Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Tuesday, December 23, 2014

How Many Wins Will the Knicks Have at the End of the Season?

Going into the All Star Break, the Knicks are on pace to win 24 games. So how will they do down the stretch? Can they improve on their first half, or will they tailspin even more?

{democracy:18}

153 comments on “How Many Wins Will the Knicks Have at the End of the Season?

  1. jon abbey

    looks like I won the preseason version of this, I think I had the lowest prediction at 31 wins.

    at 15-37 with 30 games left, I’ll go with 22-60 to “top” the Larry Brown edition.

  2. John

    I say 20-62….being worse than Larry B.’s year…..and vindicating Larry Brown’s professional opinion that the Knicks players suck.

    Larry was an idiot the way he handled business, but you have to say, the man knows B-ball…Isiah can only play B-ball…hence the poor basketball I.Q of this team.

    Dolan has to fire Isiah after the All Star game and Herb will ride out this atrocious season….

  3. Brendan

    The snarky answer is “not enough”, but… I’ll say a trade shakes things up, the team briefly rallies, and ends up winning 28 games. Not enough to be respectable, too many to have a decent draft pick, and just about par for the course under Zeke.

  4. jimmyp

    They’ll avoid 60 losses because IT is caving to all of the national criticism of the basketball and starting to give Lee his minutes.

    Haven’t been able to watch a game yet where the other team’s announcers or analysts don’t discuss why Lee and Balkman aren’t on the floor more.

    IT this week saying that Lee is becoming a very good player (while in reality he’s been very good for 2+ years) is merely IT positioning his past stupidity.

    Curry sitting will start to light a fire under him…we’re going to see a more active Curry the last 30 games. Starbury is a memory, not a distraction.

    They’ll go 12-18.

  5. Sam

    I was all set to say that I liked the Knicks to never win a basketball game again, but then I took a look at it the remaining schedule and it really isn’t very tough. The schedule looks as if it would play to the Knicks tendency to get “hot” for brief stretches. I think they’ll go on just enough of a run to mess with their chances in the lottery. I would guess they end with 26-28 wins.

  6. Ben R

    I think there will be a major shake up after the all-star break. Lee will be starting whether becausew of a trade or because of benching Randolph or Curry. Also I think Balkman will get even more minutes. Becasue of this I would guess we go close to .500 the rest of the way. 28-30 wins would be my estimate.

  7. Thomas B.

    Should the vote tool not read “24 or greater” and “24 or fewer?” The terms greater and less are generally used when speaking of things that cannot be readily quantified. For example, Mardy Collins has far less talent than Nate Robinson. As the term talent cannot be quantified in numerical terms, it is proper to use the word less. Mardu Collins has made fewer field goals than Nate Robinson. Field goals can be readily quantified in numbers, as such the word fewer is proper. As wins can be quantified as a numerical value, it is proper to say fewer rather than less.

    Yes, I sound smart but I cant spell or type worth a damn. That evens things out.

    I vote for 23 wins, barring a trade, or a freak accident that kills everyone at the All-Star game.

  8. Thomas B.

    Terms MORE or less are used when talking about things that cannot be readily quantified as a numerical value. My mistake. See I told you I only sound smart.

  9. Hudson River

    I’m rooting against the Knicks for the rest of the season, I want Derrick Rose or Micheal Beasley (Or in Wilbon’s words “Micheal Beastly) or Jerryd Bayless or maybe DeAndre Jordan.

    Please pingpong balls, treat us well.

  10. dave crockett

    I’d be shocked if Bayless leaves Arizona after only one season. Beasley and Rose are one and done.

  11. caleb

    If we pick up a second pick in the mid- or late- 1st, what do you think of DJ White?

    I’ve seen enough hibbert, thabeet is so incredibly raw, I was watching brook lopez today… White looks o much better than all of them. Wa it just the 2 games I saw?

    Of course if we don’t snag rose, a lawson or collison or augustin might be a better idea with our next pick.

    Dave – is it really farfetched for bayless to come out? I know those arizona guys tend to stick around but he’d be in the lottery for sure. He won’t be tempted?

  12. Thomas B.

    There is a restrospective on TV about the 2001 NBA All-Star game. A great game in which Allen Iverson and Stephon Marbury lead the East back from a 21 point deficit in the third quarter. Boy, Steph sure looks different than the guy I saw in the white Nets Jersey in 2001. That was also the last time I saw a Knick play in an All-Star game. Houston and Sprewell were reserves on that team.

    Sacramento just traded bibby to ATL. A good trade for the Hawks, as they gave up three players they dont need. Sheldin Williams was a mistake on this team and Horford makes Williams very expendable.

    This could signal the “Kings Fire Sale” no reasonable offer will be refused as we try to lose as many games as we can. Perhaps we can pick up Artest cheap. I know Artest for Q wont work, but maybe Artest for Rose and Collins. Money works and Sacto will need a defensive minded back court player. Rose’s contract expires next year. Why not?

    Move Randolph to Denver for Martin and a first rounder. Hope you get a top 3 pick, take a versitile defensive player with the Denver pick, and continue to shed salary.

    Next year you could have…
    Martin
    Lee
    Artest
    Crawford
    Rose?
    ——-
    Balkman
    Robinson
    Curry
    Chandler
    Marbury
    Jeffries

    With a competent coach, you could win 40 using that rotation.

    It’s Saturday, yes I have been drinking.

  13. Thomas B.

    Caleb,

    Didnt Arenas leave Arizona after two years? Bayless has been compared to Gilbert, i dont see why Bayless would’nt leave early as well. Bibby didnt stay all four either, did he? I dont think its far fetched for any player projected in the top 8 to at least put his name in the draft. If he has good workouts then there is great chance to stay. Bayless coming out of highschool was as highly regarded as Monta Ellis three years ago. Bayless, unlike Ellis is prohibited from entering the draft out of high school. Monta was a 2nd round pick but after a year of play at the college level, Bayless should be a first round lock. If he is considered a lottery lock, then he has to leave now. I agree that it is not far fetched at all.

  14. Ray

    Man oh man…how many wins?Just like everyone else I dont want them to win much because I value our draft position. I would love one of those power point guards coming out this year. I think this year is the year of the point guard. I really cant see the Knicks winning more than 8….for heavens sake!! I hope for a shake up..bring over Kleiza and whoever else is in that package. Id rather a pick though. We’ll see what happens. Ping pongs a plenty please.

  15. caleb

    If atlanta was willing to do a trade like that for bibby, it makes me a lot more optimistic we can turn marbury into something next year – he’s got as much left as bibby and will only cost teams a few months salary, rather than 1 1/2 years.

    Oh yeah, if the kings don’t want artest (or are in fire sale mod), why would they pay malik rose for a year when they could just let ron-ron walk?

  16. WIzzle

    Hollinger projects a record of 26-56. That would mean that they would have to win 11 more games. Since their is only 30 games left, thats about 33% of their games they are expected to win. Thats 1/3 of their games! They can barely sting 2 wins together. Right now their record is 15-37 with a winning percentage of 28%. Now someone said they have an easier schedule, but when you have this type of horrible chemistry, bottom basement moral, a coach/GM who has no idea how to put a game plan together or mix n match his roster to get the most of their talents, then 33% seems pretty optimistic. Another thing is that since they have these great 8 game losing streaks. Even if they have a few 7 game losing streaks, that adds up to about 4 wins as someone said before.

    I cannot wait until this seasons over. I’ll be generous, my prediction, 20-22 wins, 10th spot in the balls and Isiah getting the boot.

    Hopefully our best player mails in, Crawford, and lose more.

  17. Brian Cronin

    Wow, did you see that dunk by Green?

    Dude blew out the candle on a cupcake AS he dunked the ball!

    Of course, the judges didn’t see it, so he only got 2 9s, 2 10s and an 8!

    Just like how Howard got screwed last year when no one saw him place a sticker at the top of the backboard. Meanwhile, Howard got 5 10s this year for doing a dunk Igoudala did a couple of years ago.

  18. WIzzle

    No, I mean crawford should mail it in. Lee is a good player, but the average gm/coach/scout and Isiah would take crawford over lee for playing time.

  19. Brian Cronin

    average gm/coach/scout and Isiah would take crawford over lee for playing time.

    Well, they play different positions, so “playing time” is a weird way to judge it.

    Strictly talent, no way an average gm takes Crawford over Lee at this point and time.

  20. WIzzle

    We know, since we are fans of the team that we would take lee over anyone else. But the avg gm or coach stills perceives Crawford as our best/ go to guy we have. Now you want to tell me, lee is our go to guy then you are making sense.

  21. jon abbey

    “If atlanta was willing to do a trade like that for bibby, it makes me a lot more optimistic we can turn marbury into something next year – he’s got as much left as bibby”

    bad comparison, my man. first of all, they got nothing for him except expiring contracts of mediocrities, unless you think Shelden Williams is actually worth something. secondly, Bibby at least has the potential to be a leader, he was a key guy on a team that came close to winning the title for a couple of seasons. Marbury is a cancer and an idiot, plus a turnstile on D. if any team trades for him, it will purely be for longer contracts to open up cap space, a la Kwame Brown to Memphis, not anything to do with whatever’s left of his playing ability.

  22. Thomas B.

    Caleb,

    I think Artest’s contract is at his option so they could end up paying him if he does not opt out. Also, Rose can be moved this off season to a team looking for an expiring contract so Sacto wouldnt have to pay him.

    But you are right, sacto gets three expiring deals for Bibby. They clearly want to clear space to sign K-Mart II and perhaps a free agent.

    Frankly, Rose and Collins seemed to be the deal closest to what Sacto seems to want. The next shortest deal on the team is Jones but you need to add 3 million to the deal to match artests salary.

    How about Rose, Jones, and Collins to Sacto for Artest and Abdur-Rahim? Sacto gets expiring contract, a young player, and a year less on salary on rose compared to Abdur-Rahim. Knicks get Artest for fire sale price.

  23. Spider Cider

    Artest will opt out, almost certainly. You don’t think anyone else in the league will pay him more than the 7 mil he’s slated to make?

  24. Ray

    Wow. Beasley dropped 40 and 13 yesterday. What a beast that kid is going to be. If the Knicks do pull off a number of wins I would go with Thabeet who is blocking shots like hes possessed with the spirit of a Georgetown Mutumbo. I was listening to AI on the radio and he was talking abut how he has the luxury of gambling on defense because he knows if his man gets by him that Camby would be there to contest the shot. The Knicks have no one to contest shots. Thats what we need…that nasty defender in the middle. Lets get some ping pong balls.

  25. JVG

    I think that Eddy Curry could become that tenacious defender in the paint that the Knicks desperately need–if only they could put a little cupcake on their rim like Gerald Green did during the All-Star slam dunk contest yesterday.

  26. dave crockett

    “Dave – is it really farfetched for bayless to come out? I know those arizona guys tend to stick around but he’d be in the lottery for sure. He won’t be tempted?”

    Caleb – I think he’ll definitely be tempted. But, trying not to see this solely through the eyes of an alum, here’s why I feel confident he’ll stay.

    Bayless has intimated in the Tucson papers that he wants to stay and play for former Raps coach and Knicks assistant Kevin O’Neill–of course they all say that. What impressed me though is that the kid knows he needs to get bigger, become a better defender and learn to run an offense.

    I think Bayless will stay because he’ll have a shot next year at being a top eight selection solely by putting in work at the gym and getting better defensively–all stuff that is under his control. Right now I think he’s mid-late lottery. Now I doubt Bayless stays past a second year, but I’d be really surprised if he came out this June. “Shocked” was probably a bit of hyperbole, but definitely surprised.

  27. dave crockett

    “Didnt Arenas leave Arizona after two years? “Bayless has been compared to Gilbert, i dont see why Bayless would’nt leave early as well. Bibby didnt stay all four either, did he? […]Bayless should be a first round lock. If he is considered a lottery lock, then he has to leave now. I agree that it is not far fetched at all.”

    Bayless has a shot at being a top 5 pick in ’09 if he can prove that he can handle PG duties full time and defend. That’s his big incentive to stay one extra year. Ellis is a good comparison, as both are outstanding scorers but not natural PGs. Unless Bayless is targeted by a team like GS he’s not prepared yet to run an NBA offense.

    The big difference right now between Bayless and Bibby, who only stayed a single season, is the national title run. At this point in their respective careers Bayless is better than Bibby. The ’97 Arizona title team finished 5th in their league, not unlike what this Arizona team is looking at. Had that run not taken place it’s very likely Bibby stays for another season.

  28. Thomas B.

    dave c.

    Re: Bayless

    All good points. I did not consider Bayless’ desire to solidify himself as a point. A good point is far more desirable than a good scoring guard. Bayless would fit well in GS.

    Natural points like Chris Paul can come out a year early becuase they dont need to learn the point on the job. If that is what Bayless wants then he should stay. However, the point is that it is not far fetched for him to leave. It may not be the best move but it is something that could happen. He is good enough to go top 13.

    Lets agree that it could go either way.

  29. caleb

    I don’t know anything about Bayless… maybe he’s one of those guys who likes school. But strictly from a business decision standpoint, looks like decent odds he’d come out. If he stays — what’s the ceiling? Is he in the running for a top-3 pick next year? hmmm… I’d say he’s already in the second half of the lottery, and a few more games like yesterday on national TV, or a good tournament… he could move to the 5-6-7 range…

    Dave, if he’s there at #5, is he a good pick for the Knicks?

    Don’t worry, he can work on his PG skills and defense just as well in the NBA…

    btw for my money Beasley is far and away the #1 pick…

  30. caleb

    Thomas, I don’t think you’ve thought through this Artest idea, from Sacramento’s POV…

    if he opts out and walks, like everyone expects, that’s a lot better for them than paying Malik Rose $7 million next year for no reason at all.

    If Artest shifts gears and stays, don’t you think they’d rather pay HIM $7 million, than Malik Rose? Malik and Collins don’t even belong in the NBA, 15-man rosters and all.

  31. Ray

    I would take a second rounder only if it was some kind of European player with a high ceiling. Other than that i would take some superior scouting to get good value out of that pick. Kleiza and a 1st rounds pick for Zach and Rose. I dont think the money would match on that deal but something close to it would be nice.

  32. Capt. Merlin

    for any who are staking claims for Michael Beasley’s imminent pro dominance, I see something more like Derrick Coleman V.2.0

  33. WIzzle

    Who said anything about next year? I just want the misery to stop until October. When October comes then we can see whats up.

  34. jon abbey

    then just stop paying attention, spring training is almost upon us, or follow almost any other team in the league, as most of them are decidedly more entertaining (I recommend GS currently, Monta Ellis has to be seen to be believed).

    my point is that I see no reason to believe for sure that we’re at or near rock bottom here. when things actually get better, then I’ll believe it.

  35. WIzzle

    man talk about negative. Ok fine your entitled to see things your way and I am entitled to see things my way. Simple.

  36. Spider Cider

    “spring training is almost upon us”

    Shudder. Nine long months of baseball highlights. I hate the fact that the only 2 sports I really dig have virtually concurrent seasons.

  37. Knicks poster

    No, it is called being a jerk. You need to stop being so arrogant and condescending with other people.

  38. Thomas B.

    Caleb,

    Re: Trade with Sacto.

    I came up with that trade by looking at what Sacto got for bibby. The theme seems to be expiring contracts (Lue, Johnson) and 2006 draft picks that are not playing anywhere near their expected level (Shelden Williams). Other than Jones and Morris, the Knicks have no expiring deals. Those deals do not match Artest’s 7 million. Since I dont want mr know-it-all to post a link to the NBA’s CBA and trade rules, I came up with the next best thing, a 2009 expiring contract that matches Artest’s salary. As for a near worthless 2006 draft pick, who better than Mardy?

    I fashioned my deal in a manner consistent with the bibby deal. I did think it through. Please note: I never said Sacto should make that deal or that it is a good deal. It is the best deal that can be made that is consistent with the standard Sacto established when they traded Bibby.

    Also it is a deal that keeps me from parting with my 3 fav knicks Lee, Balkman, Robinson. You know if Sacto wasn’t set with K-mart, they might consider Artest for Crawford. JC isnt grossly overpaid for what he can do. JC and Jones for Artest and Thomas?

  39. Thomas B.

    Knicks poster:

    Don’t take him too seriously. He feels it is his duty to “correct” what he sees as wrong. That;s just who he is and what he does.

    To be fair, Isiah is under contract until Dolan fires him. IF Dolan fires him it will be the best decision he has made since going to rehab. I agree that with Isiah’s departure depending on one of two things 1) Death (according to Isiah) and 2) Dolan making a smart move, there is a real possibility that Isiah will be on the bench next year.

    Furthermore, we are not promised a top five pick.
    1) Boston ended up 5th and they had the worst record.
    2) The Knicks could still go 24-6 over the next thirty (you cant hear it but I am laughing my canastas off).
    3) Isiah could still trade our pick away.

    KP, I understand what you are saying. We should have a top five and Isiah should be fired, but how many things have gone right for the Knick fans in the last 9 years? Not many.

    So the “jerk” has a point. But it is annoying, not so much what he says but how (and how often) he says it.

    Anyway, live and let live. Agree to disagree.

  40. jon abbey

    call it whatever you want, but I see no realistic reason for any kind of hope here. if Dolan goes, if Isiah goes (and his replacement/s isn’t another bozo), if we actually draft a stud, those are all legit reasons for optimism. as of now, none of those is close to guaranteed. we’re all dealing with the wreckage of our beloved franchise in our own way, I personally see no need for blind optimism under the circumstances, especially with TweedleDolan and TweedleWeasel still making all of the decisions. your mileage may vary, just my perspective.

    and if you don’t like my opinions, feel free to argue with those, but my personality isn’t going to change. if Mike thinks I’m a problem, he’ll ban me, and in the meantime, maybe we can try to stick to hoops.

    two non-Knicks notes:

    people were making fun of Kenny Smith here recently, and I tepidly defended him. but those people were right, I think he’s getting stupider week by week, maybe too much Barkley contact.

    the All-Star uniforms were an embarrassment, whoever signed off on different colors on each side should be fired tomorrow. I know that makes the viewing experience worse (there were times I didn’t know if an outlet pass was triggering the fast break or stolen by the other team, as one of many examples), I’d think it would also impact the playing experience, much harder to just go on instinct passing the ball, for instance. I didn’t even bother watching the second half, looking forward to real hoops coming back Tuesday (mostly the Western Conference).

  41. jon abbey

    and just so you don’t think I’m all negativity, the dunk contest was thoroughly entertaining (on DVR at least), Dwight Howard taking the expression “throwing it down” quite literally.

  42. Ben R

    Jon – Until we trade away Randolph or fire Isiah I do not believe we are at rock bottom either.

    At this point I would be surprised if Dolan fires Isiah. If he was going to he would have done when media and public outcry were at their peak. I think he really feels Isiah can turn it around. I think if Isiah gets fired it won’t be until around game 20 next season if we have less than 6 wins.

    As for the pick, I think Lee and Balkman will continue to play alot and we will be better to finish the season. I predicted over ten wins to finish the season and that would take us out of top five and maybe out of top 7. We could still win the lottery but honestly unless Isiah trades our pick I find that highly unlikely that we will win.

    My only hope is that Isiah can find a taker for Randolph. In fact that Denver trade was like a dream. Kleiza is a promising young player, Hunter is a solid backup defensive big, Najera is an expiring contract and Smith is one of the best offensive players in the league. I would even throw our pick in, top 7 protected to seal the deal.

  43. jon abbey

    there was a fair amount of talk here last spring about drafting Nick Fazekas, and now Hollinger says that he’s the most likely candidate for Dallas to release when they “sign” Van Horn. being that he’s white, Isiah will never actually go after him, but I wonder if it’d make sense to sign him and release Mardy Collins, or even Randolph Morris, who you’d have to think is gone at the end of the season anyway by mutual agreement. just an idea…

  44. Thomas B.

    Jon,

    Isiah will never sign Fazekas because he is white? What exactly is your basis for this statement? Please don’t say because he traded VanHorn, EVERYBODY trades VanHorn! He was traded today and he has been retired two years. Dan Dicau you say? Yeah we drpped the ball on that one. I saw him at the All Star gsme, selling T-Shirts in section 436.

    You were right about those uniforms, I had no clue ehat was going on. I quit watching after the first because i was sick of think every assist was a turnover.

  45. Artie

    Its too early to say we’ve hit rock bottom. Depends on:
    – what does Isaih do from here out
    – if he is fired , who replaces him? Do you really trust Dolans judgement to hire the right guy to replace him?
    – does the new guy want to make a big splash rather than rebuild the right way, and just become an extension of Isaih.

    Jon Abbey is being realistic. After years of incompetence and a horrendous roster, there’s multiple moves that need to be made. One good draft pick is part of the solution but much more needs to be done. Its like if your house is falling apart, and you replace all the windows, its a nice start, but you still have a roof that leaks, basement that floods, faulty wiring and no insulation. In the Knicks case, optimisim begins when theres a comfort level that the right management is in place. If you’re making a judgement based on drafting Beasley, or whomever, Isaih can make a good draft pick and then not use the guy properly as he has consistently demonstrated. Or follow that up with another bad trade.
    Sorry for being a black cloud. I really want this team to do well.

  46. Caleb

    Thomas, is is true the Kings are looking for expiring deals..

    Thing is, Artest IS an expiring deal. They’re not going to trade him for a longer contract AND worse player, i.e. Rose.

  47. Caleb

    p.s. Fazekas would be a nice pickup. No huge expectations, but for that bargain-basement price, a much better prospect than Morris… And I don’t know why he’d be gung-ho to re-sign with Dallas, considering he hasn’t played a minute all year.

    As to general optimism/pessimism… if IT were fired, I would be reasonably optimistic. The roster isn’t that awful. A coach who simply gave minutes to the best players would probably make this a 35+ win team (starting from scratch, that is, not starting at 14-36). Add a high draft pick, another pick next year… plus, even though we’re two years from cap flexibility, all the key players are young so if we do nothing at all, roster-wise, we should improve.

    All in all, it’s not necessarily that bleak. Unfortunately, we have a madman at the controls, who could trade those valuable assets at any time for Nene & Kenyon Martin… pushing our hope horizon ever-further into the distance.

  48. Caleb

    The other reason for hope… I think it’s a very attractive job for a GM. Aside from the draw of New York, you have an owner/boss who takes a completely hands-off approach – talk about job security – and who’s willing to spend whatever it takes, to build the roster.

    That doesn’t mean Dolan will choose wisely, but if he ever fires IT (and you have to think it’s gonna happen, eventually)… he will be able to choose from the A-list candidates.

  49. Caleb

    About the Miami rumor… they had crossed my mind, but this “rumor” comes from Sam Smith.

    I don’t think he actually has any sources or calls anyone… just sits in his office and makes crap up. He should post here!

    From that same column:
    “With Stephon Marbury entering the last season of his contract, the Knicks actually would be under the salary cap—my computer threatened to self-destruct if I ever wrote that before now—after next season with Curry off their ledger..”

    His math is off by about $40 million…

  50. retropkid

    I think the Nix have 11 wins left in them…mostly because Zeke will then spin that as momentum….I am getting ready for the worst case…Zeke spewing his spins and the Nix being less advantaged in the draft…

    If Nets pull off the trade now — I’ll be rooting for them in Brooklyn….young talent getting stocked up…and Bruce Ratner has alot fewer flaws than Dolan…did you read about Bruce showing up at a season tix holder event — showed some class there.

  51. retropkid

    “Kings just waived a guy who’s averaging 16 rebounds per 40… almost 2 blocks… 23 years old. ”

    He makes Balkman look like Mark Price from the free throw line!

  52. Caleb

    “He makes Balkman look like Mark Price from the free throw line!”

    What a gloom n doomer! How about — this guy is the second coming of Shaq!

  53. jon abbey

    Thomas B, not sure why I should give you a cordial direct answer, but Isiah’s dislike for white players and foreign players is pretty well known, we went into it in depth here last year, I know. David Lee is only on the team because someone else on the staff insisted he be drafted, I forget the specifics. so yeah, I’m calling him a racist with no specific examples (besides the famous “he’d be just another player if he was black” comment about Larry Bird).

  54. Caleb

    I dunno, he was always big pals with Laimbeer… and didn’t seem to have any problem bringing in Doleac (of course he traded him, par for the course)… I don’t have any reason to think he’s a racist; but deinitely old-school in a way that hurts the team — not realizing or appreciating the style of game that Europeans have brought to the league.

  55. jon abbey

    “didn’t seem to have any problem bringing in Doleac (of course he traded him, par for the course)”

    Doleac was signed by Layden in August 2002, Isiah was hired in December 2003, and Doleac was dealt as a throw in in the Tim Thomas deal three months later, February 2004, despite the fact that he was very good on the pick and roll with Marbury.

  56. Caleb

    sorry, obviously you’re right about Doleac.

    Just because I am feeling argumentative, I’ll take the bait… I think that while it was a foolish, reckless and offensive thing to say, the ticket-holder comment didn’t really have anything to do with race. I took it as IT being frustrated, saying, in essence, “I don’t care what the rich, corporate, dilettante fans think… they don’t know how to run a basketball team; I do. I’m not going to keep my finger in the wind.”

    It’s too easy to expound on his stubbornness, ego and inflated opinion of himself… but I think that was the true sentiment of the comment, not “I hate white people.”

  57. jon abbey

    yeah, I don’t think that the trial comments are totally on topic, but I do think that he is biased against white and foreign players, I argued that here last year well before the trial (not sure if there’s an easy way to pull up/link to that discussion, my search attempts on this site don’t usually work very well).

  58. retropkid

    ““He makes Balkman look like Mark Price from the free throw line!”

    What a gloom n doomer! How about — this guy is the second coming of Shaq!”

    I thought Eddie Curry was supposed to be the second coming of Shaq!

    As much as I hate Zeke, I think he is more misogynist than racist…agree with Caleb that he is more or less damning the rich fans who didn’t grow up fighting for their piece of the pie…they just happen to be mostly white.

    That said, I suspect Zeke is more comfortable with what he knows…which isn’t Europeans, clearly.

  59. aklvand

    wait i herd from my buddy tht we traded our second rounder to portland- is tht true, tht would b bad becuase the way were going tht pick cud b first round talent

  60. flitzy

    Anybody see this on the Daily Dime on ESPN a few days ago?

    “The Knicks didn’t block a single shot in Wednesday’s loss at Boston. It was the ninth time this season that the Knicks put up a goose egg in the blocked-shots column; no other NBA team has more than two such games. With an average of only 2.35 per game, New York is on pace to block the fewest shots for any team over the course of a full season since the league started tracking that category in 1973-74.”

    Thank God they have Curry and Zach patrolling the paint.

  61. dave crockett

    Re: Bayless

    I’ve seen four games this season and bits of others. (Unfortunately, I got stuck with the Clemson/NC State yuck-fest this weekend. So I didn’t see Stanford. Thank you ABC regional coverage.)

    Positives – easily quantifiable stuff

    * efficient scoring: 66% TS on 85% FT and 45% 3pt; he’s getting to the line (FT/FG = 50.7) about twice as often as O.J. Mayo.

    Bayless is judicious with this 3’s (109 attempts). he quick/strong enough to blow by, take the bump, and finish–but he also has the two-dribble, pull-up mid-range shot.

    Positives – more subjective assessments

    * killer instinct: Arizona hasn’t been known for having players with that quality, fairly or unfairly, but you know it when you see it with this kid; he’s been the leader virtually from the start.

    * other stuff – I wouldn’t say he’s a “plus” defender but he’s not bad; he’s certainly been willing to defend for Kevin O’Neill; for a guy who scores a lot he’s not a ball-stopper–doesn’t over-dribble or take a lot of “heat check” shots.

    Negatives –

    * size/position – he’s 6’3, but less than 200#; he’s stronger than he is quick, yet he’s not Marbury/Francis/Kidd strong; right now his athleticism is carrying him–he’s plenty explosive but not a cloud-piercing athlete; he’s got to get stronger to keep up with pro PGs, and SGs are about out of the question.

    * skills – he’s by no means selfish, but is learning how to facilitate other guys really for the first time; above average ball-handler, not great–no left hand at all. ucla wouldn’t let him go right, and collison (whom i LOVE) took him completely out of his game.

    i think bayless stays one more year–but Caleb and Thomas B if this kid keeps putting up 30+ on 66% TS i reserve the right to change my mind :)

    one thing that may work on his decision is who else declares. we “know” that rose and mayo are one-year guys. gordon–i don’t know, but if Sampson is fired or disciplined that may hasten his departure. the 2009 class is considered far weaker i think.

    one guy knicks fans should have on their radar screen is brook lopez.

  62. dave crockett

    off-topic on the J-Kidd trade:

    http://blog.nj.com/netsblast/

    d’alessandro reports that although nothing will happen today, antoine wright is definitely involved in the deal.

    not that this is earth-shattering news. just thought i’d share :)

  63. Caleb

    Dave, you just described a pretty terrific player.

    I’ve been less impressed by Lopez but he was pretty good against U of A this weekend, and it’s all relative. I don’t think he’s a top-5 guy, but late in the lottery, sure, why not?

    If the Knicks don’t get a top 2 pick (or maybe even top 1), I’d be sorely tempted to try and trade down – take multiple picks, even if the additional picks are next year or beyond. It just seems like there’s better value in the mid- 1st round. I’m also a big fan of Collison… also like Lawson, and now Bayless is on the radar… or a guy like Lopez. But none of them strike me as top-5 talent. Not sure about Eric Gordon, either.

  64. jon abbey

    “If the Knicks don’t get a top 2 pick (or maybe even top 1), I’d be sorely tempted to try and trade down – take multiple picks, even if the additional picks are next year or beyond. It just seems like there’s better value in the mid- 1st round.”

    I think the issue with this is roster spots, unless we can somehow offload some of the many guaranteed deals we have with awful players. this is less of a factor if the picks are in future years, but again, if Isiah is still in charge, he’s not exactly known for his patience and long-term thinking.

  65. Caleb

    Jon, always count on Isiah to do the wrong thing.

    But a sane GM wouldn’t worry bout roster space.

    – I wouldn’t sign Fred Jones to more than 2 years, and even then he’d be more valuable to a contender. Any longer deal just screws up our 2010-2011 cap space.

    – We can clear another roster spot just by letting Mardy Collins walk.

    – I’d rather have 1st round talent than re-sign Randolph Morris…

    – …and, c’mon, isn’t it time to put Jerome James out of his misery? I understand not wanting to eat the contract, but he hasn’t played a single minute this year. You don’t even need the deadweight for a future salary-balancing deal — that’s what Q is for!

    – next year, Malik and Steph come off the cap.

    So, if we somehow swung deals for multiple picks, young players or Fazekas-esque free agents, it’s pretty painless to clear 4 roster spots (Collins, Jones, Morris & James)… and another 2 next year.

  66. mason

    ” -I wouldn’t sign Fred Jones to more than 2 years, and even then he’d be more valuable to a contender. Any longer deal just screws up our 2010-2011 cap space. ”

    you would re-sign fred jones? y?

    on a side note the trade checker on ESPN is killing me…heres my new fantasy:

    Miami trades =j. williams and r. davis and Marion
    to NY = Q and Curry and Marbury…

    we would be a few years ahead in rebuilding

  67. Caleb

    I’m not gung-ho to re-sign Fred Jones, but our backcourt sucks and he gives you a bit of everything… solid D, good finisher, low-mistake guy, can play the point in a pinch. I think he’d be a rotation player on a few contending teams… but I wouldn’t pay more than $2-3 million, and (for the reason I said before) wouldn’t make it more than 2 years. In other words, I could take him or leave him.

  68. mason

    i could see that but considering we’re far from contending and dont need role players his roster spot also has value.

  69. Caleb

    “So, if we somehow swung deals for multiple picks, young players or Fazekas-esque free agents, it’s pretty painless to clear 4 roster spots (Collins, Jones, Morris & James)… and another 2 next year.”

  70. Z

    “you would re-sign fred jones?”

    No way. Besides the fact that he helps us in no long term way, he’s an Isiah guy. We need to purge the roster of this failed regime. Send them all to the Gulag…

  71. Ken "The Animal" Bannister

    All this Curry to Miami blather is the result of the “fertile” (for lack of a better word) imagination of Sam Smith – a columnist that makes Vescey look like Edward R. Murrow.

    Then again, call up The Crown Prince of Armani and hair gel and see if He’ll Do Curry for Davis and Smush Parker (or Williams straight up). Heck, be ballsy and see if the Knicks could dump Curry AND Jeffries for Davis and Williams.

    Then you buyout Davis and Williams – let them (like the rest of the league) go west (young man) to a contender.

    Then you give Randolph Morris, Renaldo Balkman and Wilson Chandler all the PT they can handle.

    (and see if Denver is foolish/desperate enough to do a Smith/Najera/Kleiza for Randolph deal)

  72. Ken "The Animal" Bannister

    And here’s an out-of-left field idea:

    Name Malik Rose coach for the rest of the season

  73. Eureka

    I’ve figured it out! The All-Star weekend helped me see Isiah’s master plan to save the NBAl. You see, Isiah tries to collect ALL the bad contracts and all the malcontents he can find (crossing my fingers for Artest) so that the other teams in the league can shine. Call it the “Concentrated Evil” Theory. How many teams have at least one player worth watching, at least one player who has a chance for greatness? Sure, there are other stinker teams in the league, but this weekend just reminded me of the tremendous talent other fans get to watch each night.

    Yeah, I like Lee as a darn good sixth man or a good fifth option starter. It wouldn’t surprise me at all to see him on a winning team some day. But who else? Balkman’s fun and all, but Q, Eddy, Z-Bo, Crawford, Starbury, Nate, JJ, and the rest? I’d bet anything that they play on losers the rest of their days in the league.

    This season is WORSE than 2005-2006. I can’t take it!

  74. Z

    “With Stephon Marbury entering the last season of his contract, the Knicks actually would be under the salary cap—my computer threatened to self-destruct if I ever wrote that before now—after next season with Curry off their ledger..”

    “His math is off by about $40 million…”

    Caleb– I agree Smith is probably making the rumors up, but I think his math is right. Without Curry in the mix the Knicks would be committed to about $45 million (if they don’t resign guys) in the summer of 2009. Factoring in draft picks, that would in fact be under the cap.

  75. Gregson

    Anyone have a clue what IT’s email address is? I’d like to start pounding him with “SUBJECT: PLAY BALKMAN 30 MINUTES!!” emails.

    I’ve tried ithomas@msg.com and ithomas@knicks.com — the latter bounces back but not the former. I know this is a waste of time but there’s a semblance of satisfaction here.

  76. caleb

    Z,
    Randolph, curry, crawford, jeffries, Q and james put us well over 50m… And that’s if we trade lee, balkman and nate for expiring contracts, sell our draft pick this year and next, don’t fill out the roster, etc… Chk out hoopshype or shamsports…

  77. caleb

    But you’re right, 40m is an exaggeration… Prob more like 15 or 20 over, depending what lee and nate get for extensions, and assuiming we don’t hand out any midlevel deals or resign fred jones.

    I think if we somehow managed to move zach AND curry by next summer (for expiring deals), we could be a few million under… Sell a draft pick or trade crawford for cap space, or sell a draft pick and we’d be in business.

    But 2010 seems a more realistic goal, and a better crop of FAs…

  78. Ray

    If the Knicks got under that cap that would be amazing. Hey, if Riley thinks he can work on Eddy than so be it but hes an animal that if you dont feed he starts acting funny. By all means please take him away. Something has gotta happen for us by Thursday…i just hope its a lot of salary dumping and picking up some draft picks so we can get under the cap and make some moves. I think David Stern was given some info about Zeke being tossed. He must know something. It has to get better …just not this year. Ping Pong.

  79. JustFoundOUt

    I’m of the opinion that clearly ’09 cap space is almost an unalloyed negative, at least with the current management. My worry is that, with all of the contract space coming off already in 09 (marbury, rose etc.), Isaiah might try to trade it next year when they represent expiring contracts. Making a trade now that gets us more contracts that expire in 09 (when there’s no way we can be under the cap) only increases the likelihood that the isaiah/dolan will make lousy trades that lock us up in ’10 and beyond.

    Even among the non-crazy posts about roster changes, there is one basic assumption that pervades many posts. Rather than assessing the deals taking as granted that Isaiah will be the GM afterwards, they work from the assumption “If I were GM, I would….” I think a more reasonable way to talk about potential moves is “If I were GM for a day (and Isaiah or whoever else Dolan brought in was GM following that day).”

    WIth the assumption “If GM for only one day, I think what I would try to do is to do anything I can to trade one of our 3 4-year-remaining contracts (Jeffries, Randolph and Crawford) for contracts with a three duration (ending in ’10). To sweeten that admittedly unsavory pot, I would be willing to toss in players with contracts ending in 08 or 09 (basically the whole roster except for Curry and Q Rich) if it made sense. If I could make any such moves (and I’m not sure we could), this would result in a bulge in contracts that expire in ’10. Given the allure of that free agent class, I would think that even IT could wait until the summer rather than deal them for nonsense.

  80. Frank O.

    I have to say, I don’t know how you guys do it. You all keep churning away at your keyboards about this team, sorry as it is, and hopeless as it seems while Isiah is on the rudder and Dolan finances the thing.

    I can’t fault anyone for getting negative. I know I got negative a long time ago with this franchise. There have been few good moments to hold onto. And sometimes, those feel like mere straws…I like the Bricks’ young players, but I don’t think Zeke will commit to them.

    But I have no hope that a good trade will be done. First, we are in a terrible position for making trades. Second, no way Dolan lets a guy he plans to fire make any kind of big move given he has one foot out the door. Lastly, I’m not sure trading is smart, unless the Bricks are dumping salary, and that doesn’t seem plausible.

    jon abbey has stepped on me a few times, sometimes deserved, sometimes not. But he’s part of the color on this board, and he’s knowledgeable about the Bricks and the rest of the league. He certainly doesn’t need anyone to say he can or can’t. As he said, if Mike decides he’s gone too far, Mike will make a move. I think that’s where it needs to stay.

    His tone is rough sometimes, but tone on blogs is a dodgy thing.

    And those that don’t like the negativity, you need to look around at some of the other Bricks blogs out there. Mike K. keeps clearly the most civil and informed blogs around. The threats, the smack, the insults, and other crap you read elsewhere is simply low-life tripe that I could care less reading.
    Stupidity is boring. I rarely find stupidity here. And, for the most part, there is reasoned debate, lively discussion, and some interesting ideas here. Some of which have come from jon abbey.

    I sometime wish Isiah were reading.

    No one needs anyone else to defend them here. For the most part, we’re all grown ups here.

    And if someone gets annoyed at someone else, it helps to remember this is basketball, or more accurately, this is chatter about basketball. No more and no less.

    I’m contributing less because I have less to say about what is going on. I found myself to be repetitive. And unless something resounding happens, I have a feeling I’ll be reading and not contributing much to this.

    At least the blog is entertaining because Bricks basketball just isn’t right now.

  81. Z

    “Randolph, curry, crawford, jeffries, Q and james put us well over 50m…”

    Okay, Caleb– I admit I’ve always been a terrible math student, but I simply don’t come up with the same number as you. Of the players committed to in the summer of 2009, my equation reads: $16 mil (ZR) + $9.3 (Q) + $9.4 (JC) + $6.6 (JJ1) + $6.3 (JJ2) = $47.6 million.

    Sure there are Lee and Robinson to consider, plus the two top ten draft picks that need to be signed, but what Smith says is basically true: if the Knicks trade Curry, they could be under the cap in the summer of 2009.

    I don’t think this should necessarily be the goal, but I don’t understand the flaw in both Smith’s math and mine.

  82. caleb

    Your math is right… I was including curry on top of that 47.6.

    But even without him…

    47.6 + @5 for the draft picks, + lee, balk, nate, chandler + 3 more guys to fill out the roster…

    Theoretically you might be able to get under but it’s not worth jettisoning all those prospects and picks just so we can sign andrew bogut or 30 y/o shawn marion. That’s why I look to the following year.

    But technically, smith is right… Just misleading in my view.

  83. mason

    anyone else think that Isiah will put together a win streak down the stretch. just while everyone else is tanking he will be ‘gelling’ trying to save face and cost us 3-4 spots in the draft order.

    it sucks to be rooting against the Knicks to win but we dont have a choice, isiah has got to go.

  84. jon abbey

    “I just saw that Fox sports graded all the NBA teams and we got a D-!!! Chicago and Miami got F’s. This is the best I’ve felt all year.

    Or does it mean we haven’t bottomed out yet?”

    I didn’t look at the story, but I’d guess it just means that those other teams are way below general preseason expectations, the Knicks sucking is less surprising.

  85. Mulligan

    I read that Portland will have something like 20 players on their roster next season… we should help them out with that problem. They own the rights to two young point guards, Koponen and Fernandez who are tearing it up in Europe right now. A deal of Rose and Channing Frye’s trade exception for Pryzbilla (sp?) and those two pg’s works.

  86. Funky

    How exactly does Isiah go about “tanking” the season for draft picks. Play the starters? The guy clearly has no idea which players deserve minutes. Maybe if he does the complete opposite of what he thinks is right, the Knicks will start winning.

  87. Frank O.

    Isiah is quoted in this morning’s papers saying the Zach and Curry experiment is far from over. He also suggested a good point guard might just fix everything.

    It sounds a bit like history repeating itself.

    Buckle your seat belts, boys. We’re in for an interesting few months…

    I think bottom comes when the season is over and Zeke’s team hits a historically low point for wins.

    Of course, the sked isn’t that tough from now on, but this team finds ways to lose. Especially with the Zach, Eddy, Q & Crawford show.

    I mean, after all, they just haven’t gelled yet. This could still happen…:)

  88. Caleb

    Dave C,

    just fyi I see that Chad Ford has Bayless at #6 on his big board… behind Rose & Gordon, but ahead of Mayo, Budinger, Lawson and Augustin. He has Darren Collison down at #24, which would seem like a steal.

    At Draft Express they have Bayless all the way up at #3….

  89. jon abbey

    “How exactly does Isiah go about “tanking” the season for draft picks. Play the starters? The guy clearly has no idea which players deserve minutes. Maybe if he does the complete opposite of what he thinks is right, the Knicks will start winning.”

    heh, post of the day.

  90. JVG

    “He also suggested a good point guard might just fix everything….
    Buckle your seat belts, boys. We’re in for an interesting few months…”

    Next up in Isiah’s series of brillant moves: Isiah makes himself the Bricks’ starting point guard!

    Isiah could become the first President of Basketball Operations/Coach/Player in NBA history.

  91. Thomas B.

    “Thomas B, not sure why I should give you a cordial direct answer”

    I do not know why you feel that way, aside from a joke or two (which I retracted); I have not been impolite when addressing you. It was not I that called you a jerk last week. I actually tried to defend you, to the extent that is possible.

    “I’m calling him a racist with no specific examples (besides the famous “he’d be just another player if he was black” comment about Larry Bird).”

    I see the term racist used on this site quite often and I have reached the conclusion that few posters actually know what the terms racist and racism mean. Here, let me try to help.

    Racism
    –noun 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
    2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
    3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

    So using that as the standard for racist, your examples do not support Isaiah as a racist. It is not racist to point out that a talented Caucasian basketball player, such as Larry Bird, would not get the same level of media attention, if he were African-American. Recognition that a person is of a different race does not make a person racist. Acknowledgement that some people do not get the recognition they deserve due to their race is not racist.

    Isaiah has not stated that any race is superior to any other. Isaiah has not stated that he believes the differences amount people determine their ability or fitness for success. Please correct me if I am wrong. I know you will, since that is what you joined this site to do, correct the opinions of others.

    I earned a B.A. (with honors) in American History and World History from Rutgers. I actually learned what racism truly looks like.

    Jim Crow laws were racist.
    Slavery was racist.
    Japanese interment camps were racist.
    Anti-Japanese sentiment during WWII was racist.
    Segregated schools systems were (are) racist.
    Nazism was racist.
    British Colonialism in India and Africa was racist.

    When you use the same term to describe Isaiah Thomas’ statement about the media and fans giving more love to Larry Bird than a similarly talented African-American player that is used to describe some of the most heinous events in human history (and to brazenly do so without offering justification) you do a huge disservice to the men and women who have suffered through true racism.

    I say this in the most cordial way that I can muster: I truly pity you if your understanding of the world is as shallow as it seems to be.

    Ok, back to the Knicks. I say let Fred Jones move on unless you can keep him at a near rookie rate. He is a nice player but not a difference maker. His future with the team should depend on what we do with the draft. We draft a point, then we don’t need Jones. Actually, we could get find back court help with great upside in the DL or in Europe.

  92. jon abbey

    “I say this in the most cordial way that I can muster: I truly pity you if your understanding of the world is as shallow as it seems to be.”

    Jesus Christ, dude, I singlehandedly run a worldwide and world-renowned business, interacting with people from all over the world every day. I pity you if you think a BA from Rutgers entitles you to be condescending. (FWIW, I minored in history at Columbia, not that I think a chimp couldn’t do the same).

    “Isaiah has not stated that any race is superior to any other. Isaiah has not stated that he believes the differences amount people determine their ability or fitness for success. Please correct me if I am wrong.”

    you need to make public statements to be a racist? ludicrous.

    ” I know you will, since that is what you joined this site to do, correct the opinions of others.”

    ok, fuck you, my man. I was here before you, and I’ll most likely be here after you. I came here to talk about the Knicks, not have some semi-clueless self-proclaimed historian take constant shots at me.

  93. Thomas B.

    Jon,

    “there was also the whole “I don’t care about white people” part of the sexual harassment trial.”

    I thought he said, in response to an inquiry about some season ticket holders, “I don’t give a phuck about those white people.” Again, that does not speak to superiority, inferiority, or an assumption about the people based on race. He did not care about the impact his decision would have on the people, he also acknowledged that they are white. It is inappropriate and unprofessional, but I don’t see it as racist.

  94. jon abbey

    and I honestly don’t care whether he’s being technically racist (I think he is) or simply biased: the bottom line is that I think Isiah isn’t interested in obtaining white or non-American players. I’m not saying this is a definitive policy: if Dallas offered Nowitzki for Randolph even up, I’m pretty sure even Isiah would do it. but in most cases, I believe that he’d prefer to stick with black American players. since the bulk of the best players are black Americans, this isn’t a huge issue usually, but I do think it’s true.

    back to actual news, Peter Vecsey reports today that “Contrary to a report, the Nuggets don’t have the slightest interest in obtaining Zach Randolph. Never did.” now there’s a shock.

  95. Renaldo Balkman's Agent

    “ok, fuck you, my man. I was here before you, and I’ll most likely be here after you. I came here to talk about the Knicks, not have some semi-clueless self-proclaimed historian take constant shots at me.”

    Heh- post of the day.

  96. Thomas B.

    Jon,

    You made the statement. I’m just asking you to defend it.

    No, you do not need to make a public statement to be a racist. However, in the absence of a public statement, I would think you should rely on private conversations and actions. I again ask you to provide support for your statement that Isiah is racist. Are you privy to the private thoughts and actions of Isiah? If so, has he gotten any good offers for Zach?

    Racist is a very serious charge. One that should not be wielded like your aforementioned chimp would a loaded gun.

    Self proclaimed historian? The B.A. from Rutgers kind of states that I am not a self-proclaimed historian. You could at least say I am a Rutgers proclaimed historian. A Rutgers B.A. is nothing to take lightly. Normally, to get a degree with that kind of credibility you have to study in Guatemala or Hatia.

    And here comes the foul language, the last resort of person that has exhausted the ability for refined, intellectual discourse. Bravo.

    I’m sorry if you feel I have taken constant shots at you. I have agreed with you on occassion, but my man, you are bit of a shot taker yourself. You shoot down plenty of posters with whom you do not agree, why I am not free to take a shot at you when I disagree with you?

    Oh and Congrats on the world-wide success. You must be one heck of a multi-tasker running a buisness and keeping constant vigil over this site. Kudos to you.

    P.S. FWIW, I aint mad at you and it aint personal.

  97. jon abbey

    yeah, I defended it as best I could, I’m sure there’s other examples I’m not thinking of (Caleb reminded me of Doleac, for instance). but this isn’t a court of law, I’m not trying to convince a jury of something, I’m merely stating my opinion. Isiah has been here four years and has seemingly never considered bringing on a foreign player, and has dumped every white American he’s had a chance, with the exception of Lee, who as I said I believe was somewhat forced upon him on draft day (again, we’ve covered this in depth in the past and I don’t recall all the specifics off the top of my head). do you (Thomas) really believe he’s entirely unbiased?

    also, as I said last year when we had this same discussion, I’m personally biased against most white American players, I think it’s extremely rare that they blossom into impact players and in almost every case, I’d prefer that my team stay away from drafting them. so that part of it isn’t a huge issue for me or some kind of crusade, but I do think it’s true and worth noting.

  98. Funky

    Regardless of Isiah’s beliefs about Whites, Mormons, the Incas, silicone breast implants, banana pudding, and quantum theory, I think we can all agree that he is a terrible GM, coach, and person.

    And really, isn’t that the core of what being a Knicks fan is all about?

    Come on guys, group hug!

  99. Thomas B.

    Jon,

    I am afraid of foreign players because of the way we were burned on Fredric Weiss. That guy is best known for catching Vince Carter’s salty emeralds during international play. Orlando was burned on Fran Vazquez (sp). It took Portland something like 7 years to get Sabonis (sp) to come to the U.S.

    Is Isaiah a choirboy? Hell Naw. Prejudiced? Probably.

    He strikes me as a person that sees what sociologists call white privilege.
    “Scholars associated with the legal studies field of Critical Race Theory have argued that whiteness or white racial status can be thought of as property, something of value owned by certain members of society.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege_(sociology)

    I think he is misguided in his attempts to counter balance white privilege. When he says “I don’t give a phuck about those white people.” I think he might be thinking “I’m not catering to people who have already enjoyed privilege, who are clearly wealthy, and have enjoyed so much already.” I think that is prejudiced because he assumes that these people have enjoyed nothing but privileges.

    His statement that he finds it more offensive when a white man calls a black woman a bitch than he would if a black man were to do the same. Says to me that he see an implicit statement of racial superiority when a white man calls a black woman bitch. Again, he assumes that race is a motivating factor in the white mans actions. I do not think this is the right approach to take. However, I hesitate to call him racist because it is such a serious charge, which applies to all his dealing with persons that do not share his race. Prejudiced and narrow-minded, yes. He is a bad coach too.

    I agree that he has not been fair or open minded during his tenure with the Knicks.

  100. mase

    “also, as I said last year when we had this same discussion, I’m personally biased against most white American players, I think it’s extremely rare that they blossom into impact players and in almost every case, I’d prefer that my team stay away from drafting them. so that part of it isn’t a huge issue for me or some kind of crusade, but I do think it’s true and worth noting.”

    huh!?!
    …black american players havent worked for the knicks either. In fact, arguably the Knicks best player is white!

  101. TDM

    Just to stir the pot a little:

    Jon, you forgot the little double-standard dinger Isiah came out with during the trial: “A white male calling a black female [a b*tch], that is wrong with me. I’m not taking that. I’m not accepting that. … That’s a problem for me.”

    Thomas B., how do Rush Limbaugh’s statements about the NFL and Donovan McNabb rate according to your criteria set forth above? Less offensive than saying Isiah is racist? More? Please explain, and show your work.

  102. Thomas B.

    “black american players havent worked for the knicks either.”

    Now just a minute there Mase. What about Renaldo Balkman and…uh..and..oh boy. Do you mean just recent Knicks? Oh, Gus Johnson he works for the Knicks.

  103. jon abbey

    Morrison and Redick both played four years in college, they’re both over 23, older than LeBron James.

    obviously there are plenty of busts from all countries, white, black and purple. I’m admitting this is a bias of my own, and yes, every case is obviously individually different, but I think overall there’s some truth there.

    then again, I’m not making personnel decisions in the league, or clearly I’d do my best to get past any of my own personal biases. I wish Isiah did the same, I don’t think that he does.

  104. mase

    just because they played 4 yrs. of college doesnt qualify them anymore than anyone else to be ‘busts’!

  105. jon abbey

    actually it does, they should be more developed after two years in the league at age 23. if they were straight out of high school and had been in the league for two years and were 19, I’d be less inclined to call them busts. as it is, I’m pretty comfortable with that assessment, definitely on Morrison.

  106. Thomas B.

    TDM,

    Are you asking about the following quote from Rush?

    “Sorry to say this, I don’t think he’s been that good from the get-go. I think what we’ve had here is a little social concern in the NFL. The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well. There is a little hope invested in McNabb, and he got a lot of credit for the performance of this team that he didn’t deserve. The defense carried this team.”

    If so, this does not fit my definition of racist. Rush did not state that McNabb as an African-American QB is inferior to a white QB. I think Rush tried to make the same point that Thomas did when he made the statement about Larry Bird.

    Rush’s point (my opinion) was that a white QB with the same stats as McNabb would not be elevated in the media the way McNabb has been. This is true to some extent. Take Danica Patrick’s career for example. If she was a fat bald guy who never won a race would we know who she is? Would “Dan” Patrick have endorsement deals? No. Would he be a celebrity presenter at an awards show? No. Would he be featured in the SI swimsuit edition? God, I hope not.

    Danica gets the media attention not for being the best at what she does. She gets attention for for being an anamoly in her sport, who is easy on the eyes to most men.

    Donavan McNabb has been an anomoly in a sport that historically features white QBs. The best QBs of all time are arguably Marino, Elway, P. Manning, Staubach, and Montana. That list is whiter than the original signers of the U.S. constitution (thank you Dennis Miller).

    McNabb, while a good quarterback, gets extra attention for being an diffrent from what we have historically seen in QBs. I dont think it is racist for Rush to point that out. The thing that works against Rush is that McNabb was a good QB on a team that has had success. Had McNabb played like Joey Harrington while continuing to enjoy the media love fest, then yeah he is clearly only get attention for being different.

    In my humble opinion, Rush’s statement are equal to Thomas’ Larry Bird comment.

  107. Thomas B.

    Mase,

    worked OUT for the Knicks, well that changes things. That leaves just Gus Johnson.

    I still like Balkman. Not bad for the 20th pick. I just wish we had taken a shot at Williams and taken Balkman at 29. Failing that, we could have bought the pick from the Suns. Hell they give away draft picks like they are pez.

  108. Mr. Black

    “A Rutgers B.A. is nothing to take lightly. Normally, to get a degree with that kind of credibility you have to study in Guatemala or Hatia.”

    I’m sure you meant “Haiti” but it was still funny. Even though I think you lifted that joke from Don Rickels.

  109. TDM

    Thomas B.,

    For what its worth, I’m glad to see that your application of your definition is consistent. I don’t know whether Isiah is a racist per se. However, I tend to agree with Jon’s opinion that Isiah has, at minimum, a bias against white players.

    Anyone for a round of Kumbaya?

  110. jon abbey

    yeah, that was just an age thing to try to point out that 23 isn’t so young in the NBA.

    anyway, again back to actual news. Chad Ford reports “Multiple sources say that Miami has interest in Eddy Curry. The Heat can offer Jason Williams’ expiring contract in a straight-up deal. ”

    hold your breath, people…

  111. Ken "The Animal" Bannister

    I proposed the Curry-Williams deal in the Boston game thread (straining shoulder patting myself on the back) and if Riles is interested for serious, well, I’ll dance a little jig of joy.

    Then again, trading Curry and not getting say Vince Carter (ugh) in return (as Chad Fraud suggests) would mean Isiah’s admitting he’d made a mistake, which is about as likely as say Dubya or Cheney admitting they made a mistake (or were outright torturers/criminals/befoulers of the Constitution..But I digress)

  112. Ken "The Animal" Bannister

    “If so, this does not fit my definition of racist. Rush did not state that McNabb as an African-American QB is inferior to a white QB. I think Rush tried to make the same point that Thomas did when he made the statement about Larry Bird.”

    Well, no. You’re wrong Thomas.

    Rush presumes that there is some vast media conspiracy to unfairly and unjustly overrate/elevate McNabb by the (so-called) Lefty Media. Aside from being wrong, it’s a lie. I’d say assuming that “The Media (of which Rush somehow seems to think he isn’t a member of) has higher standards for whites than blacks in terms of certain skills (e.g. the “intelligence” and/or “leadership” required to play QB) is racist. I could go on and on about the million ways that Limbaugh is a hack and an outright liar, but this isn’t the forum for that.

  113. Thomas B.

    TDM,

    There is no reason to hold Rush to a different standard than I hold Isiah. I try to focus on the context and content of what is spoken rather than focusing on the race of the speaker.
    ————

    Ken TAB,

    We are not talking about an issue of fact, such as the number of wins the Knicks had last year. If I were to state “the knicks won 43 games last year” I would be wrong. I shared my interpretation and opinion on a matter that is open to interpretation. As such, it is not proper to state that I am “wrong.” The proper thing to do is to say that you have a different opinion on the matter.

    Having said that, I don’t follow your arguement. Are you saying that Rush is wrong because the media actually does the inverse of what he claims? That the media actually places a higher standard on white QBs than black QBs?

    So, a white QB can’t get away with lacking the smarts to play the position but a black QB of comparable intellect can because a black player is not expected to be smart. Is that what you think the media does to white QBs?

    Interesting theory.

    I dont think any QB can survive if he isnt smart. I mean if Ryan Leaf was black would he still be playing ball? Doubtful. Ken, I am not in position to agree or disagree with you because i dont fully grasp your point. If you care to ellaborate, I would be happy to respond.

  114. Ken "The Animal" Bannister

    Like I said, this isn’t the forum to properly discuss this, but…

    It’s fairly simple. Limbaugh makes his statements based upon a false/faulty presumption – that the media “wants” black QB’s to succeed and therefore sets the bar lower in terms of expectations. It’s a lie. And by lying, Rush reveals himself to be the racist that he is.

    I’m not entirely sure how you failed to understand this the first time I said it, Rutgers. But since you can’t spell ‘elaborate’, I guess I should lower my expectations.

  115. Ken "The Animal" Bannister

    And only a right-wing schmuck would go around defending Limbaugh. So, Thomas, take your hateful rhetoric and lousy spelling/grammar over to the realgm forums where it’ll be appreciated properly

  116. Ken "The Animal" Bannister

    Thanks for the “Animal” photo, Jon. The only ones I could find are of his later years playing ball in Spain

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