yes, but that reasoning is just silly.

    I guess you were unaware of Dolan’s machinations around the Melo deal, right?

  155. Brian Cronin

    Yeah, we already saw Dolan specifically overrule his GM and his coach in the Melo deal, so why would it be surprising to see him do it here? Of course, as Kevin notes in his piece, it is Dolan’s money, so he really can do whatever he wants. Just that what he wanted to do in this instance hurt his basketball team.

  156. bobneptune

    Thomas B.: I can show you thousands that did not. But for the purposes of this discussion, the only one that matters is Lin. So get at me in two years.J.A. Adande says:

    “The Knicks had a losing record and their two stars were injured when Lin took over. They had nothing to lose and no one to pull the ball away from him. In Houston there’s Kevin Martin … other than that it’s a bunch of rookies. There’s much more room for Lin to do his thing than if he were playing with Carmelo Anthony, Amare Stoudemire and J.R. Smith. When Lin had the show primarily to himself in February he averaged 20.9 points and shot 47 percent. When Anthony and Stoudemire were back full-time in March, Lin’s numbers dropped to 14.6 points per game and 41 percent shooting.”

    I’m pretty sure there are a lot of guys who can give us 14.6 points on 41 percent shooting.So losing that really isnt a big deal to me.

    I just love how the CAA infatuated press @espn always neglect to mention Lin was playing on an injured knee much of the time when his performance “declined”

  157. Thomas B.

    bobneptune: I just love how the CAA infatuated press @espn always neglect to mention Lin was playing on an injured knee much of the time when his performance “declined”

    Yep. Injured knee as a rookie too. Funny how an injured knee only flares up against the best teams inthe East. Excuses Excuses Excuses.

  158. Thomas B.

    DRed:
    Thomas, again, you’re arguing that Lin didn’t perform long enough for us to be confident about his ability, but then saying you know he’s not good because of his performance over an even smaller sample of games.It’s a ridiculous argument and you should give it up.

    Please learn to read. It will make things so much easier. I said several times, that we don’t know if he is good or bad. So without that knowledge there is no need to go crazy over losing what you don’t know. Personally I do think the real Lin is closer to an average point, not close to a star player. I’m not losing my mind over an average point.

  159. DRed

    Thomas B.: Please learn to read. It will make things so much easier. I said several times, that we don’t know if he is good or bad. So without that knowledge there is no need to go crazy over losing what you don’t know.Personally I do think the real Lin is closer to an average point, not close to a star player.I’m not losing my mind over an average point.

    Again, we do have a lot of evidence that suggests he’ll be good. His college career, his time in the D-league, and his NBA career all suggest he’s a good point guard. Yes, he had some bad games against good teams, but he also had good games against Indiana, Chicago, Dallas, San Antonio, Atlanta and the Lakers-those are all good teams.

  160. Ben R

    Thomas B – Lin performed quite well against good teams. Lin played playoff teams in 13 of the 25 games he started. The Knicks were 7-6 verses playoff teams and 8-4 verses non-playoff teams when Lin was the starter.

    Lin’s stats per 36 in games he started against play off teams:
    19.5 pts 6.9 asts 3.9 rebs 2.1 stls 4.6 tos 54.1% TS%

    Lin’s stats per 36 in games he started against non-playoff teams:
    19.0 pts 9.6 asts 3.9 rebs 2.1 stls 5.4 tos 56.2% TS%

    Other than assists Lin’s stats were actually very similar verses playoff teams and non-playoff teams. Can we please put to bed the Lin is bad verses good competition please.

  161. 2FOR18

    Degree_Absolute: Yeah I don’t buy that.If people were going back and forth about intangibles, I could get on board the “mystical argument” express.Speaking of intangibles, Doris from Rego Park, RIP.

    That’s sad. I was a Benigno die hard and she was on every night. Jerome from Manhattan has disappeared.

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