Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Saturday, November 1, 2014

His Team, His Money

Basketball and big business are both complicated things and, when combined, can make for a full-fledged clusterfrack.  Rarely is this truer than in the brain of Jimmy Dolan, quarters so cavernous and labyrinthine that disgraced former GMs are able to burrow and hide for years beyond their useful lives, pulling strings and likely sexually harassing every passing neuron in a skirt.  Attempting to interpret the thought processes that govern such a place is futile; we will likely never know exactly why the Knicks refused to match the three-year, $25 million offer sheet that has landed Jeremy Lin in Houston.  How much of it was (misguided) strategy, how much was (misplaced) hubris, how much was (misallocated) dollars and cents?   It’s quite plausible that JD himself, Straight Shooter though he may be, isn’t even sure.

So where to begin on yet another day when our team has left us baffled, long on angst and short on optimism?  How angry to get at a decision that, while illogical, pales in comparison to at least a dozen others that have crippled the franchise worse than this one possibly could?  How much indignation to direct at an owner who, to his credit, never really hesitated to throw open his purse strings until yesterday?

Are we spoiled children whose team has never before balked at the financial implications of buying us the shiniest new toy that was willing to sign a contract?  Is Dolan just as fed up with the losing as we are and, as a result, has finally chosen to draw the line at paying tens of millions of dollars in 2014-15 for a point guard who still might be a glorified backup?  Does the fact that it’s his team and his money provide adequate justification for his decision?  Does he even need to hide behind the shoddy façade of “basketball reasons?”

Should we just shut up?

Basketball and big business are both complicated things.  But it’s important to remember that, in the NBA, the former enables the latter.  Without quality on the court, there is no quantity in the stands, in the ratings, in the financial statements.  If James Dolan wants to let a player walk, it’s his team, his money.  If he wants to forego a press conference and disseminate his reasoning through written statements, it’s his team, his money.  If he wants to filter slanderous rumors through loyal (and in many cases, family owned) media outlets, it’s his team, his money.   If he wants to create a professional environment where transparency and accountability are anathema, and where inflated and unreciprocated demands of player loyalty are cited whenever it’s expedient, it’s his team, his money.

It’s up to him to decide if that makes for good basketball.  It’s up to him to decide if that makes for good business.  And we have over a decade of results that speak for themselves.

Basketball and big business are both complicated things.  Just ask Jimmy Dolan, who’s still trying to figure out both.

150 comments on “His Team, His Money

  1. ww007

    I think the biggest problem I have with this move is that they did not bring in anyone to adequately replace Lin. I mean, they bring in Raymond freaking Felton (who looks to be about 500 pounds overweight) a way over-the-hill PG in Kidd, and a Euro player who has never played a game in the NBA at age 35. Plus we gave up Jeffries and a 2nd round pick for Felton!!! I mean wtf?? I mean I loved Kurt when he was on the Knicks before, but JJ is a much more versatile defender. And we already have Camby.

    I wrote this in my previous post, but I feel like everything good that’s happened this past season – the Linsanity, the miraculously favorable Bird’s Rights ruling – have all been for nothing. It’s going to be very hard to root for this team now, if I can at all

  2. formido

    I mean, can you imagine? Knicks lost Lin not even on a betrayal but a betrayal all made up in Dolan’s head! It’d be one thing if Dolan valued his ego over money, but it’s not even THAT defensible. Lin only ever got one offer sheet from Houston and zero from NY.

  3. knickfan92

    If you want to blame someone blame mike woodson. If he hadn’t opened his mouth saying that the knicks were going to match the first offer then lin probably would not have added more money to it. Its the equivalent of showing your hand before the game is set.

  4. ptmilo

    Actually, it is the money of MSG shareholders, of which economically Dolan is only a distinctly minority member. Your post should have been entitled: His Team, His Supervoting Stock, Someone Else’s Money.

  5. PrecociousNeophyte

    JR Smith retweeted an article saying the Knicks were not matching while sitting next to Dolan and Woodson yesterday afternoon.

    I don’t know how Ruru can defend a player has consistently shown a lack of character his entire career.

  6. max fisher-cohen

    It’s funny — most thought the idea of trading Lin for Nash was foolish, but would Phoenix have said no if we’d offered him straight off at the beginning of free agency?

    BTW, according to this tweet, Felton KNEW he was coming to New York on July 4th. I think Kidd signed on with NY on 7/11 — the organization probably knew he was coming days before that — which means that the Knicks probably had already decided against re-signing Lin at the point, before the “poison pill” contract was a reality.

    That possibility alone is disturbing, but if they really had made up their minds or had mostly made up their minds that Lin was gone, perhaps because he hadn’t “shown enough loyalty,” then the Knicks surely could have offered Phoenix Lin in a sign and trade, right?

  7. ephus

    max fisher-cohen: That possibility alone is disturbing, but if they really had made up their minds or had mostly made up their minds that Lin was gone, perhaps because he hadn’t “shown enough loyalty,” then the Knicks surely could have offered Phoenix Lin in a sign and trade, right?

    Sign and trade to the Suns would have been really difficult, because the Rockets were prepared to offer more. Why would Lin resign with the Knicks for 4/$24 million, even if the last year was a player option, when he could get 3/$25 million from Houston?

  8. johnno

    Stop blaming and trashing Dolan. Lin says that he really wanted to stay with the Knicks. I think that he’s full of crap. He acted like he wanted more than anything to play for the Rockets. If you want to blame someone, blame him and his agent. If he really wanted to be a Knick, he would be one. But he got greedy, overplayed his hand, and is now off to Houston. That’s his choice. I don’t begrudge him his money, but HE made the decision, so I really really don’t want to hear him whining that he wanted to be in New York, it was the best year of his life, he’ll never forget Knick fans… Seriously, I don’t want to hear it. And, ironically, he probably would have made much more money in New York off the court than he ever will in Houston. For a Harvard grad, he sure acted stupidly.

  9. Count de Pennies

    johnno: Stop blaming and trashing Dolan.

    That’s just cruel.

    As it is, we Knick fans have so very little to sustain us.

    If we were to stop blaming and trashing Dolan, what would we have left?

  10. PrecociousNeophyte

    Can someone name one other team that showed interest in JR Smith this summer?

  11. dsi

    knickfan92:
    If you want to blame someone blame mike woodson. If he hadn’t opened his mouth saying that the knicks were going to match the first offer then lin probably would not have added more money to it. Its the equivalent of showing your hand before the game is set.

    You’re right. It sure seems like the Knicks would have been better served by a silent Woody. Either that, or the team had already decided that his ceiling was “really good backup PG”, and Woody was part of a Dolan-led conspiracy to increase his market value. Which woud require a degree of street smarts that Dolan probably doesn’t possess.

  12. Brian Cronin

    Read this and tell me Alan Hahn hasn’t become an MSG shill. Very disappointing.

    I dunno, he argued for Lin all the way up until the decision was made. At that point, what good does it do for him to rip on his bosses? I can’t blame him for trying to spin it. Why piss your boss off for something that’s already done?

  13. PrecociousNeophyte

    That’s true. I can’t blame Alan for looking out for himself.

    Just very disappointing to lose one of the few objective guys covering the Knicks and I foolishly thought he was above this type of sourceless character attack based on his track record.

  14. nicos

    Player A, .526 TS%, 6.6% Rebound Rate, Assist % of 35, 21.1% Turnover Rate, 25.1 Usage.
    Player B, .524 TS%, 5.3% Rebound rate, Assist % of 37.3, 16.7 Turnover Rate, 22.6 Usage.

    Almost identical, except player B turns the ball over less and doesn’t shoot quite as much. In case you haven’t guessed, Player A is Lin post-Linsanity and player B is Raymond Felton as a Knick. Look, I wanted Lin re-signed as well but I’m surprised that so many people consider this so much worse than anything else that has happened over the last decade. Linsanity was the most fun I’ve had as a Knicks fan since ’99 and I do think he’ll improve but he’s not a guy I’d throw away 30+ years of fandom over.

  15. arthurprescott2

    nicos:
    Player A, .526 TS%, 6.6% Rebound Rate, Assist % of 35, 21.1% Turnover Rate, 25.1 Usage.
    Player B, .524 TS%, 5.3% Rebound rate, Assist % of 37.3, 16.7 Turnover Rate, 22.6 Usage.

    Almost identical, except player B turns the ball over less and doesn’t shoot quite as much.In case you haven’t guessed, Player A is Lin post-Linsanity and player B is Raymond Felton as a Knick.Look, I wanted Lin re-signed as well but I’m surprised that so many people consider this so much worse than anything else that has happened over the last decade.Linsanity was the most fun I’ve had as a Knicks fan since ’99 and I do think he’ll improve but he’s not a guy I’d throw away 30+ years of fandom over.

    We forget that post-Linsanity he was playing with an unknown at the time meniscus tear that hampered him. I think you should just average all 25 of his starts.

  16. Brian Cronin

    he’s not a guy I’d throw away 30+ years of fandom over.

    Hey, I’m totally on board with not giving up on the Knicks over this.

    It’s just one of many dumb decisions the team has made over the years.

  17. exel

    A little more relevant comparison of stats:

    Player A, .491 TS%, 4.6% Rebound Rate, Assist % of 33.3, 19.6% Turnover Rate, 20.8 Usage, .042 WS/48
    Player B, .552 TS%, 6.6% Rebound rate, Assist % of 41.0, 21.4 Turnover Rate, 28.1 Usage, .140 WS/48

    Pretty obvious that Player A is Felton and Player B is Lin. This from 2011-2012, which is a more relevant comparison.

  18. chrisk06811

    Here’s my question…..how much better is Houston because they got Lin? are they that much better? I think they still suck.

    I don’t know how anyone can stare at 1/2 a season and declare that he is flat out worth this $$. especially coming off knee surgery.

    And, I think Lin is full of shit.

    I still hate Dolan, but just for everything else. Anyone who hates or loves this decision should at least admit, it was NOT a no brainer.

  19. Shad0wF0x

    If you didn’t jump ship when the Shandon Anderson/Howard Eisley days started then I dunno how this can suddenly make people leave.

  20. johnno

    Or you can look at Lin’s last 15 games, after teams had a chance to scout him and game plan for him — 14 points, 6 assists and 3.8 turnovers per game, on 40.1% shooting and 31% 3 point shooting, which are decent, but hardly great, numbers. And don’t discount the fact that he’s a pretty bad one-on-one defender (or are you forgetting how many times the Knicks had Shumpert guarding the other team’s point guard because Lin couldn’t contain him). I think that Lin has the potential to be very good, but let’s not annoint him the second coming of Steve Nash quite yet. And, if you look at Felton’s numbers for the last 25 games of last year, they were much better than Lin’s last 15 games. And, by the way, the Knicks didn’t fall apart after Lin went down — they were 12-5 without him.

    exel: A little more relevant comparison of stats:Player A, .491 TS%, 4.6% Rebound Rate, Assist % of 33.3, 19.6% Turnover Rate, 20.8 Usage, .042 WS/48Player B, .552 TS%, 6.6% Rebound rate, Assist % of 41.0, 21.4 Turnover Rate, 28.1 Usage, .140 WS/48Pretty obvious that Player A is Felton and Player B is Lin. This from 2011-2012, which is a more relevant comparison.

  21. Brian Cronin

    A little more relevant comparison of stats:

    Player A, .491 TS%, 4.6% Rebound Rate, Assist % of 33.3, 19.6% Turnover Rate, 20.8 Usage, .042 WS/48
    Player B, .552 TS%, 6.6% Rebound rate, Assist % of 41.0, 21.4 Turnover Rate, 28.1 Usage, .140 WS/48

    Pretty obvious that Player A is Felton and Player B is Lin. This from 2011-2012, which is a more relevant comparison.

    Heck, compare Felton last year to Lin post-Linsanity and Lin still clearly wins out.

  22. johnno

    Here’s how full of crap he is — on the one hand, he said that he wants to play for Houston because he wants to play for a team who really wants him and has a plan for him. Yet, he also says that, during the playoffs, James Dolan — the Owner of the team for crying out loud! — told him not to play because the Knicks want him healthy because he’s part of their long-term plans and, right before free agency started, Woodson had dinner with him and told him how he was going to be the starter and that the Knicks had big plans for his future. Can’t have it both ways. Face it guys — he wanted out of New York and he got his way and he is now trying to salvage his image with NY fans.

    chrisk06811: Here’s my question…..how much better is Houston because they got Lin? are they that much better? I think they still suck.I don’t know how anyone can stare at 1/2 a season and declare that he is flat out worth this $$. especially coming off knee surgery. And, I think Lin is full of shit. I still hate Dolan, but just for everything else. Anyone who hates or loves this decision should at least admit, it was NOT a no brainer.

  23. formido

    If Houston somehow gets Howard, next year is is going to be a very interesting side bet to see if the Knicks or Rockets end up with the better record.

  24. Brian Cronin

    Another reason the Knicks should have re-signed Lin is that they won’t be able to get better than Lin on the open market the next two offseasons. They can’t do sign and trades and they only have the mini-MLE to use. They, in effect, gave out two mini-MLE contracts this year. Both of them were point guards. And both of them are worse than Lin. So this notion that the Knicks can somehow just go out and replace Lin on the open market is, to be kind, incorrect.

    And Lin doesn’t hurt roster flexibility since the team was capped out. Heck, it helps roster flexibility by giving them another contract to trade. And since they are locked in to having a capped out roster for as long as Lin’s contract runs, it won’t affect roster flexibility in any of the next three seasons.

    There are no basketball reasons not to re-sign Lin.

    Now, if you’re Dolan and you don’t want to spend your money on luxury taxes, fair enough. You hurt your basketball team to avoid paying too much in luxury tax. I can live with that. Plenty of owners do that. Robert Sarver famously torched the Suns over the years by not wanting to spend luxury tax. It happens. I can live with it.

  25. Brian Cronin

    And yes, Lin was obviously okay with going to Houston. He preferred New York but was fine with Houston if it meant he got more money. Same exact scenario as Melo in 2011. Preferred New York, but wasn’t going to sacrifice money. Standard NBA procedure. I was fine with it with Melo and I’m fine with it here.

  26. exel

    Here are some more stats as provided by Synergy:

    Player A: Opp Pts per play: 0.86, Opp PPP rank* 133rd, Opp FG Pct 41.6
    Player B: Opp Pts per play: 0.82, Opp PPP rank* 78th, Opp FG Pct 37.8

    Guess which player is which? If you guess that Lin is Player A, you’re wrong. Player B is Lin and Player A is Felton. This is based off the 2011-2012 season. I’m not saying that Lin was a great defender, but by no means is he the worst. He’s actually in the upper third in defenders as the ranking is out of 235 players.

    I don’t disagree on the fact that Shumpert is a better defender than Lin and the fact that it’s a good defensive strategy to put your better defensive guard on the better offensive guard when possible, but to say Lin is a pretty bad one-on-one defender is a misstatement when the stats say otherwise.

  27. johnno

    Felton was in lousy shape for the first half of the year but, for the last 30 games, he shot 44% from the field, 39% from 3, and 90% from the line, all of which are significantly better numbers than Lin’s last 15 games and are close to his Linsanity numbers. Felton also averaged more assists and fewer turnovers over his last 30 games than Lin did over his last 15. I’m not excusing Felton’s lack of conditioning — and I’ll be as pissed as everyone else if he shows up fat — but he is NOT a complete stiff and, for the second half of the year, had better numbers than Lin.

    Brian Cronin: Heck, compare Felton last year to Lin post-Linsanity and Lin still clearly wins out.

  28. nicos

    exel:
    A little more relevant comparison of stats:

    Player A, .491 TS%, 4.6% Rebound Rate, Assist % of 33.3, 19.6% Turnover Rate, 20.8 Usage, .042 WS/48
    Player B, .552 TS%, 6.6% Rebound rate, Assist % of 41.0, 21.4 Turnover Rate, 28.1 Usage, .140 WS/48

    Pretty obvious that Player A is Felton and Player B is Lin.This from 2011-2012, which is a more relevant comparison.

    My point wasn’t that Felton was better than Lin- that’s probably Felton’s ceiling (he was a bit better his last year in Charlotte but a lot worse every other year) and perhaps Lin’s floor. My point was that fan’s were committing harakari and disowning the team over a guy who after getting off to one of the all-time great starts through nine games, put up almost EXACTLY the same numbers Raymond Felton did during his tenure here.

  29. johnno

    Here’s how these stats are misleading — John Wall (or Jose Calderon, because I saw that happen loads of times too!) blows by Lin, the league’s DPOY or Jared Jeffries slides over to help and Wall throws up a wild shot and misses. Lin’s numbers are helped dramatically. I watched virtually every game last year and Lin was NOT a top third of the league defender.

    exel: Here are some more stats as provided by Synergy:Player A: Opp Pts per play: 0.86, Opp PPP rank* 133rd, Opp FG Pct 41.6Player B: Opp Pts per play: 0.82, Opp PPP rank* 78th, Opp FG Pct 37.8Guess which player is which? If you guess that Lin is Player A, you’re wrong. Player B is Lin and Player A is Felton. This is based off the 2011-2012 season. I’m not saying that Lin was a great defender, but by no means is he the worst. He’s actually in the upper third in defenders as the ranking is out of 235 players.I don’t disagree on the fact that Shumpert is a better defender than Lin and the fact that it’s a good defensive strategy to put your better defensive guard on the better offensive guard when possible, but to say Lin is a pretty bad one-on-one defender is a misstatement when the stats say otherwise.

  30. Brian Cronin

    Here are some more stats as provided by Synergy:

    Player A: Opp Pts per play: 0.86, Opp PPP rank* 133rd, Opp FG Pct 41.6
    Player B: Opp Pts per play: 0.82, Opp PPP rank* 78th, Opp FG Pct 37.8

    Guess which player is which? If you guess that Lin is Player A, you’re wrong. Player B is Lin and Player A is Felton. This is based off the 2011-2012 season. I’m not saying that Lin was a great defender, but by no means is he the worst. He’s actually in the upper third in defenders as the ranking is out of 235 players.

    I don’t disagree on the fact that Shumpert is a better defender than Lin and the fact that it’s a good defensive strategy to put your better defensive guard on the better offensive guard when possible, but to say Lin is a pretty bad one-on-one defender is a misstatement when the stats say otherwise.

    Yeah, that was in the ESPN article where they explained all the reasons why Lin was better than Felton.

  31. formido

    Yep. Been saying this all along. The casual knock on Lin is his defense, and it’s so casual because it’s not based on informed thinking, but on cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias. When I ran the numbers earlier this season, Lin was in the top 5 in steals per game during starts. He averaged 5.33 steals/36 minutes at Golden State. Steals aren’t everything, they say, those folks who prefer the primacy of their opinions over objective data. Glad to see Synergy has some deeper numbers, too.

    Someone who can block Derrick Rose twice in one game and pick him twice in one game has the potential to be an above average defender.

    exel: Guess which player is which? If you guess that Lin is Player A, you’re wrong. Player B is Lin and Player A is Felton. This is based off the 2011-2012 season. I’m not saying that Lin was a great defender, but by no means is he the worst. He’s actually in the upper third in defenders as the ranking is out of 235 players.

  32. DRed

    johnno:
    Here’s how these stats are misleading — John Wall (or Jose Calderon, because I saw that happen loads of times too!) blows by Lin, the league’s DPOY or Jared Jeffries slides over to help and Wall throws up a wild shot and misses.Lin’s numbers are helped dramatically.I watched virtually every game last year and Lin was NOT a top third of the league defender.

    All Caps > Statistical evidence

  33. Brian Cronin

    Here’s how these stats are misleading — John Wall (or Jose Calderon, because I saw that happen loads of times too!) blows by Lin, the league’s DPOY or Jared Jeffries slides over to help and Wall throws up a wild shot and misses. Lin’s numbers are helped dramatically. I watched virtually every game last year and Lin was NOT a top third of the league defender.

    That really sounds a lot like “they are misleading because I am sure they must be.” I certainly wouldn’t say that Synergy is the end all be all, but come on, you have to give it some credit.

  34. johnno

    Blocks and steals are not necessarily indicators of good defense. Amare Stoudemire was in the top five in the league in blocks in 2010-2011. Need I say more? And my opinion of Lin’s defense is not “confirmation bias.” In fact, during Linsanity, I used to argue with people who said he was a bad defender because I wanted to believe that he was good at everything, However, as time wore on, I know what I saw on a nightly basis — mediocre point guards blowing by him or losing him by going around picks.

    formido: Yep. Been saying this all along. The casual knock on Lin is his defense, and it’s so casual because it’s not based on informed thinking, but on cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias. When I ran the numbers earlier this season, Lin was in the top 5 in steals per game during starts. He averaged 5.33 steals/36 minutes at Golden State. Steals aren’t everything, they say, those folks who prefer the primacy of their opinions over objective data. Glad to see Synergy has some deeper numbers, too.Someone who can block Derrick Rose twice in one game and pick him twice in one game has the potential to be an above average defender.

  35. exel

    johnno:
    Here’s how these stats are misleading — John Wall (or Jose Calderon, because I saw that happen loads of times too!) blows by Lin, the league’s DPOY or Jared Jeffries slides over to help and Wall throws up a wild shot and misses.Lin’s numbers are helped dramatically.I watched virtually every game last year and Lin was NOT a top third of the league defender.

    I disagree, I saw all the games as well. He’s an average one-on-one defender. What he needs to work on is fighting through screens and picks, which he got caught up on two many times as he’s too big to avoid them and not powerful enough to fight through them. It doesn’t help Lin much either when Amare is the screener’s defender.

  36. formido

    At the beginning of each new year at camp, Mike Krzyzewski sets up the newest fastest recruit in front of him in a defensive stance. He tells him to guard him. And he proceeds to “blow past him”.

    Basketball is a game where the offense has the initiative. Skilled offensive players can go past a single man in defense most of the time. The only effective defense is team defense.

    johnno: However, as time wore on, I know what I saw on a nightly basis — mediocre point guards blowing by him or losing him by going around picks.

  37. johnno

    You crack me up. In a post above, you say, “Compare Felton last year to Lin post-Linsanity and Lin wins out.” So, I give you numbers that show that, in the second half of the year, Felton shot much better, had more assists and fewer turnovers than Lin did post-Linsaty and you ignore that post. Why? Because the numbers don’t back your opinion. I guess those numbers are misleading because you want them to be misleading…

    Brian Cronin: That really sounds a lot like “they are misleading because I am sure they must be.” I certainly wouldn’t say that Synergy is the end all be all, but come on, you have to give it some credit.

  38. johnno

    Obviously the offense always has an advantage for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is that he knows where he is going and the defender doesn’t. And, in the NBA, even the best defenders get beaten quite often. But compare what happens when Lin guards a guy to when Shumpert guards the same guy. The guy gets past Lin a whole lot more easily than he gets past Shumpert. You are also correct when you say that the only effective defense is team defense. However, a team with a lot of good individual defenders has a much better chance of playing good team defense than a team with a lot of bad individual defenders.

    formido: At the beginning of each new year at camp, Mike Krzyzewski sets up the newest fastest recruit in front of him in a defensive stance. He tells him to guard him. And he proceeds to “blow past him”.Basketball is a game where the offense has the initiative. Skilled offensive players can go past a single man in defense most of the time. The only effective defense is team defense.

  39. Brian Cronin

    You crack me up. In a post above, you say, “Compare Felton last year to Lin post-Linsanity and Lin wins out.” So, I give you numbers that show that, in the second half of the year, Felton shot much better, had more assists and fewer turnovers than Lin did post-Linsaty and you ignore that post. Why? Because the numbers don’t back your opinion. I guess those numbers are misleading because you want them to be misleading…

    I’m not accepting Felton’s best period versus Lin’s worst period, true. But that’s reasonable, no? Lin’s best is better than Felton’s best. And Lin’s worst is better than Felton overall. So Lin’s worst is not better than Felton’s best – is that really helpful information? I don’t think so.

    Meanwhile, you’re just discounting the defense stats wholesale. That’s not reasonable.

  40. max fisher-cohen

    johnno, you’re cherry picking stats. Did you know that eddy curry averaged 20 and 7 and was 4th in the league in FG% a few years back? Does that make him better than Udonis Haslem? If you want to compare players, look at all the factors and all the games. After you’ve done that, you’ll see that a 23 year old with only 1,200 minutes of NBA experience already has a better track record than the 28 year old we replaced him.

    It’s the pedigree thing that’s blinding people. Who would you rather have, Ricky Rubio or Raymond Felton? Who would you rather have, Kyrie Irving or Raymond Felton? The answer is plain as day, and yet Lin put up better numbers than either of those two last year. Yes, his numbers fell off later on, but all players have hot and cold streaks, and rookies are particularly prone to the latter.

    Across a 7 week period starting 2/4/12, Carmelo averaged 16.5 pts on 39% shooting, 28% threes. Can I say he sucks? NO, because I’m seeking out the part of the season to validate my point. You’re picking the period when Lin struggled along with the six months (across 2 separate seasons) when Felton was actually good. It’s like saying I’m a better shooter than Steve Novak because he’s had a night where he went 0/4 from 3, and I’ve had one where i want 3/5.

  41. nicos

    Brian Cronin: That really sounds a lot like “they are misleading because I am sure they must be.” I certainly wouldn’t say that Synergy is the end all be all, but come on, you have to give it some credit.

    I’d love to see synergy start factoring in who you are guarding- if they can track every possession they should be able to figure out who you were guarding and how your ppp against measured up to that player’s average ppp. I think 82games just assumes that if you’re a small forward then you must be guarding the opposing teams small forward and given how much switching goes on in today’s game that often isn’t the case. In any case, defensive stats have a long way to go.

  42. Brian Cronin

    I’d love to see synergy start factoring in who you are guarding- if they can track every possession they should be able to figure out who you were guarding and how your ppp against measured up to that player’s average ppp. I think 82games just assumes that if you’re a small forward then you must be guarding the opposing teams small forward and given how much switching goes on in today’s game that often isn’t the case. In any case, defensive stats have a long way to go.

    Oh, no doubt. I totally agree. It’s one thing to say that defensive stats have a long way to go (as they clearly do) and another to just completely discount whatever they say.

  43. Z

    His money, yes… But if it is really his team he should call them the James L. Dolan Knicks, and not give the illusion that they belong, in any way shape or form, to the city of New York.

  44. Caleb

    It’s amazing how completely people have been suckered into a Lin vs. Felton debate. If this were an issue of basketball, like it should be for fans, we could have had them both.

    If you’re worried about Dolan’s wallet for some reason, we could have saved more than half the Lin expense (and luxury tax) by not signing (and overpaying) two mediocre PGs who are worse than Lin (and giving $13 million to Marcus Camby, while we’re at it). Lin is not easily replaceable with the mini-MLE, but Felton is. Kidd-esque production – especially the 2013-2014 and 2014-2015 version – is easily found for the vet minimum.

  45. jon abbey

    Caleb:
    It’s amazing how completely people have been suckered into a Lin vs. Felton debate. If this were an issue of basketball, like it should be for fans, we could have had them both. If it were a money issue, we could have saved more than half the Lin expense by not signing (and overpaying) two mediocre PGs who are worse than him (and giving $13 million to Marcus Camby, while we’re at it). Lin is not easily replaceable with the mini-MLE… but Felton is… and Kidd-esque production – especially the 2013-2014 and 2014-2015 version – is easily found for the vet minimum.

    this is a very good point. while we were overpaying for Felton and Kidd, somehow NJ signed CJ Watson for the vet minimum.

  46. Brian Cronin

    It’s amazing how completely people have been suckered into a Lin vs. Felton debate. If this were an issue of basketball, like it should be for fans, we could have had them both.

    If you’re worried about Dolan’s wallet for some reason, we could have saved more than half the Lin expense (and luxury tax) by not signing (and overpaying) two mediocre PGs who are worse than Lin (and giving $13 million to Marcus Camby, while we’re at it). Lin is not easily replaceable with the mini-MLE, but Felton is. Kidd-esque production – especially the 2013-2014 and 2014-2015 version – is easily found for the vet minimum.

    Absolutely agreed. That’s what I was saying before. The idea that the Knicks could just replace Lin going forward is untrue. This year, the Knicks used the mini-MLE basically twice. Both of them were point guards and neither of them are as good as Lin! They cannot simply replace Lin going forward, which is the key problem with not bringing him back. You can differ over whether he is a “good” guard or a “really good” guard all day long, there is no one better coming through the door and the Knicks let him go.

  47. arthurprescott2

    jon abbey: this is a very good point. while we were overpaying for Felton and Kidd, somehow NJ signed CJ Watson for the vet minimum.

    That galls me. I like CJ Watson. He was great for the Bulls last year.

  48. arthurprescott2

    arthurprescott2: That galls me. I like CJ Watson. He was great for the Bulls last year.

    Not that I would take him over Kidd – I don’t think I could make any argument that Watson is better than Kidd even w/ money factored in.

  49. larrondo

    Is there an equivalent site, emphasizing stats-based analysis, for the Brooklyn Nets? Serious question.

  50. arthurprescott2

    There’s always the TrueHoop network site for the Nets – I think its called ‘The Nets are Scorching’

  51. AY

    I am chiming in to say that I am leaving as a Knicks fan after 20 years until Dolan is no longer the owner. It’s a cumulative thing. Decades of low character mismanagement. Jacking up the prices to a point where it seems irresponsible to go to games. Discarding professionals like Donnie Walsh who wanted to do what was best for the team.

    With Jeremy Lin, the joy of being a Knicks fan was back for the first time in years. To turn your back on that joy out of what seems like spite and immaturity is the final poor decision for me. People who argue about the relative merits of Felton vs Lin are missing the point. As fans we invested and cared about Jeremy Lin and deserved to see the story unfold for good or bad.

    It’s Dolan’s team to do with what he will. But he’ll do it without my money and time from now on.

  52. matte sideburns

    We can cherry pick stats to argue Lin v Felton all offseason long, but you know one way we could have really settled it? Have BOTH players go into training camp together and see which one earns the start. The decision wasn’t either/or. I liked the Felton acquisition when I thought he might be Lin’s backup/insurance, but I’m less keen to have him as our unopposed starter.
    As for whether Lin wanted to be a Knick, there’s another moot point. The choice wasn’t his, no matter how much he might have (depending on who you believe) tried to manipulate it. It only becomes relevant if you believe he wants so strongly to NOT be a Knick that he’d be a disruption to have on the team. I can’t see Lin being that dumb given that he knew that being kept in New York was pretty likely. Hell, it’s what was being shouted from the rooftops as late as last week.

  53. bobneptune

    johnno:
    Stop blaming and trashing Dolan.Lin says that he really wanted to stay with the Knicks.I think that he’s full of crap.He acted like he wanted more than anything to play for the Rockets.If you want to blame someone, blame him and his agent.If he really wanted to be a Knick, he would be one.But he got greedy, overplayed his hand, and is now off to Houston.That’s his choice.I don’t begrudge him his money, but HE made the decision, so I really really don’t want to hear him whining that he wanted to be in New York, it was the best year of his life, he’ll never forget Knick fans…Seriously, I don’t want to hear it.And, ironically, he probably would have made much more money in New York off the court than he ever will in Houston.For a Harvard grad, he sure acted stupidly.

    el-oh-el

    Knicks don’t want to set a market for Lin’s services, tell him to go out and set the market with an offer sheet, he gets the offer sheet and Dolan acts with high dudegon at his “disloyalty”. lol!

    Do you think Houston might actually have a better idea of what Lin’s marketing value is in the far east better than jimmy d?

    and how are the 96 back court minutes allocated now?

    I actually can’t wait til Houston swings a 3 way with Orl and the lakers landing Bynum for Toronto’s first rounder and other trash while taking back a bad contract and they line up Lin, Bynum , pat patterson/Montiejunas at the 4 and Lamb, Martin and Morris on the wings.

    By the way, the Rockets currently have 30M on the books for this year (lowest in the league plus lin’s 5M).

    And , of course, the knicks lost their starting backcourt for zero compensation while paying for the honor of extending the corpses of camby and kidd for multiple year as well as fatty felton.

  54. Juwanaxedqwe

    AY:
    I am chiming in to say that I am leaving as a Knicks fan after 20 years until Dolan is no longer the owner.It’s a cumulative thing.Decades of low character mismanagement. Jacking up the prices to a point where it seems irresponsible to go to games.Discarding professionals like Donnie Walsh who wanted to do what was best for the team.

    With Jeremy Lin, the joy of being a Knicks fan was back for the first time in years.To turn your back on that joy out of what seems like spite and immaturity is the final poor decision for me.People who argue about the relative merits of Felton vs Lin are missing the point.As fans we invested and cared about Jeremy Lin and deserved to see the story unfold for good or bad.

    It’s Dolan’s team to do with what he will.But he’ll do it without my money and time from now on.

    I was on a self-imposed exile prior to the summer of 2010. Now with Lin gone, I don’t mind reinstating my exile from all things basketball. There really isn’t much to look forward to with this team. Everything I needed to know about the Knicks was presented quite clearly during the playoffs. Albeit the team that they had to face was the Heat; isn’t our wish, consistent with that of the team’s goal, to ultimately become NBA champs? All these excuses that the team wasn’t ready, considering health and such, is really poor. The team’s play during the playoffs is consistent with how they played pre-Lin. I REALLY do NOT see how the addition of players in their late 30’s is supposed to make the team any better. If you’re satisfied with merely the Knicks making the playoffs, well then good on you, I’m sure you won’t be disappointed.

    I’ll still check in on you guys here, but nothing much more. It really hurts when you have such a vested interest in your hometown team, only to have to them turn around and completely screw you over in the ass.

  55. hoolahoop

    I think the knicks fan that’s feeling most hurt and disappointed is J. Lin.
    Massive screw-up by all parties involved. That’s my knicks.

  56. Z-man

    Caleb: If you’re worried about Dolan’s wallet for some reason, we could have saved more than half the Lin expense (and luxury tax) by not signing (and overpaying) two mediocre PGs who are worse than Lin (and giving $13 million to Marcus Camby, while we’re at it). Lin is not easily replaceable with the mini-MLE, but Felton is. Kidd-esque production – especially the 2013-2014 and 2014-2015 version – is easily found for the vet minimum.

    It depends on which Lin: the Lin of his first 10 starts or the Lin of the next 15 after that. I don’t buy the “this is cherry picking” defense of what was a very visible decline in Lin’s TS%, WS48 and PER with each passing game. The Lin of the last 15 games of his Knicks career, with nothing other than the 10 Linsanity games to go on (and he shot only 32% from 3 for the whole 25 games, so why should we believe that he will improve in that dept when defenses gear up for Lin and force him left?) People seem to forget that Lin was also no longer getting the foul calls he got earlier.

    Look at Felton’s games #11-35 in his 2010-11 season with the Knicks, which started with a 13-1 run where Amare was in the MVP discussion and this board was going wild for Felton; the Knicks were 18-7 during that stretch. He had 14 double-doubles, shot at a higher percentage form the field, from 3 and from the line than Lin did in his 25 games. He had a 35-11 game on 13-17 from the field. He had a 26-14 game vs. Boston. He had a 19-17 game vs. Denver. He had a 20-12 game vs. Chicago. Then, like Lin, he wore down physically from overuse.

    Felton is 28 years old, not 32 or 35 or 40. Other than his time with the Knicks, he has played on either bad Charlotte and Portland teams or behind a better young player in Denver. For the 2 seasons from 2009 thru 2011, he put up an eFG% of nearly .500, higher than Lin during his time with the Knicks.

  57. Ben R

    There is no evidence or real indication that Lin didn’t want to remain a Knick and he has said he wanted to stay many time and I am inclined to believe him but would you blame him if he wanted to leave.

    This team is a dysfunctional mess, I wouldn’t want to play for the Knicks and James Dolan either.

    Woodson wants to play iso-melo and is a pawn for Anthony while Kevin McHale runs the offense through the PG. The rockets are grateful to have him, the Knicks are more than happy to throw him under the bus. The Rockets offered him an contract as soon as free agency started, the Knicks were more interested in chasing Nash and signing Kidd.

    Why should Lin have wanted to come back? The way the media treated him, the lukewarm interest from the Knicks, we didn’t fight very hard to convince him to stay.

  58. formido

    Here’s a really bad article on Forbes about how dumb Lin was for signing with Houston:

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/randalllane/2012/07/18/jeremy-lin-may-be-the-dumbest-harvard-grad-ever/2/

    On the other hand, the comments are very good. My brother’s an investment banker and I had him read the situation and comment. He doesn’t follow basketball. He’s a big believer in the whole “even when they say it’s not about the money, it’s always about the money.” In his opinion, in this case, even though Dolan is justifying it in his head as punishing Lin for a betrayal, what he’s really mad about is thinking he was getting a great deal on Lin…and then having it snatched from him.

  59. jaredrutledge

    AY:
    With Jeremy Lin, the joy of being a Knicks fan was back for the first time in years.To turn your back on that joy out of what seems like spite and immaturity is the final poor decision for me.People who argue about the relative merits of Felton vs Lin are missing the point.As fans we invested and cared about Jeremy Lin and deserved to see the story unfold for good or bad.

    bingo.

  60. ruruland

    arthurprescott2: We forget that post-Linsanity he was playing with an unknown at the time meniscus tear that hampered him. I think you should just average all 25 of his starts.

    yes, but let’s consider that the Knicks were pretty good during this stretch. In fact, they were absolutely dominant when both Melo and Lin were very average — Felton can certainly play like Lin did during the Woodson/Lin stretch……

    They did it with defense, pick and roll from the pg and great defense— the team is quite capable of doing all these things post-Lin, and I’m a huge Lin fan and will continue to be.

  61. ruruland

    Ben R:
    There is no evidence or real indication that Lin didn’t want to remain a Knick and he has said he wanted to stay many time and I am inclined to believe him but would you blame him if he wanted to leave.

    This team is a dysfunctional mess, I wouldn’t want to play for the Knicks and James Dolan either.

    Woodson wants to play iso-melo and is a pawn for Anthony while Kevin McHale runs the offense through the PG. The rockets are grateful to have him, the Knicks are more than happy to throw him under the bus.

    Asinine. Isola-level.

  62. ruruland

    Brian Cronin: Absolutely agreed. That’s what I was saying before. The idea that the Knicks could just replace Lin going forward is untrue. This year, the Knicks used the mini-MLE basically twice. Both of them were point guards and neither of them are as good as Lin! They cannot simply replace Lin going forward, which is the key problem with not bringing him back. You can differ over whether he is a “good” guard or a “really good” guard all day long, there is no one better coming through the door and the Knicks let him go.

    This.

  63. SeeWhyDee77

    The biggest thing IMO that makes not bringing Lin back is the excuse that Dolan didn’t wanna ay the luxury tax hit. He just made himself seem even more incompetent cuz there have been reports that MSG has made 600 MILLION DOLLARS since Linsanity started. Luxury tax be damned..if this kid can bring in anywhere near that kinda extra income then luxury tax is nothing. Dolan problee woulda been better served by sayin somethin like “we didn’t like his negotiation tactics..it felt like dirty business the way he took our agreement and promise back to Morey and re-negotiated that last year..so we opted not to bring him back as we felt like this type of deal would create hard feelings from the front office down. There are guys more tenured and established in that locker room that may feel like they deserve more money and we feel like we have good chemistry there we don’t wanna upset”. Petty as it sounds, it’s honest..and Dolan may have gained some respect by being honest. Dolan, bein the money maker he is, wouldn’t leave tons of money on the table for the luxury tax would he? And that’s before we get to the actual on court ramifications. Lin could have potentially learned so much from havin Kidd and Felton around. Can u imagine how much easier the game would have been for Lin if Woodson decided to start Kidd at the 2? WHo knows really..but I can’t help but think this woulda been a great chance for him to really grow. He’s good..but out there in Houston- even if they land Howard..he’ll be thrown to the wolves and be forced to grow up FAST. What he did when Stat and Melo were out he’ll be expected to do on a nightly basis. But the competition out west is FIERCE at the PG position. Ah well..good luck to the kid..i’ll miss him but I think we’ll be ok. Dolan just needs to keep cuttin the checks and leave the basketball decisions to basketball people. We need to rename him (in the most cynical sense) DDWDWD (Dolan Do What Dolan Wanna Do).

  64. ruruland

    Z-man: It depends on which Lin: the Lin of his first 10 starts or the Lin of the next 15 after that. I don’t buy the “this is cherry picking” defense of what was a very visible decline in Lin’s TS%, WS48 and PER with each passing game. The Lin of the last 15 games of his Knicks career, with nothing other than the 10 Linsanity games to go on (and he shot only 32% from 3 for the whole 25 games, so why should we believe that he will improve in that dept when defenses gear up for Lin and force him left?) People seem to forget that Lin was also no longer getting the foul calls he got earlier.

    Look at Felton’s games #11-35 in his 2010-11 season with the Knicks, which started with a 13-1 run where Amare was in the MVP discussion and this board was going wild for Felton; the Knicks were 18-7 during that stretch. He had 14 double-doubles, shot at a higher percentage form the field, from 3 and from the line than Lin did in his 25 games. He had a 35-11 game on 13-17 from the field. He had a 26-14 game vs. Boston. He had a 19-17 game vs. Denver. He had a 20-12 game vs. Chicago. Then, like Lin, he wore down physically from overuse.

    Felton is 28 years old, not 32 or 35 or 40. Other than his time with the Knicks, he has played on either bad Charlotte and Portland teams or behind a better young player in Denver. For the 2 seasons from 2009 thru 2011, he put up an eFG% of nearly .500, higher than Lin during his time with the Knicks.

    nice post Z. look, the guy in Denver and New York two years ago was a good NBA point guard. TS is never going to be great, but he’s an above-average pick and roll player that’s quite capable of consistent penetration.

    And his 3 year Synergy numbers on defense….. His only issue is scoring efficiency, but he gets to the rim and makes things happen in the half court and transition….

    He’s going to be huge for Amar’e

  65. ruruland

    nicos: I’d love to see synergy start factoring in who you are guarding- if they can track every possession they should be able to figure out who you were guarding and how your ppp against measured up to that player’s average ppp.I think 82games just assumes that if you’re a small forward then you must be guarding the opposing teams small forward and given how much switching goes on in today’s game that often isn’t the case.In any case, defensive stats have a long way to go.

    very easy to compare players at same position. Synergy is future of stats, not WOW

  66. Thomas B.

    Someone who can block Derrick Rose twice in one game and pick him twice in one game has the potential to be an above average defender.

    I’m wrong for looking at 9 games, but this guy can just look at three plays from one game. Wow.

  67. exel

    So, what is the likelihood the Knicks ship Tyson, Iman, and a first round draft pick for CP3 next year?

    Sorry to change subject, but need to get this Lin debacle out of my head.

  68. PrecociousNeophyte

    This guy

    @TheRealJRSmith: I can’t stand people who are selfish! An I’m not talking bout  @JLin7 so y’all can kick rocks #HATERS

  69. Z-man

    The more I think about it, the more I think that the Knicks didn’t believe in Lin as the answer to the PG question (especially in win now mode), the same way Denver didn’t believe in Tebow. Deep down, I think Grunwald and Dolan believe that Houston did them a favor. They didn’t believe that Lin was a starting-caliber playoff PG and that’s why they were going for Nash, Kidd, Prigioni and Felton. People are making too much out of the loyalty thing, I believe that the Knicks made a basketball decision based on their perception that Lin was too inexperienced and unproven to put at the helm of this team, especially at that price. In other words, I truly believe that they think Felton is the better player, and would win the starting job if there were a competition. So, why bother paying even $5 million per year for 2 years for a guy that you think is a back-up, let alone the potential for paying tens of millions in luxury tax? He would have surely been a back-up behind Nash if that deal went through. Kidd had already suggested that he expected to play at the end of games.

    Also, people keep bringing up the “stretch” provision. Why would you want to have your fallback option be losing $5 million in cap space for two years via a player that isn’t on your team? Those are the years when we will be rebuilding, and we know that $5mill in cap space can make a huge difference in the trade and FA market.

  70. ruruland

    PrecociousNeophyte:
    This guy

    @TheRealJRSmith: I can’t stand people who are selfish! An I’m not talking bout @JLin7 so y’all can kick rocks #HATERS

    Right, what he really means is Lin is selfish cuz why else would he make a post with the words Lin and selfish together…. if he hadn’t put “not talking about Lin’ he’d still be trashing Lin becuz every1 nows that what he mean… I hate JR he’s racist

  71. Brian Cronin

    Unlike Melo, JR’s comments were undeniably shots at Lin and that wasn’t cool. However, I don’t think it is fair to call JR a “bad guy” or whatever (I think a term one poster used was “terrible person”). Good people sometimes say messed up shit. I am fine with rooting for JR Smith going forward.

    That said, that most recent tweet was just stupid. Not offensive. Just stupid. If you have to say in the tweet you are currently making that the tweet that you are in the midst of typing is not intended as a shot at Jeremy Lin, it is not a big leap to suggest that you should just, you know, not make the tweet.

  72. Brian Cronin

    Also, people keep bringing up the “stretch” provision. Why would you want to have your fallback option be losing $5 million in cap space for two years via a player that isn’t on your team? Those are the years when we will be rebuilding, and we know that $5mill in cap space can make a huge difference in the trade and FA market.

    In all seriousness, I am kind of irked that people ignored the stretch provision for days and then it suddenly is in every article on the topic.

  73. Z

    ruruland: nice post Z.

    Nope. Z-Man. Z doesn’t make nice posts. At least not anymore. Only hateful, vindictive ones as he plans his exit strategy from all things Knicks…

  74. ruruland

    Brian Cronin:
    Unlike Melo, JR’s comments were undeniably shots at Lin and that wasn’t cool. However, I don’t think it is fair to call JR a “bad guy” or whatever (I think a term one poster used was “terrible person”). Good people sometimes say messed up shit. I am fine with rooting for JR Smith going forward.

    That said, that most recent tweet was just stupid. Not offensive. Just stupid. If you have to say in the tweet you are currently making that the tweet that you are in the midst of typing is not intended as a shot at Jeremy Lin, it is not a big leap to suggest that you should just, you know, not make the tweet.

    Well, it’s JR.

    But the mal-intent, like the CAA conspiracy, is silly. is/was JR a little jealous of the contract? Sure……Not a big deal.

    this is why 95% of athletes only speak in cliche where intent and meaning can’t be discerned. When you get caracicatured, especially early, the media is going to portray everything you saw as an indictment on whatever flaws fit….

    in this instance, where there is a kernel of truth, media and fans have exploited to use as slander against JR as racist and hateful with a sub-rooom temp IQ. Again, when athletes,espeically black athletes don’t speak in sports cliches, they are stupid.

  75. ruruland

    Z: Nope. Z-Man. Z doesn’t make nice posts. At least not anymore. Only hateful, vindictive ones as he plans his exit strategy from all things Knicks…

    Touche, doppleganger.

  76. ruruland

    Brian Cronin: In all seriousness, I am kind of irked that people ignored the stretch provision for days and then it suddenly is in every article on the topic.

    This board puts out better content than the rags 90% of the time. If it had access, it would destroy most of them.

  77. Brian Cronin

    Well, it’s JR.

    But the mal-intent, like the CAA conspiracy, is silly. is/was JR a little jealous of the contract? Sure……Not a big deal.

    this is why 95% of athletes only speak in cliche where intent and meaning can’t be discerned. When you get caracicatured, especially early, the media is going to portray everything you saw as an indictment on whatever flaws fit….

    in this instance, where there is a kernel of truth, media and fans have exploited to use as slander against JR as racist and hateful with a sub-rooom temp IQ. Again, when athletes,espeically black athletes don’t speak in sports cliches, they are stupid.

    Oh, totally. JR is definitely hurt by his race. His whole career he has been hurt by his race. Things he has done all throughout his career have been taken a certain way because of his race. Heck, George Karl is not at all what anyone would call a racist and yet I think the way he treated JR in Denver had a lot to do with JR’s race.

  78. BigBlueAL

    Z-man:
    Don’t leave, Z, my alphabetalogical brother. I’d miss the confusion we cause here!

    Z has always been unmistakable to me thanks to his Anthony Bonner avatar lol

  79. Brian Cronin

    Don’t leave, Z, my alphabetalogical brother. I’d miss the confusion we cause here!

    When Al mentioned an old thread last night I read through it and I had totally forgotten about XMan. XMan, Z-Man and Z. Yikes.

  80. Z-man

    Brian Cronin: In all seriousness, I am kind of irked that people ignored the stretch provision for days and then it suddenly is in every article on the topic.

    But you brought it up as “if Lin doesn’t work out, it wouldn’t be so bad, we can use the stretch provision to avoid much of the luxury tax.” That isn’t a great source of comfort in what would surely be a cap-sensitive time. Personally, I think it’s a lousy defense for matching this contract.

  81. ruruland

    Brian Cronin: Oh, totally. JR is definitely hurt by his race. His whole career he has been hurt by his race. Things he has done all throughout his career have been taken a certain way because of his race. Heck, George Karl is not at all what anyone would call a racist and yet I think the way he treated JR in Denver had a lot to do with JR’s race.

    Absolutely.

  82. BigBlueAL

    Brian Cronin: If there was ever something in basketball analysis that would reach 100%, it would be the odds of Larry Brown not liking Jeremy Lin.

    Funniest part is Felton’s best season was his last season in Charlotte when Larry Brown was his coach.

  83. Brian Cronin

    But you brought it up as “if Lin doesn’t work out, it wouldn’t be so bad, we can use the stretch provision to avoid much of the luxury tax.” That isn’t a great source of comfort in what would surely be a cap-sensitive time. Personally, I think it’s a lousy defense for matching this contract.

    They have maybe one guy under contract in 2015-16 (Shump and I’m not even sure if he’s signed that long). It will not be a “cap-sensitive time.”

    EDITED TO ADD: In addition, the stretch provision is there only to point out that the nightmare scenario that people suggest of the Knicks being on the hook for $45 million in luxury tax because of Lin’s contract was never going to actually happen. The stretch provision hopefully (and I would argue likely) would never be used.

  84. massive

    Jeremy Lin, in all honesty, wasn’t likely to be our savior. Ever since last February, this team’s success has been tied to Carmelo Anthony playing the best basketball of his career. Unfortunately, he has played his best regular season basketball, but it hasn’t been enough. He’s gone from a career WS/48 in Denver of .125, to posting WS/48s of .157 and .160. That’s a significant jump, but we really need Melo to be at or above .190 now. If Melo can finally put together a season his talent suggests he can (Mike Woodson seems to be able to reach him, so it’s not impossible) along with Tyson being healthy, we can finally be a contending team in this league (like Dallas pre-chip/Boston post-chip).

    And it is weird how well the team did down the stretch with Baron Davis and Mike Bibby manning the point. I don’t think anybody here can argue that Kidd/Felton is at least marginally better than Davis/Bibby. We’ve still improved this off-season. Hopefully, ruruland is right about both JR and Melo having breakout seasons coming, and THCJ is right about Kidd and Camby being great additions to the team. Even if it’s on the way down, the sky hasn’t fallen yet.

  85. Brian Cronin

    And it is weird how well the team did down the stretch with Baron Davis and Mike Bibby manning the point. I don’t think anybody here can argue that Kidd/Felton is at least marginally better than Davis/Bibby. We’ve still improved this off-season. Hopefully, ruruland is right about both JR and Melo having breakout seasons coming, and THCJ is right about Kidd and Camby being great additions to the team. Even if it’s on the way down, the sky hasn’t fallen yet.

    Of course. There’s no doubt that the team has improved. It just would have been better with Lin on the team.

  86. BigBlueAL

    massive:
    Jeremy Lin, in all honesty, wasn’t likely to be our savior. Ever since last February, this team’s success has been tied to Carmelo Anthony playing the best basketball of his career. Unfortunately, he has played his best regular season basketball, but it hasn’t been enough. He’s gone from a career WS/48 in Denver of .125, to posting WS/48s of .157 and .160. That’s a significant jump, but we really need Melo to be at or above .190 now. If Melo can finally put together a season his talent suggests he can (Mike Woodson seems to be able to reach him, so it’s not impossible) along with Tyson being healthy, we can finally be a contending team in this league (like Dallas pre-chip/Boston post-chip).

    And it is weird how well the team did down the stretch with Baron Davis and Mike Bibby manning the point. I don’t think anybody here can argue that Kidd/Felton is at least marginally better than Davis/Bibby. We’ve still improved this off-season. Hopefully, ruruland is right about both JR and Melo having breakout seasons coming, and THCJ is right about Kidd and Camby being great additions to the team. Even if it’s on the way down, the sky hasn’t fallen yet.

    You didnt even mention Amar’e who is probably the biggest Wild Card of them all.

  87. Robtachi

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, fair or unfair, and reserving all judgment on their likability:

    JR, STAT and Melo better play their freagin’ balls off this year.

  88. massive

    BigBlueAL: You didnt even mention Amar’e who is probably the biggest Wild Card of them all.

    Well, if Amar’e can find his stroke again, then we can really make some noise. Once defenses aren’t letting him shoot, he’ll be able to use his speed against some of the slower teams. I’m just not confident in him ever playing like his 1st half of 2011/Game 1 vs Celtics again. I’d love to see it happen, though.

  89. Thomas B.

    Z-man:
    The more I think about it, the more I think that the Knicks didn’t believe in Lin as the answer to the PG question (especially in win now mode), the same way Denver didn’t believe in Tebow.Deep down, I think Grunwald and Dolan believe that Houston did them a favor. They didn’t believe that Lin was a starting-caliber playoff PG and that’s why they were going for Nash, Kidd, Prigioni and Felton. People are making too much out of the loyalty thing, I believe that the Knicks made a basketball decision based on their perception that Lin was too inexperienced and unproven to put at the helm of this team, especially at that price.In other words, I truly believe that they think Felton is the better player, and would win the starting job if there were a competition. So, why bother paying even $5 million per year for 2 years for a guy that you think is a back-up, let alone the potential for paying tens of millions in luxury tax? He would have surely been a back-up behind Nash if that deal went through. Kidd had already suggested that he expected to play at the end of games.

    Also, people keep bringing up the “stretch” provision. Why would you want to have your fallback option be losing $5 million in cap space for two years via a player that isn’t on your team? Those are the years when we will be rebuilding, and we know that $5mill in cap space can make a huge difference in the trade and FA market.

    Finally a voice of reason.

  90. JK47

    I believe that the Knicks made a basketball decision based on their perception that Lin was too inexperienced and unproven to put at the helm of this team, especially at that price.In other words, I truly believe that they think Felton is the better player, and would win the starting job if there were a competition.

    Well then they’re fucking idiots. But we knew that already based on the $40M in payroll tied up in two volume scorers.

  91. Brian Cronin

    Well, I would have been really impressed if they got him for $10 million a year, but $11 million a year for 4 years is reasonable for JaVale McGee.

    The Nuggets really need to find a spot for Chandler. That might include “on another team.”

  92. MeloDrama

    Z-man:
    The more I think about it, the more I think that the Knicks didn’t believe in Lin as the answer to the PG question (especially in win now mode), the same way Denver didn’t believe in Tebow.Deep down, I think Grunwald and Dolan believe that Houston did them a favor. They didn’t believe that Lin was a starting-caliber playoff PG and that’s why they were going for Nash, Kidd, Prigioni and Felton. People are making too much out of the loyalty thing, I believe that the Knicks made a basketball decision based on their perception that Lin was too inexperienced and unproven to put at the helm of this team, especially at that price.In other words, I truly believe that they think Felton is the better player, and would win the starting job if there were a competition. So, why bother paying even $5 million per year for 2 years for a guy that you think is a back-up, let alone the potential for paying tens of millions in luxury tax? He would have surely been a back-up behind Nash if that deal went through. Kidd had already suggested that he expected to play at the end of games.

    Also, people keep bringing up the “stretch” provision. Why would you want to have your fallback option be losing $5 million in cap space for two years via a player that isn’t on your team? Those are the years when we will be rebuilding, and we know that $5mill in cap space can make a huge difference in the trade and FA market.

    Then trade him. Houston has a crapton of assets and would have likely parted with something; they likely part with more once you see Lowry and Dragic off of their roster.

    I doubt Grunwald wanted to ditch Lin. I suspect Dolan was skeptical of Lin’s ability though because I’m sure Isiah and CAA have been pounding the drum. Lin never signed with them, and the last thing they want is to lose the power they have with the Knicks if Melo is suddenly no…

  93. jon abbey

    agreed that maybe the biggest key to NY’s season now is a bounceback year from Amare, as well as a better JR Smith, a consistent Melo, and a competent Felton. I wouldn’t go to Vegas to bet on all of those happening, but I wouldn’t bet against it either.

  94. 2FOR18

    It’s difficult to admit this, but I’m genuinely saddened by this whole thing. It’s only a basketball team that doesn’t even know I exist, yet the smear job that is being perpetrated against Lin (see his twitter page and the clowns linked here from ESPN.com), a player that gave me more joy than any other athlete ever has, is killing me.

    I don’t understand how anyone can support a franchise for which the beneficiary is the proverbial guy who was born on 3rd base and thought he hit a triple.

    I actually made a post awhile back about I just root for the laundry, but I can’t, in good faith and conscience, have any vested interest in anything Dolan is involved in.

    The thrill is gone.

    Fuck you Dolan.

  95. arthurprescott2

    jon abbey:
    agreed that maybe the biggest key to NY’s season now is a bounceback year from Amare, as well as a better JR Smith, a consistent Melo, and a competent Felton. I wouldn’t go to Vegas to bet on all of those happening, but I wouldn’t bet against it either.

    I actually have faith in A’mare that he will bounce back. I think I tend to forget that his brother died and he had weight/back issues. He had legitimate excuses for his lack of explosiveness. If anything, he’s the missing piece that should take them over the edge.

  96. ruruland

    Look, Amar’e was his old self after he came back from the funeral, rip, posting a 600+ TS through the playoffs. Much of that, mind you, was done without a pnr point guard.

    And for all his faults, some of which are exaggerated on this board, Felton is a fine pnr point guard with great rapport with Amar’e. Felton, contrary to some of the NBA mainstream charlatans like Zach Lowe, does get pretty consistent penetration when he’s in shape…..Now, he’s not a good finisher, but he gets there and he’ll be making plays for bigs like Amar’e….

    As Frank and I have talked about the last few months, everything about Amar’e game from last year stayed the same except for his mid-range jumper…..his jump shot percentage absolutely plummeted from his career average, while his at the rim percentage stayed level with his career average. Synergy shows this as well– Amar’e remained one of the game’s elite rollers.

    Also, let’s not forget that Amar’e first half of 2010-2011 actually happened, and much of it should be credited to Felton. Amar’e has always been a great pnr roller, but when he lacks a pnroveral pg, the amount of opportunites in that scenario go down, and his efficiency drops with it as less efficient shots replace the pnr roll shots.

    These are numbers from not long ago: 47 games (pre-Felton trade, starting from 7th game of season)

    27 ppg, 516 fg%, 579 TS on 32% usage….
    No, we won’t be seeing 4-out every play, but there will be more running, and better passing pnr pg play….

    Moreover, I talked about Melo having a great off-season before anything was reported in the media, but it should also be noted that Amar’e is having an amazing off-season…..

    Look, these guys understand this moment… This is a defining season for both of them, and on top of that, they are sick of the embarrasment, disrespect. Those chips on their shoulders have to be taken care of now as they’ve become far too heavy and burdensome to deal with any longer…

  97. JK47

    Lots of rationalizing and wishful thinking going on here. Maybe Amar’e will reverse his long, steady decline. Maybe Melo will have that big breakout season 10 years into his career. Maybe Felton will have a career year. I’ve heard all of this before.

    If the Knicks are going to make any noise, this is the year. Since they have no ability to add any decent pieces for the next three years and pretty much all of their key players are likely to decline rather than improve, it’s kind of now or never. So, in other words, never.

  98. JK47

    Ruru, all due respect, because you are very knowledgable about the game, but it seems like one of your gimmicks is to find one stretch of games in which a player that you want to prop up played well, and then make that seem like it’s the player’s true level of ability.

    It’s possible to do this with pretty much any player in the league. Here, I’ll do John Wall:

    From games 12-44 last year, a span of 33 games, John Wall had a .554 TS% on 25.8 USG%.

    It’s meaningless. Wall is still a really inefficient player, and that is not the true level of his ability. You do these sort of splits all the time– you’ll pick out a completely arbitrary run of good games by whatever player you like and cite his gaudy stats, as if it means something.

    It’s nice that STAT (a really stupid nickname, by the way) played well for a stretch in year one of his contract. For most of his time here, however, he’s been a very big disappointment, a really poor return on investment for a max contract guy.

  99. 2FOR18

    Jesus ruru, the water carrying you do for melo and JR is embarrassing to read.
    As a disinterested bystander, you were a voice of reason during the free agency period, but I question your motivation re: the CAA guys. You sound like a shill to me, not a Knicks fan.

  100. 2FOR18

    JK47:
    Ruru, all due respect, because you are very knowledgable about the game, but it seems like one of your gimmicks is to find one stretch of games in which a player that you want to prop up played well, and then make that seem like it’s the player’s true level of ability.

    It’s possible to do this with pretty much any player in the league.Here, I’ll do John Wall:

    From games 12-44 last year, a span of 33 games, John Wall had a .554 TS% on 25.8 USG%.

    It’s meaningless.Wall is still a really inefficient player, and that is not the true level of his ability.You do these sort of splits all the time– you’ll pick out a completely arbitrary run of good games by whatever player you like and cite his gaudy stats, as if it means something.

    It’s nice that STAT (a really stupid nickname, by the way) played well for a stretch in year one of his contract.For most of his time here, however, he’s been a very big disappointment, a really poor return on investment for a max contract guy.

    Did you see the Caspian article, where he nicknamed him FLAT (Fucked-up Leg And Talented)

  101. airys

    Z-man: The more I think about it, the more I think that the Knicks didn’t believe in Lin as the answer to the PG question (especially in win now mode), the same way Denver didn’t believe in Tebow. Deep down, I think Grunwald and Dolan believe that Houston did them a favor. They didn’t believe that Lin was a starting-caliber playoff PG and that’s why they were going for Nash, Kidd, Prigioni and Felton.

    This may be true, and if it is, FO and Dolan still sick because they don’t have the guts to admit that. And once Lin play bad in Houston, they will jump out and say something like “we knew it all along”. That cowardice make me sick.

    On the other hand, how about Houston’s FO? They must have some faith in Lin’s basketball skill to offer this contract. After all, a bad native Chinese basketball player won’t generate much profit. You can look at Yi, who was a lottory pick, and what his price is in the FA market.

    First time poster, god, I am nervous.

    PS. I am a Taiwanese who studied in Denver 2002~2005 and work in China now. Ruru’s would explode if seeing how Taiwan main stream media color Melo and JR as a bad bully to push Lin out of NY. And how the Internet forum people are 100 times smarter than the media in understanding the whole thing. Well, quite like American media and this board.

  102. 2FOR18

    The strawman arguments are infuriating me, as such:

    “Lin isn’t worth 15 mil a year.”
    “Lin isn’t Steve Nash”
    “Lin isn’t loyal.”
    “Lin was terrible against teams that scouted him.”

    This is brutal stuff to read. On top of that I have to read ruru’s comments defending JR’s and melo’s ignorant comments regarding the Lin situation. Lin is your fukin teammate and you’re making derogatory comments about his contract? That is bush league bullshit. How anyone not being paid by these clowns can derive any pleasure from their escapades astounds me.

  103. JK47

    2FOR18:
    The strawman arguments are infuriating me, as such:

    “Lin isn’t worth 15 mil a year.”
    “Lin isn’t Steve Nash”
    “Lin isn’t loyal.”
    “Lin was terrible against teams that scouted him.”

    This is brutal stuff to read.On top of that I have to read ruru’s comments defending JR’s and melo’s ignorant comments regarding the Lin situation.Lin is your fukin teammate and you’re making derogatory comments about his contract?That is bush league bullshit.How anyone not being paid by these clowns can derive any pleasure from their escapades astounds me.

    How about this one: “The Knicks needed a PG with playoff experience.” That is about the biggest pile of bullshit I’ve ever heard.

  104. slovene knick

    Lin could ba a mesiah(savior of NY again) declining that second poison pill three year offer from Houston….there he miscalculated and Dolan new then that Lin isn’t sent from above.
    Well we all now where Doloan is sent from:))

  105. Tony Pena

    Z-man:
    The more I think about it, the more I think that the Knicks didn’t believe in Lin as the answer to the PG question.

    This is starting to become obvious with the “facts” available.
    1. Since the drop dead beginning or even before (as if premeditated) they let “the market set the price”. (Basically telling Lin, you’re great and all… but let’s see what others want to pay you and we’ll pay you that).
    2. Meanwhile, they proceed to very aggressively pursue Nash and almost had him if not for Toronto.
    3. They also continue to flesh out the rest of the holes in the roster, while slightly overpaying. But, the player we presumed they were interested in, is still fielding offers. (Meanwhile we’re thinking, “WTF? Oh wait, they’ll match. They don’t care about anybody’s salary, they’re in win now mode.”)
    4. Modest Houston offer comes back, the Knicks say they’ll match, “up to a billion dollars!”. (Hey Houston, slight elbow nudge, we’ll match ANYTHING… But we’re also kind weary of the tax implications. But seriously we’ll match anything.)
    5. The swiftness of all the other moves.

    Basically the Knicks wanted to keep Lin, on the cheap. If they baited Houston into “overbidding” them, Grunwald is a genius, and an evil one at that.

    If it was strictly a basketball decision, even if turns out to be the wrong one, they should be applauded. I’m not buying the Dolan tantrum thing, if since the beginning they let the market set the price. Why would he get mad if Lin got a very good offer? They were either really going to match anything, or not match at all. The option to sign him to later trade him or cut him is a desperate move I think. But I can empathize with the pain of losing your favorite player on a team that is probably bound to lose.

    ***BTW, for me, if the devil himself played for the Knicks, and kicked Lebron’s ass, I would…

  106. 2FOR18

    Another strawman argument is that fans are jumping ship because a player who only had a good “35 game” stretch has been discarded.

    Lin is just the final straw for some after decades of straws. He is not the reason, in and of itself, for the anger and horror.

    Sorry, but I believe there is a racial component to this. Lin does not look like an NBA PG. Lin isn’t boys with the NBA in-crowd. Guys like melo and JR don’t take Lin seriously. Fatty Felton is in The Club; Lin isn’t.

  107. Robtachi

    2FOR18: Did you see the Caspian article, where he nicknamed him FLAT (Fucked-up Leg And Talented)

    I loved that one.

    But can we pump the brakes a bit on FLAT’s “long and steady decline”? He had a shitty season in ’11-’12 compared to his normal output. But in the first half of ’10-’11, we were calling him the MVP, and even after Melo showed up, he was really good, albeit on lower usage. We (and I’m assuming the royal “we” here) tend to kill him for injuring himself in idiotic ways, hampering his ability to get back to his typical level of play, but we’re only a little more than a year removed from him being one of the very best offensive weapons in the game. Let’s see what the guy does in his 30-year-old season before we resort to citing one lousy year as evidence of a long downward trend that doesn’t exist and has no precedent.

  108. Tony Pena

    2FOR18:
    Another strawman argument is that fans are jumping ship because a player who only had a good “35 game” stretch has been discarded.

    Lin is just the final straw for some after decades of straws.He is not the reason, in and of itself, for the anger and horror.

    Sorry, but I believe there is a racial component to this.Lin does not look like an NBA PG.Lin isn’t boys with the NBA in-crowd.Guys like melo and JR don’t take Lin seriously.Fatty Felton is in The Club; Lin isn’t.

    Well, Grunwald thought Novak and Kidd could play. Strictly Asian prejudice? I don’t buy it.

  109. Robtachi

    Who’s looking forward to some good old fashioned non-basketball-related escapism tomorrow when The Dark Knight Rises comes out?

    God, I know I am…

  110. EB

    Robtachi:
    Who’s looking forward to some good old fashioned non-basketball-related escapism tomorrow when The Dark Knight Rises comes out?

    God, I know I am…

    We’d never have these problems if Bruce Wayne owned the Knicks… Can we start a petition?

  111. JK47

    Robtachi: I loved that one.

    But can we pump the brakes a bit on FLAT’s “long and steady decline”? He had a shitty season in ’11-’12 compared to his normal output.But in the first half of ’10-’11, we were calling him the MVP, and even after Melo showed up, he was really good, albeit on lower usage.We (and I’m assuming the royal “we” here) tend to kill him for injuring himself in idiotic ways, hampering his ability to get back to his typical level of play, but we’re only a little more than a year removed from him being one of the very best offensive weapons in the game.Let’s see what the guy does in his 30-year-old season before we resort to citing one lousy year as evidence of a long downward trend that doesn’t exist and has no precedent.

    Stat’s WS/48 over the last three years looks like this:
    .181, .134, .128

    TS% looks like this:
    .615, .565, .541

    Maybe he’ll refrain from punching panes of glass, knock down a jumper every once in a while and get back to the .180+ WS/48 range (the .200+ days are long over) but I wouldn’t bet on it. The excuse this year will be that Tyson Chandler is clogging the paint.

  112. 2FOR18

    Robtachi:
    Who’s looking forward to some good old fashioned non-basketball-related escapism tomorrow when The Dark Knight Rises comes out?

    God, I know I am…

    That and the new Breaking Bad are keeping me going entertainment-wise.

  113. matte sideburns

    Tony Pena:
    Basically the Knicks wanted to keep Lin, on the cheap. If they baited Houston into “overbidding” them, Grunwald is a genius, and an evil one at that.

    If it was strictly a basketball decision, even if turns out to be the wrong one, they should be applauded. I’m not buying the Dolan tantrum thing, if since the beginning they let the market set the price. Why would he get mad if Lin got a very good offer? They were either really going to match anything, or not match at all. The option to sign him to later trade him or cut him is a desperate move I think. But I can empathize with the pain of losing your favorite player on a team that is probably bound to lose.

    There are so many viable theories about why this was a good or bad decision, but they’re limited to being pure speculation on what the various parties were thinking. I’d feel better if the FO would give us some kind of explanation of where they’re coming from, but the truth would probably get lost in PCness and cliches. They’re not going to come out and say “we don’t think Lin is going to be any good” are they, even if they did think that. Maybe Grunwald could hack JR’s twitter account?

  114. Tony Pena

    Prob not the norm but a press release would do wonders. They can make it nice and generic and closed to too much interpretation. In that sense yeah, they’re screwing a lot of people.

  115. Tony Pena

    Wait I thought D12 wouldn’t resign with anyone but the Nets? Just like DWill was really considering Dallas, bs.

  116. Tony Pena

    Guess the newly deflected knick fans turned Laker fans will enjoy going toe-to-toe with OKC. Even though Bynum was pretty good last year.

  117. 2FOR18

    Since I lived in Denver during the Mutombo/Rauf/L.Ellis/Stith years, I guess they can be my new team. They have 5 ex Knicks and a couple of others (Lawson and Faried) who easily could have been Knicks.
    And there’s the Camby/Nene for One Knee McDyess trade.
    Lots of connections there.

    Seriously, which starting line-up would you rather root for:

    Felton/Kidd/melo/Amare/Chandler

    or

    Ty Lawson/Afflalo/Gallo/Faried/McGee

    I would bet anyone whatever they want that Denver has a better record this coming season.

  118. JK47

    @133

    Bynum was very good last year, but Dwight is a better defensive player. Lakers were 10th in offensive rating and 13th in defensive rating last year; I figure Nash should bump them into the top 5 in offensive rating and Howard would probably bump them up quite a bit in defensive rating.

    Even if we (ha!) acquire Howard there’s still some work to do because that bench is really thin, even with Antawn Jamison now in the fold for a vet minimum contract. Perimeter shooting is a major area of weakness, big men are in short supply and most of the young guys (Goudelock, Morris, Ebanks) are questionable rotation players. Bringing back Jordan Hill and Matt Barnes would help a great deal but as currently constituted the Lakers are really top-heavy.

  119. Brian Cronin

    Yeah, this year’s Knicks team won’t be a title contender, but I think the odds are that they have a better record than Denver. After all, Denver plays in a much more difficult conference, one that is only getting more difficult with the addition of Dwight Howard and New Orleans making themselves better. In the East, Orlando will be much worse and Atlanta will likely be worse. Brooklyn will be better, but every other team seems to be pretty much where they were last season. So the Knicks improving should get them a #4 seed (maybe even #3). I doubt Denver gets even as high as #5. I mean, don’t get me wrong, I like Denver’s team. I just think the West is just too tough. Memphis improved. The Clippers improved. The Lakers improved a lot. The Spurs and Thunder are still good. That’s five teams right there. If Denver can be #6 and put up a fight in the first round (perhaps even winning) they should be happy.

  120. Brian Cronin

    How in the world does Houston have better odds than the Knicks? Or Denver, for that matter? Even with Howard, they would not win a title this year.

  121. 2FOR18

    Nobody outside of NY and ruru takes the Knicks serious. Though I was surprised to see Houston’s odds. Somebody must know something about Howard/Turk going there.
    I guess a Lin/Martin/Turk/Patterson/Howard line-up is more formidable
    than Felton/Kidd(JR)/melo/Amare/Chandler

  122. Brian Cronin

    Martin would have to go to make any trade work. Heck, I think Patteson would have to go, too.

    It would be more like:

    Lin/Parsons/Turk/White/Howard

  123. Brian Cronin

    By the way, I totally blame myself for getting excited over the possibility of the Knicks having three All-Star starters next season with Lin, Melo and possibly Chandler. I jinxed it!

  124. 2FOR18

    Not sure what will work, but I would take Lin/Howard/ruru/jon abbey/owen over felton/JR/melo/amare/chandler

  125. yellowboy90

    2FOR18:
    Not sure what will work, but I would take Lin/Howard/ruru/jon abbey/owen over felton/JR/melo/amare/chandler

    To bad Howard nay end up in LA since he is saying he will resign in the summer if traded.

  126. iserp

    I want to point out that Dolan might have decided to be cheap when the new CBA was signed, and decided “$X millions are the most luxury tax i will pay”. And with that in mind, they thought Felton / Kidd / Camby is a more complete package than Lin.

    I am starting to welcome the idea of Felton running the point; he was very capable the last time he was here. I think we made the wrong decision with Kidd, but he might still play 15 mpg at the SG. And Camby is gonna be a good backup to Chandler. And perhaps, Lin is just gonna be an average PG …

  127. paullydub

    2FOR18:
    Seriously, which starting line-up would you rather root for:

    Felton/Kidd/melo/Amare/Chandler

    or

    Ty Lawson/Afflalo/Gallo/Faried/McGee

    I would bet anyone whatever they want that Denver has a better record this coming season.

    I don’t know if Denver will have a better record, or fare better in the playoffs, but I agree that their team is the kind of team I’d rather root for. That is a fun team.

    I’m not jumping ship for another team, I’m just sort of detaching myself emotionally from Dolan’s organization and I’m going to try and enjoy fun basketball where I can find it. Maybe the Knicks can play their way back into my heart by playing beautiful basketball with lots of ball movement (and players moving off the ball) or something, but if Melo tries to hero his way through this season and into our hearts it’s not going to work for me.

    It might make Dolan happy, but he has shitty taste in basketball apparently.

  128. jon abbey

    2FOR18:
    Not sure what will work, but I would take Lin/Howard/ruru/jon abbey/owen over felton/JR/melo/amare/chandler

    yeah, you would lose, unless my role was to play earsplitting noise CDs in the hopes of incapacitating the other team.

  129. Starks Is God

    SomeThings fishy here. There seem to be a lot of names that I haven’t seen on this board before, and they’re all trashing Lin. Something’s amiss here.

  130. Brian Cronin

    There have been plenty of regular posters knocking Lin. And this is a big story – we’ve drawn in plenty of new posters that have expressed their anger over the situation, it is only natural we get new posters on the opposite side of the issue.

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